GM May Offer a 20-Mile Range Version of the Chevy Volt
One of the best things about the Volt is being able to drive without gas for most of one’s daily driving needs. It is clear though, the 40-mile range lithium-ion batteries are going to be expensive, limiting how low GM will be able to sell the Volt for.
In a new interview, Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz noted “the nature of this technology is that it’s going to be expensive, and we will not underprice this vehicle.”
Although he indicated GM will likely opt to slowly ramp up initial Volt production “to make sure things are bulletproof”, he re-iterated GMs commitment to make this a massively produced vehicle stating, “to make this thing a sustainable business, we have to drive it to volume, and to get there we have to work through these first few years where it’s going to challenge us mightily.”
He brought up the possibility of a lower range, less expensive version of the Volt, per the article, “in the future, GM could offer a battery pack with a 20-mile electric-only range to bring costs down, part of an effort to cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more.”
He also went on to confirm an announcement on the battery supplier, A123 vs LG Chem, would likely come by the end of the summer.
Source (Reuters)
Thanks to Kent Beuchert for the tip!
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June 13th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
I live less than 20 mile from work so this works.
After all, I can save $5-10k if I can talk my company into letting have a plug. Not a bad deal.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
“cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more”
!!??
June 13th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
It’s good for GM to keep those options open, but they really need to focus on the 40 mile config, because once you start talking about changing the target, engineers back off their goals.
Keep the pressure on, and don’t let anyone / anything divert you from your goal! Stay focused!
June 13th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
While a bit disappointing, this is probably the right direction for reasons of not only price but also weight.
The latter reason, weight, should not be under-appreciated. A lighter car will have better mileage after the charge in the battery runs out, will require a less radical chassis design, will result in more standard dynamics (kinematics) for the car, etc.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
They could offer it as a 20 miler package, with an option to upgrade later to a 40 mile package for a small additional premium. Swap it out - swap it in. But absolutely NOT a leased battery package.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I would be excited about a smaller sized car (maybe Chevy Aveo sized or a little bigger) with a 20 mile battery pack. Maybe because of the smaller pack they could bring back the 5th seat.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
The idea of an electric vehicle that will only travel 20 miles per charge is not very exciting. Might as well produce a series hybrid.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I read this today on another site. I thought WOW they are listening to us. Several people have mentioned a shorter range on the batteries. Lyle I think your site may have some sway with GM.
Take Care
Arch
June 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Well it pretty much is a series hybrid…with a bit of free electric range at the start.
I like this idea. It certainly shouldn’t derail the 40 mile version at all but if they want to make a 20 mile Volt available for ~$5000 less then I think that’s a good idea. Everyone has different driving needs and a 20 mile volt would certainly appeal to a portion of the driving public who don’t need 40 miles.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
The 20 Mile’r is nice if it was offered as an option. Standard configuration could be the 40 mile’r edition. Although, this is usually opposite to the way vehicles are configured as the base model is usually the cheapest. I sincerely doubt the 20 mile’r would be 1/2 of the 40 mile’r in price, but it could substantially bring the Volt in to a real world price range that the bulk of us could afford. Pretty thought provoking. I hope GM considers this seriously.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
___________________________________________________
At only 20miles pure EV rang, the public will not easily perceive the benefits of a VOLT plug-in being much different than the current non plug-in hybrid offerings.
It will take a 40+ pure EV range for the AH-HA-I-GET-IT factor to kick in. Offering both 20 & 40 overly dilutes and complicates the VOLT message.
___________________________________________________
June 13th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
It seems like we are seeing each of the specifications of the original Volt concept fall by the wayside, one by one. Appearance price, performance, range. At least the concept car — as a concept — was a brief shining moment.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
The cost of the batteries is rumoured to be $10-12g, so it seems that a 20 mile volt would save about $5-6g.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
I’m also doubtful about a 20 mile range cutting the price of the vehicle in half. The RM for the batt are expensive, but it’s the development of this battery and its mgmt system that are making it so expensive.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
I believe we understand this part of Mr Posawatz comments: ” we will not underprice this vehicle.” It sounds like $40K, $50K, or higher.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I’ll take one, ASAFP!
