Lutz: Almost No Reasonable Doubt Chevy Volt Will Work as Planned
Reuters just published a report outlining an interview with Bob Lutz today on the Chevy Volt.
GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz continued to exude confidence that the Chevy Volt engineering should work out as planned, with a battery supplier to be named shortly.
Lutz said “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
He also confirmed the early Volt prototypes were achieving the electric range GM had hoped for, stating “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything”
Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”
Finally he took a shot at Toyota’s apparent recent turnaround in attitude toward lithium-ion batteries declaring “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk, that lithium ion batteries were prone to explode and that we were putting our customers at risk and that they would stay with the tried and true. When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
Source (Reuters)
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June 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Great to hear…keep up the good work GM!!
June 16th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Still talking about the battery contract too. That’s obviously on their minds.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I wonder if they will average around 45 miles after better calibration of the power system, better aero body and the proper drive train? Sounds like they will if they can exceed 40 right now.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
HAH!
“When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
So true…so true….
Hope we will see better than low 30s, high 40s when it the VOLT is new. It was supposed to be that at end of life.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Hey Bob,
You gave us the Viper GTS….a modern classic.
The Z06 and ZR1 Vette. Be sure to throw your style and attitude in the Volt! We car guys like it!!!
June 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Bob lutz is so funny and correct on toyota!
June 16th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I love it. GM would be nowhere without a guy like Bob. There are few of them left. Nobody goes to the wall like he does. Bob PLEASE stand tall and tell it as you see it. I do not want to hear it from an adman.
Take Care
Arch
June 16th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Hey Kent, I think that the 45 miles you’re thinking are within the realm of reason. After all the test mules are running with a roughed-in calibration and a heavier, less aerodynamic body. I feel that if they can hit the benchmarks with the mule, then it shouldn’t be too much of a problem. And yes, RB, you’re more than likely very much correct. That contract will bug the crap out of them for a while. But if they are serious about a 20 mile version or another small E-Flex hybrids then it might help to keep the other battery contractor on standby.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
It seems like a lot of Prius and Toyota supporters have a grudge against GM and their anger is more to do with their anger at the US automakers than actual Volt capabilities. I’d like to see a successful Volt if only to help decrease the smug levels.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Given that both battery companies have declared their intention to build the batteries in the USA, 29 months is not long to get a plant up and running from scratch.
So when can Lyle have his ride BOB?
June 16th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
By 2010, there will be many players in this game. The ones who can attract the biggest crowd will sell more. Similiar to the iPhone that rocked the cellular industry. It has a cult-like following, people who don’t even like gadgets want one. This kind of marketing needs to happen to the Volt. I don’t see GM spending and ad money yet. Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country. Its a bird…a plane…no it’s the new Volt, coming soon to a town near you, along with other members of the Volt like the SuperVolt, miniVolt, MEGAVolt, MicroVolt. Of course, if the sales pitch fails it could be quite revolting.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Off topic. Honda has begun the first commercial production ever of a hydrogen fuel cell-powered car , will be on lease !
http://news.cnet.com/planetary-gear/?categoryId=2040
June 16th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
That is definelty true, the way it is given to the public and then subsequently percieved is extremely important.
O, and now that we bring it up, the Volt’s offspring of e-rev vehicles will be interesting to see when they start being announced after the Volt is soundly in the game. Imagine, a whole vehicle line-up based on the Volt. Little economy cars and big SUV e-rev vehicles……honestly, who, or what could compete with that.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
I think all these choices are a great idea. I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design. I’ll be in the market for 2 cars around the time this comes out, and I’d love to know a wagon version is in the makes. Just a thought. Maybe they can design the seats and doors with innovation to make it work in a similar way as a sedan. However, it’s great to move stuff and people around in a wagon…..a cool wagon. Just a thought, GM.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Nice shot, Bob - Take that, Toyota !
However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob. You have just insulted the honor of the Toyota Corporation - and you know how the Japanese uphold honor. Now, they will work twice as fast, twice as hard, to make the Prius better than the Volt, just so they don’t “lose face”.
Don’t look behind you, Bob - there might be a Toyota there. Run with this project like the devil himself is behind you. And I’m glad you’re putting the Volt 40 first. You can do it - the only one who can stop you, is you.
