Jun 18
Lutz: $40,000 is Breakeven Price for the Chevy Volt and First Generation Will Not Make Money For GM
A new interview with Bob Lutz taking place yesterday has been published in the Seattle Times. The article outlines GMs plans for the Chevy Volt as well as electric cars in general and contains some interesting comments from GMs vice-chairman and product czar.
Lutz indicated his enthusiasm for electric cars saying “we believe profoundly in the electrification of the automobile,” and he voted for his favorite source of energy to charge those cars saying, “the only real option is nuclear energy.”
He took his customary jab at the Japanese automakers vowing “for the first time, our well-thought-of Asian competitors will be left in the dust.”
Finally he let the cat out of the bag. We have been wondering and speculating about what the Volt might cost. Although GM hasn’t made the expected MRSP public Lutz seemed to acknowledge what GM’s breakeven price for it will be.
Although he is not directly quoted, the source article contains the following quote:
“Lutz said the first-generation Volt will retail for about $40,000 and generate no profit for GM. The company hopes to make money as it rolls out later versions of the vehicle and other plug-in models.”
Source (Seattle Times)
This entry was posted on Wednesday, June 18th, 2008 at 5:40 pm and is filed under Financial. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Jun 18th, 2008 (5:44 pm)$40,000? That price officially puts it above my range.
I was so hoping that I could afford this vehicle as other electric car makers will only LEASE their cars.
Guess I have to use more gas until an electric car comes down to under $30,000 that i can purchase and that can go decent speeds.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (5:54 pm)$40,000? That puts it out of my range too.
I will be looking for other electric cars that I CAN afford, while waiting for the price of the Volt to come down. Maybe 2nd or 3rd year???
If it doesn’t come down… then it’s the ELECTRIC Smartcar for me.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (5:54 pm)Yes, I will be waiting also.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:00 pm)That is a little on the high side. I was hoping for under 35k but we still have 2 1/2 years. Lots of time, things can change.
PS – Lyle, is there a delay on tee shirt shipments? It’s been about 10 days… seems like I got the bumper sticker in 3 or 4 days. Thx, Mike
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:01 pm)If they retail it at $40,000, the Volt is going to switch from a ‘game changer’ to ‘another EV-1 disaster’
Is GM intentionally overpricing the Volt so that demand will be low, in order to say “Oh, gosh, the Volt didn’t take off, I guess we’ll have to trash all of the research..again.” just like they did with the EV-1? Deflate the demand by making the car not as appealing?
It seems fishy how history is seeming to repeat itself.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:05 pm)It’s not retailing at $40k. Mid $30k will be it.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:07 pm)And BTW, didn’t GM state previously that they would lose money on Volt 1.0? If they price them at “break-even” then they aren’t losing any money are they?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:11 pm)Hopefully the Government kicks in a rebate. They should support this.
Maybe the 20 mile version is 35K?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:13 pm)The price is bad news for GM. A vet starts around $48000. It will sell but not by the million and that is what is needed to make GM the leader. Too bad…..
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:14 pm)40K$ is fine by me… As I said before, if you want a cheap 50 mpg car, get a civic or a Fit.
For those comparing to EV1…. news flash, EV1 was NOT for sales if they did it would have been in the 80K$, more 100K$ in today’s dollars.
I prefer to pay 40K and get quality, then slashing the price and get some gold old cheapo GM product they usualy to do.
BTW, for the US market, get yourself a new president friendly to this technology instead of one who would do anything to get more oil. May be you will get a tax break instead of sending troops to the middle east.
And I would also buy a Provoq for 60K to 70K if you ask me…
This is a game changer…
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:19 pm)Guess I can still hope for a BIG tax credit…. like $5K minimum
Now… SHOW US WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE!!!!!
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:22 pm)Everyone knows that tax credits will artificially inflate the price. Samething happened with VOLT. It looks like GM is trying for 10000$
Tax rebate for plugin cars that can go 40 miles. If there were no tax rebates, Volts price would have been 30000$ as originally planned.
So dont worry guys.. You will still be able to buy VOLT for 30000$.
Just be patient till the gov annonces the tax credit.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:22 pm)It seems clear that GM is deciding that there will be enough early-adopter enthusiasm (or sufficiently high tax credits) that they can pay off some of their R&D with the first version, or at least not sell at a loss, as they originally planned (and as did Toyota).
They don’t want to leave any money on the table – they think that it’s better to price higher, and have the cars sell at a reasonable pace, rather than have dealers charging a premium, and people flipping the cars for profit.
It’s like a popular rock-band charging more for the tickets, to discourage scalpers.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:24 pm)#4 mmcc:
As you say, 2 1/2 years until rollout. More like 3 before any of the likes of us get our hands on one. Anything can happen in 3 years. Or nothing. I continue to try not to get too worked up about this stuff.
#2 Ryan Plut:
What electric Smart car? Tell me more. 3 years is a long time at $4.50/gal and rising. Even I can run out of patience with GM.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:25 pm)The early iPhone adopters got burned, and so will those with the Volt, unless they have money to burn. I simply won’t be buying the Volt for the price of 2 Priuses plus the inevitable ridiculous dealer markups. Good luck to the early adopters who will pave (and pay) the way for us.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:27 pm)#10 frankyB:
Amen on the President.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:29 pm)I’m afraid it is out of reach for me too unless there is some sort of tax break
from the Gov. which is problematical. With Obama a chance, with
McCain unlikely unless he changes his mind about oil.. There are still more
than two years to go, so they may yet arrive at an MSRP that’s affordable. I Hope.
They’ll sell the 10,000 but it won’t make it to the masses which is where it
needs to be.
Most unfortunate. Sorta lets the air out of the balloon.
Speedy #6
Unless I lost my ability to read, Lutz said retail for about $40K. Am I
reading wrong?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:30 pm)($30K – $40K – $50K – $40K….)
$30K should be next if their marketing department has conquered elementary school math.
we are still 2½ yrs out.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:34 pm)akojim..
You are absolutely right.. See my post at 12.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:36 pm)I think Lutz will keep floating higher numbers until people stop biting. They are fishing for what the market will bear.
At $40K, I won’t be buying a Volt, but I’ll still be posting on this site in the hopes that it comes down to $25K after the volume has ramped. I can wait a year or two.
Hopefully GM will come to their senses and price the car to sell higher volume.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:41 pm)I don’t believe much of anything with regards to pricing from this point forward, until the actual MSRP is published. GM has already given out a great deal of information to the public, but I believe they will not reveal the actual pricing until the launch date, and may even try to confuse us in the next 24 months for competitive reasons.
I think it is clear that the technology of the Volt works. The big question was always the battery pack’s ability, and there seems to be a concensus that the batteries will indeed meet the GM specifications. Therefore, technically, the Volt appears to be a success.
Now the question becomes – will it be a commercial success? It seems that the marketplace is reluctant to adopt the Tahoe/Yukon 2-mode hybrids, and this seems to be driven by the purchase price. A similar situation may await the Volt, as the high initial investment my sway buyers to other technologies and alternatives.
I know Ed Peper of Chevrolet mentioned at the VoltNation meeting that the Volt brought some value to the consumer (more than a Cobalt, for instance), however, GM will have to weigh this value very carefully or they may price themselves out of the marketplace.
In some ways it is a Catch 22 situation for GM. To get the higher sales numbers, they must have a lower price, yet to get a lower price, they must have high volume production, and thus need the higher sales numbers.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:42 pm)I would love to have a Volt but Toyota will have a more fuel efficient Prius around that time too. If I could get 80 to a 100mpg out of a future Prius. Then I could wait for a future EREV.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:43 pm)There are PLENTY of semi-rich greens who will buy the first volts at expensive break-even prices. To think you could make a new car battery priced affordably for the masses right out of the gate is ridiculous from every point of view. Look how long it took computers to be affordable in homes.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:52 pm)Good lord guys….everyone gets to whining as soon as a price is mentioned. Geeeze. He says AROUND $40. That doesn’t mean $40!!!. It could be $37, 38, 39, 41, 42……why does everyone get their tits tied up in an uproar when this won’t be announced officially for months. Get off the whine wagon and sit it out and wait. Or buy a prissy and see your hard earned US dollars support foreign investments and governments when we’re slipping into recession and feeling massive layoffs in many sectors of our economy. Enough already.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:55 pm)#23 wow I’v couldn’t have said it better myself.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (6:59 pm)For $40k, I want a caddy.
I predict it will be $38k with a $5k gov tax credit available.
We should start a pool.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:00 pm)A few decades back I can remember some friends that were able to order their new car from GM, watch it being built, and drive it away from the factory. I believe those were factory direct sales? Anyone heard of this done in the past? If permitted again, it would stop the local dealer scalping on the Volt.
If the Volt will cost $40,000.00 then let the quotes come forth from the competition. Mitsubishi drop the lease plans and let us hear your price for the i-miev. It’s said to travel 80 miles on a charge (city cycle?), so if I can get 30-40 mile range with mixed highway/city, the i-MiEV will work fine for me. It’s been rumored it might sell for $25,000.
I will buy an electric, who wants to sell one we can afford?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:04 pm)Looks like many people will have to wait for the cheaper gen II cars.
