One of the most compelling and important advantages of switching our fleet to plug-in electric cars like the Chevy Volt is being able to break this countries dependence on foreign oil. As oil supplies become tighter and demand increases the detrimental effects on economy and quality of life become clear, as the current oil price crisis reminds us.
However, as a new article point out, the Chevy Volt depends on batteries that are produced and assembled in Asian countries and are purchased from Asian countries. Depending on which pack maker GM chooses for the Volt, its batteries will be made either in Korea or China.
When lithium-ion batteries were first developed, the Japanese firm Sony licensed the technology, as well Asian governments have considered building advanced batteries a national priority and have greatly funded the development of a vast production infrastructure.
Although some of the engineering and component assembly for the Volts battery packs will occur in the U.S., both Compact Power and A123 are U.S. firms, there is only one U.S. company that both designs and assembles lithium-ion battery packs here and that’s Indiana-based EnerDel.
EnerDel has a contract to make packs for Norwegian automaker Th!nk and has recently demonstrated a functional 26kWh pack in a vehicle.
It is estimated that the Volts battery pack will "likely will cost more than $10,000 per vehicle," and this concerns US automakers who are forced to shop for the most expense part of their new technology cars from Asian manufacturers. Toyota has their own joint battery venture Matsushita Electric to produce advanced batteries.
There are also some experts who believe the world’s lithium supply might be insufficient for widespread automotive use, but that assertion remains controversial.
So although we may narrowly be able to escape the impending doom of dependence on Middle East oil, will we be simply substituting for a similar problem of dependence on Asian batteries?
Source (Detroit Press )
This entry was posted on Sunday, June 22nd, 2008 at 8:19 am and is filed under Battery, Financial, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:27 am)I would rather depend on Japan and S. Korea than on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and Russia.
And what is the deal on Lithium reserves, I was under the impression that there were huge reserves, despite the fact that most comes from one, rather inexpensive, source now. And will we be able to fully recycle it?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:33 am)Choose your pleasure; Oil, Hydrogen or Foreign Batteries.
I’d rather be hooked on Foreign Batteries (due to potential cost decreases) than the other two alternatives that most likely will increase in cost.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:44 am)Battery dependency is nowhere close to oil dependency. Just because there is only one U.S. battery manufacturer now, doesn’t mean there won’t be any more in the future.
IMO, the most compelling reasons to plug-in:
1. stop burning gas to eliminate automobile emissions.
2. stop buying oil from people who want to kill us.
3. revive the U.S. economy.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:48 am)CPI has promised to build a battery manufacturing plant in Michigan, should it win the Volt contract.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:50 am)Rumor has it that GM is interested in purchasing Cobasys. Cobasys provides GM with NiMh batteries for its light hybrid vehicles. Also, Cobasys is developing a Li-ion capability and has a relationship with A123 Systems.
Looks like the General is looking ahead about its supply of batteries.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:02 am)EnerDel? From Indiana? wonder why GM didn’t use them, however, they are likely a small corporation with limited production capacity and not enough capital to ramp up without help from their customer (GM) perhaps that is why. Might look at a Th!nk car now though since I enjoy helping out business from my state.
Statik:
I hate to clutter up this thread but in the comments of the previous post I answered some of your questions on how GM jettisoning a brand or two wouldn’t harm them financially very much at all vis a vis the dealer base.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:03 am)That’s an idiotic statement. Oil is a consumable, batteries are a one-time purchase component. It’s like saying that we now have a problem because we are dependent on gas tanks manufactured in China. The problem we have now is not that the gas tanks are produced abroad, it’s that what goes in them, oil, is produced abroad. For batteries what goes in them is electricity, which is produced here.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:10 am)In my humble opinion, this is a no brainer. I’ll take the battery over oil any day. Now come on GM build the dang electric car.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:14 am)Even though they are foreign batteries has GM not shared in the cost of the research and development of the Lithium-ion batteries for the Volt?
I did get my T-shirt this past week and what a attention grabber it is … great way to spread the word about the volt….. I am amazed every day to find out how few people even know that the volt and other alternative fuel car programs even exist..!!!
Thanks Lyle for this site and all the work you put into this…
Voltik
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:22 am)We gotta hope that Bob Lutz is right about what is going to happen with lithium ion batteries in the next few years as he says on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoYnnSKH_6I&feature=user
Bob thinks that batteries could be made using highly automated processes that doesn’t require a lot of labor. That’s very good news. That means once they have the factories built, tweaked, and optimized, the battery prices could come WAY down pretty quick.
It also means that it won’t matter where the battery factories are. In fact, the best place to build the factories will probably be fairly close to where the cars are assembled. It would be pretty expensive to have them made in China and then have thousands of them shipped to America. Batteries are pretty heavy you know. One big reason is the container ships run on diesel or whatever … and diesel is even more expensive than gasoline these days.
I read in Business Week or somewhere that America could have a resurgence of manufacturing jobs again purely because of the increased costs of shipping from China and other places. I’m sure the folks in Michigan and the rest of the midwest will be glad to hear that. Until the shipping industry figures out how to lower their costs of energy, it could mean an advantage for American manufacturing workers. The shipping industry better start looking into diesel-electric hybrid engines or something. That might take a while.
In the meantime, we’ll have lots of new 100+ mpg hybrids like the Volt in America to choose from in 5-10 years. I hear that Mercedes and Volkswagon might have ER-EVs on the way along with Toyota. That’ll definitely help with the “pain at the pump” for all us regular Joes. Things look VERY bright for the prospects for the Chevy Volt and all the new hybrids coming out … especially if those lithium ion battery prices come down fast like Bob Lutz thinks they will.
I think the next 10 years could be BOOM TIMES for the auto industry … especially GM since they appear to have some lead time over the rest of the industry. One thing is for sure … Big Oil and OPEC ain’t gonna like it. Does anyone care about OPEC and Big Oil? Nope. The world will be thrilled when we no longer have to pay an arm and a leg for fuel and pollute the environment bigtime.
Inexpensive batteries and energy storage will revolutionize the electric utility industry too. They’ll really be able to make the grid smarter and more flexible with good energy storage. The wind and solar industries will take off too. They need inexpensive, industrial scale energy storage bad. That, and cheaper electrical transmission lines … which might be coming soon with high temperature superconductors, nanotubes, etc.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:28 am)Many have said it and I will emphasize it. The key is that too much of the oil money ends up trickling down to nuts who would like to put us all under sharia law. We already send much of our money to Japan and Asia (Almost all electronics, TV’s ,etc. etc) Batteries would barely make a difference in this situation. The asians, however, don’t seem as hell bent on spreading their religion to the world and killing the infidels as some in the middle east.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:42 am)Yes, the failure of the Bush administration to create lithium ion battery production facilities seems very odd, since the move would do more for national security than pumping more oil.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:49 am)By the way, as far as lithium supplies goes … there should be plenty of inexpensive lithium for a good long time. Basically it’s wherever there are salt brines or whatever. There’s a lot of lithium in Nevada and California I hear. Most of the lithium comes from Chile and Argentina these days though because it’s cheaper to get to it or process it or something.
In the long run, we can still have plenty of lithium … only it will get more expensive. If we have to, I hear we can get it from seawater. Maybe there’s a huge supply of it somewhere in Utah … near the Great Salt Lake. I’ve even read that we may not even have to use lithium in the future. The scientists might come up with cheaper, more plentiful electrolytes besides lithium. Who knows.