#14 tomnatcaleb - Think Volt HHR. In candy apple red - ooooooh, red.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
GM needs to start lining up sexy celebs to be seen
- in a Chevy Volt
- on a Chevy Volt
- near a Chevy Volt
- talking about a Chevy Volt
- dreaming about a Chevy Volt
- sleeping in a Chevy Volt
- buying a Chevy Volt
and yes, DRIVING A CHEVY VOLT !!
Wake up marketeers !
How about 50 special edition Volts that have hundreds of LED lights around their body and are to be driven 24/7 around the top 50 cities in the USA for EXPOSURE ! (aka Consumer Awareness).
June 16th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
GM needs some Apple Engineers on their payroll to help with the “human interface” on the Volt. The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use. Think of an iPhone on Wheels. Yeah, that’s the ticket. The Volt should become a natural extension to the customers body, their Comfort Zone. And Forget About VOICE Controls, that was tried with the K-car and Mercedes. The last thing people need with such a quiet car is synthetic noises.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
The Steering Wheel should look and function more like a ginormous XBox360 or PS3 controller, that would be awesome.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
#18 Steering - What buttons do I use to Jump, Fire, Spin 180 degrees fast, and toggle the third person camera angle ? It would make my commute a lot easier, and more lethal. (grin)
#17 Human Interface - Agreed, voice command technology just isn’t there yet. Too many variables in human voices. The Magallen Miestro GPS was just reviewed by consumer reports, and has problems understanding spoken commands.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Great work GM, you too Lyle!
Hopefully Lyle, you’ll get to ride of the mules and see the the final look by July 4th!
June 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Hmmm…Japanese companies tend to favor domestic (Japanese) suppliers. Toyota probably has no desire to use another battery supplier than Panasonic. However, Toyota could be a great customer for the “so called loser” of the VOLT contract. Especially since their hybrid vehicles outsell all other competitors combined…which could be a smaller risk for the battery pack manufacturer.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
I’m looking at the low 40’s for the Volt and wonder if I can do the same with it as I’ve done with my Avalanche. Yes, my Avalanche with an 8.1L Rat motor. It eats gas stations for breakfast. So what I’ve done is learned that coasting is my friend. I use the brakes as little as possible and increased my mileage by 4 mpg. I’m sure the Volt uses regenerative braking. I wonder if it’s going to be better to drive it and use the brakes or let it coast as much as possible. Which do you think will give the Volt more mileage?
June 16th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
\VOLT SS
Great news Lyle.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
“high 30’s low 40’s”…..
Don’t forget boys thats in a malibu. If what we have been told the aero should easily increase that when they start driving the production volt mules.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
“it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
That makes me giddy. That makes me really, really, excited.
(I run down pedestrians for a living)
Just Kidding.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Human Interface,
An iPhone on wheels? Are you kidding? I was hoping the Volt dashboard would be a giant Microsoft Zune.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
#22 Todd:
If you’ve already got speed up, maintaining speed on a level surface is generally better than slowing down and speeding back up again. What that means is to try to take corners without slowing down!
(Of course there’s some crossover point where you’re going SO fast that the aerodynamic drag is greater than the momentum savings, so it will depend on how fast you are going, how good the aerodynamic drag is, how efficient the regen is and… oh forget it. We’ll find out…
#19 Terry K, #18 Steering:
I also want a fire button. Unless they misunderstand the meaning and when you push the button the car catches on fire. I don’t want that.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Todd, regarding mileage…
I suspect the Volt will get better mileage coasting over using the brakes, just because regenerative braking is not 100% efficient. However, the difference will not be dramatic as it would be in a heavy vehicle with no regenerative breaking.
Otherwise I certainly agree that coasting helps. My v8 Trailblazer has the dash computer option that shows instant fuel mileage based on how much fuel is going through the injectors. At say 50MPH, fuel efficiency can easily vary between 10MPG (accelerating) and 70 MPG (coasting).
