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Possible Future Chevy Volt Options – Version One Will Have 40 Miles EV Range

June 16th, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, Engineering, Features

Recently we heard GM might be considering a 20 mile Volt variant in the future. This led to some active discussion, and perhaps some misunderstanding. It must remain perfectly clear, the Chevy Volt when it arrives in 2010 will get 40 miles of EV range.

Tony Posawatz (above) is GM’s Chevy Volt Vehicle Line Director. I checked in with him for some insight as to what future generations of the Volt might bring.

Here is what Tony said:

“After we launch the first Chevrolet VOLT (40 miles of pure battery EV on the EPA city cycle), we may consider offering other product variants. Just as certain cars may offer a 4-cyl., 6-cyl. or V-8 version, we may choose to apply the same concept with the VOLT, that is, perhaps, consider a 20-mile version, 40-mile version & even a 60-mile version if battery technology continues to improve (from a power/energy density and cost perspective). Similarly, we may consider different body styles as well in the future. All of this is dependent on “what the customers want!” Some customers may want a lower priced 2nd/3rd car that gets < 40 miles of pure EV and costs them less due to having less battery on board. It’s all about looking out into the future and making sure that we tap into the future needs and wants of the customers as we build and grow the market for electrically-driven vehicles and establish GM as the leader in this space. Some of these considerations for the future are not to replace the 40-mile VOLT, but to potentially offer more people, more choices around the opportunity to drive electrically and thus continue to alleviate the need for gasoline to power our vehicles going forward. Driving electrically is truly an inspiring and exhilarating experience (I have certainly had some fun recently) and we are putting many miles on our test vehicles each and every day.”

Tony also told me this, “It is good to stay connected to our passionate VOLT enthusiasts and potential future customers. As we look forward and think about GM’s future product portfolio plan (which is under development but far from finalized), let VOLT Nation know that we are listening to their feedback.”

I most certainly will.

Posted by: Lyle

139 Responses to “Possible Future Chevy Volt Options – Version One Will Have 40 Miles EV Range”

Large Smile Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:11 am

60 miles is good, only to find the battery last 2 years. Hahahahahaha!!! Go get it, GM, you will be the no. 2 anyway!

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bruce g Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:11 am

The final version!
It is so beautiful!
All it needs is bucket seats in our choice of fabrics!

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greg woulf Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:29 am

I’d love the same battery in a malibu sized car, with room for a 6′4″ doofus. (me) Options are good. I don’t like the idea of the Volt with 20 mile range, or even variable. I think a lot of the value of the Volt is that it will maintain it’s resale value, just like current cars.

city epa 40 mile range makes me nervous. I was thinking hwy miles of 40. I wonder how far it would get at 70 mph on I95, normal, non-aggressive driving.

Still, it’s all good, can’t wait to see photos of the production version model.

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+1 NZDavid Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:30 am

Well GM if you’re reading this:

Version two = 20 mile range with 5 seats.
Version two = 40 mile range with 5 seats.
Version two = 60 mile range with current 4 seats and costing no more than Version 1’s price.

How about a 4WD SUV?

And when the heck is Lyle going to get his drive????? The suspense is killing me.
Maybe you should invite Statik for balance, if you dare. hehe.

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Steve Townsed Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:37 am

This most certainly sets the record straight. Funny how some took GM’s intentions the wrong way. It’s refreshign how GM is willing to share it’s thoughts with us as they progress. They are sharing with us the bleeding edge of their thought processes. I would hope that most of us are able to appreciate this. Most companies don’t share information as feely. Let’s not so quickly forget…. We are on the cusp of great change here (a hinge in history, if you will) and GM is empowering us with their unprecidented disclosure. To decrease the cost of these batteries they must be able to mass produce. Which will require a need to appeal to a wide spectrum of the buying public. Some can’t afford the $30K plus price tag for a 40 AER, while some may be willing to pay even more for an even greater range. If we want the Volt to succeed, we must allow GM to be as flexible as possible in their approach with the emerging market.

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Joe Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:48 am

Use your imagination and think of all the new ways this new battery technology can be used in the automotive field and of course, not to mention in other fields, also. Rest assured in time all these new ideas will come to life.The DNA of automobiles will have change forever!! Maybe, not far in the future, with the help of our government, we could be energy independent but on second thought, with the mentality of our government, I don’t think that’s possible.

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omegaman66 Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:55 am

Wish list: Chevy Silverado E-Flex.

Note to GM: We all know that a large segment of the population wants to drive trucks. We also know that the truck market took a huge nose dive with the increase in gas. Most people own truck for the purpose of carrying or pulling stuff but only occasionally. Do you want to get 99% of the truck market then offer a line of E-Flex trucks.

Trucks have been abandoned not because we don’t want them but because of the high gas prices. Give me an E-Flex truck capable of pulling my boat!!!

There are fuel efficient cars that have been on the roads for many years. Honda CRX for example. Offer an E-flex truck quickly and you will have basically cornered the truck market like has never been seen before.

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:02 am

“…and costs them less due to having less battery on board. ” He’s still conducting the battery negotiation. #5 Steve said that it’s refreshing that they talk so freely. Let us not be naive. This is GM, a corporation run by accountants, whose recent action in Canda are illustrative. They are looking at the bottom line on battery costs. It is to our interest as well as theirs for these costs to be lower, so at this point our interest and theirs are aligned. We are not principals, though, we are just the potted palms in the back of the stage.

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Brad G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:09 am

Fox News this morning.

Honda just put their hydrogen fuel cell car into production. The Hydrogen fuel cell produces “electricity” to power the car. Water vapor is the exhaust. They are producing limited numbers (to work the bugs out probably) for lease vehicles.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:15 am

Greg Woulf #3, says “city epa 40 mile range makes me nervous. I was thinking hwy miles of 40. I wonder how far it would get at 70 mph on I95, normal, non-aggressive driving.”

Agreed. I have no idea how I missed that. I had always thought the 40 miles was highway. I’m not sure where I got that from, but it has stuck in my head all this time. Now I am wondering what the EV range is for highway driving.

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Brad G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:16 am

The 20 mile range Volt might be alot less if they are using NiCad battery pack vs. the Li-Ion. If the NiCad battery pack was identical to Li-Ion then you could upgrade later on.

Everyone’s driving needs are different. The 20 miler would be perfect for me because I have a 10 mile commute, the 40 miler would be perfect for my brother because he has a 19 mile commute.

Sure the Tesla has great range but who has $100k laying around to buy a car.
Oh, I forgot… Jay Leno does… Hey OOOh

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Murray Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:30 am

I’m one of those outliers who travels 100mi per day (round trip for work)

So as long as the benchmark of 40mi pure EV remains … and I can somehow work out a way to ‘plug-in’ at work … that’s approx 80mi per day that I’m not using gas.

Oh and now thanks to #3 and #10….now I’m worried about the same thing….
What will the range be for HIGHWAY miles @ 70mph?

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Dave B Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:32 am

I think this is all very good news. GM is committed to bringing lots of ranges (although I’d prefer range in excess of 40 miles). It tells me it will be a more expanded line than just Toyota’s Prius.

How about a pure electric Volt with no range extender? That’ll save some weight and cost? I know, we’re a few years down the road. BUT, the internals are already there. Just have the “loser” of the pack contract develop the alternate packs!

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doggydogworld Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:37 am

This is the first time I’ve officially heard 40 miles EV range on “EPA City Cycle”. Has GM said this before? Not good news.

Honda is not making limited numbers of FCXs to work the bugs out. They’re making limited numbers because they lose a bundle on each car and there’s no hope of changing that anytime soon. FCX is an exercise in R&D and PR.

