Lutz: Almost No Reasonable Doubt Chevy Volt Will Work as Planned
Reuters just published a report outlining an interview with Bob Lutz today on the Chevy Volt.
GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz continued to exude confidence that the Chevy Volt engineering should work out as planned, with a battery supplier to be named shortly.
Lutz said “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
He also confirmed the early Volt prototypes were achieving the electric range GM had hoped for, stating “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything”
Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”
Finally he took a shot at Toyota’s apparent recent turnaround in attitude toward lithium-ion batteries declaring “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk, that lithium ion batteries were prone to explode and that we were putting our customers at risk and that they would stay with the tried and true. When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
Source (Reuters)
Popularity: 7%
Related posts:
- Bob Lutz Admits Battery Advantage over Toyota
- Bob Lutz Discusses Cost of Producing the Chevy Volt
- Bob Lutz on Chevy Volt Battery Tests, Cold Starts, and Use of OnStar
- Mitsubishi Chairman Yorihiko Kojima Drives an i-MiEV to Work Everyday
- More Bob Lutz Volt Q & A
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June 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Great to hear…keep up the good work GM!!
June 16th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Still talking about the battery contract too. That’s obviously on their minds.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I wonder if they will average around 45 miles after better calibration of the power system, better aero body and the proper drive train? Sounds like they will if they can exceed 40 right now.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
HAH!
“When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
So true…so true….
Hope we will see better than low 30s, high 40s when it the VOLT is new. It was supposed to be that at end of life.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Hey Bob,
You gave us the Viper GTS….a modern classic.
The Z06 and ZR1 Vette. Be sure to throw your style and attitude in the Volt! We car guys like it!!!
June 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Bob lutz is so funny and correct on toyota!
June 16th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I love it. GM would be nowhere without a guy like Bob. There are few of them left. Nobody goes to the wall like he does. Bob PLEASE stand tall and tell it as you see it. I do not want to hear it from an adman.
Take Care
Arch
June 16th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Hey Kent, I think that the 45 miles you’re thinking are within the realm of reason. After all the test mules are running with a roughed-in calibration and a heavier, less aerodynamic body. I feel that if they can hit the benchmarks with the mule, then it shouldn’t be too much of a problem. And yes, RB, you’re more than likely very much correct. That contract will bug the crap out of them for a while. But if they are serious about a 20 mile version or another small E-Flex hybrids then it might help to keep the other battery contractor on standby.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
It seems like a lot of Prius and Toyota supporters have a grudge against GM and their anger is more to do with their anger at the US automakers than actual Volt capabilities. I’d like to see a successful Volt if only to help decrease the smug levels.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Given that both battery companies have declared their intention to build the batteries in the USA, 29 months is not long to get a plant up and running from scratch.
So when can Lyle have his ride BOB?
June 16th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
By 2010, there will be many players in this game. The ones who can attract the biggest crowd will sell more. Similiar to the iPhone that rocked the cellular industry. It has a cult-like following, people who don’t even like gadgets want one. This kind of marketing needs to happen to the Volt. I don’t see GM spending and ad money yet. Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country. Its a bird…a plane…no it’s the new Volt, coming soon to a town near you, along with other members of the Volt like the SuperVolt, miniVolt, MEGAVolt, MicroVolt. Of course, if the sales pitch fails it could be quite revolting.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Off topic. Honda has begun the first commercial production ever of a hydrogen fuel cell-powered car , will be on lease !
http://news.cnet.com/planetary-gear/?categoryId=2040
June 16th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
That is definelty true, the way it is given to the public and then subsequently percieved is extremely important.
O, and now that we bring it up, the Volt’s offspring of e-rev vehicles will be interesting to see when they start being announced after the Volt is soundly in the game. Imagine, a whole vehicle line-up based on the Volt. Little economy cars and big SUV e-rev vehicles……honestly, who, or what could compete with that.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
I think all these choices are a great idea. I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design. I’ll be in the market for 2 cars around the time this comes out, and I’d love to know a wagon version is in the makes. Just a thought. Maybe they can design the seats and doors with innovation to make it work in a similar way as a sedan. However, it’s great to move stuff and people around in a wagon…..a cool wagon. Just a thought, GM.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Nice shot, Bob - Take that, Toyota !
However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob. You have just insulted the honor of the Toyota Corporation - and you know how the Japanese uphold honor. Now, they will work twice as fast, twice as hard, to make the Prius better than the Volt, just so they don’t “lose face”.
Don’t look behind you, Bob - there might be a Toyota there. Run with this project like the devil himself is behind you. And I’m glad you’re putting the Volt 40 first. You can do it - the only one who can stop you, is you.
#14 tomnatcaleb - Think Volt HHR. In candy apple red - ooooooh, red.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
GM needs to start lining up sexy celebs to be seen
- in a Chevy Volt
- on a Chevy Volt
- near a Chevy Volt
- talking about a Chevy Volt
- dreaming about a Chevy Volt
- sleeping in a Chevy Volt
- buying a Chevy Volt
and yes, DRIVING A CHEVY VOLT !!
Wake up marketeers !
How about 50 special edition Volts that have hundreds of LED lights around their body and are to be driven 24/7 around the top 50 cities in the USA for EXPOSURE ! (aka Consumer Awareness).
June 16th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
GM needs some Apple Engineers on their payroll to help with the “human interface” on the Volt. The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use. Think of an iPhone on Wheels. Yeah, that’s the ticket. The Volt should become a natural extension to the customers body, their Comfort Zone. And Forget About VOICE Controls, that was tried with the K-car and Mercedes. The last thing people need with such a quiet car is synthetic noises.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
The Steering Wheel should look and function more like a ginormous XBox360 or PS3 controller, that would be awesome.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
#18 Steering - What buttons do I use to Jump, Fire, Spin 180 degrees fast, and toggle the third person camera angle ? It would make my commute a lot easier, and more lethal. (grin)
#17 Human Interface - Agreed, voice command technology just isn’t there yet. Too many variables in human voices. The Magallen Miestro GPS was just reviewed by consumer reports, and has problems understanding spoken commands.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Great work GM, you too Lyle!
Hopefully Lyle, you’ll get to ride of the mules and see the the final look by July 4th!
June 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Hmmm…Japanese companies tend to favor domestic (Japanese) suppliers. Toyota probably has no desire to use another battery supplier than Panasonic. However, Toyota could be a great customer for the “so called loser” of the VOLT contract. Especially since their hybrid vehicles outsell all other competitors combined…which could be a smaller risk for the battery pack manufacturer.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
I’m looking at the low 40’s for the Volt and wonder if I can do the same with it as I’ve done with my Avalanche. Yes, my Avalanche with an 8.1L Rat motor. It eats gas stations for breakfast. So what I’ve done is learned that coasting is my friend. I use the brakes as little as possible and increased my mileage by 4 mpg. I’m sure the Volt uses regenerative braking. I wonder if it’s going to be better to drive it and use the brakes or let it coast as much as possible. Which do you think will give the Volt more mileage?
June 16th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
\VOLT SS
Great news Lyle.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
“high 30’s low 40’s”…..
Don’t forget boys thats in a malibu. If what we have been told the aero should easily increase that when they start driving the production volt mules.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
“it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
That makes me giddy. That makes me really, really, excited.
(I run down pedestrians for a living)
Just Kidding.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Human Interface,
An iPhone on wheels? Are you kidding? I was hoping the Volt dashboard would be a giant Microsoft Zune.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
#22 Todd:
If you’ve already got speed up, maintaining speed on a level surface is generally better than slowing down and speeding back up again. What that means is to try to take corners without slowing down!
