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Lutz: Almost No Reasonable Doubt Chevy Volt Will Work as Planned

June 16th, 2008 | Posted in: General

Reuters just published a report outlining an interview with Bob Lutz today on the Chevy Volt.

GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz continued to exude confidence that the Chevy Volt engineering should work out as planned, with a battery supplier to be named shortly.

Lutz said “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”

He also confirmed the early Volt prototypes were achieving the electric range GM had hoped for, stating “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything”

Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”

Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”

Finally he took a shot at Toyota’s apparent recent turnaround in attitude toward lithium-ion batteries declaring “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk, that lithium ion batteries were prone to explode and that we were putting our customers at risk and that they would stay with the tried and true. When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”

Source (Reuters)

Posted by: Lyle

207 Responses to “Lutz: Almost No Reasonable Doubt Chevy Volt Will Work as Planned”

Osprey Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

Great to hear…keep up the good work GM!!

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RB Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

Still talking about the battery contract too. That’s obviously on their minds.

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kent beuchert Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:06 pm

I wonder if they will average around 45 miles after better calibration of the power system, better aero body and the proper drive train? Sounds like they will if they can exceed 40 right now.

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ksuhwail Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

HAH!

“When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”

So true…so true….

Hope we will see better than low 30s, high 40s when it the VOLT is new. It was supposed to be that at end of life.

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Vincent Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

Hey Bob,
You gave us the Viper GTS….a modern classic.
The Z06 and ZR1 Vette. Be sure to throw your style and attitude in the Volt! We car guys like it!!!

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Talks Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

Bob lutz is so funny and correct on toyota!

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Arch Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

I love it. GM would be nowhere without a guy like Bob. There are few of them left. Nobody goes to the wall like he does. Bob PLEASE stand tall and tell it as you see it. I do not want to hear it from an adman.

Take Care
Arch

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Firefly Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

Hey Kent, I think that the 45 miles you’re thinking are within the realm of reason. After all the test mules are running with a roughed-in calibration and a heavier, less aerodynamic body. I feel that if they can hit the benchmarks with the mule, then it shouldn’t be too much of a problem. And yes, RB, you’re more than likely very much correct. That contract will bug the crap out of them for a while. But if they are serious about a 20 mile version or another small E-Flex hybrids then it might help to keep the other battery contractor on standby.

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MrBogey Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:41 pm

It seems like a lot of Prius and Toyota supporters have a grudge against GM and their anger is more to do with their anger at the US automakers than actual Volt capabilities. I’d like to see a successful Volt if only to help decrease the smug levels.

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NZDavid Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 8:49 pm

Given that both battery companies have declared their intention to build the batteries in the USA, 29 months is not long to get a plant up and running from scratch.

So when can Lyle have his ride BOB?

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DC Powa Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

By 2010, there will be many players in this game. The ones who can attract the biggest crowd will sell more. Similiar to the iPhone that rocked the cellular industry. It has a cult-like following, people who don’t even like gadgets want one. This kind of marketing needs to happen to the Volt. I don’t see GM spending and ad money yet. Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country. Its a bird…a plane…no it’s the new Volt, coming soon to a town near you, along with other members of the Volt like the SuperVolt, miniVolt, MEGAVolt, MicroVolt. Of course, if the sales pitch fails it could be quite revolting.

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Vinayababu Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Off topic. Honda has begun the first commercial production ever of a hydrogen fuel cell-powered car , will be on lease !

http://news.cnet.com/planetary-gear/?categoryId=2040

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Bryce Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

That is definelty true, the way it is given to the public and then subsequently percieved is extremely important.

O, and now that we bring it up, the Volt’s offspring of e-rev vehicles will be interesting to see when they start being announced after the Volt is soundly in the game. Imagine, a whole vehicle line-up based on the Volt. Little economy cars and big SUV e-rev vehicles……honestly, who, or what could compete with that.

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tomnatcaleb Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

I think all these choices are a great idea. I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design. I’ll be in the market for 2 cars around the time this comes out, and I’d love to know a wagon version is in the makes. Just a thought. Maybe they can design the seats and doors with innovation to make it work in a similar way as a sedan. However, it’s great to move stuff and people around in a wagon…..a cool wagon. Just a thought, GM.

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Terry K Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

Nice shot, Bob – Take that, Toyota !

However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob. You have just insulted the honor of the Toyota Corporation – and you know how the Japanese uphold honor. Now, they will work twice as fast, twice as hard, to make the Prius better than the Volt, just so they don’t “lose face”.

Don’t look behind you, Bob – there might be a Toyota there. Run with this project like the devil himself is behind you. And I’m glad you’re putting the Volt 40 first. You can do it – the only one who can stop you, is you.

#14 tomnatcaleb – Think Volt HHR. In candy apple red – ooooooh, red.

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Sexy Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

GM needs to start lining up sexy celebs to be seen
- in a Chevy Volt
- on a Chevy Volt
- near a Chevy Volt
- talking about a Chevy Volt
- dreaming about a Chevy Volt
- sleeping in a Chevy Volt
- buying a Chevy Volt
and yes, DRIVING A CHEVY VOLT !!

Wake up marketeers !

How about 50 special edition Volts that have hundreds of LED lights around their body and are to be driven 24/7 around the top 50 cities in the USA for EXPOSURE ! (aka Consumer Awareness).

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Human Interface Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:33 pm

GM needs some Apple Engineers on their payroll to help with the “human interface” on the Volt. The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use. Think of an iPhone on Wheels. Yeah, that’s the ticket. The Volt should become a natural extension to the customers body, their Comfort Zone. And Forget About VOICE Controls, that was tried with the K-car and Mercedes. The last thing people need with such a quiet car is synthetic noises.

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Steering Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:37 pm

The Steering Wheel should look and function more like a ginormous XBox360 or PS3 controller, that would be awesome.

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Terry K Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

#18 Steering – What buttons do I use to Jump, Fire, Spin 180 degrees fast, and toggle the third person camera angle ? It would make my commute a lot easier, and more lethal. (grin)

#17 Human Interface – Agreed, voice command technology just isn’t there yet. Too many variables in human voices. The Magallen Miestro GPS was just reviewed by consumer reports, and has problems understanding spoken commands.

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Anthony BC Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

Great work GM, you too Lyle!

Hopefully Lyle, you’ll get to ride of the mules and see the the final look by July 4th!

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Jeff Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

Hmmm…Japanese companies tend to favor domestic (Japanese) suppliers. Toyota probably has no desire to use another battery supplier than Panasonic. However, Toyota could be a great customer for the “so called loser” of the VOLT contract. Especially since their hybrid vehicles outsell all other competitors combined…which could be a smaller risk for the battery pack manufacturer.

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Todd Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

I’m looking at the low 40’s for the Volt and wonder if I can do the same with it as I’ve done with my Avalanche. Yes, my Avalanche with an 8.1L Rat motor. It eats gas stations for breakfast. So what I’ve done is learned that coasting is my friend. I use the brakes as little as possible and increased my mileage by 4 mpg. I’m sure the Volt uses regenerative braking. I wonder if it’s going to be better to drive it and use the brakes or let it coast as much as possible. Which do you think will give the Volt more mileage?

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David Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:21 pm

\VOLT SS

Great news Lyle.

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JonP Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:48 pm

“high 30’s low 40’s”…..

Don’t forget boys thats in a malibu. If what we have been told the aero should easily increase that when they start driving the production volt mules.

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Mike D Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

“it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”

That makes me giddy. That makes me really, really, excited.

(I run down pedestrians for a living)

Just Kidding.

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Paul-R Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Human Interface,

An iPhone on wheels? Are you kidding? I was hoping the Volt dashboard would be a giant Microsoft Zune.

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DaveP Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

#22 Todd:
If you’ve already got speed up, maintaining speed on a level surface is generally better than slowing down and speeding back up again. What that means is to try to take corners without slowing down!
(Of course there’s some crossover point where you’re going SO fast that the aerodynamic drag is greater than the momentum savings, so it will depend on how fast you are going, how good the aerodynamic drag is, how efficient the regen is and… oh forget it. We’ll find out…

#19 Terry K, #18 Steering:
I also want a fire button. Unless they misunderstand the meaning and when you push the button the car catches on fire. I don’t want that.

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Paul-R Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

Todd, regarding mileage…

I suspect the Volt will get better mileage coasting over using the brakes, just because regenerative braking is not 100% efficient. However, the difference will not be dramatic as it would be in a heavy vehicle with no regenerative breaking.

Otherwise I certainly agree that coasting helps. My v8 Trailblazer has the dash computer option that shows instant fuel mileage based on how much fuel is going through the injectors. At say 50MPH, fuel efficiency can easily vary between 10MPG (accelerating) and 70 MPG (coasting).

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koz Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

#22 Tod

Coasting will still net better mileage
but it will be much less of an advantage percentage-wise because of the regen. If you place any value on time, you will want to brake but not strongly enough engadge the friction pads unless essential.

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Grizzly Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

“Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”

*** **** ****

It all takes work and development time! That is unless you’re one of those EV Evangelical So.CA. wackos who claim that the Volt should be out this fall no “and” “ifs” or…. Developing vehicles is *NOT* easy and takes time. I’m confident that GM will do their homework on this one! It’s also important to push the envelope, yes Li-ion is expensive and it’s pretty easy to just say “the market isn’t ready”, but this is exactly why we’ve been driving gasoline cars this long. If this doesn’t succeed we’ll be on the verge of the next worse thing to gasoline…..HYDROGEN!

~

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JBFALASKA Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

Today, in __________ Colorado where I live, I was driving to the local Target Supercenter. Going the other way, an Aptera drove by. The change is becoming reality and sooner than I expected.

Let’s go America – rid ourselves of turmoil Oil flowing from the Middle-East.

Proud, Retired US Air Force veteran. Bring our boys and girls home for good.

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Terry Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

Is there no end to this madness????!!!!!

I’m really encouraged!

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Grizzly Says:
June 16th, 2008 at 11:56 pm

JBF #31,

I agree. A little off topic but I just wonder if the word “Wheelus” rings any bells??

Take care

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Talks Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:15 am

Wanna maximize battery life of VOLT ?.
Just charge the battery sufficient enough for the round trip. If you are travelling only 20miles round trip, just charge only 50%, this will maximize the calender life. Wireless web interface tool to access
VOLTs system would be very helpful in achieving this. Suppose on
a weekend, you want to go to a shopping mall which is 20 miles away(40 mile roundtrip), you could just login to your computer and make VOLT fully charge. Hope GM will provide us an option for partial charge.

Below link contains details on Li ion battery and factors that affect Cycle and Calender life.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39

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ThombDbhomb Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:15 am

Lutz said, “There’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”

“Almost no reasonable doubt” is a giant opening that Statik didn’t pounce on yet. Was it too easy? “Almost no reasonable doubt” means there is reasonable doubt. Discuss…

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Mike D Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:34 am

#35

I kind of think that’s what bob lutz has to say because making public statements seems like an extremely annoying thing that the listeners will pick apart and over analyze. Saying anything is 100% is bad PR. I’m PRETTY sure that i’m going to work tomorrow. Could i get a terrible flu or die in my sleep? Yes. Am i implying that i’m really debating going to a baseball game? no. He’s basically saying that unless something unforseen happens like chemistry changes or all of our plants get hit by tornadoes (the plants speed up if they’re hit by lightning) that everything will be fine. I don’t think he’s saying it to imply a critical flaw or a major hurdle.

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RyanP Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:29 am

That photo of Lutz climbing out of the test car got me thinking: GM has got to be torn up about design… I mean, do we make it look like a “normal” car with doors that open wide and a keyed ignition and a “normal” dashboard and seats, so we can sell a lot of them to the “average joe” buyer?
OR do we do stuff that from a designers perspective is needed to fix the obvious problems of todays cars but that will look “too futuristic” to the average buyer and risk turning him off? Stuff like scarab doors that hinge upwards so you don’t ding your neighbor, pushbutton starting (like a computer), minimalist dashboard to minimize distractions, and seats that pivot so you face the open door.
All these things have appeared on other concept cars of the past, the research and engineering papers are available (GM wouldn’t be reinventing the wheel here) and I for one think it’s a no-brainer to risk it. This is the one thing above all else GM could do to make the public sit up and take notice after the roll-out. Then just watch the sales numbers take off!!!!
I mean without slapping on a bunch of slick eye candy stuff that really doesn’t serve a purpose (think Chrysler Concorde LXi stuff like a trip computer, refrigerated glovebox, automatic dimming mirrors, sunroofs that move six ways to sunday, video rearview, too-much-power-anything). I don’t mind rolling up my own window while I wear my “electric vehicle grin”.
C’mon GM, the point after all is to get the Volt into the hands of THE PUBLIC.
And soon!

