Plug-in Cars May Substitute Dependence on Foreign Oil With Dependance on Foreign Batteries
One of the most compelling and important advantages of switching our fleet to plug-in electric cars like the Chevy Volt is being able to break this countries dependence on foreign oil. As oil supplies become tighter and demand increases the detrimental effects on economy and quality of life become clear, as the current oil price crisis reminds us.
However, as a new article point out, the Chevy Volt depends on batteries that are produced and assembled in Asian countries and are purchased from Asian countries. Depending on which pack maker GM chooses for the Volt, its batteries will be made either in Korea or China.
When lithium-ion batteries were first developed, the Japanese firm Sony licensed the technology, as well Asian governments have considered building advanced batteries a national priority and have greatly funded the development of a vast production infrastructure.
Although some of the engineering and component assembly for the Volts battery packs will occur in the U.S., both Compact Power and A123 are U.S. firms, there is only one U.S. company that both designs and assembles lithium-ion battery packs here and that’s Indiana-based EnerDel.
EnerDel has a contract to make packs for Norwegian automaker Th!nk and has recently demonstrated a functional 26kWh pack in a vehicle.
It is estimated that the Volts battery pack will "likely will cost more than $10,000 per vehicle," and this concerns US automakers who are forced to shop for the most expense part of their new technology cars from Asian manufacturers. Toyota has their own joint battery venture Matsushita Electric to produce advanced batteries.
There are also some experts who believe the world’s lithium supply might be insufficient for widespread automotive use, but that assertion remains controversial.
So although we may narrowly be able to escape the impending doom of dependence on Middle East oil, will we be simply substituting for a similar problem of dependence on Asian batteries?
Source (Detroit Press )
Popularity: 5%
(4 votes, average: 4.5 out of 5) 
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June 22nd, 2008 at 8:27 am
I would rather depend on Japan and S. Korea than on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and Russia.
And what is the deal on Lithium reserves, I was under the impression that there were huge reserves, despite the fact that most comes from one, rather inexpensive, source now. And will we be able to fully recycle it?
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 am
Choose your pleasure; Oil, Hydrogen or Foreign Batteries.
I’d rather be hooked on Foreign Batteries (due to potential cost decreases) than the other two alternatives that most likely will increase in cost.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:44 am
Battery dependency is nowhere close to oil dependency. Just because there is only one U.S. battery manufacturer now, doesn’t mean there won’t be any more in the future.
IMO, the most compelling reasons to plug-in:
1. stop burning gas to eliminate automobile emissions.
2. stop buying oil from people who want to kill us.
3. revive the U.S. economy.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:48 am
CPI has promised to build a battery manufacturing plant in Michigan, should it win the Volt contract.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:50 am
Rumor has it that GM is interested in purchasing Cobasys. Cobasys provides GM with NiMh batteries for its light hybrid vehicles. Also, Cobasys is developing a Li-ion capability and has a relationship with A123 Systems.
Looks like the General is looking ahead about its supply of batteries.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:02 am
EnerDel? From Indiana? wonder why GM didn’t use them, however, they are likely a small corporation with limited production capacity and not enough capital to ramp up without help from their customer (GM) perhaps that is why. Might look at a Th!nk car now though since I enjoy helping out business from my state.
Statik:
I hate to clutter up this thread but in the comments of the previous post I answered some of your questions on how GM jettisoning a brand or two wouldn’t harm them financially very much at all vis a vis the dealer base.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:03 am
That’s an idiotic statement. Oil is a consumable, batteries are a one-time purchase component. It’s like saying that we now have a problem because we are dependent on gas tanks manufactured in China. The problem we have now is not that the gas tanks are produced abroad, it’s that what goes in them, oil, is produced abroad. For batteries what goes in them is electricity, which is produced here.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:10 am
In my humble opinion, this is a no brainer. I’ll take the battery over oil any day. Now come on GM build the dang electric car.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:14 am
Even though they are foreign batteries has GM not shared in the cost of the research and development of the Lithium-ion batteries for the Volt?
I did get my T-shirt this past week and what a attention grabber it is … great way to spread the word about the volt….. I am amazed every day to find out how few people even know that the volt and other alternative fuel car programs even exist..!!!
Thanks Lyle for this site and all the work you put into this…
Voltik
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:22 am
We gotta hope that Bob Lutz is right about what is going to happen with lithium ion batteries in the next few years as he says on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoYnnSKH_6I&feature=user
Bob thinks that batteries could be made using highly automated processes that doesn’t require a lot of labor. That’s very good news. That means once they have the factories built, tweaked, and optimized, the battery prices could come WAY down pretty quick.