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:45 am

Thanks Lyle for this excellent initiative.

I press GM like the others to give you a ride in the mules very soon.

For the future developments, I’m more in favor of the Opel/Saturn Flextreme which seems more convenient for my own needs.

Statik, look now at what Toyota will propose for the Prius, will there be several versions (different pure EV ranges) available ? Will our theory of Bertrand competition prevail ?

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Van Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:45 am

The claim of the 40 mile AER has been explored before. If a realistic driving cycle is used, USO6, the computer simulation said the range would be about 32 miles. If driven at freeway speed, the range would be about 28 miles.

Bottom line, we will only find out when Lyle is given a mule to drive and drive and report what his actual AER was.

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Statik Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:46 am

Translation:

Those fool engineers, there will be only 1 car, the 40 mile range one. What are you guys crazy? We got a 1-50 shot of getting this out in time! We haven’t even got a supplier picked out! What we are going to go start this process all over again?

In the future…and by future I mean the ‘uncommitted quasi-utopa land where GM has vanquished all comers and has infinite resources and controls time’, (and I am even more super-popular with the ladies), we shall have hundreds of different battery options and styles to choose from.

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Statik Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:57 am

#15 Jean-Charles Jacquemin

Good morning…or for you I guess, good afternoon!

“Statik, look now at what Toyota will propose for the Prius, will there be several versions (different pure EV ranges) available ? Will our theory of Bertrand competition prevail ?”

Honestly JC, I’ve not heard about any other version other than the one that was going to be 4.8kWh NiMH, that is now Li-Ion.

Even with that, I thought no one was really sure if they would be keeping the same power/specs, because the Li-Ion would be so much smaller, there potentially could be a power jump (purely hypothetical fan site speculation).

If you have some new knowledge you could hit us up with, that would be ’swell’

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Statik Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:01 am

The only most current press release confirming production of the 2010 Prius plug-in and mass production of Li-Ion batteries for the same year is here:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-release-plug-in-hybrid-two-new-hybrids-for-2010.html

It does mention that Toyota “is setting up a 50-person battery research department that will be charged with developing newer batteries that will outperform the lithium-ion design” but doesn’t go any further than that.

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Tim Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:14 am

E-Flex is Brilliant!!

Build it into cars, light trucks and crossovers and they WILL sell.

Don’t let the dealers gouge and NEVER stop listening to your customers.

Keep an open mind to new technologies, new inventions and new possibilities.

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/online/news/articles/2008-06/Genepax-unveils-water-energy-fuel-cell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFIbB97HcgY&feature=related

This NEW GM is doing bold and wonderful things.

BRING IT!

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Eco Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:30 am

Yea, it makes a lot of sense to produce different size batteries. I had not really thought about it much. A 20 miler would be a really good idea, especially for fleet sales. A 40 mile AE vehicle at 45K for a small business with 3 vehicles is a stretch. 3 of the 20 milers to replace their minivans at 20K each bought as a package, yea, now you are talking. Fleet owner will break even in no time.

The issue is that 40 miles was not picked out of a hat. Bell-curve average commute time in the US is between 20 and 40 minutes—i.e. 40 miles is at the top range of the “average” commute. For every 5 mile decline in AE range, you lost a bigger chunk of the market, I am guessing.

Bottom line is this for me–at 50 miles, I buy one. At 40, I will if it’s not too much money. At 30, I’m still good. At 20 miles AE, I’m looking at something else until a Flextreme gets back to 30 miles AE, and is under 30K.

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:33 am

My wish list if for an E-Flex small station wagon. Something like a Subaru Outback only not so ugly. I’m hoping GM could deliver something like this quickly, since the chassis, drive train, and front part of the body design could be the same as the Volt.

Also, I’m still concerned that a future 20-mile range option of the Volt will not have adequate acceleration. Battery size affects both energy storage (KWh) and power (KW). The 16KWh (40-mile) battery will supply at least 120KW of power for the 160hp electric motor. An 8KWh (20 mile) battery would presumably supply 1/2 the power, which may equate to only 80hp for acceleration.

Lyle, would you please ask GM about the acceleration of the future 20-mile version of the Volt?

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Gsned57 Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:34 am

To #4 NZDavid,

You are right on! Americans like big cars for the %1 of the time they need the size. The VW bus is the perfect example of what GM should do with the volt. The bus was simply a VW beetle chassis (slightly different) and engine (slightly more HP) with a whole lot of room. Most Americans don’t want an SUV or van to go off road and the most off-roading they’ll ever attempt can be handled by any economy car. Obviously a VW bus has the aerodynamics of a tissue box and would need the engineering and wind tunnel time to get a more aerodynamic body.

So GM if you want to know what we all want, Gsned57 wants a Volt platform with a VW Vanagon type body style. Something that I can go camping in, haul a boat or trailer, and also use as a daily commuter vehicle. I’m sure I’ll be getting a lot of crap for this on the site but you wanted to know what John Q Public wants. ALSO, I’d like the option of 4WD .

To JC 15 and Statik 17, 18, and 19, I own a Prius (as well as a VW Vanagon) and I don’t think a bigger battery is the answer to the prius’s range. The electric motor in the prius isn’t capable of getting the car up to highway speeds given any amount of power. I think Toyota would need to really design a whole new car to get a PHEV like the volt. The 10,000$ upgrade that is out there to boost the prius battery pack essentially turns a Prius into a PHEV, but you still won’t get on the highway without using gas, so I don’t see how it’s worth it. For Toyota to come out with a PHEV like the Volt they’ll need something completely new, but obviously they have a great start with the knowledge they gained creating the prius.

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:36 am

#13 Dave B said “…GM is committed to bringing lots of ranges…”

Let’s stay cool. All GM is committed to is bringing a few Volt40 models to CA as high-priced low-volume vehicles. Thereafter “what’s to come is still unsure.”

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Murray Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:41 am

I’m marking you down Statik for the “1-50 shot” comment…
seems border-line positive for you here on a Monday…

At least you brought it back with the ‘utopia, controlling time’ comment…

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lyleL Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:43 am

The picture is a hydrogen chassis!

Quick where’s the garlic and wooden stake!!

8 RB you are right on!

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KDIB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:45 am

My 2 cents worth
Can’t handle 20 AER, but 30 AER would do it for me.

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nucboy Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:00 am

Options are great. I think they should sell any option that will sell and get the assembly line roaring. Put in a 1 mile battery and sell a cheaper car where the ICE runs continuously and gets 50 mpg for 20-25K. Some can afford the 40 mile EV range, some can afford the 20 mile EV range, and some may only afford an electric motor car with the ICE and a small battery for surges.

A car for everyone.

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:01 am

Gsned57 #23,

Thanks for your input, but Toyota surprised the crowds from time to time in the past.

Statik, have a nice day, I must go.
JC

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:14 am

The ONLY options that GM should be considering is:

40 mile BEV with E85 / gasoline flex fuel range extender
40 mile BEV with diesel range extender
40 mile BEV with fuel cell range extender

From there, GM should be working to reduce battery costs, while increasing battery range (not decreasing), so as to earn more points in CARB’s new hybrid points system, that goes in 50, 100 and 200 mile steps.

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Statik Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:15 am

#25 Murray

“I’m marking you down Statik for the “1-50 shot” comment…
seems border-line positive for you here on a Monday…At least you brought it back with the ‘utopia, controlling time’ comment…”

It does seem a little overly positive for me doesn’t it? It’s a nice day out I guess. I thought flowering up the translation was a nice touch though.

I rate my post….hrmmm…a 5 out of 5…no a 10 out of 10.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:31 am

“40 miles of pure battery EV on the EPA city cycle”

Does anyone understand where this came from?
I honestly thought it was 40 miles HIGHWAY.
Thanks.