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Avionics4Volt Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:48 am

In the seventies, I was on a team that created a Voice Recognition and Response (VRR) system for use in the F-15 fighter jet. The Pilot would record a fixed set of words and then upload it to the computer, which stored it in an E-PROM chip. Anyway, it worked pretty good. The pilot could just say the “name” of an airport and using pattern-recognition code, the computer would automatically tune the cockpit radio to the appropriate frequency. The F-15 also had a Voice Warning system. We hired a female and male DJ from the local radio station for that. You can probably guess which voice the pilot’s preferred. Maybe the Volt could have a voice warning/control system like that old one, of course updated using today’s superchips.

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Carbon Fiber Diet Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:07 am

GM should get with Boeing Engineer and come up with a new “skin” for the Volt. Maybe something like a Honeycomb pattern snap-on panels that are extremely light and shock absorbing and can be molded into aerodynamic shapes, just like on a … plane. See, the Volt needs to battle the forces of the Wind just like a plane. Also, gonna need some serious low rolling-resistance tires, which will require new compounds still being perfected at Goodyear.

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Ed M Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:27 am

Its good to see everyone so upbeat.

Ryan P #37, I think your first paragraph is about right. With all this new technology coming on board at once, it might be too much for the general public to handle futuristic designs. They need to be brought around a little more slowly than the average gizmo guru. Remember the fear of computers back in the 80s ?
The Volt needs to be well built with a dependable power source and somewhat familiar controls that drivers can relate to.

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kubel Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:33 am

Anyone else catch that “almost no reasonable doubt” actually means there IS a reasonable doubt…

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NZDavid Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:39 am

Kube. That’s just Lutz being positive, he really means there’s no reasonable doubt.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:10 am

I’m all for an awesome human interface, and would certainly support Apple doing it. But Microsoft? Gosh, the last thing I want to do is pull over and reboot my car.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:17 am

Wasn’t it the CEO of Intel, Andrew Grove who once said, “You don’t survive in this industry without being paranoid”, or something like that?

I agree with Terry K, #15. Toyota is right behind you, Mr. Lutz. Be paranoid. Always innovate and stay ahead. Never fall behind again.
Because Toyota would like nothing more than turning GM into a Yugo.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:35 am

#14 tomnatcaleb says: “I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design.”

I want one too! Lots of people on this site say they want a small E-FLEX station wagon. Now that gas is $4/gallon, I think GM has seriously underestimated the demand for a small station wagon. I think there are a lot of people hate oil and need a little cargo space.

Back in the 60s and 70s, car makers routinely made station wagon versions of their popular sedans. Same chassis, drive train, and front body design. Only the back was different. Maybe now is the time to get back to this. This would be so easy to do with the Volt.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:41 am

#15 Terry K says: “However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob.”

I think you missed the point. The 2010 date is extremely aggressive. Gearing up for production, crash tests, all this stuff takes time. Remember that we haven’t even seen the body style yet. Meanwhile, the software that controls how the engine comes on can be tweaked and fine-tuned until it is (hopefully) perfect.

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nasaman Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:46 am

44 Rashiid……..
I’ve known Andy Grove since before he started Intel (when he headed Fairchild Semiconductor). He’s a brilliant semiconductor physicist who’s also a very smart businessman. AMD has always “nipped at Intel’s heels” so Grove HAD to stay paranoid to stay ahead. (Andy retired a few years ago.)

Your advice to Bob Lutz to “be paranoid” is excellent! Now that GM is 100 years old and is re-inventing itself in terms of drive trains and everything associated with them, it’s appropriate to think like an Intel or a Microsoft “startup” ….believe me, Toyota didn’t grow to become such a dominant company in HALF the time GM’s been around by being anything BUT paranoid! GE is one of the few other huge companies that’s survived as long as it has, and GE’s Jack Welsh did it by constantly re-inventing the company and thinking like an entrepreneur thinks! The only way to survive in business (or in a mission to Mars) is to “run hard, lean, hungry, scared & smart” and always “watch your back”!!!

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Gsned57 Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:49 am

#9 MrBogey, Smug levels haha! doesn’t anyone else watch southpark?

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:52 am

#17 Human Interface says: “The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use.”

I disagree. I test drove the Prius, and didn’t much like the the high tech instrumentation, but could live with it. But for my wife, it was a deal breaker. This was one of the main reasons we ended up buying a Honda.

If the Volt is to be a car for the masses, we need normal instrumentation. My suggestion is to integrate all the techie stuff into an optional GPS type console. This way, normal drivers won’t have to be subjected to it.

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Schmeltz Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:52 am

Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”

Ain’t that the truth!!!

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nasaman Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:59 am

#14 tomnatcaleb, 45 Dave G……..
Regarding wanting an E-Flex station wagon, as I just posted on yesterday’s thread, GM has now released the Saturn 2 Mode hybrid VUE (a “tall” station wagon) for production this fall as a 2009 model. It should offer a greater improvement in overall mileage (vs the standard VUE) than a single mode hybrid (like Prius) because the first mode is optimized for city driving & the second mode for highway driving. The VUE has two 74HP electric motors (148HP total) and its gas engine is essentially the same 3.6L V6 used in the CTS Cadillac. So this hybrid should have TONS of hauling/pulling power, but its gas mileage is said to be comparable to that of a 4-cylinder Camry.

This new 2 Mode compact/crossover SUV is also the basis for GM’s other plug-in due out in the fall of 2010 along with the Volt and it is reportedly already in road testing. As a plug-in, GM will greatly increase the VUE’s Li-Ion battery size and optimize its control algorithms for maximum efficiency & EV-only range, city & hwy. They are promising an EV-only (AER) range of >10 miles.*

*How MUCH greater than 10 miles is unknown; however, as some here may know, I’m lobbying GM for a version with 35-40 miles AER comparable to that for the Volt

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M1EK Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:06 am

Amazing. You guys STILL don’t realize you’ve been played for suckers in a GM FUD attempt that went wrong.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am

#39 Carbon Fiber Diet:

If you haven’t already, you should see the Nova “Car of the Future” segment on Carbon Fiber. Go to :

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/

Click on “Car of the Future”. The section on Carbon Fiber starts about 2/3 through Chapter 4.

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Brad G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am

Battery Pack

Give the contract to A123/Cobalt. GM owns the company and can control battery supply and quality.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am

DC Powa comments “Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country”

The Volt has developed so far as an image car, not as a car for sale. It is for TV, not billboards. Maybe that’s because GM really intended the Volt to be only an image car [not to be sold at all], until Lyle came along and forced the issue. Maybe the absence of selling is because GM will build so few in the first year, apparently, whether because of caution, lack of batteries, price or something else. Maybe the absence of selling is because they will all go to a few insider dealers in CA and DC for the first few years. It is a bit paradoxical.

The only part that seems clear is that the Volt will exist as image and specs, and will be on TV a lot as GM’s claim to be green. As a physical object, Volt40 seems to be destined to be a high-priced low-volume speciality car. A price of $50K with a 40% margin allows $30K for production, which may be divided roughly as $10K battery plus $20K car. My speculation is that most of us will see one some time some place but never own one.

If everything comes together this way, it will be a far cry from the concept announcement but a marked success for GM, in that they will have a leading-edge image car that is profitable even though not sold in large numbers. It will be a good beginning for later cars of the EREV type.

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wsallender Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:12 am

Mike D #25
I know you were just kidding, but your comment reminded me of this…
http://www.cnet.com.au/cartech/cars/0,2000438541,339286236,00.htm

Question for everyone discussing “coasting” to get better mileage. Can you really coast in a car with no transmission? I thought this thing was supposed to be direct drive, from the electric motor.

I’m really curious about this, because my commute is 20 miles downhill to work, and then 20 miles uphill back home (from elevation 8500′ down to elevation 6000′ feet). I’m right at the 40 mile cutoff, but I wonder if I can take advantage of the downhill part to coast more.

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Engineer Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:14 am

Toyota is probably realizing how this might be GM’s golden ticket to meeting and exceeding CAFE standards. Even with lower performing engines they can still get amazing gas mileage, such as if they install an engine that gets 25mpg, they can still get away with a 120 mile trip that still achieves 38mpg.

So imagine what Toyota is thinking, “what if we put an engine in that gets even BETTER gas mileage”. Then the goal of realizing the new CAFE standards would be a piece of cake.

But GM needs to keep up the momentum on this, let the young optimistic engineers work our brains out!

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Murray Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:17 am

Agree w/ DaveG #49…

There’s a lot of concerns over pricing the Volt for the masses …
For the first iteration of the Volt, how about we try to save a little bit on fancy touch screens and ‘hi-tech’ instrumentation panels and focus on the real reason we all have interest in this car… using less gas!
I’ll take the basics inside — give me comfortable seats, an analog speedometer, freakin’ steering wheel (I’ll put my own radio in it – Sirius Sat) and call it DONE…..spend more time on the exterior design, make this car distintictive and sleek with a very high ‘cool’ factor…

Fancy interiors can come later……..

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:23 am

#41 Kubel you get the ‘realist’ prize….second place goes to no one, lol

Total gloss over on the board about 3 things:

A) The title of the thread is actually a total fabrication. The quote from Bob is, “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”

THERE IS NO “AS PLANNED” — this changes the whole meaning, like it or not, the title and content thereafter is manipulated, and it should be changed. Lutz is actually saying that the Volt is not 100 percent certain of it’s future at THIS moment.

Ironically, he choses to say, “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk” I would say that is correct, this is a huge risk, regardless of getting to market. Both in viability to recoup equity and to liability.

B) This post does more about what it implies than actually says…and it says that there will be NO production Chevy Volt anywhere in the near future regardless of what various talking heads say. How can you have one, when you don’t even have a working drivetrain? One and a half years to work on clunky engine noises and bumpy switches?

C) “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything” – wow, up like hills? I thought we only were going to drive on flat surfaces. Why did he have to add this comment, it only causes concern.

I know the drag is greater in a Malibu. But how much greater?…like 4-5 miles of range worth? It sounds like they have just zipped it up the odd hill, doesn’t sound like they have put it through ‘reasonable’ testing to me…and they are only getting high 30s sometimes? What about battery degradation? Isn’t the expected degradation 20% over it’s life? Doesn’t that mean it could feasibly be in the high 20s, low 30s after a few years?

(I’m not saying thats a ‘for sure’ on the battery range problems, but I am saying that brings a new ‘maybe’ into play…when they were saying the testing went ‘great’ and was exceeding expectation. Did we not think that meant the mules where going through ‘real world’ testing and were preforming well over the 40 mile range? I think we did)

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Murray Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:24 am

RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!

well done!

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BillR Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:24 am

Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”

I don’t watch much television. However, last night as I walked by I heard that ABC News would have a segment on new car technologies, including plug-ins. After seeing the preview, I watched until near the end of the news to see this feature.

They discussed the new FCX with its fuel cells, but never mentioned the Fuel Cell Equinox. They looked at a converted plug-in Prius, but never mentioned the Volt. They did manage to include a Ford Escape hybrid with plug-in capability, and showed a Tesla (which they claimed cost $120k) but that was it for domestic manufacturers.

After these blatant omissions, I have to agree with Bob Lutz. However, I’m not sure whether the mainstream media is ignorant or just plain dishonest and deceptive.

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Brad G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:26 am

#58 Murray

EXACTLY!

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Parker Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:28 am

Any reason that one might not want to be able to manually delay the ICE startup? Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone. Any thoughts?

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:30 am

#51 nasaman,

The Saturn Vue is too big and heavy. We wanted something smaller and lighter, so we bought a 2007 Honda CR-V. The CR-V weighs 436 pounds less than the Vue. The Toyota RAV-4 weighs 525 pounds less than the Vue. This is all straight from the Saturn site under the Vue “Features and Specs Comparison”. When will U.S. car companies get the idea that bigger and heavier is worse?

In any event, the Honda CR-V is still bigger than we wanted. We had a Subaru Outback, but it broke down a lot, and the mileage was not good. What we really want is an efficient, reliable, small station wagon, which doesn’t seem to exist in the U.S.

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Engineer Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:32 am

RE: Parker

You could but that would be outside of GM’s safety zone for the battery and might void your warranty.

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Brad G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:33 am

#63 Parker

To extend battery life, my understanding is the Volt is setup to never let the battery get below a 20% charge or above 80% capacity on a full charge.

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Brad G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:38 am

Is there going to be a manuel override on the ICE to shut it down or turn it on? I thought that ICE control was totally automatic and out of the drivers hands.

Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:41 am

Bob should stop worrying about what Toyota has said and what they are doing.

Does it cause any concern to anyone that Toyota’s only concern is that it can’t produce enough batteries in time to pump out more than a few hundred copies in 2010, not anything to do with the actual car?

