Reuters just published a report outlining an interview with Bob Lutz today on the Chevy Volt.
GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz continued to exude confidence that the Chevy Volt engineering should work out as planned, with a battery supplier to be named shortly.
Lutz said “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
He also confirmed the early Volt prototypes were achieving the electric range GM had hoped for, stating “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything”
Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”
Finally he took a shot at Toyota’s apparent recent turnaround in attitude toward lithium-ion batteries declaring “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk, that lithium ion batteries were prone to explode and that we were putting our customers at risk and that they would stay with the tried and true. When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
Source (Reuters)
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Jun 16th, 2008 (7:56 pm)Great to hear…keep up the good work GM!!
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:05 pm)Still talking about the battery contract too. That’s obviously on their minds.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:06 pm)I wonder if they will average around 45 miles after better calibration of the power system, better aero body and the proper drive train? Sounds like they will if they can exceed 40 right now.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:07 pm)HAH!
“When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
So true…so true….
Hope we will see better than low 30s, high 40s when it the VOLT is new. It was supposed to be that at end of life.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:08 pm)Hey Bob,
You gave us the Viper GTS….a modern classic.
The Z06 and ZR1 Vette. Be sure to throw your style and attitude in the Volt! We car guys like it!!!
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:08 pm)Bob lutz is so funny and correct on toyota!
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:10 pm)I love it. GM would be nowhere without a guy like Bob. There are few of them left. Nobody goes to the wall like he does. Bob PLEASE stand tall and tell it as you see it. I do not want to hear it from an adman.
Take Care
Arch
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:14 pm)Hey Kent, I think that the 45 miles you’re thinking are within the realm of reason. After all the test mules are running with a roughed-in calibration and a heavier, less aerodynamic body. I feel that if they can hit the benchmarks with the mule, then it shouldn’t be too much of a problem. And yes, RB, you’re more than likely very much correct. That contract will bug the crap out of them for a while. But if they are serious about a 20 mile version or another small E-Flex hybrids then it might help to keep the other battery contractor on standby.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:41 pm)It seems like a lot of Prius and Toyota supporters have a grudge against GM and their anger is more to do with their anger at the US automakers than actual Volt capabilities. I’d like to see a successful Volt if only to help decrease the smug levels.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (8:49 pm)Given that both battery companies have declared their intention to build the batteries in the USA, 29 months is not long to get a plant up and running from scratch.
So when can Lyle have his ride BOB?
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:03 pm)By 2010, there will be many players in this game. The ones who can attract the biggest crowd will sell more. Similiar to the iPhone that rocked the cellular industry. It has a cult-like following, people who don’t even like gadgets want one. This kind of marketing needs to happen to the Volt. I don’t see GM spending and ad money yet. Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country. Its a bird…a plane…no it’s the new Volt, coming soon to a town near you, along with other members of the Volt like the SuperVolt, miniVolt, MEGAVolt, MicroVolt. Of course, if the sales pitch fails it could be quite revolting.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:06 pm)Off topic. Honda has begun the first commercial production ever of a hydrogen fuel cell-powered car , will be on lease !
http://news.cnet.com/planetary-gear/?categoryId=2040
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:12 pm)That is definelty true, the way it is given to the public and then subsequently percieved is extremely important.
O, and now that we bring it up, the Volt’s offspring of e-rev vehicles will be interesting to see when they start being announced after the Volt is soundly in the game. Imagine, a whole vehicle line-up based on the Volt. Little economy cars and big SUV e-rev vehicles……honestly, who, or what could compete with that.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:17 pm)I think all these choices are a great idea. I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design. I’ll be in the market for 2 cars around the time this comes out, and I’d love to know a wagon version is in the makes. Just a thought. Maybe they can design the seats and doors with innovation to make it work in a similar way as a sedan. However, it’s great to move stuff and people around in a wagon…..a cool wagon. Just a thought, GM.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:17 pm)Nice shot, Bob – Take that, Toyota !
However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob. You have just insulted the honor of the Toyota Corporation – and you know how the Japanese uphold honor. Now, they will work twice as fast, twice as hard, to make the Prius better than the Volt, just so they don’t “lose face”.
Don’t look behind you, Bob – there might be a Toyota there. Run with this project like the devil himself is behind you. And I’m glad you’re putting the Volt 40 first. You can do it – the only one who can stop you, is you.
#14 tomnatcaleb – Think Volt HHR. In candy apple red – ooooooh, red.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:22 pm)GM needs to start lining up sexy celebs to be seen
- in a Chevy Volt
- on a Chevy Volt
- near a Chevy Volt
- talking about a Chevy Volt
- dreaming about a Chevy Volt
- sleeping in a Chevy Volt
- buying a Chevy Volt
and yes, DRIVING A CHEVY VOLT !!
Wake up marketeers !
How about 50 special edition Volts that have hundreds of LED lights around their body and are to be driven 24/7 around the top 50 cities in the USA for EXPOSURE ! (aka Consumer Awareness).
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:33 pm)GM needs some Apple Engineers on their payroll to help with the “human interface” on the Volt. The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use. Think of an iPhone on Wheels. Yeah, that’s the ticket. The Volt should become a natural extension to the customers body, their Comfort Zone. And Forget About VOICE Controls, that was tried with the K-car and Mercedes. The last thing people need with such a quiet car is synthetic noises.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:37 pm)The Steering Wheel should look and function more like a ginormous XBox360 or PS3 controller, that would be awesome.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:50 pm)#18 Steering – What buttons do I use to Jump, Fire, Spin 180 degrees fast, and toggle the third person camera angle ? It would make my commute a lot easier, and more lethal. (grin)
#17 Human Interface – Agreed, voice command technology just isn’t there yet. Too many variables in human voices. The Magallen Miestro GPS was just reviewed by consumer reports, and has problems understanding spoken commands.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:51 pm)Great work GM, you too Lyle!
Hopefully Lyle, you’ll get to ride of the mules and see the the final look by July 4th!
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Jun 16th, 2008 (9:51 pm)Hmmm…Japanese companies tend to favor domestic (Japanese) suppliers. Toyota probably has no desire to use another battery supplier than Panasonic. However, Toyota could be a great customer for the “so called loser” of the VOLT contract. Especially since their hybrid vehicles outsell all other competitors combined…which could be a smaller risk for the battery pack manufacturer.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (10:00 pm)I’m looking at the low 40’s for the Volt and wonder if I can do the same with it as I’ve done with my Avalanche. Yes, my Avalanche with an 8.1L Rat motor. It eats gas stations for breakfast. So what I’ve done is learned that coasting is my friend. I use the brakes as little as possible and increased my mileage by 4 mpg. I’m sure the Volt uses regenerative braking. I wonder if it’s going to be better to drive it and use the brakes or let it coast as much as possible. Which do you think will give the Volt more mileage?
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Jun 16th, 2008 (10:21 pm)\VOLT SS
Great news Lyle.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (10:48 pm)“high 30’s low 40’s”…..
Don’t forget boys thats in a malibu. If what we have been told the aero should easily increase that when they start driving the production volt mules.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (10:54 pm)“it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
That makes me giddy. That makes me really, really, excited.
(I run down pedestrians for a living)
Just Kidding.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:01 pm)Human Interface,
An iPhone on wheels? Are you kidding? I was hoping the Volt dashboard would be a giant Microsoft Zune.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:01 pm)#22 Todd:
If you’ve already got speed up, maintaining speed on a level surface is generally better than slowing down and speeding back up again. What that means is to try to take corners without slowing down!
(Of course there’s some crossover point where you’re going SO fast that the aerodynamic drag is greater than the momentum savings, so it will depend on how fast you are going, how good the aerodynamic drag is, how efficient the regen is and… oh forget it. We’ll find out…
#19 Terry K, #18 Steering:
I also want a fire button. Unless they misunderstand the meaning and when you push the button the car catches on fire. I don’t want that.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:11 pm)Todd, regarding mileage…
I suspect the Volt will get better mileage coasting over using the brakes, just because regenerative braking is not 100% efficient. However, the difference will not be dramatic as it would be in a heavy vehicle with no regenerative breaking.
Otherwise I certainly agree that coasting helps. My v8 Trailblazer has the dash computer option that shows instant fuel mileage based on how much fuel is going through the injectors. At say 50MPH, fuel efficiency can easily vary between 10MPG (accelerating) and 70 MPG (coasting).
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:13 pm)#22 Tod
Coasting will still net better mileage
but it will be much less of an advantage percentage-wise because of the regen. If you place any value on time, you will want to brake but not strongly enough engadge the friction pads unless essential.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:24 pm)“Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”
*** **** ****
It all takes work and development time! That is unless you’re one of those EV Evangelical So.CA. wackos who claim that the Volt should be out this fall no “and” “ifs” or…. Developing vehicles is *NOT* easy and takes time. I’m confident that GM will do their homework on this one! It’s also important to push the envelope, yes Li-ion is expensive and it’s pretty easy to just say “the market isn’t ready”, but this is exactly why we’ve been driving gasoline cars this long. If this doesn’t succeed we’ll be on the verge of the next worse thing to gasoline…..HYDROGEN!
~
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:41 pm)Today, in __________ Colorado where I live, I was driving to the local Target Supercenter. Going the other way, an Aptera drove by. The change is becoming reality and sooner than I expected.
Let’s go America – rid ourselves of turmoil Oil flowing from the Middle-East.
Proud, Retired US Air Force veteran. Bring our boys and girls home for good.
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:42 pm)Is there no end to this madness????!!!!!
I’m really encouraged!
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Jun 16th, 2008 (11:56 pm)JBF #31,
I agree. A little off topic but I just wonder if the word “Wheelus” rings any bells??
Take care
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:15 am)Wanna maximize battery life of VOLT ?.
