In following the Volt enthusiastically, one cannot help being struck by the significance of GM’s current financial challenges.
The company had been in the midst of a turnaround effort when VOLT was first introduced. Since then many significant economic hurdles have been presented. Not the least of which is the rapidly slumping sale of trucks and SUVs taking place across the USA in response to $4 gasoline. Trucks have long been GM’s dominant product accounting for a significant share of their North American revenue.
On June 3rd GM announced they were closing 4 truck and SUV plants, and considering the sale of Hummer. Now we find out they have put future product development for trucks and SUVs on hold. The carmaker has shifted significant engineering and development forces from truck building to car building in the hopes of better serving the rapidly shifting consumer marketplace. They are also developing plans on how to expand the E-flex portfolio for which the VOLT is only the beginning.
GM’s stock has reached its lowest level since 1982 as the company faces the prospects of needing to borrow as much as $10 billion at a time that its credit rating has also just been dropped. Further economic losses are also being induced by the fact that trucks being returned from leases suddenly have significant lower residual values. This while no profit has been made since 2004, and cash is being burned to the tune of $1 billion per month. GM started this quarter with about $24 billion in reserve but needs from $10 – $15 billion to operate.
There is talk of shedding brands and selling assets. GMs’ market value is nearly that Chrysler had reached when it was bought by Cerberus.
The time has come my fellow Americans, support GM now in these tough days, and help them bring the VOLT to market.
Source (WSJ ), (Detroit Press ), and (CNN )
This entry was posted on Saturday, June 21st, 2008 at 7:30 am and is filed under Financial, General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:45 am)I have to concede, Statik called it. The sheer monthly losses, and the lower credit rating that Statik brought to our attention yesterday, are staggering in combination. Can anyone say, “Government bail-out?” Or do we allow our manufacturing capacity to be further eroded?
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:45 am)I am a homebuilder. I need a pickup truck.
Sales on trucks, SUVs, Hummers are down because gas in not cheap anymore…
Same thing happened in the seventies ya’ll, with the Arab oil embargo, remember that.
This is nothing new except now our government is in on it also.
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:46 am)DRILL HERE. DRILL NOW. PAY LESS.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:05 am)Trucks are and will remain a huge business. What we need is an EREV truck. Yes, the battery will have to be bigger. GM, please make us one.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:06 am)Ford put hybrids on hold while it downsized, will GM do the same?
The article I read said GMC and Pontiac might be shed along with Hummer. GM will still have Chevy, Saturn, Buick and Cadillac, plus its overseas brands like Opel and I know not what else.
Are we ready for the movie, Who Killed GM? Was it the corporation hating Democrats, or the Union culture of putting the needs of the worker over the needs of the manufacturer? Was it corporate leadership that sought short term profits from large and inefficient vehicles, who built vehicles that fell apart, that had inadequate headroom?
I bought 7 GM products during my lifetime, 5 of which were bought new, but two of them were lemons.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:09 am)If we are still another 5 years away from an affordable Volt or plugin Prius because GM has gone under and Toyota has stolen GM’s technology (yes, I said it), does anybody know about CNG or Biodiesel home kits?
Also, I read about some guy in Atlanta GA. that was converting cars to electric for approx. 10K… He is developing an electric car and was going to sell them through Walmart.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/06/sams-club-to-sell-lithium-ion-electric-car-in-christmas-promoti/
I guess to get an electric car right now it’s going to have to be fugly…
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:10 am)If they started selling the “Plug In hybrid line”, they could stop the bleeding.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:11 am)While I’m not a fan of putting all the eggs in one basket, I have to agree with RB #4. People want trucks, SUVs, Hummers, etc. Make them all EREVs. It’s not the people don’t want the vehicles I mentioned. They just don’t want to pay for the gas. Make them EREVs.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:13 am)Van # 5 says, “Ford put hybrids on hold while it downsized, will GM do the same?”
I seem to recall this and thinking at the time it was a stupid mistake.
Today, people want better gas mileage and the hybrids can fit that bill.
IMO, that is where GM should be concentrating. My hope is that they continue developing this while they restructure.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:16 am)In the face of these financial challenges, I have to wonder if GM will decide to direct its E-FLEX/E-REV development and marketing efforts into those market segments where it has long been pre-eminent (as well as profitable) —trucks and SUVs. It is becoming increasing clear that vehicle mass is far less important to the efficiency of a well-designed E-REV truck/SUV than to a comparable ICE-powered vehicle. For example, the new EPA figures for a 2008 mild hybrid Saturn VUE (a 4,000+ lb vehicle) are 32Hwy/25City, whereas the much lighter/smaller Saturn Aura with the same 2.4L gas engine and the same type mild hybrid system has EPA ratings of 32Hwy/24City, slightly worse even lthough it’s a much lighter, smaller vehicle than the VUE!
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:18 am)Brad G #6 says, “If we are still another 5 years away from an affordable Volt or plugin Prius because GM has gone under and Toyota has stolen GM’s technology (yes, I said it)…..”
Yesterday while reading some of Statiks comments, I thought of something similar. Not when Toyota would steal GMs technology, but when will Toyota buy General Motors altogether.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:18 am)HEY GM! HERE IS A STOCK TIP!
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/03/japan-post-plans-a-switch-to-electric-cars-mitsubishi-stock-soa/
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:23 am)#11 Rashiid Amu069
Another American industry gone. Japan’s corporate game plan is long term vs. the U.S. corporate game plan is “what’s my stock price today”.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:26 am)Maybe GM’s being put out of business by Walmart…
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/24/walmart-ceo-there-is-a-place-for-wal-mart-in-the-hybrid-electr/
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:31 am)O.K. Now that I’m pissed I have to go to work and yell at subs. Ya’ll can bash away at me and I’ll be back at noon to defend myself. i guess it’s that time of the month….
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:36 am)#14 Brad G. Very interesting article. I hope Walmart will be able to do it and the other box stores can follow suit. The way I read it, they are not competing against GM, but complimenting them by providing electric charging. IMO, this is exactly what we need.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:48 am)______________________________________________________
The GM financial crises may be a good thing.
The upside of crises is that it tends to sharpen the senses and serves as a catalyst to get things done. Exception: Modern American Government (both sides of the isle).
The GM financial crises in combination with GM’s considerable EREV head-start may actually be the ideal combination of ingredients to accelerate GM extending the VOLT platform to GM’s other portfolio lines. I’m placing my bet on Lutz to pull it off.
Go GM VOLT TEAM! Your leading the way.
______________________________________________________
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:48 am)Joe 6-pack has sobered up, realizing he doesn’t need a 3/4 ton 4×4 to drive back and forth to work everyday.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:17 am)GM has only themselves to blame, big profit, big SUV with “mild hybrid”: America, this is your environmentally friendly Chevy Suburban, with 15 mpg, improved from 13 mpg, oh, big deal
.
Since American auto companies situation is close to Chapter 7, when I was shopping around, say a Chevy Malibu, I was asking for at least 40% discount off MSRP or I will go with a Toyota/Honda. Because if GM went out of business, my warranty will be worthless.
I will NOT support any American big companies unless they are responsible and focus on long-term solutions. GM, Ford, Chrysler has NOT changed. A chapter 11 filing may not change it either. Just look at GM’s bragging attitude when they have not even finish testing their battery for 100,000 miles and they may NEVER be able to deliver Volt. They hyped Volt so much, almost making me to doubt if they really know the reality that any battery’s life suffer greatly under harsh conditions (Cold, hot weather, fast acceleration, etc) or it will be another EV1.
Here is the bottom line: When Toyota/Honda hire more people, they are American, who cares if GM went out business if Toyota has 100,000 employees here? Toyota will soon over take GM in the US, while already more than 50% Americans (not fleet sales) buy Japanese cars.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:18 am)GM is just paying the price for the blunders they did in the past.
When there is an economic burden on the people, they would downsize their requirements and also choose the most reliable ones
as far as automobiles are concerned.
GM is just hiding the problems instead of fixing it. I mean instead of fixing the realiability of their automobiles, they are just throwing out new models. First of all, all the best minds in GM should sit together and go thru point by point why GM automobiles are less reliable than Japanese counterparts and fix it and make its automobiles exceed the customer expectations and throw Japanese ones out of the market.
GM is just trying to satisfy the shareholders instead of customers. What they are not realizing is it by not satisfying the customers they would also not satisfy the shareholders in the long term. GM will die sooner then we think if they continue the same attitude.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:23 am)I have said it several times before, people love their SUV’s, the storage, the assurance (real or otherwise) of AWD, but they are now running away from them as they guzzle gas. GM already has; 1) a large head start on the detail engineering of an EREV and 2) a concept vehicle in the form of the Cadillac Provoq (replace the hydrogen fuel cell with a practical ICE).
If GM is to survive they need to bring products to market that people want ASAP, before the competition takes their ideas and beats them to it. Many PEOPLE WANT SUV’s (myself included), but are not willing to burn the fuel (that’s why I will continue to drive my Toyota Highlander Hybrid – starting on my fourth year now) until something better comes along (whether it is Toyota, GM, etc.). I would prefer it to be GM, but they need to make these products available to buy.
GM can’t generate revenue and profits if you can’t make them available for sale in volume. Best of luck to GM’s survival.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:24 am)BradG # 3:
I’ve looked at the numbers for ANWR, and they’re a drop in the bucket. Not that Bush helped when he told a group of truckers that there was 27 million gallons of diesel fuel in ANWR, but drops in the bucket in the world oil market are measured in billions of barrels of oil per day. The real number in ANWR is between 5.7 and 16.0 billion barrels. The total world oil consumption (and oil is a global market no matter what anyone does) is on the order of 83 million barrels of oil a day (2005 numbers), so ANWR would be about 6 months worth of oil, in the best possible case. Professional analyses seem estimate that drilling in ANWR would reduce the cost of retail gasoline by about $0.25/gal, which is down in the noise at this point. A drop in the bucket.
Having been to Alaska, I’m not sure that drilling matters… Alaska is a place where nature can and will kick your ass — so, as much of a hippie as I can be at times, I don’t think that the bleeding-heart environmentalists win this one. But, as someone who is mathematically literate and an information-junkie, I don’t think that the quantities of oil that are available there are worth all of the political hype — I think it’s really just a symbolic issue that politicians can use to show how much of a wingnut or how much of an “environmentalist” they are.
I haven’t looked at the numbers for the estimated reserves in the coastal areas that they’re talking about, though, so the picture could be quite different there. Or it may not be. I haven’t looked at the data.