It also means that it won’t matter where the battery factories are. In fact, the best place to build the factories will probably be fairly close to where the cars are assembled. It would be pretty expensive to have them made in China and then have thousands of them shipped to America. Batteries are pretty heavy you know. One big reason is the container ships run on diesel or whatever … and diesel is even more expensive than gasoline these days.
I read in Business Week or somewhere that America could have a resurgence of manufacturing jobs again purely because of the increased costs of shipping from China and other places. I’m sure the folks in Michigan and the rest of the midwest will be glad to hear that. Until the shipping industry figures out how to lower their costs of energy, it could mean an advantage for American manufacturing workers. The shipping industry better start looking into diesel-electric hybrid engines or something. That might take a while.
In the meantime, we’ll have lots of new 100+ mpg hybrids like the Volt in America to choose from in 5-10 years. I hear that Mercedes and Volkswagon might have ER-EVs on the way along with Toyota. That’ll definitely help with the “pain at the pump” for all us regular Joes. Things look VERY bright for the prospects for the Chevy Volt and all the new hybrids coming out … especially if those lithium ion battery prices come down fast like Bob Lutz thinks they will.
I think the next 10 years could be BOOM TIMES for the auto industry … especially GM since they appear to have some lead time over the rest of the industry. One thing is for sure … Big Oil and OPEC ain’t gonna like it. Does anyone care about OPEC and Big Oil? Nope. The world will be thrilled when we no longer have to pay an arm and a leg for fuel and pollute the environment bigtime.
Inexpensive batteries and energy storage will revolutionize the electric utility industry too. They’ll really be able to make the grid smarter and more flexible with good energy storage. The wind and solar industries will take off too. They need inexpensive, industrial scale energy storage bad. That, and cheaper electrical transmission lines … which might be coming soon with high temperature superconductors, nanotubes, etc.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:28 am
Many have said it and I will emphasize it. The key is that too much of the oil money ends up trickling down to nuts who would like to put us all under sharia law. We already send much of our money to Japan and Asia (Almost all electronics, TV’s ,etc. etc) Batteries would barely make a difference in this situation. The asians, however, don’t seem as hell bent on spreading their religion to the world and killing the infidels as some in the middle east.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:42 am
Yes, the failure of the Bush administration to create lithium ion battery production facilities seems very odd, since the move would do more for national security than pumping more oil.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:49 am
By the way, as far as lithium supplies goes … there should be plenty of inexpensive lithium for a good long time. Basically it’s wherever there are salt brines or whatever. There’s a lot of lithium in Nevada and California I hear. Most of the lithium comes from Chile and Argentina these days though because it’s cheaper to get to it or process it or something.
In the long run, we can still have plenty of lithium … only it will get more expensive. If we have to, I hear we can get it from seawater. Maybe there’s a huge supply of it somewhere in Utah … near the Great Salt Lake. I’ve even read that we may not even have to use lithium in the future. The scientists might come up with cheaper, more plentiful electrolytes besides lithium. Who knows.
Like Bob Lutz says, if I were in college, I would be studying electrical engineering. There’s going to be bright future for electric cars and battery technology. America should be POURING money into battery research like we did for the Manhattan project. The Asians definitely are right now. We should have a big network of universities and companies all working on battery research … each one working on key pieces of the puzzle. The goal? Cheaper and better batteries and energy storage devices. Lighter, more energy packed batteries that have plenty of power output, are safe, inexpensive, quick charging and hopefully can be easily recycled somehow.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:55 am
Well, I look at it this way. Let’s say we buy 100,000 batteries a year from China/Korea/Japan/whoever-let’s say that these batteries have an operational life expectancy of 7-10 years. What would you rather?
(A) An energy component that you buy/replace once every 10 years that is energized by domestically produced electricity
(B) A fuel source supplied by people who already don’t like you, will overcharge you from limited supply and increased global demand, and will more than likely try to kill you after they have your money
(C) Walk everywhere
…I say take your pick.
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:56 am
#6 Morgan
Hehe. I seen it this morning Morgan, before I came here. I couldn’t figure out why it was too me at first…because it was in reference to a post before that post, lol.
Good stuff…interesting find!
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:11 am
1) The lithium in batteries will be 100% recyclable and recent studies have shown the world supply of lithium is large enough to meet the challange.
2) Batteries can be made anywhere. Right now it is technically and econoically feasible to build them in asia. Maybe someday it will be North Anerica, or South America, or Africa, rr Antarctica. Sure, why not!
Next topic please…
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:14 am
The dependance we have with oil is from the sourc, raw product, as will be with batteries at some time.
The picture really should be a flag of Bolivia. The Unyuni (sp?) sea, old sea has got half the world’s supply. Right now…there is no production in Bolivia at all, but maybe the US should become tight buds with them.