Just charge the battery sufficient enough for the round trip. If you are travelling only 20miles round trip, just charge only 50%, this will maximize the calender life. Wireless web interface tool to access
VOLTs system would be very helpful in achieving this. Suppose on
a weekend, you want to go to a shopping mall which is 20 miles away(40 mile roundtrip), you could just login to your computer and make VOLT fully charge. Hope GM will provide us an option for partial charge.
Below link contains details on Li ion battery and factors that affect Cycle and Calender life.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:15 am)Lutz said, “There’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
“Almost no reasonable doubt” is a giant opening that Statik didn’t pounce on yet. Was it too easy? “Almost no reasonable doubt” means there is reasonable doubt. Discuss…
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:34 am)#35
I kind of think that’s what bob lutz has to say because making public statements seems like an extremely annoying thing that the listeners will pick apart and over analyze. Saying anything is 100% is bad PR. I’m PRETTY sure that i’m going to work tomorrow. Could i get a terrible flu or die in my sleep? Yes. Am i implying that i’m really debating going to a baseball game? no. He’s basically saying that unless something unforseen happens like chemistry changes or all of our plants get hit by tornadoes (the plants speed up if they’re hit by lightning) that everything will be fine. I don’t think he’s saying it to imply a critical flaw or a major hurdle.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:29 am)That photo of Lutz climbing out of the test car got me thinking: GM has got to be torn up about design… I mean, do we make it look like a “normal” car with doors that open wide and a keyed ignition and a “normal” dashboard and seats, so we can sell a lot of them to the “average joe” buyer?
OR do we do stuff that from a designers perspective is needed to fix the obvious problems of todays cars but that will look “too futuristic” to the average buyer and risk turning him off? Stuff like scarab doors that hinge upwards so you don’t ding your neighbor, pushbutton starting (like a computer), minimalist dashboard to minimize distractions, and seats that pivot so you face the open door.
All these things have appeared on other concept cars of the past, the research and engineering papers are available (GM wouldn’t be reinventing the wheel here) and I for one think it’s a no-brainer to risk it. This is the one thing above all else GM could do to make the public sit up and take notice after the roll-out. Then just watch the sales numbers take off!!!!
I mean without slapping on a bunch of slick eye candy stuff that really doesn’t serve a purpose (think Chrysler Concorde LXi stuff like a trip computer, refrigerated glovebox, automatic dimming mirrors, sunroofs that move six ways to sunday, video rearview, too-much-power-anything). I don’t mind rolling up my own window while I wear my “electric vehicle grin”.
C’mon GM, the point after all is to get the Volt into the hands of THE PUBLIC.
And soon!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:48 am)In the seventies, I was on a team that created a Voice Recognition and Response (VRR) system for use in the F-15 fighter jet. The Pilot would record a fixed set of words and then upload it to the computer, which stored it in an E-PROM chip. Anyway, it worked pretty good. The pilot could just say the “name” of an airport and using pattern-recognition code, the computer would automatically tune the cockpit radio to the appropriate frequency. The F-15 also had a Voice Warning system. We hired a female and male DJ from the local radio station for that. You can probably guess which voice the pilot’s preferred. Maybe the Volt could have a voice warning/control system like that old one, of course updated using today’s superchips.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:07 am)GM should get with Boeing Engineer and come up with a new “skin” for the Volt. Maybe something like a Honeycomb pattern snap-on panels that are extremely light and shock absorbing and can be molded into aerodynamic shapes, just like on a … plane. See, the Volt needs to battle the forces of the Wind just like a plane. Also, gonna need some serious low rolling-resistance tires, which will require new compounds still being perfected at Goodyear.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:27 am)Its good to see everyone so upbeat.
Ryan P #37, I think your first paragraph is about right. With all this new technology coming on board at once, it might be too much for the general public to handle futuristic designs. They need to be brought around a little more slowly than the average gizmo guru. Remember the fear of computers back in the 80s ?
The Volt needs to be well built with a dependable power source and somewhat familiar controls that drivers can relate to.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:33 am)Anyone else catch that “almost no reasonable doubt” actually means there IS a reasonable doubt…
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Jun 17th, 2008 (5:39 am)Kube. That’s just Lutz being positive, he really means there’s no reasonable doubt.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:10 am)I’m all for an awesome human interface, and would certainly support Apple doing it. But Microsoft? Gosh, the last thing I want to do is pull over and reboot my car.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:17 am)Wasn’t it the CEO of Intel, Andrew Grove who once said, “You don’t survive in this industry without being paranoid”, or something like that?
I agree with Terry K, #15. Toyota is right behind you, Mr. Lutz. Be paranoid. Always innovate and stay ahead. Never fall behind again.
Because Toyota would like nothing more than turning GM into a Yugo.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:35 am)#14 tomnatcaleb says: “I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design.”
I want one too! Lots of people on this site say they want a small E-FLEX station wagon. Now that gas is $4/gallon, I think GM has seriously underestimated the demand for a small station wagon. I think there are a lot of people hate oil and need a little cargo space.
Back in the 60s and 70s, car makers routinely made station wagon versions of their popular sedans. Same chassis, drive train, and front body design. Only the back was different. Maybe now is the time to get back to this. This would be so easy to do with the Volt.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:41 am)#15 Terry K says: “However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob.”
I think you missed the point. The 2010 date is extremely aggressive. Gearing up for production, crash tests, all this stuff takes time. Remember that we haven’t even seen the body style yet. Meanwhile, the software that controls how the engine comes on can be tweaked and fine-tuned until it is (hopefully) perfect.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:46 am)44 Rashiid……..
I’ve known Andy Grove since before he started Intel (when he headed Fairchild Semiconductor). He’s a brilliant semiconductor physicist who’s also a very smart businessman. AMD has always “nipped at Intel’s heels” so Grove HAD to stay paranoid to stay ahead. (Andy retired a few years ago.)
Your advice to Bob Lutz to “be paranoid” is excellent! Now that GM is 100 years old and is re-inventing itself in terms of drive trains and everything associated with them, it’s appropriate to think like an Intel or a Microsoft “startup” ….believe me, Toyota didn’t grow to become such a dominant company in HALF the time GM’s been around by being anything BUT paranoid! GE is one of the few other huge companies that’s survived as long as it has, and GE’s Jack Welsh did it by constantly re-inventing the company and thinking like an entrepreneur thinks! The only way to survive in business (or in a mission to Mars) is to “run hard, lean, hungry, scared & smart” and always “watch your back”!!!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:49 am)#9 MrBogey, Smug levels haha! doesn’t anyone else watch southpark?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:52 am)#17 Human Interface says: “The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use.”
I disagree. I test drove the Prius, and didn’t much like the the high tech instrumentation, but could live with it. But for my wife, it was a deal breaker. This was one of the main reasons we ended up buying a Honda.
If the Volt is to be a car for the masses, we need normal instrumentation. My suggestion is to integrate all the techie stuff into an optional GPS type console. This way, normal drivers won’t have to be subjected to it.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:52 am)Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
Ain’t that the truth!!!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (6:59 am)#14 tomnatcaleb, 45 Dave G……..
Regarding wanting an E-Flex station wagon, as I just posted on yesterday’s thread, GM has now released the Saturn 2 Mode hybrid VUE (a “tall” station wagon) for production this fall as a 2009 model. It should offer a greater improvement in overall mileage (vs the standard VUE) than a single mode hybrid (like Prius) because the first mode is optimized for city driving & the second mode for highway driving. The VUE has two 74HP electric motors (148HP total) and its gas engine is essentially the same 3.6L V6 used in the CTS Cadillac. So this hybrid should have TONS of hauling/pulling power, but its gas mileage is said to be comparable to that of a 4-cylinder Camry.
This new 2 Mode compact/crossover SUV is also the basis for GM’s other plug-in due out in the fall of 2010 along with the Volt and it is reportedly already in road testing. As a plug-in, GM will greatly increase the VUE’s Li-Ion battery size and optimize its control algorithms for maximum efficiency & EV-only range, city & hwy. They are promising an EV-only (AER) range of >10 miles.*
*How MUCH greater than 10 miles is unknown; however, as some here may know, I’m lobbying GM for a version with 35-40 miles AER comparable to that for the Volt
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:06 am)Amazing. You guys STILL don’t realize you’ve been played for suckers in a GM FUD attempt that went wrong.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:11 am)#39 Carbon Fiber Diet:
If you haven’t already, you should see the Nova “Car of the Future” segment on Carbon Fiber. Go to :
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/
Click on “Car of the Future”. The section on Carbon Fiber starts about 2/3 through Chapter 4.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:11 am)Battery Pack
Give the contract to A123/Cobalt. GM owns the company and can control battery supply and quality.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:11 am)DC Powa comments “Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country”
The Volt has developed so far as an image car, not as a car for sale. It is for TV, not billboards. Maybe that’s because GM really intended the Volt to be only an image car [not to be sold at all], until Lyle came along and forced the issue. Maybe the absence of selling is because GM will build so few in the first year, apparently, whether because of caution, lack of batteries, price or something else. Maybe the absence of selling is because they will all go to a few insider dealers in CA and DC for the first few years. It is a bit paradoxical.
The only part that seems clear is that the Volt will exist as image and specs, and will be on TV a lot as GM’s claim to be green. As a physical object, Volt40 seems to be destined to be a high-priced low-volume speciality car. A price of $50K with a 40% margin allows $30K for production, which may be divided roughly as $10K battery plus $20K car. My speculation is that most of us will see one some time some place but never own one.
If everything comes together this way, it will be a far cry from the concept announcement but a marked success for GM, in that they will have a leading-edge image car that is profitable even though not sold in large numbers. It will be a good beginning for later cars of the EREV type.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:12 am)Mike D #25
I know you were just kidding, but your comment reminded me of this…
http://www.cnet.com.au/cartech/cars/0,2000438541,339286236,00.htm
Question for everyone discussing “coasting” to get better mileage. Can you really coast in a car with no transmission? I thought this thing was supposed to be direct drive, from the electric motor.