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Tom Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Rashid, Greg, Murray, doggydogworld,

The EPA Highway Cycle’s AER is also 40 miles. See data in update posting http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5711#post5711.
The higher speed (60 mph max) of Highway Cycle is balanced by ~32 stop and starts of City Cycle.

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Theoldguy Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:02 am

Hey GM. Put the Volt Power train onto the Malibu MAXX Chasiss.. Same one as the Saturn Arura . Then you have a vehicle capable of transporting 4 people and a decent amount of cargo.. even with the extra weight and size.. the milage could drop to 30 MPC and that would be fine with me. OR. Give me a MAXX with a 50 – 60 MPC range at $ 40,000 and I will come down to the factory and pick it up.

Ray

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:05 am

Thank you, Tom. That is a relief.

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Murray Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:17 am

Cool, thanks Tom #33…

So funny how one little word here or random GM executive ’statement’ there can set us off into ‘Statik’ territory (ie. the negative thoughts from where is it? deep down in the belly region?) …. although I have learned in life that when you think the worst and then something even a little better than the worst becomes reality … you are more prone to ultimately be ’satisfied’

Avoid the highest of the highs as to keep above the lowest of the lows… I’ve also learned this life lesson from being a Philadelphia sports fan… tempering expectations since 1983

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Dr.Science Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:24 am

So the choices are to use electrical energy to generate hydrogen and then use the hydrogen in the fuel cell to generate electrical energy to power an electric motor.
OR- Use electrical energy to charge an electrical storage device and use the stored electrical energy to power an electric motor.

What am I missing here?

Why screw with the hydrogen in the first place?
It’s just another energy consuming step to drive the motor.

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Firefly Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:25 am

Wish List:

50-70 mi AER E-Flex coupe (preferrably 2 seater, lightweight and extremely aerodynamic so that I can give my Volt to my wife when the time comes) – seems the next logical step

E-Flex Truck – doesn’t necessarily have to be full size, just hold 5 people and pull a trailer – if you want to keep truck customers (like here in Alabama where I live) a no-brainer

E-Flex Sport Wagon – NOT an SUV as the gross weight would negate any mileage benefits (better to do an aero, 5 passenger wagon a la Audi Avant and use interior space wisely)

Petition more public places and businesses to install subsidized plug-in parking units for electric vehicle owners

…sounded like a good idea at the time….

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:26 am

Why doesn’t Saturn sell the Astra station wagon? The Opel Astra is essentially the same car, and Opel sells Astra station wagons in Europe. See here for details:
opel.com/brand_sites/astra/launch/my85/

We need an alternative to the Subaru Outback in the U.S. People who need some cargo space can’t afford SUVs any more. Gas is too expensive.

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Jon P. Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:36 am

How about a Tahoe with a 50 mile EV range

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:41 am

Dave G #39

I own and drive an Opel Astra wagon with a 100hp diesel engine, its 45 MPG observed range on more than 115,000 kms of mixed roads is becoming too expensive (diesel costs more than 6€/gallon or more than 9US $ !!! here) so I hope to get an E-flex version of a similar car, the production version of the Opel Flextreme could be my next car.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:41 am

Dave G, #39, The Subaru Outback’s MPG wasn’t/isn’t very good.

I agree with you. Cargo space is a must along with the All-Wheel-Drive. I live where it snows. My Outback was the best thing I ever drove in the snow. Tremendous traction both up hill and down, city driving or highway. But the car broke a lot and was very expensive to fix. I finally dumped it when it died in my driveway.

I believe and AWD EV will come to pass, but not in the short term. I think a wagon style vehicle will show up first, at least from General Motors.

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BDsnyder Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:42 am

Why not produce a pure Ev. If the EV1 was reproduced with today’s LI-Ion batteries it is estimated that it would have a range of 300 miles.

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Jackson Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:46 am

The negative reaction to that Friday the 13th article is not so “funny” if you recall some of the history. I think we all want good things for GM, but they do have a lot to overcome.

I don’t think it was the “20 mile” part of the article that stung as much as “the nature of this technology is that it’s going to be expensive, and we will not underprice this vehicle.” If you come out with the “model 40″ first, as promised, but it turns out that only shorter-range versions will be inexpensive enough for most buyers, I think much of the dissappointment is justified.

For Tony to step up and clarify so quickly is a very positive sign.

Meanwhile, here comes Ford:

http://gas2.org/2008/06/13/prototype-ford-escape-plug-in-hybrid-88-mpg-on-85-ethanol/

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noel park Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:07 am

#14 doggydogworld:

Re the FCX, I do agree. Vaporware at this point, IMHO.

#36 Murray:

Wise advice. I am trying my best to put it into practice.

As a small business person, I would love an E-Flex small pickup to replace my aging S-10. A similarly sized delivery van would work as well.

I think that all of these other ideas have to come later, however. I am good with 40 miles AER as envisioned. Just concentrate on one configuration for now, and get me a bleeping car!

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.

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Vincent Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:15 am

I was holding myself back from making any comments.
Thank God they are not screwing this up.

Please do not make it look like a prius. It’s the ugliest car I have ever seen.

While some potential owners don’t care what it looks like as long as the mileage is there….just as many care about what it looks like. GM will sell many more if it’s “cool”. Never under estimate the selling power of “cool” looks.
Options are nice. A 20 mile range is OK for those that need only that…40 miles is the minimum for mass success. The idea of batter pack options is great. Just do not fall short of the 40 mile target.
Listen….make it sweet looking! Not a Prius!

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pauln Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:33 am

#33 Tom, yes, at the lower speeds of the EPA highway cycle the Volt may have an 40 mile AER. But #3 asked about range at a steady 70 mph. The Volt will not go 40 miles at 70 mph! Tom, why don’t you post a graph showing the range at 70? 75? 80? These are all legal highway speeds, depending where you live.

I wrote an article about some extreme examples of the Volt’s range based on Tom’s excellent calculations:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/chevrolet-volt-home-home-on-the-range/

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D Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:36 am

I can’t believe GM is saying that the battery technology is not sufficient for the longer range. Do they remeber THEIR EV1 more than 10 years ago? That car went over 100 miles on a single charge with NO GAS. I am so tired of these automotive companies pandering to the needs of the already super-rich oil producers. Until “Big Oil” is brought to its knees by a mass-produced all-electric vehicle, we (regular working class American consumers) will never have a chance to own one. It’s a nasty double-edged sword that will either end with the complete destruction of the environment (oil companies’ goal) or the destruction of the oil company. Wouldn’t that be nice?

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Vincent Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:39 am

I Know, I Know…what a joke the range issue is.
Just watched a Shelby Cobra with electric Drive. 120 mile range!
o to 60 in 3.2 seconds. Weighs in at 2,300 pounds.
Give us all break on the range dramas. Stop kissing Oils Ass.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:47 am

Seems GM is learning the hard lesson of NOT speculating too far ahead of current development activities. All that does is open the door for all those who wanted GM to make something else to criticize GM’s current product plan.

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D Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:47 am

Checkout the Phoenix SUV.

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com

Over 100 miles per 10 minute charge!!! Reserve one today and show them what real DEMAND is.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:48 am

D @ 47

Do some research, then come back. These facts have been gone over 1000 times.

I want an E-Flex Camaro. Period.

I spend too much time in a car to be driving a rolling hairball.

I am still holding out hope the the Volt will be well styled. But my confidence is cracking.

Come on GM, you guys have designed some of the best looking cars in history. Your designs in the 60’s are legendary. Don’t sell out for the sake of a few more miles per charge.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:57 am

D @ 50

Sure, not bad looking. But $55,000 !