June 16th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
#22 Tod
Coasting will still net better mileage
but it will be much less of an advantage percentage-wise because of the regen. If you place any value on time, you will want to brake but not strongly enough engadge the friction pads unless essential.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
“Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”
*** **** ****
It all takes work and development time! That is unless you’re one of those EV Evangelical So.CA. wackos who claim that the Volt should be out this fall no “and” “ifs” or…. Developing vehicles is *NOT* easy and takes time. I’m confident that GM will do their homework on this one! It’s also important to push the envelope, yes Li-ion is expensive and it’s pretty easy to just say “the market isn’t ready”, but this is exactly why we’ve been driving gasoline cars this long. If this doesn’t succeed we’ll be on the verge of the next worse thing to gasoline…..HYDROGEN!
~
June 16th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Today, in __________ Colorado where I live, I was driving to the local Target Supercenter. Going the other way, an Aptera drove by. The change is becoming reality and sooner than I expected.
Let’s go America - rid ourselves of turmoil Oil flowing from the Middle-East.
Proud, Retired US Air Force veteran. Bring our boys and girls home for good.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Is there no end to this madness????!!!!!
I’m really encouraged!
June 16th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
JBF #31,
I agree. A little off topic but I just wonder if the word “Wheelus” rings any bells??
Take care
June 17th, 2008 at 12:15 am
Wanna maximize battery life of VOLT ?.
Just charge the battery sufficient enough for the round trip. If you are travelling only 20miles round trip, just charge only 50%, this will maximize the calender life. Wireless web interface tool to access
VOLTs system would be very helpful in achieving this. Suppose on
a weekend, you want to go to a shopping mall which is 20 miles away(40 mile roundtrip), you could just login to your computer and make VOLT fully charge. Hope GM will provide us an option for partial charge.
Below link contains details on Li ion battery and factors that affect Cycle and Calender life.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39
June 17th, 2008 at 12:15 am
Lutz said, “There’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
“Almost no reasonable doubt” is a giant opening that Statik didn’t pounce on yet. Was it too easy? “Almost no reasonable doubt” means there is reasonable doubt. Discuss…
June 17th, 2008 at 12:34 am
#35
I kind of think that’s what bob lutz has to say because making public statements seems like an extremely annoying thing that the listeners will pick apart and over analyze. Saying anything is 100% is bad PR. I’m PRETTY sure that i’m going to work tomorrow. Could i get a terrible flu or die in my sleep? Yes. Am i implying that i’m really debating going to a baseball game? no. He’s basically saying that unless something unforseen happens like chemistry changes or all of our plants get hit by tornadoes (the plants speed up if they’re hit by lightning) that everything will be fine. I don’t think he’s saying it to imply a critical flaw or a major hurdle.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:29 am
That photo of Lutz climbing out of the test car got me thinking: GM has got to be torn up about design… I mean, do we make it look like a “normal” car with doors that open wide and a keyed ignition and a “normal” dashboard and seats, so we can sell a lot of them to the “average joe” buyer?
OR do we do stuff that from a designers perspective is needed to fix the obvious problems of todays cars but that will look “too futuristic” to the average buyer and risk turning him off? Stuff like scarab doors that hinge upwards so you don’t ding your neighbor, pushbutton starting (like a computer), minimalist dashboard to minimize distractions, and seats that pivot so you face the open door.
All these things have appeared on other concept cars of the past, the research and engineering papers are available (GM wouldn’t be reinventing the wheel here) and I for one think it’s a no-brainer to risk it. This is the one thing above all else GM could do to make the public sit up and take notice after the roll-out. Then just watch the sales numbers take off!!!!
I mean without slapping on a bunch of slick eye candy stuff that really doesn’t serve a purpose (think Chrysler Concorde LXi stuff like a trip computer, refrigerated glovebox, automatic dimming mirrors, sunroofs that move six ways to sunday, video rearview, too-much-power-anything). I don’t mind rolling up my own window while I wear my “electric vehicle grin”.
C’mon GM, the point after all is to get the Volt into the hands of THE PUBLIC.
And soon!