I’m really curious about this, because my commute is 20 miles downhill to work, and then 20 miles uphill back home (from elevation 8500′ down to elevation 6000′ feet). I’m right at the 40 mile cutoff, but I wonder if I can take advantage of the downhill part to coast more.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:14 am)Toyota is probably realizing how this might be GM’s golden ticket to meeting and exceeding CAFE standards. Even with lower performing engines they can still get amazing gas mileage, such as if they install an engine that gets 25mpg, they can still get away with a 120 mile trip that still achieves 38mpg.
So imagine what Toyota is thinking, “what if we put an engine in that gets even BETTER gas mileage”. Then the goal of realizing the new CAFE standards would be a piece of cake.
But GM needs to keep up the momentum on this, let the young optimistic engineers work our brains out!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:17 am)Agree w/ DaveG #49…
There’s a lot of concerns over pricing the Volt for the masses …
For the first iteration of the Volt, how about we try to save a little bit on fancy touch screens and ‘hi-tech’ instrumentation panels and focus on the real reason we all have interest in this car… using less gas!
I’ll take the basics inside — give me comfortable seats, an analog speedometer, freakin’ steering wheel (I’ll put my own radio in it – Sirius Sat) and call it DONE…..spend more time on the exterior design, make this car distintictive and sleek with a very high ‘cool’ factor…
Fancy interiors can come later……..
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:23 am)#41 Kubel you get the ‘realist’ prize….second place goes to no one, lol
Total gloss over on the board about 3 things:
A) The title of the thread is actually a total fabrication. The quote from Bob is, “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
THERE IS NO “AS PLANNED” — this changes the whole meaning, like it or not, the title and content thereafter is manipulated, and it should be changed. Lutz is actually saying that the Volt is not 100 percent certain of it’s future at THIS moment.
Ironically, he choses to say, “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk” I would say that is correct, this is a huge risk, regardless of getting to market. Both in viability to recoup equity and to liability.
B) This post does more about what it implies than actually says…and it says that there will be NO production Chevy Volt anywhere in the near future regardless of what various talking heads say. How can you have one, when you don’t even have a working drivetrain? One and a half years to work on clunky engine noises and bumpy switches?
C) “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything” – wow, up like hills? I thought we only were going to drive on flat surfaces. Why did he have to add this comment, it only causes concern.
I know the drag is greater in a Malibu. But how much greater?…like 4-5 miles of range worth? It sounds like they have just zipped it up the odd hill, doesn’t sound like they have put it through ‘reasonable’ testing to me…and they are only getting high 30s sometimes? What about battery degradation? Isn’t the expected degradation 20% over it’s life? Doesn’t that mean it could feasibly be in the high 20s, low 30s after a few years?
(I’m not saying thats a ‘for sure’ on the battery range problems, but I am saying that brings a new ‘maybe’ into play…when they were saying the testing went ‘great’ and was exceeding expectation. Did we not think that meant the mules where going through ‘real world’ testing and were preforming well over the 40 mile range? I think we did)
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:24 am)RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!
well done!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:24 am)Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
I don’t watch much television. However, last night as I walked by I heard that ABC News would have a segment on new car technologies, including plug-ins. After seeing the preview, I watched until near the end of the news to see this feature.
They discussed the new FCX with its fuel cells, but never mentioned the Fuel Cell Equinox. They looked at a converted plug-in Prius, but never mentioned the Volt. They did manage to include a Ford Escape hybrid with plug-in capability, and showed a Tesla (which they claimed cost $120k) but that was it for domestic manufacturers.
After these blatant omissions, I have to agree with Bob Lutz. However, I’m not sure whether the mainstream media is ignorant or just plain dishonest and deceptive.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:26 am)#58 Murray
EXACTLY!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:28 am)Any reason that one might not want to be able to manually delay the ICE startup? Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone. Any thoughts?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:30 am)#51 nasaman,
The Saturn Vue is too big and heavy. We wanted something smaller and lighter, so we bought a 2007 Honda CR-V. The CR-V weighs 436 pounds less than the Vue. The Toyota RAV-4 weighs 525 pounds less than the Vue. This is all straight from the Saturn site under the Vue “Features and Specs Comparison”. When will U.S. car companies get the idea that bigger and heavier is worse?
In any event, the Honda CR-V is still bigger than we wanted. We had a Subaru Outback, but it broke down a lot, and the mileage was not good. What we really want is an efficient, reliable, small station wagon, which doesn’t seem to exist in the U.S.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:32 am)RE: Parker
You could but that would be outside of GM’s safety zone for the battery and might void your warranty.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:33 am)#63 Parker
To extend battery life, my understanding is the Volt is setup to never let the battery get below a 20% charge or above 80% capacity on a full charge.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:38 am)Is there going to be a manuel override on the ICE to shut it down or turn it on? I thought that ICE control was totally automatic and out of the drivers hands.
Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:41 am)Bob should stop worrying about what Toyota has said and what they are doing.
Does it cause any concern to anyone that Toyota’s only concern is that it can’t produce enough batteries in time to pump out more than a few hundred copies in 2010, not anything to do with the actual car?
It already has a “joint-venture” with Matsushita to get a plant up and going, into production in 2009 and full production in 2010.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (7:42 am)#63 Parker says: “Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone.”
This has been suggested many times before. I don’t think it’s a good idea let users control this. The E-REV (a.k.a. series hybrid) design requires a good amount of charge on the battery to deal with acceleration and uphill driving. This is why they can get away with using an 80hp ICE in a car with a 160hp electric motor.
Also, remember that the ICE only comes on just enough to keep the battery at 30% SOC, so the ICE doesn’t charge the battery.
In addition, one reason 30% SOC was chosen was because regularly discharging more than this can decrease the battery’s lifespan.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:03 am)A quote from the article: Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
I love the idea of silent driving, but there are downsides.
A few weeks ago, I read a CNN.com news piece about a kid on a bike that was hit by a Prius. The boy’s claimed he couldn’t hear the car coming, and that caused the accident. Once ambulance chasing lawyers get hold of this, there’s no telling how far it will go…
It might be wise for GM to put in some sort of artificial noise generation that the driver can control. This way, lawyers will be forced to go after the driver for negligence, and not GM.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:04 am)Wait wait wait wait…wait.
come on tech guys, what is up with this?
“it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”
If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough? I thought the wheels were connected to the electric motors, connnected to the battery, connected to the ICE. Is he talking the start-up of the ICE to charge the battery? How can that be rough enough to notice? What is going on?
Another note…
The car needs a proximity sound. A car zipping along that makes little or no sound is a safety hazard. “Loud pipes save lives” is no myth, I never complain about the sound of a Harley, at least I know where she is. It needs to have an option to have a “running sound” like running lights…loud enough to warn pedestrians and other animate beings, but still quieter than today’s cars.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:06 am)64 Dave G…..
Remember that the weight of a well-designed hybrid or E-REV becomes significantly less important to the vehicle’s overall economy. The plug-in VUE will use both deceleration charging (foot off the accelerator) and regenerative braking (foot on the brake). In the exact same chassis as the VUE, GM claims the plug-in Cadillac Provoq concept gets an AER of 20 miles with a 9kWh Li-Ion battery (with no help from the fuel cell).
So if the Plug-in Provoq (or VUE) had an 18kWh battery, it would get 40 miles AER. My point is that @10cents/KWH it costs 80 cents to fully charge the 8kWh in a Volt battery & 90 cents to fully charge the 9kWh in a hypothetical Provoq or VUE, regardless of vehicle weight. I’d gladly spend the extra 10 cents for the additional power, towing ability and interior space of the plug-in CUV!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:10 am)#60 Murray — me, like Statik? Wow, a great compliment. Scary, too
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:19 am)to #15 Terry K
You sound like Toyota is some kind of God. Hey, I’m old enough to know when we, in the USA, set our mind to do something, we can be the best. The Japanese have awoken a sleeping giant and fear not, the so call great Toyota will not beat us like you think they might. The only thing Toyota has contributed to the auto industry is quality and the Prius. Check and see what GM has contributed and you’ll be shock. The news media one day, I hope, will start reporting the facts straight. Toyota talks from both side of their mouth and you can not trust them. GM better have their technology patented because Toyota will steal their ideas and then the news media will say ” oh, those Toyota people are so so smart” Here’s a link at how Japan got where there at today. I dare you to read it.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:20 am)#60 Murray
“RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!”
Yes, I too thought it was smart, insightful and concise (SIC). It should a bold new, almost futuristic glimpse into the superior mind of tomorrow. A bold and innovative way to…
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:20 am)#71 Eco quotes Maximum Bob “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”
and then Eco asks a very good question “If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough?”
Maybe what we have is this: When the ICE comes on, it spins the generator, which then sends electricity directly to the motor (in addition to charging the battery). At startup the ICE-generator combo is producing voltage/current that is not exactly equal to that from the battery, and maybe fluctuating for a few seconds. So this uneveness in generator startup is at present not buffered well enough, and the result is a rough transition. Well, maybe — we don’t know what controls or switches or buffers they have in there now, so it is all conjecture.
Still, something like this probably is what’s happening. Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:27 am)#67 Brad G says: “Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?”
Many posts on this site have speculated about a turbine, HCCI, or diesel variation, but GM has stated repeatedly that the first Volt will use a 1.0L 3-piston turbocharged engine which runs on gasoline and/or E85. The main unanswered questions about the engine are:
1) Will it be constant or variable RPMs?
2) Will it use an Otto, Atkinson, or Miller cycle design?
A gm-volt.com interview with GM last summer indicated that the engine would be variable RPM, but that was later brought into question.