(Of course there’s some crossover point where you’re going SO fast that the aerodynamic drag is greater than the momentum savings, so it will depend on how fast you are going, how good the aerodynamic drag is, how efficient the regen is and… oh forget it. We’ll find out…
#19 Terry K, #18 Steering:
I also want a fire button. Unless they misunderstand the meaning and when you push the button the car catches on fire. I don’t want that.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Todd, regarding mileage…
I suspect the Volt will get better mileage coasting over using the brakes, just because regenerative braking is not 100% efficient. However, the difference will not be dramatic as it would be in a heavy vehicle with no regenerative breaking.
Otherwise I certainly agree that coasting helps. My v8 Trailblazer has the dash computer option that shows instant fuel mileage based on how much fuel is going through the injectors. At say 50MPH, fuel efficiency can easily vary between 10MPG (accelerating) and 70 MPG (coasting).
June 16th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
#22 Tod
Coasting will still net better mileage
but it will be much less of an advantage percentage-wise because of the regen. If you place any value on time, you will want to brake but not strongly enough engadge the friction pads unless essential.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
“Further he admitted that GM has yet to fully work out the transition from pure-EV to combustion- powered range extension, “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough. But heck, we’ve got a little more than a year and a half to work on that.”
*** **** ****
It all takes work and development time! That is unless you’re one of those EV Evangelical So.CA. wackos who claim that the Volt should be out this fall no “and” “ifs” or…. Developing vehicles is *NOT* easy and takes time. I’m confident that GM will do their homework on this one! It’s also important to push the envelope, yes Li-ion is expensive and it’s pretty easy to just say “the market isn’t ready”, but this is exactly why we’ve been driving gasoline cars this long. If this doesn’t succeed we’ll be on the verge of the next worse thing to gasoline…..HYDROGEN!
~
June 16th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Today, in __________ Colorado where I live, I was driving to the local Target Supercenter. Going the other way, an Aptera drove by. The change is becoming reality and sooner than I expected.
Let’s go America - rid ourselves of turmoil Oil flowing from the Middle-East.
Proud, Retired US Air Force veteran. Bring our boys and girls home for good.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Is there no end to this madness????!!!!!
I’m really encouraged!
June 16th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
JBF #31,
I agree. A little off topic but I just wonder if the word “Wheelus” rings any bells??
Take care
June 17th, 2008 at 12:15 am
Wanna maximize battery life of VOLT ?.
Just charge the battery sufficient enough for the round trip. If you are travelling only 20miles round trip, just charge only 50%, this will maximize the calender life. Wireless web interface tool to access
VOLTs system would be very helpful in achieving this. Suppose on
a weekend, you want to go to a shopping mall which is 20 miles away(40 mile roundtrip), you could just login to your computer and make VOLT fully charge. Hope GM will provide us an option for partial charge.
Below link contains details on Li ion battery and factors that affect Cycle and Calender life.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39
June 17th, 2008 at 12:15 am
Lutz said, “There’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
“Almost no reasonable doubt” is a giant opening that Statik didn’t pounce on yet. Was it too easy? “Almost no reasonable doubt” means there is reasonable doubt. Discuss…
June 17th, 2008 at 12:34 am
#35
I kind of think that’s what bob lutz has to say because making public statements seems like an extremely annoying thing that the listeners will pick apart and over analyze. Saying anything is 100% is bad PR. I’m PRETTY sure that i’m going to work tomorrow. Could i get a terrible flu or die in my sleep? Yes. Am i implying that i’m really debating going to a baseball game? no. He’s basically saying that unless something unforseen happens like chemistry changes or all of our plants get hit by tornadoes (the plants speed up if they’re hit by lightning) that everything will be fine. I don’t think he’s saying it to imply a critical flaw or a major hurdle.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:29 am
That photo of Lutz climbing out of the test car got me thinking: GM has got to be torn up about design… I mean, do we make it look like a “normal” car with doors that open wide and a keyed ignition and a “normal” dashboard and seats, so we can sell a lot of them to the “average joe” buyer?
OR do we do stuff that from a designers perspective is needed to fix the obvious problems of todays cars but that will look “too futuristic” to the average buyer and risk turning him off? Stuff like scarab doors that hinge upwards so you don’t ding your neighbor, pushbutton starting (like a computer), minimalist dashboard to minimize distractions, and seats that pivot so you face the open door.
All these things have appeared on other concept cars of the past, the research and engineering papers are available (GM wouldn’t be reinventing the wheel here) and I for one think it’s a no-brainer to risk it. This is the one thing above all else GM could do to make the public sit up and take notice after the roll-out. Then just watch the sales numbers take off!!!!
I mean without slapping on a bunch of slick eye candy stuff that really doesn’t serve a purpose (think Chrysler Concorde LXi stuff like a trip computer, refrigerated glovebox, automatic dimming mirrors, sunroofs that move six ways to sunday, video rearview, too-much-power-anything). I don’t mind rolling up my own window while I wear my “electric vehicle grin”.
C’mon GM, the point after all is to get the Volt into the hands of THE PUBLIC.
And soon!
June 17th, 2008 at 1:48 am
In the seventies, I was on a team that created a Voice Recognition and Response (VRR) system for use in the F-15 fighter jet. The Pilot would record a fixed set of words and then upload it to the computer, which stored it in an E-PROM chip. Anyway, it worked pretty good. The pilot could just say the “name” of an airport and using pattern-recognition code, the computer would automatically tune the cockpit radio to the appropriate frequency. The F-15 also had a Voice Warning system. We hired a female and male DJ from the local radio station for that. You can probably guess which voice the pilot’s preferred. Maybe the Volt could have a voice warning/control system like that old one, of course updated using today’s superchips.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:07 am
GM should get with Boeing Engineer and come up with a new “skin” for the Volt. Maybe something like a Honeycomb pattern snap-on panels that are extremely light and shock absorbing and can be molded into aerodynamic shapes, just like on a … plane. See, the Volt needs to battle the forces of the Wind just like a plane. Also, gonna need some serious low rolling-resistance tires, which will require new compounds still being perfected at Goodyear.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:27 am
Its good to see everyone so upbeat.
Ryan P #37, I think your first paragraph is about right. With all this new technology coming on board at once, it might be too much for the general public to handle futuristic designs. They need to be brought around a little more slowly than the average gizmo guru. Remember the fear of computers back in the 80s ?
The Volt needs to be well built with a dependable power source and somewhat familiar controls that drivers can relate to.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:33 am
Anyone else catch that “almost no reasonable doubt” actually means there IS a reasonable doubt…
June 17th, 2008 at 5:39 am
Kube. That’s just Lutz being positive, he really means there’s no reasonable doubt.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:10 am
I’m all for an awesome human interface, and would certainly support Apple doing it. But Microsoft? Gosh, the last thing I want to do is pull over and reboot my car.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:17 am
Wasn’t it the CEO of Intel, Andrew Grove who once said, “You don’t survive in this industry without being paranoid”, or something like that?
I agree with Terry K, #15. Toyota is right behind you, Mr. Lutz. Be paranoid. Always innovate and stay ahead. Never fall behind again.
Because Toyota would like nothing more than turning GM into a Yugo.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:35 am
#14 tomnatcaleb says: “I’d absolutely LOVE to see some sort of cool looking Volt station wagon. I know someone is laughing, but the ability to load and haul things in a station wagon with a hatch back is part of why I like the Prius design.”