Still, $40k for this new technology isn’t all that bad; just unaffordable for most people.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:10 pm)It is the Volt (or smaller sibling) or Transit. If I choose transit then GM looses a customer. Can GM come out with an affordable alternative to transit in time for me?
I am working to base my business on transit. I am an associate broker with Prudential Manor Homes, REALTORS. I work in the upstate communities of Albany, Schenectady and Troy, NY. Anyone interested in joining me can google my name and find me.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:12 pm)start writing your senators and congressman, we’re going to need a hefty tax credit to justify the price.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:14 pm)#24 Kevin R says: “Geeeze. He says AROUND $40. That doesn’t mean $40!!!. It could be $37, 38, 39, 41, 42……why does everyone get their tits tied up in an uproar when this won’t be announced officially for months”
I get my “tits tied up in an uproar” because GM said this was a car for the masses. That’s why they used the Chevy brand. At $40K, they haven’t lived up to this promise.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:14 pm)Somehow I find $40k a reasonable price, not that I can afford it anymore than you folk, but a quality electric vehicle for $40k seems good value, R&D costs money.
If it comes down over time, even better. My Dodge Dakota cost me $30k about 7 years ago so $40k for an PHEV is okay with me. If your financing a Volt, there’s not much difference between $30k and $40k anyways.
Judging by the fuel dollars saved it will more than make up the difference. You have to realize that after insurance and licensing your driving the car free. With 20 mile commutes the gas savings will be considerable as will the savings in maintenance.
Maybe GM will help will rebates and low financing charges so don’t get down so quickly. But if you hang onto to a gas guzzler you’ll find it worthless in a very short time.
Just think about it again.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:16 pm)Bob’s quote says NOTHING about what GM is going to retail the Volt for and NOTHING about any tax incentives. We STILL have no idea what these cars will be net to the consumer.
What’s the question?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:18 pm)Actually, I have this thought that haunts me… The rising cost of energy hasn’t yet pushed through the cost structure of the rest of the stuff we buy. There’s recently been price jumps of 20% or more (such as Dow products and even my Dryer’s ice cream went up over 17% because they reduced the carton size from 1.75 qts to 1.5 for the same price) and the system is possibly poised for a truly massive inflationary “step” function. By 2010, $40k may be the new $30k.
Already, our cash machines are giving us $50’s (annoying $50’s!) and I remember when they started giving us (what at the time were annoying) $20’s instead of $5’s or $10’s. Huge inflation is a scary thought, but it may be coming to pass…
Hmmm, my previous number of $38k is (rounded up) 25% more than 30k. Maybe I didn’t just pick the number out of thin air.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:26 pm)$40K is break even? Whew! That’s tough. Remember, $24K for a NEW Prius and $10K for a Hymotion plug-in supplemental battery pack (installed!) and that’s $34K for a new, plug-in Prius.
I think GM will need to sharpen their spreadsheets and think about taking a loss on the first year Volts to build market share. Toyota did that for the Prius and it paid off for them.
NOW, how can a fully automated production process (to make each battery cell) possibly yield a battery pack that we are guessing at is $5K – $20K per pack????????????????????????????????????
Geez, an ICE engine is a nightmare of high parts count/high precision parts. How can GM build ICE engines so cheaply yet a battery pack be so expensive? I can buy a new Corvette LS2 crate engine for $6350. That’s retail over the Internet. I don’t think Chevy sells 100,000 Corvettes a year. Do they?
Are we stuck in Tesla-land? (Tesla’s pack has 6871 cells. At $1/cell that is, $6871 JUST for the cells. Add housing, cooling system and electronics to that cost.)
Conspiracy theories anyone?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:30 pm)An article in the EERE newsletter this week about funds for PHEV development stated:
DOE announced last week that General Motors Corporation, Ford Motor Company, and the General Electric Company (in a team with Chrysler LLC) will receive up to $30 million in funding over the next 3 years, subject to congressional appropriations.
It goes on to state what the qualificaions are for the funding:
Each awardee must develop and demonstrate at least 80 PHEVs over the next three years, starting with 10 vehicles the first year, 20 vehicles the second year, and culminating in 50 vehicles in the third year.
If this is the case, I don’t see how GM can’t stick with their original 30k sticker price, which would also keep the car very popular and in high demand. If they get a third of the money, or $10 million, they could easily knock $5k off the first two thousand produced, and hopefully economies of scale would kick in shortly thereafter (not even factoring possible tax credits for PHEV purchases).
Toyota didn’t try to sock it to the first Prius owners, the individual dealers did. GM shouldn’t try to sock it to them either. I know I sound like a broken record here, but a short term higher initial price will deter potential customers long term.
The article is located at:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/enn.cfm#id_11816
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:32 pm)DaveP #34
If you cut out the Dryers you’ll be able to afford a Volt and be healthier as well. $40k could be a win-win for you, heh heh. I remember paying $10,000 for a Celebrity in 1984. You could be right on about inflation.
May the force be with you.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:46 pm)I’m going to keep this short and sweet, because everyone already knows what I would normally say here.
“around 40K/will not make money”
Pwnsauce.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (7:55 pm)GM is not in the business to sell vehicles at a loss.
The bean counters know they can sell 60,000+ units per year (see Tax Credit) at $40k to the Greenies and Anti-Oil Hawks.
Looks like it’s Plan B for me with Lyle’s “Volt T-shirt” being the consolation prize… I’ll wear it with pride :>)
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:02 pm)There’s no way that price for that car will every save anyone a dime. The foreign oil argument is compelling, but not determinative to people like me pissed off at gas prices.
Toyota hybrid, here I come.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:05 pm)So a toyota hybrid with litum ion batteries will cast?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:05 pm)I’m not surprised by the cost per vehicle. This is brand new technology, fresh from the minds of the geniuses at GM that are developed it.
It isn’t even all finished yet.
This is new technology.
What we need now is forward-thinking leadership from government. We need some sizable tax incentives that will launch this technology out of the gate.
Every dollar spent moving this technology forward will be returned to us and future generations tenfold, if only we will have the forsight to do so.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:05 pm)Cost?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:11 pm)43, who cares? The new Prius will get close to 90mpg, according to reports. Even if I spent 5,000 a year on gas, it would take a very long time to make the Volt a money-saving venture. It’s just not worth the money.
Not when the Prius will get nasty, nasty mileage, and come in at less than 25k.
GM is blowing this one.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:12 pm)“Conspiracy theories anyone?”
No thanks.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:19 pm)______________________________________________
The Lutz quote “we believe profoundly in the electrification of the automobile” is a significant signal that GM is indeed going for the Moon Shot. Lutz is doing a great job building momentum towards converting the entire GM portfolio to PHEV.
That quote made my day. Lutz will make it happen!
______________________________________________
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:22 pm)Volt Price $ 35k. GM will not blow this.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:23 pm)#39 says, “GM is not in the business to sell vehicles at a loss.”
Ya, I also think they are not in the business to sell vehicles, Period.
Sorry guys, $40K is a niche market, nothing more. This is crap.
I may be different than many of you, where I can afford this but I won’t. I will buy a Prius first. At least Toyota has priced the Prius for the masses. Here we are on GM’s home turf, and here they go shafting us with the price. I swear every time I turn around, I see a Prius. It may be unattractive, but they are everywhere now. Why? They are priced right. They are a Toyota. They get great MPG. There are lots of them.
What is GM doing? Selling a few and those few are over priced for the masses. They just don’t get it do they. If they want to beat Japan, they have to really try doing it. But instead, they are making a stupid mistake. What a shame.
But you guys above are right. 2.5 years left. Anything can happen during that time. Let’s hope the price drops significantly.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:24 pm)I could afford it. I paid almost $30000.00 for my new Odyssey in 2004. I could swing 40000.00 – barely.
But – with +100k miles on my minivan, I need a new car by fall 2009. It the Volt isn’t for sale, I’ll probably go with the Honda Civic Hybrid. Yeah, the Prius uses less gas, but the Honda drives better – it’s more fun. Another lost GM sale.
But the Volt will be ready, some day, some sunny day – after GM lost billions in sales to Honda and Toyota. Bob’s in no hurry. The Volt is ready when Bob says it’s ready. And Bob’s good with losing billions in sales – really. He might move the release date up another year or two, just to evaluate paint / interior color combinations and cup holder placement.
Of course I’m exaggerating, just to make a point. Hurry them up, Bob. I want to buy a Volt. I can afford to buy a Volt, but I CAN’T wait forever to buy a Volt. Use triple shifts, seven days a week. This project should never be idle, it should never sleep. We need the Volt, and fast. Toyota’s right behind you, Bob. RUN !
( No GM executives were forced to run in the making of this politically correct, sensitive, caring, compassionate, and completely undivisive posting).
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:32 pm)The 2009/2010 Prius actually looks pretty cool, sportier, particularly in black.
And again – 90mpg. ~22,000. It’s no contest, it really isn’t.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:33 pm)Let see how much will a toyota prius hybrid be with litium ion batteries. I’ll bet $40-50k+. Anyone please?!