June 13th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
#12 RB:
The 20 mile’r is a concession for affordability sake, and more widespread adoption. I don’t look at it as a defeat as you may be implying. I agree that 40 miles or more is ideal, but not for everyone’s pocket book. For the person who absolutley has to have a Volt, a lower priced 20 mile’r may be sufficient, and still gets the car out there and noticed. Look at the new Camaro for instance. Most would never buy one with less than a V8. However, there is a smaller minority who would accept a V6 with less horsepower, torque, etc., at a lower price point, and still feel like they’re on top of the world because they have one of the coolest cars made.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Exactly what I want!!!!
June 13th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
If it’s half the price, it’s a no brainer for me. I’m getting the 20 miler. My commute is less than 10 miles to work, and I’m trying to convince the company to install a charging system at the parking lot.
But, I don’t think we’re going to get a good price anytime soon. If the dealerships for the PT Cruiser and MINI Cooper could mark the prices up significantly and take deposits, the situation with the Volt will be ridiculous. I may have to wait until 2012, which by then will hopefully have some plugin competition.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I’m left wondering.
It sounds like what a lot of people have been asking for, but I have to wonder whether it is just a warmup for even lower expectations.
The batteries have the capacity
The engineers have the sagacity
To end our useless toil for oil
Deliver the Volt (as promised)
Don’t let the momentum spoil
June 13th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
#17 Schmeltz
I agree and understand that as Mr Podsawatz said GM is trying to make the car cost half as much (presumably about $50K/2 =$25K) so as to bring it into a price range that more people will consider and that can sell in high volume. No doubt the battery has to be a big component of that change. (He didn’t say that it was everything that would change.)
As another step along an incremental path of reduction in specs, it looks to me like the Volt is essentially sliding backward toward Prius specs. Saying ‘Prius specs’ requires some guessing at what the Prius will be in 2010 (probably about the same but a small plug-in range). It looks like GM has the hope that the Volt will be about the same as Prius in performance and price in say 2010-12. Most likely this goal is the best GM can do. The Prius is a fine car,and it will be good for Chevy to have something similar by then.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I’ll now officially take credit for being prescient. LAst year I suggested
to mt neighbor that GM should option the battery pack size while the prices are high - allowing those on a tighter budget to delay buying a 40 mile pack until later when battery prices make their long predicted downturn, and also allowing those who really can get by on 20 miles to be able to take fiscal advantage of that fact. Me?
There aren’t too many places I go where I need a 40 mile range.
20 would just be enough to take care of the vast majority of trips. Even if it didn’t quite cover it, the amount of liquid fuel I’d use would
be almost trivial.
Now, how about a 30 mile range option also? What’s so hard about making multiple pack sizes an option? Just make sure that in the future the owner can add to his pack without having to tear the car apart in the process.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
#5, Ryan Plut said:
I could get by on the 20-mile range for my “normal” commuting … however, option to upgrade to a the 40-mile package at a later date would be great. Am I the only person how wouldn’t mind leasing the battery?
#6, Brian M said:
The “lack” of a fifth seat is making me consider alternatives - such as the Th!nk oX. (http://think.no/think/content/view/full/261). If GM can “add” the fifth seat back again - it would make my choice a lot easier.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
#12 RB: Yes! “appearance, price, performance and range” all falling by the wayside and we are still 2 years out. assuming 60 mpg hybrids two years from now, 20 miles electric ought to equate to eliminating about 2 pints of gas a day and end our dependence on foreign oil once and for all. pretty exciting! now if GM was really serious about this car, they would pull out the air conditioner, three of the seats, use 6 inch wheels and maybe we could save 3 pints a day. hello statik!
June 13th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Okay - 40 mile range = too expensive
20 mile range = underpromised
30 mile range and price it right = 68% of everyone is happy!
…I mean, it’s not like a Prius can do it…
June 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Cut the cost by half or more? Wow. I’d certainly prefer the 40 mile range but half the cost is something to consider.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Making the battery packs swapable would be great. I just put more ram in my computer yesterday. It’d be cool if i were able to upgrade my volt in the futue too. This could make it afordable in the short term and in the long term you may end up spending more for upgrades so GM would make out like a bandit too. Half off? That must mean just the battery must cost like 15-20k. That’d make the volt about 20k and then probably get a few thousand from govt incentives too… Oh man
I hope they do make it easy to replace the battery with a larger one or else I would still go wtih the more expensive longer range model.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
The economics of having a “40-mile” capacity for those with a very short commute never made any sense for either consumer or automaker. That’s been a problem with Volt’s “one size fits all” approach from the beginning. To reach a wide market (high volume sales), you have to offer diverse options.