I want one too! Lots of people on this site say they want a small E-FLEX station wagon. Now that gas is $4/gallon, I think GM has seriously underestimated the demand for a small station wagon. I think there are a lot of people hate oil and need a little cargo space.
Back in the 60s and 70s, car makers routinely made station wagon versions of their popular sedans. Same chassis, drive train, and front body design. Only the back was different. Maybe now is the time to get back to this. This would be so easy to do with the Volt.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:41 am
#15 Terry K says: “However, the “year and a half” comment is not so nice. Now is not the time to slow down and take a breather, Bob.”
I think you missed the point. The 2010 date is extremely aggressive. Gearing up for production, crash tests, all this stuff takes time. Remember that we haven’t even seen the body style yet. Meanwhile, the software that controls how the engine comes on can be tweaked and fine-tuned until it is (hopefully) perfect.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:46 am
44 Rashiid……..
I’ve known Andy Grove since before he started Intel (when he headed Fairchild Semiconductor). He’s a brilliant semiconductor physicist who’s also a very smart businessman. AMD has always “nipped at Intel’s heels” so Grove HAD to stay paranoid to stay ahead. (Andy retired a few years ago.)
Your advice to Bob Lutz to “be paranoid” is excellent! Now that GM is 100 years old and is re-inventing itself in terms of drive trains and everything associated with them, it’s appropriate to think like an Intel or a Microsoft “startup” ….believe me, Toyota didn’t grow to become such a dominant company in HALF the time GM’s been around by being anything BUT paranoid! GE is one of the few other huge companies that’s survived as long as it has, and GE’s Jack Welsh did it by constantly re-inventing the company and thinking like an entrepreneur thinks! The only way to survive in business (or in a mission to Mars) is to “run hard, lean, hungry, scared & smart” and always “watch your back”!!!
June 17th, 2008 at 6:49 am
#9 MrBogey, Smug levels haha! doesn’t anyone else watch southpark?
June 17th, 2008 at 6:52 am
#17 Human Interface says: “The dashboard of the Volt must be very hi tech but also extremely easy to use.”
I disagree. I test drove the Prius, and didn’t much like the the high tech instrumentation, but could live with it. But for my wife, it was a deal breaker. This was one of the main reasons we ended up buying a Honda.
If the Volt is to be a car for the masses, we need normal instrumentation. My suggestion is to integrate all the techie stuff into an optional GPS type console. This way, normal drivers won’t have to be subjected to it.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
Ain’t that the truth!!!
June 17th, 2008 at 6:59 am
#14 tomnatcaleb, 45 Dave G……..
Regarding wanting an E-Flex station wagon, as I just posted on yesterday’s thread, GM has now released the Saturn 2 Mode hybrid VUE (a “tall” station wagon) for production this fall as a 2009 model. It should offer a greater improvement in overall mileage (vs the standard VUE) than a single mode hybrid (like Prius) because the first mode is optimized for city driving & the second mode for highway driving. The VUE has two 74HP electric motors (148HP total) and its gas engine is essentially the same 3.6L V6 used in the CTS Cadillac. So this hybrid should have TONS of hauling/pulling power, but its gas mileage is said to be comparable to that of a 4-cylinder Camry.
This new 2 Mode compact/crossover SUV is also the basis for GM’s other plug-in due out in the fall of 2010 along with the Volt and it is reportedly already in road testing. As a plug-in, GM will greatly increase the VUE’s Li-Ion battery size and optimize its control algorithms for maximum efficiency & EV-only range, city & hwy. They are promising an EV-only (AER) range of >10 miles.*
*How MUCH greater than 10 miles is unknown; however, as some here may know, I’m lobbying GM for a version with 35-40 miles AER comparable to that for the Volt
June 17th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Amazing. You guys STILL don’t realize you’ve been played for suckers in a GM FUD attempt that went wrong.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am
#39 Carbon Fiber Diet:
If you haven’t already, you should see the Nova “Car of the Future” segment on Carbon Fiber. Go to :
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/
Click on “Car of the Future”. The section on Carbon Fiber starts about 2/3 through Chapter 4.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Battery Pack
Give the contract to A123/Cobalt. GM owns the company and can control battery supply and quality.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am
DC Powa comments “Maybe they are waiting for final lock-down of the look of the vehicle, so they can start plastering billboards across the country”
The Volt has developed so far as an image car, not as a car for sale. It is for TV, not billboards. Maybe that’s because GM really intended the Volt to be only an image car [not to be sold at all], until Lyle came along and forced the issue. Maybe the absence of selling is because GM will build so few in the first year, apparently, whether because of caution, lack of batteries, price or something else. Maybe the absence of selling is because they will all go to a few insider dealers in CA and DC for the first few years. It is a bit paradoxical.
The only part that seems clear is that the Volt will exist as image and specs, and will be on TV a lot as GM’s claim to be green. As a physical object, Volt40 seems to be destined to be a high-priced low-volume speciality car. A price of $50K with a 40% margin allows $30K for production, which may be divided roughly as $10K battery plus $20K car. My speculation is that most of us will see one some time some place but never own one.
If everything comes together this way, it will be a far cry from the concept announcement but a marked success for GM, in that they will have a leading-edge image car that is profitable even though not sold in large numbers. It will be a good beginning for later cars of the EREV type.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Mike D #25
I know you were just kidding, but your comment reminded me of this…
http://www.cnet.com.au/cartech/cars/0,2000438541,339286236,00.htm
Question for everyone discussing “coasting” to get better mileage. Can you really coast in a car with no transmission? I thought this thing was supposed to be direct drive, from the electric motor.
I’m really curious about this, because my commute is 20 miles downhill to work, and then 20 miles uphill back home (from elevation 8500′ down to elevation 6000′ feet). I’m right at the 40 mile cutoff, but I wonder if I can take advantage of the downhill part to coast more.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:14 am
Toyota is probably realizing how this might be GM’s golden ticket to meeting and exceeding CAFE standards. Even with lower performing engines they can still get amazing gas mileage, such as if they install an engine that gets 25mpg, they can still get away with a 120 mile trip that still achieves 38mpg.
So imagine what Toyota is thinking, “what if we put an engine in that gets even BETTER gas mileage”. Then the goal of realizing the new CAFE standards would be a piece of cake.
But GM needs to keep up the momentum on this, let the young optimistic engineers work our brains out!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Agree w/ DaveG #49…
There’s a lot of concerns over pricing the Volt for the masses …
For the first iteration of the Volt, how about we try to save a little bit on fancy touch screens and ‘hi-tech’ instrumentation panels and focus on the real reason we all have interest in this car… using less gas!
I’ll take the basics inside — give me comfortable seats, an analog speedometer, freakin’ steering wheel (I’ll put my own radio in it - Sirius Sat) and call it DONE…..spend more time on the exterior design, make this car distintictive and sleek with a very high ‘cool’ factor…
Fancy interiors can come later……..
June 17th, 2008 at 7:23 am
#41 Kubel you get the ‘realist’ prize….second place goes to no one, lol
Total gloss over on the board about 3 things:
A) The title of the thread is actually a total fabrication. The quote from Bob is, “I would say there’s almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore that this is going to work.”
THERE IS NO “AS PLANNED” — this changes the whole meaning, like it or not, the title and content thereafter is manipulated, and it should be changed. Lutz is actually saying that the Volt is not 100 percent certain of it’s future at THIS moment.
