Lutz: $40,000 is Breakeven Price for the Chevy Volt and First Generation Will Not Make Money For GM
A new interview with Bob Lutz taking place yesterday has been published in the Seattle Times. The article outlines GMs plans for the Chevy Volt as well as electric cars in general and contains some interesting comments from GMs vice-chairman and product czar.
Lutz indicated his enthusiasm for electric cars saying “we believe profoundly in the electrification of the automobile,” and he voted for his favorite source of energy to charge those cars saying, “the only real option is nuclear energy.”
He took his customary jab at the Japanese automakers vowing “for the first time, our well-thought-of Asian competitors will be left in the dust.”
Finally he let the cat out of the bag. We have been wondering and speculating about what the Volt might cost. Although GM hasn’t made the expected MRSP public Lutz seemed to acknowledge what GM’s breakeven price for it will be.
Although he is not directly quoted, the source article contains the following quote:
“Lutz said the first-generation Volt will retail for about $40,000 and generate no profit for GM. The company hopes to make money as it rolls out later versions of the vehicle and other plug-in models.”
Source (Seattle Times)
Popularity: 7%
(8 votes, average: 5 out of 5) 
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June 18th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
$40,000? That price officially puts it above my range.
I was so hoping that I could afford this vehicle as other electric car makers will only LEASE their cars.
Guess I have to use more gas until an electric car comes down to under $30,000 that i can purchase and that can go decent speeds.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
$40,000? That puts it out of my range too.
I will be looking for other electric cars that I CAN afford, while waiting for the price of the Volt to come down. Maybe 2nd or 3rd year???
If it doesn’t come down… then it’s the ELECTRIC Smartcar for me.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Yes, I will be waiting also.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
That is a little on the high side. I was hoping for under 35k but we still have 2 1/2 years. Lots of time, things can change.
PS - Lyle, is there a delay on tee shirt shipments? It’s been about 10 days… seems like I got the bumper sticker in 3 or 4 days. Thx, Mike
June 18th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
If they retail it at $40,000, the Volt is going to switch from a ‘game changer’ to ‘another EV-1 disaster’
Is GM intentionally overpricing the Volt so that demand will be low, in order to say “Oh, gosh, the Volt didn’t take off, I guess we’ll have to trash all of the research..again.” just like they did with the EV-1? Deflate the demand by making the car not as appealing?
It seems fishy how history is seeming to repeat itself.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
It’s not retailing at $40k. Mid $30k will be it.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
And BTW, didn’t GM state previously that they would lose money on Volt 1.0? If they price them at “break-even” then they aren’t losing any money are they?
June 18th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Hopefully the Government kicks in a rebate. They should support this.
Maybe the 20 mile version is 35K?
June 18th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
The price is bad news for GM. A vet starts around $48000. It will sell but not by the million and that is what is needed to make GM the leader. Too bad…..
June 18th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
40K$ is fine by me… As I said before, if you want a cheap 50 mpg car, get a civic or a Fit.
For those comparing to EV1…. news flash, EV1 was NOT for sales if they did it would have been in the 80K$, more 100K$ in today’s dollars.
I prefer to pay 40K and get quality, then slashing the price and get some gold old cheapo GM product they usualy to do.
BTW, for the US market, get yourself a new president friendly to this technology instead of one who would do anything to get more oil. May be you will get a tax break instead of sending troops to the middle east.
And I would also buy a Provoq for 60K to 70K if you ask me…
This is a game changer…
June 18th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Guess I can still hope for a BIG tax credit…. like $5K minimum
Now… SHOW US WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE!!!!!
June 18th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Everyone knows that tax credits will artificially inflate the price. Samething happened with VOLT. It looks like GM is trying for 10000$
Tax rebate for plugin cars that can go 40 miles. If there were no tax rebates, Volts price would have been 30000$ as originally planned.
So dont worry guys.. You will still be able to buy VOLT for 30000$.
Just be patient till the gov annonces the tax credit.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
It seems clear that GM is deciding that there will be enough early-adopter enthusiasm (or sufficiently high tax credits) that they can pay off some of their R&D with the first version, or at least not sell at a loss, as they originally planned (and as did Toyota).