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:34 pm)I agree with Drake #42, I would not drive a Prius if a high quality Volt was available, . At the rate technology is changing the Prius is already an old technology at a dead end. I wouldn’t by a 2000 computer either even though it would be dirt cheap. The performance of an EV over a Prius will be staggering, that’s why people wanted to keep the EV1.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:37 pm)I was just browsing around Car and Driver’s Web site and came across an article about the new Corvette. The article is not really that relevant to the Volt–other than the fact that the Corvette is also a GM car that costs a lot of money–but it does have a great first paragraph:
“We’re loving this new schtick from General Motors where they tease us with hot, new, fast sports cars and insane projected figures of their prowess—and then deliver real numbers that either live up to the hype or smack us silly by being even better than we were led to believe.”
I hope that’s also true of the Volt–especially its MPC, MPG and price. Anyway, here’s the link to the article:
2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1: Priced at $105,000
BTW, 638 hp and 604 lb-ft of torque is ridiculous!
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:37 pm)GM can sell a car for $18,000, and so if the break even is $40,000 the battery must cost $22,000, or about $1300 per KWH. So if they cut the battery down to 12 KWH, the break even would be $35,000 and a whole lot more folks could buy it.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:38 pm)EV for 40k doesn’t cut it.
Even if the new Prius gets only 60mpg, it still, in the long run, is cheaper than a 1st generation Volt, and the thing isn’t going to drop 10k in one year.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:39 pm)________________________________________________
With regards to the $40K float price…..sign me up.
GM making a finale pricing decisssion will get down to how many EVs does GM want to sell and how much do they want to disrupt Toyota’s momentum.
________________________________________________
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:41 pm)I bet the Volt ends up going for around $35,000. Who knows though. GM has got to know that the Volt will sell briskly if they can it under $30,000. GM would sell out their inventories if they got it down to current Prius price levels … $25,000 or so. I would love to hear about some big developments that will bring down the price of those batteries between now and then. Let’s also hope that the government has some excellent incentives to REALLY kick start sales of this first “series hybrid” (E-REV) on the market that gets up to 150 mpg. The first real “mainstream electric drivetrain car”.
I bet a lot of the pricing will be determined by what Toyota and the other car companies have available in late 2010. It’s still too early to talk about what the price will end up being. Sure would be nice to get a Volt for not much more than the best hybrid that Toyota has available.
I think if GM clearly shows everyone that the Volt is an excellent VALUE for the money, it’ll still sell pretty darned good even if it’s priced higher than whatever Toyota has to offer … especially if gas prices are ridiculous in late 2010. They need to really impress the automotive press guys too. The Volt needs to get good reviews and ratings from JD Power, Consumer Reports, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, etc. Gotta have those good quality and reliability ratings. THAT will give a lot of the people that are unsure about this new technology that extra bit of motivation to go ahead and get a Volt.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:46 pm)40K sounds reasonable to me.
Compare a 40K volt to a cheaper hybrid car (i.e. 23K Honda Civic Hybrid averaging 42mpg) over 150,000 miles.
Assumptions:
– 100,000 of those miles the Volt drives electric
– Gas averages $5/gallon over the next decade
– Electricity averages $0.15/kwh over the next decade
So over the Volt’s 100,000 electric miles, you’d use 2500 8kwh charges at $1.20 each….or $3000 total cost and the Civic Hybrid would spend $10,000 over that same 100,000 miles (Volt saves $7000). The other 50,000 miles where the Volt drives on gas, it would still save about $1000 since it should get 50mpg combined vs. 42 combined for the Civic Hybrid.
So in energy cost savings alone, the Volt is saves about $8000 compared to a Civic Hybrid….thus narrowing the price difference from $17K to $9K.
Now, if you also assume a government rebate around $3000, then you’re looking at a $6000 premium for the Volt.
So is the Volt worth an extra $6000 over say a Honda Civic or Prius? It’s debatable but I’d say it’s pretty darn close. When you consider than the Volt is likely to be a higher end car (i.e. dual touch screens) and you’d likely have to add a few thousand to spec the Civic Hybrid to the same level the comparison gets closer still. It seems plausible that when you consider the energy costs over the life of the vehicle and compare the Volt to an equally well equipped car, the price difference could be under 5K.
So is the Volt worth an extra 5K? To me it is! That premium does not include the value of independence from foreign oil and the value of having one of the coolest and most important cars ever. Even ignoring this, an extra 5K is only $1.50/day over the life of the vehicle (10 years), so it’s like giving up a coffee a day to own a Volt over a Civic.
I’ll close by mentioning that all this rambling doesn’t consider that GM may sell the Volt at a loss. If they bring it to market at $35K, suddenly your business case vs. a Prius or Civic Hybrid is pretty much square.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:46 pm)Even 35k is still beyond the price of most mainstream luxury vehicles. 30k is the sweet spot.
Also, what is the guarantee that, in 2011, 2012, 2013, that the Volt will drop significantly in price? The window is small, here, to beat Toyota in price. This is something they must do, now that the Japanese are committed to plug-in Li-ion cars.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:46 pm)If GM can’t get the Volt price closer to $30,000 it’s because their sourcing department is doing a poor job of negotiating the wholesale price of components, particularly the battery. There are more than just two companies that can deliver a suitable lithium ion battery. ( Altair Nanotechnologies ) They need to emphasize the fact that this technology e-Flex is going to re-energize the industry like never before. They should also shorten or eliminate any exclusivity clauses from there supply contracts in order to attain better pricing. So what if LG, A123, or Altair supplies Toyota with the same battery after a year of exclusivity instead of 4 years. I’ll pay $40 for a Cadillac Provoque SUV not a Chevy Volt.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:55 pm)How ironic would it be if GM jumpstarted the entire industry, including Toyota and Nissan, into buidling REVs, and allow the very reason for this spark, the Volt, to be priced so as to fall behind the other manufacturers, who were not as instrumental in pushing this revolutionary technology?
Answer: Really damn ironic.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (8:59 pm)How many times are you diehards going to let GM bitch slap you? Didn’t you see it coming? HAHAHAHA. GM blew it again and this time they will not recover. Dump your GM stock and sell those bonds while you can. At the yearly average income in America at just over $40K, this will NOT be a mass produced car. GM knows this, I know this and you should know this. Those famous words from the past…….”Priced comfortably under $30K”…..what a joke.
There will be lot’s of competition out there by 2010-2011. Toyota, Miles, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Smart, Ford, and more I am sure. There will probably be several pure EV cars that will do most folks just fine that will be priced “comfortably under $30K”.
Too bad….. this car was GM’s last best hope.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:02 pm)It’s not close to over yet, JR, but I agree with your basic premise. GM is not competing to win anymore. This brash new idea is a great one, but at 40k it’s not even close to being cost effective when you KNOW that Toyota will be getting its cars to over 60mpg easily.
Unless the cost of that battery declines dramatically, it will take a long time for GM to dig themselves out of this.
However, it took a long time for the Prius to catch fire, so, it’s not impossible.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:04 pm)Hmmm. My first prediction came true (That the Volt will not be affordable for the masses).
Now, for my other predictions:
- Real Volt will look nothing like the concept; in fact it’ll be closer to the Prius than the concept
- Expect delays
- Expect lame excuses from the top brass
When have GM actually deliver something that exceeded expectations?
This is a company where the top brass is not held accountable for any blunders.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:07 pm)Why hasn’t anybody answer my question? How much will a toyota hybrid be with lithum ion batteries?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:09 pm)> #39 Plan B McFly
> GM is not in the business to sell vehicles at a loss.
Are you sure about that? When’s the last time GM made any profit?
LOL!
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:11 pm)65, we don’t know yet. But I think you’re crazy if you think it’s going to be 40k. Japanese companies have lower costs and prices, almost always.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:12 pm)Here’s the question: When Toyota brings out its li-ion plug-in Prius to showroom floors in 2011, do you honestly think it will more expensive than the Volt?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:18 pm)> #62 JR
> ”Priced comfortably under $30K”…..what a joke.
My favourite is the whole “egg on the face on Easter” by Lutz.
With such boneheaded leadership, along with Red Ink Rick, why are everyone on this site expecting so much from GM?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:18 pm)Toyota Pirus can come in at $25k + because it’s not useing litium ion batteries. Put litium ion batteries on that car and the price will go up. 35k. 40k, 50k.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:19 pm)I get that it will be more expensive, but Toyota will NOT bring a similar car to market for more than a shiny new Volt. They’re, you know…smart.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:21 pm)Also, isn’t Toyota going to be manufacturing their own li-ion batteries, thereby reducing the cost? Building them in Japan without union nonsense upping the cost?
I’m telling you, if the Volt is 40k for the first two years, Toyota will win. Period.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:24 pm)72 Kevin
Also, Toyota actually makes money building cars, and has plenty of cash. They can _afford_ to lose money.
GM: latest rumor is that they are looking for another $10Billion in debt due to cash crunch.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:26 pm)73, agreed. Any money lost on a plug-in hybrid will surely be made up by their complete Prius line, which will be robust by then.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:28 pm)What a joke! GM has never liked small cars. They could make more money on the big ones. Now the game has changed and they need to make a BIG profit on the small cars. It aint going to happen. Somebody else will come up with the right car.