You could also add Chile, Argentina…and yes, unfortunately China, rounding out the top 4. These 4 control about 12,000,000 tonnes of the reserve base…given the fact the estimate for the total reserve is around 13.5mil, they control, or will control about 90% of the market.
The kick to the stomach of America is that China is a big player, they already have the infrastructure and means to get it out to the market, and out cheap…much akin to the Saudis and oil. Even if America finds a way to produces all it needs….will it snub it’s nose at China’s product at a third the cost? Doubtful.
But that is the good news as well. America does quite a bit 410K (est, these numbers seem to find a way to rise as well). The question being of course is the same as oil. How easy is it to access, or rather at what cost?
A couple articles you should probably read if your interested. Two different sides of same story. (Nice to have both sides).
The first is littered with facts and figures, which is helpful to understand the base product and it’s dissemenation around the world, then goes into the author’s forward looking thoughts and conclusions.
http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1472
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 am
Korea is much friendlier to us than China is. Pouring our money into China, as we are presently doing, is doing the same thing we are doing with oil money going to the mid-east. China is no friend of ours. I would rather use Japanese or Korean suppliers than Chinese suppliers.
I hope Bob Lutz is right about the automation of the battery production process. Plus, I think the best place to build the batteries would be in the U.S. close to the automotive plant.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:37 am
How is it possible to call a battery built by an American company like
A123 Systems a “foreign battery.” The battery is owned by a US company, NOT foreigners. The EEStor devices, which will make all other batteries obsolete if they work, is not foreign either. Foreign nations have more to fear from domination by US battery developers than we do of them. Where the US companies choose to build their batteries will depend upon what’s best for US consumers, of whom there are hundreds of millions, NOT on whether a few hundred US workers get a crappy job in a battery factory. As for
other goods, no one seems to mind the low prices we pay for foreign produced goods of every other type of product known to man. Name one product that is made in this country that can’t be eaten. Our labor is noncompetitive in EVERY commercial area, including software and computers, products that we pioneered.
Final point : who cares who controls the production of batteries? Whoever does so will have to provide them to the global industry, lest they be whacked by the international trade commission and lose their patent rights. Which country takes the lead in battery manufacturing is totally irrelevant and a good example of unthinking zeonophobia.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:38 am
The lefties are a riot!
#12 The problem is that the Clinton administration didn’t do anything to create lithium ion battery production facilities. They also didn’t do anything to strengthen the New Orleans levies which would have avoided the Katrina flooding. And for that matter, it’s Clinton’s fault that the Thailand tsunami did all that damage because he did not setup tsunami early warning in the Pacific.
Get real!
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:47 am
The American people, companies and workers, can over come any hurdle put in front of them if we work together and do not stop believing that we can accomplish our goals. It is in our national interest to build as much of the electric car in the USA as possible. We must do this.
I want to see GM succeed because that will mean America is succeeding. It is as simple as that.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:48 am
This is silly. Once you install a battery in the car, its good for 8 to 10 years. There is threat turning off the tap of battery like OIL cartel did in the 70s.
If the battery producers do form a cartel and impose a embargo, there will someone else who can make the battery’s.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:51 am
There is plenty of blame for our failure in the past to go around. Government, whether under Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or G W Bush has failed to push conservation, drilling, exploration and God knows what else. We can not depend on government because it will fail us at every step. We must be part of the solution and push for our goals to be accomplished. I trust our capitalistic society to accomplish our needed goals a lot more than I trust government. We must start by trying our best, and knowing that we can’t always succeed, to purchase products made in the USA by American workers.
Let’s roll up our sleeves and get to work, America.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:54 am
Better to have battery power than oil power any day of the week. Let’s just get the Volt into production before Toyota gets the plug-in Prius on the market. Let’s be first for a change.
Worry about battery embargoes later.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:59 am
I have been out of touch for close to a week now. A lot has happened and I see that responses to each day’s post has been staggering. GM must be saying W*O*W. I know that I am. Way to go all of you. I wish us all much luck in the next 2 or three years as the Volt gets rolled out. We are going to need it as gasoline prices continue to rise and our politicians continue to say no to drilling. I know the argument about drilling will not help for 3 to 5 years, but we will still have tremendous oil requirements for the next 100 years. Let’s get started today. Let’s spend our oil money in America. Not overseas with countries that hate us.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 am
Aside from Lithium supplies, there is also ‘new tech’ to consider. Will Lithium be ‘the commodity’ for 100 years like oil has been?
Certainly not taking advantage Lithium because it could be a tight market in 50 years, seems like a stretch at best.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:13 am
I aggree with #26 Statik– Its highly unlikely that Lithium will stay king of the battery hill for very long. With the way tech has been advancing in recent decades its likely that a new method of storing power will come to market before the first Volt battery pack needs replacing.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:14 am
Becoming dependent on Chinese manufacturing for supplies on which national security depends is insanity.