It already has a “joint-venture” with Matsushita to get a plant up and going, into production in 2009 and full production in 2010.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:42 am

#63 Parker says: “Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone.”

This has been suggested many times before. I don’t think it’s a good idea let users control this. The E-REV (a.k.a. series hybrid) design requires a good amount of charge on the battery to deal with acceleration and uphill driving. This is why they can get away with using an 80hp ICE in a car with a 160hp electric motor.

Also, remember that the ICE only comes on just enough to keep the battery at 30% SOC, so the ICE doesn’t charge the battery.

In addition, one reason 30% SOC was chosen was because regularly discharging more than this can decrease the battery’s lifespan.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:03 am

A quote from the article: Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”

I love the idea of silent driving, but there are downsides.

A few weeks ago, I read a CNN.com news piece about a kid on a bike that was hit by a Prius. The boy’s claimed he couldn’t hear the car coming, and that caused the accident. Once ambulance chasing lawyers get hold of this, there’s no telling how far it will go…

It might be wise for GM to put in some sort of artificial noise generation that the driver can control. This way, lawyers will be forced to go after the driver for negligence, and not GM.

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Eco Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:04 am

Wait wait wait wait…wait.

come on tech guys, what is up with this?

“it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”

If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough? I thought the wheels were connected to the electric motors, connnected to the battery, connected to the ICE. Is he talking the start-up of the ICE to charge the battery? How can that be rough enough to notice? What is going on?

Another note…

The car needs a proximity sound. A car zipping along that makes little or no sound is a safety hazard. “Loud pipes save lives” is no myth, I never complain about the sound of a Harley, at least I know where she is. It needs to have an option to have a “running sound” like running lights…loud enough to warn pedestrians and other animate beings, but still quieter than today’s cars.

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nasaman Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:06 am

64 Dave G…..
Remember that the weight of a well-designed hybrid or E-REV becomes significantly less important to the vehicle’s overall economy. The plug-in VUE will use both deceleration charging (foot off the accelerator) and regenerative braking (foot on the brake). In the exact same chassis as the VUE, GM claims the plug-in Cadillac Provoq concept gets an AER of 20 miles with a 9kWh Li-Ion battery (with no help from the fuel cell).

So if the Plug-in Provoq (or VUE) had an 18kWh battery, it would get 40 miles AER. My point is that @10cents/KWH it costs 80 cents to fully charge the 8kWh in a Volt battery & 90 cents to fully charge the 9kWh in a hypothetical Provoq or VUE, regardless of vehicle weight. I’d gladly spend the extra 10 cents for the additional power, towing ability and interior space of the plug-in CUV!

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:10 am

#60 Murray — me, like Statik? Wow, a great compliment. Scary, too

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Joe Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:19 am

to #15 Terry K

You sound like Toyota is some kind of God. Hey, I’m old enough to know when we, in the USA, set our mind to do something, we can be the best. The Japanese have awoken a sleeping giant and fear not, the so call great Toyota will not beat us like you think they might. The only thing Toyota has contributed to the auto industry is quality and the Prius. Check and see what GM has contributed and you’ll be shock. The news media one day, I hope, will start reporting the facts straight. Toyota talks from both side of their mouth and you can not trust them. GM better have their technology patented because Toyota will steal their ideas and then the news media will say ” oh, those Toyota people are so so smart” Here’s a link at how Japan got where there at today. I dare you to read it.

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

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statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am

#60 Murray

“RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!”

Yes, I too thought it was smart, insightful and concise (SIC). It should a bold new, almost futuristic glimpse into the superior mind of tomorrow. A bold and innovative way to…

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am

#71 Eco quotes Maximum Bob “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”

and then Eco asks a very good question “If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough?”

Maybe what we have is this: When the ICE comes on, it spins the generator, which then sends electricity directly to the motor (in addition to charging the battery). At startup the ICE-generator combo is producing voltage/current that is not exactly equal to that from the battery, and maybe fluctuating for a few seconds. So this uneveness in generator startup is at present not buffered well enough, and the result is a rough transition. Well, maybe — we don’t know what controls or switches or buffers they have in there now, so it is all conjecture.

Still, something like this probably is what’s happening. Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:27 am

#67 Brad G says: “Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?”

Many posts on this site have speculated about a turbine, HCCI, or diesel variation, but GM has stated repeatedly that the first Volt will use a 1.0L 3-piston turbocharged engine which runs on gasoline and/or E85. The main unanswered questions about the engine are:
1) Will it be constant or variable RPMs?
2) Will it use an Otto, Atkinson, or Miller cycle design?

A gm-volt.com interview with GM last summer indicated that the engine would be variable RPM, but that was later brought into question.

Most gas engines use the Otto cycle for maximum torque. Traditional hybrids like the Prius don’t require as much torque, since they use the electric motor to augment acceleration, so the Atkinson cycle engine is typical in most hybrids to increase efficiency. Newer turbocharged hybrids are using Miller cycle engine designs for maximum efficiency. Since the Volt’s engine is not connected to the wheels at all, torque is not a major concern. Given that the Volt’s engine is turbocharged, I would suspect it is a Miller cycle engine, but that has yet to be confirmed.

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statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:28 am

#74 Joe

I think we should just dust off old ‘Enola Gay’ then…and remind them what a little plutonium-239 can do for them.

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David Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:36 am

I think most manufacturers have come to the conclusion that electric is the future. GM’s Volt is a step of faith and a necessary one if we are going to have an auto industry in America. I’m in a Toyota now, but I know my future and my grandchildren’s future rest with the sucess of GM and a few other industrial leaders willing to take some long-term risks. Go GM!!!

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:43 am

#76 RB says: “Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary”

Actually, when the ICE is running, the battery is discharged somewhat during acceleration and uphill driving, and then recharged back to 30% when you let off on the accelerator. This is called “charge sustaining mode”.

The ICE & generator supply much less power than the battery. The batteries and electric motor produce around 120KW of power, which translates to around 160hp. The ICE & generator produce around 1/2 that, 53KW if I remember correctly.

In charge sustaining mode, the ICE & generator provide AVERAGE horsepower, while the batteries and electric motor provide PEAK horsepower for acceleration or driving uphill. Even if you’re driving up a steep mountain, the 30% SOC in the battery is enough to get you there, so average horsepower is less than 1/2 of peak horsepower in any real world scenario.

Now if you cut the battery size in half for a 20-mile version, all this could change.

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nasaman Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:44 am

76 RB……
Based on my background in large batteries used on spacecraft, I’d guess what GM is experiencing is due to the somewhat higher voltage initially needed from the generator to cause the Volt battery to begin acquiring charge. Think of it this way….. when a lead-acid battery is fully charged its nominal (open-circuit) voltage is close to 12.7volts. But when the alternator first begins charging, the battery voltage momentarily jumps to a little over 14 volts, or about 10% higher. Even with the Volt’s motor/controller hard-wired to the battery, when the ICE/generator first comes on the initial “voltage spike” across the battery probably causes a momentary surge in motor current ….this is what I think Bob Lutz may be describing.

I think they can suppress that initial motor surge and muffle the ICE starting noise without too much difficulty.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:46 am

#78 statik:
This type of humor is a bit harsh – even for you.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:48 am

Dave G, #70. I don’t want noise. There is too much noise already.
I want peace and quiet.

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Tom M Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:52 am

Joe # 74

Good article !
I think I am the grandpa of this site. I remember and was part of our commitment 1940- 1945 to build and beat this country. I have not forgot what happened to soldiers captured in the Philippines and the Pacific area. It will take another dedicated America to pull us out the fire again. This wonderful country we call America has to understand that good things do not come easy and we may have to make sacrifices to make us great again.
I have no doubt that GM has the technologies to produce an auto of this magnitude, get it to the public.
My main concern is they don’t take my drivers license away before the VOLT comes out. I’m on the list and hope I will have the opportunity to purchase a VOLT.

Tom

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omegaman66 Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am

Statik why do you even bother coming to this site? Never mind I know the answer to that question. If you are married I feel sorry for your spouse and kids. Must be horrible for them.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am

#80 Dave G — I agree with you on all points. The question is what happens in the first 30 seconds after the ICE comes on. On level ground, it seems like all voltage/current to the motor will be coming from the ICE, because the ICE/generator will be producing enough output, on the average, to supply the motor and charge the battery. However, the ICE/generator battery may not be entirely stable in the first seconds the ICE starts, and in any event will not exactly equal the battery voltage/current before the transition (probably close but not exactly the same).

All this is simply speculation, of course, but the battery to ICE switchover is bound to have some bumps at first. Now that the GM engineers have some recorded data to use I’m confident that they will fix this bumpiness, probably in some series of refinements. In 6 months the driver still may be aware of the transition, but it is not going to be a problem.

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JAK Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:59 am

I had to skip down a lot of posts, so sorry if this has already been covered.

For the design – make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents (I’m 30). Its going to be people of my generation or younger that have grown used to the IPhone or ITouch, sleek designs that use technology from the 90’s and after, and don’t look like something designed by a bunch of guys in suits smoking Lucky Strikes.
Look at what the military is doing with their jets, the F22 and F35. No analog guages. Just a few touchscreens that can be customized to the user. THAT is what I’d like to see. Give me the ability to choose what is on my display, and drag and drop the guages around to match my mood (or different drivers). I’d have no problem with a factory set display that looks like a normal car. But the ability to customize the display to my preferences would be great. Why do I* have to look at guages I don’t care about? Remember, these cars will be bought by the ME generation in a few years – lets give them what they want.

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:08 am

#82 Dave G

“#78 statik:
This type of humor is a bit harsh – even for you.”

You need to read the source article quoted in the original post, to understand my post. I’m wagering you didn’t read it, so it may seem that way to you.

I was being sarcastic, in my own way, with topical references, but it was in response to a tangent that lead into that direction. The word “War” is reference no fewer than 32 times directly in that linked article in post #74. So I believe it is fair ball.

From the link, ridiculously suggesting Japan is getting ready to go back to war:

“Japan have the world’s second largest military budget, they are also accumulating the largest stockpile of plutonium in the world (more than the U S or Russia) [Chicago Tribune 02/03/92 s1 p1] for reasons of “national security”. In Japan, Fujitsu has built several nuclear breeder reactors (such reactors are sometimes used to make nuclear weapons). The Japanese claim however, that they are for peacef ul purposes. Hopefully this is so.”

Hope that clears that up.

Cheers.
(=

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Theoldguy Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:12 am

I yes to a station wagon type …. I am currently driving my 2nd Malibu Maxx. (04 and now 07 LT) and just love the cargo capacity and it seats 5 comfortably..It is one of the few cars I have seen where you can actually slid the back seats forward or backwards (for the taller people) . And… it does not look like the regular station wagon…. Why not put all the Volt power train into the MAXX and maybe beef up the battery a bit to compensate for the additional size and weight…. 30 MPC and 50 MPG after that for around $ 40 K….When can I pick it up ???

Ray

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:20 am

#88 statik,
I realize that this was a joke (sarcastic humor), and I enjoy much of your humor, but you never know who is reading this site and how they will interpret things…

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Murray Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:25 am

JAK #87 …
I’m slightly older than you and I hear what you are saying, I would also really ‘digg’ customizable touch screen style instrumentation…it would be extremely cool to be able to set it up yourself because everybody is different.
One thing we wont need is a tachometer huh? Although, I can see people wanting a ’simulated’ tach maybe? Just like those who want a simluated ‘engine sound’ ??? I like the screaming in silence idea …. just drive defensively and those pedestrians and bikers wearing their iPods who couldnt hear you anyway should be nice and safe….

Yes, it would be great to have those options but dont you think GM would be better served to keep it simple inside?

…make the exterior catch the eye of the ‘ME’ generation and where I totally agree with you …

“For the design – make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents”

But for the inside I say start simple sans the fancy customized instrument cluster…

I am, of course, someone who wishes to own a Volt, and I should be able to afford one… but I would also like to see as many people as possible be able to afford this thing once it comes out. The batteries will be and should be where the $$$ are spent.

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Darius Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:29 am

Should they use clutch for smoothing bumping. Capacitors helps also. But on other hand Prius works smoothly. Why should not Volt?

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:30 am

#85 Omegaman66

“Statik why do you even bother coming to this site? Never mind I know the answer to that question. If you are married I feel sorry for your spouse and kids. Must be horrible for them”

I believe in making people responsible for their actions. I give credit when it is due, and don’t blow kisses at failures in hopes they do better ‘the next time’

If it appears I have zero loyalty to GM, (even though I own a GM car, and the last 3 of 5 have been a GM product), that is completely true. I don’t care about automakers at all. The have all been building huge, irresponsible, polluting behemoths for decades.