Right now I drive a 97 4 door Suzuki Sidekick. I paid $4000 for it. Outside of spark plugs and one set of plug wires I have spent NO money on it. It gets 24 to 25 MPG in town and 28 to 30 on the highway. I also have a 1990 2 door that has 130,000 miles on it that I pull behind my motorhome. It gets even better mileage. If GM thinks I am going to spend $40,000 for a car they will be waiting for a very long time. I have much better uses for my money. I have always been afraid it would end up like this. When people wanted BIG cars that is where GM made their money. Now that people want small cars GM thinks that where the high profits should be. So be it.
I will stick with the cars I have. It would take forever to justify a $40,000 car. I only paid $50,000 for my 100 acre farm.
Take Care
Arch
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:30 pm)$4 gas is here already, with no hope of going down much.
The masses expect mid-20’s for the price of a ubiquitous hybrid.
Automakers need technology that will generate on-going profit.
Why is that so hard for some to see here? Solutions are needed now! How the heck will the development & refinement for Volt be funded if the business is continously losing money in the meantime?
Look at the components of Volt and Prius. Cost & Size of engine, motors, and controllers basically balance out. The battery is significantly bigger in Volt though. So, it will always cost more. There’s simply no way Volt could compete with the non-plug configuration of Prius… which is exactly what the current market is begging for.
In other words, kudos to GM for their effort to develop a viable product to meet the 2020 efficiency mandate, but what happens until it is available in large quantities at an affordable price?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:32 pm)40K is expensive but hopefully it will not be out of my range. I would expect to spend 30k for a new car and the volt should have at least a 10k of savings over 5 years (gas, oil, parts) so that equals out.
Get this thing built.
Go GM!!!!
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:34 pm)76, yep. The irony, as I said earlier, is that they’ve fired up the competition re: plug-ins, but will surely get beat at the game they established.
They’re the 2004 USA Basketball team.
They should have worked on reducing the cost of the battery until they could deliver the vehicle for under 30k. But now Toyota’s jumping in by 2011, and I guarantee they will be cheaper than the Volt.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:35 pm)I disagree with all the folks that think Americans won’t buy a Volt
They want dependable high performance autos over cheaper models. They buy big screen HD TVs for the same reason. Americans like high quality and are willing to pay for it.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:36 pm)don’t fret too much…….they may offer some great lease deals…………who would want to own a first run of a technological revolution………….lease one drive it a few years and promote the technology, and get an even better one after 3 years with a super lithium battrey and 100 miles all electric range……I am sure residual value on these will be quite good………..
being green and reducing foreign oil dependence and reducing emissions is not about saving money……….its about saving the planet and our economy……….so how many dollars is that worth to you……..
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:37 pm)Except big screen HDTVs have a tangible advantage over their smaller counterparts; you can see more detail, get a better experience.
40k cars that rarely use gas will NOT save 15k over the life of the average vehicle ownership, not unless gas is at least double what it is now. There is no tangible advantage to this car at 40k.
And again, this is assuming that the Prius plug-in won’t beat GM at its own pricing game.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:40 pm)Leasing is an option if they can make it affordable. Never leased a car before, but I would consider it for the Volt. I do want this car to succeed.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:43 pm)We need to just cool it until we find out more. It is too early to get too excited about what we are finding out. GM knows what has to be done and they know that they can price themselves out of the market very fast.
I agee, it is going to hard not to look very close at the new Prius and the new Honda Hybrid when they are released. But, do so only if it is a have to case. Or look at other GM offerings until the Volt is released.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:43 pm)The chevrolet Volt won’t be 40k. I know toyota will produceing there own lithium ion batteries , but in two years they will have a hybrid with litium ion batteries at 25k? I don’t think so.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:44 pm)When I met Ed Peper (Chevy president) at Volt Nation that was precisely the price I told him that if the Volt was priced higher than I would likely go with alternatives like plugin conversions. So I’m in at that price. By 2010 there will be Saturn Vue plugin and likely an after market bigger battery by third party conversion shops. The problem with most hybrid conversions is that top EV speed is limited, whereas top speed for 2 mode hybrid (like Vue) will likely be much higher on EV only. An Escape hybrid converted to plugin is about $40K and a bigger vehicle, but not really made for plugin vehicle.
There will almost certainly be tax rebates too. Although Ed made it clear that he was hoping for $40K after rebates. Ed was almost trying to squeeze a little more out of me even though it was 30 months until the sale.
I also offered him a $10K check as deposit against a Volt returnable on only two conditions, delivery by 1 March 2011, and msrp of $40K or less for the base model.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:44 pm)> #79 Ed M
> I disagree with all the folks that think Americans won’t buy a Volt
$40,000 for what is basically a Cobalt skin, an econobox?
Granted, underneath, the drivetrain is completely different, but when buying cars, most people (not car nuts) generally look at size and style and price.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:44 pm)Have-to case? Or how about, I don’t WANT to pay extra for a vehicle that saves no money?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:46 pm)Leasing is NO option for me. Thank you.
Their original statement was “Comfortably under $30,000″ which WOULD have made this car affordable to a lot of people, and would have made it a game changer.
But, if they are saying now they have to sell it near $40,000, then they can’t deliver on their “Comfortably under $30,000″ statement they made.
At $40,000, this car goes from ‘moon shot’ to ‘niche’ vehicle.
I mean, are they really serious about mass producing the Volt? At 40K, it doesn’t seem like it.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:46 pm)> #80 Brent
> they may offer some great lease deals
Great lease deals require a great resale value or a company with deep pockets to subsidize the said deal.
GM is not really known for either.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:49 pm)A few weeks ago, the Hawaii Democratic party passed a resolution introducing a novel approach to financing PHEV batteries. The revenue neutral approach is not a subsidy. Assuming the cost of the batteries is $1 per watt, the customer would buy the Volt at $24,000. Electricity used to recharge the vehicle has a surcharge added to it, making it’s fuel cost equivalent to $3.80 gas. The surcharge is used to recover the $16K “loan” for the battery. Although technical decisions would be left to the utilities and the manufacturer’s battery engineers, the likely scheme for metering and any grid management features would use an EVDO chip. (Such features might include optimizing night recharge loading or even grid stabilization local power boosting). Surcharges are aggregated and paid out at a constant rate to the lenders regardless whether individual customers where low mileage drivers. The “loan” travels with the ownership of the car until the cost of the battery is recovered. Our state is tiny, but such a program could become a trial for a national program. Possibly GM and GMAC would be interested in submitting supporting letters to the legislative committees charged with implementing this policy? Who would I contact to about that?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (9:58 pm)Well – they will sell every one they make at 40K – we all know that.
I think they should price it at 40K. Sell out these to the first 100,000 units. At that point, EV’s will have hit critical mass and there will be no turning back – the revolution will have begun and the rest of us can get Volt 2.0 .
Early adopters are in the thousands on any cool leading edge technology. The iPhone is a perfect example.
When I was young and stupid – I bought an Original Mac for 4K back in 1984 dollars!!! It had one floppy disk – a nine inch BW screen and 128K of ram.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:01 pm)40k?
I’m out.
I realize GM is spending money on this – but I think that the price of cars is clearly out of hand.
There is a reason the auto companies WANT you in big SUV’s and have been shoving them down your throats for years – it’s because people pay A YEARS SALARY for one.
That’s ridiculous – I am sticking to buying used for now.
I think I could have stretched 30k – for a great cause –
but 40k?
Come on – I live in Canada – so GM will also try to charge me an extra 10 large.
No profit? I’m not buying that either.
SCREW THAT.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:13 pm)$40K is the cost but what’s the price?
I would expect GM to price the Volt down the learning curve like Toyota did for the initial Prius.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:17 pm)I should have added that as far as the owner is concerned, there is no loan. They have to pay for electricity going into their car at a much higher rate than normal, but it is equivalent to $3.80 gas which is a bargain at today’s prices.
The customer also can opt out- they can pay the $40K if they want to recharge at the normal electrical rates.
On the point of interest to the lenders- when I mentioned aggregating, I meant that surcharges are aggregated across all customers. This in effect means that higher mileage drivers are subsidizing lower mileage drivers. I should mention this point is not articulated in the resolution, but in my estimation that is how our legislators would likely prefer to implement it.
Lastly, there are limitations to the program. I mentioned full coverage of a 16KWH battery, but a battery capacity greater than that required for 30 miles of urban driving would likely not be covered by the program. This is because our state’s average daily vehicle mileage is lower than typical- about 27 miles per day. So the program might cover 75% of the 40 mile Volt’s price- making the sticker $28K rather than $24K. (Assuming a 40K base price).
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:20 pm)#93 That’s what I’ve been saying the cost wouldn’t be 40k….
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:34 pm)#66 mr_roboto
I’m sure, since the difference between vehicle profit and company earnings is apparent.
#64 Speedy
If I had to guess, I’d say Gen 3 Prius (with the Li Ion battery) will be priced about $4k more than the current Prius (say $28k?) (5Kw battery x $800/Kwh plus $1k inflation adjustment minus future value $1k Nickel Metal battery).
___________________________________________________________________
And my Plan B ?
To lease a Volt !!! :>) I figure after a 3 year lease, the Volt 20 (or maybe even a Plug Free Volt) will be hitting the streets in the low to mid 30’s price range.