In a few years the auto industry will be engaging in a massive transformation to electrification, which will eliminate the national security weakness of foreign oil dependence.
About that time, with the Olympics over, China will attack Taiwan. The threat of cut-off of our access to crucial supplies such as Li batteries could immobilize us.
The Feds need to implement a massive program to ensure the domestic ownership AND manufacture of Li batteries. It’s a national security no brainer.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 am
#13 GM Volt Fan,
Two other points to consider are:
1. Lithium batteries are improving at a rate of 8% per year, and
2. Lithium supplements or replacements are likely. For example, here is an article on yet another alphabet soup cathode chemistry that uses a sodium, perhaps with some lithium - A2FePO4F (A=Na, Li) – with an expected increase in energy storage and life cycle capability compared to LiFePO4 (A123’s basic cathode chemistry).
http://entropyproduction.blogspot.com/2007/10/sodium-ion-batteries.html
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:30 am
Unlike oil, batteries are not traded on the stock market, and so the price can’t be increased on a whim or for some dumb lame-ass excuse like future production worries. Also, there are many manufacturers of batteries, which lead to competition and lower prices.
That is why I want batteries over oil.
Saudi Arabia hates the U.S. Where places like China and Japan are somewhat friendly with us.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:52 am
Unlike crude oil, there can be many different alternatives to lithium as the technology is improved and they will use the same distribution and transportation channels.
Crude oil has few alternatives that use the same distribution channels (alcohol and…..). Even hydrogen requires a new delivery system.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:59 am
I think most people are in agreement that buying a non-renewable, consumable commodity like oil from OPEC is not the same as buying batteries from Japan, China or other nations.
If America wishes to remain a strong nation it must insist on keeping a strong international trade balance and security of it’s economy. If OPEC wanted to “get our attention” all they have to do is stop sending oil to us. Look what happened in the late 1970’s. It crushed us instantly and hampered us for a decade. Now that we are completely addicted to a daily inflow of a nonrenewable resource we are at other’s mercy. Thus, we have poor trade balance and no security of our economy. That’s why we are in such a sorry state.
I recommend the following to regain our strength as we move towards a renewable, sustainable future:
1) Keep trade balance. If we import a huge amount of batteries from China we should be selling other things to them like IP rights, airplanes, education, technology, etc. Keep balance and that allows each nation to do what they do best. That’s the way things should work and will allow the world to become most efficient.
2) Have multiple sources for key technologies like energy storage. There should be a minimum amount of manufacturing in the US for security reasons. Multiple sources reduce the risks that we will not be able to move our economy forward.
3) Continue to develop new energy technologies. That will give us the edge and keep us in the best position to compete in the global market. Even if we don’t manufacture the majority of the product on our soil. The important thing is we need to know how to do it and that we are in a position to ramp up to needed levels fast enough during times of trouble like war or international disagreements.
If we keep these simple concepts in mind when we make our policies we will put our country in a great position so we don’t have to do questionable things to maintain our economy. More independence gives more power. Just like a relationship where the wife depends too much on the husband. She is not in any position to assert any power or choice. Same thing! We are the dependent wife of OPEC. Admit it and let’s start changing the situation. Drilling ANWAR and the outer continental shelf or building nuke plants is not going to make any difference. We need a real, long-term energy plan that will help us get back to a strong leadership position.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:00 pm
batteries don’t require daily supply chains.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
N. Riley #23 says, “There is plenty of blame for our failure in the past to go around. Government, whether under Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or G W Bush has failed to push conservation, drilling, exploration and God knows what else.”
Thank you! It has nothing to do with left or right, Republican or Democrat. They are career politicians who are looking out for their own backside or the backside of the lobbyists, and not necessarily our backsides. My point is, they care more about themselves than the Nation.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Its like saying that it is to bad that fuel tanks are made in China. Ignoring that the fuel will be sourced locally.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
If the Chinese souce much of the lithium, the Chinese will use a lot of lithium batteries, so they will be buying much less oil, which is expensive for them too. Less use anywhere helps everyone everywhere.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
If GM doesn’t get a contract for the batteries soon, from somebody somewhere, there’s going to be a significant delay in the Volt. As you all can tell, they are making me significantly nervous with this protracted negotiation.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Two words:
TRADE DEFICIT!
We have to get over this idea that everything we need should come from over seas just because they have millions of desperate people to exploit and we can save a buck or two. You’ve got to wonder these days, if we went to war with China, do we actually have the ability and know how to manufacture anything anymore? I know most people don’t, but look at the country of origin for everything I buy and it is a rare day when I get the pleasure of buying something in America. Think about it, without China, the stores would be bare.