They don’t want to leave any money on the table - they think that it’s better to price higher, and have the cars sell at a reasonable pace, rather than have dealers charging a premium, and people flipping the cars for profit.
It’s like a popular rock-band charging more for the tickets, to discourage scalpers.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
#4 mmcc:
As you say, 2 1/2 years until rollout. More like 3 before any of the likes of us get our hands on one. Anything can happen in 3 years. Or nothing. I continue to try not to get too worked up about this stuff.
#2 Ryan Plut:
What electric Smart car? Tell me more. 3 years is a long time at $4.50/gal and rising. Even I can run out of patience with GM.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
The early iPhone adopters got burned, and so will those with the Volt, unless they have money to burn. I simply won’t be buying the Volt for the price of 2 Priuses plus the inevitable ridiculous dealer markups. Good luck to the early adopters who will pave (and pay) the way for us.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
#10 frankyB:
Amen on the President.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
I’m afraid it is out of reach for me too unless there is some sort of tax break
from the Gov. which is problematical. With Obama a chance, with
McCain unlikely unless he changes his mind about oil.. There are still more
than two years to go, so they may yet arrive at an MSRP that’s affordable. I Hope.
They’ll sell the 10,000 but it won’t make it to the masses which is where it
needs to be.
Most unfortunate. Sorta lets the air out of the balloon.
Speedy #6
Unless I lost my ability to read, Lutz said retail for about $40K. Am I
reading wrong?
June 18th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
($30K - $40K - $50K - $40K….)
$30K should be next if their marketing department has conquered elementary school math.
we are still 2½ yrs out.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
akojim..
You are absolutely right.. See my post at 12.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
I think Lutz will keep floating higher numbers until people stop biting. They are fishing for what the market will bear.
At $40K, I won’t be buying a Volt, but I’ll still be posting on this site in the hopes that it comes down to $25K after the volume has ramped. I can wait a year or two.
Hopefully GM will come to their senses and price the car to sell higher volume.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
I don’t believe much of anything with regards to pricing from this point forward, until the actual MSRP is published. GM has already given out a great deal of information to the public, but I believe they will not reveal the actual pricing until the launch date, and may even try to confuse us in the next 24 months for competitive reasons.
I think it is clear that the technology of the Volt works. The big question was always the battery pack’s ability, and there seems to be a concensus that the batteries will indeed meet the GM specifications. Therefore, technically, the Volt appears to be a success.
Now the question becomes - will it be a commercial success? It seems that the marketplace is reluctant to adopt the Tahoe/Yukon 2-mode hybrids, and this seems to be driven by the purchase price. A similar situation may await the Volt, as the high initial investment my sway buyers to other technologies and alternatives.
I know Ed Peper of Chevrolet mentioned at the VoltNation meeting that the Volt brought some value to the consumer (more than a Cobalt, for instance), however, GM will have to weigh this value very carefully or they may price themselves out of the marketplace.
In some ways it is a Catch 22 situation for GM. To get the higher sales numbers, they must have a lower price, yet to get a lower price, they must have high volume production, and thus need the higher sales numbers.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I would love to have a Volt but Toyota will have a more fuel efficient Prius around that time too. If I could get 80 to a 100mpg out of a future Prius. Then I could wait for a future EREV.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
There are PLENTY of semi-rich greens who will buy the first volts at expensive break-even prices. To think you could make a new car battery priced affordably for the masses right out of the gate is ridiculous from every point of view. Look how long it took computers to be affordable in homes.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Good lord guys….everyone gets to whining as soon as a price is mentioned. Geeeze. He says AROUND $40. That doesn’t mean $40!!!. It could be $37, 38, 39, 41, 42……why does everyone get their tits tied up in an uproar when this won’t be announced officially for months. Get off the whine wagon and sit it out and wait. Or buy a prissy and see your hard earned US dollars support foreign investments and governments when we’re slipping into recession and feeling massive layoffs in many sectors of our economy. Enough already.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
#23 wow I’v couldn’t have said it better myself.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
For $40k, I want a caddy.
I predict it will be $38k with a $5k gov tax credit available.