Ironically, he choses to say, “they (Toyota) told the world that GM was taking a huge risk” I would say that is correct, this is a huge risk, regardless of getting to market. Both in viability to recoup equity and to liability.
B) This post does more about what it implies than actually says…and it says that there will be NO production Chevy Volt anywhere in the near future regardless of what various talking heads say. How can you have one, when you don’t even have a working drivetrain? One and a half years to work on clunky engine noises and bumpy switches?
C) “they’ve routinely had it to the high 30s, low 40s and they go up hills with it and everything” - wow, up like hills? I thought we only were going to drive on flat surfaces. Why did he have to add this comment, it only causes concern.
I know the drag is greater in a Malibu. But how much greater?…like 4-5 miles of range worth? It sounds like they have just zipped it up the odd hill, doesn’t sound like they have put it through ‘reasonable’ testing to me…and they are only getting high 30s sometimes? What about battery degradation? Isn’t the expected degradation 20% over it’s life? Doesn’t that mean it could feasibly be in the high 20s, low 30s after a few years?
(I’m not saying thats a ‘for sure’ on the battery range problems, but I am saying that brings a new ‘maybe’ into play…when they were saying the testing went ‘great’ and was exceeding expectation. Did we not think that meant the mules where going through ‘real world’ testing and were preforming well over the 40 mile range? I think we did)
June 17th, 2008 at 7:24 am
RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!
well done!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Bob Lutz said: “When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory.”
I don’t watch much television. However, last night as I walked by I heard that ABC News would have a segment on new car technologies, including plug-ins. After seeing the preview, I watched until near the end of the news to see this feature.
They discussed the new FCX with its fuel cells, but never mentioned the Fuel Cell Equinox. They looked at a converted plug-in Prius, but never mentioned the Volt. They did manage to include a Ford Escape hybrid with plug-in capability, and showed a Tesla (which they claimed cost $120k) but that was it for domestic manufacturers.
After these blatant omissions, I have to agree with Bob Lutz. However, I’m not sure whether the mainstream media is ignorant or just plain dishonest and deceptive.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:26 am
#58 Murray
EXACTLY!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Any reason that one might not want to be able to manually delay the ICE startup? Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone. Any thoughts?
June 17th, 2008 at 7:30 am
#51 nasaman,
The Saturn Vue is too big and heavy. We wanted something smaller and lighter, so we bought a 2007 Honda CR-V. The CR-V weighs 436 pounds less than the Vue. The Toyota RAV-4 weighs 525 pounds less than the Vue. This is all straight from the Saturn site under the Vue “Features and Specs Comparison”. When will U.S. car companies get the idea that bigger and heavier is worse?
In any event, the Honda CR-V is still bigger than we wanted. We had a Subaru Outback, but it broke down a lot, and the mileage was not good. What we really want is an efficient, reliable, small station wagon, which doesn’t seem to exist in the U.S.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:32 am
RE: Parker
You could but that would be outside of GM’s safety zone for the battery and might void your warranty.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:33 am
#63 Parker
To extend battery life, my understanding is the Volt is setup to never let the battery get below a 20% charge or above 80% capacity on a full charge.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Is there going to be a manuel override on the ICE to shut it down or turn it on? I thought that ICE control was totally automatic and out of the drivers hands.
Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?
June 17th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Bob should stop worrying about what Toyota has said and what they are doing.
Does it cause any concern to anyone that Toyota’s only concern is that it can’t produce enough batteries in time to pump out more than a few hundred copies in 2010, not anything to do with the actual car?
It already has a “joint-venture” with Matsushita to get a plant up and going, into production in 2009 and full production in 2010.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:42 am
#63 Parker says: “Say you’re 5 miles from home, and the batteries are down to the point where the generator starts, but you still have power to get home on electric alone.”
This has been suggested many times before. I don’t think it’s a good idea let users control this. The E-REV (a.k.a. series hybrid) design requires a good amount of charge on the battery to deal with acceleration and uphill driving. This is why they can get away with using an 80hp ICE in a car with a 160hp electric motor.
Also, remember that the ICE only comes on just enough to keep the battery at 30% SOC, so the ICE doesn’t charge the battery.
In addition, one reason 30% SOC was chosen was because regularly discharging more than this can decrease the battery’s lifespan.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:03 am
A quote from the article: Lutz also talked more about his test drives of the prototype, continuing to expand of the silent theme of electric drive noting “it never shifts and you just scream along in total silence.”
I love the idea of silent driving, but there are downsides.
A few weeks ago, I read a CNN.com news piece about a kid on a bike that was hit by a Prius. The boy’s claimed he couldn’t hear the car coming, and that caused the accident. Once ambulance chasing lawyers get hold of this, there’s no telling how far it will go…
It might be wise for GM to put in some sort of artificial noise generation that the driver can control. This way, lawyers will be forced to go after the driver for negligence, and not GM.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Wait wait wait wait…wait.
come on tech guys, what is up with this?
“it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”
If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough? I thought the wheels were connected to the electric motors, connnected to the battery, connected to the ICE. Is he talking the start-up of the ICE to charge the battery? How can that be rough enough to notice? What is going on?
Another note…
The car needs a proximity sound. A car zipping along that makes little or no sound is a safety hazard. “Loud pipes save lives” is no myth, I never complain about the sound of a Harley, at least I know where she is. It needs to have an option to have a “running sound” like running lights…loud enough to warn pedestrians and other animate beings, but still quieter than today’s cars.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:06 am
64 Dave G…..
Remember that the weight of a well-designed hybrid or E-REV becomes significantly less important to the vehicle’s overall economy. The plug-in VUE will use both deceleration charging (foot off the accelerator) and regenerative braking (foot on the brake). In the exact same chassis as the VUE, GM claims the plug-in Cadillac Provoq concept gets an AER of 20 miles with a 9kWh Li-Ion battery (with no help from the fuel cell).
So if the Plug-in Provoq (or VUE) had an 18kWh battery, it would get 40 miles AER. My point is that @10cents/KWH it costs 80 cents to fully charge the 8kWh in a Volt battery & 90 cents to fully charge the 9kWh in a hypothetical Provoq or VUE, regardless of vehicle weight. I’d gladly spend the extra 10 cents for the additional power, towing ability and interior space of the plug-in CUV!
June 17th, 2008 at 8:10 am
#60 Murray — me, like Statik? Wow, a great compliment. Scary, too
June 17th, 2008 at 8:19 am
to #15 Terry K
You sound like Toyota is some kind of God. Hey, I’m old enough to know when we, in the USA, set our mind to do something, we can be the best. The Japanese have awoken a sleeping giant and fear not, the so call great Toyota will not beat us like you think they might. The only thing Toyota has contributed to the auto industry is quality and the Prius. Check and see what GM has contributed and you’ll be shock. The news media one day, I hope, will start reporting the facts straight. Toyota talks from both side of their mouth and you can not trust them. GM better have their technology patented because Toyota will steal their ideas and then the news media will say ” oh, those Toyota people are so so smart” Here’s a link at how Japan got where there at today. I dare you to read it.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
June 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am
#60 Murray
“RB #55 … that is a great impersonation of a Statik posting !!!”
Yes, I too thought it was smart, insightful and concise (SIC). It should a bold new, almost futuristic glimpse into the superior mind of tomorrow. A bold and innovative way to…
June 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am
#71 Eco quotes Maximum Bob “it all works real well, it’s just that the transition from battery power to the internal combustion. They said it’s still noisy and it’s a little rough.”
and then Eco asks a very good question “If the ICE is connected to the battery, how can it be rough?”