Will we ever figure out that it is worth paying more for things to keep more money at home? What happens in a decade or so when the Chinese, Indian, South American markets get bigger and the American market isn’t that big of a deal any more? What happens when China starts designing their own competitive products and really don’t need us for anything? Will the Asian countries and others stop loaning us money to survive? Will they call in our bad debts? We import almost everything and export almost nothing except bad movies and corrupt culture. Way to go America!
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Texas,
I have to disagree that nuclear isn’t part of the solution. Drilling ANWAR is debatable, but not exploring for domestic oil makes no real sense to me until we have an alternative to foreign oil. When we move to using electrons, we could (eventually) be oil EXporters. There ARE no short term solutions for the situation we’ve placed ourselves in, so we might as well get started now. DO EVERYTHING.
JMO,
Be well,
Tag
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:39 pm
______________________________________________________
Great Lutz Interview
The below is an extension to the link find from above #10 - GM Volt Fan
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfBZ0B2dAvA&feature=user
Lutz: “…now you have your Chevrolet VOLT sitting outside with it’s photovoltaic roof maintaining a charge…”
>>Wow, Does this mean that the VOLT will come with a photovoltaic roof ???
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdCLvTFZd6k&feature=user
Lutz: “…we were living in a fool’s paradise of cheap fuel…”
Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYO06ley6U&feature=user
Lutz: “…we can not be preoccupied with the past…”
The interview gave me additional confidence that Lutz is serious about dragging GM to a future of broad EV product lines. Lutz came across to me as a cool cat; the kind of guy you could enjoy sitting down with and having a real conversation. I got a kick out of how some of other GM guys in the interview were trying to “handle” Lutz so that Lutz not let too much out of the bag. I found the interview very revealing.
______________________________________________________
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Regarding lithium availability & mass, here are some numbers……
Lithium abundance - 0.0017%
Lead abundance - 0.00099%
So Li is nearly twice as plentiful as lead, from which most car batteries are made today. Like lead, it can be easily recycled.
Lithium mass - 535 Kg/m^3
Aluminum mass - 2,700 Kg/m^3
Li is about 5 times lighter than aluminum, so as an element it is easily transported …..and even very large Li-Ion batteries are unusually lightweight for their high energy/power densities.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I need one battery every 10 years, and I need a constant stream of oil. Fine.
Plus, there can be dozens of good kinds of battery. I haven’t looked at the raw materials necessary to build a battery, but it seems that it is a diverse set of materials that can be used. There’s only one good kind of gasoline. Also fine.
Also, if this becomes a problem, how many battery factories / refactories do you think we can build in the US in a decade, while I wait for my foreign-built battery to wear out? Very fine.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:14 pm
#41 Nasaman
Your are very right about the mass/power density of Lithium…it is a great resource. The most comforting part for me is the amount we have cumulatively in North America…and unlike our net oil reserves, access is not nearly as hard.
We certainly will be buying most of it from China, thats just the way it works, much like America does/did from the Saudi/middle east for oil. But the price will invariably rise to the level where it pays to produce as much of it as we can at home…and thats a good thing in the long run.
I find it similar to Canada’s oil reserves. We have scads and scads of oil all over the place, but in the past, (unless it was gov’t subsidized make work projects), it just sat there because the cost was about $30/barrel and the market value was less than that. Pointless to produce something that costs you more than you can sell it for.
Eventually the market shot past our cost, big time. Now we have another monster resource making the nation billions, (and if you don’t mind the cold (really cold) winters you can make $15/hour working at a coffee shop in Alberta).
I see the same potential in Lithium, albeit that day is probably along way off, much like oil was, perhaps 20 years down the road.
…and it sure ain’t hydrogen to transport.
Woohoo! I did it…I brought it back to hydrorgen. More hydrogen debate please….so exciting!
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:14 pm
One more thing…..
Bob Lutz said in one of these recent round table discussions on YouTube that a 12V car battery has only 4 MINUTES of human labor content and said that’s why their cost is independent of where they’re manufactured. (But he also inferred that because they’re heavy, they tend to be made not far from where they’re needed to reduce shipping costs.)
He also indicated that Li-Ion prismatic cells can be made on highly-automated assembly lines. I believe this is also true of a complete Li-Ion automotive battery, hence the labor content of Li-Ion batteries should also be minimal. (But even if each 16kWh Volt battery included 2 man hours for testing, etc, the added labor cost should be less than $300/battery assuming a labor rate of $150/hr including overhead, admin & profit costs).
I therefore remain convinced that the Volt’s batteries should not cost over about $3,500 each, even in modest production quantities of 10,000 or so.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Gee, the last two topics of discussion have been real bummers.