Like Bob Lutz says, if I were in college, I would be studying electrical engineering. There’s going to be bright future for electric cars and battery technology. America should be POURING money into battery research like we did for the Manhattan project. The Asians definitely are right now. We should have a big network of universities and companies all working on battery research … each one working on key pieces of the puzzle. The goal? Cheaper and better batteries and energy storage devices. Lighter, more energy packed batteries that have plenty of power output, are safe, inexpensive, quick charging and hopefully can be easily recycled somehow.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:55 am)Well, I look at it this way. Let’s say we buy 100,000 batteries a year from China/Korea/Japan/whoever-let’s say that these batteries have an operational life expectancy of 7-10 years. What would you rather?
(A) An energy component that you buy/replace once every 10 years that is energized by domestically produced electricity
(B) A fuel source supplied by people who already don’t like you, will overcharge you from limited supply and increased global demand, and will more than likely try to kill you after they have your money
(C) Walk everywhere
…I say take your pick.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:56 am)#6 Morgan
Hehe. I seen it this morning Morgan, before I came here. I couldn’t figure out why it was too me at first…because it was in reference to a post before that post, lol.
Good stuff…interesting find!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:11 am)1) The lithium in batteries will be 100% recyclable and recent studies have shown the world supply of lithium is large enough to meet the challange.
2) Batteries can be made anywhere. Right now it is technically and econoically feasible to build them in asia. Maybe someday it will be North Anerica, or South America, or Africa, rr Antarctica. Sure, why not!
Next topic please…
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:14 am)The dependance we have with oil is from the sourc, raw product, as will be with batteries at some time.
The picture really should be a flag of Bolivia. The Unyuni (sp?) sea, old sea has got half the world’s supply. Right now…there is no production in Bolivia at all, but maybe the US should become tight buds with them.
You could also add Chile, Argentina…and yes, unfortunately China, rounding out the top 4. These 4 control about 12,000,000 tonnes of the reserve base…given the fact the estimate for the total reserve is around 13.5mil, they control, or will control about 90% of the market.
The kick to the stomach of America is that China is a big player, they already have the infrastructure and means to get it out to the market, and out cheap…much akin to the Saudis and oil. Even if America finds a way to produces all it needs….will it snub it’s nose at China’s product at a third the cost? Doubtful.
But that is the good news as well. America does quite a bit 410K (est, these numbers seem to find a way to rise as well). The question being of course is the same as oil. How easy is it to access, or rather at what cost?
A couple articles you should probably read if your interested. Two different sides of same story. (Nice to have both sides).
The first is littered with facts and figures, which is helpful to understand the base product and it’s dissemenation around the world, then goes into the author’s forward looking thoughts and conclusions.
http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1472
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:34 am)Korea is much friendlier to us than China is. Pouring our money into China, as we are presently doing, is doing the same thing we are doing with oil money going to the mid-east. China is no friend of ours. I would rather use Japanese or Korean suppliers than Chinese suppliers.
I hope Bob Lutz is right about the automation of the battery production process. Plus, I think the best place to build the batteries would be in the U.S. close to the automotive plant.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:37 am)How is it possible to call a battery built by an American company like
A123 Systems a “foreign battery.” The battery is owned by a US company, NOT foreigners. The EEStor devices, which will make all other batteries obsolete if they work, is not foreign either. Foreign nations have more to fear from domination by US battery developers than we do of them. Where the US companies choose to build their batteries will depend upon what’s best for US consumers, of whom there are hundreds of millions, NOT on whether a few hundred US workers get a crappy job in a battery factory. As for
other goods, no one seems to mind the low prices we pay for foreign produced goods of every other type of product known to man. Name one product that is made in this country that can’t be eaten. Our labor is noncompetitive in EVERY commercial area, including software and computers, products that we pioneered.
Final point : who cares who controls the production of batteries? Whoever does so will have to provide them to the global industry, lest they be whacked by the international trade commission and lose their patent rights. Which country takes the lead in battery manufacturing is totally irrelevant and a good example of unthinking zeonophobia.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:38 am)The lefties are a riot!
#12 The problem is that the Clinton administration didn’t do anything to create lithium ion battery production facilities. They also didn’t do anything to strengthen the New Orleans levies which would have avoided the Katrina flooding. And for that matter, it’s Clinton’s fault that the Thailand tsunami did all that damage because he did not setup tsunami early warning in the Pacific.
Get real!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:47 am)The American people, companies and workers, can over come any hurdle put in front of them if we work together and do not stop believing that we can accomplish our goals. It is in our national interest to build as much of the electric car in the USA as possible. We must do this.
I want to see GM succeed because that will mean America is succeeding. It is as simple as that.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:48 am)This is silly. Once you install a battery in the car, its good for 8 to 10 years. There is threat turning off the tap of battery like OIL cartel did in the 70s.
If the battery producers do form a cartel and impose a embargo, there will someone else who can make the battery’s.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:51 am)There is plenty of blame for our failure in the past to go around. Government, whether under Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or G W Bush has failed to push conservation, drilling, exploration and God knows what else. We can not depend on government because it will fail us at every step. We must be part of the solution and push for our goals to be accomplished. I trust our capitalistic society to accomplish our needed goals a lot more than I trust government. We must start by trying our best, and knowing that we can’t always succeed, to purchase products made in the USA by American workers.
Let’s roll up our sleeves and get to work, America.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:54 am)Better to have battery power than oil power any day of the week. Let’s just get the Volt into production before Toyota gets the plug-in Prius on the market. Let’s be first for a change.
Worry about battery embargoes later.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:59 am)I have been out of touch for close to a week now. A lot has happened and I see that responses to each day’s post has been staggering. GM must be saying W*O*W. I know that I am. Way to go all of you. I wish us all much luck in the next 2 or three years as the Volt gets rolled out. We are going to need it as gasoline prices continue to rise and our politicians continue to say no to drilling. I know the argument about drilling will not help for 3 to 5 years, but we will still have tremendous oil requirements for the next 100 years. Let’s get started today. Let’s spend our oil money in America. Not overseas with countries that hate us.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:03 am)Aside from Lithium supplies, there is also ‘new tech’ to consider. Will Lithium be ‘the commodity’ for 100 years like oil has been?
Certainly not taking advantage Lithium because it could be a tight market in 50 years, seems like a stretch at best.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:13 am)I aggree with #26 Statik– Its highly unlikely that Lithium will stay king of the battery hill for very long. With the way tech has been advancing in recent decades its likely that a new method of storing power will come to market before the first Volt battery pack needs replacing.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:14 am)Becoming dependent on Chinese manufacturing for supplies on which national security depends is insanity.
In a few years the auto industry will be engaging in a massive transformation to electrification, which will eliminate the national security weakness of foreign oil dependence.
About that time, with the Olympics over, China will attack Taiwan. The threat of cut-off of our access to crucial supplies such as Li batteries could immobilize us.