36,000 mile warrantee. That is pathetic, (1.5 years, for me)
No idea what replacement batteries will cost after 36000 miles.
10 minutes recharge with REALLY EXPENSIVE INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH CHARGING EQUIPMENT!!
5-6 hrs with normal charging.

Sorry, sounds like a crap shoot to me. Good luck with that.

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pauln Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Here’s the “Truth” about the Volt: The 40 mile AER version will be very expensive (think $45k and up), and will stay expensive for years to come. It will be the limited production “green halo” vehicle for GM to show off its green credentials. How can I be so certain? Posawak said that the 20 mile version was part of the effort to bring costs “in half”. So if the the 20 mile Volt eventually comes down to a Prius-competititve $25-$30k, that means the 40 mile Volt will be twice as expensive! Think “green Corvette”.

The 20 mile version will be what GM needs to produce in order to attempt to compete with the coming plug-in Prius. Your hopes of a 40 mile AER Volt at $30k is history. GM simply can’t aford to sell it at huge losses. Reality sets in after all of Lutz’s sunny optimism wears off:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-55-45k-20-mile-ev-range-huh/

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MDDave Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

D @ 47:

I dislike the oil copanies as much as the next person, but their goal is not the complete destruction of the environment. Their goal is to make money by preserving the status quo–that is, transportation that requires gas/oil. GM seems like it has been sharing that same goal for a long time, and now it’s paying the price for that. Hopefully, GM can sucessfully execute a shift to building cars that people now want in light of such high gas prices.

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

#37 Dr Science asks “So the choices are to use electrical energy to generate hydrogen and then use the hydrogen in the fuel cell to generate electrical energy to power an electric motor.
OR- Use electrical energy to charge an electrical storage device and use the stored electrical energy to power an electric motor….
Why screw with the hydrogen in the first place?”

I am not a fan of hydrogen, but here is the argument. The generation of hydrogen can be done outside the car. (It can be done in a refinery, in a filling station, or in a garage, depending on who is advocating). Then the hydrogen can be put in the car in a few minutes, like gasoline. So even though use of hydrogen is less efficient overall, use of hydrogen may be more attractive to car owners. If one thinks about fleets (civilian or military), the idea of maximum uptime for the vehicle is attractive. Essentially, it is using hydrogen as an energy storage device, instead of gasoline or a battery.

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NorthernPiker Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

This all-electric range (AER) debate disappears if the battery modules are standardized – size, shape, voltage, management system interface. Then you could order additional batteries from GM or from whoever to increase the AER from the minimum – 40 miles right now. GM would benefit by having multiple suppliers and the customer would benefit by getting the AER close to what they need. After all, one size does not fit all.

Standardization of PHEV batteries, chargers et al. is the subject of a discussion on AutologGreen.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/16/should-we-be-thinking-about-standardized-everything-for-plug-in/

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 12:58 pm

#54 RB,

I know you’re not a hydrogen fan, but the argument you lay out has huge holes in it.

Making hydrogen from electricity and water is incredibly inefficient and expensive. Most hydrogen will be made from NATURAL GAS.

And by the way, with all the inefficiencies of creating, storing, distributing, and converting hydrogen, the total emissions (well to wheel) from a Honda FCX end up being worse than a Prius. See here for details:
stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf

That’s why they call them FOOL SELLS.

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

#53 MDDave,
Yes. Well said.

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Theoldguy Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

I am with noel # 45… Just get the car out there..

I would like to see it on the MAXX Chassis and have the ICE run on propane… ZERO Emissions other than heat and water…..

Or send me a Volt (40+ MPC ) with a gas ICE and I can have it converted to gas/propane for 1500 bucks and then I would have electric, then over to propane when the batteries need charging and when I run out of propane… and automatically switch to gas… depending on the size of the propane tank and the gas tank…. 1000 KMS would not be difficult to get… 40 MPC and then 40 MPG on propane and then up to 50 MPG on the gas..
something to think about.. and we have propane stations all over CANADA ..

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

#58 Theoldguy,
The Honda CNG is a good example of a natural gas engine. See here:
stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf
(page 4) to see how the emissions stack up against other cars. IT’S THE WORST ON THE CHART!

As I said before, huge power plants are vastly more efficient than small portable engines, so much so that a car running on electricity made from natural gas has less than 1/3 of the emissions of a car that runs on natural gas directly.

We need cars that run on electricity from batteries.

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TOM M Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

noel park # 45

Did you see the rest of the story FCX ?

They are going to Hollywood stars and the likes. They can only be leased for $600 hundred per month and only 200 will be made at present.
I believe this is strickley PR.

God Bless America
Tom

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Raymond Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

Someone explain to me why a gas powered car is more efficient on the highway than city and an electric car more efficient in city than highway? Is it only because; completely stopped, the electric wehicle’s motor does not consume any energy and a little energy is recuperated when braking?

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

#43 BDsnyder says:
“If the EV1 was reproduced with today’s LI-Ion batteries it is estimated that it would have a range of 300 miles.”

The Tesla Roadster has a range of 250 miles. Go buy that one!

LI-Ion batteries are not cheap. I don’t think you’ll find an electric car with similar range for much less money than the Roadster. With today’s battery technologies and prices, a 40-mile E-REV makes the most sense.

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eric cosimini Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

I’m still not clear on if the battery will be replacable with a larger or smaller battery. Say you get the 20 mile range volt because you can’t afford the 40 or 60. Will you be able to later buy a bigger battery and swap it in? I hope so! Ebay would soon have some 20 mile battery listings from people upgrading i’m sure.

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

#63 Raymond,

With hybrids, all of the stop and go driving in the city doesn’t really hurt mileage that much. The regenerative brakes absorb the “stop”s, and the electric motor absorbs the “go”s. When you stop at a traffic light, the engine turns off. But on the highway, the wind resistance comes into play and hurts mileage. So a hybrid is around the same or maybe even a little better mileage in the city.

For a regular gas engine car, highway wind resistance is less than the efficiency lost in stop and go driving. So a gas engine car gets better mileage on the highway.

At least this is the way I understand it.

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nasaman Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

About 6 weeks ago, very detailed published information (almost as good as specific GM inside information) made it clear that……..

- The Gen 1 Volt battery should last 100,000 miles and/or 15 years

- The Gen 1 Volt battery pack should NOT cost GM >$3,500 each

WE SHOULD NOT LOOSE SIGHT OF THIS PUBLISHED INFORMATION AMIDST THE MYRIAD OF DIVERSE (often undocumented or completely unsupported) OPINIONS EXPRESSED HERE!
============================================================
Source: My post #57 at http://gm-volt.com/2008/05/10/continental-ceo-thinks-they-has-good-chance-of-winning-volt-contract/

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

#65 eric cosimini,
You’re talking about buying a Volt with a 20-mile range and then later swapping out the 20-mile battery for a 40 or 60 mile battery. I would suspect this would be like buying a regular gas car with a 4 cylinder engine and then later swppaing it out for a V6. Yes, people do it, but it’s not very common. One thing to remember is all the software that manages the battery, motor, charger, etc.. With a different size battery, you might need different control software.

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Jeff M Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

What year was that photo taken? For some reason between the suit, mustache, and hair cut, it looks like it’s a time warp to the 1970’s

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nasaman Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

BREAKING NEWS: Nissan Predicts EV Cost Parity in Seven Years <<(GM: Note re Volt pricing!)

“The cost of electric vehicles will drop dramatically to match combustion-engine cars within just seven years, according to Nissan’s head of global research and development.