For example, both Camry-Hybrid and Prius use HSD, but the configuration of each is quite different.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I’m glad Tony Posawatz finally told the truth to snap me out of this fantasy. The technology is way too expensive. If the Volt is over $30,000, it will not be a practical solution.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
I can imagine a half-sized battery pack with just the cross of the T but not the stem. That would eliminate the hump and allow a 3-seat rear bench.
However, as an apartment dweller, I’d really prefer a non-plug-in version with a flex-fuel constant-speed gas turbine generator (not a reciprocating piston design) that powers the induction motor through an ultracap buffer. This “fuel-electric vehicle” (FEV) configuration should exceed the fuel efficiency of a Prius-like HEV. The plug-in Volt should also use a gas turbine generator.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
if the car get only 20 miles per a charge then count me OUT! Most american drive more than 20 miles. Once again, an american company lowering their standards. I’m very disappointed in this news. This is unbelievable. I just want to remind GM that Toyota and Honda…and Tesla is right on their A#@. I had really high hopes and was going to purchase one right off the lot to show my commitment to GM. So, I beg GM not to compromise. I beg all of you to let GM know that you don’t want them to compromise.
mike
June 13th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
That is not great news from GM. It shows they are still not focused on where and how to go. In that scenario there could even be a rethinking to go back to NiMH battery pack for 20-mile ranger. If that happens Prius is going to give real competition to Volt
June 13th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
This seems weak 1st they say it will do 40 miles and keep the car under 30K and now the cheaper (20 mile), I bet will be the under 30K
June 13th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
It all depends on how much of a price difference it is.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
I wouldn’t be too impressed. If that’s what its going to take to break the $30,000 mark, I might as well go with a Prius. At today’s prices, 20 mile AER will only save me about $500 a year. It wouldn’t pay for itself for 20 years. It also wouldn’t make as much of a dent in imported oil. People who might find this car practical aren’t big gas users to begin with. Lastly, if GM’s going to decrease my weekly AER by 100 miles, they at least better go back to the 12 gallon tank.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
I think it’s Great!
By getting an all electric 20 miles/day in the hands of more people GM is accelerating the already swift moving path AWAY FROM OIL.
That first silent 20 miles without gas will be addicting…
More people will demand plug-ins after owning one!
Then…
June 13th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Don’t you just love trial balloons ?
Just trot out a company spokesperson that no one’s ever heard of, and get him / her to make a highly controversial statement about the Volt. If the trial balloon gets shot down, blame the statement on “miscommunication” between management. Oops, our bad !
Here’s the deal - GM is spreading it’s risk, in case the government doesn’t pony up the taxpayer dollars to fund rebates for the Volt 40 mile model. Why should GM sell the Volt 40 below their cost when there is taxpayer money to finance the full price tag ? (Remember, this is from GM’s viewpoint - they want to make money)
The Volt 20 would still put a huge dent in my gasoline usage. Even though I drive 42.5 miles to work (one way) every day, the Volt 20 would get me to work and back on 1 gallon of gas (assuming I get to plug in at work). I currently use 4 gallons a day (Honda Odyssey). Let’s see, that’s a savings of $12.00 a day for 3 unused gallons of gas. Times 6 days, times 4 weeks, that’s $288 a month saved. That’s $3,456.00 a year - not too shabby for a Volt 20 !
I would save more with the Volt 40, but if GM is determined to kill the Volt 40 by going crazy with the price tag, I can’t stop them. And Volt tax rebates depend on who’s sitting in Air Force One after January 20, 2009.
It’s just a trial balloon, people. A lot can happen in the 29 months until the Volt rollout. A lot can go right, a lot can go wrong. We will see.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
If there is an option for 20 mile, then I want an option for double. How about 80 mile range? Better yet, I want a BEV–pure electric with no range extender.
20 MILES WILL NOT BE SUFFICIENT TO WEEN US OFF OIL.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Well that sucks. I want more rather than less. 101 mile round trip daily commute with option to plug in at work. 40 - 50 mile range would almost get me there with using gas. 20 mile range doesn’t fit.
It does however, make me curious about the price difference.
And won’t the new plugin Prius get 10 miles on a charge?
June 13th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
I don’t like where this is going. Sounds like they’re preparing us for bad news.
On the other hand, I’m sure there are plenty of folks who could make do with a 20-mile Volt: But this won’t be the game-changer we all hoped for.
My commute is just over 40 miles, I was hoping that this would turn out to be a conservative estimate, not an impossibly-priced option.