Maybe what we have is this: When the ICE comes on, it spins the generator, which then sends electricity directly to the motor (in addition to charging the battery). At startup the ICE-generator combo is producing voltage/current that is not exactly equal to that from the battery, and maybe fluctuating for a few seconds. So this uneveness in generator startup is at present not buffered well enough, and the result is a rough transition. Well, maybe — we don’t know what controls or switches or buffers they have in there now, so it is all conjecture.
Still, something like this probably is what’s happening. Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:27 am
#67 Brad G says: “Also somebody mentioned a small turbine to drive the generator. Anybody hear anything new about the ICE on the Volt?”
Many posts on this site have speculated about a turbine, HCCI, or diesel variation, but GM has stated repeatedly that the first Volt will use a 1.0L 3-piston turbocharged engine which runs on gasoline and/or E85. The main unanswered questions about the engine are:
1) Will it be constant or variable RPMs?
2) Will it use an Otto, Atkinson, or Miller cycle design?
A gm-volt.com interview with GM last summer indicated that the engine would be variable RPM, but that was later brought into question.
Most gas engines use the Otto cycle for maximum torque. Traditional hybrids like the Prius don’t require as much torque, since they use the electric motor to augment acceleration, so the Atkinson cycle engine is typical in most hybrids to increase efficiency. Newer turbocharged hybrids are using Miller cycle engine designs for maximum efficiency. Since the Volt’s engine is not connected to the wheels at all, torque is not a major concern. Given that the Volt’s engine is turbocharged, I would suspect it is a Miller cycle engine, but that has yet to be confirmed.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:28 am
#74 Joe
I think we should just dust off old ‘Enola Gay’ then…and remind them what a little plutonium-239 can do for them.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:36 am
I think most manufacturers have come to the conclusion that electric is the future. GM’s Volt is a step of faith and a necessary one if we are going to have an auto industry in America. I’m in a Toyota now, but I know my future and my grandchildren’s future rest with the sucess of GM and a few other industrial leaders willing to take some long-term risks. Go GM!!!
June 17th, 2008 at 8:43 am
#76 RB says: “Likely they intend the motor to be driven directly from the generator after the ICE comes on, so as not to charge and discharge the battery any more times than necessary”
Actually, when the ICE is running, the battery is discharged somewhat during acceleration and uphill driving, and then recharged back to 30% when you let off on the accelerator. This is called “charge sustaining mode”.
The ICE & generator supply much less power than the battery. The batteries and electric motor produce around 120KW of power, which translates to around 160hp. The ICE & generator produce around 1/2 that, 53KW if I remember correctly.
In charge sustaining mode, the ICE & generator provide AVERAGE horsepower, while the batteries and electric motor provide PEAK horsepower for acceleration or driving uphill. Even if you’re driving up a steep mountain, the 30% SOC in the battery is enough to get you there, so average horsepower is less than 1/2 of peak horsepower in any real world scenario.
Now if you cut the battery size in half for a 20-mile version, all this could change.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:44 am
76 RB……
Based on my background in large batteries used on spacecraft, I’d guess what GM is experiencing is due to the somewhat higher voltage initially needed from the generator to cause the Volt battery to begin acquiring charge. Think of it this way….. when a lead-acid battery is fully charged its nominal (open-circuit) voltage is close to 12.7volts. But when the alternator first begins charging, the battery voltage momentarily jumps to a little over 14 volts, or about 10% higher. Even with the Volt’s motor/controller hard-wired to the battery, when the ICE/generator first comes on the initial “voltage spike” across the battery probably causes a momentary surge in motor current ….this is what I think Bob Lutz may be describing.
I think they can suppress that initial motor surge and muffle the ICE starting noise without too much difficulty.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:46 am
#78 statik:
This type of humor is a bit harsh - even for you.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Dave G, #70. I don’t want noise. There is too much noise already.
I want peace and quiet.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Joe # 74
Good article !
I think I am the grandpa of this site. I remember and was part of our commitment 1940- 1945 to build and beat this country. I have not forgot what happened to soldiers captured in the Philippines and the Pacific area. It will take another dedicated America to pull us out the fire again. This wonderful country we call America has to understand that good things do not come easy and we may have to make sacrifices to make us great again.
I have no doubt that GM has the technologies to produce an auto of this magnitude, get it to the public.
My main concern is they don’t take my drivers license away before the VOLT comes out. I’m on the list and hope I will have the opportunity to purchase a VOLT.
Tom
June 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Statik why do you even bother coming to this site? Never mind I know the answer to that question. If you are married I feel sorry for your spouse and kids. Must be horrible for them.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am
#80 Dave G — I agree with you on all points. The question is what happens in the first 30 seconds after the ICE comes on. On level ground, it seems like all voltage/current to the motor will be coming from the ICE, because the ICE/generator will be producing enough output, on the average, to supply the motor and charge the battery. However, the ICE/generator battery may not be entirely stable in the first seconds the ICE starts, and in any event will not exactly equal the battery voltage/current before the transition (probably close but not exactly the same).
All this is simply speculation, of course, but the battery to ICE switchover is bound to have some bumps at first. Now that the GM engineers have some recorded data to use I’m confident that they will fix this bumpiness, probably in some series of refinements. In 6 months the driver still may be aware of the transition, but it is not going to be a problem.
June 17th, 2008 at 8:59 am
I had to skip down a lot of posts, so sorry if this has already been covered.
For the design - make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents (I’m 30). Its going to be people of my generation or younger that have grown used to the IPhone or ITouch, sleek designs that use technology from the 90’s and after, and don’t look like something designed by a bunch of guys in suits smoking Lucky Strikes.
Look at what the military is doing with their jets, the F22 and F35. No analog guages. Just a few touchscreens that can be customized to the user. THAT is what I’d like to see. Give me the ability to choose what is on my display, and drag and drop the guages around to match my mood (or different drivers). I’d have no problem with a factory set display that looks like a normal car. But the ability to customize the display to my preferences would be great. Why do I* have to look at guages I don’t care about? Remember, these cars will be bought by the ME generation in a few years - lets give them what they want.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:08 am
#82 Dave G
“#78 statik:
This type of humor is a bit harsh - even for you.”
You need to read the source article quoted in the original post, to understand my post. I’m wagering you didn’t read it, so it may seem that way to you.
I was being sarcastic, in my own way, with topical references, but it was in response to a tangent that lead into that direction. The word “War” is reference no fewer than 32 times directly in that linked article in post #74. So I believe it is fair ball.
From the link, ridiculously suggesting Japan is getting ready to go back to war:
“Japan have the world’s second largest military budget, they are also accumulating the largest stockpile of plutonium in the world (more than the U S or Russia) [Chicago Tribune 02/03/92 s1 p1] for reasons of “national security”. In Japan, Fujitsu has built several nuclear breeder reactors (such reactors are sometimes used to make nuclear weapons). The Japanese claim however, that they are for peacef ul purposes. Hopefully this is so.”
Hope that clears that up.
Cheers.
(=
June 17th, 2008 at 9:12 am
I yes to a station wagon type …. I am currently driving my 2nd Malibu Maxx. (04 and now 07 LT) and just love the cargo capacity and it seats 5 comfortably..It is one of the few cars I have seen where you can actually slid the back seats forward or backwards (for the taller people) . And… it does not look like the regular station wagon…. Why not put all the Volt power train into the MAXX and maybe beef up the battery a bit to compensate for the additional size and weight…. 30 MPC and 50 MPG after that for around $ 40 K….When can I pick it up ???