“Improvements in battery, motor and inverter technology will drive the cost downwards, said Mitsuhiko Yamashita, Nissan’s R&D chief.

“Economies of scale in battery manufacture will make the biggest impact on electric vehicle costs, because the battery makes up to 30 to 40% of an electric vehicle’s cost.

“Other savings will come through a lower parts count on electric vehicles and easier design and manufacture.

Source: http://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?id=95131

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

#58 Dave G

As you noted, I am not a hydrogen fan, for the reasons you gave, and more. I don’t expect hydrogen to become widespread in the USA. It might be in China, or maybe in the US in some specialized situations.

I am only trying to say what the case is, in its favor. I see it as basically that (1) a hydrogen car does not require gas, and (2) if a source of hydrogen is available, the vehicle can be fueled in a few minutes. Hydrogen serves as a way to transfer energy quickly from the souce to the car.

The reason I don’t see widespread use of hydrogen in vehicles happening in the USA is the cost of creating the hydrogen source (refinery, stations, whatever), just as you pointed out. Hydrogen is plentiful but getting hydrogen separated from oxygen is expensive. Maybe in China the economics are different (I just don’t know).

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Big Picture Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Also from Nissan:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121320799221764997.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Approx. 250 mile range projected by 2015.

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NorthernPiker Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

#70 nasaman

At capital price parity with a conventional vehicle (CV) , the life cycle cost of an EV should be less than that of a CV due to fuel savings (even after road taxes, however they are collected), maintenance savings and higher residue value of the power train – batteries, electric motors, inverters and chargers.

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mien green Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Dave G @ 68

The only way it would make sense for multiple battery options in a single production Volt model is to have one mid-car battery well size to accommodate all options, for economy of parts and assembly. That is, one battery case superstructure regardless of internal cell quantity to provide the structural rigidity required at the car spine. The control software can always be driven off of remaining amperage set points independent of battery capacity.

This would also allow aftermarket flexibility as others have alluded to.

Otherwise, the different battery sizes would make more sense in multiple models/styles with separate production lines.

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

#70 nasaman, #72 big picture

Thank you for the links to the Nissan comments. Japan is very strong in forging links across companies. They are tough competition.

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Tagamet Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Paulon@54
At least you has the sense to put “truth” in quotes. You know nothing more than we do, and you really should try to avoid websites that hawk “the truth about” anything.
Just friendly advice.
Tag

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noel park Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

#62 TOM M:

Hah! Maybe the celebrities can fuel them up at Ahhnold’s faux hydrogen station at LAX.

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BDsnyder Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

1. #43 BDsnyder says:
“If the EV1 was reproduced with today’s LI-Ion batteries it is estimated that it would have a range of 300 miles.”

Dave G Response
The Tesla Roadster has a range of 250 miles. Go buy that one!
LI-Ion batteries are not cheap. I don’t think you’ll find an electric car with similar range for much less money than the Roadster. With today’s battery technologies and prices, a 40-mile E-REV makes the most sense.

Bdsnyder Replies:

The Tesla Roadster is designed as a high performance “Sport Car” catering to the super rich and wealthy of the world with only limited numbers being produced. If the EV1 was reproduced in significant numbers (remember the original EV1 was basically a hand build car) the price of the car would drop. Also, if the U.S. government was really serious about Global warming and our dependence on foreign oil they could off a tax incentive toward the purchase of a pure EV. The state of Israel through “Project Better Place” will be removing all taxes on the purchase of an electric car. By offering this tax incentive Israel will be placing the electric car on the same price level as ICE car.

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noel park Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

#75 RB:

Second the motion.

Does anyone remember Arte Johnson on the old “Laugh In” show? Wasn’t he the one who always said “Veeerrreee Interesting”?

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Tom Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

I suspect that Tony Posawatz had not clearly stated what he meant when he said the battery is half the cost. For the numbers to work out, he must have meant that the 20 mile AER battery costs half of the 40 mile AER battery.

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

#71 RB,

We agree. If you haven’t already done so, please google “Why a hydrogen economy doesn’t make sense”. Ulf Bossel heads up the European Fuel Cell Forum, and has been working in fuel cell research for many years.

Here’s a quote:
“In the market place, hydrogen would have to compete with its own source of energy, i.e. with (”green”) electricity from the grid,” he says. “For this reason, creating a new energy carrier is a no-win solution. We have to solve an energy problem not an energy carrier problem.”

So I don’t think the economics of China will make a better case for fuel cells.

In fact, the only country where hydrogen makes any sense is Iceland. Iceland has:
- a relativly small population
- gobs of geo-thermal electricity
- lots of clean water
- a climate that’s hard on today’s batteries
So Iceland is investigating fuel cells.

But for everyone else in the world, hydrogen and fuel cells are a classic red herring.

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

#78 BDsnyder,

Yes, high volume will drive down price, but I don’t think a 300-mile BEV will ever be price competitive. Large Batteries are inherently expensive. Also, batteries are big and heavy. The Tesla Roadster is a 2-seater for a good reason – with all those batteries, these is no room for 4 seats.

For me, the obvious answer is the E-REV. If everyone drove an E-REV, 75% of our gasoline consumption would be converted to electricity. The remaining 25% could be covered by cellulosic ethanol and/or bio-diesel. This is all with very little change to our existing infrastructure.

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Statik Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

#67 Nasaman

“- The Gen 1 Volt battery should last 100,000 miles and/or 15 years
- The Gen 1 Volt battery pack should NOT cost GM >$3,500 each
WE SHOULD NOT LOOSE SIGHT OF THIS PUBLISHED INFORMATION AMIDST THE MYRIAD OF DIVERSE (often undocumented or completely unsupported) OPINIONS EXPRESSED HERE!”

Ain’t that the truth! While I think $3,500 is probably a little on the ‘low’ side of the costing, it is still interesting to see things taken so out of hand like, “the phantom 20 mile range Volt is 1/2 price” all conjectured from some random talking head.

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Statik Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 3:32 pm

#36 Murray

“So funny how one little word here or random GM executive ’statement’ there can set us off into ‘Statik’ territory…. although I have learned in life that when you think the worst and then something even a little better than the worst becomes reality … you are more prone to ultimately be ’satisfied’ Avoid the highest of the highs as to keep above the lowest of the lows… I’ve also learned this life lesson from being a Philadelphia sports fan… tempering expectations since 1983″
.
.
.

You are right Murray, I can honestly say I am not let down by my expectations too often, lol.

Side note on you being a Philly fan, I’m a Detroit Tiger fan myself. Boy have I had some great times complaining about them before the last couple years. I think that was the attraction. I always get a smile whenever the fans boo off one of their own.

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Len Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

The battery box will have to drop out of the bottom. You could use different capacity batteries in the same box. The interface could have all the information it needs to handle any different charging profiles.

I still think the half price for half the EV range comment was ment to prepair us for a more expensive 40 mile EV volt. I am hoping that it just means that the first ones will be about $39K and the second gen 20 mile EV varient will come in just under $20K. That car will sell like hotcakes.

A 20 mile EV varient powered by A123 cells will have plenty of acceleration. The A123 cells deliver up to twenty times their capacity for short periods, they also will charge very fast up to 80% full. They also don’t start fires when damaged or overcharged like every other lion tech I know of that will deliver high currrent for their size. I know of people who use a short length of zip cord as a resister and charge them straight off batteries or power supplies while monitoring with a volt meter. Did I say that I am impressed with the A123 cells?

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CDAVIS Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

___________________________________________________
Twenty years from now, every new consumer car purchased in America will be PHEV / EV. Range extenders of many flavors (including hydrogen) will become a bridge solution until battery technology and EV re-charging options make the range extenders obsolete.