Anyways, as someone posted earlier, batteries can be recycled and turned into new batteries. Crude oil can’t be recycled.
As for where the batteries are made, didn’t I read somewhere that if LG chem got the contract, they will build a battery plant near where the Volt will be manufactured?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I think comparing dependence on foreign oil to dependence on foreign batteries is deceptive.
First, batteries are recycled. The raw materials will be used over and over again. Most studies that predict world shortages for Lithium don’t take this into account.
Second, the real dependence here is on cheap foreign labor. As world labor markets equalize, manufacturing jobs will start coming back to the U.S..
Third, the countries that are making the batteries don’t have fanatical Islamic terrorists that are trying to kill us.
Fourth, using batteries produces far less carbon emmissions.
Did I forget anything?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
43 Statik…..
If we buy most of our Li-Ion automotive batteries from China I believe that would be a mistake. Although they’re not heavy for their size, they’re physically large so they’ll fill shipping containers up quickly. Also, Li-Ion batteries begin permanently losing capacity as soon as they’re assembled, so “just-in-time” manufacturing scheduling makes good sense. Given that the Li-Ion labor content will be a small percentage of their OEM price, I think Li-Ion factories can & should be located to allow land transport to auto assembly plants.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
#38 and others
Before we go too far down the path of “how the USA lost manufacturing” there are some other facts to consider:
US manufacturing today in relation to US manufacturing in 1950 showns an increase, not a decrease, and an increase times 7, not just a little bit.
The fraction of the total world output that is US output has increased since 1950, by a small amount, but still an increase.
The fact that most products are more globalized today does not mean that the USA is less of a manufacturing powerhouse. It remains huge. We in the US are much aware of imports, but much less aware of US exports. They also are big time.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Plug-in Cars May Substitute Dependence on Foreign Oil With Dependance on Foreign Batteries.
Are we cripple in this country? Are we not smart enough to come out with new technology? Some people sure think so. That’s the kind of thinking that gets you in trouble. A123System is a US company and I think they are the technological battery leader in the world or does someone know better?
Another question. Who puts these topics on this web site? I don’t think I’ll get an answer but I try to find out.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
#49 Joe — Lyle puts the topics on the web site. He does a great job of it, too. We are still reading it, aren’t we?
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Regarding manufacturing Li-Ion batteries so they’re land-transportable to automobile assemby factories, as I said in post 47, anyone who hasn’t seen last Friday’s discussion by Bob Lutz on Lithium vs Lead acid batteries on YouTube should take a look…..
http://chris.pirillo.com/2008/06/20/car-batteries-acid-lead-vs-lithium-ion/
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
If I recall LG Chem’s Lith battery factory is in Korea, and A123’s would be in China. If I recall LG has also commented that they would build a second factory in Michigan. Neither is strictly domestically owned, but I think the idea of any “domesitically owned” corporation is a fantasy, if it is publically traded.
I am sure that Lithium is already being traded on the commodities markets, but Statik will correct me if I am wrong. So it will also be subject to speculation, etc. But Litihium will not become the new oil for the reasons referenced above (other materials for batteries, lower frequency and volume of use).
Also, don’t run out and invest in Bolivian Lithium companies until you check out the local politics. The US will not be “best buds” with the Bolivian government anytime soon. The current president has close ties to Venezuela, and there is a potential civil war brewing with the southern states, where most of the oil and natural gas is located. Some people there even have funny ideas about the US wanting to meddle in their local politics for the sake of oil. Crazy.
P.S. Why is Carter on the list? He pushed conservation more than anyone before or since. He inspired that great Sammy Hagar song, “I can’t drive 55.” Some even believe that his penchant for conservation hurt him politically more than the Iran hostage crisis.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I’ll pull a trailer filled with lead acid batteries behind my Volt. Just let me buy a Volt so I can use less oil. As soon as the retard leaves office i’ll bet an intelligent leader will make the electric vehicle a PRIORITY!. And battery supply and solutions will be also.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Fred, #53. The retarded will be replaced by someone who has to deal with a “do nothing” congress. The new President will have his hands tied.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Lots of stuff here. OUR governments, at all levels, should spend money on solutions to real problems:
Plan cities for life using public transit.
Plan automobiles to use electricity and green fuels.
Plan for electricity produced by green fuels.
We shouldn’t be back here in 30 years, after depleting ANWR and Gulf oil, looking for a solution to get off of oil!
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Rashid@54,
And thank God for that. It’s called checks and balances. Two out of three are working.
JMO
Tag
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I have positive confirmation that Static’s and Tagamet’s medicine cabinets contain 40% of the worlds lithium and if they are caught at the right moment it can be obtained free of charge. Of course if timed wrong it could result in some flying lead.