June 17th, 2008 at 1:48 am
In the seventies, I was on a team that created a Voice Recognition and Response (VRR) system for use in the F-15 fighter jet. The Pilot would record a fixed set of words and then upload it to the computer, which stored it in an E-PROM chip. Anyway, it worked pretty good. The pilot could just say the “name” of an airport and using pattern-recognition code, the computer would automatically tune the cockpit radio to the appropriate frequency. The F-15 also had a Voice Warning system. We hired a female and male DJ from the local radio station for that. You can probably guess which voice the pilot’s preferred. Maybe the Volt could have a voice warning/control system like that old one, of course updated using today’s superchips.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:07 am
GM should get with Boeing Engineer and come up with a new “skin” for the Volt. Maybe something like a Honeycomb pattern snap-on panels that are extremely light and shock absorbing and can be molded into aerodynamic shapes, just like on a … plane. See, the Volt needs to battle the forces of the Wind just like a plane. Also, gonna need some serious low rolling-resistance tires, which will require new compounds still being perfected at Goodyear.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:27 am
Its good to see everyone so upbeat.
Ryan P #37, I think your first paragraph is about right. With all this new technology coming on board at once, it might be too much for the general public to handle futuristic designs. They need to be brought around a little more slowly than the average gizmo guru. Remember the fear of computers back in the 80s ?
The Volt needs to be well built with a dependable power source and somewhat familiar controls that drivers can relate to.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:33 am
Anyone else catch that “almost no reasonable doubt” actually means there IS a reasonable doubt…
June 17th, 2008 at 5:39 am
Kube. That’s just Lutz being positive, he really means there’s no reasonable doubt.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:10 am
I’m all for an awesome human interface, and would certainly support Apple doing it. But Microsoft? Gosh, the last thing I want to do is pull over and reboot my car.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:17 am
Wasn’t it the CEO of Intel, Andrew Grove who once said, “You don’t survive in this industry without being paranoid”, or something like that?
I agree with Terry K, #15. Toyota is right behind you, Mr. Lutz. Be paranoid. Always innovate and stay ahead. Never fall behind again.
Because Toyota would like nothing more than turning GM into a Yugo.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:35 am
#14 tomnatcaleb says: “I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design.”
I want one too! Lots of people on this site say they want a small E-FLEX station wagon. Now that gas is $4/gallon, I think GM has seriously underestimated the demand for a small station wagon. I think there are a lot of people hate oil and need a little cargo space.
Back in the 60s and 70s, car makers routinely made station wagon versions of their popular sedans. Same chassis, drive train, and front body design. Only the back was different. Maybe now is the time to get back to this. This would be so easy to do with the Volt.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:41 am
#15 Terry K says: “However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob.”
I think you missed the point. The 2010 date is extremely aggressive. Gearing up for production, crash tests, all this stuff takes time. Remember that we haven’t even seen the body style yet. Meanwhile, the software that controls how the engine comes on can be tweaked and fine-tuned until it is (hopefully) perfect.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:46 am
44 Rashiid……..
I’ve known Andy Grove since before he started Intel (when he headed Fairchild Semiconductor). He’s a brilliant semiconductor physicist who’s also a very smart businessman. AMD has always “nipped at Intel’s heels” so Grove HAD to stay paranoid to stay ahead. (Andy retired a few years ago.)
Your advice to Bob Lutz to “be paranoid” is excellent! Now that GM is 100 years old and is re-inventing itself in terms of drive trains and everything associated with them, it’s appropriate to think like an Intel or a Microsoft “startup” ….believe me, Toyota didn’t grow to become such a dominant company in HALF the time GM’s been around by being anything BUT paranoid! GE is one of the few other huge companies that’s survived as long as it has, and GE’s Jack Welsh did it by constantly re-inventing the company and thinking like an entrepreneur thinks! The only way to survive in business (or in a mission to Mars) is to “run hard, lean, hungry, scared & smart” and always “watch your back”!!!
June 17th, 2008 at 6:49 am
#9 MrBogey, Smug levels haha! doesn’t anyone else watch southpark?
June 17th, 2008 at 6:52 am
#17 Human Interface says: “The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use.”
I disagree. I test drove the Prius, and didn’t much like the the high tech instrumentation, but could live with it. But for my wife, it was a deal breaker. This was one of the main reasons we ended up buying a Honda.
If the Volt is to be a car for the masses, we need normal instrumentation. My suggestion is to integrate all the techie stuff into an optional GPS type console. This way, normal drivers won’t have to be subjected to it.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
Ain’t that the truth!!!
June 17th, 2008 at 6:59 am
#14 tomnatcaleb, 45 Dave G……..