If you’re interested in these issues, I recommend the following blog:
http://www.theoildrum.com
They have a strong bias for the idea that we’re running out of oil NOW, which you may or may not agree with (I’m not sure where I stand on the issue myself), but the benefit of the site is that people argue with numbers and graphs with something close to academic rigor. Even if you disagree with them, they are at least arguing about the right questions using the right tools. If they’re right, the Volt needed to be here yesterday, and if they’re wrong the Volt needs to be here next week.
Anyway, my apologies — I just couldn’t let a simple political slogan slide without bringing some complicated numbers into the issue….
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:27 am)______________________________________________________
Brad G #14 – That was an excellent link find regarding Walmart…thanks.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/24/walmart-ceo-there-is-a-place-for-wal-mart-in-the-hybrid-electr/
In my opinion, that Walmart news is the most significant EV related news since GM announced their intentions regarding the VOLT program; monumentally BIG !!! This is a very good thing for GM; GM + Walmart = BIG Forward EV Momentum.
Walmart getting behind the EV movement is better than the American Government spending a trillion dollars supporting EV.
I’ve got a big smile on my face. Life is good.
_____________________________________________________
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:34 am)s/billions of barrels of oil per day/billions of barrels of oil/
If I’m going to rant about people who say kilowatts when they meant kilowatt-hours, I’d better get that right!
[ducks]
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:38 am)Actually, GM and Ford appear to have finally “closed the gap” on quality and reliability in some of their cars. The new Malibu has won a lot of awards by the automotive press … North American Car of the Year. So has the Cadillac CTS. They just need to be consistent about it in ALL of their cars and trucks. I think they’ve turned the corner on building quality cars that match up well vs. the Japanese and European cars. It took a long time, but I think they’ve finally done it.
I hope they REALLY get the JD Power, Consumer Reports, and Motor Trend folks fired up about the Volt when it comes out. If the battery is rock solid, I think the Volt should be pretty darned reliable. Electronic systems usually beat mechanical systems every time once they bug test everything thoroughly. That’s exactly what GM’s engineers are doing these days. Lots and lots of testing …. in all sorts of conditions. They might be testing the Volt on Pike’s Peak and the Mojave Desert before long. I hear that the cooling system for the batteries should be pretty reliable and keep them running at optimal temperatures and safe.
The Volt really is a whole new breed of car. Brand new DNA. The first mainstream electric drive automobile. The first “series hybrid” ever … or E-REV or ER-EV whatever you want to call it. I have a feeling that “Maximum Bob” is going to make sure his engineers put in a maximum effort on the Volt. It ought to be a real nice car once it comes out. Hopefully it’ll have a great exterior and interior and world class, cutting edge technology under the hood. Toyota engineers will have to give Bob Lutz and GM a Japanese style bow for their achievements with the Volt.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:43 am)The primary vehicle of the agency I work for is the 1/2 ton pickup truck, single cab and 2 wheel drive. We have approximately 2000 of them Fords, Dodges, and GMCs. The personal favorite of most of our workers is the GMC for fuel economy, ride, and handling. What we do requires either a pickup or midsized SUV. We have our own fueling stations with both gas and diesel pumps. We can’t afford the hybrid Silverado but we would probably buy a half ton diesel by the hundreds. Better fuel economy, more durable, and we allready have trained diesel mechanics on staff. In the future if they had an EREV pickup available that would be nice but GM could sell plain Jane, diesel work trucks by the hundreds of thousands now since every state has a similar agency and they are usually limited to domestic vehicles.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:48 am)“In following the Volt enthusiastically, one cannot help being struck by the significance of GM’s current financial challenges”
You don’t say? I was unaware of any problems at GM.
Seriously, shouldn’t I get like a nod or something in that post Lyle? You practically cut and paste my posts over the last month, lol. C’mon throw me a bone. (I kidd…no seriously…I kidd, seriously)
FYI, current cash is pegged at 20.5 billion. The next hit will be the buyout of the 19,000 odd workers at the end of July, probably in the 900 million to 1.3 billion range…hard to say as they did not give the demographics of those taking the numbers, so it is hard to guesstimate…it will show up when they have to file the one time charge (although I know when I first did the math I underestimated the number of ‘bridge to retirement’ buyouts, so my new guess-ti-mate is actaully a little lower).
#4 RB
Dude! (Yes, I said dude…it’s summertime, I’m currently sporting a ‘flowery shirt,’ so dude is completely appropriate).
The MONEY is right there. EREV truck. People aren’t balking at the price of trucks, they are balking at the pump ($100 please).
Honestly, the battery doesn’t even need to be that much bigger. Just plunk the 16kWh Volt battery in there and give it regen breaking. True the range will probably top out at 15-20miles, and the fuel efficiency might go up to 18MPG with the regen…but thats all people need to buy this thing. The blended 50 mile MPG would still be like 30MPG.
People need trucks to do stuff, but they also need them to just go to the supermarket to just get milk. Most people can’t have a truck for work and a spare car kicking around to go to the movies on ‘welfare night’ (Tuesdays in Canada…half price).
This is truely where the dollar bills are. There is no one in this segment at all, not even close–nothing in development.
I want a Volt, not a truck…but GM should be throwing their last dollars at this project. (On a cost to development basis, it would be much, much cheaper. No special engineering need to find room for a T-Pack battery here). It would also be ‘hella cool’ to have a more aerodynamic looking truck…enough with the flat-faced ‘monsters-of-the-road’ The jelly bean design has a future here! Sleek and sexy.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:03 am)There is a small company in Utah that is working with one of the “Detroit Big 3″ on an EREV truck. The company calls it a “Chevy Volt, on steroids.” Don’t agree with the use of the term ‘steroids’, but I guess it explains what they’re working on. The automaker has yet to be named due to rights to marketing, but speculation points to GM being the OEM. The truck/suv will be unveiled later this year. My guess is at the LA Auto Show in Nov.
40 mile all electric range
0-60 in 8.8 seconds
200kw AC induction motor
700 volts of electrical power, it has an onboard power generation unit where you can power up to 6 homes… (for fleet vehicles, won’t be on the consumer version)
Here’s a link to a video Raser has created explaining a little about the EREV. There are also other videos on Raser’s website.
http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/news_articles_PHEV_truck.html
There is also a good PDF document showing the specs of the EREV truck.
http://www.rasertech.com/media/pdfs/Series_PHEV_Drive_System_Flyer_07.pdf
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:14 am)Imagine a big battery E-REV truck….built in generator for your job!!!
And get it out fast, GM. Suggestion: don’t develope a new battery…just stack two or three in there under the bed.
And 20 mi, that’s fine for a truck. Trucks do local jobs.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:15 am)statik,
You remind me of my old man, if you say enough lousy things about someone long enough, eventually you will be proven right.
GM is on the right path, and I expect that the government will give GM favorable loans, in spite of their current credit rating, and they will be able to continue with their E-REV development efforts.
GM is in the best position of the three automakers, and all your harassment won’t deter GM from completing the Volt, so go bark up another tree.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:17 am)As for all the talk about opening up to big oil offshore drilling and in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge…. the oil companies have already been called on this by the astute polititions… big oil companies already have leases to tons of Federal lands that hold significant reserves… on which big oil has done nothing with. The new leases they want to get so they can lock them up before they lose their best three lobbiests sitting in the white house (Bush/Cheney, and let’s not forget Condy Rice came from Chevron).
And as for the offshore drilling… even if they were given leases…. there is a 5+ year back log for orders of new offshore drilling platforms, so you are looking at 5 + 5 = 10 years before you’d even see oil flowing from any of those.
As others mentioned above, it’s a global market… pumping oil from off our own shorelines does not mean we get a discount price for that oil, the global market sets the price for a barrel, no matter if you pump it out of your own backyard or from Iraq.
The biggest thing that may help bring down oil prices is to close what’s refered to as the “Enron Loophole” in the trading markets which includes for oil. Some estimate between 25-50% of the price of oil right now is due to that. Think what happened to electric and natural gas prices in California.
In any case, fossil fuels are a finite resource. We can just keep drilling to our hearts content, but it’s just going to speed up their depletion. In the mean time we’re re-releasing into the atmosphere over a period of just a couple hundred years carbon that had been removed from it over millions and millions of years (and at the same time natural carbon sinks are being cut down). Is this what we are leaving to our grand children?
We have to shift away from our reliance on fossil fuels to an infrastruture that gives us the flexibility to phase in other energy sources. Electricity gives us that flexibility. Look how quickly we moved away from generating a significant portion of our electric needs with oil after the 1970′s oil crisis. But our general transportation sector was not able to do the same. Now is our chance… BEV’s, with or without “range extenders”, can give the transportation sector that same flexibility. Then clean and renewable energy can be phased in… wind, solar (both thermal and PV, which in the works are even space based PV transmitting down to earth via microwaves), hydro, tidal, geothermal, nuclear (fission), and maybe someday (though I don’t expect to see it in my life time) nuclear fusion.
So give us the Chevy Volt, the Tesla Roadster and Whitestar, the Volvo Recharge, Phoenix, etc etc! Let’s go back 100 years to the future when EV’s rule the (motorized) world!
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:22 am)#27 Statik — Dude(!), right now I am at the mall, which I got to by driving 10 miles with my wife in our Silverado truck. I love my truck, and besides that it carries the stuff I need to carry, mostly on short trips. If there was an EREV truck that followed your numbers, I would be at the dealer today. It’s ok if my new truck is a little bit expensive, I just want it, and I don’t want to see any more $100 at the pump.
For me the Volt is a curiosity. Replacing my Silverado (140K miles on it) today with a new one would be expensive, and the gas mileage improvement is real but not huge. With an EREV truck, we’d be talking serious.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:35 am)I’ll gladly support GM in buying a new car from them, once I cna buy an electric once. I have over $30K spare cash to buy a car which will leave me very small payments. But I’m anxiously awaiting the car to be for sale.
Hopefully GM will show us the redesign of the Volt soon, and will get the world drooling for one soon. Now that they have retired the prototype, what is holding them back from showing us the redesigned Volt?
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:36 am)Jeff @ 31
Exactly. There are NO assurances that any oil pumped from the anywhere in or near the US will go to American refineries and in fact, it’s unlikely it will. If that happens, America will still be dependent on foreign oil. If we try and force it to American refineries….that’s not going to happen.
Before we give any more drilling rights we need to get the companies to drill the lease areas they have now.