The Feds need to implement a massive program to ensure the domestic ownership AND manufacture of Li batteries. It’s a national security no brainer.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:18 am)#13 GM Volt Fan,
Two other points to consider are:
1. Lithium batteries are improving at a rate of 8% per year, and
2. Lithium supplements or replacements are likely. For example, here is an article on yet another alphabet soup cathode chemistry that uses a sodium, perhaps with some lithium – A2FePO4F (A=Na, Li) – with an expected increase in energy storage and life cycle capability compared to LiFePO4 (A123′s basic cathode chemistry).
http://entropyproduction.blogspot.com/2007/10/sodium-ion-batteries.html
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:30 am)Unlike oil, batteries are not traded on the stock market, and so the price can’t be increased on a whim or for some dumb lame-ass excuse like future production worries. Also, there are many manufacturers of batteries, which lead to competition and lower prices.
That is why I want batteries over oil.
Saudi Arabia hates the U.S. Where places like China and Japan are somewhat friendly with us.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:52 am)Unlike crude oil, there can be many different alternatives to lithium as the technology is improved and they will use the same distribution and transportation channels.
Crude oil has few alternatives that use the same distribution channels (alcohol and…..). Even hydrogen requires a new delivery system.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:59 am)I think most people are in agreement that buying a non-renewable, consumable commodity like oil from OPEC is not the same as buying batteries from Japan, China or other nations.
If America wishes to remain a strong nation it must insist on keeping a strong international trade balance and security of it’s economy. If OPEC wanted to “get our attention” all they have to do is stop sending oil to us. Look what happened in the late 1970′s. It crushed us instantly and hampered us for a decade. Now that we are completely addicted to a daily inflow of a nonrenewable resource we are at other’s mercy. Thus, we have poor trade balance and no security of our economy. That’s why we are in such a sorry state.
I recommend the following to regain our strength as we move towards a renewable, sustainable future:
1) Keep trade balance. If we import a huge amount of batteries from China we should be selling other things to them like IP rights, airplanes, education, technology, etc. Keep balance and that allows each nation to do what they do best. That’s the way things should work and will allow the world to become most efficient.
2) Have multiple sources for key technologies like energy storage. There should be a minimum amount of manufacturing in the US for security reasons. Multiple sources reduce the risks that we will not be able to move our economy forward.
3) Continue to develop new energy technologies. That will give us the edge and keep us in the best position to compete in the global market. Even if we don’t manufacture the majority of the product on our soil. The important thing is we need to know how to do it and that we are in a position to ramp up to needed levels fast enough during times of trouble like war or international disagreements.
If we keep these simple concepts in mind when we make our policies we will put our country in a great position so we don’t have to do questionable things to maintain our economy. More independence gives more power. Just like a relationship where the wife depends too much on the husband. She is not in any position to assert any power or choice. Same thing! We are the dependent wife of OPEC. Admit it and let’s start changing the situation. Drilling ANWAR and the outer continental shelf or building nuke plants is not going to make any difference. We need a real, long-term energy plan that will help us get back to a strong leadership position.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:00 pm)batteries don’t require daily supply chains.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:13 pm)N. Riley #23 says, “There is plenty of blame for our failure in the past to go around. Government, whether under Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or G W Bush has failed to push conservation, drilling, exploration and God knows what else.”
Thank you! It has nothing to do with left or right, Republican or Democrat. They are career politicians who are looking out for their own backside or the backside of the lobbyists, and not necessarily our backsides. My point is, they care more about themselves than the Nation.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:16 pm)Its like saying that it is to bad that fuel tanks are made in China. Ignoring that the fuel will be sourced locally.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:21 pm)If the Chinese souce much of the lithium, the Chinese will use a lot of lithium batteries, so they will be buying much less oil, which is expensive for them too. Less use anywhere helps everyone everywhere.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:27 pm)If GM doesn’t get a contract for the batteries soon, from somebody somewhere, there’s going to be a significant delay in the Volt. As you all can tell, they are making me significantly nervous with this protracted negotiation.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:31 pm)Two words:
TRADE DEFICIT!
We have to get over this idea that everything we need should come from over seas just because they have millions of desperate people to exploit and we can save a buck or two. You’ve got to wonder these days, if we went to war with China, do we actually have the ability and know how to manufacture anything anymore? I know most people don’t, but look at the country of origin for everything I buy and it is a rare day when I get the pleasure of buying something in America. Think about it, without China, the stores would be bare.
Will we ever figure out that it is worth paying more for things to keep more money at home? What happens in a decade or so when the Chinese, Indian, South American markets get bigger and the American market isn’t that big of a deal any more? What happens when China starts designing their own competitive products and really don’t need us for anything? Will the Asian countries and others stop loaning us money to survive? Will they call in our bad debts? We import almost everything and export almost nothing except bad movies and corrupt culture. Way to go America!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:38 pm)Texas,
I have to disagree that nuclear isn’t part of the solution. Drilling ANWAR is debatable, but not exploring for domestic oil makes no real sense to me until we have an alternative to foreign oil. When we move to using electrons, we could (eventually) be oil EXporters. There ARE no short term solutions for the situation we’ve placed ourselves in, so we might as well get started now. DO EVERYTHING.
JMO,
Be well,
Tag
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:39 pm)______________________________________________________
Great Lutz Interview
The below is an extension to the link find from above #10 – GM Volt Fan
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfBZ0B2dAvA&feature=user
Lutz: “…now you have your Chevrolet VOLT sitting outside with it’s photovoltaic roof maintaining a charge…”
>>Wow, Does this mean that the VOLT will come with a photovoltaic roof ???
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdCLvTFZd6k&feature=user
Lutz: “…we were living in a fool’s paradise of cheap fuel…”
Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYO06ley6U&feature=user
Lutz: “…we can not be preoccupied with the past…”
The interview gave me additional confidence that Lutz is serious about dragging GM to a future of broad EV product lines. Lutz came across to me as a cool cat; the kind of guy you could enjoy sitting down with and having a real conversation. I got a kick out of how some of other GM guys in the interview were trying to “handle” Lutz so that Lutz not let too much out of the bag. I found the interview very revealing.
______________________________________________________
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:54 pm)Regarding lithium availability & mass, here are some numbers……
Lithium abundance – 0.0017%
Lead abundance – 0.00099%
So Li is nearly twice as plentiful as lead, from which most car batteries are made today. Like lead, it can be easily recycled.
Lithium mass – 535 Kg/m^3
Aluminum mass – 2,700 Kg/m^3
Li is about 5 times lighter than aluminum, so as an element it is easily transported …..and even very large Li-Ion batteries are unusually lightweight for their high energy/power densities.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:58 pm)I need one battery every 10 years, and I need a constant stream of oil. Fine.
Plus, there can be dozens of good kinds of battery. I haven’t looked at the raw materials necessary to build a battery, but it seems that it is a diverse set of materials that can be used. There’s only one good kind of gasoline. Also fine.
Also, if this becomes a problem, how many battery factories / refactories do you think we can build in the US in a decade, while I wait for my foreign-built battery to wear out? Very fine.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:14 pm)#41 Nasaman
Your are very right about the mass/power density of Lithium…it is a great resource. The most comforting part for me is the amount we have cumulatively in North America…and unlike our net oil reserves, access is not nearly as hard.
We certainly will be buying most of it from China, thats just the way it works, much like America does/did from the Saudi/middle east for oil. But the price will invariably rise to the level where it pays to produce as much of it as we can at home…and thats a good thing in the long run.