Regarding wanting an E-Flex station wagon, as I just posted on yesterday’s thread, GM has now released the Saturn 2 Mode hybrid VUE (a “tall” station wagon) for production this fall as a 2009 model. It should offer a greater improvement in overall mileage (vs the standard VUE) than a single mode hybrid (like Prius) because the first mode is optimized for city driving & the second mode for highway driving. The VUE has two 74HP electric motors (148HP total) and its gas engine is essentially the same 3.6L V6 used in the CTS Cadillac. So this hybrid should have TONS of hauling/pulling power, but its gas mileage is said to be comparable to that of a 4-cylinder Camry.
This new 2 Mode compact/crossover SUV is also the basis for GM’s other plug-in due out in the fall of 2010 along with the Volt and it is reportedly already in road testing. As a plug-in, GM will greatly increase the VUE’s Li-Ion battery size and optimize its control algorithms for maximum efficiency & EV-only range, city & hwy. They are promising an EV-only (AER) range of >10 miles.*
*How MUCH greater than 10 miles is unknown; however, as some here may know, I’m lobbying GM for a version with 35-40 miles AER comparable to that for the Volt
June 17th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Amazing. You guys STILL don’t realize you’ve been played for suckers in a GM FUD attempt that went wrong.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am
#39 Carbon Fiber Diet:
If you haven’t already, you should see the Nova “Car of the Future” segment on Carbon Fiber. Go to :
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/
Click on “Car of the Future”. The section on Carbon Fiber starts about 2/3 through Chapter 4.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Battery Pack
Give the contract to A123/Cobalt. GM owns the company and can control battery supply and quality.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am
DC Powa comments “Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country”
The Volt has developed so far as an image car, not as a car for sale. It is for TV, not billboards. Maybe that’s because GM really intended the Volt to be only an image car [not to be sold at all], until Lyle came along and forced the issue. Maybe the absence of selling is because GM will build so few in the first year, apparently, whether because of caution, lack of batteries, price or something else. Maybe the absence of selling is because they will all go to a few insider dealers in CA and DC for the first few years. It is a bit paradoxical.
The only part that seems clear is that the Volt will exist as image and specs, and will be on TV a lot as GM’s claim to be green. As a physical object, Volt40 seems to be destined to be a high-priced low-volume speciality car. A price of $50K with a 40% margin allows $30K for production, which may be divided roughly as $10K battery plus $20K car. My speculation is that most of us will see one some time some place but never own one.
If everything comes together this way, it will be a far cry from the concept announcement but a marked success for GM, in that they will have a leading-edge image car that is profitable even though not sold in large numbers. It will be a good beginning for later cars of the EREV type.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Mike D #25
I know you were just kidding, but your comment reminded me of this…
http://www.cnet.com.au/cartech/cars/0,2000438541,339286236,00.htm
Question for everyone discussing “coasting” to get better mileage. Can you really coast in a car with no transmission? I thought this thing was supposed to be direct drive, from the electric motor.
I’m really curious about this, because my commute is 20 miles downhill to work, and then 20 miles uphill back home (from elevation 8500′ down to elevation 6000′ feet). I’m right at the 40 mile cutoff, but I wonder if I can take advantage of the downhill part to coast more.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:14 am
Toyota is probably realizing how this might be GM’s golden ticket to meeting and exceeding CAFE standards. Even with lower performing engines they can still get amazing gas mileage, such as if they install an engine that gets 25mpg, they can still get away with a 120 mile trip that still achieves 38mpg.
So imagine what Toyota is thinking, “what if we put an engine in that gets even BETTER gas mileage”. Then the goal of realizing the new CAFE standards would be a piece of cake.
But GM needs to keep up the momentum on this, let the young optimistic engineers work our brains out!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Agree w/ DaveG #49…
There’s a lot of concerns over pricing the Volt for the masses …
For the first iteration of the Volt, how about we try to save a little bit on fancy touch screens and ‘hi-tech’ instrumentation panels and focus on the real reason we all have interest in this car… using less gas!
I’ll take the basics inside — give me comfortable seats, an analog speedometer, freakin’ steering wheel (I’ll put my own radio in it - Sirius Sat) and call it DONE…..spend more time on the exterior design, make this car distintictive and sleek with a very high ‘cool’ factor…
Fancy interiors can come later……..