We should start a pool.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
A few decades back I can remember some friends that were able to order their new car from GM, watch it being built, and drive it away from the factory. I believe those were factory direct sales? Anyone heard of this done in the past? If permitted again, it would stop the local dealer scalping on the Volt.
If the Volt will cost $40,000.00 then let the quotes come forth from the competition. Mitsubishi drop the lease plans and let us hear your price for the i-miev. It’s said to travel 80 miles on a charge (city cycle?), so if I can get 30-40 mile range with mixed highway/city, the i-MiEV will work fine for me. It’s been rumored it might sell for $25,000.
I will buy an electric, who wants to sell one we can afford?
June 18th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Looks like many people will have to wait for the cheaper gen II cars.
Still, $40k for this new technology isn’t all that bad; just unaffordable for most people.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
It is the Volt (or smaller sibling) or Transit. If I choose transit then GM looses a customer. Can GM come out with an affordable alternative to transit in time for me?
I am working to base my business on transit. I am an associate broker with Prudential Manor Homes, REALTORS. I work in the upstate communities of Albany, Schenectady and Troy, NY. Anyone interested in joining me can google my name and find me.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
start writing your senators and congressman, we’re going to need a hefty tax credit to justify the price.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
#24 Kevin R says: “Geeeze. He says AROUND $40. That doesn’t mean $40!!!. It could be $37, 38, 39, 41, 42……why does everyone get their tits tied up in an uproar when this won’t be announced officially for months”
I get my “tits tied up in an uproar” because GM said this was a car for the masses. That’s why they used the Chevy brand. At $40K, they haven’t lived up to this promise.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Somehow I find $40k a reasonable price, not that I can afford it anymore than you folk, but a quality electric vehicle for $40k seems good value, R&D costs money.
If it comes down over time, even better. My Dodge Dakota cost me $30k about 7 years ago so $40k for an PHEV is okay with me. If your financing a Volt, there’s not much difference between $30k and $40k anyways.
Judging by the fuel dollars saved it will more than make up the difference. You have to realize that after insurance and licensing your driving the car free. With 20 mile commutes the gas savings will be considerable as will the savings in maintenance.
Maybe GM will help will rebates and low financing charges so don’t get down so quickly. But if you hang onto to a gas guzzler you’ll find it worthless in a very short time.
Just think about it again.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Bob’s quote says NOTHING about what GM is going to retail the Volt for and NOTHING about any tax incentives. We STILL have no idea what these cars will be net to the consumer.
What’s the question?
June 18th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Actually, I have this thought that haunts me… The rising cost of energy hasn’t yet pushed through the cost structure of the rest of the stuff we buy. There’s recently been price jumps of 20% or more (such as Dow products and even my Dryer’s ice cream went up over 17% because they reduced the carton size from 1.75 qts to 1.5 for the same price) and the system is possibly poised for a truly massive inflationary “step” function. By 2010, $40k may be the new $30k.
Already, our cash machines are giving us $50’s (annoying $50’s!) and I remember when they started giving us (what at the time were annoying) $20’s instead of $5’s or $10’s. Huge inflation is a scary thought, but it may be coming to pass…
Hmmm, my previous number of $38k is (rounded up) 25% more than 30k. Maybe I didn’t just pick the number out of thin air.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
$40K is break even? Whew! That’s tough. Remember, $24K for a NEW Prius and $10K for a Hymotion plug-in supplemental battery pack (installed!) and that’s $34K for a new, plug-in Prius.
I think GM will need to sharpen their spreadsheets and think about taking a loss on the first year Volts to build market share. Toyota did that for the Prius and it paid off for them.
NOW, how can a fully automated production process (to make each battery cell) possibly yield a battery pack that we are guessing at is $5K - $20K per pack????????????????????????????????????
Geez, an ICE engine is a nightmare of high parts count/high precision parts. How can GM build ICE engines so cheaply yet a battery pack be so expensive? I can buy a new Corvette LS2 crate engine for $6350. That’s retail over the Internet. I don’t think Chevy sells 100,000 Corvettes a year. Do they?
Are we stuck in Tesla-land? (Tesla’s pack has 6871 cells. At $1/cell that is, $6871 JUST for the cells. Add housing, cooling system and electronics to that cost.)
Conspiracy theories anyone?