I’m a teeney weeney bit confident that we could figure out how to make a battery if need be, but then again we could redirect our military to the far east to force the issue. I’ld hate to have all those resources idled without have to peacekeep the middle east.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Tag, #56. Sometimes change it good. Sometimes change is bad.
Someone always gets screwed either way though.
The change I would like to see is a “Manhattan Project” style program for solar energy. So we can charge the Volt while driving it. So we can take our homes off the grid. So we can get off of fossil fuels altogether and just use the sun.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
#52 MarkINWI
I agree with your comment except for the Carter part. Nixon started the 55 mph national speed limit. He also told the American Public to turn your thermostats down to 68 in winter nights. He also tried to expand daylight savings time, to save energy. I forget some of the others. I actually think he was the best leader in cutting energy. Ashame that it was so long ago…that we had a national energy leader.
This was in response to the Arab Oil Embargo of ‘73/’74. We don’t remember Nixon’s ideas, nor do we remember that we were in this mess before and learned NOTHING!
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Koz@57
Stay outta my meds!(g)
RE the last comment, “The Litium Wars” has a kinda Sci-fi ring to it, however given that Li is the 15th most common element AND probably just a transition technological stage, I doubt many wars will be fought over it.
Rashid@58
All noble and achievable goals. I’m sure every generation feels like “these are really exciting and critical times”. Change is inevitable.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
#54 Rashiid Amul
“The new President will have his hands tied.”
Hmmm…Isn’t that why the President is supposed to be a leader. I understand what you are saying. It’s not an easy task, but it is not beyond strong leadership either. Of course if you don’t want the government to do anything other than make cuts, you shouldn’t expect much to happen.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:54 pm
A NC newspaper today published an interview with one of NC’s US senators, Richard Burr (R). You recall he was listed a few topics back as having voted against tax credits for electric cars. Today he is quoted as saying “Congress should be promoting all electric autos by providing tax credits” and “..cars such as the Chevrolet Volt are scheduled to hit showrooms by 2010…”
When constituents get upset, views do change.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Koz@61 said - …Of course if you don’t want the government to do anything other than make cuts, you shouldn’t expect much to happen.
You lost me here. Cuts of what? Help me out.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Tagamet #60,
Sorry, I meant your professional cabinet and Static personnel one.
““The Litium Wars” has a kinda Sci-fi ring to it, however given that Li is the 15th most common element AND probably just a transition technological stage, I doubt many wars will be fought over it.”
I was refering to the battery manufacturing in the far east while just poking a little fun at the hawks. I didn’t think this article merited a serious response since it is sooooo rediculous. You are of course correct about Lithium being an abundant element…screw ‘em it’s cheaper to send our warships south…damn where IS my lithium?
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:04 pm
#58 Rashiid
Solar power, my favoUrite topic. I don’t think we even need a “Manhattan Prohect” Just get our homes off the grid, then our cars.
All we really need to do is hire the guys at Nike to market it for us.
The tech is here AND it’s priced decently, it’s just a few phone calls away.
The gov’t (both in the US and Canada) have some great programs, (here in Ontario they buy it off you at .42 cents kW). Many state level programs pay for half of your costs to set it up.
We talk about payback on the ‘difference’ between the Volt and a ‘insert other car here’ but the payback is assured with solar, the math is good. All cars are virtually worthless after 5-6 years or 100,000 miles…total investment gone. Not so with solar…you get your ACTUAL money back, relatively quickly, and then it’s all gravy after that.
For the thrify shopper, it’s usually around 10 years, for the thrifty and handy about 8. Then free power! Seems so simple.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:05 pm
drats, no edit button on this computer for some reason
“…and Static personnel one”
“…and Static’s personal one”
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Statik, #65
We talk a lot here about alternative energy. By far my favorite is Solar.
If we could just perfect the collection of it to around 80%, that would be awesome. Then make it cheaply so everyone can afford to put it on their home.
Statik, can you please explain the “U” in “Solar power, my favoUrite topic” for me. I see you use it a lot, but I don’t get the connection.
Something Canadian I think. Thanks.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25188772/
“The next major development in the hybrid space is expected in 2010, when GM’s Chevy Volt, a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, is expected to go into production, says Aaron Bragman, an automotive analyst at consultancy Global Insight.
The Volt, which can be recharged from a home electrical outlet, is expected to go on sale in early 2011 and may be worth waiting for, said Bragman.”
This article is worth the read. Quite interesting.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I’ll repost this over a year old article for those who missed it. Martin Eberhard’s testimony to Congress on this very subject of where to produce batteries and National security.
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1245
ps: I think the price of labor in this country to manufacture parts and cars has dropped recently.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Koz,
I knew you were just “funnin”
Statik,
Depending on what happens in Nov, I may be looking for land near you. There’s NO WAY I can touch solar in Penna. - handy or not.