I find it similar to Canada’s oil reserves. We have scads and scads of oil all over the place, but in the past, (unless it was gov’t subsidized make work projects), it just sat there because the cost was about $30/barrel and the market value was less than that. Pointless to produce something that costs you more than you can sell it for.
Eventually the market shot past our cost, big time. Now we have another monster resource making the nation billions, (and if you don’t mind the cold (really cold) winters you can make $15/hour working at a coffee shop in Alberta).
I see the same potential in Lithium, albeit that day is probably along way off, much like oil was, perhaps 20 years down the road.
…and it sure ain’t hydrogen to transport.
Woohoo! I did it…I brought it back to hydrorgen. More hydrogen debate please….so exciting!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:14 pm)One more thing…..
Bob Lutz said in one of these recent round table discussions on YouTube that a 12V car battery has only 4 MINUTES of human labor content and said that’s why their cost is independent of where they’re manufactured. (But he also inferred that because they’re heavy, they tend to be made not far from where they’re needed to reduce shipping costs.)
He also indicated that Li-Ion prismatic cells can be made on highly-automated assembly lines. I believe this is also true of a complete Li-Ion automotive battery, hence the labor content of Li-Ion batteries should also be minimal. (But even if each 16kWh Volt battery included 2 man hours for testing, etc, the added labor cost should be less than $300/battery assuming a labor rate of $150/hr including overhead, admin & profit costs).
I therefore remain convinced that the Volt’s batteries should not cost over about $3,500 each, even in modest production quantities of 10,000 or so.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:20 pm)Gee, the last two topics of discussion have been real bummers.
Anyways, as someone posted earlier, batteries can be recycled and turned into new batteries. Crude oil can’t be recycled.
As for where the batteries are made, didn’t I read somewhere that if LG chem got the contract, they will build a battery plant near where the Volt will be manufactured?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:24 pm)I think comparing dependence on foreign oil to dependence on foreign batteries is deceptive.
First, batteries are recycled. The raw materials will be used over and over again. Most studies that predict world shortages for Lithium don’t take this into account.
Second, the real dependence here is on cheap foreign labor. As world labor markets equalize, manufacturing jobs will start coming back to the U.S..
Third, the countries that are making the batteries don’t have fanatical Islamic terrorists that are trying to kill us.
Fourth, using batteries produces far less carbon emmissions.
Did I forget anything?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:31 pm)43 Statik…..
If we buy most of our Li-Ion automotive batteries from China I believe that would be a mistake. Although they’re not heavy for their size, they’re physically large so they’ll fill shipping containers up quickly. Also, Li-Ion batteries begin permanently losing capacity as soon as they’re assembled, so “just-in-time” manufacturing scheduling makes good sense. Given that the Li-Ion labor content will be a small percentage of their OEM price, I think Li-Ion factories can & should be located to allow land transport to auto assembly plants.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:58 pm)#38 and others
Before we go too far down the path of “how the USA lost manufacturing” there are some other facts to consider:
US manufacturing today in relation to US manufacturing in 1950 showns an increase, not a decrease, and an increase times 7, not just a little bit.
The fraction of the total world output that is US output has increased since 1950, by a small amount, but still an increase.
The fact that most products are more globalized today does not mean that the USA is less of a manufacturing powerhouse. It remains huge. We in the US are much aware of imports, but much less aware of US exports. They also are big time.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:01 pm)Plug-in Cars May Substitute Dependence on Foreign Oil With Dependance on Foreign Batteries.
Are we cripple in this country? Are we not smart enough to come out with new technology? Some people sure think so. That’s the kind of thinking that gets you in trouble. A123System is a US company and I think they are the technological battery leader in the world or does someone know better?
Another question. Who puts these topics on this web site? I don’t think I’ll get an answer but I try to find out.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:05 pm)#49 Joe — Lyle puts the topics on the web site. He does a great job of it, too. We are still reading it, aren’t we?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:06 pm)Regarding manufacturing Li-Ion batteries so they’re land-transportable to automobile assemby factories, as I said in post 47, anyone who hasn’t seen last Friday’s discussion by Bob Lutz on Lithium vs Lead acid batteries on YouTube should take a look…..
http://chris.pirillo.com/2008/06/20/car-batteries-acid-lead-vs-lithium-ion/
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:07 pm)If I recall LG Chem’s Lith battery factory is in Korea, and A123′s would be in China. If I recall LG has also commented that they would build a second factory in Michigan. Neither is strictly domestically owned, but I think the idea of any “domesitically owned” corporation is a fantasy, if it is publically traded.
I am sure that Lithium is already being traded on the commodities markets, but Statik will correct me if I am wrong. So it will also be subject to speculation, etc. But Litihium will not become the new oil for the reasons referenced above (other materials for batteries, lower frequency and volume of use).
Also, don’t run out and invest in Bolivian Lithium companies until you check out the local politics. The US will not be “best buds” with the Bolivian government anytime soon. The current president has close ties to Venezuela, and there is a potential civil war brewing with the southern states, where most of the oil and natural gas is located. Some people there even have funny ideas about the US wanting to meddle in their local politics for the sake of oil. Crazy.
P.S. Why is Carter on the list? He pushed conservation more than anyone before or since. He inspired that great Sammy Hagar song, “I can’t drive 55.” Some even believe that his penchant for conservation hurt him politically more than the Iran hostage crisis.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:12 pm)I’ll pull a trailer filled with lead acid batteries behind my Volt. Just let me buy a Volt so I can use less oil. As soon as the retard leaves office i’ll bet an intelligent leader will make the electric vehicle a PRIORITY!. And battery supply and solutions will be also.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:17 pm)Fred, #53. The retarded will be replaced by someone who has to deal with a “do nothing” congress. The new President will have his hands tied.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:21 pm)Lots of stuff here. OUR governments, at all levels, should spend money on solutions to real problems:
Plan cities for life using public transit.
Plan automobiles to use electricity and green fuels.
Plan for electricity produced by green fuels.
We shouldn’t be back here in 30 years, after depleting ANWR and Gulf oil, looking for a solution to get off of oil!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:32 pm)Rashid@54,
And thank God for that. It’s called checks and balances. Two out of three are working.
JMO
Tag
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:38 pm)I have positive confirmation that Static’s and Tagamet’s medicine cabinets contain 40% of the worlds lithium and if they are caught at the right moment it can be obtained free of charge. Of course if timed wrong it could result in some flying lead.
I’m a teeney weeney bit confident that we could figure out how to make a battery if need be, but then again we could redirect our military to the far east to force the issue. I’ld hate to have all those resources idled without have to peacekeep the middle east.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:40 pm)Tag, #56. Sometimes change it good. Sometimes change is bad.
Someone always gets screwed either way though.
The change I would like to see is a “Manhattan Project” style program for solar energy. So we can charge the Volt while driving it. So we can take our homes off the grid. So we can get off of fossil fuels altogether and just use the sun.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:43 pm)#52 MarkINWI
I agree with your comment except for the Carter part. Nixon started the 55 mph national speed limit. He also told the American Public to turn your thermostats down to 68 in winter nights. He also tried to expand daylight savings time, to save energy. I forget some of the others. I actually think he was the best leader in cutting energy. Ashame that it was so long ago…that we had a national energy leader.