Every automotive manufacturer is in the process of making far reaching strategic planning on how much and when to throw resources at the ICE to EV transition.

GM will be a big winner in the ICE to EV transition race if it becomes hyper aggressive in transitioning its ENTIRE portfolio line to EV and is able to communicate that they are the race leaders.

At the time of the VOLT launch in 2010, GM should consider re-branding GM to GM-VOLT and making a public declaration that GM will convert all their product lines to EV by 2020; analogous to the JFK Moon Speech. The VOLT concept should be a GM corporate re-identity rather than a product line concept identity.

“I believe we possess all the resources and talents necessary. But the facts of the matter are that we have never made the national decisions or marshaled the national resources required for such leadership. We have never specified long-range goals on an urgent time schedule, or managed our resources and our time so as to insure their fulfillment.” Source: JFK 1961 / Text / A Special Address to Congress. Full Speech Text: http://www.homeofheroes.com/presidents/speeches/kennedy_space.html

Some GM executives have referred to the VOLT project as “GM’s Moon Shot”. Problem is that most of GM’s franchise dealerships and the general public are not aware of this fact. The VOLT program is curretnly mostly perceived as a bold product line experiment rather than a GM absolute commitment to go to the Moon.

_____________________________________________________

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canehdian Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

#63 Raymond
Think of it this way (with current hybrid technology)
When you stop at a light, the regen brakes slow down the car, turning your kinetic energy (speed) into electrical energy. Then, when you start up again, using the electric engine, you’re reversing this process. (Ideally a net loss of 0 energy – though, nothing is ever perfect )

In a regular gas car, every time you hit the brakes, you’re “throwing away” energy, the hybrid’s aim to recapture it and minimize losses.

On the freeway, the two are pretty much identical, as they both have wind resistance increasing fuel usage (optimum speed is 55-70mph, 90-110km/h). This is why gas cars are often 10+ mpg better on the freeway – less energy “thrown away” by braking.

Edit: Just to add, with the volt, it will be a different system – the only drivetrain will be electric – so energy recaptured can go back to the battery as it is in hybrids. The difference is that the gas engine never needs to be used as long as you have enough power left. If the power gets too low, the engine is not connected to the wheels, and can run at its peak performance to generate more electricity for less fuel (in theory) than it would take to be driving the car if it were gas. Thus, the 50+ mpg estimate.

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OzoneLevel Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

#86 Right on!

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omegaman66 Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

My my… it is fun to speculate and talk about different aspects of the Volt but man apparently some people here keep going off the deep end before the facts even come out.

As of right now we do not know what the Volt will look like. Anyone with a brain should have known concept cars never make it to production looking like they did as a concept.

As of right now we don’t know what the final cost for the Volt will be and the final cost of a car that may never be made (20 mile range Volt) is even less well know.

As of right now we don’t have any figures on the range of the Volt on the highway or the city at the beginning of life or at end of life. Everything released by GM was based on calculations.

Another point. People keep getting totally bummed out over having to use the gasoline engine in the volt at all. If you use the gasoline engine 8 miles a day going to work that would only be 40 miles a week. Which at 4 dollars a gallon would end up costing you less than 4 dollars a week.

Don’t lose sight of the fact that this volt would still out perform todays priuses even if the volt had an aer of only 3 miles.

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

#89 omegaman66 says:
“People keep getting totally bummed out over having to use the gasoline engine in the volt at all. If you use the gasoline engine 8 miles a day going to work that would only be 40 miles a week.”

Yes – exactly. I think we need to use way less oil, and the faster we can get there the better. An E-REV is the perfect vehicle to do that.

I think all this talk of pure BEVs and a electric filling stations is – how shall I say – way too optimistic. We may get there eventually, but for right now, we need more cars like the Volt.

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Eric E Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

#7 Omegaman66

Say it loud brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An E-Flex 4WD SUV that will haul my family AND my boat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The day WILL come…just a matter of WHEN.

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mien green Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

79 noel park

And he was tricycle riding challenged to boot. Dunno if that might be construed as an harbinger for green transportation, tho.

Say goodnight, Dick.

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StevePA Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

The man said GM will consider other body styles and configurations…what the customers want…

This customer would love a PHEV Corvette…
Now THAT would be a challenge to engineer.

Can pick up a well-equipped new 2008 coupe today for about 50K (market, not MSRP). Would pay another 15K for a PHEV version.

Guessing that little dream may be a decade or so down the road.

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Peter Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

Hi, GM,

VOLT is the first American car that I am really interested. I once vowed never to buy any American cars because of their lousy quality and endless recalls, plus the bad gas mileage.

Please:
1) Be sure its quality is super super good. “Reliability” is missing from GM’s dictionary for a long long time. I am talking about at least 10 years and 200,000 miles. My Toyota is passing 260,000 miles and is still running happily!

2) Be sure the look is not too dramatic. The concept car is very very ugly. I hate it. Please take a look at the corolla. Please consider a small car version (similar to Corolla) for us.

I am a senior software engineer and electronic control engineer. If I can be of any help, please feel free to let me know.

Go! GM! This can be your only chance to win back the customers.

Peter

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PhoenixSUT Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

GM better get busy. Has anyone seen the Phoenix SUT ? It’s available NOW. Uses Li-Ion battery, 130 mile range, can fully charge in 10 minutes, 95mph and cost $48K. And it looks awesome. See it at the link below:

http://tinyurl.com/46sklt

This is a very nice fully electric Sport Truck, made in Kalifornia, and on the road NOW.

Did I mention, that it is available NOW.

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Firefly Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

new tech is always expensive to the early adopters. we might as well eat the first 150,000 and revel in the fact that we got them first. selling them is the only way to make money to build more and spread the costs around.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

#7 omegaman66

Why stop at asking for an Chevy Silverado E-Flex to pull your boat? Why not ask for an E-Flex boat (just kidding)?

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Wayne Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Go GM! I hope they blow everyone else away! I feel like Toyota is more like GM use to be (now they are so big). They take slow steps. How many years are they going to run the Prius with the same technology anyway?

I’ll have to say I expected the 40 mile City. Once your going 70 you have wind resistance, but in more big cites the high speed at rush hour is more like 35-50 with lots of re-gen breaking.

It didn’t say if it’s 40 miles with A/C on. In Phoenix (110 today), that a/c will be on even in traffic. It’s required.

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Ed M Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

Well GM if your reading these how about making me the happiest man on the planet with a pickup the size of the current Dodge Dakota that can tow 3000 lbs but runs on battery when not towing. 20-30 miles per charge would be terrific.

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

#81 Dave G

Thanks; interesting link (to the downsides of ‘hydrogen economy’). If I had not been already persuaded, I would have been.

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mmcc Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

#95 PhoenixSUT
“can fully charge in 10 minutes”

Yeah, but you gotta park really close to Hoover dam. ;>}

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Eric Marshall Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

Fast (10 minute) charging is only needed when traveling long distances on the highway.

Service/Charge Stations that cater to this would have storage tanks ie. banks of batteries ready to quick transfer to the BEV and then slowly recharge overnight when rates are low.

Naturally they would charge more for the convenience.

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Jackson Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

If your choice of range (20 or 40) is based on your one way commute to work, you should be aware that:

1) More cycles = less battery life. If GM gets a black eye from the experiences of double-cyclers halving the expected lifetime, they may rue the day they ever adopted a 20-miler (if they proceed with this half-range variant)

2) Estimates of the existing electric infrastructure’s ability to handle fleets of plug-in hybrids (or E-REVs, or EVs) assumes that most charging will take place at night, off-peak. If it becomes the norm to plug in at night, and during the day, it could force ever more expensive electric power bills as utilities struggle to compensate.