There is no incentive for them to do that, no incentive to build refineries (only lowers price) and no incentive to work on alternatives. You can’t blame them, there is nothing in it for them.
We need to do it ALL independent of the oil companies.
Finally we need to stop the speculation on oil or at a minimum raise the margin rate so only those that can really afford to guess can play.
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:00 am)Crushing perfectly working cars has never been good car business. Should have sold the EV1 for a 100% markup, rather than crush them.
Karma’s a biatch.
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:03 am)NF #28. Thank you for that link. I honestly think, as I said above, all of the trucks and SUVs have to be converted to EREVs. Your link shows just that. However, the truck doesn’t look very aerodynamic.
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:08 am)Thanks Mr. Bush, as GM goes so does the nation, most of you may not believe this but you will in the near future. Deficits through the roof to make all of his buddies rich. No one talks about it but Toyota,s sales are even down 8 per cent. The US market for vehicles will soon evaporate so who do you think japan will be able to sell all of those vehicles to. GM made some mistakes in the past but all of you who voted for Bush have helped kill this once great country, the partys over let the carnage begin. And oh yes be sure to blame the unions how do you think this country achieved such a high standard of living? If we are lucky enough we will be able to climb out of this hole in 30 to 50 years, THANKS AGAIN GEORGE , WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT AS GM ITS TIME TO START BAILING.
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:14 am)#1 MarkinWI & #30 Jason M. Hendler
I don’t believe that there will be a government bail-out simply because every one of the big 3 is hurting.
If it was just one of them, like Chrysler in 1979, then certainly.
Jason, whats your take on corporate welfare?
Just curious.
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:33 am)RE: Trucks, Fuelcells & Hydrogen
How to power trucks??? I believe GM has stated that BEV’s for large vehichles isn’t feasible. The Two Mode hybrids savings, as significant as they are, may be no competition for rapidly rising petrol prices. Trains and air planes will probably still be viable businesses. It’s the middle of the transportation network that is gettitng crushed to non-existence. It appears that (hydrogen?) fuelcells may be the best choice for this middle sector — especially for large organized networks.
Meanwhile Dubya does nothing — no leadership what-so-ever and our candidates for president may be only slightly better than Dubya. Bad times ahead, bad times ahead.
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:53 am)#20 Talks..
You sound correct..
GM comon… Get the VOLT to the market as soon as possible.
Jun 21st, 2008 (12:22 pm)#30 Jason M Hendler
“statik, You remind me of my old man, if you say enough lousy things about someone long enough, eventually you will be proven right. ”
Has your old man ever said this to you, “I just totally covered you in pwnsauce?”
I’ve have never got anything wrong about GM’s financials. Anything! Feel free to surf every single thread on this board.
I called the cash flow numbers.
I called the coming clean about SUV sales the day before the annual meeting announcement,
I called the further layoffs/plant closures on top of the boyouts before it was announced.
I called the top on the 100 day moving average of the stock the first of May (ask George K about it,lol)
I was the first inline to call bs on the sub 30K price
I was the first inline to call bs on the 35Kprice
I called the lowering of GM’s debt rating
I called the fiasco with GMAC and Rescap before it hit the market
What part of GM’s financials/outlook have you got right so far?
I wonder what would happen if I went back and pulled your posts and put them up to the light of day? I’ll pull a random one that you retorted against me with back in March, “GM has tens of billions of cash on hand – more than enough to get through the upcoming economic downturn” – beauty
What postion are you to call me down? You want to call me out with a random unfounded/unprovoked derogatory post?
You basically just called me some kind of board wacho that throws out random craziness that is always wrong…that just happened to hit something this time.
Well, I’m your huckleberry. We can have a credibility war if you like. Have at it! You are always over the top…and just plain mean. It’s totally uncalled for, there is no need for posts like that, and I’m a little tired of them. So I’m using this moment to say, be civil. Show me the same respect I show you.
What purpose does it serve? What did you hope to accomplish with it? What value did you bring to the rest of the people reading the board by smearing me?
Jun 21st, 2008 (12:30 pm)I apologize to the rest of the board for that post, I just had to get it off my chest, I felt I had to retort and defend myself… I won’t continue it.
Good news though, GM’s stick is ‘unchanged’ today!
Jun 21st, 2008 (12:44 pm)Statik #42 says, “I apologize to the rest of the board for that post, I just had to get it off my chest, I felt I had to retort and defend myself… I won’t continue it.”
No need to apologize Statik. Jason M. Hendler #30 was rude and personally attacked you. You have a right to respond.
I suspect he doesn’t like his own father, but was projecting it at you.
Tagamet will know better than me, though.
Keep posting, Statik. Oh, that is great news that GM is unchanged today! Thank goodness for weekends, huh? Monday we can watch it drop down more.
Jun 21st, 2008 (12:55 pm)#6 Brad G
I’ve been thinking that public roads would make good solar sites. Walmart’s large private parking lots would are another prime idea.
#8 Rashiid Amu069
Did you change your name? Naughty naughty!
#10 nasaman
I know
1) people want trucks and SUVs, and
2) E-FLEX/E-REV trucks and SUVs would be better than ICE trucks and SUVs.
An E-FLEX/E-REV truck or SUV is a step in the right direction, but 32Hwy/25City will only delay the problems associated with petroleum-base vehicles. I suppose we could buy a bevy of vehicles and use the one that fits the task. That can get expensive. There needs to be a better solution that would allow us to use only so much vehicle as the task demands. (Electric) motor vehicle sharing?
#19 Large Smile
Some of your past comments were so bitter that you lost credibility with me. This time I saw your name on a comment and skipped over it, dismissing you as a crank. I decided to go back and read your comment, then say something to you. I was pleasantly surprised to see that, although your viewpoint seems the same, your presentation was much easier to take. To me, you seem worth listening to again.
#22 Luke
Thank you for bringing some complicated numbers into the issue. I appreciate this site for its informed discussion.
#25 GM Volt Fan
I share your enthusiasm for the Volt. GM’s financials blunt my joy; could they affect Volt progress?
#27 statik
I get you. You see the prize and you see the problems. Seeing the problems helps navigate topwards the prize. I’m glad you are with us.
#30 Jason M. Hendler
I’m sorry to hear about your old man’s negativity. It must have been tough to live with. At least you didn’t turn out that way. I hope your positivity about GM navigating this difficult time comes to fruition.
I’m pretty sure Statik is on our side. We all want the promise of the Volt and E-Flex. Statik isn’t being negative just to be negative. He has substance behind his comments (and humor out front). It is hard to argue with him – logically. His leveI of sophistication and intelligence deserves respect, even if you disagree with his position.
Arch
Yesterday, that dude was too rude to you. Keep it coming brutha!
Jun 21st, 2008 (12:55 pm)#43 Rashiid
Tag is a wise, wise man.
Actually I don’t know about Monday. It may not, lol. There is alot of technical levels that where/are being pressed up against last week and especially at the close friday. (Especially thinking of the S&P).
I wouldn’t be surprised to have some kind of gov’t soothing talk going into the trade.
So I actually expect some kind of support on the short term next week. Of course I am saying that having a mix right now of 85% cash, 5% US equity, 10% Canadian corporate bonds…so my actions at the moment do not mirror my sentiment.
If it does have a breakdown again we are really going to have a ride…and not just GM.
Jun 21st, 2008 (1:46 pm)#38, Guy Incognito,
Corporate welfare? Depends on the circumstances. If our government LENDS money to the automakers, so that they can convert their fleet to renewable energy sources, then that is an EXCELLENT policy, as it solves so many problems beyond just keeping domestic automakers in business.
Giving research grants to propellor heads, who chase infeasible solutions, so that they can win an abstract efficiency penis measuring contest, is a BAD policy.
Jun 21st, 2008 (1:52 pm)statik,
I serve this site by pointing out that you only list the risks that GM is taking, which everyone already knows. You fail to provide the requisite context – Chrysler is already in receivership, and Ford is less than a year away. GM will be the survivor of these hard times, because they have worked multiple paths – E85, mild hybrids and now E-REV’s. No stone is left unturned.
GM will unquestionably receive federal loans to ride out the economic downturn, because their policies are currently in line with government policies – meeting 2007 CAFE standards while planning longterm for PFCV’s and REEV’s.
I will call you out everyday for stating the obvious risks GM is taking, given that they started out in a bad position.
Jun 21st, 2008 (2:14 pm)First, personal attacks are rarely appropriate on this board. Second, leave your parent out of this. Kinda sad.
Second, Statik is ALWAYS right (except when I say he’s not
), and his predictions add to the fun of the game we all play here: “when/IF/how much/what color will the Volt be?”. Far too many of the posts are irrelevant or giantly mis-informed (eg “How come we can’t just power it with water/hydrogen/solar cells that I read about on-line”)
So, while nudging the fellow is ok (he likes it), you will simply look stupid by comparison by using personal attacks to support non-arguments..
Jun 21st, 2008 (2:16 pm)Hi Guys & Gals
I have not posted anything for a while, but I am a little baffled by all the bashing going on.
Let’s keep it to the issue and keep up the good discussions.
I love reading opinions from the whole community. Everyone has there own view and desires. A little more on fact and a less on emotion would be appreciated.
This Static guy seems to have some insider info. I don’t know what he does for a job, but WOW he publishes a lot of facts, and most seem be on target (He/She may say ALL ARE ON TARGET, but I am not going to argue the point). As I see it, he is either a single guy with lot’s of time to research and report, or he is working at GM in a position that would emerge him in a lot of the financials of GM.
I am pretty sure I am out of the market for the Volt, at least until I hear differently on price/delivery. I really cannot afford even the $30k car, and will most likely be waiting for the 2009 models from other manufacturers. It appears 2009 may bring out a lot of options, not currently available, from many car manufacturers.
Keep it real and simple…
Jun 21st, 2008 (2:43 pm)EDIT: I wrote a whole big retort…but I said I wouldn’t…my record speaks for itself.
Jun 21st, 2008 (2:54 pm)#48 Biodieseljeep
“…nudging the fellow is ok (he likes it), ”
-Who doesn’t like a good nudge…makes life exciting. I live on that, hehe.
I just want you to know I appreciate your kind words, and that of some others, who I consider to be friends…albeit (all be it?) on the internet.
It is nice sometimes to have others defend you from time to time. Somedays being the contrarian is like subjecting yourself to death by a thousand papercuts, not today. Thanks.