They shouldn’t even be allowed to advertise the things. The gas car is no different than the cigarette, public opinion just hasn’t evolved enough yet, but it is starting too now…and it will in time.

So to summarize. I’m here because I want to drive a electric vehicle.

I want to say to anyone to who will listen, “I will never own a gas car again, and you shouldn’t either. I want to be the first wave of change.” With every missed deadline, price increase, performance issue and lesser production announcement GM threatens/delays a piece of that reality for me and my kid (s) and I will hold them accountable, whether it be on this forum…or by buying the competition’s whip if it comes to market first.

Was that the answer you were thinking of to my question?

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Brad G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:30 am

Why does the car need to make noise for idiots walking with their I-pods cranked up or the ocassional blind person you see walking down the street (maybe once a year), Isn’t the Volt equipped with a horn? Give me a break…

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:32 am

#90 Dave G

I hear you Dave. And the source link is ‘hella long,’ few, (if any, other than myself) are probably going to read it.

(I’ll try to footnote reference my sarcasm on WMDs in the future, hehe)

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Vincent Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am

#77
Valid point. All cycles…Otto, Miller etc for those that are not “Gear Heads” or actually built performance engines… it’s not a mystical new engine.
Rather “tuning” of the camshaft profile….timing of the intake and exhaust valves & ignition timing & what power adder will be used. Turbo or Blower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_cycle

What ever tuning at a given rpm for a specific displacement for optimal generator rpm will be used. It’s just a tune.

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am

There are already groups representing the handicapped lobbying Congress to force existing hybrids to generate some kind of noise so that the blind can hear it coming.

There are at least four points about artificially generating sound for this purpose;

First, please don’t be tempted to think that this isn’t a valid issue. There are kids on bikes, and in the street, in residential neighborhoods; as well as the vision-impaired, to think of.

Above a certain speed, tire noise becomes significant enough to make a warning sound unnecessary (especially at freeway speeds, where there aren’t supposed to be any pedestrians). It’s likely that the artificial Volt sound could shut off at higher speeds.

If you deliberately create a sound, it need only be directed to the front, not in all directions like those annoying loud pipes.

The choice of sound can be optimized to be noticeable at close range without adding too much to the overall noise level: I imagine someting like a “rattle,” not a tone, but rapidly repeating bursts of white or pink noise filling most of the audible high frequency spectrum: “Kk Kk Kk Kk Kk … “ (which has the added benefit of requiring less power and smaller drivers to achieve highly directional results than lower sounds).

A bicycle’s bell gets noticed pretty well from an otherwise quiet vehicle, in part, because it is so quiet.

Of course, the best solution is to have a button to press manually, but this is only as effective as the driver’s willingness to press it. I expect something automatic could soon be mandated.

If this issue gets addressed early, it’s less likely that we’ll have some unacceptable (”osha beeper”) racket imposed upon us.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:37 am

#81 nasaman — thanks for the comment on the initial bump in voltage needed to start charging the battery. That explains the bumpiness Max Bob reported. Excellent information. As you said, now that they can quantify it, they can solve it, probably fairly quickly.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:38 am

Nasaman @72

You are about the only one around here lately that GETS IT!!

“high 30s to low 40s” range in a Malibu! This tells me the one thing I have been railing about for weeks. The VOLT does not need to look like an aero bubble!!

Take the extra range, give the car some more style and design appeal, and GM will have a GOLD mine. And they will have raised the bar for electric car design to levels the Japanese will have a hard time following.

GM can design cars with the best in the world, and it pains me to see the designers cut off at the knees by Cd and drag requirements.

The extra cost for going from 45 mpc to 35 mpc is TINY! About 25 cents worth of electricity? The equivalent situation for gasoline would have been when gas was about 1$ a gallon. Would you care if your car got 25mpg or 35 mpg if gas was a buck a gallon today??? Of course not!!

Then why is the fact that this car must get 40 mpc come hell or high water so important to some?? At the expense of design?? I absolutely don’t get it.

The fact that the drivetrain is getting the range Bob states in Malibu trim tells me that the Volt SHOULD be styled VERY WELL. If it is not, then GM will have wasted an incredible opportunity to show the world what American car designers can do with an electric car.

And they will have left the door wide open for someone else to come in and steal the design limelight. That would be tragic.

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:44 am

#97 Jackson

I imagine someting like a “rattle,” not a tone, but rapidly repeating bursts of white or pink noise filling most of the audible high frequency spectrum: “Kk Kk Kk Kk Kk … “

I imagine Usher’s “Yeah!” playing on a constant loop.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXbRBS5Z58

-OR-
for Tag/old school CCR/Fogarty “Born on the Bayou”

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NhxUNezI4l4

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am

#99 MetrologyFirst says “And they will have left the door wide open for someone else to come in and steal the design limelight. That would be tragic.”

Or maybe it is the other way around — the Volt will keep the limelight (it has it now) but Toyota (or Mitsubishi or Nissan) will take advantage of the halo and reap the sales volume, by being there about the same time as the Volt with a more affordable and available car. GM seems to be on the leading edge of the wave, but GM also seems very cautious about volume and actual sales. The others are right behind.

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MarkinWI Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am

Nasaman #72

Thanks for pushing the VUE plug-in. I pushed my wife to test-drive a Mariner Hybrid, but no sale. The trunk space was deemed too small, and the body shape too boxy. In a way I was glad, because I think that better things are around the corner. The VUE has cooler body styling, although I don’t know about the trunk space. BUT please press that we don’t need a V-6. It should be an option, not a standard. We don’t haul boats, only bikes and camping gear. Also, if they would look at the next size up as a hybrid (Outlook) that would be a nice option, and could compete directly with the Highlander Hybrid.

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Murray Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:48 am

Statik #93 …. it didnt take me very long to ‘get your angle’, hoepfully that post helps Omegaman66 “get you” …. well stated sir!

It will take me approximately 3 days to read that Japan article you guys are referencing

Jackson #97 …. I was taught a long long time ago that the most dangerous thing on the road is other people, you must always assume that the other guy doesnt SEE or HEAR you. I know that not everyone drives with this fundamental thought process and I understand why those groups representing the handicapped are doing so…. but here are 2 simple facts;

1) My current car already has a button that makes noise – its located in the center of my steering wheel
2) Accidents do and will continue to happen

GM should not have to worry about this issue for round 1 of the Volt (IMO)

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:52 am

#87 JAK says: “For the design – make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents (I’m 30)…”

The Volt is supposed to be a mainstream car for the masses, not a niche car for 30 and under.

There are lots of reasons people will want the Volt. More people are beginning to understand the link between foreign oil and terrorism. Global warming is causing more severe hurricanes, tornadoes, and flooding. Gas prices are skyrocketing. So I don’t think the Volt is limited to a particular age demographic.

For many people, a futuristic user interface is an instant turn-off.
Again, for people like you, I suggest a touch screen with lots of options as an optional GPS type console. That way, the rest of us won’t have to be subjected to it.

As an aside, I have lots of high tech gadgets like you speak of, but in car, I think scrolling through touch screen menus while driving is a recipe for disaster. This is exactly why they outlawed cell phones in cars.

GM, please keep the instrumentation simple!

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MarkinWI Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:52 am

Jackson #97

Agree with all. It is also a safety issue for drivers/passengers. Common wildlife (e.g. turkey, deer) can do tremendous damage to an automobile, and even cause fatalities. A silent-running car could multiply the number of accidents.

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Nelson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:53 am

#86 RB
Here’s the scenario:
You’re at home and an important call comes in on your cell phone. You pick up and your boss asks you if you can participate in a conference call going on related to the project you’ve been working on the last few months. You say, “Absolutely” and conversing begins. After a minute, you hear a tone on the phone indicating a low battery charge. You look on your desk and find the charger plug. You plug in and breathe a sigh as the phone continues to work.

As I’ve been told, the Volt ICE will not power the electric motor. The ICE will send a charge to the battery when the battery reaches 30% of its charge. The ICE’s purpose is not to fully charge the battery, but to maintain it at 30%.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:06 am

#93 statik says: “I don’t care about automakers at all. They have all been building huge, irresponsible, polluting behemoths for decades.”

I agree. GM’s bean counters don’t give a crap about me, so why should I be loyal to them? Frankly, I find it hard to understand loyalty to a brand to begin with. Capitalism, free-market competition, those are things I can understand.

And if anybody wonders, I’m here because I also want a car that runs on electricity. This is a Volt fan site, not a GM fan site. I’m pretty sure there are many others on this site who are not big fans of GM.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:10 am

#106 Nelson — Nice analogy. I agree that the battery-to-ICE transition should work as you said. Maybe a little disagreement is what happens when the ICE/generator is running — it seems likely that some current will flow directly from the generator to the motor, without charging the battery as an intermediate step, though charging the battery may be happening at the same time.

In the analogy, it is true that sometimes one does hear a crackle or two when the charger is first plugged in. In the Volt, as nasaman said, a little voltage bump may be needed to get the battery into charge rather than discharge mode. Then mechanically ICEs may take a few seconds to stablize under load, and as Dave G noted at #80, the situation is more complicated if the car is accelerating as the transition occurs. So things are not quite as simple as they first appear.

Still, I think we are all agreed that these transient events are going to get smoothed out. They are not fundamental obstacles.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:13 am

RB @ 101

Contrary to a lot of posts here, I believe “the masses” do care what their cars look like. They always have. It’s the zealots and activists that don’t care. The Prius is an outlier. It provided something (high mileage) that alot of people needed, at the right time, with no competition. I personally know 4 people who bought the Prius even though, to a person, they think it is”butt-ugly”. This is the opening for the Volt.

If GM comes along with a drop-dead beautifully styled Volt, at a good price, the other manufacturers will have their work to do. They have not demonstrated the ability to design an attractive electric car. When there is choice in this segment, the well styled cars will win. They almost always historically do. Particularly when the fuel cost impact is severely reduced. “Mileage (mpg,mpc)” will be much less important in the future. See post #99.

I do not fear competition for the Volt. I fear for an ugly, aerobubble Volt.

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Vincent Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:15 am

Ahhh nuts my edit didn’t come up. Anyway if you read the whole link it’s interesting. Shows different engine configurations beyond just tuning.
What ever is reliable, cost effective and mass production friendly will go in.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:30 am

Dave G, JAK, et. al.,

>> GM, please keep the instrumentation simple

I agree that this would keep the instrumentation costs down, and if well designed, that may even make the vehicle simpler to use/drive.

However there is no reason there couldn’t be an optional instrumentation package that is more advanced, with more functions, providing more automation, charge reminders, etc. Heck, you see it now in cars that come with-or-without an advanced navigation system.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:34 am

104. Dave G.,

>> This is exactly why they outlawed cell phones in cars.

Oh, don’t I wish! Don’t know where you are, but here in Wisconsin USA, it’s still legal. Horribly irresponsible in many cases (I drive defensively and deal with avoiding idiot cellphone-yappers every day on the freeway), but still legal.

I say this as a semi-libertarian who loves freedom, but for pete’s sake, you can’t yell “fire” in a movie theater, either, and that doesn’t erode the right to free speech.

EDIT: Sorry! I realize this post was pretty off-topic.

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Darius Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:43 am

Should GM outsource manufacturing of the power module to some one who knows better about electricity generation packs like they have done with battery. It is suprisingly late even to think about such issue. There are lot of backup power generator manufacturers.

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Jason The Saj Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:00 am

I think the Chevy Volt when released will be closer to a 60 mile range.
I think Chevy is actually downplaying their goal. I think the 20 mile range is a sawhorse tossed in front of Toyota. Who’s technology would allow such a range in 2010. So the idea would be to let Toyota think that 40 is the goal, and is doable, but 20 will be likely for the affordable model. Than release the Volt at 60 miles and maybe a cheaper one at 30 miles.

If the current mule is high 30’s low 40’s. Even with hilly terrain. Give a year of design refinements + battery improvements. Cost reductions of large scale production. And I think a 60+ miler is not out of the question as the actually released goal.

Toyota would meander along release their new Prius with a 20 mile electric range and find themselves competing against a 60 mile range.

Right now if I was GM, I would NOT be closing any of my factories. I would be re-tooling. Buying up a solar cell manufacturer and building solar cells at cost. Then selling them at cost with every Volt. And offering GM financing for the solar cells.

OMG what a killing. “I went in to buy a Chevy Volt for $25,000. I spent $70,000.” *insert Wife screaming in the background*

But sweetie, here’s the good news, I did buy the Volt – and not the Vette. But I also bought solar panels, and we won’t have to pay any more electric bills or gas bills.