This also goes for the 40-mile model for people who travel 60 – 100 plus miles daily, expecting to recharge at work. Maybe more so, since we’re talking larger amounts of electricity.

This leads me to another question (whether or not a 20-miler is adopted):

For those of us who find ourselves just beyond the cusp of an all-electric experience (21 or 42 mile commutes, for example), how will the ICE range-extender take to being run less than 5 miles a day? I seem to recall that many short trips in a conventional car, where the engine never has a chance to completely warm up, are more destructive to it’s lifetime than fewer (even longer) trips.

So, in other words, will people who use their ICE more get a longer life from that engine than people who must tide the battery over a few miles daily?

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Jackson Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

I like your idea, Eric Marshall (#102), especially since a quick-charge station need not be equipped with high-density (and expensive) L/Ion batteries.

Some batteries being considered for electric utilities are the size of tractor/trailers (maybe thermal chemistry?) which would be impractical for any type of vehicle (This is being considered especially where wind energy is beginning to take hold). If such a battery becomes an “off the shelf” item, such a station could be the answer to a lot of PHEV problems: especially for apartment dwellers, never mind “long-rangers.”

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PhoenixSUT Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

#101 mmcc
Okay, the Phoenix SUT can be charged in 10 minutes if you setup a 500 amp circuit. The vehicle does come with the “10 minute” connector. But most people will probably charge it at home, which will use the alternate connector (that also ships with the vehicle). So, using the alternate connector, a full charge takes 5 to 6 hours. Not that bad. PhoenixMotorCars is trying to get gas stations in Kalifornia to offer the 500 amp plug and charge about $5 to “fill-up” the SUT. Maybe the State of Kalifornia can kick-in some “environmental” incentives (aka Tax Break, subsidies, etc) to get more of these trucks on the road.

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Jake Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

I’m going to echo omegaman’s comments…people should stop jumping to conclusions that have zero basis in fact. Take a deep breath and be patient. All we know is that GM will MAYBE produce other versions of the Volt (or E-Flex) that MIGHT have a 20 or 60 or 34.6745 mile range at SOME POINT in the future. This is based on ONE statement from ONE GM employee with NO official product announcements or anything of the sort. The fact that Lyle needed to post a clarification on this site to remove the confusion from the previous post is a bit pathetic, if you ask me. But hey, at least we are enthusiastic.

While we’re dreaming about future E-Flex vehicles, I would prefer a wagon body style for more cargo space. 5 seats would be much preferred as well. The Saturn/Opel Flextreme could be right up my alley if it ever gets made.

Also, I’m intrigued about the idea of making a pure BEV. Remove the range extender and put a bunch of batteries in its place…maybe you could get 100 solid miles. Price could be an issue though.

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Ed M Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

PhoenixSUT95
I found the Phoenix sports pickup very interesting and can get such good battery mileage already and charge within 10 minutes. I wonder why GM isn’t planning to do something like this, or are they ?

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:11 pm

#103 Jackson asks “So, in other words, will people who use their ICE more get a longer life from that engine than people who must tide the battery over a few miles daily?”

My guess is that the engine will last a long time either way, but longer when it is used less. After all, even on an extended trip the ICE will come on and off. So the ICE will be optimized for one or more fairly short cycles, not extended runs, as in present cars..

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PhoenixSUT Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

I believe the battery in the Phoenix SUT has been tested successfully at more than 20,000 recharge cycles and has an expected lifetime of at least 12 years. They are supposed to be producing thousands (not hundreds) of these trucks THIS YEAR. A 10 minute charge is ideal for Taxi fleets at cities/airports/hotels etc. They also will begin offering a secondary battery pack that will double the range (i.e. 260+ miles !!). I guess it might take 20 minutes to charge them both, or find two FAT outlets.

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Ed M Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

I wonder if the Volt will perform exactly the same way when the extender motor is operating as it does when its only battery power ?

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Jackson Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:25 pm

Thanks, RB (#108), I hadn’t thought of it that way, but you’re likely dead-on.

It may be that with a battery close to end-of-life, the Volt might perform better with the ICE running, Ed M (#110); but this shouldn’t be the case unless something is wrong.

The Consumer is (hopefully) about to get a taste of high-performance electric propulsion, I doubt if they’ll ever want to go back.

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

#94 Peter,

Yes, I agree with both points. Reliability is essential. Vocal enthusiasts like dramatic body designs, but most people like a more normal look.

Also, I’m pretty sure you’re not the only technical guy on this forum. In fact, I think most of us are, but won’t admit it…

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

#94 Peter,
By the way, if you want to know the intricacies of the control algorithms, the AC induction motor would be a good place to start. See here for details:
teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45

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Ed M Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Jackson #111
“The Consumer is (hopefully) about to get a taste of high-performance electric propulsion, I doubt if they’ll ever want to go back.”

I agree wholeheartedly. I haven’t found the throaty roar of a combustion engine applealing since I left my teens. A quiet energetic ride is going to be like flying, I can hardly wait.

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

110 Ed M

GM has said the intent is for the car to perform the same with or without the ICE running. That makes sense when one realizes that all the ICE is doing is recharging the battery or possibly supplying current as if it was the battery. The electrons to the motor don’t know where they are coming from

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Dave G Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:59 pm

#100 RB,
If you’re interested, here’s a link that show how the Honda FCX (fuel cell car) stacks up against the Prius, Jetta TDI, Tesla Roadster, and others.:

stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf

Page 4 has a graph on carbon emissions.

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CarHistory Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

It sure is funny to see history repeat itself. If I remember correctly electric cars existed before ICE cars. There is another old technology that produces huge amounts of energy and was also use before ICE. I think it was called STEAM. Any chance your next automobile might have a steamy future ??? Don’t laugh. Anything is possible. In the future most of our water will be so polluted that the only good use for it might be some hi-tech steam engine. ha ha.

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Ice Ice Baby Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

If I buy my Volt and turn on any of these accessories will the ICE automatically come on ??

My hi-performance surround sound stereo.
My large LCD/DVD/SatTV Navigation system.
My auxilary electric powered air-pump(tires) and electric-assisted jack(flat).
My electric convertable top.
Air Conditioner
Heater with massive blowers.
Built-in WiFi and WiMax access point.
On-Star “Big Brother” package.
Built-in charging station for all my gadgets.

Also, will I be able to remotely monitor/start my Volt with my iPhone using ANY of the following protocols: WiFi, WiMax, LTE, GSM, CDMA, UWB and of course BLUETOOTH ?

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swimdad623 Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:55 pm

#116 Dave G

I noticed in the Stanford PDF that the authors said that it wasn’t possible to get more than 49 miles/kg of Hydrogen, while Honda’s release today said that the Clarity averages 74 miles/kg of Hydrogen.

I think Stanford’s a little behind the technology. Could it be related to Tesla’s logo on every page?

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Terry K Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:02 pm

I’m so glad Bob and Tony had that little talk, and got everything straightened out. The Volt 40 comes first.

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tomnatcaleb Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

I think all these choices are a great idea. I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design. I’ll be in the market for 2 cars around the time this comes out, and I’d love to know a wagon version is in the makes. Just a thought. Maybe they can design the seats and doors with innovation to make it work in a similar way as a sedan. However, it’s great to move stuff and people around in a wagon…..a cool wagon. Just a thought, GM.