June 17th, 2008 at 7:23 am
#41 Kubel you get the ‘realist’ prize….second place goes to no one, lol
Total gloss over on the board about 3 things:
A) The title of the thread is actually a total fabrication. The quote from Bob is, “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
THERE IS NO “AS PLANNED” — this changes the whole meaning, like it or not, the title and content thereafter is manipulated, and it should be changed. Lutz is actually saying that the Volt is not 100 percent certain of it’s future at THIS moment.
Ironically, he choses to say, “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk” I would say that is correct, this is a huge risk, regardless of getting to market. Both in viability to recoup equity and to liability.
B) This post does more about what it implies than actually says…and it says that there will be NO production Chevy Volt anywhere in the near future regardless of what various talking heads say. How can you have one, when you don’t even have a working drivetrain? One and a half years to work on clunky engine noises and bumpy switches?
C) “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything” - wow, up like hills? I thought we only were going to drive on flat surfaces. Why did he have to add this comment, it only causes concern.
I know the drag is greater in a Malibu. But how much greater?…like 4-5 miles of range worth? It sounds like they have just zipped it up the odd hill, doesn’t sound like they have put it through ‘reasonable’ testing to me…and they are only getting high 30s sometimes? What about battery degradation? Isn’t the expected degradation 20% over it’s life? Doesn’t that mean it could feasibly be in the high 20s, low 30s after a few years?
(I’m not saying thats a ‘for sure’ on the battery range problems, but I am saying that brings a new ‘maybe’ into play…when they were saying the testing went ‘great’ and was exceeding expectation. Did we not think that meant the mules where going through ‘real world’ testing and were preforming well over the 40 mile range? I think we did)
June 17th, 2008 at 7:24 am
RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!
well done!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
I don’t watch much television. However, last night as I walked by I heard that ABC News would have a segment on new car technologies, including plug-ins. After seeing the preview, I watched until near the end of the news to see this feature.
They discussed the new FCX with its fuel cells, but never mentioned the Fuel Cell Equinox. They looked at a converted plug-in Prius, but never mentioned the Volt. They did manage to include a Ford Escape hybrid with plug-in capability, and showed a Tesla (which they claimed cost $120k) but that was it for domestic manufacturers.
After these blatant omissions, I have to agree with Bob Lutz. However, I’m not sure whether the mainstream media is ignorant or just plain dishonest and deceptive.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:26 am
#58 Murray
EXACTLY!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Any reason that one might not want to be able to manually delay the ICE startup? Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone. Any thoughts?
June 17th, 2008 at 7:30 am
#51 nasaman,
The Saturn Vue is too big and heavy. We wanted something smaller and lighter, so we bought a 2007 Honda CR-V. The CR-V weighs 436 pounds less than the Vue. The Toyota RAV-4 weighs 525 pounds less than the Vue. This is all straight from the Saturn site under the Vue “Features and Specs Comparison”. When will U.S. car companies get the idea that bigger and heavier is worse?
In any event, the Honda CR-V is still bigger than we wanted. We had a Subaru Outback, but it broke down a lot, and the mileage was not good. What we really want is an efficient, reliable, small station wagon, which doesn’t seem to exist in the U.S.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:32 am
RE: Parker
You could but that would be outside of GM’s safety zone for the battery and might void your warranty.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:33 am
#63 Parker
To extend battery life, my understanding is the Volt is setup to never let the battery get below a 20% charge or above 80% capacity on a full charge.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Is there going to be a manuel override on the ICE to shut it down or turn it on? I thought that ICE control was totally automatic and out of the drivers hands.
Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?
June 17th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Bob should stop worrying about what Toyota has said and what they are doing.
Does it cause any concern to anyone that Toyota’s only concern is that it can’t produce enough batteries in time to pump out more than a few hundred copies in 2010, not anything to do with the actual car?
It already has a “joint-venture” with Matsushita to get a plant up and going, into production in 2009 and full production in 2010.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:42 am
#63 Parker says: “Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone.”