Most gas engines use the Otto cycle for maximum torque. Traditional hybrids like the Prius don’t require as much torque, since they use the electric motor to augment acceleration, so the Atkinson cycle engine is typical in most hybrids to increase efficiency. Newer turbocharged hybrids are using Miller cycle engine designs for maximum efficiency. Since the Volt’s engine is not connected to the wheels at all, torque is not a major concern. Given that the Volt’s engine is turbocharged, I would suspect it is a Miller cycle engine, but that has yet to be confirmed.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:28 am)#74 Joe
I think we should just dust off old ‘Enola Gay’ then…and remind them what a little plutonium-239 can do for them.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:36 am)I think most manufacturers have come to the conclusion that electric is the future. GM’s Volt is a step of faith and a necessary one if we are going to have an auto industry in America. I’m in a Toyota now, but I know my future and my grandchildren’s future rest with the sucess of GM and a few other industrial leaders willing to take some long-term risks. Go GM!!!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:43 am)#76 RB says: “Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary”
Actually, when the ICE is running, the battery is discharged somewhat during acceleration and uphill driving, and then recharged back to 30% when you let off on the accelerator. This is called “charge sustaining mode”.
The ICE & generator supply much less power than the battery. The batteries and electric motor produce around 120KW of power, which translates to around 160hp. The ICE & generator produce around 1/2 that, 53KW if I remember correctly.
In charge sustaining mode, the ICE & generator provide AVERAGE horsepower, while the batteries and electric motor provide PEAK horsepower for acceleration or driving uphill. Even if you’re driving up a steep mountain, the 30% SOC in the battery is enough to get you there, so average horsepower is less than 1/2 of peak horsepower in any real world scenario.
Now if you cut the battery size in half for a 20-mile version, all this could change.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:44 am)76 RB……
Based on my background in large batteries used on spacecraft, I’d guess what GM is experiencing is due to the somewhat higher voltage initially needed from the generator to cause the Volt battery to begin acquiring charge. Think of it this way….. when a lead-acid battery is fully charged its nominal (open-circuit) voltage is close to 12.7volts. But when the alternator first begins charging, the battery voltage momentarily jumps to a little over 14 volts, or about 10% higher. Even with the Volt’s motor/controller hard-wired to the battery, when the ICE/generator first comes on the initial “voltage spike” across the battery probably causes a momentary surge in motor current ….this is what I think Bob Lutz may be describing.
I think they can suppress that initial motor surge and muffle the ICE starting noise without too much difficulty.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:46 am)#78 statik:
This type of humor is a bit harsh – even for you.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:48 am)Dave G, #70. I don’t want noise. There is too much noise already.
I want peace and quiet.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:52 am)Joe # 74
Good article !
I think I am the grandpa of this site. I remember and was part of our commitment 1940- 1945 to build and beat this country. I have not forgot what happened to soldiers captured in the Philippines and the Pacific area. It will take another dedicated America to pull us out the fire again. This wonderful country we call America has to understand that good things do not come easy and we may have to make sacrifices to make us great again.
I have no doubt that GM has the technologies to produce an auto of this magnitude, get it to the public.
My main concern is they don’t take my drivers license away before the VOLT comes out. I’m on the list and hope I will have the opportunity to purchase a VOLT.
Tom
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:54 am)Statik why do you even bother coming to this site? Never mind I know the answer to that question. If you are married I feel sorry for your spouse and kids. Must be horrible for them.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:54 am)#80 Dave G — I agree with you on all points. The question is what happens in the first 30 seconds after the ICE comes on. On level ground, it seems like all voltage/current to the motor will be coming from the ICE, because the ICE/generator will be producing enough output, on the average, to supply the motor and charge the battery. However, the ICE/generator battery may not be entirely stable in the first seconds the ICE starts, and in any event will not exactly equal the battery voltage/current before the transition (probably close but not exactly the same).
All this is simply speculation, of course, but the battery to ICE switchover is bound to have some bumps at first. Now that the GM engineers have some recorded data to use I’m confident that they will fix this bumpiness, probably in some series of refinements. In 6 months the driver still may be aware of the transition, but it is not going to be a problem.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (8:59 am)I had to skip down a lot of posts, so sorry if this has already been covered.
For the design – make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents (I’m 30). Its going to be people of my generation or younger that have grown used to the IPhone or ITouch, sleek designs that use technology from the 90’s and after, and don’t look like something designed by a bunch of guys in suits smoking Lucky Strikes.
Look at what the military is doing with their jets, the F22 and F35. No analog guages. Just a few touchscreens that can be customized to the user. THAT is what I’d like to see. Give me the ability to choose what is on my display, and drag and drop the guages around to match my mood (or different drivers). I’d have no problem with a factory set display that looks like a normal car. But the ability to customize the display to my preferences would be great. Why do I* have to look at guages I don’t care about? Remember, these cars will be bought by the ME generation in a few years – lets give them what they want.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:08 am)#82 Dave G
“#78 statik:
This type of humor is a bit harsh – even for you.”
You need to read the source article quoted in the original post, to understand my post. I’m wagering you didn’t read it, so it may seem that way to you.
I was being sarcastic, in my own way, with topical references, but it was in response to a tangent that lead into that direction. The word “War” is reference no fewer than 32 times directly in that linked article in post #74. So I believe it is fair ball.
From the link, ridiculously suggesting Japan is getting ready to go back to war:
“Japan have the world’s second largest military budget, they are also accumulating the largest stockpile of plutonium in the world (more than the U S or Russia) [Chicago Tribune 02/03/92 s1 p1] for reasons of “national security”. In Japan, Fujitsu has built several nuclear breeder reactors (such reactors are sometimes used to make nuclear weapons). The Japanese claim however, that they are for peacef ul purposes. Hopefully this is so.”
Hope that clears that up.
Cheers.
(=
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:12 am)I yes to a station wagon type …. I am currently driving my 2nd Malibu Maxx. (04 and now 07 LT) and just love the cargo capacity and it seats 5 comfortably..It is one of the few cars I have seen where you can actually slid the back seats forward or backwards (for the taller people) . And… it does not look like the regular station wagon…. Why not put all the Volt power train into the MAXX and maybe beef up the battery a bit to compensate for the additional size and weight…. 30 MPC and 50 MPG after that for around $ 40 K….When can I pick it up ???
Ray
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:20 am)#88 statik,
I realize that this was a joke (sarcastic humor), and I enjoy much of your humor, but you never know who is reading this site and how they will interpret things…
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:25 am)JAK #87 …
I’m slightly older than you and I hear what you are saying, I would also really ‘digg’ customizable touch screen style instrumentation…it would be extremely cool to be able to set it up yourself because everybody is different.
One thing we wont need is a tachometer huh? Although, I can see people wanting a ’simulated’ tach maybe? Just like those who want a simluated ‘engine sound’ ??? I like the screaming in silence idea …. just drive defensively and those pedestrians and bikers wearing their iPods who couldnt hear you anyway should be nice and safe….
Yes, it would be great to have those options but dont you think GM would be better served to keep it simple inside?
…make the exterior catch the eye of the ‘ME’ generation and where I totally agree with you …
“For the design – make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents”
But for the inside I say start simple sans the fancy customized instrument cluster…
I am, of course, someone who wishes to own a Volt, and I should be able to afford one… but I would also like to see as many people as possible be able to afford this thing once it comes out. The batteries will be and should be where the $$$ are spent.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:29 am)Should they use clutch for smoothing bumping. Capacitors helps also. But on other hand Prius works smoothly. Why should not Volt?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:30 am)#85 Omegaman66
“Statik why do you even bother coming to this site? Never mind I know the answer to that question. If you are married I feel sorry for your spouse and kids. Must be horrible for them”
I believe in making people responsible for their actions. I give credit when it is due, and don’t blow kisses at failures in hopes they do better ‘the next time’
If it appears I have zero loyalty to GM, (even though I own a GM car, and the last 3 of 5 have been a GM product), that is completely true. I don’t care about automakers at all. The have all been building huge, irresponsible, polluting behemoths for decades.
They shouldn’t even be allowed to advertise the things. The gas car is no different than the cigarette, public opinion just hasn’t evolved enough yet, but it is starting too now…and it will in time.
So to summarize. I’m here because I want to drive a electric vehicle.
I want to say to anyone to who will listen, “I will never own a gas car again, and you shouldn’t either. I want to be the first wave of change.” With every missed deadline, price increase, performance issue and lesser production announcement GM threatens/delays a piece of that reality for me and my kid (s) and I will hold them accountable, whether it be on this forum…or by buying the competition’s whip if it comes to market first.
Was that the answer you were thinking of to my question?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:30 am)Why does the car need to make noise for idiots walking with their I-pods cranked up or the ocassional blind person you see walking down the street (maybe once a year), Isn’t the Volt equipped with a horn? Give me a break…
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:32 am)#90 Dave G
I hear you Dave. And the source link is ‘hella long,’ few, (if any, other than myself) are probably going to read it.
(I’ll try to footnote reference my sarcasm on WMDs in the future, hehe)
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:33 am)#77
Valid point. All cycles…Otto, Miller etc for those that are not “Gear Heads” or actually built performance engines… it’s not a mystical new engine.
Rather “tuning” of the camshaft profile….timing of the intake and exhaust valves & ignition timing & what power adder will be used. Turbo or Blower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_cycle
What ever tuning at a given rpm for a specific displacement for optimal generator rpm will be used. It’s just a tune.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:33 am)There are already groups representing the handicapped lobbying Congress to force existing hybrids to generate some kind of noise so that the blind can hear it coming.
There are at least four points about artificially generating sound for this purpose;
First, please don’t be tempted to think that this isn’t a valid issue. There are kids on bikes, and in the street, in residential neighborhoods; as well as the vision-impaired, to think of.
Above a certain speed, tire noise becomes significant enough to make a warning sound unnecessary (especially at freeway speeds, where there aren’t supposed to be any pedestrians). It’s likely that the artificial Volt sound could shut off at higher speeds.