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Adam Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:24 am

I drive 3 miles to work, 6 miles to the gym and 3 to the grocery store. A 20 mile battery would be absolutely perfect! I would think that if GM made a Chevy Colorado that got at least 20 – 30 miles on electric that would be the hottest selling truck there is. Also do the same with an Envoy/Trailblazer and you would see SUV sales pick up big time. In fact the only reason I wouldn’t buy one of those is the poor mileage.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:50 am

#115 RB,
Actually, the ICE & generator supplies much less power than the battery. The electric motor is around 120KW, which translates to around 160hp. The ICE & generator produce around 1/2 that, 53KW if I remember correctly.

But this is not a problem. Here’s why. The ICE turns on when the battery reaches 30% state of charge (SOC). After that, the ICE varies it’s output to keep the battery at 30% SOC. With a 16KWh battery, this translates to 4.8KWh, so there is still ample battery energy storage and power to feed the 120KW electric motor.

The key is that the ICE & generator provides AVERAGE horsepower, while the batteries and electric motor provide PEAK horsepower for acceleration or driving uphill. Even if you’re driving up a steep mountain, the 30% SOC in the battery is enough to get you there, so average horsepower is less than 1/2 of peak horsepower in any real world scenario.

Now if you cut the battery size in half for a 20-mile version, all this could change.

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nasaman Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:10 am

121 tomnatcaleb , 122 Adam…….
Regarding wanting an E-Flex station wagon, compact truck or SUV, GM has just released the Saturn 2 Mode hybrid VUE for production this fall as a 2009 model. It should offer a greater improvement in overall mileage (vs the standard VUE) than a single mode hybrid (like Prius) because the first mode is optimized for city driving & the second mode for highway driving. The VUE has two 74HP electric motors (148HP total) and its gas engine is essentially the same 3.6L V6 used in the CTS Cadillac. So this hybrid should have TONS of hauling/pulling power, but its gas mileage is said to be comparable to that of a 4-cylinder Camry.

This new 2 Mode compact/crossover SUV is also the basis for GM’s other plug-in due out in the fall of 2010 along with the Volt and it is reportedly already in road testing. As a plug-in, GM will greatly increase the VUE’s Li-Ion battery size and optimize its control algorithms for maximum efficiency & EV-only range, city & hwy. They are promising an EV-only (AER) range of >10 miles.*

*How MUCH greater than 10 miles is unknown; however, I’m lobbying GM for a version with 35-40 miles AER comparable to that for the Volt

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Brad G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:59 am

#19 Statik

It does mention that Toyota “is setting up a 50-person battery research department that will be “charged” with developing newer batteries that will outperform the lithium-ion design” but doesn’t go any further than that.

>>>Bad Pun

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Brad G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:01 am

#37 Dr. Science

So the choices are to use electrical energy to generate hydrogen and then use the hydrogen in the fuel cell to generate electrical energy to power an electric motor.
OR- Use electrical energy to charge an electrical storage device and use the stored electrical energy to power an electric motor.

What am I missing here?

Why screw with the hydrogen in the first place?
It’s just another energy consuming step to drive the motor.

>>>With Hydrogen the Oil Companies can keep you coming back…

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:26 am

I had some pretty negative things to say yesterday about the Honda FCX. While I still believe what I said, an article in this morning’s paper made some interesting points.

There was a waiting list of 50,000(!) people for the 500 FCXs available. This for a car which leases for $600/month, and for which there are something like 10 refueling stations available in Southern California. And, they mentioned that SoCal was chosen for emphasis because of the large number of fueling stations there!

While this clearly remains an R&D/PR exercise, there is a cautionary tale here about the pent up demand for super high mileage, “environmentally friendly” vehicles.

Come on GM. The train is leaving the station.

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:32 am

#105 PheonixSUT:

Ve in Kalifornia do not need “Tax Breaks” for ze Pheonix SUT. Ve haf ze “Hydrogen Highway”. Alzo, ve don’t haf any money for “Tax Breaks” unless ve can borrow against ze future lottery vinnings.

Didn’t ve “kut up ze kredit kards? Zen vhy are ve sthill broke? Vhat is goink on?

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:47 am

Dear Noel, #128

Is taht the new kalifornian ? See I begin to write like you. Is taht the effect of the smog above you ?

Regards JC

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Jeremy Kozee Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

I think this is the most genius idea since the invention of the combustion engine. However, I believe it can be taken one step further and I have already submitted that idea to GM for their consideration.

I know that I will be buying one.

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:08 pm

#129 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:

Our esteemed, formerly Austrian, Governator pronounces it Kalifornia, so I am just trying to get in style. I assumed that such is what PheonixSUT was referring to.

Zis is vhat happens vhen you elect high officials based upon zeir movie star “acting” qualities as opposed to any sort of demonstrated public service experience or qvalifications.

No offense meant to our German or Austrian friends. The guy is just a parody of himself, alas.

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Noel Park #131

Do you mean that his muscles are as false as the LA hydrogen station you mentioned sometime ago ?
OR
Do we have to protect ourselves, is there a risk that you become a new Terminator with a lot of Kapacities if you already speak Kalifornian ?

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Kevin Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

That interesting i think gm is very serious about making this a mass marketed car . Now what they should also be thinking about is a crossover vehicles like the mkx or ford focus that gets 60 miles of ev and has a range extender .Then people will be begging for the car lol . The versatility of a crossover matched with the agility and speed of a compact sedan and to top it all off using very little or in many cases no gas on daily commute . What else could people want ! .

p:s – the crossover should be based on the volt concept seeing as the volt will be the first of its kind for gm

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Jim I Says:
June 18th, 2008 at 2:01 am

Why are so many of you surprised that GM is thinking about other vehicles or changes to the design of the Volt after it is released? Of course they are!! Did you think they would stop at the Gen-1 Volt?

There will be dozens of different models, all with different range options, to allow the maximum number of people to purchase the vehicle of their needs and that is in their price range….

I think this is good news!

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CS GUY Says:
June 21st, 2008 at 11:18 pm

What do people want from their E-Flex vehicle? Answer: everything.

How about having a chassis with all the electronics, battery pack, propulsion (preferably in-wheel motors on all 4 wheels) and ICE gen set and universal connecting points to attach the cabin of the vehicle.

This would allow great savings due to mass producing many units of the chassis. And since the connections (physical and electrical /electronic) are standard you could swap them out as your needs change. Either as a rental (need a pickup truck for that weekend project?) or as an upgrade (as the family grows the convertible becomes a hatchback?)

Different cabin models may also contain extra battery storage to extend range. If you change jobs and need a longer range, just upgrade your cabin and keep the same chassis.

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Tagamet Says:
June 21st, 2008 at 11:25 pm

CS GUY@135
That’s what the “skateboard” was designed to do. Unfortunately, that was supposed to use fuel cells, not batteries. EVENTUALLY, batteries may be powerful enough to fit, but not just yet.
Be well,
Tag

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speeddemon Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Here is how to make this car REALY cool. Make a switch there that would make the car go real fast. I know it will kill the batary range. But give the driver such ability. Let say to do 0-60 in 5-6 sec(if you can do in 2.5 also works for me) I heard it’s not hard to achive for electric motor. GM will get more younger customers this way.

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wise1 Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

The price the range the size of battery and features will improve as soon as there will be competition. So just get tha damn thang in mass production. Enought talk

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Pat Says:
October 16th, 2009 at 12:46 am

GM should also look at a smaller car for commuting…majority of folks drive alone or share a ride to the office …smaller volt with 2 seats & small space in the back for groceries etc ..& a range of 100 EV miles will be ideal for commute. Many families own 2 cars in US …small commute car will be ideal but as I read here …folks in US are spoiled ..They want a car which can fit 6 people …drive for 600 miles etc …have enuf head room ..on & on ..Keep dreaming …& How many will be able to afford the $40K cars ? when the jobs are being lost & jobless rate is 12% …

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