Ray
June 17th, 2008 at 9:20 am
#88 statik,
I realize that this was a joke (sarcastic humor), and I enjoy much of your humor, but you never know who is reading this site and how they will interpret things…
June 17th, 2008 at 9:25 am
JAK #87 …
I’m slightly older than you and I hear what you are saying, I would also really ‘digg’ customizable touch screen style instrumentation…it would be extremely cool to be able to set it up yourself because everybody is different.
One thing we wont need is a tachometer huh? Although, I can see people wanting a ’simulated’ tach maybe? Just like those who want a simluated ‘engine sound’ ??? I like the screaming in silence idea …. just drive defensively and those pedestrians and bikers wearing their iPods who couldnt hear you anyway should be nice and safe….
Yes, it would be great to have those options but dont you think GM would be better served to keep it simple inside?
…make the exterior catch the eye of the ‘ME’ generation and where I totally agree with you …
“For the design - make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents”
But for the inside I say start simple sans the fancy customized instrument cluster…
I am, of course, someone who wishes to own a Volt, and I should be able to afford one… but I would also like to see as many people as possible be able to afford this thing once it comes out. The batteries will be and should be where the $$$ are spent.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Should they use clutch for smoothing bumping. Capacitors helps also. But on other hand Prius works smoothly. Why should not Volt?
June 17th, 2008 at 9:30 am
#85 Omegaman66
“Statik why do you even bother coming to this site? Never mind I know the answer to that question. If you are married I feel sorry for your spouse and kids. Must be horrible for them”
I believe in making people responsible for their actions. I give credit when it is due, and don’t blow kisses at failures in hopes they do better ‘the next time’
If it appears I have zero loyalty to GM, (even though I own a GM car, and the last 3 of 5 have been a GM product), that is completely true. I don’t care about automakers at all. The have all been building huge, irresponsible, polluting behemoths for decades.
They shouldn’t even be allowed to advertise the things. The gas car is no different than the cigarette, public opinion just hasn’t evolved enough yet, but it is starting too now…and it will in time.
So to summarize. I’m here because I want to drive a electric vehicle.
I want to say to anyone to who will listen, “I will never own a gas car again, and you shouldn’t either. I want to be the first wave of change.” With every missed deadline, price increase, performance issue and lesser production announcement GM threatens/delays a piece of that reality for me and my kid (s) and I will hold them accountable, whether it be on this forum…or by buying the competition’s whip if it comes to market first.
Was that the answer you were thinking of to my question?
June 17th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Why does the car need to make noise for idiots walking with their I-pods cranked up or the ocassional blind person you see walking down the street (maybe once a year), Isn’t the Volt equipped with a horn? Give me a break…
June 17th, 2008 at 9:32 am
#90 Dave G
I hear you Dave. And the source link is ‘hella long,’ few, (if any, other than myself) are probably going to read it.
(I’ll try to footnote reference my sarcasm on WMDs in the future, hehe)
June 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am
#77
Valid point. All cycles…Otto, Miller etc for those that are not “Gear Heads” or actually built performance engines… it’s not a mystical new engine.
Rather “tuning” of the camshaft profile….timing of the intake and exhaust valves & ignition timing & what power adder will be used. Turbo or Blower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_cycle
What ever tuning at a given rpm for a specific displacement for optimal generator rpm will be used. It’s just a tune.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am
There are already groups representing the handicapped lobbying Congress to force existing hybrids to generate some kind of noise so that the blind can hear it coming.
There are at least four points about artificially generating sound for this purpose;
First, please don’t be tempted to think that this isn’t a valid issue. There are kids on bikes, and in the street, in residential neighborhoods; as well as the vision-impaired, to think of.
Above a certain speed, tire noise becomes significant enough to make a warning sound unnecessary (especially at freeway speeds, where there aren’t supposed to be any pedestrians). It’s likely that the artificial Volt sound could shut off at higher speeds.
If you deliberately create a sound, it need only be directed to the front, not in all directions like those annoying loud pipes.
The choice of sound can be optimized to be noticeable at close range without adding too much to the overall noise level: I imagine someting like a “rattle,” not a tone, but rapidly repeating bursts of white or pink noise filling most of the audible high frequency spectrum: “Kk Kk Kk Kk Kk … “ (which has the added benefit of requiring less power and smaller drivers to achieve highly directional results than lower sounds).
A bicycle’s bell gets noticed pretty well from an otherwise quiet vehicle, in part, because it is so quiet.
Of course, the best solution is to have a button to press manually, but this is only as effective as the driver’s willingness to press it. I expect something automatic could soon be mandated.
If this issue gets addressed early, it’s less likely that we’ll have some unacceptable (”osha beeper”) racket imposed upon us.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:37 am
#81 nasaman — thanks for the comment on the initial bump in voltage needed to start charging the battery. That explains the bumpiness Max Bob reported. Excellent information. As you said, now that they can quantify it, they can solve it, probably fairly quickly.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Nasaman @72
You are about the only one around here lately that GETS IT!!
“high 30s to low 40s” range in a Malibu! This tells me the one thing I have been railing about for weeks. The VOLT does not need to look like an aero bubble!!
Take the extra range, give the car some more style and design appeal, and GM will have a GOLD mine. And they will have raised the bar for electric car design to levels the Japanese will have a hard time following.
GM can design cars with the best in the world, and it pains me to see the designers cut off at the knees by Cd and drag requirements.
The extra cost for going from 45 mpc to 35 mpc is TINY! About 25 cents worth of electricity? The equivalent situation for gasoline would have been when gas was about 1$ a gallon. Would you care if your car got 25mpg or 35 mpg if gas was a buck a gallon today??? Of course not!!
Then why is the fact that this car must get 40 mpc come hell or high water so important to some?? At the expense of design?? I absolutely don’t get it.
The fact that the drivetrain is getting the range Bob states in Malibu trim tells me that the Volt SHOULD be styled VERY WELL. If it is not, then GM will have wasted an incredible opportunity to show the world what American car designers can do with an electric car.
And they will have left the door wide open for someone else to come in and steal the design limelight. That would be tragic.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:44 am
#97 Jackson
I imagine someting like a “rattle,” not a tone, but rapidly repeating bursts of white or pink noise filling most of the audible high frequency spectrum: “Kk Kk Kk Kk Kk … “
I imagine Usher’s “Yeah!” playing on a constant loop.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXbRBS5Z58
-OR-
for Tag/old school CCR/Fogarty “Born on the Bayou”
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NhxUNezI4l4
June 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am
#99 MetrologyFirst says “And they will have left the door wide open for someone else to come in and steal the design limelight. That would be tragic.”
Or maybe it is the other way around — the Volt will keep the limelight (it has it now) but Toyota (or Mitsubishi or Nissan) will take advantage of the halo and reap the sales volume, by being there about the same time as the Volt with a more affordable and available car. GM seems to be on the leading edge of the wave, but GM also seems very cautious about volume and actual sales. The others are right behind.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Nasaman #72
Thanks for pushing the VUE plug-in. I pushed my wife to test-drive a Mariner Hybrid, but no sale. The trunk space was deemed too small, and the body shape too boxy. In a way I was glad, because I think that better things are around the corner. The VUE has cooler body styling, although I don’t know about the trunk space. BUT please press that we don’t need a V-6. It should be an option, not a standard. We don’t haul boats, only bikes and camping gear. Also, if they would look at the next size up as a hybrid (Outlook) that would be a nice option, and could compete directly with the Highlander Hybrid.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Statik #93 …. it didnt take me very long to ‘get your angle’, hoepfully that post helps Omegaman66 “get you” …. well stated sir!