#49 JEC
“As I see it, he is either a single guy with lot’s of time to research and report,”
Don’t you know? I’m a extremely attractive 18 year old girl, 110 pounds, who is very lonely…Could you send me some money so that I could come and see you?” (Aren’t we all though? This is still the internet, although possibly one of the most complex spots on it…except of course wherever Nasaman spends all his free time)
Jun 21st, 2008 (2:55 pm)Statik and his girlfriends,
Go ahead and kick up more gorilla dust, and rally around each other, when faced down, but I will be right here, day after day, pointing out that Statik is merely pointing out the obvious risks and consequences to GM’s business plan, given GM’s starting point and the concurrent economic problems of oil prices and energy trade deficits.
Statik is cheering and jawboning for GM’s demise, and he is far from some expert or GM insider divining the future. This I will also point out, day after day.
A true visionary would point out how every automaker has now announced a Li Ion based development effort, even teaming with competitors to do so, which is a result of GM’s leadership in developing the Chevy Volt. Even Toyota, which initially disparaged GM’s approach to hybrids, is now scrambling to copy, copy, copyyyyyyy their work.
You only speculate on GM’s downside risks and consequences, while ignoring their vision and leadership in the industry. You also discount the federal government’s desire to help the auto industry solve our energy problems, which in this year’s election, will be the difference in who is elected President.
I will be keeping an eye out for you.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:12 pm)ThombDbhomb, #44. says “#8 Rashiid Amu069
Did you change your name? Naughty naughty!”
Ya, how embarrassing. lol. I honestly didn’t realize that I had did that until after I posted a few comments. :*)
——–
On a more serious note, ThombDbhomb, you are right about Arch. That attack on him was really unwarranted.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:17 pm)Hendler
Enough already.
You sound like Big Bro’ with your “I am watching” comment.
Don’t worry so much about what others say, just contribute some useful, and thought provoking information.
This site can be both serious, along with a little fun (Life slips by fast, don’t get caught watching your rear view mirror)
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:21 pm)Statik, #50, I read it before you edited it. It was good.
Jason M. Hendler, #52. Three things.
1) I’m not a girl
2) I’m not statik’s girlfriend.
3) It won’t matter who is elected president. That person will still have to deal with that completely useless congress who is controlled by the lobbyists.
Oh BTW, how’s Florida? It must be really hot.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:27 pm)Hi Guys,
Long time lurker first time poster. Just want to echo the others sentiments on the statik financial reporting front. I also enjoy them. Well, maybe ‘enjoy’ isn’t the right word, but you know what I mean. Statik, I know that you live in Canada, but are you Canadian or a displaced American? Not that it really matters; just an idle curiosity really.
And a bit of more bad news on the GM stock front. I just recently sold some stuff on Ebay for a total of about $6500. I’m treating it as found money and my intention is to use it to purchase GM stock. Just a heads up to everyone as this all but guarantees that their chapter 11 proceeding should commence shortly.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:33 pm)Volt nation smack down… We grow our own trolls now.
For the record, I tend to believe that Jason has the higher ground here. Altho Statik may serve a useful purpose in keeping us attuned to the economic realities of the moment instead of floating away in some delusional balloon of idealistic chauvinism or gaeaism, there is certainly no glee to be garnered from the situation nor smugness and accoulades in being right.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:37 pm)The way for the US federal government to keep GM out of bankruptcy is to purchase Volts in advance, to be delivered in increments by 2015, at $40K each. Every 25K purchased injects $1B cash into GM. Purchasing Volts in advance creates some stability in outlook. There can be a requirement that the cars and batteries be made in NA (not necessarily US). The main negative is that these purchases will put a floor under the price for everyone else.
From the feds viewpoint it may be worth it to avoid the social consequences of a bankruptcy. From a policy viewpoint it may be worth it to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles. It’s a lot better than just giving (“lending”) GM the same number of billions.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:37 pm)GM will survive and there is no question about it. JMH #47 is correct and even if GM did get these loans (not saying they necessarily will) they will pale in comparison to the help major Japanese firms have received from Uncle San over the decadeS to ensure world domination. No one ever talks about that when they sing the praises of Toyota, Honda et al.
JMH is also correct on GM’s strategic position. One thing not often mentioned is that GM offers and will offer more flex (E-85) capable vehicles than anyone else. This is important because as Nasaman mentioned GM nor any manufacturer can ignore trucks, they’re just too important to many and will continue to sell although slower than before. Personally I think now that they’ve halted future truck development, they should continue enhancement by taking another bold step and mandating that ALL vehicles produced are flex fuel capable. The price difference between ethanol and gas is about a dollar in favor of ethanol and will continue to grow.
We don’t have E-Rev yet, and we’ve got to get there. Ethanol capable vehicles are the short term answer as the number of stations and planned stations continue to grow.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:42 pm)So that I get a personal benefit out of my wise advice, maybe the feds also could pre-purchase some EREV trucks, and then they would then be designed and built, and I could buy one too
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:50 pm)Just bought a Chevy Cobalt to replace my Ford Expedition. I decided not to wait until 2011 to do something about the situation. While there is great temptation to buy something other then GM like the Honda Civic, I thought I would show my support for GM and bought the Cobalt instead. Didn’t hurt that GMAC has 0% financing right now. Plan is to trade it in when I get the chance to buy the Volt.
Instead of all the whining and complaining maybe some of the rest of you should consider doing the same. Buying some GM stock might not be such a bad idea either.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:51 pm)Oops..forgot to post the link I intended:
http://www.wndu.com/gas/headlines/19578974.html
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:55 pm)Another way for the feds to flow money into GM that might have more political appeal is to give everyone a big income tax credit for the purchase of an EREV type electric vehicle, say $20K per person, good from now until 2015. Then we are talking about millions and millions of vehicles and collectively a significant change in gas usage in the USA. Of course, giving the tax credit will make the vehicle price higher, but flowing funds to GM is part of the goal. The credit will have to be worded carefully so that it is a tax credit for GM and Ford, not excluding Toyota but not working primarily to their advantage. it will help everyone over time, if it creates a big electric vehicle market.
But it is not going to fly if they keep up this CA,FL,NY,DC discussion. It has to be for the whole USA.
Jun 21st, 2008 (3:57 pm)#56 rs1971
“Statik, I know that you live in Canada, but are you Canadian or a displaced American? Not that it really matters; just an idle curiosity really.”
I am Canadian actually by birth. However, I had a dellusions of gandeur to become a professional ballplayer when I was young. So I started doing US tours/exchanges when I was 13 in all the southern states, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, etc.
Got a scholarship to play ball in the US and moved there when I was 18.(Div 1–holy tuition you guys got there, I don’t know how any average working class family does it, 30K+ a year? ouch).
I toiled for awhile after that, never did had a losing season. But aparently the Yankess weren’t looking for a light throwing (85mph tops) righty, lol. Go figure. Moved back to Canada (near TO).
I guess you could call me a displaced Canadian in America for awhile. My major was accounting/economics. Although for some reason my schedule always including Badminton. No kidding! It was a fluff ‘selective’, and surprisingly, littered with 250lb guys from the football team. Imagine a 250 pound monster playing against a 110 pound cheerleader at badminton…Go, go higher education!
I suspect this explains…too much.
Jun 21st, 2008 (4:03 pm)So, Statik, please keep us up to date on the badminton circuit, too
Jun 21st, 2008 (4:11 pm)Rashid,
Florida is nice, as long as you live on the water. I am on an island off the east coast of Florida. Generally, it is a few degrees cooler in the summer and a few degrees warmer in the winter, if you live on the ocean.
It rained here today, so there is a very cool breeze blowing through my condo today.
Jun 21st, 2008 (4:16 pm)As an aside, a buddy works for GM and I got to drive a Tahoe Hybrid today. Ignoring the $50k price tag it ran great. Interesting to have the engine stop right after start up and then drive on full electric.
I took it around the block a couple of times (maybe 2 miles total and up to 30 MPH) and the engine came on only once when I floored it and shutdown on the next stop. Seamless. I don’t think the EV range is much over 5 miles. He said he is seeing 22-23 MPG highway at 70. The EV apparently kicks in and out because the MPG will jump to 35 for a distance then drop back down. I need to read up on that because something seems logical. Why bother wasting gas charging the battery only to use it up.
Just a taste, but a sweet taste!
Jun 21st, 2008 (4:27 pm)#67 TBK
I have said this before, GM is the master at the large SUV. They know their stuff. The Escalade? Pure genius in the development and the marketing (which was extensively to NOT market it, just have it in ‘the public eye’). And it gives the customer exactly what they want.
GM should clearly not abandon this market. It is where GM really excels. If the housing market didn’t fall of the cliff, and the economy with it….or the gas prices didn’t skyrocket, this truely could have been GM’s piece of the pie to get fat off of and to get stronger. It’s decimation has really hurt GM (and moreso Ford) badly. The segment has taken a major haircut, and it looks to get alot smaller still…but it is still a segment nonetheless. A quarter of a piece of cake isn’t as good as a whole cake…but it’s still tasty.
The segment could still be a bright light for GM with some well placed EREVs…not ‘mild hybrids’ (they are virtual orphans now, no one is going to pay a extra $6,000 bucks to get 3 more MPGs). Even a smaller, high efficiency engine in a light truck would probably do the trick to get the ball rolling.
All those ‘truck guys’ are still out there, and they would love nothing more to have a option to go to as they turn in the keys in on their Yukons and Tahoes.
Jun 21st, 2008 (4:50 pm)A week ago Mr Lutz was quoted as saying that GM was “close” to signing a battery contract. Still no word that has happened, so I guess they were not too close. What is going on here? At this point my guess is that every week of delay in signing the contract is a week of delay in the Volt’s introduction — the car is built around it, in effect, and the battery is just too critical to go foward without knowing exactly what it will be.
Jun 21st, 2008 (4:57 pm)GM, the “mild” hybrids like the Malibu are bandaids. Didn’t you learn a lesson from the “mild” hybrid Silverado/Sierra pickups? Even the full “2-mode” hybrid Tahoe is still just a bandaid. The problem; they are ICE vehicles with electric assist. Don’t waste your limited funds making vehicles that nobody wants or can’t afford to drive.
I think I speak for thousands if not millions of CAR, SUV, VAN, and TRUCK drivers worldwide; we want EREV’s with ICE, Fuel-cell, or Battery-swap assist!