Gotta keep the dream alive :>)
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:39 pm)Chill out:
I have said this earlier and the crazy different pricing and information leaking out is only making me suspect it further.
GM is on endgame status with the Volt. They were unprecedented in their openness when developing the vehicle, as such, 90% of their cards are face up on the table for all their competition to see. Heck, they even publicly disclosed the possible battery manufacturer’s, their names, and that the batteries were darn near even. A hard up competitor could be designing a mule right now with the expectation of bringing the loser of the battery contract into the fold and shave a year or two off R&D.
I take the idea that most of what comes out of their mouths from this point forward is FUD designed to confuse the competition on the 10% of the cards they still have face down.
It is either that or the Volt is not the 100-200k unit car that they envision and it is the proof of concept car to prove out the E-REV platform and a different car (or all of them) will be the mass market vehicle. Not many people are going to buy a $40,000 small 4 seater unless it has a corvette engine and tesla styling. At that price I would rather purchase a SUV Hybrid like the Saturn.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:47 pm)GM dangled the concept before us – an affordable, sporty, homegrown 40-mile AER to calm our yearning. Her pheromones wafted far and wide. We took them in. We had to have her. Then, the wind shifted. At $40k, her allure fades for the common man. Not even nasaman could keep use at such lofty heights. We heard Statik. Our systems shifted to backup. We limped back to earth and the girl next door. Hello Prius, I’m sorry I was such a Pri-ick.
I guess GM will lead the E-REV race. But, the Volt is not yet the people’s car. It will take time to get there, if it gets there at all. Other makers also want to produce the people’s car. We’ve got options. I’m still holding on to my 1992 Honda Civic because the race is still being run to produce the car for me. There are affordable solutions around the corner. I’ll still be checking GM-Volt.com because you people keep me up to speed on what is happening. Thanks.
I hope things change for the better.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (10:49 pm)Sorry but at 40K I’m out. I live 6 miles from work and don’t anticipate a greatly increased salary in the next few years. I do anticipate the cost of everything I HAVE to buy going up. You can call it whining but I call it reality.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:03 pm)At $40,000 – I’ll take a Corvette. The price needs to be reasonable for the car. Volt, a small economical car – needs to be economically priced too. GM may need to take a small loss in order to get the car out the door. It’s an investment to the future of GM and the USA. If the car is reasonably priced for what it is – good transportation, it will become an investment and then a great sales tool in order to propagate it’s drive train across the GM line into all of it’s makes and models. If it’s overpriced for what it is – people won’t buy it and it will fail and so will GM. We are rooting for GM’s and the Volt’s success. We want an American company to succeed! I don’t really want to buy a Honda Civic – but I will if I have to. I have a 21 year old Oldsmobile and a 12 year old Chrysler and they are both in bad shape. I’m trying to keep them going until I can buy a Volt. But…. I have my eye on a nice used ‘04 ‘Vette (I like a fun car!) but my practical side is looking at a new Civic. It’s a good looking car that gets great gas mileage. Mr. Lutz, I want to buy an American car. If it’s over priced, I think we all will lose. Well, you may not. You’re the CEO! Most of us are in the middle class or lower. You want to make crazy money? Make a lot of these cars and sell them at a decent price and you’ll eventually recoup your development and investment costs and we’ll all be driving Volt’s and it’s offspring. If not, we’ll be driving Honda’s Civic or new hydrogen car, Toyota Prius’, or whatever econo box that comes out of China. If you want to sell a few of these cars to the hollywood types for too much money, it’s not a sales pitch to us, the little people. The it becomes just another unreachable goal that we’ll read about in People magazine. Brad and Angelina buy a Volt. The rest of us don’t want to buy the foreign cars, but if that’s all we can afford, might as well give it up now and sell your GM stock options. Make the Volt affordable to the people, and we all can go to the bank together.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:03 pm)Wow, we’re behaving like a focus group!
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:04 pm)#81 Kevin:
I think you missed the point you almost made. HDTVs cost more because you can see more detail and get a better experience… They don’t save you money! To say the \Volt has no tangible advantage over the Prius because it doesn’t save money misses the point that the \Volt will outperform the Prius in almost every measurable way, much like the HDTV! You will unquestionably get a better driving experience in the 8 second 0-60 \Volt than the 11 second Prius.
Is that enough to justify $40k? I don’ t know. I think that in that territory it could easily be a 4 second \Volt with a second 160hp motor on the rear wheels and we’d all be having a completely different discussion. But it’s a different question about how much the advantages are worth, not whether or not there are any.
#37 Ed M:
Oh, I don’t think I eat enough Dryer’s to affect \Volt affordability! And apparently, I’ll be eating 15% less, anyway.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:14 pm)40K puts it way out of my price range.
I have no “brand loyalty.” Extended range via petrol (or some other fuel) matters little to me.
What matters to me is this: can the car handle my 25 mile round trip (w/ a little extra to spare) to work in all electric mode? Is it at least fairly reliable?
I don’t care who does it first — Toyota, GM, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru…whoever can do these things and have the car cost as close to 20K as possible is who I’ll be going with. I realize it might be a while…
Peace,
Eric
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:19 pm)Well it has been a long night. It has also been a long dance with GM. I am glad to see it come to an end. Somebody will build the Volt. I do not think it will be GM. They have for years extracted their profits from the cars with the highest demand. Hey you want a big SUV you pay a big price. Now that we have a gas crunch they think they can pull the same stuff. Move the $40,000 price tag down to a car which gets GOOD mileage. IMHO it will not work this time. There are plenty of car companies out there that know how to build small efficent cars. It may take a year or two but somebody will get it right.
JMHO
Take Care
Arch
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:26 pm)P.S. I tend to keep cars a long time. If I buy something else in the next couple of years besides a Volt, GM will have to wait another 15-20 years before they get another chance to get my money.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:28 pm)Toyota or Honda Volt? An interesting idea. Japan is famous for taking US ideas and making them better and selling them for less. GM, are you going to let them get away with this?
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:48 pm)While GM is going to play with the Volt’s cost and production schedule, Toyota is going to build a Prius that gets 90 MPG for $22k… I think Lutz shouldn’t be bragging about leaving Toyota behind.
Goodnight all…
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:48 pm)So Gm has offically said that the volt will be 40k? Oh what mid 30k? Oh what under 30k? Oh what Gm has not said the price of the volt yet? Just around 40k…. mid 30k I would said, and low 20k for a volt that’s pure electric.
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:49 pm)Nothing brings out the trolls and the “you have to help me” crowd like a pricing comment that they do not like……………..
If this “sell it at a loss” logic could be done, then why aren’t you all calling on the members of the board of directors of the oil companies to do the same for you????
As has been said before, until we see an actual sticker price on the window of a Volt, please take all of this with a grain of salt!
(Quote)
Jun 18th, 2008 (11:55 pm)“2009 Saturn Vue Two mode Hybrid Plug in” , 100 MPG+ GM will build that, 20k .
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:08 am)107 Brad G
Thinking about it… Lutz could be playing mind games with Toyota to throw them off…
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:09 am)1st, as others have indicated, I’m not sure how much value we should place on this “current” number… we keep hearing different things from different people at GM (and sometimes different numbers from the same person).
However, assuming they put a sticker price of $40k on it… as others quoted GM said originally and more than once that it would be “Priced comfortably under $30K”. I would have had to assume GM didn’t pull that number out of a hat… which to me begs the question that how did GM screw up the number so badly with $40k being off by 33%. No wonder GM is losing money, they can’t count
And by the way, someone mentioned R&D costs… I really doubt they are trying to recoup that in the 1st year or two… that’s something that needs to be amortized over many years, and not just on the Volt, but on other EV’s since most of the R&D is not Volt specific.
As for GM pricing it less than it costs to build… GM can easily do that and *without* taking a loss…. as they know full well the Volt really helps when it comes to their CAFE number… for each Volt sold they could probably sell at least two full size cars or SUV’s or trucks (these are all where the high profit margins are) and still comply with the higher CAFE numbers.
Someone above mentioned how much the EV-1’s cost to build, I think they said $80k… but one thing you have to remember is that the EV-1’s were essentially all hand built in small batches. It also had 26kwh worth of NiMH batteries for 75 to 150 miles/charge. The Volt essentially has only a 8kwh worth of Li-Ion (the other 8kwh of capacity is not being used) to go 40 miles/charge.
Of course the reason GM couldn’t use the same Cobasys NiMH’s is because they no longer own the patent (even though there are now rumors Chevron plans to sell that battery division that now owns the patent). If they had it, I still think it’s possible GM could have the Volt to the market sooner (the Li-Ion have always been the gating item), with the same 40 miles/charge range, and “Priced comfortably under $30K”.
At $40k, especially under the “Chevy” brand, I can’t see myself buying a 1st generation Volt. In the 2 1/2 years to the Volt’s expected late 2010 release, I expect to have at least one or two other choices from other companies (at least a 100+ miles/charge pure BEV), and firmer dates for others (such as from Nissan).