This was in response to the Arab Oil Embargo of ’73/’74. We don’t remember Nixon’s ideas, nor do we remember that we were in this mess before and learned NOTHING!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:52 pm)Koz@57
Stay outta my meds!(g)
RE the last comment, “The Litium Wars” has a kinda Sci-fi ring to it, however given that Li is the 15th most common element AND probably just a transition technological stage, I doubt many wars will be fought over it.
Rashid@58
All noble and achievable goals. I’m sure every generation feels like “these are really exciting and critical times”. Change is inevitable.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:52 pm)#54 Rashiid Amul
“The new President will have his hands tied.”
Hmmm…Isn’t that why the President is supposed to be a leader. I understand what you are saying. It’s not an easy task, but it is not beyond strong leadership either. Of course if you don’t want the government to do anything other than make cuts, you shouldn’t expect much to happen.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:54 pm)A NC newspaper today published an interview with one of NC’s US senators, Richard Burr (R). You recall he was listed a few topics back as having voted against tax credits for electric cars. Today he is quoted as saying “Congress should be promoting all electric autos by providing tax credits” and “..cars such as the Chevrolet Volt are scheduled to hit showrooms by 2010…”
When constituents get upset, views do change.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:56 pm)Koz@61 said – …Of course if you don’t want the government to do anything other than make cuts, you shouldn’t expect much to happen.
You lost me here. Cuts of what? Help me out.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:01 pm)Tagamet #60,
Sorry, I meant your professional cabinet and Static personnel one.
““The Litium Wars” has a kinda Sci-fi ring to it, however given that Li is the 15th most common element AND probably just a transition technological stage, I doubt many wars will be fought over it.”
I was refering to the battery manufacturing in the far east while just poking a little fun at the hawks. I didn’t think this article merited a serious response since it is sooooo rediculous. You are of course correct about Lithium being an abundant element…screw ‘em it’s cheaper to send our warships south…damn where IS my lithium?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:04 pm)#58 Rashiid
Solar power, my favoUrite topic. I don’t think we even need a “Manhattan Prohect” Just get our homes off the grid, then our cars.
All we really need to do is hire the guys at Nike to market it for us.
The tech is here AND it’s priced decently, it’s just a few phone calls away.
The gov’t (both in the US and Canada) have some great programs, (here in Ontario they buy it off you at .42 cents kW). Many state level programs pay for half of your costs to set it up.
We talk about payback on the ‘difference’ between the Volt and a ‘insert other car here’ but the payback is assured with solar, the math is good. All cars are virtually worthless after 5-6 years or 100,000 miles…total investment gone. Not so with solar…you get your ACTUAL money back, relatively quickly, and then it’s all gravy after that.
For the thrify shopper, it’s usually around 10 years, for the thrifty and handy about 8. Then free power! Seems so simple.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:05 pm)drats, no edit button on this computer for some reason
“…and Static personnel one”
“…and Static’s personal one”
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:19 pm)Statik, #65
We talk a lot here about alternative energy. By far my favorite is Solar.
If we could just perfect the collection of it to around 80%, that would be awesome. Then make it cheaply so everyone can afford to put it on their home.
Statik, can you please explain the “U” in “Solar power, my favoUrite topic” for me. I see you use it a lot, but I don’t get the connection.
Something Canadian I think. Thanks.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:19 pm)http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25188772/
“The next major development in the hybrid space is expected in 2010, when GM’s Chevy Volt, a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, is expected to go into production, says Aaron Bragman, an automotive analyst at consultancy Global Insight.
The Volt, which can be recharged from a home electrical outlet, is expected to go on sale in early 2011 and may be worth waiting for, said Bragman.”
This article is worth the read. Quite interesting.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:21 pm)I’ll repost this over a year old article for those who missed it. Martin Eberhard’s testimony to Congress on this very subject of where to produce batteries and National security.
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1245
ps: I think the price of labor in this country to manufacture parts and cars has dropped recently.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:25 pm)Koz,
I knew you were just “funnin”
Statik,
Depending on what happens in Nov, I may be looking for land near you. There’s NO WAY I can touch solar in Penna. – handy or not.
Tag
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:25 pm)Published in the March 2008 issue Popular Mechanics
America’s manufacturing sales stagnated at the $4 trillion mark in the late 1990s. But then something surprising happened. America started selling again—finding more customers for tractors, steel, plastics, knives and medicines than ever before. Manufacturing sales hit a record $5 trillion in 2006, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.“People talk about a doomsday scenario for manufacturing, but that’s not the case,” says Vinod Singhal, a professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology’s College of Management. “The best U.S. manufacturers have become more competitive, no doubt about it.”
Five American Manufacturers Doing It Right: Made in the USA
By Phaedra Hise
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4249332.html?page=1
GM is responding to US customers in a new and innovative way. This is what they can and have to do to compete.
Bob Lutz and GM are doing it. The EREV and Volt are already a success and will be mass produced.
Made in the USA
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:30 pm)# 62 RB
Did you see my post yesterday #99?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:40 pm)Enerdel is the only American battery manufacturer? Don’t tell that to ElectroEnergy. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/13/air-force-contract-to-continue-work-on-high-energy-battery-award/
Not to mention Altairnano http://www.altairnano.com/
Or Lithium Technology Corporation http://www.lithiumtech.com/
Or Electrocvaya (Ok, they’re Canadian, so sue me)
http://www.electrovaya.com/technology/master/Default.aspx
Or, if you believe anything Hybrid Technologies has to say…There is “Superlattice Power” http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/03/superlattice-power-inc-claims-new-ev-battery-will-offer-200-mi/
There are some European battery makers as well. Bollore, for instance, is partnering with Pininfarina to make an EV. Johnson Controls/Saft is building batteries for Ford PHEVs in France.
The only problem I see is with the battery knowledge of Justin Hyde, the original article writer.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:46 pm)MarkFLL # 68. That was a very interesting read. I especially liked the
Hybrid payback interactive they had there.
Thanks for posting the link.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (4:24 pm)For those of you that have written your Senator regarding H.R. 6049 (the Renewable Enrgey and Job Creations bill), I thank you. For those who have not, PLEASE…..write or email your senator and appeal for thier support of this bill. This legislation will be critical to the success of the EREV program. Without the tax incentives, the purchase of an EREV becomes hard to justify financially. We need to jumpstart this industry NOW and surveys indicate that 75% of Americans support this view
Some of our senators (like both of the honorable senators from the great state of New Hampshire) do not support his bill. I intend to get on their case and hope you all will do the same.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (4:29 pm)We put a man on the moon … and “WE” cannot design and build a battery “HERE” for the volt..?????..
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:02 pm)Wow… you mean we’ll have to trade being dependent on a non-recyclable non-renewable scarce resource for being dependent on a recyclable, possibly non-renewable resource?
I’ll take it! And I’ll also be opening up a battery factory!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:02 pm)#26 Statik says
“Aside from Lithium supplies, there is also ‘new tech’ to consider. Will Lithium be ‘the commodity’ for 100 years like oil has been?
Certainly not taking advantage Lithium because it could be a tight market in 50 years, seems like a stretch at best.”