It will take me approximately 3 days to read that Japan article you guys are referencing
Jackson #97 …. I was taught a long long time ago that the most dangerous thing on the road is other people, you must always assume that the other guy doesnt SEE or HEAR you. I know that not everyone drives with this fundamental thought process and I understand why those groups representing the handicapped are doing so…. but here are 2 simple facts;
1) My current car already has a button that makes noise - its located in the center of my steering wheel
2) Accidents do and will continue to happen
GM should not have to worry about this issue for round 1 of the Volt (IMO)
June 17th, 2008 at 9:52 am
#87 JAK says: “For the design - make it futuristic. The people that are going to buy this car are not my mom and dad, or my grandparents (I’m 30)…”
The Volt is supposed to be a mainstream car for the masses, not a niche car for 30 and under.
There are lots of reasons people will want the Volt. More people are beginning to understand the link between foreign oil and terrorism. Global warming is causing more severe hurricanes, tornadoes, and flooding. Gas prices are skyrocketing. So I don’t think the Volt is limited to a particular age demographic.
For many people, a futuristic user interface is an instant turn-off.
Again, for people like you, I suggest a touch screen with lots of options as an optional GPS type console. That way, the rest of us won’t have to be subjected to it.
As an aside, I have lots of high tech gadgets like you speak of, but in car, I think scrolling through touch screen menus while driving is a recipe for disaster. This is exactly why they outlawed cell phones in cars.
GM, please keep the instrumentation simple!
June 17th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Jackson #97
Agree with all. It is also a safety issue for drivers/passengers. Common wildlife (e.g. turkey, deer) can do tremendous damage to an automobile, and even cause fatalities. A silent-running car could multiply the number of accidents.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:53 am
#86 RB
Here’s the scenario:
You’re at home and an important call comes in on your cell phone. You pick up and your boss asks you if you can participate in a conference call going on related to the project you’ve been working on the last few months. You say, “Absolutely” and conversing begins. After a minute, you hear a tone on the phone indicating a low battery charge. You look on your desk and find the charger plug. You plug in and breathe a sigh as the phone continues to work.
As I’ve been told, the Volt ICE will not power the electric motor. The ICE will send a charge to the battery when the battery reaches 30% of its charge. The ICE’s purpose is not to fully charge the battery, but to maintain it at 30%.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:06 am
#93 statik says: “I don’t care about automakers at all. They have all been building huge, irresponsible, polluting behemoths for decades.”
I agree. GM’s bean counters don’t give a crap about me, so why should I be loyal to them? Frankly, I find it hard to understand loyalty to a brand to begin with. Capitalism, free-market competition, those are things I can understand.
And if anybody wonders, I’m here because I also want a car that runs on electricity. This is a Volt fan site, not a GM fan site. I’m pretty sure there are many others on this site who are not big fans of GM.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:10 am
#106 Nelson — Nice analogy. I agree that the battery-to-ICE transition should work as you said. Maybe a little disagreement is what happens when the ICE/generator is running — it seems likely that some current will flow directly from the generator to the motor, without charging the battery as an intermediate step, though charging the battery may be happening at the same time.
In the analogy, it is true that sometimes one does hear a crackle or two when the charger is first plugged in. In the Volt, as nasaman said, a little voltage bump may be needed to get the battery into charge rather than discharge mode. Then mechanically ICEs may take a few seconds to stablize under load, and as Dave G noted at #80, the situation is more complicated if the car is accelerating as the transition occurs. So things are not quite as simple as they first appear.
Still, I think we are all agreed that these transient events are going to get smoothed out. They are not fundamental obstacles.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:13 am
RB @ 101
Contrary to a lot of posts here, I believe “the masses” do care what their cars look like. They always have. It’s the zealots and activists that don’t care. The Prius is an outlier. It provided something (high mileage) that alot of people needed, at the right time, with no competition. I personally know 4 people who bought the Prius even though, to a person, they think it is”butt-ugly”. This is the opening for the Volt.
If GM comes along with a drop-dead beautifully styled Volt, at a good price, the other manufacturers will have their work to do. They have not demonstrated the ability to design an attractive electric car. When there is choice in this segment, the well styled cars will win. They almost always historically do. Particularly when the fuel cost impact is severely reduced. “Mileage (mpg,mpc)” will be much less important in the future. See post #99.
I do not fear competition for the Volt. I fear for an ugly, aerobubble Volt.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Ahhh nuts my edit didn’t come up. Anyway if you read the whole link it’s interesting. Shows different engine configurations beyond just tuning.
What ever is reliable, cost effective and mass production friendly will go in.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Dave G, JAK, et. al.,
>> GM, please keep the instrumentation simple
I agree that this would keep the instrumentation costs down, and if well designed, that may even make the vehicle simpler to use/drive.
However there is no reason there couldn’t be an optional instrumentation package that is more advanced, with more functions, providing more automation, charge reminders, etc. Heck, you see it now in cars that come with-or-without an advanced navigation system.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:34 am
104. Dave G.,
>> This is exactly why they outlawed cell phones in cars.
Oh, don’t I wish! Don’t know where you are, but here in Wisconsin USA, it’s still legal. Horribly irresponsible in many cases (I drive defensively and deal with avoiding idiot cellphone-yappers every day on the freeway), but still legal.
I say this as a semi-libertarian who loves freedom, but for pete’s sake, you can’t yell “fire” in a movie theater, either, and that doesn’t erode the right to free speech.
EDIT: Sorry! I realize this post was pretty off-topic.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Should GM outsource manufacturing of the power module to some one who knows better about electricity generation packs like they have done with battery. It is suprisingly late even to think about such issue. There are lot of backup power generator manufacturers.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:00 am
I think the Chevy Volt when released will be closer to a 60 mile range.
I think Chevy is actually downplaying their goal. I think the 20 mile range is a sawhorse tossed in front of Toyota. Who’s technology would allow such a range in 2010. So the idea would be to let Toyota think that 40 is the goal, and is doable, but 20 will be likely for the affordable model. Than release the Volt at 60 miles and maybe a cheaper one at 30 miles.
If the current mule is high 30’s low 40’s. Even with hilly terrain. Give a year of design refinements + battery improvements. Cost reductions of large scale production. And I think a 60+ miler is not out of the question as the actually released goal.
Toyota would meander along release their new Prius with a 20 mile electric range and find themselves competing against a 60 mile range.
Right now if I was GM, I would NOT be closing any of my factories. I would be re-tooling. Buying up a solar cell manufacturer and building solar cells at cost. Then selling them at cost with every Volt. And offering GM financing for the solar cells.
OMG what a killing. “I went in to buy a Chevy Volt for $25,000. I spent $70,000.” *insert Wife screaming in the background*
But sweetie, here’s the good news, I did buy the Volt - and not the Vette. But I also bought solar panels, and we won’t have to pay any more electric bills or gas bills.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am
#113.
Making a generator is one thing. Making one with emissions is a whole different ball game. I don’t know of any company with more engine building experience or units built than GM. I doubt it will be any drama and most likely the easiest part of the build. Spinning a coil of wire by magnets is not tough. they have been doing it in alternators at GM for about 100 years.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:27 am
#104 Dave -
I see your point about making it simple and not adding to driver distraction. But how about at least having an active digital display instead of analog instruments. Many cars already have a digital speedometer. If it were customizable, they could lock the display unless the car was in park, like some front seat DVD players have now.