I think by 2012 we could see GM either purchased by another (foreign) auto company or go private (purchased by one of those equity funds) if GM indeeds prices the “Chevy” Volt at $40k.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:18 am)Oh yea, forgot to put in my usual plead to GM to bring back the Geo Metro! If 20 years ago you could make that 4 or 5 seater that got 50 miles/gallon, I’d love to see what you could do by putting your parallel hybrid technology into it!
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:18 am)The 1st generation Volt with a 16 kWh battery pack is priced exactly as I hoped it might be. You guys keep harping on GM, but it is not GM’s fault that the initial version will probably be around $40,000. It is the BATTERY PACK guys, the 16 kWh BATTERY PACK is expensive at this point in time and it IS NOT made by GM.
I know, at today’s prices, the advanced battery packs run from around $770 to $1000 per kilowatt hour. CPI has developed a battery pack that it can mass produce inexpensively, at much less than those prices. The cells use a wrap technology that is quick and easy to produce at high rates on a mechanized production line. The power density (pulse power) is great, at up to around 30C with no heat problems with the cells. The cells can also be charged at the same high rates with no damage to the cells. The cells are very stable with no ‘explosion’ danger. The useful lifetime of the cells are also great, over 15 years. Sounds great so far, but there is a catch. Remember GM’s design requirement for a battery pack that does not weigh over 400 pounds and has to physically fit into that ‘T’ design that the Volt platform is designed around? This inexpensive cell technology, still Li-ion, does not have a high ENERGY density. The energy density per pound is only about half of those expensive technologies that use nano this and nano that. Translation. That particular CPI battery pack will provide more than enough power density to supply a 160 hp motor (even the 209 hp I have read about), but it won’t store enough energy for a 40 mile AER range. In the Volt battery pack’s weight and volume restrictions, only about an 8 kWh pack is reasonable, about a 20 mile AER range. CPI has another battery technology that has over twice the energy density, but a slightly lower power density that will produce a 16 kWh Volt battery pack. That particular cell will be more expensive to mass produce, PLUS it only has a lifetime of about 5 years, so it is unlikely to be used unless CPI decides to provide short leases on the battery pack.
I don’t know much about the A123 battery pack, other than it seems it will be expensive to mass produce. $13,000 to $16,000 for a 16 kWh battery pack at today’s prices is a guess. I believe GM can produce the Volt car itself for mid $20k’s, then you have to add the price of the battery pack. A 20 mile AER Volt could probably be sold for well under $30,000, but the 40 mile AER 1st version that GM promised will probably be closer to $40,000 unless some kind of breakthrough comes from the battery makers.
My guess is that the first Volt will be the 40 mile AER version that GM promised, but it will have a $40,000 price tag minus any possible government subsidies to reduce the sticker shock. The 20 mile AER version should be on sale later the next year with a sticker price to be competative with parallel hybrids, mid to upper $20k’s and possibly with a government subsidy to reduce that cost. The 20 mile AER Volt will not have ‘half a battery’, but will use a battery pack that is much cheaper to mass produce. JMHO.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:19 am)I guess it could be a GM mind-$%^& and they will price it far lower but we will have to wait and see. Two years worth of emotional rollercoasters.
I still think a number of people will buy it at $40k and enjoy the psychological factor of “I haven’t put gas in it for three weeks!” while making $600/month payments.
And maybe it will be so cool we will be willing to pay that for it. I seriously doubt 100,000 per year though.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:25 am)$40K = take my name off the list. I’ll keep driving my Geo.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:27 am)Ya’ll know as soon as GM gets the Volt out and can see how well it does then they will transfer the technology to Saturn’s and other lines…
IE: The Pontiac Soltice and the Saturn Sky.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:31 am)#114 57silver,
That is the clearest battery “state of the play” I have seen to date.
Make my Volt a 20 miler.
Thank you for the information.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:31 am)I have convinced myself that Lutz is trying to keep Toyota off balance just like all of us are off balance by this article.
GM says Volt doing great on production schedules and cost around 30k. Toyota comes back with, we will make a plug in Prius because we see the Volt as a threat.
I think this is Sun Tzu and “The Art of War”.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (12:49 am)It is buzz kill!
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:01 am)Who ever here thinks they can get a prius for 22 k is smoking something.
Last time I checked they were more like way over 30k. Toyota says they are 22k but it its typical Toyota Marketing. Toyota ran out of batteries
Go try to buy one at 22k
Also buying a Prius is very bad because building on Prius with the heavy metals in the batteries is the same as driving a hummer for 20 years. Your almost better off just keeping your SUV and driving it slow to save the environment.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:03 am)$40K = GM fails.
According to my estimates, gas would have to rise to over $7.20/gal and electricity prices would have to remain unchanged for the next two years in order for the Volt to just break even with the price and lifetime energy costs of a normal fuel-efficient gas car.
GM had better hope future generation Volts come down in price, otherwise this vision of GMs will never become a reality. They should look into the possibility NOW of using existing and affordable battery technologies like NiMH (if they can obtain large-format batteries). Sure, it will be twice the weight- but it may also make the Volt affordable.
A 20-mile AER Volt using NiMH might just be a lot more appealing to buyers than a 40-mile AER Volt at twice the cost.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:09 am)Looks like fun to me.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=al4p1NLRLtHI&refer=asia
Take Care
Arch
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:09 am)$40,000…..???? Haaa, Haa, Ha. What a joke!! At that price they won’t sell enough to make ANY impact on the minds of drivers. The only people who will be able to afford it are the wealthy and they won’t buy one as a primary vehicle, they’ll buy one as a ‘look at me’ vehicle.
Looks like the Th!nk from Norway may be on the right path. They should have a North American launch in 2009.
Good Luck GM, keep going down your current path and you will have very deliberately created another EV1……
Ter
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:13 am)http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=al4p1NLRLtHI&refer=asia
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:18 am)#119 Brad G,
Or Machiavel and “The Prince”
Coming back to the discussion with Statik, this could be virtual (that is with products only in project) Bertrand competition, a move to attract the plug-in Li-ion Prius toward an higher price zone, to be able to form a win-win strategy where both automakers make profit by sharing the market at the expense of affiliated consumers.
The real products will be on the market at least 2 years from now, we should count the moves from each other automaker, I predict we will use more than the fingers of our hands.
As Arch says, take care …. and pray for more competition coming from other players than GM and Toyota.
JC
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:21 am)Thanks Arch #125
Here it comes;
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:28 am)I find it funny everyone is all clamoring about the price when we don’t even know what it will sell for yet. If $40k is the “breakeven price,” does that include all the R&D and preparation for it or is it just the material costs? If it includes R&D then it will be cheaper the next year. It wouldn’t be a surprise either given the massive amount of resources GM put into developing this car. Even if it was just materials, it wouldn’t be a surprise either considering GM is using the most cutting edge (and therefore likely the most expensive) batteries avaliable.
Given all that, Lutz say the retail will be “around $40k” and we won’t know for sure until the car comes out 2 years later. So it’s not like it will start at $40k for sure.
And where did all you people get that a Prius that will get 90mpg and be $22k? Are you talking about the announcement a while back about the next gen prius getting 94mpg on the Japanese cycle? I’m sorry, you guys will be severely disappointed when the next gen prius comes along.
The current gen prius gets 83 mpg on the same cycle; is anyone getting 84 mpg on their prius? People get a little more than half that at ~45mpg. So for the next gen prius expect around 50-55 mpg EPA. It’s just going to be a small bump over the previous one. Remember they are upsizing the engine and overall they haven’t changed the drivetrain, so why would you guys expect them to double the efficiency?
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:43 am)I and Kreskin prophesied we would end up buying a 010 Prius about one year ago.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (1:58 am)
Jun 19th, 2008 (2:02 am)We can only hope that this is market research on their part to find the pain point at which we lose interest. $40K is not a car for the masses. Nor is $35K. GM can forget selling 100,000 cars – goodbye wait-list. Did they forget that granola greenies are mostly poor? Dangit! Don’t they get it? There is a market for a Cobalt with a battery. (Think) You need to promulgate the EREV to as many platforms as possible – now! Tell the bean counters to back off and take more lumps for a year. You can’t stick to niche markets and hope for profitability. You’ve got to get big numbers NOW and change the game. Start with the mass market, not the upscale. At least give us options: 20 mile battery? Leased battery? Try the Gillete razor approach.
At $40K, why did you call this a Chevy? You should’ve called it a Caddy. Actually, at this rate, you should’ve called it an Olds.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (2:20 am)I bet it wouln’t retail for 40k. No matter what anybody said.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (2:23 am)Kyle #131,
I completely agree with you.
When I was young and studied in California, I bought a second (was it third or fourth ?) hand Olds with a V8 engine, a true gas-guzzler. But this car was what is called comfort. The Opel Corsa I drive usually now is a far cry from the Olds from this angle but it uses a fifth of the fuel I consumed 30 years ago, runs faster and is a lot easier to park downtown.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (2:28 am)Does the volt started at 40k or under 40k answer please.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (2:30 am)If it starts at 40k how do you? And not bob lutz said?