Jun 21st, 2008 (5:02 pm)It takes small steps whether it’s mild or two mode hybrid. Big trucks aren’t practical in full EV yet so using the electric to get the beast rolling and then kick in the ICE is smart. I must admit, I didn’t understand the logic of a hybrid 6.0L V8….. I figured a 4.3L-ish engine would have been better.
Not for $50k mind you but there is plenty to learn from doing it.
Jun 21st, 2008 (5:56 pm)BradG #2
This is a whole different ball game than the 70s embargo. In the 70′s the lack of oil was political and the US wasn’t near as dependant on foreign oil as we are now. Now Its supply and demand.
We had a chance to change our habits in the 80s but everyone went out and bought an SUV. In 1988, Just 20 years ago gas was at an all time high of 75 cents per gallon. Its up 6 times that amount now. And over the next 20 years ??
Still think a Volt is too much at $40k ?
There’s a set supply of oil available world wide. Of course with more and more American drivers being replaced by wealthy drivers from other countries, it won’t be long until only the wealthy can afford to gas up. If we don’t step up and buy the ev Volt technology, GM will be gone and quality Japanese cars will be priced through the roof. The only thing keeping their prices down is competition from Ford, GM and Chrysler products.
I know that American car builders have made a lot of mistakes in the past, but let’s not cut off our noses to spite our face. Buy the Volt.
RB #69
Every week of delay allows the 2 battery makers a better chance to put their best battery forward and their best business plan forward.
Jun 21st, 2008 (5:56 pm)#64 statik
I, too, tried badminton as a college selective. The class included me ( a caucasion), a lot of Asian men, and a one-legged woman. I got my cock handed to me by Asians. Fortunately, the I could beat the one-legged woman if I got her hopping side-to-side. Since she was the only one I could beat, I had to do it. She was a good sport. She confided that everyone else let her win and it seemed patronizing. She thanked me for not patronizing her.
Jun 21st, 2008 (6:14 pm)#61 Dan
” Buying some GM stock might not be such a bad idea either.”
Dan
I agree I bought some this week. It will sink for awhile but once they get the program on a roll it will recover. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
Jun 21st, 2008 (6:32 pm)#62 Grizzly
Oops..forgot to post the link I intended:
The funny thing here is that Sam’s club is the one the moved E85 into our area.
Take Care
Arch
Jun 21st, 2008 (6:46 pm)#72 Ed M says “Every week of delay allows the 2 battery makers a better chance to put their best battery forward and their best business plan forward.”
Ed — Optimistically, details are being worked out, better data recorded, and there will be fewer issues later on. Alternatively, what’s going on may be a super high stakes game of chicken between big corporations. What I hope is not the case is that there are some deep seated technical problems, so that everybody wants somebody else to be responsible for these things. Whatever, this is how November 2010 becomes December becomes January…
Jun 21st, 2008 (6:47 pm)Arch #75
We won’t have electric vehicles on the road in volumes for years. They’ll also be hard to get. The problem facing GM and others to a lesser extent is what to sell in the meantime. This I believe is a real opportunity for E85, if they can keep the price WELL below the soaring price of gas and proliferate availability. The lower they can keep the price the higher the demand will be for flex vehicles serving their purpose. If you have just one pump near you and it’s a dollar or more per gal less than gas just think what kind of emotional impetus that would be to purchase a flex vehicle. GM has the most flex vehicles available, but with truck development on hold they can divert resources to ramping up that number even as early as this fall.
Even if you don’t have any pumps in your area, you might soon. We’re supposed to get 2 and both will be within 10 miles of my house. That would definitely affect my decision to buy a new flex vehicle and others as well.
Jun 21st, 2008 (6:56 pm)#77 Grizzly — Thanks for the E85 info and link. So far as I know, there are zero E85 stations in our area of NC, which is not a metropolis but has more than 1M residents. If E85 comes here at $1 or more per gallon less than gas, that would creat a tremendous spark of local interest.
Jun 21st, 2008 (6:57 pm)Jason M. Hendler #66
I have a friend that lives in a condo on an island off the east coast of Florida. He can see Cape Canaveral and tells me about the rocket launches.
Here in Connecticut, we have to deal with the high humidity with the 100 degree days. I can only imagine that it is hotter where you are. But that breeze should help. We are going to Disney at the end of September. Hopefully it will be a lot cooler.
—————————-
Statik and ThombDbhomb, I love badminton but only played in High School. In college, I played racquetball and still do. I really enjoy that.
—————————
Ed M # 72. The problem with $40K is that most Americans can’t afford it. If they can’t afford it, they will continue to buy ICE cars until they can afford it. It must be priced for the masses in order for everyone to change. I know what you are saying. If gas goes to $10 a gallon, people will think $40K is a good price. Perhaps, but that will so kill our economy, it might not matter who can afford $40K.
The price of the Volt must come down. But I and a few others here do thank you for being an early adopter and lowering the price for the rest of us. Really….. Thank you.
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:00 pm)#72 Ed
“This is a whole different ball game than the 70s embargo.”
I agree. Different ballgame. Back in the 70s DOE put out a report that ALL of the alternitive energy technologies would work at $40
a barrel. Go back and look it stayed between $38 and $42 for some time. Then they killed us with cheap oil again. Now they have us by the short hairs. Yes we can drill and do what ever. The only way out is to get OFF oil. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:06 pm)#80 Arch says, “Yes we can drill and do what ever. The only way out is to get OFF oil.”
Agreed. Foreign and Domestic. Get off of the stuff. Period.
No drilling for more. No trying to make it cheaper again. Just let’s get off of it altogether.
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:14 pm)#77 Grizzly
“We won’t have electric vehicles on the road in volumes for years.”
We could but I agree. The thing that surprised me was that Wal-Mart was the one that brought it into the area. I mean this is IL a corn state. Oh well lots of games being played.
Take Care
Arch
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:15 pm)#79 Rashiid Amul
I used to love raquetball. I quit because it was beating my body up too much. Now I swim and bicycle with my (two-legged) housewife triathlete friends. I hope the Volt’s ride is easy on my spine.
I know we disagree on a number of things. We’ve had our differences here and there – and a big blow up once. Thanks for your small talk. It is a peace effort that humanizes people. I appreciate that you are doing the same for Jason with your Florida/weather talk. In a way, Volt Nation is like a family to me. Your efforts at keeping it a functional family are greatly appreciated.
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:16 pm)Rashiid Amul #79
“We are going to Disney at the end of September. Hopefully it will be a lot cooler.”
Central Florida in September? Cooler? Not likely. Even along the coast, September can be brutal. I’m from S.E. Fl and am now in the mountains of N.C for the summer. We will not be going back until mid to late October…when hopefully, it’ll get a little cooler. But enjoy Disney, you’re sure to have a good time anyway.
Jun 21st, 2008 (7:30 pm)Seems like the Walmart idea is good. I already buy my gas for my Honda Insight at Walmart and would love to charge up my Volt while shopping. Are all the other major stores, shopping centers and groceries listening. When it comes down to where I shop it will be where I can recharge. TED
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:09 pm)Please NO E85
Do we have to starve to understand making E85 is and will continue to starve us all. Even if its a buck cheaper well its 30 percent less efficient
than gas so its a lose lose situation. God is probably laughing at this one for sure.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:17 pm)JWW #86
Nobody is starving. Please stop repeating Oil industry arguments, it’s just plain silly. Ethanol can be made from cellulose and the process is patented.
The future is pure electric vehicles, but we have to get there. We’ll reduce oil consumption with ethanol, and then use it to extend the range of our EVs. Nothing happens overnight.
http://www.coskata.com/
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:19 pm)I am rooting for GM –
but there is no way I am buying a current GM product.
Their small car Aveo – get’s unacceptable fuel economy.
The Cobalt XFE is a step in the right direction – but not even as good as the normal Yaris.
I bought used to get me by for the next 2-3 years.
I have to admit – I *just* purchased a very used toyota tercel. The reason? It’s bullet proof and can acheive 38-40 real world mpg.
I LAUGH at the price of trucks. they are falling faster than a bag of stones.
I laugh at all the people who bought them because they “just want” one.
I feel bad for the people who buy them because they need one for work.
But honestly – in the next 2-3 years we are going to see a lot of good stuff coming..
1.) Toyota considering bringing their SMALLER car to North America
)
2.) Honda / Toyota considering bringing diesels to N.A
3.) Ford is developing their direct-cylinder-turbo-injection technology ( I can’t recall the exact name for it ) – which is said to increase economy by 20% WHILE improving performance.
4.) Dodge is realeasing their 12.5 Litre SUPER hemi which gets 1.8MPG highway ( joke
5.) GM is talking about making the Chev Beat
There is NO WAY I’d buy new right now. The timing is terrible with so much on the horizon.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:21 pm)I know its off topic, but this link provides a series of discussions with Bob Lutz on a number of issues. He does discuss Li-Ion battery technology, the Volt production schedule, and other issues related to the Volt.
Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1N2Ir64yNs
Don’t forget to see the follow-on videos.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:28 pm)I wish everybody would quit with the American car quality problem. It’s true that the domestics put out a lot of garbage in the ’80′s and early ’90′s, but they’ve learned their lesson already. All the consumer and quality tests today show that both GM and Ford can hold their own against Toyota and Honda. I own 4 American cars, with the oldest being a ’97 Ford Explorer. It was as great today as it did when I bought it 11 years ago and I have over 120K miles on it.
My cars will easily last me until the Volt is released. However, $30K is still my price point (at today’s dollars). If the price is higher, or if GM allows their dealers to place exorbitant mark-ups on the Volt, then I will likely go with the competition, domestic or imported. I’d rather stick with an America, but for those of us who work for a living, the extra $1,000s really add up!!
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:44 pm)“The time has come my fellow Americans, support GM now in these tough days, and help them bring the VOLT to market.”
Couldn’t agree more, Lyle. If we want the company bringing the Volt to survive, it’s up to us to support it. I’ll buy other vehicles from GM until I can buy a Volt.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:46 pm)#73 ThombDbhomb…a fellow college badminton player, very nice, surely you took it for the academic benefit as well (free perfect course hours over here!)
#79 Rashiid …high school badminton…pfft. Small pototoes. You probably didn’t even have your own racket. Hehe.
Seriously, I don’t want to brag, but I have a graphite racket, 80grams,with single pass stringing, it’s used by Tony Gunawan, yeah, that Tony Gunawan…one of the greatest doubles players ever.