Just a thought, but it would also cut down on control wiring and systems, then all that would be there is a computer display. Its simplifying the design. I’m not an engineer, but it seems like it would be easier to have all the data go to a computer display through one processor then having 10 different gauges, each with their own cable and control, and each with the ability to malfunction.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:34 am
99. MetrologyFirst,
The cost of going from 35 mpc to 45 mpc is not just the cost of the electricity. You need a much larger battery to get that range as well. But perhaps $3,000 extra for the battery + plus the extra cost of the fancier pieces + the electricity per charge is worth a better looking car.
On another note, recent speculation on Honda’s new small hybrid is that it will be available first half of 2009, be less expensive than the Prius, look like the FCX, and be in the mid-50s MPG. 100,000 units in the US alone for 2009.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:36 am
With my vehicle their are so many functions that can be controlled through the navigation screen or the screen in the instrument pod. But the software locks you out unless your in park. Except Navigation and a few other basic functions for front and rear climate etc.
They should make it as fun as possible with as many features as possible. Just no changes while vehicle in motion.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:40 am
NOTE FOR BOB:
There is a lot of worry by some about how apartment/condo dwellers would recharge their Volt (should they buy one.) It is a reasonable concern. One solution is for GM to help jump start the Plug-In infrastructure. This might come about in the form of a JV with a large franchise like a convenient store, parking lot owner or mall management group. “Quick Charge” stations designed to accept credit/debit swipes would let EV owners charge in the absence of their own extension cord.
Two things are also important: the Volt power monitor should tell the owner how many kWh are needed for average mileage, e.g. “For 20 miles all-electric driving you will need 4kWh of energy.” The owner can then dial this number into the charge station, pay the fare, and return in a couple hours to a fully charged vehicle.
Of course if you work at a forward thinking company there will be charge stations installed in xx number of parking spaces. Some entrepreneur will do a big business in packaging charge station installations. GM can alleviate apartment dweller concerns by encouraging some level of public charge station construction and jump start alternative energy tycoons into competition.
Finally, a word of congratulations to GM’s JV with cellulosic ethanol makers. The Coskata project shows real leadership in alternative energy systems. The recent H2 station announce is also a leading position. Next might be some form of municipal solar charge station in the southern sun belt. This would leverage new thin-film PV technology and Li-Io storage so that a charge cycle could be had with near zero emissions. The municipality can require a fee for the service, which after amortization of costs can be a new revenue stream to the city. The “fuel” of course will be sunlight, which by some great source of wisdom, we have been given for free.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:48 am
#103 Murray says: “My current car already has a button that makes noise - its located in the center of my steering wheel”
The problem is that this button is momentary. You don’t leave it on when you’re driving through residential neighborhoods (at least I hope you don’t). Kids on bikes don’t advertise when they will dart in front of you. You need some sort of constant noise enabled by a switch you can leave on.
My main concern isn’t safety. My main concern is lawyers. If GM loses a big law suit because the Volt is too quiet, then:
1) GM would suspend Volt production
2) People would be afraid the Volt isn’t safe to drive
3) Volt sales would plummet
In my mind, the easiest solution is for GM to add a noise maker that can be enabled by a switch on the dash. If the driver forgets to turn this on and hits a kid on a bike, then it’s the driver’s fault. The lawyers would be forced to go after the driver, and this would keep them away GM’s deep pockets.
#83 Rashiid Amul says: “I don’t want noise. There is too much noise already. I want peace and quiet.”
I don’t want noise either, but I also don’t want Volt production to be suspended due to some law suit. So while the switch enabled noise maker is important to have, I personally would leave the switch always off.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:52 am
#119 Artimus — Good points on the need for recharge for apts, etc. Here in the Carolinas, it is reported in the newpapers that anticipating plug-in cars Duke energy (the electric utility for much of the area) has set up a fund to pay for the installation of electric outlets for such purposes. These outlets will no doubt be metered. I’m not sure if the bills will go to the property owner, or perhaps use some kind of individualized charge-card system.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:52 am
#97 Jackson. Sorry. I live in the woods. Hardly any traffic, blind people or kids. I want silence. No noise whatsoever.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:55 am
#120 Dave G — some earlier safety studies envisioned a periodic chime that could be switched on in residential areas, not loud or objectionable but enough to hear an audible “here I am.” It was pictured as under driver control, something that could be done that was not as abrasive as the normal horn. Railroad train engineers have this kind of 2-level sound system, the big “get out of my way” horn, but then also the bell that rings periodically when moving slowly in populated areas or stations.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Well this is all getting pretty overwhelming, but just to show I’m trying to pay attention, let me offer the following:
#30 Grizzly:
Speaking as a certified “EV Evangelical So. Ca. wacko”, I can stand a few bumps out of the driveline if they just get the !@#$% car to the public. You ought to hear the auto trans in our 2006 1500 clang when you drop it into gear from neutral. They have had over 20 years to refine these 700R4 derivatives and it still jerks. We gotta get some product in the showrooms man.
44 Rashiid Amul & # 47 nasaman:
Agreed. Right on point, as always.
#49 Dave G:
Absolutely right, IMHO:
#52 M1EK:
We haven’t been played for suckers. We just want GM to survive and go forward, even if it’s in spite of themselves. If they fail, at least we will be able to say that we, by God, did whatever we could
#55 RB:
I would just say that claiming to be green while carrying on with business as usual doesn’t get it any more. The public is not falling for that any longer, nor is the stock market if you follow Statik’s analyses. If GM actually thinks that they are going to prolong the inevitable by putting up some sort of Potemkin, vaporware, “green” car, they are in for a rude shock. I, for one, believe that they know that.
#70 Dave G & #94 Brad G (any relation?):
Agreed. Somebody else mentioned the little button in the middle of the steering wheel. Hello? I used to have a 1961 Alfa Romeo that had a little toggle switch for softer or louder horn. Come to think of it somebody (Renault?) had an ad saying “City horn, country horn”.
#78 Statik:
IS IT TRUE????????? Statik is the screen name of Dick Cheny? Are you posting from the undisclosed secure location?
Great comments all. This blog is getting so busy it’s hard to find time to read them all. My humble apologies to everybody I missed.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
#119 Artimus,
Apartment and Condo parking lots will have card or key based charging ports, but not until plug-ins like the Volt get some traction in the market. When Volt sales hit 100,000, then these types of charging ports will begin to appear.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
101 RB, says, “…… the Volt will keep the limelight (it has it now) but Toyota (or Mitsubishi or Nissan) will take advantage of the halo and reap the sales volume, by being there about the same time as the Volt with a more affordable and available car. GM seems to be on the leading edge of the wave, but GM also seems very cautious about volume and actual sales. The others are right behind”
Agreed. Toyota is on the offense and won’t slow down for anyone.
They are right on GM’s heals. GM is playing defense but seriously needs to hit the ground running. Price the car for the masses. Make lots of them and make them extremely reliable. Toyota will not be shy in promoting and selling their plugin Prius. GM needs to jump up and down and scream to everyone, “Here is our EV. Anyone can buy it! It is green. It gets 50 MPG after the first 40 miles. It is American made and extremely well engineered.”
June 17th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Vincent
Emissions are even stricter for backup power generators. The GM normally dealing with Otto cycle engines. Here they can use what ever cycle they want. It depends more on electrical architecture and it is different they been doing before.
June