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (2:58 am)Maybe all of you will/would pay cash for this car – but, me, well, I’ll need a car loan. According to some quick calculations at bankrate.com – if I buy a $40k Volt with $10k down – finance 30k – my payment at 7% for 5 years is $594.04. If the Volt is $30k – and I put down the same amt, then the pmt drops to $396.02. The difference between the $30k Volt and the $40k Volt becomes: $198.02 a month. Compare that to a high mileage gas car – with the Volt, (assuming my daily usage is less than 40 miles – which it is) I never have to go to the gas station. I don’t have to go to Jiffy Lube either. Would I say no to the Volt for a difference of less than $200/month? No. Sure, it hurts a little, but I’ll have the coolest car in town – way cooler than a ‘Vette – or any Escalade or Hummer! And I’ll almost never have to go back to a gas station…where I step into the oil-slick puddle on the ground, and get my hands nastified on the greasy-gas covered pump handle…
Seriously, most of us will need a loan to buy any new car. So what’s your MONTHLY PAYMENT breaking point for a Volt?
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (3:32 am)40K for a VOLT!?!?!?! Let see, the Prius 5 Door Liftback with:
Automatic Transmission – $29,500 CDN
Special Edition Premium – $32,530 CDN
Special Edition Premium + Nav. – $35,280 CDN
Hymotion Battery add-on – $9995.00 CDN
So, Prius ranges from 39K~45K CDN and dealers are not budging on price.
Lyle, keep me on the waiting list @ 40K for a VOLT 40, THX!
GO GM! GO VOLT !
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (4:29 am)Surprising, a small negative news turns all those Toyota bashing to GM bashing and Volt lovers to Prius lovers.
I am sure Bob’s casual comments on price were made with some motives, and was just testing the waters. The response from both public and Government is important for GM. I doubt whether even GM will be in a position to arrive at any figure two and a half years in advance. My own feeling is that Volt will be priced $30K with $5K plus or minus on either side
.
#114 57Silver
Thanks for the detailed remarks on the present day battery scenario. Even Bob has commented some time back that Battery is no longer an issue for Volt, which I feel is to be taken with a pinch of salt.Toyota maintain its interest in all areas of battery development- NiMH, Li-ion, and a new system under development.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (5:36 am)Bring it on/out!
40K USD would be acceptable for a large amount of people in Sweden, not even considering that our gas cost 2.3 USD/litre and diesel at 2.5 USD/litre (that would be 8.8USD/gallon for gas and 9,5USD/gallon of diesel).
More then US sitizens has their eyes on this car.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (6:29 am)Seems like there is a wide general agreement here that $40K is too high. And most of us here have been extremely supportive of GM and the Volt. So, if we are not buying it at that price, how will the masses feel about it? I think the same. This is incredibly disappointing news.
Toyota is nipping at their heals. GM can do such great things with this technology, including squashing the competition.
Could it be that sometimes you have to lose money in-order to make it?
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (6:29 am)Take me off the list…..I will not be able to afford this car and it will not save me any money. I will buy a Honda Civic or something in that realm and it will give me real savings in fuel and money. The point is that they, anybody in the automotive industry has to give people real savings.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (6:39 am)Misleadfing headline, Lyle.
When Lutz tells the reporter that “the first-generation Volt will retail for about $40,000 and generate no profit for GM,” that’s NOT the same as Lutz saying the break-even is $40k. For all we know, the break even could be $45 and they are going to sell it at a loss, as hinted at in earlier posts.
I, too, would like to think that Lutz’s comment is a case of managing expectations so they can surprise us with a lower price (and reap the accompanying good PR) but that’s probably just unwarranted wishful thinking.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (6:44 am)So much nationalism here, GM, Toyota whoever make it first will be supported by me.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (6:50 am)#109-Exactly my thoughts
It will save me from going to the gas station, which aside from the cost aspect, I find to be a complete and utter waste of my time, not to mention all the noxious fumes you inhale coupled with the nasty pump handle that God knows who has had their hands on.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:05 am)In the industry I work in, product managers feel they have a good price for a product if 15% of sales are lost due to high price. In other words, if less than 15% of people reject the product because of price, then it is underpriced.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:08 am)Questions that need answers:
1. How much of this cost for the volt is due to the battery pack?
2. How much does the car cost without the battery pack?
3. How much of this 40K is R&D cost?
4. How quickly will battery production be able to be ramped up.
5. How long till E-Flex is available across the board in all vehicles.
My name has never been on the waiting list for the Volt. It is too long to wait and follow a car for ANOTHER 3.5 years before the car is available in the OTHER 47 states. Initially it will be only offered in 3 states, cal, ny and fla.
I like everyone want one NOW not 5 years down the road. One reason I follow this site is NOT because I am a huge Chevy or GM fan. What I was hoping to see was other car manufacturers jump on the e-flex drive train band wagon. So far this has not happened publicly.
Poulsen hybrid system might be my first electric vehicle or may a lionev.com type conversion. We will see.
Lyle you need to see about getting some info on the questions I posted. Inquiring minds want to know!!! Is there an E-Flex Silverado in my future? Or will I have to do a conversion?
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:09 am)$40K? I’ll take two please…
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:14 am)“$40K? No way!” If it’s that much, I’ll just get a Honda, or Jetta TDI that’s claimed to get 60mpg highway. With all the money saved from not buying a Volt at that price (about $17k) it’ll be dumb not to. I won’t pay that big a premium just to be a treehugger and end up probably paying as much on my electric bill as I would for gas anyway. As much as I hate to admit it, my grandfather is always right (in reference to when I told him I’d buy the Volt): “$15,000 for those batteries can buy a LOT of gas.” he said.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:22 am)Retail at $40k means nothing to me right now.
- Mainly because, I havent seen what it looks like (I’m one of those who need this car to look good on top of it being electrified)
- We dont know if there will be tax breaks or not…
- There’s a lot that could happen between now and the release, especially with the value of the US dollar…
I still want one but at $40k it forces me to have a “talk” with the wife…and discussions on finances in marriages should be avoided at all costs…I heard somewhere that money is one of the biggest things that couples fight about….I have been extremely lucky in this regard in my marriage thus far…. we pay the bills and the credit scores are good….so we dont talk about it because we dont have to.
I’d like it to stay that way GM!
Sell me one for $35k (or less) so I dont have to clear it with the family!
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:27 am)#97 Morgan
I agree, GM has been very open with the Volt and its development, but must keep some information confidential, as they cannot afford to reveal too much to the competition.
I remember the Gulf War, and Gen. Norman Swartzkopf having the media show clips of amphibious craft manuvers and than stating that any invasion of Kuwait would require these type of operations.
Months later, after the Iraqis had fortified the shorelines, the invasion came from land.
Some of us need to recognize the power of media in these circumstances when we hear discussions on pricing from this point forward.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:35 am)$ 40 000 No problem. First edition would immediately consumed in Europe or Asia. Americans will go for second better one. Volt will be something very HOT.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:37 am)Good morning!
Is this what it feels like to be on the side of the majority. Life is easy on this side. I feel like hen picking out random bits of the thread that people would agree with me on, it’s so addictive.
Couple things, then I’ll go back to lurking on this thread,
#26 Dave P
“For $40k, I want a caddy. I predict it will be $38k with a $5k gov tax credit available. We should start a pool.”
Good idea, I pick $46,200 (bottom-bottom line, just before taxes), regardless of government rebate….rebates just get eaten up by automakers. The only way the rebate works for the consumers is if it is announced -AFTER- the Volt price is firm (and by firm I mean they are taking people’s money…actual contracts). So don’t start lobbying until you get your money in, lol.
Secondly,
Who are you people that are still saying 35K, or using words like “I’ll bet” or “just wait”
You ‘uber-optimistic’ guys are great, I don’t even feel the need to call you out individually, that would be cruel.
Analogy moment: It’s like you guys are the ’singers’ on the first 6 episodes of American Idol…you know the ones. Ok, whose next to sing? How about you over there in the tute? You look like a winner.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:44 am)Like everyone has said the MSRP will be what drives the success not their breakeven point. Maybe their breakeven point is $40k but they dont mind losing $15k on each vehicle in Year 1 just to get the word out and will sell them for $25k. We dont know.
But sheesh for $40k I could buy three of the Harleys that I want and get 50-55mpg every day. Since my commute is 60 miles a day r/t and I cant plugin at work thats not bad
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:45 am)Statik, #152. Good morning! I had a feeling you would enjoy all this negativity.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:49 am)Lots of references to tax credits here….Just remeber the credits will not appear if H.R. 6049 gets defeated by the Senate. We MUST let our Senators know that the Renewable Energy bill must be passed!
Write to your Senator (the House has passed the bill) and tell them how you feel. Public opinion is runing 75% for this bill but some senators do not seem to get the message….
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:50 am)If we start a pool… I vote that the entries should NOT include the guesses on government rebates. Its one thing to guess about what GM is going to do with the MSRP…. but I am one person who would like to keep the government OUT of my life as much as possible.
We cannot and should not count on them getting any such thing passed and/or implemented. If they do then its just gravy but NEVER count on it ! ever…..