Ok, I just made that part up…and Wiki’d that guys name. I do have a racket though…it’s blue and it came with a swell bag…the ladies really dig it.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:51 pm)RB #76
I agree with your concerns about any delay in battery production. Its in GM’s best interest to get the Volt to market in a hurry to see if the new technology meets America needs. I think there may be some other issues such as the availability of lithium for the mass production of batteries.
You folks might want to consider buying shares in companies supplying lithium.
Rashiid Amul #79
I agree with getting the price down for drivers but we might not see that for a few years. The whole thing about the batteries is the biggest question mark in my mind for getting the prices down. I’ve read that there may not be enough lithium to produce the batteries that are required. Exchanging overpriced oil for overpriced lithium would end us back in the soup. Another breakthrough in battery technology is needed so that batteries can be made with more plentiful materials.
Arch #80
I recall that $40 oil per barrel thing. It was supposed to allow shale oil production and deeper oil drilling in the oceans. But congress nixed most of those ideas. In Alberta Canada $40 oil allowed the development of tar sands oil which is now one of Americas major suppliers.
Jun 21st, 2008 (8:59 pm)MarkFFL, # 84 Thanks for the heads up on the Florida temp in September. We’ll be there the 4th week of September. I hope that is close enough to mid October to make a difference. I really hate the heat.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:04 pm)ThombDbhomb #83. That blowup we had was really stupid. We are two personalities that are bound to disagree on some things. Let’s not let it get to a blowup stage again. I’m perfectly okay with you. No hard feelings. Peace my friend.
Statik, # 91. You are too funny. I hope we get to meet some day.
Oh ya… er…..Go Volt!!!
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:10 pm)#87 Grizzle
“Nobody is starving. Please stop repeating Oil industry arguments,”
I sure wish more people understood the game here. The oil companys want you to believe that we are taking food off the plates of people in poor countries. Look in to the facts. I worked for ADM getting the first plant to make alcohol fuel plant set up. They had a problem. They had starch piles and the EPA was about to shut them down. There was NO market for corn starch. Look into it most countries they have enough starch for their people. They need protein. Alcohol does not take food off of anybody plate. The folks that feed beef after we make alcohol out of it love it. The yeast adds
a lot of B vitamins. The cows grow better. I give up. Do your own research.
Take Care
Arch
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:42 pm)#94 Rashiid Amul
Peace, my friend.
Jun 21st, 2008 (9:49 pm)Arch #95
Thanks for pointing that out. I knew that corn based ethanol wasn’t starving anyone, and the fact is the future of ethanol is cellulosic, which does not use corn but basically garbage. Please see the link I posted above.
Another oil industry falsehood is that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than you get from it. The fact is that it takes on the order of 2-2.5 times the energy to produce a gallon of gas from crude than it does to produce a gallon of ethanol from cornstarch.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:00 pm)#91 Statik
“Seriously, I don’t want to brag, but I have a graphite racket, 80grams,with single pass stringing, it’s used by Tony Gunawan, yeah, that Tony Gunawan…one of the greatest doubles players ever.
Ok, I just made that part up…and Wiki’d that guys name. I do have a racket though…it’s blue and it came with a swell bag…the ladies really dig it.”
************
Statik
“Hey ladies, want to check out my racket? I don’t want to brag, but it’s blue and weighs 80 grams”
The Ladies
“Oh yes, I’m sure its really cute (giggle, giggle)”.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:06 pm)#78 RB
E-85 is certainly a large factor in quickly reducing our reliance on oil. Go Coskata! It should be on line soon.
Not sure where you are, but I did find an E-85 station in Durham, as well as others in NC.
http://www.neare85.com/
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:07 pm)#97 Grizzly
“The fact is that it takes on the order of 2-2.5 times the energy to produce a gallon of gas from crude than it does to produce a gallon of ethanol from cornstarch.”
WOW I am impressed! NO BODY knows that! Well hang around we could become friends. LOL
Take Care
Arch
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:13 pm)Volt truck!
Put those closed plants to use – build more Volts, Volt pickup trucks, Volt sports cars, Volt station wagons (excuse me)… Volt crossovers, Volt SUVs. Don’t lay off those great workers. Keep the people to design and build more Volt machines! The people are your greatest asset.
My Chrysler croaked last week. No compression. Need to crack open the engine to find out what’s wrong, get a new engine, or get a new car. The car is old not not really worth fixing. If only I could buy the Volt today. So, must go shopping for something else. Too bad GM. Hurry up and get to work or lose the race.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:28 pm)#98 BillR
I’m not sure but I sense there might be some kind of double meaning sarcasm in there.
#94 Rashiid
“I hope we get to meet some day” – Are you trying to trick me out into the open? Are you crazy?
Maybe we’ll all catch up at the Detroit Auto Show this year for the big ‘hoopla’ on the Volt/Prius/i-Miev and 900 other, never to be driven, ‘conceptual’ green cars.
Jun 21st, 2008 (10:43 pm)Grizzly #75
PLEASE post this every week or so. People forget so quickly.
Take Care
Arch
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:32 pm)I guess a new four door Sierra 4×4 would be nice while I have to wait
to early adopt my Volt twins.
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:33 pm)We have to support GM? Hahahahahaha.
Perhaps if Toyota didn’t have U.S. plants and employees, but they do.
*Waits for GM to be bought by Toyota*
Jun 21st, 2008 (11:38 pm)badminton?
What has happened to this site????
I suppose the next thing I am going to read here is that someone wants shuttlecock holders in the center conosle of the Volt, and if they are not there, they will never buy another GM product agan and that the car will be doomed. Oh, and they read that Toyota already had planned to install those holders in the 2009 Prius…..
Lyle: I know you get paid by the advertisers on how many hits you get on your site, but can you please call GM and get some NEW VOLT INFO for us to talk about?????
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:18 am)Statik’s been right about GM financials all along. Good Statik, here’s your biscuit.
But that does leave the multi billion dollar question of what they should do about it…
I’ll take a stab at it:
The problem is that they need to come up with something very soon, and they need as much technology reuse as possible to do that. They need to make a lot of money as well, or alternately, they need to demonstrate some high and significant margins on screaming success products to convince creditors they will be able to soon make a lot of money. Their end game requires a truck that will be much cheaper to operate from a platform that is cheap to build.
Here’s how to get there:
I’ve mentioned this before (oh, somewhere in one of my diatribes
they should take the exact same \Volt powertrain and stick it in a light pickup/SUV. But that’s not enough horsepower. Add one more electric motor on the rear wheels and you should have plenty of it. Sand off the front corners of the vehicle so that your SUV isn’t a “brick” and go with that. And the first SUV it should go into should be the Escalade.
Why? Because the Hummer is too tainted to use for such a purpose.
The Escalade, however, has sort of dodged that stigma and would be perfect. Nobody really uses it as a truck, it’s more of a status symbol. They are more likely to be driven around as a status symbol than a tahoe, which is more likely to have to do some towing. (More on that in a minute).
NOW you could have eco-conscious bling and these cars would be very profitable, although not sell in huge quantities, of course.
The problem with using the current e-flex drivetrain in a truck is not the horsepower of the electric motors (that should be an improvement, really), it’s the power you need to produce from the generator to overcome whatever average average friction you have due to whatever you might be towing as well as the aero brick you are driving. Which is the main reason I chose the Escalade. I’ve never seen one towing anything, so a virtually “towless” rounded-off eco bling version with a truly massive stereo (bwaaahahhh) would probably still sell and be profitable. If that’s a no go, then you’d either have to use a different ICE (ugh, they’d never get it developed in time) or simply use two complete \Volt drivesystems, one in the front and one in the rear (but with just the one battery pack, of course). The mileage in the city would be spectacular. Probably nearly that of the \Volt itself. The mileage on the freeway would be, well, pathetic. After all, it would still be a rounded brick.
But still vastly superior to any SUV out there, today.
The second critical plan of attack, to overcome the power problem, they should also immediately work on converting another piece of tried and true GM technology to power the e-flex… The 2 stroke direct injected turbo-diesel engine. Currently, GM already sells a lot of these for EREV vehicles. Since the 1930′s in fact. And they are insanely reliable. And, ummmm, they’re like 4000hp and run locomotives, but the idea’s the same.
Easy (read cheap) to build, 2x the power of a 4 stroke, no serious emissions problems because they combust completely (as compared to gas 2 strokes w/out direct injection which is what everybody thinks of as 2 strokes)… Normally, these engines with their incredibly tiny power bands (think hundreds of rpms!) would not function in a car since you’d need like 100 gears to drive on the freeway. But that’s no problem with electric drive. Couple that with the new urea systems to combat the sulfur and it would be awesome. I suppose you could use direct injection 2 stroke gas homogeneous charge compression ignition as well, but I’m not aware of GM having any of this tech in their portfolio. And believe it or not, I’m trying to use tech they already have or are developing for the \Volt!!
Once GM got engines based on these in the pipe to shore up truck sales in the us, then they should put them into cars for Europe.
Not another car company on the planet could touch GM if they steered down that vector. And the beautiful thing is that at 2x the power density, the new little 1L “engine that could” would cover everything from Trucks to SUVs to cars because the duty cycle of the engine will determine the ‘average’ power output (and hence the mpg) on the electric e-rev platform.
Oh, and I (and several others) have mentioned it too, but using the onboard generator as a site power system for contractors is a total no brainer that would generate a lot of sales in itself.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:20 am)BillR
Great links, Really interesting Videos. Thanks
Grizzly:
Refining crude uses about 5.2% of the energy up.
So on your figures producing ethanol is about 97 – 98% efficient. I wonder why it needs a subsidy then?
Either your claim is wrong, or the process is so profitable the subsidy is not needed. Personally, I think the claim is wrong. Please provide links to back up your claim.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:49 am)NZ
Here’s one.
http://tinyurl.com/nkuk9
In this one I’m wrong, it’s a little less than twice, but I’ve seen different figures. Let’s just say it’s anywhere from 1.5-2 to be on the safe side. Suffice it to say that the oil argument holds no water.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:56 am)Rashiid says:
” #80 Arch says, Yes we can drill and do what ever. The only way out is to get OFF oil.
Agreed. Foreign and Domestic. Get off of the stuff. Period.
No drilling for more. No trying to make it cheaper again. Just let’s get off of it altogether.”
Let me second that motion… No trying to make it cheaper. Just let’s get off of it now.