This has been suggested many times before. I don’t think it’s a good idea let users control this. The E-REV (a.k.a. series hybrid) design requires a good amount of charge on the battery to deal with acceleration and uphill driving. This is why they can get away with using an 80hp ICE in a car with a 160hp electric motor.
Also, remember that the ICE only comes on just enough to keep the battery at 30% SOC, so the ICE doesn’t charge the battery.
In addition, one reason 30% SOC was chosen was because regularly discharging more than this can decrease the battery’s lifespan.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:03 am
A quote from the article: Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
I love the idea of silent driving, but there are downsides.
A few weeks ago, I read a CNN.com news piece about a kid on a bike that was hit by a Prius. The boy’s claimed he couldn’t hear the car coming, and that caused the accident. Once ambulance chasing lawyers get hold of this, there’s no telling how far it will go…
It might be wise for GM to put in some sort of artificial noise generation that the driver can control. This way, lawyers will be forced to go after the driver for negligence, and not GM.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Wait wait wait wait…wait.
come on tech guys, what is up with this?
“it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”
If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough? I thought the wheels were connected to the electric motors, connnected to the battery, connected to the ICE. Is he talking the start-up of the ICE to charge the battery? How can that be rough enough to notice? What is going on?
Another note…
The car needs a proximity sound. A car zipping along that makes little or no sound is a safety hazard. “Loud pipes save lives” is no myth, I never complain about the sound of a Harley, at least I know where she is. It needs to have an option to have a “running sound” like running lights…loud enough to warn pedestrians and other animate beings, but still quieter than today’s cars.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:06 am
64 Dave G…..
Remember that the weight of a well-designed hybrid or E-REV becomes significantly less important to the vehicle’s overall economy. The plug-in VUE will use both deceleration charging (foot off the accelerator) and regenerative braking (foot on the brake). In the exact same chassis as the VUE, GM claims the plug-in Cadillac Provoq concept gets an AER of 20 miles with a 9kWh Li-Ion battery (with no help from the fuel cell).
So if the Plug-in Provoq (or VUE) had an 18kWh battery, it would get 40 miles AER. My point is that @10cents/KWH it costs 80 cents to fully charge the 8kWh in a Volt battery & 90 cents to fully charge the 9kWh in a hypothetical Provoq or VUE, regardless of vehicle weight. I’d gladly spend the extra 10 cents for the additional power, towing ability and interior space of the plug-in CUV!
June 17th, 2008 at 8:10 am
#60 Murray — me, like Statik? Wow, a great compliment. Scary, too
June 17th, 2008 at 8:19 am
to #15 Terry K
You sound like Toyota is some kind of God. Hey, I’m old enough to know when we, in the USA, set our mind to do something, we can be the best. The Japanese have awoken a sleeping giant and fear not, the so call great Toyota will not beat us like you think they might. The only thing Toyota has contributed to the auto industry is quality and the Prius. Check and see what GM has contributed and you’ll be shock. The news media one day, I hope, will start reporting the facts straight. Toyota talks from both side of their mouth and you can not trust them. GM better have their technology patented because Toyota will steal their ideas and then the news media will say ” oh, those Toyota people are so so smart” Here’s a link at how Japan got where there at today. I dare you to read it.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
June 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am
#60 Murray
“RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!”
Yes, I too thought it was smart, insightful and concise (SIC). It should a bold new, almost futuristic glimpse into the superior mind of tomorrow. A bold and innovative way to…
June 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am
#71 Eco quotes Maximum Bob “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”
and then Eco asks a very good question “If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough?”
Maybe what we have is this: When the ICE comes on, it spins the generator, which then sends electricity directly to the motor (in addition to charging the battery). At startup the ICE-generator combo is producing voltage/current that is not exactly equal to that from the battery, and maybe fluctuating for a few seconds. So this uneveness in generator startup is at present not buffered well enough, and the result is a rough transition. Well, maybe — we don’t know what controls or switches or buffers they have in there now, so it is all conjecture.
Still, something like this probably is what’s happening. Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:27 am
#67 Brad G says: “Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?”
Many posts on this site have speculated about a turbine, HCCI, or diesel variation, but GM has stated repeatedly that the first Volt will use a 1.0L 3-piston turbocharged engine which runs on gasoline and/or E85. The main unanswered questions about the engine are:
1) Will it be constant or variable RPMs?