If you deliberately create a sound, it need only be directed to the front, not in all directions like those annoying loud pipes.
The choice of sound can be optimized to be noticeable at close range without adding too much to the overall noise level: I imagine someting like a “rattle,” not a tone, but rapidly repeating bursts of white or pink noise filling most of the audible high frequency spectrum: “Kk Kk Kk Kk Kk … “ (which has the added benefit of requiring less power and smaller drivers to achieve highly directional results than lower sounds).
A bicycle’s bell gets noticed pretty well from an otherwise quiet vehicle, in part, because it is so quiet.
Of course, the best solution is to have a button to press manually, but this is only as effective as the driver’s willingness to press it. I expect something automatic could soon be mandated.
If this issue gets addressed early, it’s less likely that we’ll have some unacceptable (“osha beeper”) racket imposed upon us.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:37 am)#81 nasaman — thanks for the comment on the initial bump in voltage needed to start charging the battery. That explains the bumpiness Max Bob reported. Excellent information. As you said, now that they can quantify it, they can solve it, probably fairly quickly.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:38 am)Nasaman @72
You are about the only one around here lately that GETS IT!!
“high 30s to low 40s” range in a Malibu! This tells me the one thing I have been railing about for weeks. The VOLT does not need to look like an aero bubble!!
Take the extra range, give the car some more style and design appeal, and GM will have a GOLD mine. And they will have raised the bar for electric car design to levels the Japanese will have a hard time following.
GM can design cars with the best in the world, and it pains me to see the designers cut off at the knees by Cd and drag requirements.
The extra cost for going from 45 mpc to 35 mpc is TINY! About 25 cents worth of electricity? The equivalent situation for gasoline would have been when gas was about 1$ a gallon. Would you care if your car got 25mpg or 35 mpg if gas was a buck a gallon today??? Of course not!!
Then why is the fact that this car must get 40 mpc come hell or high water so important to some?? At the expense of design?? I absolutely don’t get it.
The fact that the drivetrain is getting the range Bob states in Malibu trim tells me that the Volt SHOULD be styled VERY WELL. If it is not, then GM will have wasted an incredible opportunity to show the world what American car designers can do with an electric car.
And they will have left the door wide open for someone else to come in and steal the design limelight. That would be tragic.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:44 am)#97 Jackson
I imagine someting like a “rattle,” not a tone, but rapidly repeating bursts of white or pink noise filling most of the audible high frequency spectrum: “Kk Kk Kk Kk Kk … “
I imagine Usher’s “Yeah!” playing on a constant loop.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXbRBS5Z58
-OR-
for Tag/old school CCR/Fogarty “Born on the Bayou”
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NhxUNezI4l4
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:47 am)#99 MetrologyFirst says “And they will have left the door wide open for someone else to come in and steal the design limelight. That would be tragic.”
Or maybe it is the other way around — the Volt will keep the limelight (it has it now) but Toyota (or Mitsubishi or Nissan) will take advantage of the halo and reap the sales volume, by being there about the same time as the Volt with a more affordable and available car. GM seems to be on the leading edge of the wave, but GM also seems very cautious about volume and actual sales. The others are right behind.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:47 am)Nasaman #72
Thanks for pushing the VUE plug-in. I pushed my wife to test-drive a Mariner Hybrid, but no sale. The trunk space was deemed too small, and the body shape too boxy. In a way I was glad, because I think that better things are around the corner. The VUE has cooler body styling, although I don’t know about the trunk space. BUT please press that we don’t need a V-6. It should be an option, not a standard. We don’t haul boats, only bikes and camping gear. Also, if they would look at the next size up as a hybrid (Outlook) that would be a nice option, and could compete directly with the Highlander Hybrid.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:48 am)Statik #93 …. it didnt take me very long to ‘get your angle’, hoepfully that post helps Omegaman66 “get you” …. well stated sir!
It will take me approximately 3 days to read that Japan article you guys are referencing
Jackson #97 …. I was taught a long long time ago that the most dangerous thing on the road is other people, you must always assume that the other guy doesnt SEE or HEAR you. I know that not everyone drives with this fundamental thought process and I understand why those groups representing the handicapped are doing so…. but here are 2 simple facts;
1) My current car already has a button that makes noise – its located in the center of my steering wheel
2) Accidents do and will continue to happen
GM should not have to worry about this issue for round 1 of the Volt (IMO)
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:52 am)#87 JAK says: “For the design – make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents (I’m 30)…”
The Volt is supposed to be a mainstream car for the masses, not a niche car for 30 and under.
There are lots of reasons people will want the Volt. More people are beginning to understand the link between foreign oil and terrorism. Global warming is causing more severe hurricanes, tornadoes, and flooding. Gas prices are skyrocketing. So I don’t think the Volt is limited to a particular age demographic.
For many people, a futuristic user interface is an instant turn-off.
Again, for people like you, I suggest a touch screen with lots of options as an optional GPS type console. That way, the rest of us won’t have to be subjected to it.
As an aside, I have lots of high tech gadgets like you speak of, but in car, I think scrolling through touch screen menus while driving is a recipe for disaster. This is exactly why they outlawed cell phones in cars.
GM, please keep the instrumentation simple!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:52 am)Jackson #97
Agree with all. It is also a safety issue for drivers/passengers. Common wildlife (e.g. turkey, deer) can do tremendous damage to an automobile, and even cause fatalities. A silent-running car could multiply the number of accidents.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (9:53 am)#86 RB
Here’s the scenario:
You’re at home and an important call comes in on your cell phone. You pick up and your boss asks you if you can participate in a conference call going on related to the project you’ve been working on the last few months. You say, “Absolutely” and conversing begins. After a minute, you hear a tone on the phone indicating a low battery charge. You look on your desk and find the charger plug. You plug in and breathe a sigh as the phone continues to work.
As I’ve been told, the Volt ICE will not power the electric motor. The ICE will send a charge to the battery when the battery reaches 30% of its charge. The ICE’s purpose is not to fully charge the battery, but to maintain it at 30%.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (10:06 am)#93 statik says: “I don’t care about automakers at all. They have all been building huge, irresponsible, polluting behemoths for decades.”
I agree. GM’s bean counters don’t give a crap about me, so why should I be loyal to them? Frankly, I find it hard to understand loyalty to a brand to begin with. Capitalism, free-market competition, those are things I can understand.
And if anybody wonders, I’m here because I also want a car that runs on electricity. This is a Volt fan site, not a GM fan site. I’m pretty sure there are many others on this site who are not big fans of GM.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (10:10 am)#106 Nelson — Nice analogy. I agree that the battery-to-ICE transition should work as you said. Maybe a little disagreement is what happens when the ICE/generator is running — it seems likely that some current will flow directly from the generator to the motor, without charging the battery as an intermediate step, though charging the battery may be happening at the same time.
In the analogy, it is true that sometimes one does hear a crackle or two when the charger is first plugged in. In the Volt, as nasaman said, a little voltage bump may be needed to get the battery into charge rather than discharge mode. Then mechanically ICEs may take a few seconds to stablize under load, and as Dave G noted at #80, the situation is more complicated if the car is accelerating as the transition occurs. So things are not quite as simple as they first appear.
Still, I think we are all agreed that these transient events are going to get smoothed out. They are not fundamental obstacles.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (10:13 am)RB @ 101
Contrary to a lot of posts here, I believe “the masses” do care what their cars look like. They always have. It’s the zealots and activists that don’t care. The Prius is an outlier. It provided something (high mileage) that alot of people needed, at the right time, with no competition. I personally know 4 people who bought the Prius even though, to a person, they think it is”butt-ugly”. This is the opening for the Volt.
If GM comes along with a drop-dead beautifully styled Volt, at a good price, the other manufacturers will have their work to do. They have not demonstrated the ability to design an attractive electric car. When there is choice in this segment, the well styled cars will win. They almost always historically do. Particularly when the fuel cost impact is severely reduced. “Mileage (mpg,mpc)” will be much less important in the future. See post #99.
I do not fear competition for the Volt. I fear for an ugly, aerobubble Volt.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (10:15 am)Ahhh nuts my edit didn’t come up. Anyway if you read the whole link it’s interesting. Shows different engine configurations beyond just tuning.
What ever is reliable, cost effective and mass production friendly will go in.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (10:30 am)Dave G, JAK, et. al.,
>> GM, please keep the instrumentation simple
I agree that this would keep the instrumentation costs down, and if well designed, that may even make the vehicle simpler to use/drive.
However there is no reason there couldn’t be an optional instrumentation package that is more advanced, with more functions, providing more automation, charge reminders, etc. Heck, you see it now in cars that come with-or-without an advanced navigation system.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (10:34 am)104. Dave G.,
>> This is exactly why they outlawed cell phones in cars.
Oh, don’t I wish! Don’t know where you are, but here in Wisconsin USA, it’s still legal. Horribly irresponsible in many cases (I drive defensively and deal with avoiding idiot cellphone-yappers every day on the freeway), but still legal.
I say this as a semi-libertarian who loves freedom, but for pete’s sake, you can’t yell “fire” in a movie theater, either, and that doesn’t erode the right to free speech.
EDIT: Sorry! I realize this post was pretty off-topic.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (10:43 am)Should GM outsource manufacturing of the power module to some one who knows better about electricity generation packs like they have done with battery. It is suprisingly late even to think about such issue. There are lot of backup power generator manufacturers.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:00 am)I think the Chevy Volt when released will be closer to a 60 mile range.
I think Chevy is actually downplaying their goal. I think the 20 mile range is a sawhorse tossed in front of Toyota. Who’s technology would allow such a range in 2010. So the idea would be to let Toyota think that 40 is the goal, and is doable, but 20 will be likely for the affordable model. Than release the Volt at 60 miles and maybe a cheaper one at 30 miles.