Tag
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Published in the March 2008 issue Popular Mechanics
America’s manufacturing sales stagnated at the $4 trillion mark in the late 1990s. But then something surprising happened. America started selling again—finding more customers for tractors, steel, plastics, knives and medicines than ever before. Manufacturing sales hit a record $5 trillion in 2006, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.“People talk about a doomsday scenario for manufacturing, but that’s not the case,” says Vinod Singhal, a professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology’s College of Management. “The best U.S. manufacturers have become more competitive, no doubt about it.”
Five American Manufacturers Doing It Right: Made in the USA
By Phaedra Hise
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4249332.html?page=1
GM is responding to US customers in a new and innovative way. This is what they can and have to do to compete.
Bob Lutz and GM are doing it. The EREV and Volt are already a success and will be mass produced.
Made in the USA
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:30 pm
# 62 RB
Did you see my post yesterday #99?
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Enerdel is the only American battery manufacturer? Don’t tell that to ElectroEnergy. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/13/air-force-contract-to-continue-work-on-high-energy-battery-award/
Not to mention Altairnano http://www.altairnano.com/
Or Lithium Technology Corporation http://www.lithiumtech.com/
Or Electrocvaya (Ok, they’re Canadian, so sue me)
http://www.electrovaya.com/technology/master/Default.aspx
Or, if you believe anything Hybrid Technologies has to say…There is “Superlattice Power” http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/03/superlattice-power-inc-claims-new-ev-battery-will-offer-200-mi/
There are some European battery makers as well. Bollore, for instance, is partnering with Pininfarina to make an EV. Johnson Controls/Saft is building batteries for Ford PHEVs in France.
The only problem I see is with the battery knowledge of Justin Hyde, the original article writer.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:46 pm
MarkFLL # 68. That was a very interesting read. I especially liked the
Hybrid payback interactive they had there.
Thanks for posting the link.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:24 pm
For those of you that have written your Senator regarding H.R. 6049 (the Renewable Enrgey and Job Creations bill), I thank you. For those who have not, PLEASE…..write or email your senator and appeal for thier support of this bill. This legislation will be critical to the success of the EREV program. Without the tax incentives, the purchase of an EREV becomes hard to justify financially. We need to jumpstart this industry NOW and surveys indicate that 75% of Americans support this view
Some of our senators (like both of the honorable senators from the great state of New Hampshire) do not support his bill. I intend to get on their case and hope you all will do the same.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
We put a man on the moon … and “WE” cannot design and build a battery “HERE” for the volt..?????..
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Wow… you mean we’ll have to trade being dependent on a non-recyclable non-renewable scarce resource for being dependent on a recyclable, possibly non-renewable resource?
I’ll take it! And I’ll also be opening up a battery factory!
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
#26 Statik says
“Aside from Lithium supplies, there is also ‘new tech’ to consider. Will Lithium be ‘the commodity’ for 100 years like oil has been?
Certainly not taking advantage Lithium because it could be a tight market in 50 years, seems like a stretch at best.”
=============
Totally agree, remember just a few years ago NiCad was “the battery” and Li-ion was some future StarWars technology? I am sure battery development is not stopping with Li-ion. They are already working on the next best thing and in 10 years we will all be bitching that the new battery packs for our Volts to get 200 miles per charge are being shipped to CA, FL, NY and DC first.
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:06 pm
If GM is smart they will produce the battery packs here so Toyota or China can’t cut-off GM’s supply. If the pack assembly is totally automated then shipping costs should offset any “higher” labor costs.
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I didn’t read all of the posts here, but just in case it was already said, here it is again…..
GM is closing plants. Why not build batteries in one or more of these plants???????
Why don’t we keep some of our money here, in the USA?
Oh yeah, sure, it’s probably cheaper to hire people in other countries, thus increasing the profit motive for the corporations and their CEOs, but if we don’t employ people here, eventually, we won’t have any money to spend and then no one will be buying cars. Then where does the profit go?
All large coporations are farming jobs out for the quick profit but in the long term, we are ruining our country.
Globalization is fine, nothing wrong with sharing the wealth, but when everything is made in other countries and nothing is made here, what do you think is going to happen? Soon the money train will run out and it will be 1929 again. Don’t forget your history. - I’m speaking the the CEOs here.
This is not funny. How much money do you need? Is it worth it to ruin the country just to have the fifth mansion or third yacht? There’s nothing wrong with being the millionaire when you’re on top. I’m just saying, how many billions do you need where it’s worth it when the middle class becomes the poor, China becomes the leader of the world and we’re all sitting in the cold eating
stale bread?