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Vincent Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am

#113.
Making a generator is one thing. Making one with emissions is a whole different ball game. I don’t know of any company with more engine building experience or units built than GM. I doubt it will be any drama and most likely the easiest part of the build. Spinning a coil of wire by magnets is not tough. they have been doing it in alternators at GM for about 100 years.

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JAK Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:27 am

#104 Dave –
I see your point about making it simple and not adding to driver distraction. But how about at least having an active digital display instead of analog instruments. Many cars already have a digital speedometer. If it were customizable, they could lock the display unless the car was in park, like some front seat DVD players have now.
Just a thought, but it would also cut down on control wiring and systems, then all that would be there is a computer display. Its simplifying the design. I’m not an engineer, but it seems like it would be easier to have all the data go to a computer display through one processor then having 10 different gauges, each with their own cable and control, and each with the ability to malfunction.

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GXT Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:34 am

99. MetrologyFirst,

The cost of going from 35 mpc to 45 mpc is not just the cost of the electricity. You need a much larger battery to get that range as well. But perhaps $3,000 extra for the battery + plus the extra cost of the fancier pieces + the electricity per charge is worth a better looking car.

On another note, recent speculation on Honda’s new small hybrid is that it will be available first half of 2009, be less expensive than the Prius, look like the FCX, and be in the mid-50s MPG. 100,000 units in the US alone for 2009.

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Vincent Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:36 am

With my vehicle their are so many functions that can be controlled through the navigation screen or the screen in the instrument pod. But the software locks you out unless your in park. Except Navigation and a few other basic functions for front and rear climate etc.
They should make it as fun as possible with as many features as possible. Just no changes while vehicle in motion.

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Artimus Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:40 am

NOTE FOR BOB:

There is a lot of worry by some about how apartment/condo dwellers would recharge their Volt (should they buy one.) It is a reasonable concern. One solution is for GM to help jump start the Plug-In infrastructure. This might come about in the form of a JV with a large franchise like a convenient store, parking lot owner or mall management group. “Quick Charge” stations designed to accept credit/debit swipes would let EV owners charge in the absence of their own extension cord.

Two things are also important: the Volt power monitor should tell the owner how many kWh are needed for average mileage, e.g. “For 20 miles all-electric driving you will need 4kWh of energy.” The owner can then dial this number into the charge station, pay the fare, and return in a couple hours to a fully charged vehicle.

Of course if you work at a forward thinking company there will be charge stations installed in xx number of parking spaces. Some entrepreneur will do a big business in packaging charge station installations. GM can alleviate apartment dweller concerns by encouraging some level of public charge station construction and jump start alternative energy tycoons into competition.

Finally, a word of congratulations to GM’s JV with cellulosic ethanol makers. The Coskata project shows real leadership in alternative energy systems. The recent H2 station announce is also a leading position. Next might be some form of municipal solar charge station in the southern sun belt. This would leverage new thin-film PV technology and Li-Io storage so that a charge cycle could be had with near zero emissions. The municipality can require a fee for the service, which after amortization of costs can be a new revenue stream to the city. The “fuel” of course will be sunlight, which by some great source of wisdom, we have been given for free.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:48 am

#103 Murray says: “My current car already has a button that makes noise – its located in the center of my steering wheel”

The problem is that this button is momentary. You don’t leave it on when you’re driving through residential neighborhoods (at least I hope you don’t). Kids on bikes don’t advertise when they will dart in front of you. You need some sort of constant noise enabled by a switch you can leave on.

My main concern isn’t safety. My main concern is lawyers. If GM loses a big law suit because the Volt is too quiet, then:
1) GM would suspend Volt production
2) People would be afraid the Volt isn’t safe to drive
3) Volt sales would plummet

In my mind, the easiest solution is for GM to add a noise maker that can be enabled by a switch on the dash. If the driver forgets to turn this on and hits a kid on a bike, then it’s the driver’s fault. The lawyers would be forced to go after the driver, and this would keep them away GM’s deep pockets.

#83 Rashiid Amul says: “I don’t want noise. There is too much noise already. I want peace and quiet.”

I don’t want noise either, but I also don’t want Volt production to be suspended due to some law suit. So while the switch enabled noise maker is important to have, I personally would leave the switch always off.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:52 am

#119 Artimus — Good points on the need for recharge for apts, etc. Here in the Carolinas, it is reported in the newpapers that anticipating plug-in cars Duke energy (the electric utility for much of the area) has set up a fund to pay for the installation of electric outlets for such purposes. These outlets will no doubt be metered. I’m not sure if the bills will go to the property owner, or perhaps use some kind of individualized charge-card system.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:52 am

#97 Jackson. Sorry. I live in the woods. Hardly any traffic, blind people or kids. I want silence. No noise whatsoever.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:55 am

#120 Dave G — some earlier safety studies envisioned a periodic chime that could be switched on in residential areas, not loud or objectionable but enough to hear an audible “here I am.” It was pictured as under driver control, something that could be done that was not as abrasive as the normal horn. Railroad train engineers have this kind of 2-level sound system, the big “get out of my way” horn, but then also the bell that rings periodically when moving slowly in populated areas or stations.

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:57 am

Well this is all getting pretty overwhelming, but just to show I’m trying to pay attention, let me offer the following:

#30 Grizzly:

Speaking as a certified “EV Evangelical So. Ca. wacko”, I can stand a few bumps out of the driveline if they just get the !@#$% car to the public. You ought to hear the auto trans in our 2006 1500 clang when you drop it into gear from neutral. They have had over 20 years to refine these 700R4 derivatives and it still jerks. We gotta get some product in the showrooms man.

44 Rashiid Amul & # 47 nasaman:

Agreed. Right on point, as always.

#49 Dave G:

Absolutely right, IMHO:

#52 M1EK:

We haven’t been played for suckers. We just want GM to survive and go forward, even if it’s in spite of themselves. If they fail, at least we will be able to say that we, by God, did whatever we could

#55 RB:

I would just say that claiming to be green while carrying on with business as usual doesn’t get it any more. The public is not falling for that any longer, nor is the stock market if you follow Statik’s analyses. If GM actually thinks that they are going to prolong the inevitable by putting up some sort of Potemkin, vaporware, “green” car, they are in for a rude shock. I, for one, believe that they know that.

#70 Dave G & #94 Brad G (any relation?):

Agreed. Somebody else mentioned the little button in the middle of the steering wheel. Hello? I used to have a 1961 Alfa Romeo that had a little toggle switch for softer or louder horn. Come to think of it somebody (Renault?) had an ad saying “City horn, country horn”.

#78 Statik:

IS IT TRUE????????? Statik is the screen name of Dick Cheny? Are you posting from the undisclosed secure location?

Great comments all. This blog is getting so busy it’s hard to find time to read them all. My humble apologies to everybody I missed.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

#119 Artimus,

Apartment and Condo parking lots will have card or key based charging ports, but not until plug-ins like the Volt get some traction in the market. When Volt sales hit 100,000, then these types of charging ports will begin to appear.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

101 RB, says, “…… the Volt will keep the limelight (it has it now) but Toyota (or Mitsubishi or Nissan) will take advantage of the halo and reap the sales volume, by being there about the same time as the Volt with a more affordable and available car. GM seems to be on the leading edge of the wave, but GM also seems very cautious about volume and actual sales. The others are right behind”

Agreed. Toyota is on the offense and won’t slow down for anyone.
They are right on GM’s heals. GM is playing defense but seriously needs to hit the ground running. Price the car for the masses. Make lots of them and make them extremely reliable. Toyota will not be shy in promoting and selling their plugin Prius. GM needs to jump up and down and scream to everyone, “Here is our EV. Anyone can buy it! It is green. It gets 50 MPG after the first 40 miles. It is American made and extremely well engineered.”

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Darius Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Vincent

Emissions are even stricter for backup power generators. The GM normally dealing with Otto cycle engines. Here they can use what ever cycle they want. It depends more on electrical architecture and it is different they been doing before.

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

#122 Rashiid Amul:

Amen. Non-issue. Next case.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

#122 Rashiid Amul,
I don’t want noise either, but I also don’t want Volt production to be suspended due to some law suit. So while a switch enabled noise maker is important to have, I personally would leave the switch always off.

#123 RB,
I think something that resembled engine noise would be best. Any other noise could be misconstrued for something else.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

#124 noel — good comments. I think GM’s attitude toward the Volt is evolving. I think the first approval was just for image, and that outlook may still be true for the majority of people at GM, a huge corporation that remains mostly focused on building ICE vehicles.

However, because of the unexpected level of interest from outsiders such as ourselves, and mainly because of interest from the wider world-wide public due to rising gas prices, I think some people at GM are moving their thinking toward real electric cars in significant volumes. But the latter vehicles may be the 2nd generation electrics, not the Volt40.

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From OPEC (fiction?) Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

An Open Letter from the OPEC Oil Ministers to the America People:

THANK YOU AMERICA for being such a cooperative adversary. We publish this letter before the world to prove that your infidel ways prevent you from making change.

As you know, the members of OPEC have been at economic war with you since the 1970s. Some of the OPEC Ministers thought that the 1970’s oil embargo was a bad first move on OPEC’s part in that it might result in America deciding to seek an alternative energy source. The Brazilians were smart enough to seek their own alternative sources of energy as a result of the 1970s oil embargo but we should have known that we could count on the Americans to keep us in business. You are so arrogant you haven’t even recognized your own stupidity!

OPEC is extracting on a net basis $700 billion/year out of your American economy. This means you are transferring to OPEC two billion dollars of American economic equity each day; Cha Ching! You will be happy to know we have been accumulating shares in your banks, real estate, and publicly held companies. Your funny man President Bush wants to further speed this transfer of wealth; he is begging us to sell you even more oil! Allah does have a sense of humor! Now that you have transferred a large potion of your national wealth to us, we are most generous to lend you back some of those dollars (with interest of course). We are now able to also manipulate your markets, currency, and economies to our benefit. We will both destroy you and own you! Praise Allah!

Thank you for being too stupid to develop your American 200+ year supply of oil shale and tar sands, to drill in Florida, and to drill in Alaska. Thank you for over regulating every segment of your energy industry and thus delaying, by decades, the development of alternate fuel technologies. We thank all the American lobbyists and American politicians for keeping things as they are even though it’s destroying America. Most of all, thank you for not developing a comprehensive nuclear electric generation infrastructure like the French have done; that would have seriously impacted our ability to destroy you.

We thank the American Congress for implementing the corn ethanol program. How brilliant! You are too stupid to manufacture economically viable sugar cane based ethanol like the Brazilians have done. Instead you use corn which has less than ¼ the energy conversion density as sugar cane. This is a gift from Allah, praise his name! We never would have thought of this one! Have American farmers use more energy to create less energy, and simultaneously drive American food prices through the roof.

Some of you Americans think you can say goodbye to OPEC by developing electric cars. How very funny! It will take you over 30 years to convert your fleet of cars to electric at a scale that has any impact on your reliance in OPEC. You stupid American infidels have no sense of urgency with regards to pursuing American energy independence (especially if it requires any individual sacrifice) and OPEC can count on the American politicians of both parties to talk a good game but not put in place any meaningful policies to accelerate any transition to electric cars. That will give OPEC over 30 more years to suck America dry. You will be broke after 30 more years!

You have more missiles, bombs, and technology; but we have oil and Allah

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

“I imagine Usher’s “Yeah!” playing on a constant loop.

-OR-
for Tag/old school CCR/Fogarty “Born on the Bayou”

Old and busted: downloading “ringtones.”

New Hotness: downloadting “cartones”

/rushing to patent office.

(Or you could, you know, just play … Statik –?)

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DaveP Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Couple things.
For ‘rough’ it is unclear what kind of ‘rough’ness he’s talking about. I suspect for a ‘car guy’ like Bob, ‘rough’ is a euphamism for “vibrates like heck” (Which itself is a euphamism for what Bob probably would have said . This could definitely be so, I would suspect that they may have either eliminated the flywheel or reduced it’s size to reduce weight since there is no clutch – they just directly connected the ICE to the generator. Honda’s IMA does a similar trick, the electric motor replaces the flywheel. But it’s a lot lighter than a flywheel would have been, so they actually use the electric motor as a dynamic flywheel. They absorb an electric pulse on the power strokes and provide an electric pulse to aid the exhaust strokes. That plus dynamic dampening engine mounting brackets did the trick. But the IMA is a very small electric motor, I’d imagine you wouldn’t need the dynamic dampening brackets if you had a much larger motor capable of dampening more vibration itself.

As for coasting with an electric motor, I think that there could be such a mode with the induction motor. If you let the magnetic fields disapate, you should be left with just a big metal spindle rotating freely. But that would have to be under the control of the electronics.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Dave G, #120 says, “I don’t want noise either, but I also don’t want Volt production to be suspended due to some law suit. So while the switch enabled noise maker is important to have, I personally would leave the switch always off.”