=============
Totally agree, remember just a few years ago NiCad was “the battery” and Li-ion was some future StarWars technology? I am sure battery development is not stopping with Li-ion. They are already working on the next best thing and in 10 years we will all be bitching that the new battery packs for our Volts to get 200 miles per charge are being shipped to CA, FL, NY and DC first.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:06 pm)If GM is smart they will produce the battery packs here so Toyota or China can’t cut-off GM’s supply. If the pack assembly is totally automated then shipping costs should offset any “higher” labor costs.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:16 pm)I didn’t read all of the posts here, but just in case it was already said, here it is again…..
GM is closing plants. Why not build batteries in one or more of these plants???????
Why don’t we keep some of our money here, in the USA?
Oh yeah, sure, it’s probably cheaper to hire people in other countries, thus increasing the profit motive for the corporations and their CEOs, but if we don’t employ people here, eventually, we won’t have any money to spend and then no one will be buying cars. Then where does the profit go?
All large coporations are farming jobs out for the quick profit but in the long term, we are ruining our country.
Globalization is fine, nothing wrong with sharing the wealth, but when everything is made in other countries and nothing is made here, what do you think is going to happen? Soon the money train will run out and it will be 1929 again. Don’t forget your history. – I’m speaking the the CEOs here.
This is not funny. How much money do you need? Is it worth it to ruin the country just to have the fifth mansion or third yacht? There’s nothing wrong with being the millionaire when you’re on top. I’m just saying, how many billions do you need where it’s worth it when the middle class becomes the poor, China becomes the leader of the world and we’re all sitting in the cold eating
stale bread?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:20 pm)#79 LB
You are right on target with your comment. History will repeat itself if it is not learned from.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:41 pm)#79 LB:
It is often not the CEO’s fault. He is merely a tool of the board of directors who in turn are beholden to shareholders. This USED to function fairly well. However, most people no longer are shareholders per se, they own a mutual fund which in turn owns shares of multiple companies.
The fund manager in turn is not motivated by concepts such as “American Made” and “Domestic Production”. The fund manager is charged with one thing and one thing only: increasing the value of the fund (stock price) and doing the right thing (most of the time) by his customer and increase our value. In his mind most of the time a company determines to outsource it is a net positive for the stock price and thus a net positive for his mutual fund.
I agree with what you are saying, just difficult to untangle who is ultimately responsible and what we can do to reverse the tide (labor costs really aren’t that different once transportation and warranty costs are factored into the overall equation, something accountants have been adept at hiding)
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:51 pm)Ok this is just silly. The fuel is not the battery! The fuel is electricity which will be made and produced in the U.S. Also the fact is that we can compete for the next generation of batteries. Remember when everybody said all computer chips would be made in Japan. I think Intel proved them all wrong.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:10 pm)Steven@82
“…Ok this is just silly. The fuel is not the battery! The fuel is electricity which will be made and produced in the U.S. …”
OK, so it runs on electrons, but you can’t hold the electrons in your pocket until they are needed. The battery is the “tank” that holds the fuel, and without a tank, you have a really neat paperweight.
Tag
PS Thanks to all the links to the Youtube clips! I loved the part where Bob says that the onboard computer will be able to tell when “off peak” electricity is cheapest and just plug it in and it’ll charge when it’s cheapest to do so. THEN he says, “go on vacation and keep the car plugged in, so it can charge cheap, and then upload power when it’s most expensive – you MAKE money (lol).
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:42 pm)Ozonelevel @20, Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe the concept of a PHEV was understood to be the key to ending our dependence on foreign oil until after Bush was in office. Incompetent governance is not limited to lefties, witness Fema under “Brownie.”
Have the Democrats put forward a bill to create Lithium Battery production facilities? Nope. The absence of leadership on this issue is disheartening. Neither Obama nor McCain has put forth a plan to shift to domestic energy. We need battery production facilities and we them now. Already we are getting fed the line that we cannot buy a Prius because they cannot produce enough batteries. This is not rocket science, we have the technology, just not political will. Why has the Volt effectively been slipped a year, battery production!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:52 pm)#72 George K Thank you greatly for the link to the E85 location near Durham NC. I’ll check it out. Anyone else looking for E85 might want to check the same site George K gave me, which is
http://www.neare85.com/
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:54 pm)George @59 You could very well be right. Sorry, I can’t remember Nixon.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:19 pm)It is too bad that the major car manufacturers have been in bed with big oil companies for so long. They should have and could have been developing these right here in the U.S. all along. It is amazing at how far behind other countries we are when it comes to developing solutions that would help the consumer and the manufacturer at the same time.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:25 pm)With the price of the “Volt” increasing constantly. Toyota is going to put GM in the grave, and all my vehicles have been GM. To bad.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:36 pm)I hope that GM chooses A123 systems, rather then LG Chem (compact power).
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:37 pm)#88 Fred
Initial pricing (for 2010) seems to reflect mostly a situation with high demand and a low initial supply. After batteries become more plentiful and some of the early adopters get their cars, prices are likely to decline, as they do with most other high tech items. Neither Toyota nor GM has a plug-in car for sale yet, so hang in there and let’s see what happens. Too much still is changing to have any real idea of what’s going to happen with prices or numbers of cars.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:42 pm)nasaman: #44
“He also indicated that Li-Ion prismatic cells can be made on highly-automated assembly lines. I believe this is also true of a complete Li-Ion automotive battery, hence the labor content of Li-Ion batteries should also be minimal. (But even if each 16kWh Volt battery included 2 man hours for testing, etc, the added labor cost should be less than $300/battery assuming a labor rate of $150/hr including overhead, admin & profit costs).
I therefore remain convinced that the Volt’s batteries should not cost over about $3,500 each, even in modest production quantities of 10,000 or so.”
I agree that a Volt battery pack could be produced for $3500, and produced in America. There is one thing that you seem to be overlooking, however. That ‘prismatic’ battery cell is a CPI cell, not the one made by A123. I posted in an earlier thread about this CPI layered technology. It can be manufactured on a highly automated assembly line with a minumim of human labor, thus making the prospect of a US production plant near the Volt factory a real advantage. The factory itself will be more expensive to build in the US simply because of construction costs are higher in the US verses China. The problem is of energy density with the CPI tech. The energy density of their cell per pound (or kilogram) is about half of what it is with the A123 cells. CPI projects they can buid a low cost battery pack for the Volt, possibly less than $3000, but it will only have around a 8-10 kWh capacity. This is the battery pack for the 20-mile AER version of the Volt. At the present time, the A123 battery pack with 16 kWh of capacity is projected to cost well over $10,000. Altairnano also produces a Li-Ion with a simiar energy density to the A123 battery, but it is even more expensive to manufacture than A123′s cell.
Who knows what will happen the the future. Maybe CPI can increase the energy density of their cell without adding to production costs. Maybe A123 can find a way to produce their cell, which is already in mass production, at a more reasonable cost in the future. Maybe either one, or both, can do this by the time the Volt goes on sale. That is why I think GM should sign contracts with both battery makers. I, like everyone else, would prefer to have as much AER range as possible. My minimum needs are less than some of the Volt supporters though. I don’t commute 35 to 70 miles per day to work. 20 miles AER would be a great help to me and my neighbors as 90% of us drive less than 20 miles to work and back. For us, it does not make sense to pay $10,000 more for an additional 20 miles of range. Most of our driving is on congested city streets where we spend as much time with our vehicles idling at a traffic light, or stop-and-go driving, as we do at 50 mph. Regenerative braking should extend our AER range to well above what constant speed highway driving would achieve.