Statik and Hendler, I read these posts to keep up-to-the-minute informed on when I may get a Volt, but from now on when I see your by-lines I’ll just skip right over your message. You may have had something important to impart, but for me (and no doubt others on this site) it will be just wasted typing on your part. You may swear off the flaming posts but I’ll never know, because I’m skipping them all.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:18 am)Thanks Grizzly, the key part is this:
” Now, Wang says, the delivery of 1 million British thermal units (BTUs) of ethanol uses 0.74 million BTUs of fossil fuels. (That does not include the solar energy — the sun shining — used in growing corn.) By contrast, he finds that the delivery of 1 million BTUs of gasoline requires 1.23 million BTU of fossil fuels.”
But after you deduct the 1 million BTUs of Gasoline produced, that leaves a NET of .23 million BTUs, which is still more efficient than the .74 for ethanol. However this approach still leaves Crude conversion at 77% efficiency, which is less than the ~95% standard refining margin. I guess Michael Wang was looking at the well to tank efficiency.
http://www.nesteoil.com/default.asp?path=1,41,540,2035,5187,5188
At 26% efficiency for ethanol production the subsidies again make sense.
I have great hopes for Coskata et al. so thanks for the link.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:25 am)BillR, I got three main points from the videos.
1> lots of versions coming;
2> worldwide production on LH & RH drive versions coming. and;
3> GM has very little control over their dealers.
minor stuff like the battery automation was pretty interesting as well. Wish I could have been there.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:11 am)#110RyanP,
Well,
Its a long and winding road on our pilgrimage to Hamtramack and we all hope to be there to count the Volts as they roll off the line, (and maybe hijack a few transporters.)
In the mean while a few good stories help to pass the day ,a bit like Chaucers “Hamtrammack tales”
Statik et al do a good job of that.
Peace brother…
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:52 am)NZ #111
I’m not sure I understand your point. The comparison states that both quantities of gas/ethanol produce 1 million btus. That should mean that the comparison is between equal energy quantities of both and it clearly takes more fossil fuels to produce the gasoline than ethanol. Not sure why you subtracted out 1 mil btus of “gasoline produced”??
One important point about corn based ethanol is that it is basically a byproduct of animal feed and therefore there is no opportunity cost. The corn is not subsidized and grown specifically for ethanol so the cost to grow and harvest it is moot. While cellulosic ethanol is the way to go, I’ll grant that neither is a panacea. They are simply a transitional fuel to move us from gasoline to pure electric, something that won’t be done overnight.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (3:12 am)Here’s another link I though I’d post.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.10/myths.html
Jun 22nd, 2008 (4:17 am)From AutoBlogGreen – Mercedes-Benz wants to be oil free by 2015.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/21/mercedes-wants-to-eliminate-petroleum-from-its-lineup-by-2015/
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:45 am)Saudi Arabia thinks the price of oil is too high as well. They’re afraid of plug-in hybrids, so they’re going to lower prices:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/19/news/international/saudi_oil/index.htm?postversion=2008061913
If you listen to Texas oil executives, they don’t think the price of oil is too high. Their only concern is that the price has risen too fast.
This all reminds me of the frog analogy. If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, the frog will jump out, scalded but alive. If you put a frog into a pot of normal temperature water, and then slowly increase the temperature, the frog will boil.
So expect oil prices to start going down soon. They want to boil us.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:51 am)#3 Brad G says: “DRILL HERE. DRILL NOW. PAY LESS.”
The U.S. holds less than 5% of the worlds oil reserves. All of the cheap oil, the oil that’s easy to get out of the ground, is in other countries.
I do think we will end up drilling here soon, but it won’t make any real difference in price. It’s not a solution. Don’t be fooled by the political spin of the oil companies.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:04 am)#6 Brad G says: “…does anybody know about CNG or Biodiesel home kits?”
If you have a diesel truck, you might want to check out a home kit for straight vegetable oil, SVA for short. If you pre-heat SVA before it goes to the engine, it burns just like diesel. Heat from the engine is used to pre-heat the oil. So the idea is that that you have 2 fuel tanks: 1 for diesel, and the other SVA. You start the engine with diesel, and then switch to SVA after it warms up.
Most restaurants actually pay a disposal fee to get rid of their waste oil, so if they give it to you for free, they’re saving money. All you need to do is with the waste oil is put it through a strainer, and then pour it in your SVA tank.
This is actually a hot internet topic. If you’re interested, search for SVA forums.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:11 am)#112 NZDavid
I agree with your main points, however, I thought that the battery automation portion was very significant, because it indicates to me that high volume production could bring the cost of Li-Ion batteries down by a huge factor.
Also, Bob mentioned that the introductory Volt would come in just under $40k.
For me, I also like to listen to Bob speak, as he can be quite entertainng (I liked the discussion on Toyota and Li-Ion).
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:28 am)Grizzly,
Here’s a quote from the following link about the author of the Wired article you linked to. There are a lot of better, unbiased articles out there but they aren’t quite so favorable to corn based ethanol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinod_Khosla
“Vinod was featured on Dateline NBC on Sunday, May 7, 2006. He was discussing the practicality of the use of ethanol as a gasoline substitute. He is known to have invested heavily in ethanol companies, in hopes of widespread adoption. He cites Brazil as an example of a country that has totally ended its dependence on foreign oil.[3]“
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:35 am)#117
sounds exactly like the Obama strategy…
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:45 am)Why is the GM’s logo red instead of blue on this web site?
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:48 am)#10 NASAMAN
“In the face of these financial challenges, I have to wonder if GM will decide to direct its E-FLEX/E-REV development and marketing efforts into those market segments where it has long been pre-eminent (as well as profitable) —trucks and SUVs.”
I know we’ve been talking about this for a while, especially with regards to the Provoq and Vue. For the larger pickups and SUVs, do see a Volt sized Eflex with more robust power electronics and a second traction motor prividing the additional power required, a beefed up Eflex with something like 200KW traction motor, or splitting apart the Eflex putting the traction motor in the rear while using the genset up front with the generator motor being dual mode? I think the latter is best at first blush. It would probably require a larger generator (75-100KW), but it might ultimately have the least cost.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:29 am)A couple points I wanted to get off my chest to some people saying “Good GM should go Bankrupt, EVIL SUVS!!?!?!” and “get bought out by Toyota GM”
You people championing a foreign owned automotive company (Toyota) over GM are about as myopic and short sighted as those very GM executives you LOVE to lambast. Yes, Toyota employs plant workers in the US, Yay, good for them. They aren’t union employees and make a far sight less than GM employees but “shhhh” don’t discuss that one.
How many engineers does Toyota employ in the US vs. GM?
How many R&D contracts does Toyota award in the US vs. GM?
How many critical components suppliers does Toyota use in the US vs. GM?
How many US based suppliers does Toyota use in comparison to GM?
when you answer those questions for me and all answers are MORE than GM then I will start taking you seriously, right now I view you as extremely short sighted (YES, Go Toyota! we don’t want high value battery research or engineering research, in the US! Woohoo!)
For Statik:
About two years ago GM renegotiated its dealership contracts, It was renegotiated due to the buyout fiasco that occurred with Oldsmobile. Basically if GM decides to jettison and shut down a line GM is obligated to give them another existing brand as long as it doesn’t violate its contract with another dealer. This essentially means if they shut the doors on any nameplate the dealers no longer get compensation other than the ability to sell another GM brand if it is feasible. The dealers have known this for three years or more.
And a bonus:
GM has not been financially assisting struggling dealerships through Motor Holding for about a year and a half now. They are preferring for financially insoluble dealerships to go out of business.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:53 am)For the “don’t let the dealerships screw us crowd”:
my credentials are as follows: I was in sales for a conversion van upfitter that was family owned and operated (my family) and in business for 30 years. We shut the doors last fall but I have extensive time spent in car dealerships as an observer and may I offer three tips to you all.
1) A GM dealer rarely sells a car for above invoice cost.
2) Ask your salesperson how long he has worked in car sales. If the answer is more than 6 months get a different salesperson.
3) Do some basic due diligence on the car you want to purchase, a couple hours searching the internet will give you the invoice price of a GM brand car at least.
It really cracks me up because nearly every deal I saw go out the door for a GM product was a “mini” deal. The car was sold at an invoice+holdback price and the salesman made $50. Dealership made about 4% ($500-$1,500 depending on the dollar amount) in margin on the holdback they would receive from GM.
This situation is why nearly every domestic nameplate dealership went in business with a foreign nameplate some time ago, KIA, Infiniti, Mazda, and Honda seem to be popular choices for GM dealers.
Compared to Toyota….that no haggle sales approach nets the dealership nearly 1-2% over invoice + holdback for every car sold.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:44 am)#125 Morgan:
“For Statik: About two years ago GM renegotiated its dealership contracts, It was renegotiated due to the buyout fiasco that occurred with Oldsmobile. Basically if GM decides to jettison and shut down a line GM is obligated to give them another existing brand as long as it doesn’t violate its contract with another dealer. This essentially means if they shut the doors on any nameplate the dealers no longer get compensation other than the ability to sell another GM brand if it is feasible. The dealers have known this for three years or more”
This is interesting, when forward looking on possible closures…and something I was not aware of.
Just curious, why is this directed to me? I think maybe because of the “which brand could be axed next” mini-thread inside a thread we had going?
I think I said something like, “shuttering Pontic would be difficult because of dealer network, with Pontiac hacing ‘entrenched’ dealers, close to Chevy…that it was too expensive to attempt even if they wanted too.”
I see how this would certainly be to GM’s advantage over attempting to compensate. And smart to put that into their contracts.
I wondered about this with Hummer. You would think that most ‘Hummer Dealerships” would be in markets where there is already every other dealersip (Pontiac/Chev/GMC). Most dealers have a ‘unique market area’ clause, where they have rights to a pre-determined area. What brand could they switch them too?
I would think the same case for Pontiac, it would be even harder to shutter their brand compared to Hummer, if they are closing others at the same time. I know in my town we have them all (except Hummer).
The only ‘reasonable’ out I could see would be for them to give them a ‘Saab’ dealership? (For the Hummers I mean). Not too many of those around, lol. Although, one would expect that their contracts would be to replace the shuttered brand with a ‘reasonable’ alternative…so switching over from Pontiac to Saab would certainly be a life changing event.
In the case of my area, the Pontiac dealership is the close to, if not the largest Pontiac dealership in Canada, they have a monster 10+acre lot, and they seem to win that ‘Triple Crown thing’ from GM all the time and the ‘Jack Smith’ award for top 10 dealer often. They have over 200 employees. I’m not sure what GM could do about them? They couldn’t give them a small brand (ie Saab) and they can’t give them Chev, (we have 2 within 10 miles of it–both top 10), and they wouldn’t want to lose one of their highest volume dealerships for any brand.