Although it doesn’t make me feel good, I think you are correct with this argument.

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Biodieseljeep Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

Haiku for Statik

Sharp eyed engineer
Normally you see it all
Forgot regen brakes

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Anthony BC Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

GM, customizable displays would be nice!

Car silent, bikes silent. Car got horn, bike got horn/bell. Both parties use them, thanks!

Hey OPEC #131, If you crush/destroy America is that not going to kill that 700 billion a year cash flow? Boy, that’s gotta hurt!

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

#126 Rashiid Amul:

Right again. To me, the key is becoming “Make lots of them….” Not to repeat my comment on the thread below, but Honda had 50,000 on a waiting list for the first 500 FCXs. The FCX is a lot less practical and more difficult to fuel car than a Volt, IMHO. It just shows the huge pent up demand for such vehicles. Even I am not going to wait around forever for availability of the Volt. As we have been saying from the beginning, if GM doesn’t get to the market first, with serious volume, T, H, M, N, etc., aka japan, Inc., will leaved them for dead again. Maybe for good this time.

#130 RB:

Alas, I fear that you are right. It won’t be good enough, however. See above.

#131 From OPEC (fiction?):

Alas, not fiction, but God’s honest truth. As my old Daddy used to say, “It’s too true to be funny.”

I and others keep telling GM to “Innovate or die.” I guess it’s true for all of us, come to that.

You guys are great. Blog On!

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Darius Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

I think noise is not an issue. What noise level is enough or too high or low – big question. Should be new rules addopted. Otherwise law suites make no sence. Does tires are not making any noise?

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

#138 Darius says: “What noise level is enough or too high or low – big question.”

This one’s easy. Just measure the noise from existing gas engine cars and take an average. Then have the Volt emit the same average amount of noise when the driver decides to switch it on (if ever).

As for tire noise, this is plenty at high speeds but not enough at, say, 30 mph on a residential street.

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nasaman Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

97 Jackson, 100 Statik, 103 Murray, 120 Dave G, et al……..
Re: Volt is so quiet it’s dangerous to people, animals:

GM developed an IR sensor that clearly depicted humans & animals on a heads-up driver’s display several years ago. Instead, this IR sensor could be used to trigger a gentle, non-offensive (but highly audible) “ding—ding—ding” sound that repeated as long as its forward-looking IR sensor detected person(s) or animal(s) ahead.

The sound itself could be very similar to that produced by a percussionist’s “triangle” in an orchestra —which is high-pitched and unique enough it can easily be heard even during very loud orchestral passages (therefore, easily heard through loud highway or city noises). Importantly, a triangle’s “ding” is universally considered to be a “gentle” and “pleasant” sound in spite its high level of audibility. However, a dash-mounted switch could temporarily disable it when the driver so desired, but after a few minutes it should automatically default to an “active sensing” mode.

We now return to this thread’s topic (whatever that was)

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Darius Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Dave G

Why not make a law suit on most silent ICE car when calculating average?

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Darius Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

I think it would be better to develop automatic braking system instead of noise increase. On other hand EV motor and transmission is not absolutely silent. It would be silent at crossroads but not at motion and especialy when braking. I saw electrical buses (trams with rubber tires). They are not silent at all.

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wwskinn3 Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

How about a cool looking 2 seater sports version. Convertible would be nice also.

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Theoldguy Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

No car is absolutely quiet…Up here in Central Alberta, Canada, there are enough pot holes/ expansion breaks, gravel and grit on the roads that just the tire noise would be enough to alert anyone (blind or not) that you are coming… this should be a non issue.. If you want to take it further…. how are you going to alert a deaf person looking the other way ??

it is a NON ISSUE…

Ray.

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eurobiker Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Regarding the concept of metered parking stalls where you can swipe your credit card, go to work or shopping, and come back to a charged up EV ready to go… uh, that’s a bit naive, at best. Unattended or unmonitored charge-ups will not work in the US.

We live in a country where people actually sit around writing computer viruses to dispense to the masses, just because they get their kicks by watching other people suffer and getting the name of their virus published on CNN.

What’s to prevent the guy in the stall next to you from grabbing your charge cord once you walk away, and plugging it into his own EV? Ok, so the charging company gets wise and builds in a failsafe method of shutting down the credit card billing mechanism once the cord is unplugged from the original car. Then what do you do about all the hoodlums that get a kick out of running around the neighborhood unplugging EVERYONE’s EV when they’re not looking?

I work for a 4-service utility. We’ve seen it all here. Homeless guys gettin fried to a french fry in the middle of the night trying to steal $20 worth of copper wire from an underground 34.5 kV electric vault. Kids dumping boulders in sewer manholes, just to watch the water backup, only to find out the next day that the cops are now looking for them because they caused $18 million dollars worth of raw sewage damage to flooded basements.

EVs are targeted at the urban dweller, by definition (less than a 40 mile commute). Well, guess what, urban areas have the highest percentage of these dirtbags who would do this kind of stuff. New York, LA, Atlanta, Denver, D.C., Detroit…, real scatholes. Rest assured, the American public will drag down the success of the EV long before GM does.

and just wait til the youth of America finds out how big of an explosion they can create by puncturing a Li-ion battery…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ayuFBDrSg

No doubt, MythBusters will teach them proper hooligan ways, and how to “Go Big”.

I want an electric car just as much as the next guy. But a lot of new and never before thought of social disorders will be sure to fall out of the woodwork as a result… This is, after all, America. Ugh, the home of reality TV (gag).

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Ryan Plut Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

#83 Rashiid
I’m with you: I want, no, I NEED peace and quiet!

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Murray Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

RE: the “scream along in total silence” issue

I see the law suit angle…lawyers can just mess anything up, huh?

I guess I just think there should be higher priorities on the ‘To Do’ list to get this thing done.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

#140 nasaman,

Personally, I don’t really care what sound it makes as long as:
1) It prevents law suits against the Volt and GM
2) I can configure it to never come on

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

#141 Darius says: “Why not make a law suit on most silent ICE car when calculating average?”

There are lots of scumbag lawyers. Don’t put it past them.

What’s amazing to me is that so many big companies settle these law suits out of court. I guess they figure a payoff is better than taking a chance, but don’t they realize they are just encouraging the next lawsuit?

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Jim F. Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Volt quietness/noise – There has been a lot of discussion about the Volt and other electric cars being too quiet. After some thought, I think that there should be some sort of noise generator. It should be automatically activated when the car is started – think backing out of garage while children are playing outside. Most neighborhood speed limits are set at 20-25 mph, so when car is operating at or below these speeds, the noise would be there. When cruising on the boulevard or interstate, the noise should automatically turn off. But there should also be a “defeat” switch for those times you wish to make a silent approach.

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

Move over, Statik, we have a new winner:

eurobiker.

On the one hand, I know that much of what you say is true (#145). However, this is not anything substantially different from the same sort of behavior perpetrated on anything within reach by this kind of person.

By your logic, though, nothing positive can ever be attempted, or be successful, no matter what: so why try? It reminds me of the supposedly intractible “complexity problem.”

As a typical Volt blog tecchie, I could observe that “this is not a technology problem.”

Much of what has been said about what America can do, if it wants to badly enough, and is willing to endure sacrifice, should also be placed against this kind of increasing moral/societal disintegration (and is really not within the scope of this site).

From a technical standpoint, high-speed recharging from stored energy could take place while the car owner waits; and I’m sure reasonable security issues can be addressed by the folks at GM.

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Murray Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

I hear you eurobiker #145 …

You bring up some valid concerns, although I would like to think most of the issues with charging stations could be overcome. I would hope there is already tangilble solutions on whichever innovative company is already working on said charging stations….maybe I’m being naive? color my guilty.

There will always be issues with “dirtbags” and the “youth of America” finding ways to screw with things…. but to make a statement that….
“the American public will drag down the success of the EV long before GM does.”
…. is a bit over the top in this readers opinion.

These “hoodlums” just need to have better parenting !!
(now there’s a naive statement for you)

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

#145 eurobiker,

I’m a bit more optimistic. The first plug-in charging ports will appear at apartments, condos, and office buildings. I’d wager these will be mechanical key based systems so as to work in all weather. Security cameras should help a lot here. As more sophisticated charging ports emerge, better counter measures will go with it.

As for Li/Ion explosions, the Volt doesn’t use these types of batteries. Yes, it’s Li/Ion, but a different chemistry. For example, the “Killacycle” racing motorcycle uses A123 batteries. The owner was showing off for the press recently and took off by accident, crashing into a Minivan. The battery pack was punctured. No explosion. Go to YouTube and search for “killacycle crash” for details.

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Tim Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Some people are just glass half-empty types. Ignore them and move on. Life includes risk. Get over it.

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

#145 eurobiker:

Does that mean you ride an MV Agusta?

I don’t think that electric cars will have any monopoly on “fuel” theft issues.

Recently in LA there has been a rash of thieves drilling holes in cars gas tanks with cordless drills to drain out the gas. Evidently you can’t get a siphon hose past the check valve in the filler. Steal $50 of gas, ruin an $800 (with labor to R&I) gas tank.

In this AM’s paper there is a report of thieves stealing $20,000 of diesel fuel out of a local gas station last night.

Man, I am afraid to leave my car while it is filling up to go in and get a coffee at the self serve gas station. At $4.50/gal, I can just see someone taking the nozzle out of my tank and sticking it in theirs.

As Bush I so famously said, “There is no monopoly on this sleaze factor.”

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Tagamet Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Statik@93
You say you give credit where credit is due, but as memory serves you said one positive thing about GM and took THAT back!
So GM gets no credit for even attempting the Volt project.l I get it.

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fred Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

# 74 Joe
Wow! What’s the chance that our leaders would read the article and care about us.

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mr_roboto Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Still haven’t realized that the Volt is just another GM engineering-by-press-release vaporware?

Wake up!

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

156 Tag

“You say you give credit where credit is due, but as memory serves you said one positive thing about GM and took THAT back!
So GM gets no credit for even attempting the Volt project.l I get it.”

They got credit when they started it, of course there was no site at the time to record my feelings for all-time. Also, they got me to come here and post (much to everyone’s enjoyment….I’m sure). Most importantly, and the only thing that matters, they got me to sign my name to a waiting list. So thats a nod of approval.

I’ve not asked for my name to be recended or anything on the wait list. If that day comes, there will probably be great rejoicing, because that is the day I no longer post anymore, hehe. I don’t post just to be a ‘horse’s patoot,’ I post because I care, it just doesn’t always come through, thats my fault.

It’s true there has been no praise since then. (Good memory on the one time I did give it for meeting a deadline on choosing a battery supplier, but that was a red herring so I did take it back)

Of course, generally praise comes on the back of success, or going above and beyond expectations. I honestly feel GM has done nothing but back peddle on deadlines, specs and price since they day they announced they were going to built it.

Let me ask you a serious question Tag. Are you happy with the direction of the Volt the last year?

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

Well what a bad evening (for me here in Western Europe) since I read Eurobiker’s post #145, is it that bad in the downtowns of the US ?

I think that imagination, creativity and technology may overcome a lot of the difficulties this Eurobiker was pointing out.

Eurobiker please, as Dave G said ,be positive, employ those people to ensure that the recharge in the center of town in public places is done correctly.

For instance, new small businesses could be created employing those people and supplying (quick) recharge capacities AND protecting the cord and your vehicle.

I have been in center Kinshsha (Democratic republic of Cong) with a correct car. If as a withe European you leave your car unattended then you ‘ll have problems, so it is simple, pay the street people a little money to “protect ” your car and you will find it like you left it and the street people even thank you,

Eurobiker, be creative and open to less lucky people. …

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

#135 Biodieseljeep

“Haiku for Statik

Sharp eyed engineer
Normally you see it all
Forgot regen brakes”

Thats a nice touch, I’ve always thought there was not enough poetry on this site. Never really considered the impact of the regen to tell you the truth. A total miss by me, I can happy man up to that.

I wonder how much real juice you get out of regen braking in the city? Might be good for a couple miles…good catch anyway. I know the highway would certainly wouldn’t net the same.

I never really put together that Lutz’s Mailibu ‘mule’ didn’t have it. I checked up on it, and your right, it doesn’t. There are several different ‘mules,’ but no overlapping battery/regens yet…which seems kind of puzzling, as you would think that would be a fairly important part of the battery testing.

“There are battery cars, ride and handling units, ones for propulsion systems, brakes, and steering”

So actually, we don’t really have a mule at all, we have a system test car. Here is the quote (again) on it:

“Next up are the true mule vehicles, or ARM’s, and are whole vehicles with all of the systems coming together. They contain a lot of hand built parts, but are “design intent”. Those will arrive at the end of 2008″

I like the part about the “true mules” E-flex definition.