In short GM, build the Volt with both battery options, a cheaper 20 mile battery pack for those that only require that range, and the 40 mile AER battery pack for those that need all the range they can get.
Here is a link to some specs and technology that CPI is proposing for their battery pack:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2008/energy_storage/merit08_alamgir.pdf
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:47 pm)Basic math will help supply the answer, and the final manufacturing destination the other.
50% of all cars are made overseas and rising.
AUTO COST: $35K Average
60% of all fuel is pumped from overseas: FUEL COST: $50K on average (twelve year expected life of auto)
CHEVY VOLT
LG Chem intends setting up a battery plant in Detroit if winning. The car itself is made in H Michigan
CHEVY COST: $40K
FUEL COST: $16K over twelve years, all sourced from America.
(BATTERY COST: $10K if overseas, then recycled and manufactured here in the USA)
This is good for America, slice it however one wishes.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:49 pm)#87 Jkh:
Not sure what you mean….the US is the technology leader in green technologies and alternative fuels. Solar? US is the leader in the tech (nanosolar’s production method just passed 1GW of production…that is truly a milestone) Wind? yep. US is first. Ethanol and Bio Diesel? getting there…we are pioneering the cellulosic and algea based production methods. Hydrogen? (*wave at Statik*) GM is the first with a prototype fleet out there.
Offhand there are only three critical areas of research the US is NOT the world leader in: High Energy Particle Physics, Robotics, and we are slipping in Biotech.
(however, on the high energy particle physics we may retake the lead if EMC2 and Dr. Nebel come out of peer review with the Polywell WB-7 this winter with flying colors)
GM is pioneering the serial hybrid. Based on economic factors someone else could be first to market with it but without GM parallel hybrids would (and still could) be our future for a long time.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:52 pm)CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED.
Go GM. Stick it to the Shiekdoms who hate our American values.
As a retired US Air Force veteran, I’m prayful to the day we end this monopolistic addiction which if not undone, will lead to a massive war over a rapidly declining resource. Electricity is the safest bet. Generate electricity by solar, wind, nuclear, oil, gas, biomass, wood pulp, heat to energy plants, darn near anything with motion, heat, energy, or movement to transfer.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:57 pm)#91 57Silver says “In short GM, build the Volt with both battery options, a cheaper 20 mile battery pack for those that only require that range, and the 40 mile AER battery pack for those that need all the range they can get.”
I like the sound of this but wonder if there are complications. After all, the auto-size battery is not yet a standard item. I can imagine differences in the way electrical connections are made, the cooling system interacts with the car, actual physical size and weight, battery metering is done, etc, and all will make it harder and take longer to have a car design that allows either to be used.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:27 pm)RB, that is the point though. The CPI battery pack is the same physical size and near identical weight as the A123 battery pack. Because the energy density is less in CPI’s battery pack, it will only store about half as much energy, 8 kWh instead of 16 kWh. However, the cost per kilowatt hour of the CPI pack is less than half the cost of the A123 pack. Instead of the 8 kWk CPI pack costing half the 16 kWh A123 pack, it cost less than 1/4 to manufacture. Either brand battery pack will fit in the Volt without physically changing the Volt design. The ‘cooling’ of the battery packs is self contained within the packs themselves, not supplied by the car. There will probably be a difference in the computer software that is optimal for each battery pack, but should not need anything that could not be handled by a flash change in the programming.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:34 pm)#96 57silver Interesting points; thank you.
Knowing what you’ve said, I can’t help but wonder if designing for both, with the CPI pack half capacity but a fourth the price, is somehow related to the lower range “Volt20″ mentioned by Mr Posawatz a few topics back.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:59 pm)Sorry, I don’t see any connection between foreign made batteries and relying on consumable mid east oil.
Lyle, please make that call to your GM contact and get us something to chew on WRT the Volt. Personally I’m curious about that LCD, are there two or is the display split….and what functions will it have? Whatever that phone call yields, please let it be about the Volt.
thanks
Grizzly
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:42 pm)I’m sorry to say, but this is the stupidest post I’ve ever seen on this site, and I’ve been reading it for more than a year. Dependence (not dependance) on foreign batteries? Give me a break. America has the world’s most advanced industrial infrastructure, and if war were to simultaneously break out with China, Japan and Korea, it could just build its own batteries. It can’t just manufacture its own oil. And the idea that car batteries will ever be as important to running the American economy as oil is plainly ludicrous. Out of batteries? Make do with the ones you have until you can build some. Out of oil? Everything grinds to a halt.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:17 pm)silver,
Where did you get the info that the battery cooling is within the battery? When they were bench testing the first few, they were monitoring thebattery heat *without* a cooling system.
Be well,
Tag
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:22 pm)#67 Rashiid
“Statik, can you please explain the “U” in “Solar power, my favoUrite topic” for me. I see you use it a lot, but I don’t get the connection.
Something Canadian I think. Thanks.”
Yes, something Canadian. Specifically Canadian spelling. Canadian is kind of a hybrid between American english and British English.
You see it in most in french based words that in American english end with ‘or’ and ‘er’, such as color or center. In Canada, they retain British spellings (colour, honour and centre).
Not all words are based as such. Canada’s auto industry has been dominated by American players which explains why we use tire and curb, which is at odds with British english of British English are spelled tyre and kerb. (Thanks W)
I don’t know why I capitalize it, maybe so people don’t think I’m misspelling all the time, either they know it’s Canadian or they think it’s some kind of inside joke. It’s amazing how many things do not translate across the border…I think I found out all of them going to school/playing ball in the states.
Somethings just don’t translate all the time.
‘Z’ is pronounced zed.
A chesterfield is a couch or sofa.
We start sentences like “As well”, in the sense of “in addition.”
We use the word eavestrough instead of rain gutter, which is not something you hear alot of in the south states.
Even hydro, which is electrical power to us sometimes doesn’t ring true.
I’ll give you a couple more just for fun:
Pogie (unemployment insurace)
Toque (knitted hat)
Pop (soda)
Back bacon (Canadian bacon)
Interac-Debit-ABM
Cutlery (silverware)
Double double (how I like my coffee)
Poutine (french fries with gravy and cheese)
etc. etc.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:28 pm)Statik,
And all this time I thought you were just sayinng something was your “Fave – You – Right”.
Thanks for the schooling.
BTW, down here we call that last one, Poutine (french fries with gravy and cheese) “blood-sludge”
Tag
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:53 pm)Tagamet, how else could you liquid cool a Volt battery pack, other than have the cooling components inside the pack? Of course, the same ‘cooling’ system will be used to heat the battery pack in cold weather. Here is a cut and paste where CPI has already tested the cooling system in the third gen battery pack.
“CPI Chief Executive Prabhakar Patil told Reuters it has made a third-generation Volt battery prototype and demonstrated that key elements of the 400-pound (180-kg) power supply — including a liquid cooling system — work as planned.”
http://www.forbes.com/reuters/feeds/reuters/2008/06/06/2008-06-06T234015Z_01_N06433312_RTRIDST_0_LGCHEM-VOLT-INTERVIEW.html
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:08 pm)Silver,
Thanks for the link. I HATE the talk of leasing the battery though! That’s one of the very few deal killers for me. It may not happen, so I remain hopeful (much to Statik’s chagrin).