Honestly, who knows I guess. I’m glad I don’t work in the ‘dealership reassignment’ department at GM, lol. That job…would suck.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (9:57 am)116 mmcc
Very good link… Maybe GM will get on board.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:10 am)The thing that had my panties in a wad yesterday was Bob Lutz. Just tell us what is going on. You would think he is running for President with the way his story keeps changing.
The Volt is 30K. A few days later it break even at 40K.
We will be producing lots, no wait, a few, no wait just in CA, DC, NY, FL.
We are going to kill all our lines. Well maybe some.
2010 is the year. 2015 before you can get one.
Like I stated before, I need a truck for work. Wouldn’t it be great if I could get an American electric car that could get me to the jobsites and I could use the diesel truck just when needed?
Come on Bob, give us a straight answer and change your tie…
Jun 22nd, 2008 (10:12 am)119 Dave G
Thanks for the info… I’m looking into it…
Jun 22nd, 2008 (12:28 pm)#28 NF,
The fuel economy numbers, 26 city / 38 hwy, for the EREV are suspect. The mpg in the city should be higher than on the highway since the aerodynamic drag is low at city speeds and regenerative braking mitigates stop-and-go losses. For example, parallel hybrids, e.g., Priuses, get better mileage in the city than highway driving. The mpg difference should be more pronounced for series hybrids since they typically have comparatively bigger electric motors which capture even more energy from regenerative braking than parallel hybrids such as the Prius.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:14 pm)#131 NorthernPiker,
You are absolutely right. I think the company and whole electric auto industry for that matter, is still having a hard time coming up with a solid MPG. I guess due to that all electric range variable using zero gas creating infinite MPG. I believe in one of the other company videos, they demonstrate the EREV truck getting 138 city, 33 hwy. Again, it’s difficult to set a standard for the MPG. I think the 138 MPG was going 60 miles in the city, 40mi on all electric and the other 20mi using the range extender.
Whatever the MPG, EREV’s are going to change the auto industry for good. I’m hoping that this new truck/suv lives up to what they say it can do.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:30 pm)Brad G.
Walmart will be in the hybrid business when they buy a bankrupt GM in a few years..restructure it and slap walmart emblems on the grills of new hybrids rolling off the assembly lines in china and tiawan.. $40,000 for a volt…your done GM..game over..
Jun 22nd, 2008 (1:47 pm)Joe
Why is the GM’s logo red instead of blue on this web site?
Nobody has answered my question so let me ask another?
Do you think GM approves of changing the color in the GM logo from blue to red—especially coming from this web site? I suspect nobody will answer this question, either.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (2:29 pm)Joe, #134. I will venture a guess.
“Why is the GM’s logo red instead of blue on this web site?”
Did you notice the logo is dripping? I would guess it is red and bleeding because the article is about the stock price dropping like a rock. Or it could be red ink.
——-
“Do you think GM approves of changing the color in the GM logo from blue to red—especially coming from this web site? I suspect nobody will answer this question, either.”
I’ll try. This site is not owned or operated by GM or anyone that works at GM. GM is sucking wind at the moment. Dripping red works better than dripping blue. They’re spilling blood all over that place.
Let me add this: If someone changed the logo from blue to red, and this is the worst thing that has happened to you today, then you are having a great day. Enjoy it.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:13 pm)#134 Joe says
Why is the GM’s logo red instead of blue on this web site?
===============
Joe,
See the red drops below the red square? GM is bleeding red ink, an accounting term for a company losing alot of money.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:17 pm)#133 Jason D
At least Walmart would bring the car to market when they say they will. for the price they say…
Lutz is driving me #@$%&*! NUTS !!!
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:43 pm)Do you think we have to wait two years for the Walmart Volt? Will the cars be parked in the food asile or the clothing asile? What if the Walton’s decide to sell the car as a Sam’s Club Volt instead of a Walmart Volt? Walmart Volt – WV. That’s almost like a VW! The SCV kind of goes along with today’s naming of everything with three letters… SUV, CUV,… the list goes on….
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:46 pm)#137 and #138, I’m confused. What do you mean a Walmart Volt?
As I recall, the only thing Walmart is doing is providing charging stations. Not an actual car. They are interested in being part of the solution by allowing their customers to charge while they shop.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (5:48 pm)Brad G, #136 Thanks for describing the bleeding red ink. I was kinda thinking that but really wasn’t too sure.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:27 pm)Hey, I can see the red ink dripping and I fully know what it means. I know this web site is run by Lyle and GM has no say about it. But, my point is, why so much doom and gloom and negatives? We all know GM is not doing well, but we don’t have to dwell on it. Enough negatives are said on the internet!! Instead, have articles about GM’s new great products about ready to come out. Lyle, why not concentrate on some of those new products instead? GM is suppose to come out with a small vehicle with great gas mileage….over 40 mpg. Just from this one, much could be said.
If you want help in finding positive articles, I’d be glad to help.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (6:48 pm)#99 George K
Thanks greatly for the link to the E85 locator, and especially for the link to the place in Durham. I’m not in Durham, but I go by there occasionally. That place is a little out of the way, but I’ll check it out.
Anyone else looking for E85 might want to check the same link George K gave me, as it seems to show E85 locations all over. Apparently E85 stations may be around in non-obvious places.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:23 pm)The “doom and gloom” are mainly coming from one poster who is basically rehashing info that is already known and presenting a micro view. Quite frankly I don’t think he’s posted one positive thing on this site. It’s not just GM, he’s also made ridiculous extrapolations about the US economy. I consider it no more than entertainment not to be taken seriously.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (7:58 pm)I’ll loan GM money.
All they have to do is take a deposit from me for a Volt, and promise me delivery in the first production year.
If they made the deposit secured, I’d _consider_ close to 100% deposit.
Today one of my neighbors with a minivan and Chevy Suburban said they she wanted to get “one of those trucks that use electric power”. Well she didn’t quite know what vehicle she was talking about, but I see some anecdotal change in attitude around.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:23 pm)http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/06/sams-club-to-sell-lithium-ion-electric-car-in-christmas-promoti/
#139 Rashiid Amul
Here is the link to the Walmart EV… The whole Walmart thing started with me on a rant about how Bob Lutz keeps changing his positions on production numbers and cost faster than McCain and Obama can change to the current political polls.
Jun 22nd, 2008 (8:26 pm)To clear things up:
Walmart is providing charging stations (and if Walmart does it then believe me everybody else follows suit)
Sam’s Clubs is selling EV’s this Christmas
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/06/sams-club-to-sell-lithium-ion-electric-car-in-christmas-promoti/
Jun 23rd, 2008 (2:38 am)Drill Drill DRILL ……. even with all the stuff being worked on we are going to need a few more years of oil before it is all said and done. And yes if you think it is important we use less oil drive a smaller car. Ride a bike and lose the belly. Its all good. But most important keep the oil flowing. I like to be able to eat. This oil price situation is sending food up as fast as it is gasoline. Simply because most of the cost of food is in transporting it!
Jun 23rd, 2008 (8:27 am)#145 Brad G. Thanks for the explanation and the link.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (10:19 am)I got an idea. How about all you GM haters go away and buy your Honda or Toyota and leave the rest of us here to talk about the Volt and what we think of the car.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (11:17 am)j man
Amen. These GM haters are oblivious to the fact that Toyota’s (and several others) profit headquarters are NOT in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Follow the money, follow the money, follow the money.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (1:53 pm)#141 Mark Bartosik:
I agree. I have offered to do it in the past. No response.
#141 Joe:
I agree. I would be very interested to read about GM’s upcoming small car offerings. I think that it would be absolutely on point for GM-Volt. We need to know how GM is going to bridge over until e-flex becomes a viable economic platform. Didn’t Lutz or somebody say that they were going to bring out 15 hybrids in the next 3 years, or some such?
I doubt that I am going to wait until 2012/2013 to buy a Volt. If I could buy a 40 mpg GM car, I would do it today. It sems to me that they have the bits in the parts bin. Speedy said it a long time ago. Cobalt 1.4 turbo, 6 speed automatic, BAS (or, God send, dual mode), spiffed up aero. Or even a tweaked up Aveo. The Yaris hatchback is rated at 28 city/36 highway. The Cobalt xfe is rated at 36 highway/24 city, if memory serves. If both are under the current EPA formula, then it ought to be doable to close that gap.
If GM is coming with small cars with segment leading mileage, maybe they should publicize them as they are doing with the Volt, thus helping us to hold off from buying Japan, Inc. products out of frustration.
#150 dash944cw:
Amen.
Jun 23rd, 2008 (4:27 pm)I think that is where GM is missing the boat. They keep saying that they have so many cars the get atleast 30 miles to the gallon. I think they need to expand on that. They need to let people know that there is a Malibu, Aura, Silverado, Tahoe and Vue hybrid that they make. They also don’t talk about VVT, Variable Valve Timing that helps save on gas and is available (standard?) on the 4.8, 5.3 and 6.0 V8s as well as the 3.5, 3.9 and the 3.6 V6.
I think another way that GM is missing the boat (literally) is by not using the engines that they use in Europe (allthough they are coming). They new small car from GM (2010) that will actually be a Aveo replacement will actually be a Opel Vauxhaul) disigned car.
http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vx/advisor/advisorsearch.do?method=getCurrentSearchCriteria&vehicleType=C&source=mini
GM is moving production around to help with this as well. The new small car will go into Lordstown, Detroit Hamtramick (sp?) will get the Volt. The Saturn plant has capacity with an entire assembly line down. They are moving the Solstice and Sky from DE to Bowling Green, KY leaving DE open to a new car. GM has the ability to get a lot of small cars out in production it is just the time it takes to convert a plant to build the cars. The plant building the Volt will be down for around a year getting retooled.
As far a tweaking. They did it with the Cobalt. The played with the computer and put different gears in it to get it ip to 36 mpg from 32 mpg. Now if they could do it to the Aveo it could be getting 38 or 40 mpg. The only issue with that is that Americans are lazy and want automatics., You want better gas milage, learn to drive a stick shift!
Jun 23rd, 2008 (10:43 pm)That picture of 1100 crushed EV1′s makes it hard to support GM. The Ford Edsel was the same kind of economic failure as GM “claims” the EV1 was. Were all of the Edsel’s gathered up and destroyed? No.