If the current mule is high 30’s low 40’s. Even with hilly terrain. Give a year of design refinements + battery improvements. Cost reductions of large scale production. And I think a 60+ miler is not out of the question as the actually released goal.
Toyota would meander along release their new Prius with a 20 mile electric range and find themselves competing against a 60 mile range.
Right now if I was GM, I would NOT be closing any of my factories. I would be re-tooling. Buying up a solar cell manufacturer and building solar cells at cost. Then selling them at cost with every Volt. And offering GM financing for the solar cells.
OMG what a killing. “I went in to buy a Chevy Volt for $25,000. I spent $70,000.” *insert Wife screaming in the background*
But sweetie, here’s the good news, I did buy the Volt – and not the Vette. But I also bought solar panels, and we won’t have to pay any more electric bills or gas bills.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:06 am)#113.
Making a generator is one thing. Making one with emissions is a whole different ball game. I don’t know of any company with more engine building experience or units built than GM. I doubt it will be any drama and most likely the easiest part of the build. Spinning a coil of wire by magnets is not tough. they have been doing it in alternators at GM for about 100 years.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:27 am)#104 Dave –
I see your point about making it simple and not adding to driver distraction. But how about at least having an active digital display instead of analog instruments. Many cars already have a digital speedometer. If it were customizable, they could lock the display unless the car was in park, like some front seat DVD players have now.
Just a thought, but it would also cut down on control wiring and systems, then all that would be there is a computer display. Its simplifying the design. I’m not an engineer, but it seems like it would be easier to have all the data go to a computer display through one processor then having 10 different gauges, each with their own cable and control, and each with the ability to malfunction.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:34 am)99. MetrologyFirst,
The cost of going from 35 mpc to 45 mpc is not just the cost of the electricity. You need a much larger battery to get that range as well. But perhaps $3,000 extra for the battery + plus the extra cost of the fancier pieces + the electricity per charge is worth a better looking car.
On another note, recent speculation on Honda’s new small hybrid is that it will be available first half of 2009, be less expensive than the Prius, look like the FCX, and be in the mid-50s MPG. 100,000 units in the US alone for 2009.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:36 am)With my vehicle their are so many functions that can be controlled through the navigation screen or the screen in the instrument pod. But the software locks you out unless your in park. Except Navigation and a few other basic functions for front and rear climate etc.
They should make it as fun as possible with as many features as possible. Just no changes while vehicle in motion.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:40 am)NOTE FOR BOB:
There is a lot of worry by some about how apartment/condo dwellers would recharge their Volt (should they buy one.) It is a reasonable concern. One solution is for GM to help jump start the Plug-In infrastructure. This might come about in the form of a JV with a large franchise like a convenient store, parking lot owner or mall management group. “Quick Charge” stations designed to accept credit/debit swipes would let EV owners charge in the absence of their own extension cord.
Two things are also important: the Volt power monitor should tell the owner how many kWh are needed for average mileage, e.g. “For 20 miles all-electric driving you will need 4kWh of energy.” The owner can then dial this number into the charge station, pay the fare, and return in a couple hours to a fully charged vehicle.
Of course if you work at a forward thinking company there will be charge stations installed in xx number of parking spaces. Some entrepreneur will do a big business in packaging charge station installations. GM can alleviate apartment dweller concerns by encouraging some level of public charge station construction and jump start alternative energy tycoons into competition.
Finally, a word of congratulations to GM’s JV with cellulosic ethanol makers. The Coskata project shows real leadership in alternative energy systems. The recent H2 station announce is also a leading position. Next might be some form of municipal solar charge station in the southern sun belt. This would leverage new thin-film PV technology and Li-Io storage so that a charge cycle could be had with near zero emissions. The municipality can require a fee for the service, which after amortization of costs can be a new revenue stream to the city. The “fuel” of course will be sunlight, which by some great source of wisdom, we have been given for free.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:48 am)#103 Murray says: “My current car already has a button that makes noise – its located in the center of my steering wheel”
The problem is that this button is momentary. You don’t leave it on when you’re driving through residential neighborhoods (at least I hope you don’t). Kids on bikes don’t advertise when they will dart in front of you. You need some sort of constant noise enabled by a switch you can leave on.
My main concern isn’t safety. My main concern is lawyers. If GM loses a big law suit because the Volt is too quiet, then:
1) GM would suspend Volt production
2) People would be afraid the Volt isn’t safe to drive
3) Volt sales would plummet
In my mind, the easiest solution is for GM to add a noise maker that can be enabled by a switch on the dash. If the driver forgets to turn this on and hits a kid on a bike, then it’s the driver’s fault. The lawyers would be forced to go after the driver, and this would keep them away GM’s deep pockets.
#83 Rashiid Amul says: “I don’t want noise. There is too much noise already. I want peace and quiet.”
I don’t want noise either, but I also don’t want Volt production to be suspended due to some law suit. So while the switch enabled noise maker is important to have, I personally would leave the switch always off.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:52 am)#119 Artimus — Good points on the need for recharge for apts, etc. Here in the Carolinas, it is reported in the newpapers that anticipating plug-in cars Duke energy (the electric utility for much of the area) has set up a fund to pay for the installation of electric outlets for such purposes. These outlets will no doubt be metered. I’m not sure if the bills will go to the property owner, or perhaps use some kind of individualized charge-card system.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:52 am)#97 Jackson. Sorry. I live in the woods. Hardly any traffic, blind people or kids. I want silence. No noise whatsoever.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:55 am)#120 Dave G — some earlier safety studies envisioned a periodic chime that could be switched on in residential areas, not loud or objectionable but enough to hear an audible “here I am.” It was pictured as under driver control, something that could be done that was not as abrasive as the normal horn. Railroad train engineers have this kind of 2-level sound system, the big “get out of my way” horn, but then also the bell that rings periodically when moving slowly in populated areas or stations.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (11:57 am)Well this is all getting pretty overwhelming, but just to show I’m trying to pay attention, let me offer the following:
#30 Grizzly:
Speaking as a certified “EV Evangelical So. Ca. wacko”, I can stand a few bumps out of the driveline if they just get the !@#$% car to the public. You ought to hear the auto trans in our 2006 1500 clang when you drop it into gear from neutral. They have had over 20 years to refine these 700R4 derivatives and it still jerks. We gotta get some product in the showrooms man.
44 Rashiid Amul & # 47 nasaman:
Agreed. Right on point, as always.
#49 Dave G:
Absolutely right, IMHO:
#52 M1EK:
We haven’t been played for suckers. We just want GM to survive and go forward, even if it’s in spite of themselves. If they fail, at least we will be able to say that we, by God, did whatever we could
#55 RB:
I would just say that claiming to be green while carrying on with business as usual doesn’t get it any more. The public is not falling for that any longer, nor is the stock market if you follow Statik’s analyses. If GM actually thinks that they are going to prolong the inevitable by putting up some sort of Potemkin, vaporware, “green” car, they are in for a rude shock. I, for one, believe that they know that.
#70 Dave G & #94 Brad G (any relation?):
Agreed. Somebody else mentioned the little button in the middle of the steering wheel. Hello? I used to have a 1961 Alfa Romeo that had a little toggle switch for softer or louder horn. Come to think of it somebody (Renault?) had an ad saying “City horn, country horn”.
#78 Statik:
IS IT TRUE????????? Statik is the screen name of Dick Cheny? Are you posting from the undisclosed secure location?
Great comments all. This blog is getting so busy it’s hard to find time to read them all. My humble apologies to everybody I missed.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:00 pm)#119 Artimus,
Apartment and Condo parking lots will have card or key based charging ports, but not until plug-ins like the Volt get some traction in the market. When Volt sales hit 100,000, then these types of charging ports will begin to appear.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:00 pm)101 RB, says, “…… the Volt will keep the limelight (it has it now) but Toyota (or Mitsubishi or Nissan) will take advantage of the halo and reap the sales volume, by being there about the same time as the Volt with a more affordable and available car. GM seems to be on the leading edge of the wave, but GM also seems very cautious about volume and actual sales. The others are right behind”
Agreed. Toyota is on the offense and won’t slow down for anyone.
They are right on GM’s heals. GM is playing defense but seriously needs to hit the ground running. Price the car for the masses. Make lots of them and make them extremely reliable. Toyota will not be shy in promoting and selling their plugin Prius. GM needs to jump up and down and scream to everyone, “Here is our EV. Anyone can buy it! It is green. It gets 50 MPG after the first 40 miles. It is American made and extremely well engineered.”
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:02 pm)Vincent
Emissions are even stricter for backup power generators. The GM normally dealing with Otto cycle engines. Here they can use what ever cycle they want. It depends more on electrical architecture and it is different they been doing before.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:05 pm)#122 Rashiid Amul:
Amen. Non-issue. Next case.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:07 pm)#122 Rashiid Amul,
I don’t want noise either, but I also don’t want Volt production to be suspended due to some law suit. So while a switch enabled noise maker is important to have, I personally would leave the switch always off.
#123 RB,
I think something that resembled engine noise would be best. Any other noise could be misconstrued for something else.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:08 pm)#124 noel — good comments. I think GM’s attitude toward the Volt is evolving. I think the first approval was just for image, and that outlook may still be true for the majority of people at GM, a huge corporation that remains mostly focused on building ICE vehicles.
However, because of the unexpected level of interest from outsiders such as ourselves, and mainly because of interest from the wider world-wide public due to rising gas prices, I think some people at GM are moving their thinking toward real electric cars in significant volumes. But the latter vehicles may be the 2nd generation electrics, not the Volt40.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:14 pm)An Open Letter from the OPEC Oil Ministers to the America People:
THANK YOU AMERICA for being such a cooperative adversary. We publish this letter before the world to prove that your infidel ways prevent you from making change.