I do know that the early bench testing was without a functioning cooling system, but it could have been built in and just not used intitially to guage heat buildup or the temp sensors efficiency.
Be well,
Tag
Jun 22nd, 2008 (11:48 pm)Sorry if someone has already pointed this out… but Lyle in your base post you wrote “… being able to break this countries dependence on foreign oil …”
That should read “being able to break this countries dependence on FOSSIL FUELS” (that includes both foreign and domestic!).
Supercapictors may still have a break through….
Jun 23rd, 2008 (3:44 am)There are several American lithium ion battery makers besides Enerdel.
ElectroEnergy, Altairnano, etc
Jun 23rd, 2008 (6:31 am)Statik # 101. Thank you for the explanation. The upper case U threw me off. I have spent enough time in England to know that English and American are the exact same thing only different (oxymoron).
Jun 23rd, 2008 (7:54 am)We should drill here for our own because oil is used in many places besides, cars. Just because some cars switch to electric does not mean we are not oil dependant. We need to have batteries, hydrogen, nuclear, solar power generators (solar tower project like)and more local oil drilling for true energy independence.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (8:09 am)#105 Jeff M
“Sorry if someone has already pointed this out… but Lyle in your base post you wrote “… being able to break this countries dependence on foreign oil …” ”
“That should read “being able to break this countries dependence on FOSSIL FUELS” (that includes both foreign and domestic!).”
It is also not so good on the english. (As long as we are on the subject)
Jun 23rd, 2008 (8:35 am)Statik #109. and Jeff M #105. Since we are splitting hairs, you are both wrong. Countries is plural. Country’s is singular possessive. This is the form that should have been used when talking about this country’s dependence on oil.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (8:39 am)And English is capitaized.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (9:24 am)FWIW: Lithium can be extracted as a byproduct of the brine output of desalination plants.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (11:56 am)AME regarding drilling “here” for more oil… see http://tinyurl.com/6cy8xh …. once again… we can drill to our hearts content, but even if we did, the extra supply would only drop the price at the pump by a couple pennies a gallon. Remember it’s a global market that set’s prices. And the reason is clear when you realize that the “the U.S. has an estimated 3% of global petroleum reserves but consumes 24% of the world’s oil”.
And by the way, we can hopefully work to replace the other petro uses with bio oils. We already have bio plastics, etc replacing petro based ones.
ps to Rashiid: regarding countries… I was just cut/pasting from Lyle’s base post and was correcting a technical error of his, not here to correct his gramical errors
Jun 23rd, 2008 (11:58 am)Hmm, sorry for this test message… but I just twice tried to post and it didn’t show up… and I didn’t receive any message about it being blocked for moderation.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (11:59 am)Post 91, 57silver…….
Sorry I’m late seeing your comments (my broadband has been down since yesterday afternoon).
GM (Lutz & others) have repeatedly said that the first battery packs from CPI have, without exception, met ALL specifications. This would mean all energy density AND power density specs, right?
More recently, Lutz has also announced that the Volt Mules (most or all powered by LG/CPI packs) have met all expectations, including a 40-mile range. Is there a disconnect here or is GM/Lutz giving out misleading information concerning the LG/CPI packs????
Jun 23rd, 2008 (3:47 pm)#29 Northern Piker
The fluorophosphate cathode chemistry looks particularly promising – in fact, there is a patent assigned to Valence Technology for a Alkali Metal – Transition Metal Fluorophosphate that seems to cover just about every base as far as the constituents of the battery is concerned. The patent number is 7214448 and can be downloaded using http://www.pat2pdf.org, if you’re interested.
Add to that the promise of the silicon nanowire anodes, and I think we will see really impressive improvements in Alkali-Ion batteries in the near future.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (4:50 pm)nasaman-
I’m not silver, but I believe he was referring to the CPI layered technology, which has the potential of cheap Li-ion battery manufacture. Unfortunately that is the one that produces about half the energy density for the same size battery pack, which leads to the speculation if that was the 20 mpc battery option advanced by GM as an economical Volt alternative.
Obviously, this isn’t the technology supplied by CPI for the Volt battery tests in progress, hence the high cost issue for both 40 mpc battery pack bidders.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (7:09 pm)85 Morgan
Yes – you are right, the CEO works for the Board of Directors and they are working for the shareholders. But in most large American companies, The Board of Directors, the CEO and the CFO, even though they are a relatively few number of people holding the company shares, are holding most of the shares. The large numbers of remaining shareholders are holding a relatively small percentage of the stocks. They are getting extremely rich while the rest struggle to buy a gallon of gas.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (11:54 pm)nasaman @ # 116,
I am not sure exactly what is going on nasaman. I have read, as in the link I furnished, that CPI has more than one cell construction method. I still think, but do not know for certain, that the cell with the least expensive manufacturing procedure has a lower energy density than the 3rd gen pack that has recently been tested. The cell that was estimated to be relatively inexpensive to produce only had an energy density of 65 watt-hours/kg, verses 130 wh/kg and better for some of the more expensive technologies. Possibly CPI will get a contract for both battery packs, I don’t know.
I haven’t found much public info on the A123 pack, or if they also have two or more configurations. I was mistaken to assume CPI was the only one to use the ‘prismatic’, or layered, construction method though. I read another article that stated A123′s cells were about the size of three decks of cards placed side by side, and were also a layered, flat cell. At least one of CPI’s cells, maybe both, are stated to be about the size of a paperback book. I would imagine a lot of cost differences would be in the method, and materials, used in building the anodes and cathods, plus how complicated the battery pack is to cool sufficiently.
The US Department of Energy’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory has teamed up with A123 to improve their thermal management system in the battery pack:
“We’re pleased to be working with A123Systems on thermal management of their advanced nanophosphate-based lithium ion batteries,” NREL Principal Engineer Ahmad Pesaran said. “Batteries with improved thermal behavior are critical for widespread acceptance of affordable hybrid-electric vehicles that consume less fuel and reduced harmful emissions.”
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=18503
As for as the cost of ‘most’ Li-Ion packs go, I still keep seeing estimates of $10,000 to $15,000:
“But the cost of the batteries is an issue at Toyota. Hanson would say only that the automaker expects them to cost more than the roughly $3,000 to replace the nickel-metal-hydride batteries in the Prius.
But Paul Boskovitch, chief engineer of hybrid systems for auto supplier Ricardo Inc., ventures that lithium-ion batteries needed to power a vehicle now run $10,000 to $15,000, which would make such a vehicle price prohibitive.”
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.ml.batteries22jun22,0,4641906.story
Jun 24th, 2008 (5:18 am)the whole premise is wrong.. It is not foreign oil vs. foreign batteries. Rather it is imported natural resources vs. imported finished goods (mainly a function of labor). The batteries may be manufactured anywhere including USA, and can be dual / triple sourced to prevent “dependency” in the sense that they are talking about.
The article reads like a rather poor apology for the ICE.
Jun 24th, 2008 (5:37 pm)#113 Michael S says “FWIW: Lithium can be extracted as a byproduct of the brine output of desalination plants.”
An extremely important point. Thank you. It means lithium can come, for example, from the Tampa FL water supply.
Jul 25th, 2009 (7:26 pm)Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world.