2) Will it use an Otto, Atkinson, or Miller cycle design?
A gm-volt.com interview with GM last summer indicated that the engine would be variable RPM, but that was later brought into question.
Most gas engines use the Otto cycle for maximum torque. Traditional hybrids like the Prius don’t require as much torque, since they use the electric motor to augment acceleration, so the Atkinson cycle engine is typical in most hybrids to increase efficiency. Newer turbocharged hybrids are using Miller cycle engine designs for maximum efficiency. Since the Volt’s engine is not connected to the wheels at all, torque is not a major concern. Given that the Volt’s engine is turbocharged, I would suspect it is a Miller cycle engine, but that has yet to be confirmed.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:28 am
#74 Joe
I think we should just dust off old ‘Enola Gay’ then…and remind them what a little plutonium-239 can do for them.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:36 am
I think most manufacturers have come to the conclusion that electric is the future. GM’s Volt is a step of faith and a necessary one if we are going to have an auto industry in America. I’m in a Toyota now, but I know my future and my grandchildren’s future rest with the sucess of GM and a few other industrial leaders willing to take some long-term risks. Go GM!!!
June 17th, 2008 at 8:43 am
#76 RB says: “Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary”
Actually, when the ICE is running, the battery is discharged somewhat during acceleration and uphill driving, and then recharged back to 30% when you let off on the accelerator. This is called “charge sustaining mode”.
The ICE & generator supply much less power than the battery. The batteries and electric motor produce around 120KW of power, which translates to around 160hp. The ICE & generator produce around 1/2 that, 53KW if I remember correctly.
In charge sustaining mode, the ICE & generator provide AVERAGE horsepower, while the batteries and electric motor provide PEAK horsepower for acceleration or driving uphill. Even if you’re driving up a steep mountain, the 30% SOC in the battery is enough to get you there, so average horsepower is less than 1/2 of peak horsepower in any real world scenario.
Now if you cut the battery size in half for a 20-mile version, all this could change.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:44 am
76 RB……
Based on my background in large batteries used on spacecraft, I’d guess what GM is experiencing is due to the somewhat higher voltage initially needed from the generator to cause the Volt battery to begin acquiring charge. Think of it this way….. when a lead-acid battery is fully charged its nominal (open-circuit) voltage is close to 12.7volts. But when the alternator first begins charging, the battery voltage momentarily jumps to a little over 14 volts, or about 10% higher. Even with the Volt’s motor/controller hard-wired to the battery, when the ICE/generator first comes on the initial “voltage spike” across the battery probably causes a momentary surge in motor current ….this is what I think Bob Lutz may be describing.
I think they can suppress that initial motor surge and muffle the ICE starting noise without too much difficulty.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:46 am
#78 statik:
This type of humor is a bit harsh - even for you.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Dave G, #70. I don’t want noise. There is too much noise already.
I want peace and quiet.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Joe # 74
Good article !
I think I am the grandpa of this site. I remember and was part of our commitment 1940- 1945 to build and beat this country. I have not forgot what happened to soldiers captured in the Philippines and the Pacific area. It will take another dedicated America to pull us out the fire again. This wonderful country we call America has to understand that good things do not come easy and we may have to make sacrifices to make us great again.
I have no doubt that GM has the technologies to produce an auto of this magnitude, get it to the public.
My main concern is they don’t take my drivers license away before the VOLT comes out. I’m on the list and hope I will have the opportunity to purchase a VOLT.
Tom
June 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Statik why do you even bother coming to this site? Never mind I know the answer to that question. If you are married I feel sorry for your spouse and kids. Must be horrible for them.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am
#80 Dave G — I agree with you on all points. The question is what happens in the first 30 seconds after the ICE comes on. On level ground, it seems like all voltage/current to the motor will be coming from the ICE, because the ICE/generator will be producing enough output, on the average, to supply the motor and charge the battery. However, the ICE/generator battery may not be entirely stable in the first seconds the ICE starts, and in any event will not exactly equal the battery voltage/current before the transition (probably close but not exactly the same).
All this is simply speculation, of course, but the battery to ICE switchover is bound to have some bumps at first. Now that the GM engineers have some recorded data to use I&#