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

Statik,

“True mule” : This is a nice expression, I think I’m myself a “true mule” for a lot of people beginning with my chrildren and my wife.

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Kent Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

KEEP IT UNDER $30,000!!!

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MrBogey Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

As far as charging it goes I don’t see why they can’t have a locking pronged design where the person just locks in their charge cord to the vehicle the sets their cord into the power station, flidown a protective cover and that starts the charging. That way the only way to remove it is to physically cut the cable. Sure, hoodlums could do that but there’s a lot more damaging things they’d probably do before that.

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Vincent Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

#127 Darius,
Thanks. I was not aware. The several large firms I worked for all had large Diesel generators. Looked like a modern tractor trailer engine.
Just a straight pipe to a muffler. No emissions at all. Maybe thats just New York?

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Statik Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Just finished doing a little digging on regenerative breaking. Figured the Hybrid Synery Website would be the most simlar in statistical comparision.

“…Prius as an example, the system can save the energy equivalent of 1ℓ (.25 gallons) of gas/petrol while running in city traffic for 100 km (60 miles).” According to the EPA, the Prius is rated at 46MPG. So theoretically, that works out to be about 7.9 miles of range. Efficiency is about a fourth of that in highway driving, or 2 miles of range. I’m actaully very surprised at the efficiency they achieve.

http://www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/regenerative_braking.html

I guess the question is, what is the split on range for the Volt for city/highway before regen is tacked on? Again going by EPA standards and ‘Synergy Drive comparables), it looks to add about 4 miles to the overall range number.

Doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic, I just thought it was interesting…we really have discussed very little, if anything, about the regen brakes here.

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jimbo Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Gentlemen, interesting conversation. As a physicist and EE, I can tell you that this approach has the best chance of changing the world. Bio-fuels just use more oil to produce, and the likelyhood of improvements there are slim. Hydrogen can be considered as a battery, but the losses to create hydrogen from electricity are enormous. Most Hydrogen today comes from LNG.

So, I am behind GM on this 100%, I will buy the car, and I would like to work on this if they need any help!

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CDAVIS Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

____________________________________________________
#131 From OPEC (fiction?) -

My thoughts:

One barrel of oil = 42 gallons. At $140/barrel, a gallon of oil = $3.33 dollars; somewhere between the cost of bottled water and Pepsi. OPEC is allowing oil to be sold at a stupidly low price considering that oil is a forever finite available commodity per geographic location and that oil is the only real commercial commodity that the OPEC countries have to barter with. The joke is on OPEC not America.

My thanks to the GM-VOLT team for doing their part on taking America to energy independence before OPEC realizes we Americans are stealing their oil. Hit it as hard as you can guys! We are all behind you.
__________________________________________________

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Arch Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

With all of this talk about recharging the Volt I called a guy at my local Electric CO-OP. He had exciting things to tell. He is sort of their “alternitive energy” guy. He said that the hot thing right now is to give each car its own IP address. You could come over to my house and plug in. The electric company would read the IP address and know who to bill for the electricity used. No need for meters everywhere. Just plug in and charge and the electric company would know who to charge. I do not know but it sounded good to me.

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Vincent Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

I Like that. Very Cool.
Oh no…the paranoid will think they are bing tracked by big brother. i have a dear friend that wont use EZ Pass because of this. (lol)
Jimbo…very cool to have a scientist on board!

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GM Volt Fan Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

After reading a bit about gas prices on the internet today, I think Big Oil and OPEC are starting to get pretty NERVOUS about the Chevy Volt and all the E-REV, BEV, PHEV, HEV and fuel cell technologies that are coming out. All the news channels like CNBC and CNN are talking about gas prices every day now. It’s issue #1. Everyone’s outraged about these gas prices and are talking about how we’re going to deal with it.

I read this week that OPEC and Big Oil are actually hoping oil prices go down (a little anyway) because of their fear of the new technologies on the way. They don’t like this idea of future Volt owners only having to fill up their tanks 4-5 times per YEAR instead of 24-30 times or more with the gas guzzlers we have now. Because of the Volt and the other hybrids on the way, we have a real shot at beating our addiction to their product. They don’t likie that. Big Oil is a bit like the cigarette industry. They want to KEEP us addicted and dependent on them like we’re a bunch of junkies who will pay anything to get some dope.

There’s definitely a storm brewing over oil and fossil fuels that’s probably going to get bigger and bigger every year … a “war on oil”. GM is going to look like a genius company in the next few years. They’ll get TONS of good publicity coming their way if they hit a home run with the Volt.

GM will be one of the main companies that gives us back the freedom to drive that we’ve gotten used to. Us Americans love that freedom we get from being able to drive (and fly) around the country without it costing a ridiculous amount of money. It’s starting to look like “the electrification of the automobile” is a snowball starting to roll downhill and it’s gonna get really big in the next 5-10 years.

Like T.O. of the Dallas Cowboys would say … “get yer popcorn ready”. The age of the electric car is dawning. Go GM !!! Get ‘er done!

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Estero Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

#169 Arch

Assigning a unique IP Address to each car is a cool idea. But, this is not likely to happen overnight. I’m not sure there is enough time between now and when the Volt arrives to make it happen.

On the public Internet, as opposed to private internets or intranets, IP addresses are managed and created by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA). The IANA generally allocates super-blocks to Regional Internet Registries, who in turn allocate smaller blocks to Internet service providers and enterprises. And, the IANA works very slowly at times!

We are fast running out of IP Addresses with the current IP standard, IPv4. It uses 32-bit (4-byte) addresses, which limits the address space to 4,294,967,296 (2^32) possible unique addresses.

IPv6 is just around the corner and is intended to replace IPv4. It can’t get here soon enough if the power companies are serious about assigning each car its own IP Address. I can only wonder how the IP number assigned to a car get put back into the pool of available IP addresses when the car becomes junk.

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nasaman Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

167 Jimbo…..
Welcome to the forum! As a guy with a similar bkgnd (Astrophysics + Elec Engrng) I sometimes feel a bit lonely. I’ll watch for your posts!

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wwskinn3 Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

Met a guy with a brand new truck the other day. I asked him about it. He said it was a little expensive and didn’t get very good gas mileage. He said this wasn’t that big a deal because they told him his truck was “flex fuel” ready and he could save money by using alternate fuels. I said you paid extra for that; then asked him “when is the last time you saw a “flex fuel” gas station? He looked at me like I was crazy and walked off.

I’m ready for electric – but there are others that don’t seem to understand a whole lot.

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

I think that the issue of how to service apartments/condos with no power availability is also one for the future. Clearly, there won’t be enough Volts for the first few years to satisfy the demand from people who have garages and ways to plug them in at night.

First things first. Build enough Volts to where selling them to people who have to park them outdoors becomes a marketing issue, and solve this one in the meantime.

I think that a lot of our compatriots in The Great White North who park outside during the winter have plug in capability fro block heaters, no? So that will solve at least some of the problem.

I can plug in at home and at work. if I have to run the “range extender” on road trips, so be it. That’s what it’s for. Plus, we can pack an extension cord and sneak it out the motel window. Maybe we can slip them 5 bucks if they catch us. I bet they figure out a charge to tack onto your bill in a New York minute.

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noel park Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

#174 wskinn3:

Yeah, I have been ragging on Honda and Governor Schwarzenegger about the faux “Hydrogen Highway”. In this morning’s local paper, an article about the Honda FCX said that there are 10-15 hydrogen fueling stations in SoCal. That doesn’t sound like vary many, but last time I looked there was 1 (one) E85 pump in LA County, and 1(one) more in San Diego county. To service how many “flex-fuel” Tahoes, Suburbans, and what all?

So who is the biggest faker and “greenwasher” now?

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Estero Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

I came across a little negative in my #172 posting to #169 Arch. Sorry, I didn’t intend to be that way. The fact is I’m very intriqued by the idea and can see many possibilities along with many operational and security challenges to implement.

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Arch Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

#172 Estero

I do not know how it will work. I can tell you one thing. The CO-OP can now read my meter from the office. They told me they could not do that so I hooked them up with a stock I bought. They bought some meters and what ever other kind of equipment they needed
about 5 years ago. I used to spend a lot of time on the road in my motorhome. When I would get home the power would be shut off.
I got the first meter that could be read from the office. They now read it from the office and take the money out of my checking account. Most of the meters in my area can now be read from the office. I think it might work for cars like the Volt. At the time they installed it they told me each meter had an IP address and could be
read over the internet. Just what I was told

Take Care
Arch

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Tagamet Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

Statik@159 said:Of course, generally praise comes on the back of success, or going above and beyond expectations. I honestly feel GM has done nothing but back peddle on deadlines, specs and price since they day they announced they were going to built it.

Let me ask you a serious question Tag. Are you happy with the direction of the Volt the last year?

There’s a practice in shrinkery which is simply that very advanced, complex behaviors can be established by the process of “successive approximations”. When your child starts to TRY to stand – you applaude, smile, cheer, whatever is positive to that child (or adult). Once the first step forward is established it is rarely rewarded in favor of the next higher step or link in the chain. As each link is forged the next APPROXIMATION, the next step forward is cheered. If you wait for your child to ride his bike before cheering……
As to the last year. I’ve been cheering constantly. Yes, I’m more than satisfied. How about you?
Be well,
Tag

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Arch Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

#177 Estero

No problem here. Having been in the creative fields all my working life I am used to having to defend my ideas.

Take Care
Arch

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Tagamet Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

Arch,
I’d also read about meters that detect whose car it was and billed them direct. My understanding wasn’t that an IP would be used, but rather a unique identification number (maybe the VIN?), but that it’s be pretty easy to implement. Probably yet another Catch 22 – until there’s a large # of cars, why bother, but if it was available, there’d be a large number of cars SOONER.
Be well,
Tag

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GM Volt Fan Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

The electric utilities would probably use a “unique identification number” for each vehicle. For computers and other networked gear it is the MAC address … a number/letter combination. Every network card has a unique MAC address that works with ARP protocol to resolve IP addresses. The IP addresses change frequently even if you have a broadband high speed connection … unless you have a static IP with your internet service provider. Even with unique MAC addresses for cars, I see some problems. Who knows what they’ll do. It would have to be very secure and tamper proof.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:33 pm

To all who are talking about IP addresses for electric cars to identify billing, here’s a couple of points:

1) GM has said the 1st version of the Volt wont support anything like this.

2) If a later version of the Volt uses this, it would probably be based on MAC addresses, not IP addresses.

Here’s a little background.

IP addresses are usually assigned to a particular user and/or location, not a piece of hardware. For example, when you upgrade your computer, your IP address usually stays the same. So IP addresses are recycled.

Current IP addresses are only 4 bytes, so there are only 4 billion numbers to choose from, and they are running out.

IP (layer 3) addresses are usually tied to MAC (layer 2) hardware addresses through the Address Resolution Protocol (ARP).

For identification of physical hardware, a MAC address (Ethernet address), or some other layer 2 address is generally used. MAC addresses are 6 bytes long, so there are over 281 trillion numbers to choose from. Every piece of Ethernet hardware in the world has a unique MAC address. MAC addresses are thrown away with the associated hardware.

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Arch Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

#181 Tagamet

I was only reporting what I was told to me by my local CO-OP guy. I just called him to get his view. I have never been in the electric generation business. When something like this comes up I contact him to see what is up. He said IP address and that is what I reported.
Who knows where all of this will end up? That is what is meant by the saying “May you live in interesting times.” Some will love the challange and others will run in fear. JMHO

Take Care
Arch

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

Perhaps your friend meant a mac address, Arch. Every network interface card in every computer (more than one on some Linux and Unix servers), and every cellular phone has a unique one. When you get on the Internet, that address gets ‘bound’ to the IP address provided by your company ‘inside the firewall,’ or by your ISP. You may not have the same IP address from one session to the next, if you use DHCP to obtain it. The mac address does not change, it’s the true electronic ‘fingerprint’ of the network device.

mac addresses are based on six pairs of hexadecimal numbers. Sorry, I’m not up enough on math to work out the permutations, but they far outstrip the supply of available IP addresses.

Oops, Dave G. posted while I was writing this …

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Talks Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Some details on LG Chem/CPI Batteries. It was prepared recently.
Also mentioned GM-VOLT.com near the battery picture in one of the pages.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2008/energy_storage/merit08_alamgir.pdf

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

Mr_roboto (#158):

“Still haven’t realized that the Volt is just another GM engineering-by-press-release vaporware?

Wake up!”

With Toyota reversing itself and talking to Matsushita, and Volkswagen talking to another battery maker, and Ford, and Nissan … it looks like GM has convinced it’s peers, at least. If the Volt is “vaporware,” GM is likely doomed; and I think they know that.