June 18th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
An article in the EERE newsletter this week about funds for PHEV development stated:
DOE announced last week that General Motors Corporation, Ford Motor Company, and the General Electric Company (in a team with Chrysler LLC) will receive up to $30 million in funding over the next 3 years, subject to congressional appropriations.
It goes on to state what the qualificaions are for the funding:
Each awardee must develop and demonstrate at least 80 PHEVs over the next three years, starting with 10 vehicles the first year, 20 vehicles the second year, and culminating in 50 vehicles in the third year.
If this is the case, I don’t see how GM can’t stick with their original 30k sticker price, which would also keep the car very popular and in high demand. If they get a third of the money, or $10 million, they could easily knock $5k off the first two thousand produced, and hopefully economies of scale would kick in shortly thereafter (not even factoring possible tax credits for PHEV purchases).
Toyota didn’t try to sock it to the first Prius owners, the individual dealers did. GM shouldn’t try to sock it to them either. I know I sound like a broken record here, but a short term higher initial price will deter potential customers long term.
The article is located at:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/enn.cfm#id_11816
June 18th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
DaveP #34
If you cut out the Dryers you’ll be able to afford a Volt and be healthier as well. $40k could be a win-win for you, heh heh. I remember paying $10,000 for a Celebrity in 1984. You could be right on about inflation.
May the force be with you.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
I’m going to keep this short and sweet, because everyone already knows what I would normally say here.
“around 40K/will not make money”
Pwnsauce.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
GM is not in the business to sell vehicles at a loss.
The bean counters know they can sell 60,000+ units per year (see Tax Credit) at $40k to the Greenies and Anti-Oil Hawks.
Looks like it’s Plan B for me with Lyle’s “Volt T-shirt” being the consolation prize… I’ll wear it with pride :>)
June 18th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
There’s no way that price for that car will every save anyone a dime. The foreign oil argument is compelling, but not determinative to people like me pissed off at gas prices.
Toyota hybrid, here I come.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
So a toyota hybrid with litum ion batteries will cast?
June 18th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I’m not surprised by the cost per vehicle. This is brand new technology, fresh from the minds of the geniuses at GM that are developed it.
It isn’t even all finished yet.
This is new technology.
What we need now is forward-thinking leadership from government. We need some sizable tax incentives that will launch this technology out of the gate.
Every dollar spent moving this technology forward will be returned to us and future generations tenfold, if only we will have the forsight to do so.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Cost?
June 18th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
43, who cares? The new Prius will get close to 90mpg, according to reports. Even if I spent 5,000 a year on gas, it would take a very long time to make the Volt a money-saving venture. It’s just not worth the money.
Not when the Prius will get nasty, nasty mileage, and come in at less than 25k.
GM is blowing this one.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
“Conspiracy theories anyone?”
No thanks.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
______________________________________________
The Lutz quote “we believe profoundly in the electrification of the automobile” is a significant signal that GM is indeed going for the Moon Shot. Lutz is doing a great job building momentum towards converting the entire GM portfolio to PHEV.
That quote made my day. Lutz will make it happen!
______________________________________________
June 18th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Volt Price $ 35k. GM will not blow this.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
#39 says, “GM is not in the business to sell vehicles at a loss.”
Ya, I also think they are not in the business to sell vehicles, Period.
Sorry guys, $40K is a niche market, nothing more. This is crap.
I may be different than many of you, where I can afford this but I won’t. I will buy a Prius first. At least Toyota has priced the Prius for the masses. Here we are on GM’s home turf, and here they go shafting us with the price. I swear every time I turn around, I see a Prius. It may be unattractive, but they are everywhere now. Why? They are priced right. They are a Toyota. They get great MPG. There are lots of them.
What is GM doing? Selling a few and those few are over priced for the masses. They just don’t get it do they. If they want to beat Japan, they have to really try doing it. But instead, they are making a stupid mistake. What a shame.
But you guys above are right. 2.5 years left. Anything can happen during that time. Let’s hope the price drops significantly.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I could afford it. I paid almost $30000.00 for my new Odyssey in 2004. I could swing 40000.00 - barely.