Put me down at $38,500 …. oh sorry I mean $38,499
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:52 am)Well, what did we expect? A miracle? The first practical Electric vehicle (until technology evolves, I can’t call a car that doesn’t have a “Gas” backup system “practicle”) in limited edition for the same price as a Prius? I’m sorry to say that $40K is also out of my league (that means it will probably sell in Canada (if at all) for $45-50K). Guess I’ll have to wait for mass production and competition from other companies for EVs to be affordable…
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:55 am)I like the idea of a pool. Let Lyle hold the cash in a high interest account for two and half years, and whoever win’s gets a major discount on their Volt! Say $1.00 to get in, and say we have a perfect world so 30K GM-Volt.com site members are in, the winner comes up with 5 to 10K and has a Volt!
Actually so much can change that it’s impossible to say how much the Volt is going to sell for, or if the government is going to kick some cash back to us. I’m just waiting it out. I like the car. At 40K it’s a bit high but I will still be interested. One other thing people need to consider, this is going to be a tough car to put into mass production. The pricing of the car can also control the demand. Remember when no one could get a Prius? People paid outragous prices for them, and Toyota allowed it. So PLEASE don’t bad mouth one company, they all play the numbers game.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:55 am)Also just wanted to follow up with whoever said that oil is not the solution.
I fully support the Volt and cant wait to get one and I fully support looking at every single alternative energy source out there. But we cant stick our head in the sand over this, no pun intended. We are going to be a petroleum based society for years to come. We’re just not going to wake up and not need oil. We cant demand on one hand that OPEC raise production levels and on the other say eh, not interested in exploring off our own coast, why dont you guys just make more oil for us? Its hypocrisy and ignorance all rolled into one and it really infuriates me when I see the Democrats talking like this. A balanced energy plan would include pushing hard for long term, alternative, renewable sources of energy – AND exploring for every single drop of oil we can get ourselves. Even if its only 1% or 5% of what we use total, so what? Thats just that much more we dont have to rely on someone else for. Oh, and I also believe that simply announcing we are going to look for our own oil would crush a lot of the wild speculation in the oil markets and drive the price down. So what if usable oil would be 3-5 years off? Clinton vetoed ANWR in 1995 saying the oil was 5-7 years off and wouldnt help anything.
Anyway, end of soapbox.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:56 am)Another observation. Where are all the “mileage math” guys from the last thread? I’ll help you guys out, with some suggestions.
“Well, for me personally,” (this is a great way to give really specific information that exactly meets the sweet spot of the Volt that no one can argue with)
“I drive exactly 40 miles a day to work,” (don’t we all?)
“My work has plugs in the parking lot,” (naturally)
“so I will be able to recharge when I’m at work, then drive 40 miles back home,” (cool beans for you)
“…and I am an American, I work hard…365 days of the year!” (Yes, sweet, sweet 365 day math).
“According to ‘Fatty Monroe’ who is a well respected journalist in Uganda, he thinks…no he KNOWS gas prices will be $15 gallon in just one year” (yes, all internet articles are true…even if there are conflicting ones)
“so there therefore, I will be driving exactly 29,200 miles, and my electric is only 8kWh here, so thats like $850 a year” (I’m sure you do. I’ll bet there is no ‘add-on’ fees on your bill either. Hey whats the rate in California, New York and DC again?)
“so compare that to your 25 mpg car. NO! You can’t compare it to the Honda Civic, Prius or the other 45 cars over 30MPG…I am talking about comparing it to ‘real cars,’ of which the Volt is one” (one that is on Cobalt sized platform)
I could go on…but there is probably a word limit, and possibly a ’smarm’ limit per post.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (7:58 am)@Statik
Have you tried switching to decaf?
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:04 am)$40,000? Thank God for the Aptera.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:09 am)#154 Rashiid
“Statik, #152. Good morning! I had a feeling you would enjoy all this negativity”
It so good…it really is. This is the kind of thread we need.
If GM reads the ‘fan board’ and sees threads like this and not ‘kiss-kiss-love-ins,’ they are far more likely to act in our interest rather than their own. Ultimately, a more streamlined, higher production, cheaper vehicle is in GM’s best interest, they just don’t realize it.
They are clearly trying to replace their lost SUV/big auto/truck market with high priced hybrid/electric cars. “Affordible electric cars for the masses” is no longer the slogan.
Unfortunately, even with the Volt, GM may have to wake up to the fact that the economy may be in no shape to support ANY volume 40K+ car in 2010, electric or not.
It looks to me like GM is betting on things like sticking a ‘hybrid’ sticker on the side of a expensive vehicle, (lowering it 5MPG) and hoping to get sales out of it. Ever wonder why there is no ‘hybrid’ sticker on a Cobalt or a Wave?
If we continue in this recession (or go into it…depending on your definition), and I figure we are going deeper, people will only want/only be able to afford to the ‘15-25K/35+ MPG’ vehicles.
GM would be better served to add alot more product like the new turbo/4 banger Cobalt (or whatever they are going to call it). That is if GM can actually produce one at a profit with their monsterous overheads.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:15 am)it never ceases to amaze me how many people would be willing to spend $45k on a Tahoe to pull a boat (something you don’t do every day) or $67k on an Escalade (posers vehicle that is about as off-road as a Hyundai Sonata) yet gripe about a price that we can’t yet even confirm. There are a few people here that said the car will be too expensive. The car won’t . The battery will. There may be a way to lower the price of a Volt 40, but you may not like the answer. Lease the battery. (oh, that’s right-nobody likes that idea.) They could reduce the range (20 mi AER, but everyone thinks that’s a crock too).
Truth is that GM is going to price it where it feels it will do the most collective good. I don’t mean to burst anyone’s bubble but “taking a loss” and “giving it away” are two totally different things. Cars themselves are not at all very expensive to build. But as many pointed out, it is the battery and the technology you’re paying for. Do you think a Volt would cost as much (hypothetically) if it were equipped with a 2.0 litre EcoTec? You want the price to go down? E-mail the battery company and ask them to ease the price point that GM has to pay. The battery costs are the real variable. I’m not very knowledgable about the batteries so I’ll just leave that to you here who know what you’re talking about. But I do know that the battery costs too much to begin with. But you always pay more for something new. Ask anybody who got hosed out six bills for an iPhone only to have the price cut 2 bills in less than 1.5 months, only to have a better 3G version come out in less than a year for $200.
The early adopters of the Volt WILL pay for that privilege. The true conundrum, my friends is “what’s it worth to you?” Besides, with inflation going up approximately 6.1% every year, if a Volt were available yesterday at $35,268.84 and increased 6.1% for the next two years (federal average) it would come out to be $40k in 2010. So instead of kicking GM, mayge you should be kicking the battery companies for making the packs so damn high and kicking our politicians about EREV tax incentives and raising the minimum wage. When’s the last time it went up?
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:19 am)$40,000 is not too bad. The difference in the payment between $30,000 (where everyone wants it to be) and $40,000 (where it sounds like it will end up being), shouldn’t be too bad considering what you will be saving in fuel costs. Obviously interest rates, down payments, and length of financing all affect this, but if you are in the 70-75% of the population that will be able to commute without using any gas, hopefully (after accounting for the cost of electricity), you would still be coming out ahead. I personally drive a Land Rover and get 12 MPG. I spend $115/week on gas. The $460/month I would be saving in gas will go a long way towards making up the difference in payment between a $30k car and a $40k car. If I spend the same as I do now, or even more, and don’t use a drop of imported oil, I will be elated.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:25 am)#161 Brian,
“Have you tried switching to decaf?”
I have no vices, other than unrelenting postitive thinking and optimism.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:26 am)Probably out of my price range too, though a lot can change in 2 years. Hopefully battery technology will get cheaper and the 2nd generation Volts will be closer to 30K…
Then again, if the current inflationary trend continues gas will cost $8 per gallon and $40K won’t really be that much.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:27 am)I wonder how much of that price is labor and how much cheaper the car could have been if it was built in Mexico for example.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:28 am)I rarely go to the forums, but I started a “guess the Volt” retail price thread.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=790
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:30 am)Note that he says nothing about the price coming down, just that they will start to make money as mass production reduces cost. The price will stay the same once released.
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:32 am)Thank you, Andy # 165. Too many people in the US spend too much money driving around in their living room as it is. If you want a Volt 40, just start saving for the down payment (I mean, it’s not like it’s coming out next Tuesday). You really can’t argue the Volt versus gas car argument for the short term anyway.
Honda Civic (33 mpg)x 120 miles=3.63 gallons x 4.00 gal=$14.52
Chevy Volt (40 MAER)x 120 miles= 3 recharges x 0.80 KwH=$2.40
So for every 120 miles I save $12.12. Wow! That’s 2 filet-o-fish combos with Dr. Peppers and a McNuggets kids meal for my 5 year old. Since we can’t eat regular unleaded (makes my tummy hurt) that’s not bad.
I’m being very sarcastic but in truth, y’all, let’s just wait and see. This isn’t the first time GM has had to recant a statement to the press…
(Quote)
Jun 19th, 2008 (8:36 am)#168 Roman
Mi Amigo? Su commentare es muy malo por hombres in los estados unidos trabajare.
With that comment you hear the collective rage of about half a million pissed-off UAW members.
my spanish is a little off. It would hopefully read something like “my friend? your comment is very bad for people who have to work in the united states”.
I need spanish classes.
(Quote)