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Arch Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

OK guys I give up! I just call the CO-OP to see if I could get some information about charging the Volt from the electrical generation side of the story. I reported what I got. I have NO idea of how valid it is. Guess I should just sit here and watch. LOL

Take Care
Arch

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

There was interesting news today for those of you who want to “go solar:”

http://tinyurl.com/5yy4r6

For those unwilling to click links in threads, this involves a material called “CIGS:” Copper-Indium-Gallium-Selenide. This can be deposited as a thin film on inexpensive, and even flexible substrates without high temperature processing. Unlike most thin film solar cells in use today, efficiencies for CIGS approach that of Silicon, but at a fraction of the cost.

Honda started their CIGS venture last year.

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RB Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

#188 Arch Thank you for the information. It sounds to like a reasonable response from a knowledgeable person, and I appreciate knowing what it was. It is not to say that things will be done exactly that way once millions of battery powered cars are out there, but likely it is where things are today.

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wwskinn3 Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

#189 Jackson – Does mean I can get these thin panels put on my roof and charge my volt while I am driving in this hot sun? Sounds like a good idea even if only partial recharge. Recharge in the parking lot while at work?

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

I strongly suspect that this won’t be a really compelling option until costs for multijunction solar cells (with efficiencies topping 60%) come down. Even then, we’d only be talking maybe 5 – 10 miles of extra range. The problem with solar on board a car is limited “real estate.” You’d have to convert more than half the sunlight landing on the vehicle to even have a chance at useful electricity (and high performance in solar cells ain’t cheap).

Having said that, I do have to confess that this is one of my fondest dreams for a future electric vehicle, and if enough solar energy is available to run the airconditioner on hot, summer days (without costing more than 1/4 the cost of the car), enough gadget freak/environmentalists would jump on it to create a market. After that, who knows?

I mentioned CIGS in reply #185 because many people on this blog want to install them on their house roofs, sell the power to the electric utilities at peak daytime rates, and buy power back at off-peak night rates to recharge their Volts (no net energy purchase). News like today’s is very good, for them.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

#167 jimbo,

I agree with you assessment that plug-in hybrids are the answer. I also agree that hydrogen and fuel cells are a red herring.

But I’m puzzled at your conclusion that bio-fuels won’t work. Yes, corn based ethanol won’t work, but Brazil has proven that sugar cane based ethanol works. In addition, the potential for algae seems limitless. If you haven’t already, go to YouTube and search on “algae”.

In my vision of the future, most people will be driving E-REVs (a.k.a. REEVs or serial hybrids). 75% of our current transportation oil consumption will convert to electricity. Most of the remaining 25% will be converted to bio-fuels based on switch grass, algae, and other biomass. This is all with very little change to our existing electric grid and filling stations.

So I think bio-fuels fit very nicely with cars like the Volt, and I’m very glad the Volt runs on E85.

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Dave G Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:43 pm

#174 wwskinn3 says: “He said this wasn’t that big a deal because they told him his truck was “flex fuel” ready and he could save money by using alternate fuels. I said you paid extra for that; then asked him “when is the last time you saw a “flex fuel” gas station?”

It only costs GM about $100 to add E85 capability. The reason that there isn’t any E85 available at filling stations is because the market penetration of flex-fuel cars is currently very low. Once 30% of the cars on the road are flex-fuel capable, you’ll start seeing E85 at some filling stations. If the government mandated that every car was flex-fuel, you would see E85 at most filling stations.

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Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 9:58 pm

GM Volt Fan (#171):

“I read this week that OPEC and Big Oil are actually hoping oil prices go down (a little anyway) because of their fear of the new technologies on the way.”

This is exactly what happened in the ’80s, following the first energy crisis of the ’70s. I recall that one of the big 3 news magazines had a cover made from an old drawing which looked like a smiling face when viewed right side up, and a frowning face when viewed upside down. The right side up label was “good news, cheap oil.” An upside down label read “bad news, cheap oil.”

The result of this price drop was the cancellation of most of the alternate energy research which had started in response to the embargo in the previous decade. The SUV followed in the ’90s.

We may have to hang tough for a time, here at Volt Nation, but the international situation is very much in our favor. China and India weren’t clamoring for oil in the ’70s like they are today. Any attempted ‘repeat performance’ of the ’80s oil glut will run into serious difficulty, very quickly.

I believe that any oil price dip will be followed swiftly by a continuing upward trend.

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Terry K Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

Sorry, I’ve been out, working overtime.
———————————
#74 Joe said this: “Here’s a link at how Japan got where there at today. I dare you to read it. http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html”

I read it – it confirmed my theory – Toyota may use GM’s hard won battery technology, improve it, and beat Gm to the showroom floor. Japan always takes the cool stuff we invent, and they make it smaller / lighter / more efficient / more powerful / even cooler. Now I’m twice as sure – Bob better run with this project like the devil AND all the demons of hell are chasing him. This has turned from a “moon-shot” to a space race, one that Toyota may yet win.
———————————
#90 Dave G, and all the others concerned about the Volt “noise”:

It’s well known to my friends that I have no love for cyclists (bicycles, not motorcycles, love those Harleys). Most cyclists have no respect for the rules of the road. In the city, they dart in and out of traffic, their riders not even looking to see if anything’s coming. In the country, they ride almost 10 mph on 40 MPH roads with no shoulder, backing up traffic, forcing motorists to pass them unsafely if they want to get where they are going on time.

Cyclists aren’t in a hurry, the road is their exercise equipment. Some of the more militant cyclists enjoy backing up traffic – I pointed at the traffic behind an oncoming cyclist, and he just smiled. I sooo wanted to run over him. They should play with their toys on the sidewalk, or on the shoulder on the road – yeah, a $3000 carbon fiber bike is still a toy, IMHO. They should get a motorcycle, a two-wheeled vehicle that plays nice with traffic, and use stationary bikes in the gym. OK, enough venting.

If you want a Volt that makes external noise, I suggest an electrical hum (the sound Disney monorails or light rail trains make). Low pitched but loud when the Volt accelerates from a stop, it gets softer as speed increases, and stops above a certain speed. It would seem to be an appropriate sound for the Volt. Downside ? Low frequency sound isn’t as directional as high pitched sound, but low pitched sounds are more pleasant than high pitched sounds.
———————————————–
#90 Dave G, to statik – “I realize that this was a joke (sarcastic humor), and I enjoy much of your humor, but you never know who is reading this site and how they will interpret things…”

Exactly – So no more posts are allowed from ANYONE, ever ! Since you can’t tell who might be offended by anything you say, it really is best that no one should post anything to this, or any other forum ever again. Sew your mount shut and cut off your fingers, lest they offend again. I was offended by what Dave G said, so he can never post again. Gonna be lonely ’round here, though, with no one posting.

Hence the danger of self-appointed censors.
———————————-
#171 GM Volt Fan – I think Big Oil is gonna be all right, don’t you worry about them. Before the alternative energy markets heat up, the oil corporations will use their windfall profits to buy into biofuels, hydrogen, electric plants, natural gas, and maybe solar panel technology. So sleep well tonight, and don’t worry about Exxon and their friends – they’re gonna be all right, you’ll see. It’s GM I worry about.
————————————
#189 Jackson – I read it, and it’s so cool. Imagine a car wrap made of these printed solar cells for the Volt. More impressive, Honda is working on it. Good reporting.
————————————
Whew ! Gotta get some sleep now. Oh yeah, keep thinking Volt HHR, in candy apple red. Bye !

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

Slightly off topic . . . but

First you give tax credits to Toyota for the Prius, but when it comes time for a local maker (GM) to do something this is the outcome?

“WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Senate on Tuesday blocked debate of a bill to offer about $17.7 billion in tax incentives for consumers to build renewable energy sources like windmills and solar arrays, and buy plug-in cars that run on electricity rather than gasoline.
. . . .
The bill also offered incentives for demonstrating ways to capture heat-trapping carbon dioxide emissions from coal-fired electric plants, and offered at least $3,000 in tax incentives for consumers to buy plug-in electric vehicles.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1730263720080617
You yanks are all mad. Don’t cry to me when you are paying $8 / gallon.

GM Volt Fan
Terry K is right, prices won’t come down again, to many buyers for too little product these days.

/emphasis mine.

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

Yes, NZD, we are all mad; for putting up with an elected government like this.

It’s quite sad, actually.

And don’t call me “yank,” I live in Georgia!

(Quote)
Terry Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

I want the Volt to be dead quiet and I want the drivers to pay attention. And we promise not to run over any Harley’s…..

jk

(Quote)
wwskinn3 Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

We need this. Things are getting wierd. There was a 20 year old guy in Galveston who couldn’t afford to drive a car to work at the local store was arrested last night for riding his bicycle to work. They said it was not registered so they arrested him. (Bicycle – registered ???) They arrested him and someone stole his bicycle while he was trying to get out of jail. This is getting strange! I wonder if this is the kind of support we can expect from our local gov’t for trying to save energy?

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

Arch,
Not to worry, Bud. You brought up a good thread of conversation. WHATEVER you do, don’t EVER “just watch”. (True child of the 60’s talk)
Be well,
Tag
PS Terry K, have you been having these mood swings long?
PPS Did I miss a reply from Statik?

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:17 pm

#196 Terry K
There is no need to apologize for being out, working overtime. You should do it more often.

(Quote)
Grizzly Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Noel park #124

“You ought to hear the auto trans in our 2006 1500 clang when you drop it into gear from neutral. They have had over 20 years to refine these 700R4 derivatives and it still jerks. We gotta get some product in the showrooms man.”

*** *** *** ***

Noel,

I hear you and I agree. My 2000 Ponti Grand AM has over 221K miles on it, but I’m not going to buy another gasoline car. The time is right and GM has chosen the right path and the right gamble if you will! It’s now a matter of dialing it in! Options NEVER hurt anyone.

Sooner is BETTER!

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
June 18th, 2008 at 1:00 am

What is this, Death Race 2000? I’m sorry to hear that my bicycle friends force Terry K, to make unsafe passes. (Mean, mean cyclists! They are all bad people!) I know it is not in Terry K’s kind heart to make those unsafe passes and threaten innocent lives. Bicyclists should be more like Harley riders (cheap shot, I know – Most Harley riders are decent folk too).

I ride at about 20 mph, I am typically in a hurry, and I ride where there is good pavement. When there is a shoulder or bike lane, I ride in it (unless it has been neglected). When I am in the bike lane or shoulder, people throw things at me, they honk, they yell, they see how close they can drive next to me, and they make unsafe passes. I know that not every motorist does that, only a few ignorant types. Most people are good and trend towards peaceful coexistence.

If any of you bicyclists out there have road bully experiences like mine, I suggest you ride with a helmet video cam to record the offense and the offending vehicle. Then you can use that evidence to call in a citizen’s arrest. If you don’t have a helmet cam, ride with a partner who can vouch for your story when you talk to the judge.

Didn’t this site used to be more astute and less asstoot? There is a difference between having an opinion and being opinionated. Decent people offer reasoned, educated opinions and respectfully listen to opposing arguments. Sometimes the opposing arguments change one’s opinion and the conversation elevates the participants. We should try to stay on topic and leave the prejudices for conversations with our like-minded friends. We are in mixed company. We should act like it.

What has this got to do with the Volt? I guess it has to do with the Volt’s quietness. Even as a bicyclist, I want a quiet Volt. I respect cars when I ride – they can kill me, or worse. I look for them. I hope they look for me too.

(Quote)
MetrologyFirst Says:
June 18th, 2008 at 9:23 am

Grizzly @ 203

I drive a Grand Am as well. 2003 GT 30th anniv. It is a great car, no problems yet cept a fuel pump (120,000 miles), it looks good, fun to drive, has some style, and I get 30-32mpg back and forth to work. I wish GM would build more cars like this.

I also expect to replace it with a Volt. The Volt would be perfect for me.
But it has to look good and have some style. I live 2.5 hr a day in that car and I won’t hold my nose doing it by driving a rolling bubble.

(Quote)
Michael Says:
June 19th, 2008 at 10:53 am

Damn, It’s time.

We in Germany paid 1.56€/litre* today. 2 more Years and the Fuel companys won’t see a cent from me again .

*Jeah thats right we pay 10$ per Gallon. If you dont live in Europe, you don’t know what it means to pay for fuel.

(Quote)
Arthur Says:
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:14 pm

I am from Scotland. This is the first US car that I have really ever been excited about or would consider buying when for sale here in Europe. I just cannot wait until 2010. Well done GM. I quite like that John McCain too – must be his Scottish background and his support for the Volt of course.

(Quote)

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