But - with +100k miles on my minivan, I need a new car by fall 2009. It the Volt isn’t for sale, I’ll probably go with the Honda Civic Hybrid. Yeah, the Prius uses less gas, but the Honda drives better - it’s more fun. Another lost GM sale.
But the Volt will be ready, some day, some sunny day - after GM lost billions in sales to Honda and Toyota. Bob’s in no hurry. The Volt is ready when Bob says it’s ready. And Bob’s good with losing billions in sales - really. He might move the release date up another year or two, just to evaluate paint / interior color combinations and cup holder placement.
Of course I’m exaggerating, just to make a point. Hurry them up, Bob. I want to buy a Volt. I can afford to buy a Volt, but I CAN’T wait forever to buy a Volt. Use triple shifts, seven days a week. This project should never be idle, it should never sleep. We need the Volt, and fast. Toyota’s right behind you, Bob. RUN !
( No GM executives were forced to run in the making of this politically correct, sensitive, caring, compassionate, and completely undivisive posting).
June 18th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
The 2009/2010 Prius actually looks pretty cool, sportier, particularly in black.
And again - 90mpg. ~22,000. It’s no contest, it really isn’t.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Let see how much will a toyota prius hybrid be with litium ion batteries. I’ll bet $40-50k+. Anyone please?!
June 18th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
I agree with Drake #42, I would not drive a Prius if a high quality Volt was available, . At the rate technology is changing the Prius is already an old technology at a dead end. I wouldn’t by a 2000 computer either even though it would be dirt cheap. The performance of an EV over a Prius will be staggering, that’s why people wanted to keep the EV1.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
I was just browsing around Car and Driver’s Web site and came across an article about the new Corvette. The article is not really that relevant to the Volt–other than the fact that the Corvette is also a GM car that costs a lot of money–but it does have a great first paragraph:
“We’re loving this new schtick from General Motors where they tease us with hot, new, fast sports cars and insane projected figures of their prowess—and then deliver real numbers that either live up to the hype or smack us silly by being even better than we were led to believe.”
I hope that’s also true of the Volt–especially its MPC, MPG and price. Anyway, here’s the link to the article:
2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1: Priced at $105,000
BTW, 638 hp and 604 lb-ft of torque is ridiculous!
June 18th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
GM can sell a car for $18,000, and so if the break even is $40,000 the battery must cost $22,000, or about $1300 per KWH. So if they cut the battery down to 12 KWH, the break even would be $35,000 and a whole lot more folks could buy it.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
EV for 40k doesn’t cut it.
Even if the new Prius gets only 60mpg, it still, in the long run, is cheaper than a 1st generation Volt, and the thing isn’t going to drop 10k in one year.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
________________________________________________
With regards to the $40K float price…..sign me up.
GM making a finale pricing decisssion will get down to how many EVs does GM want to sell and how much do they want to disrupt Toyota’s momentum.
________________________________________________
June 18th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I bet the Volt ends up going for around $35,000. Who knows though. GM has got to know that the Volt will sell briskly if they can it under $30,000. GM would sell out their inventories if they got it down to current Prius price levels … $25,000 or so. I would love to hear about some big developments that will bring down the price of those batteries between now and then. Let’s also hope that the government has some excellent incentives to REALLY kick start sales of this first “series hybrid” (E-REV) on the market that gets up to 150 mpg. The first real “mainstream electric drivetrain car”.
I bet a lot of the pricing will be determined by what Toyota and the other car companies have available in late 2010. It’s still too early to talk about what the price will end up being. Sure would be nice to get a Volt for not much more than the best hybrid that Toyota has available.
I think if GM clearly shows everyone that the Volt is an excellent VALUE for the money, it’ll still sell pretty darned good even if it’s priced higher than whatever Toyota has to offer … especially if gas prices are ridiculous in late 2010. They need to really impress the automotive press guys too. The Volt needs to get good reviews and ratings from JD Power, Consumer Reports, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, etc. Gotta have those good quality and reliability ratings. THAT will give a lot of the people that are unsure about this new technology that extra bit of motivation to go ahead and get a Volt.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
40K sounds reasonable to me.
Compare a 40K volt to a cheaper hybrid car (i.e. 23K Honda Civic Hybrid averaging 42mpg) over 150,000 miles.