As you know, the members of OPEC have been at economic war with you since the 1970s. Some of the OPEC Ministers thought that the 1970’s oil embargo was a bad first move on OPEC’s part in that it might result in America deciding to seek an alternative energy source. The Brazilians were smart enough to seek their own alternative sources of energy as a result of the 1970s oil embargo but we should have known that we could count on the Americans to keep us in business. You are so arrogant you haven’t even recognized your own stupidity!
OPEC is extracting on a net basis $700 billion/year out of your American economy. This means you are transferring to OPEC two billion dollars of American economic equity each day; Cha Ching! You will be happy to know we have been accumulating shares in your banks, real estate, and publicly held companies. Your funny man President Bush wants to further speed this transfer of wealth; he is begging us to sell you even more oil! Allah does have a sense of humor! Now that you have transferred a large potion of your national wealth to us, we are most generous to lend you back some of those dollars (with interest of course). We are now able to also manipulate your markets, currency, and economies to our benefit. We will both destroy you and own you! Praise Allah!
Thank you for being too stupid to develop your American 200+ year supply of oil shale and tar sands, to drill in Florida, and to drill in Alaska. Thank you for over regulating every segment of your energy industry and thus delaying, by decades, the development of alternate fuel technologies. We thank all the American lobbyists and American politicians for keeping things as they are even though it’s destroying America. Most of all, thank you for not developing a comprehensive nuclear electric generation infrastructure like the French have done; that would have seriously impacted our ability to destroy you.
We thank the American Congress for implementing the corn ethanol program. How brilliant! You are too stupid to manufacture economically viable sugar cane based ethanol like the Brazilians have done. Instead you use corn which has less than ¼ the energy conversion density as sugar cane. This is a gift from Allah, praise his name! We never would have thought of this one! Have American farmers use more energy to create less energy, and simultaneously drive American food prices through the roof.
Some of you Americans think you can say goodbye to OPEC by developing electric cars. How very funny! It will take you over 30 years to convert your fleet of cars to electric at a scale that has any impact on your reliance in OPEC. You stupid American infidels have no sense of urgency with regards to pursuing American energy independence (especially if it requires any individual sacrifice) and OPEC can count on the American politicians of both parties to talk a good game but not put in place any meaningful policies to accelerate any transition to electric cars. That will give OPEC over 30 more years to suck America dry. You will be broke after 30 more years!
You have more missiles, bombs, and technology; but we have oil and Allah
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:15 pm)“I imagine Usher’s “Yeah!” playing on a constant loop.
-OR-
for Tag/old school CCR/Fogarty “Born on the Bayou”
Old and busted: downloading “ringtones.”
New Hotness: downloadting “cartones”
/rushing to patent office.
(Or you could, you know, just play … Statik –?)
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:27 pm)Couple things.
. This could definitely be so, I would suspect that they may have either eliminated the flywheel or reduced it’s size to reduce weight since there is no clutch – they just directly connected the ICE to the generator. Honda’s IMA does a similar trick, the electric motor replaces the flywheel. But it’s a lot lighter than a flywheel would have been, so they actually use the electric motor as a dynamic flywheel. They absorb an electric pulse on the power strokes and provide an electric pulse to aid the exhaust strokes. That plus dynamic dampening engine mounting brackets did the trick. But the IMA is a very small electric motor, I’d imagine you wouldn’t need the dynamic dampening brackets if you had a much larger motor capable of dampening more vibration itself.
For ‘rough’ it is unclear what kind of ‘rough’ness he’s talking about. I suspect for a ‘car guy’ like Bob, ‘rough’ is a euphamism for “vibrates like heck” (Which itself is a euphamism for what Bob probably would have said
As for coasting with an electric motor, I think that there could be such a mode with the induction motor. If you let the magnetic fields disapate, you should be left with just a big metal spindle rotating freely. But that would have to be under the control of the electronics.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:31 pm)Dave G, #120 says, “I don’t want noise either, but I also don’t want Volt production to be suspended due to some law suit. So while the switch enabled noise maker is important to have, I personally would leave the switch always off.”
Although it doesn’t make me feel good, I think you are correct with this argument.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:35 pm)Haiku for Statik
Sharp eyed engineer
Normally you see it all
Forgot regen brakes
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:40 pm)GM, customizable displays would be nice!
Car silent, bikes silent. Car got horn, bike got horn/bell. Both parties use them, thanks!
Hey OPEC #131, If you crush/destroy America is that not going to kill that 700 billion a year cash flow? Boy, that’s gotta hurt!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:46 pm)#126 Rashiid Amul:
Right again. To me, the key is becoming “Make lots of them….” Not to repeat my comment on the thread below, but Honda had 50,000 on a waiting list for the first 500 FCXs. The FCX is a lot less practical and more difficult to fuel car than a Volt, IMHO. It just shows the huge pent up demand for such vehicles. Even I am not going to wait around forever for availability of the Volt. As we have been saying from the beginning, if GM doesn’t get to the market first, with serious volume, T, H, M, N, etc., aka japan, Inc., will leaved them for dead again. Maybe for good this time.
#130 RB:
Alas, I fear that you are right. It won’t be good enough, however. See above.
#131 From OPEC (fiction?):
Alas, not fiction, but God’s honest truth. As my old Daddy used to say, “It’s too true to be funny.”
I and others keep telling GM to “Innovate or die.” I guess it’s true for all of us, come to that.
You guys are great. Blog On!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (12:57 pm)I think noise is not an issue. What noise level is enough or too high or low – big question. Should be new rules addopted. Otherwise law suites make no sence. Does tires are not making any noise?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:10 pm)#138 Darius says: “What noise level is enough or too high or low – big question.”
This one’s easy. Just measure the noise from existing gas engine cars and take an average. Then have the Volt emit the same average amount of noise when the driver decides to switch it on (if ever).
As for tire noise, this is plenty at high speeds but not enough at, say, 30 mph on a residential street.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:11 pm)97 Jackson, 100 Statik, 103 Murray, 120 Dave G, et al……..
Re: Volt is so quiet it’s dangerous to people, animals:
GM developed an IR sensor that clearly depicted humans & animals on a heads-up driver’s display several years ago. Instead, this IR sensor could be used to trigger a gentle, non-offensive (but highly audible) “ding—ding—ding” sound that repeated as long as its forward-looking IR sensor detected person(s) or animal(s) ahead.
The sound itself could be very similar to that produced by a percussionist’s “triangle” in an orchestra —which is high-pitched and unique enough it can easily be heard even during very loud orchestral passages (therefore, easily heard through loud highway or city noises). Importantly, a triangle’s “ding” is universally considered to be a “gentle” and “pleasant” sound in spite its high level of audibility. However, a dash-mounted switch could temporarily disable it when the driver so desired, but after a few minutes it should automatically default to an “active sensing” mode.
We now return to this thread’s topic (whatever that was)
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:17 pm)Dave G
Why not make a law suit on most silent ICE car when calculating average?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:25 pm)I think it would be better to develop automatic braking system instead of noise increase. On other hand EV motor and transmission is not absolutely silent. It would be silent at crossroads but not at motion and especialy when braking. I saw electrical buses (trams with rubber tires). They are not silent at all.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:35 pm)How about a cool looking 2 seater sports version. Convertible would be nice also.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:42 pm)No car is absolutely quiet…Up here in Central Alberta, Canada, there are enough pot holes/ expansion breaks, gravel and grit on the roads that just the tire noise would be enough to alert anyone (blind or not) that you are coming… this should be a non issue.. If you want to take it further…. how are you going to alert a deaf person looking the other way ??
it is a NON ISSUE…
Ray.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:44 pm)Regarding the concept of metered parking stalls where you can swipe your credit card, go to work or shopping, and come back to a charged up EV ready to go… uh, that’s a bit naive, at best. Unattended or unmonitored charge-ups will not work in the US.
We live in a country where people actually sit around writing computer viruses to dispense to the masses, just because they get their kicks by watching other people suffer and getting the name of their virus published on CNN.
What’s to prevent the guy in the stall next to you from grabbing your charge cord once you walk away, and plugging it into his own EV? Ok, so the charging company gets wise and builds in a failsafe method of shutting down the credit card billing mechanism once the cord is unplugged from the original car. Then what do you do about all the hoodlums that get a kick out of running around the neighborhood unplugging EVERYONE’s EV when they’re not looking?
I work for a 4-service utility. We’ve seen it all here. Homeless guys gettin fried to a french fry in the middle of the night trying to steal $20 worth of copper wire from an underground 34.5 kV electric vault. Kids dumping boulders in sewer manholes, just to watch the water backup, only to find out the next day that the cops are now looking for them because they caused $18 million dollars worth of raw sewage damage to flooded basements.
EVs are targeted at the urban dweller, by definition (less than a 40 mile commute). Well, guess what, urban areas have the highest percentage of these dirtbags who would do this kind of stuff. New York, LA, Atlanta, Denver, D.C., Detroit…, real scatholes. Rest assured, the American public will drag down the success of the EV long before GM does.
and just wait til the youth of America finds out how big of an explosion they can create by puncturing a Li-ion battery…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ayuFBDrSg
No doubt, MythBusters will teach them proper hooligan ways, and how to “Go Big”.
I want an electric car just as much as the next guy. But a lot of new and never before thought of social disorders will be sure to fall out of the woodwork as a result… This is, after all, America. Ugh, the home of reality TV (gag).
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:46 pm)#83 Rashiid
I’m with you: I want, no, I NEED peace and quiet!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:46 pm)RE: the “scream along in total silence” issue
I see the law suit angle…lawyers can just mess anything up, huh?
I guess I just think there should be higher priorities on the ‘To Do’ list to get this thing done.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:50 pm)#140 nasaman,
Personally, I don’t really care what sound it makes as long as:
1) It prevents law suits against the Volt and GM
2) I can configure it to never come on
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Jun 17th, 2008 (1:52 pm)#141 Darius says: “Why not make a law suit on most silent ICE car when calculating average?”