Assumptions:
- 100,000 of those miles the Volt drives electric
- Gas averages $5/gallon over the next decade
- Electricity averages $0.15/kwh over the next decade
So over the Volt’s 100,000 electric miles, you’d use 2500 8kwh charges at $1.20 each….or $3000 total cost and the Civic Hybrid would spend $10,000 over that same 100,000 miles (Volt saves $7000). The other 50,000 miles where the Volt drives on gas, it would still save about $1000 since it should get 50mpg combined vs. 42 combined for the Civic Hybrid.
So in energy cost savings alone, the Volt is saves about $8000 compared to a Civic Hybrid….thus narrowing the price difference from $17K to $9K.
Now, if you also assume a government rebate around $3000, then you’re looking at a $6000 premium for the Volt.
So is the Volt worth an extra $6000 over say a Honda Civic or Prius? It’s debatable but I’d say it’s pretty darn close. When you consider than the Volt is likely to be a higher end car (i.e. dual touch screens) and you’d likely have to add a few thousand to spec the Civic Hybrid to the same level the comparison gets closer still. It seems plausible that when you consider the energy costs over the life of the vehicle and compare the Volt to an equally well equipped car, the price difference could be under 5K.
So is the Volt worth an extra 5K? To me it is! That premium does not include the value of independence from foreign oil and the value of having one of the coolest and most important cars ever. Even ignoring this, an extra 5K is only $1.50/day over the life of the vehicle (10 years), so it’s like giving up a coffee a day to own a Volt over a Civic.
I’ll close by mentioning that all this rambling doesn’t consider that GM may sell the Volt at a loss. If they bring it to market at $35K, suddenly your business case vs. a Prius or Civic Hybrid is pretty much square.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Even 35k is still beyond the price of most mainstream luxury vehicles. 30k is the sweet spot.
Also, what is the guarantee that, in 2011, 2012, 2013, that the Volt will drop significantly in price? The window is small, here, to beat Toyota in price. This is something they must do, now that the Japanese are committed to plug-in Li-ion cars.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
If GM can’t get the Volt price closer to $30,000 it’s because their sourcing department is doing a poor job of negotiating the wholesale price of components, particularly the battery. There are more than just two companies that can deliver a suitable lithium ion battery. ( Altair Nanotechnologies ) They need to emphasize the fact that this technology e-Flex is going to re-energize the industry like never before. They should also shorten or eliminate any exclusivity clauses from there supply contracts in order to attain better pricing. So what if LG, A123, or Altair supplies Toyota with the same battery after a year of exclusivity instead of 4 years. I’ll pay $40 for a Cadillac Provoque SUV not a Chevy Volt.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
How ironic would it be if GM jumpstarted the entire industry, including Toyota and Nissan, into buidling REVs, and allow the very reason for this spark, the Volt, to be priced so as to fall behind the other manufacturers, who were not as instrumental in pushing this revolutionary technology?
Answer: Really damn ironic.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
How many times are you diehards going to let GM bitch slap you? Didn’t you see it coming? HAHAHAHA. GM blew it again and this time they will not recover. Dump your GM stock and sell those bonds while you can. At the yearly average income in America at just over $40K, this will NOT be a mass produced car. GM knows this, I know this and you should know this. Those famous words from the past…….”Priced comfortably under $30K”…..what a joke.
There will be lot’s of competition out there by 2010-2011. Toyota, Miles, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Smart, Ford, and more I am sure. There will probably be several pure EV cars that will do most folks just fine that will be priced “comfortably under $30K”.
Too bad….. this car was GM’s last best hope.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
It’s not close to over yet, JR, but I agree with your basic premise. GM is not competing to win anymore. This brash new idea is a great one, but at 40k it’s not even close to being cost effective when you KNOW that Toyota will be getting its cars to over 60mpg easily.
Unless the cost of that battery declines dramatically, it will take a long time for GM to dig themselves out of this.
However, it took a long time for the Prius to catch fire, so, it’s not impossible.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Hmmm. My first prediction came true (That the Volt will not be affordable for the masses).
Now, for my other predictions:
- Real Volt will look nothing like the concept; in fact it’ll be closer to the Prius than the concept
- Expect delays
- Expect lame excuses from the top brass
When have GM actually deliver something that exceeded expectations?
This is a company where the top brass is not held accountable for any blunders.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Why hasn’t anybody answer my question? How much will a toyota hybrid be with lithum ion batteries?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
> #39 Plan B McFly
> GM is not in the business to sell vehicles at a loss.
Are you sure about that? When’s the last time GM made any profit?
LOL!
June 18th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
65, we don’t know yet. But I think you’re crazy if you think it’s going to be 40k. Japanese companies have lower costs and prices, almost always.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Here’s the question: When Toyota brings out its li-ion plug-in Prius to showroom floors in 2011, do you honestly think it will more expensive than the Volt?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
> #62 JR
> ”Priced comfortably under $30K”…..what a joke.
My favourite is the whole “egg on the face on Easter” by Lutz.
With such boneheaded leadership, along with Red Ink Rick, why are everyone on this site expecting so much from GM?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Toyota Pirus can come in at $25k + because it’s not useing litium ion batteries. Put litium ion batteries on that car and the price will go up. 35k. 40k, 50k.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I get that it will be more expensive, but Toyota will NOT bring a similar car to market for more than a shiny new Volt. They’re, you know…smart.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Also, isn’t Toyota going to be manufacturing their own li-ion batteries, thereby reducing the cost? Building them in Japan without union nonsense upping the cost?
I’m telling you, if the Volt is 40k for the first two years, Toyota will win. Period.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
72 Kevin
Also, Toyota actually makes money building cars, and has plenty of cash. They can _afford_ to lose money.
GM: latest rumor is that they are looking for another $10Billion in debt due to cash crunch.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
73, agreed. Any money lost on a plug-in hybrid will surely be made up by their complete Prius line, which will be robust by then.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
What a joke! GM has never liked small cars. They could make more money on the big ones. Now the game has changed and they need to make a BIG profit on the small cars. It aint going to happen. Somebody else will come up with the right car.
Right now I drive a 97 4 door Suzuki Sidekick. I paid $4000 for it. Outside of spark plugs and one set of plug wires I have spent NO money on it. It gets 24 to 25 MPG in town and 28 to 30 on the highway. I also have a 1990 2 door that has 130,000 miles on it that I pull behind my motorhome. It gets even better mileage. If GM thinks I am going to spend $40,000 for a car they will be waiting for a very long time. I have much better uses for my money. I have always been afraid it would end up like this. When people wanted BIG cars that is where GM made their money. Now that people want small cars GM thinks that where the high profits should be. So be it.
I will stick with the cars I have. It would take forever to justify a $40,000 car. I only paid $50,000 for my 100 acre farm.
Take Care
Arch
June 18th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
$4 gas is here already, with no hope of going down much.
The masses expect mid-20’s for the price of a ubiquitous hybrid.
Automakers need technology that will generate on-going profit.
Why is that so hard for some to see here? Solutions are needed now! How the heck will the development & refinement for Volt be funded if the business is continously losing money in the meantime?
Look at the components of Volt and Prius. Cost & Size of engine, motors, and controllers basically balance out. The battery is significantly bigger in Volt though. So, it will always cost more. There’s simply no way Volt could compete with the non-plug configuration of Prius… which is exactly what the current market is begging for.
In other words, kudos to GM for their effort to develop a viable product to meet the 2020 efficiency mandate, but what happens until it is available in large quantities at an affordable price?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
40K is expensive but hopefully it will not be out of my range. I would expect to spend 30k for a new car and the volt should have at least a 10k of savings over 5 years (gas, oil, parts) so that equals out.
Get this thing built.
Go GM!!!!
June 18th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
76, yep. The irony, as I said earlier, is that they’ve fired up the competition re: plug-ins, but will surely get beat at the game they established.
They’re the 2004 USA Basketball team.