There are lots of scumbag lawyers. Don’t put it past them.
What’s amazing to me is that so many big companies settle these law suits out of court. I guess they figure a payoff is better than taking a chance, but don’t they realize they are just encouraging the next lawsuit?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:08 pm)Volt quietness/noise – There has been a lot of discussion about the Volt and other electric cars being too quiet. After some thought, I think that there should be some sort of noise generator. It should be automatically activated when the car is started – think backing out of garage while children are playing outside. Most neighborhood speed limits are set at 20-25 mph, so when car is operating at or below these speeds, the noise would be there. When cruising on the boulevard or interstate, the noise should automatically turn off. But there should also be a “defeat” switch for those times you wish to make a silent approach.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:10 pm)Move over, Statik, we have a new winner:
eurobiker.
On the one hand, I know that much of what you say is true (#145). However, this is not anything substantially different from the same sort of behavior perpetrated on anything within reach by this kind of person.
By your logic, though, nothing positive can ever be attempted, or be successful, no matter what: so why try? It reminds me of the supposedly intractible “complexity problem.”
As a typical Volt blog tecchie, I could observe that “this is not a technology problem.”
Much of what has been said about what America can do, if it wants to badly enough, and is willing to endure sacrifice, should also be placed against this kind of increasing moral/societal disintegration (and is really not within the scope of this site).
From a technical standpoint, high-speed recharging from stored energy could take place while the car owner waits; and I’m sure reasonable security issues can be addressed by the folks at GM.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:11 pm)I hear you eurobiker #145 …
You bring up some valid concerns, although I would like to think most of the issues with charging stations could be overcome. I would hope there is already tangilble solutions on whichever innovative company is already working on said charging stations….maybe I’m being naive? color my guilty.
There will always be issues with “dirtbags” and the “youth of America” finding ways to screw with things…. but to make a statement that….
“the American public will drag down the success of the EV long before GM does.”
…. is a bit over the top in this readers opinion.
These “hoodlums” just need to have better parenting !!
(now there’s a naive statement for you)
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:12 pm)#145 eurobiker,
I’m a bit more optimistic. The first plug-in charging ports will appear at apartments, condos, and office buildings. I’d wager these will be mechanical key based systems so as to work in all weather. Security cameras should help a lot here. As more sophisticated charging ports emerge, better counter measures will go with it.
As for Li/Ion explosions, the Volt doesn’t use these types of batteries. Yes, it’s Li/Ion, but a different chemistry. For example, the “Killacycle” racing motorcycle uses A123 batteries. The owner was showing off for the press recently and took off by accident, crashing into a Minivan. The battery pack was punctured. No explosion. Go to YouTube and search for “killacycle crash” for details.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:32 pm)Some people are just glass half-empty types. Ignore them and move on. Life includes risk. Get over it.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:39 pm)#145 eurobiker:
Does that mean you ride an MV Agusta?
I don’t think that electric cars will have any monopoly on “fuel” theft issues.
Recently in LA there has been a rash of thieves drilling holes in cars gas tanks with cordless drills to drain out the gas. Evidently you can’t get a siphon hose past the check valve in the filler. Steal $50 of gas, ruin an $800 (with labor to R&I) gas tank.
In this AM’s paper there is a report of thieves stealing $20,000 of diesel fuel out of a local gas station last night.
Man, I am afraid to leave my car while it is filling up to go in and get a coffee at the self serve gas station. At $4.50/gal, I can just see someone taking the nozzle out of my tank and sticking it in theirs.
As Bush I so famously said, “There is no monopoly on this sleaze factor.”
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Jun 17th, 2008 (2:43 pm)Statik@93
You say you give credit where credit is due, but as memory serves you said one positive thing about GM and took THAT back!
So GM gets no credit for even attempting the Volt project.l I get it.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (3:18 pm)# 74 Joe
Wow! What’s the chance that our leaders would read the article and care about us.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (3:36 pm)Still haven’t realized that the Volt is just another GM engineering-by-press-release vaporware?
Wake up!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (3:58 pm)156 Tag
“You say you give credit where credit is due, but as memory serves you said one positive thing about GM and took THAT back!
So GM gets no credit for even attempting the Volt project.l I get it.”
They got credit when they started it, of course there was no site at the time to record my feelings for all-time. Also, they got me to come here and post (much to everyone’s enjoyment….I’m sure). Most importantly, and the only thing that matters, they got me to sign my name to a waiting list. So thats a nod of approval.
I’ve not asked for my name to be recended or anything on the wait list. If that day comes, there will probably be great rejoicing, because that is the day I no longer post anymore, hehe. I don’t post just to be a ‘horse’s patoot,’ I post because I care, it just doesn’t always come through, thats my fault.
It’s true there has been no praise since then. (Good memory on the one time I did give it for meeting a deadline on choosing a battery supplier, but that was a red herring so I did take it back)
Of course, generally praise comes on the back of success, or going above and beyond expectations. I honestly feel GM has done nothing but back peddle on deadlines, specs and price since they day they announced they were going to built it.
Let me ask you a serious question Tag. Are you happy with the direction of the Volt the last year?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:11 pm)Well what a bad evening (for me here in Western Europe) since I read Eurobiker’s post #145, is it that bad in the downtowns of the US ?
I think that imagination, creativity and technology may overcome a lot of the difficulties this Eurobiker was pointing out.
Eurobiker please, as Dave G said ,be positive, employ those people to ensure that the recharge in the center of town in public places is done correctly.
For instance, new small businesses could be created employing those people and supplying (quick) recharge capacities AND protecting the cord and your vehicle.
I have been in center Kinshsha (Democratic republic of Cong) with a correct car. If as a withe European you leave your car unattended then you ‘ll have problems, so it is simple, pay the street people a little money to “protect ” your car and you will find it like you left it and the street people even thank you,
Eurobiker, be creative and open to less lucky people. …
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:13 pm)#135 Biodieseljeep
“Haiku for Statik
Sharp eyed engineer
Normally you see it all
Forgot regen brakes”
Thats a nice touch, I’ve always thought there was not enough poetry on this site. Never really considered the impact of the regen to tell you the truth. A total miss by me, I can happy man up to that.
I wonder how much real juice you get out of regen braking in the city? Might be good for a couple miles…good catch anyway. I know the highway would certainly wouldn’t net the same.
I never really put together that Lutz’s Mailibu ‘mule’ didn’t have it. I checked up on it, and your right, it doesn’t. There are several different ‘mules,’ but no overlapping battery/regens yet…which seems kind of puzzling, as you would think that would be a fairly important part of the battery testing.
“There are battery cars, ride and handling units, ones for propulsion systems, brakes, and steering”
So actually, we don’t really have a mule at all, we have a system test car. Here is the quote (again) on it:
“Next up are the true mule vehicles, or ARM’s, and are whole vehicles with all of the systems coming together. They contain a lot of hand built parts, but are “design intent”. Those will arrive at the end of 2008″
I like the part about the “true mules” E-flex definition.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:17 pm)Statik,
“True mule” : This is a nice expression, I think I’m myself a “true mule” for a lot of people beginning with my chrildren and my wife.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:17 pm)KEEP IT UNDER $30,000!!!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:23 pm)As far as charging it goes I don’t see why they can’t have a locking pronged design where the person just locks in their charge cord to the vehicle the sets their cord into the power station, flidown a protective cover and that starts the charging. That way the only way to remove it is to physically cut the cable. Sure, hoodlums could do that but there’s a lot more damaging things they’d probably do before that.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:42 pm)#127 Darius,
Thanks. I was not aware. The several large firms I worked for all had large Diesel generators. Looked like a modern tractor trailer engine.
Just a straight pipe to a muffler. No emissions at all. Maybe thats just New York?
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:44 pm)Just finished doing a little digging on regenerative breaking. Figured the Hybrid Synery Website would be the most simlar in statistical comparision.
“…Prius as an example, the system can save the energy equivalent of 1ℓ (.25 gallons) of gas/petrol while running in city traffic for 100 km (60 miles).” According to the EPA, the Prius is rated at 46MPG. So theoretically, that works out to be about 7.9 miles of range. Efficiency is about a fourth of that in highway driving, or 2 miles of range. I’m actaully very surprised at the efficiency they achieve.
http://www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/regenerative_braking.html
I guess the question is, what is the split on range for the Volt for city/highway before regen is tacked on? Again going by EPA standards and ‘Synergy Drive comparables), it looks to add about 4 miles to the overall range number.
Doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic, I just thought it was interesting…we really have discussed very little, if anything, about the regen brakes here.
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Jun 17th, 2008 (4:53 pm)Gentlemen, interesting conversation. As a physicist and EE, I can tell you that this approach has the best chance of changing the world. Bio-fuels just use more oil to produce, and the likelyhood of improvements there are slim. Hydrogen can be considered as a battery, but the losses to create hydrogen from electricity are enormous. Most Hydrogen today comes from LNG.
So, I am behind GM on this 100%, I will buy the car, and I would like to work on this if they need any help!
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Jun 17th, 2008 (5:07 pm)____________________________________________________
#131 From OPEC (fiction?) -
My thoughts:
One barrel of oil = 42 gallons. At $140/barrel, a gallon of oil = $3.33 dollars; somewhere between the cost of bottled water and Pepsi. OPEC is allowing oil to be sold at a stupidly low price considering that oil is a forever finite available commodity per geographic location and that oil is the only real commercial commodity that the OPEC countries have to barter with. The joke is on OPEC not America.
My thanks to the GM-VOLT team for doing their part on taking America to energy independence before OPEC realizes we Americans are stealing their oil. Hit it as hard as you can guys! We are all behind you.
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