They should have worked on reducing the cost of the battery until they could deliver the vehicle for under 30k. But now Toyota’s jumping in by 2011, and I guarantee they will be cheaper than the Volt.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
I disagree with all the folks that think Americans won’t buy a Volt
They want dependable high performance autos over cheaper models. They buy big screen HD TVs for the same reason. Americans like high quality and are willing to pay for it.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
don’t fret too much…….they may offer some great lease deals…………who would want to own a first run of a technological revolution………….lease one drive it a few years and promote the technology, and get an even better one after 3 years with a super lithium battrey and 100 miles all electric range……I am sure residual value on these will be quite good………..
being green and reducing foreign oil dependence and reducing emissions is not about saving money……….its about saving the planet and our economy……….so how many dollars is that worth to you……..
June 18th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Except big screen HDTVs have a tangible advantage over their smaller counterparts; you can see more detail, get a better experience.
40k cars that rarely use gas will NOT save 15k over the life of the average vehicle ownership, not unless gas is at least double what it is now. There is no tangible advantage to this car at 40k.
And again, this is assuming that the Prius plug-in won’t beat GM at its own pricing game.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Leasing is an option if they can make it affordable. Never leased a car before, but I would consider it for the Volt. I do want this car to succeed.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
We need to just cool it until we find out more. It is too early to get too excited about what we are finding out. GM knows what has to be done and they know that they can price themselves out of the market very fast.
I agee, it is going to hard not to look very close at the new Prius and the new Honda Hybrid when they are released. But, do so only if it is a have to case. Or look at other GM offerings until the Volt is released.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
The chevrolet Volt won’t be 40k. I know toyota will produceing there own lithium ion batteries , but in two years they will have a hybrid with litium ion batteries at 25k? I don’t think so.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
When I met Ed Peper (Chevy president) at Volt Nation that was precisely the price I told him that if the Volt was priced higher than I would likely go with alternatives like plugin conversions. So I’m in at that price. By 2010 there will be Saturn Vue plugin and likely an after market bigger battery by third party conversion shops. The problem with most hybrid conversions is that top EV speed is limited, whereas top speed for 2 mode hybrid (like Vue) will likely be much higher on EV only. An Escape hybrid converted to plugin is about $40K and a bigger vehicle, but not really made for plugin vehicle.
There will almost certainly be tax rebates too. Although Ed made it clear that he was hoping for $40K after rebates. Ed was almost trying to squeeze a little more out of me even though it was 30 months until the sale.
I also offered him a $10K check as deposit against a Volt returnable on only two conditions, delivery by 1 March 2011, and msrp of $40K or less for the base model.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
> #79 Ed M
> I disagree with all the folks that think Americans won’t buy a Volt
$40,000 for what is basically a Cobalt skin, an econobox?
Granted, underneath, the drivetrain is completely different, but when buying cars, most people (not car nuts) generally look at size and style and price.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Have-to case? Or how about, I don’t WANT to pay extra for a vehicle that saves no money?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Leasing is NO option for me. Thank you.
Their original statement was “Comfortably under $30,000″ which WOULD have made this car affordable to a lot of people, and would have made it a game changer.
But, if they are saying now they have to sell it near $40,000, then they can’t deliver on their “Comfortably under $30,000″ statement they made.
At $40,000, this car goes from ‘moon shot’ to ‘niche’ vehicle.
I mean, are they really serious about mass producing the Volt? At 40K, it doesn’t seem like it.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
> #80 Brent
> they may offer some great lease deals
Great lease deals require a great resale value or a company with deep pockets to subsidize the said deal.
GM is not really known for either.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
A few weeks ago, the Hawaii Democratic party passed a resolution introducing a novel approach to financing PHEV batteries. The revenue neutral approach is not a subsidy. Assuming the cost of the batteries is $1 per watt, the customer would buy the Volt at $24,000. Electricity used to recharge the vehicle has a surcharge added to it, making it’s fuel cost equivalent to $3.80 gas. The surcharge is used to recover the $16K “loan” for the battery. Although technical decisions would be left to the utilities and the manufacturer’s battery engineers, the likely scheme for metering and any grid management features would use an EVDO chip. (Such features might include optimizing night recharge loading or even grid stabilization local power boosting). Surcharges are aggregated and paid out at a constant rate to the lenders regardless whether individual customers where low mileage drivers. The “loan” travels with the ownership of the car until the cost of the battery is recovered. Our state is tiny, but such a program could become a trial for a national program. Possibly GM and GMAC would be interested in submitting supporting letters to the legislative committees charged with im