Maybe I’m getting worked up over nothing, and the “Model 20″ might be just what it seems on the surface: a way to spread the promise, not dilute it.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
A shorter-range Volt will encourage that many more people to plug in at work, if their bosses agree. What happens to our existing electrical infrastructure when half the recharging happens in the daytime and not off-peak, at night?
What day is this again?
Oh yeah, the 13th.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
My wife and I live about 8 miles from our respective offices. I would like the 20 mile version for both of us and my teenagers. I am sure the cars will be identical except for the batteries. This is a great ideal for people with shorter commutes. I would buy 4 Volts today if they were available. I have a family of 4 and spent over $11,000 on gas last year.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
I understand your disappointment, Jackson. You wanted a gas free car. At 85 miles round trip to work and back, I wanted a car that would use only a fraction of the gas I use now.
If GM is going to go nuts, and try to recoop their development costs in the first year with the price of the Volt 40, it will become a “Jay Leno” car - a plaything of the rich, like the Tesla electric car. GM’s much hailed “moon-shot” Volt 40 will turn into a moon fizzle. The Volt 20 is ok, but GM never seems to miss an opportunity to disappoint. Such a shame.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
What are the driving conditions for the 40 or 20 miles? Is it based on the city driving cycle? If so then the highway commuters won’t get 20 miles from the 20 mile pack nor will they get 40 miles from the 40 mile pack. We Need data on miles per charge for highway/city driving to determine if the 20 or 40 mile pack will properly service our needs.
Since I have a mix of highway/city driving, I was expecting the 40 mile range would really provide 25-30 miles of travel between charges. The proposal for the 20 mile pack of mixed driving might give 10 to 15 miles per charge. That kills the goal of “gas free” for me.
I doubt they will design the car to allow a 20 mile pack car to take and additional 20 mile pack a few years after purchase. GM would rather have the customer purchase a new car again to acquire the 40 mile range. They’re in the business to sell cars. You’ll have to get the expansion pack from a third party auto-supplier. Won’t that be fun.
From a laymans perspective, GM must distribute the cost of this first eflex car across all models of cars GM produces and expect true profit in a few years. It would be foolish greed on their part to try and recoup all costs in a few years.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
This can be good - meeting your budget if you’re not going to use 40 miles a day.
a 20 miler could get me to school and back using gas for like 1.5km.. not bad, but a 40 miler could get me there with no gas at all
If they do this, they should make it expandable - perhaps break the pack up into 10 mile chunks? You can buy more range for X more dollars (up to a certain max when you run out of space to put more in)
then they can have a 10 mile for (probably) cheaper than the plug-in prius, as well as offer more range for those who need it.
And maybe you only need 20 miles today, but you change jobs in three years, and need 30 miles. No problem, you can get an expansion put in for only $3000 (made up number).
Or in five years, maybe battery density has changed completely, and you can now get 100 miles in the same space as that 10 mile pack. For $X you can now make your volt go 10x as far.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
I don’t know what we should make of this. 40 was ALWAYS the benchmark they set.
But having said that, if GM can sell a 20 mpc Volt for the price of a Prius- then maybe that is a real interesting battleground. Going head to head on price and then the comparisons in cost would be clear. Remember - a plugin Prius will cost maybe 4k more than regular Prius. So 30k Prius plugin against a 30k Volt would be very interesting.
Having a 40 mpc version that is 8k more than a prius makes it less clear to many people about cost benefit.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
I hate to get technical, but there may be problems with a 20 mile range version of the Volt. Decreasing the size of the battery has 2 effects:
1) Decreased energy storage, which translates to a lower all electric range.
2) Decreased power, which translates to lower acceleration.
So we might be talking about 0-60 in 12 seconds instead of 7. Given the driving habits in the U.S., I think this could be a deal breaker.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
A Volt with a 20 mile electric range may excite some of you, but it doesn’t do a thing for me!
Did anyone else pick up on the comment Posawatz made? He said “GM had been approached by utilities interested in using recycled Volt batteries as a power storage system, a secondary market that could bring down the cost of the Volt and other plug-in vehicles for consumers.”
Why the heck are they having those conversations now? Since it will be 10+ years down the road after the Volt comes out before any battery packs would be available for use by the utility companies, I can only interpret those discussions one way — GM plans to lease the battery pack. If so, it is definitely a deal breaker for me!
June 13th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Puuleease read the article Lyle was paraphrasing and linked to. This is the exact quote:
“In the future, GM could offer a battery pack with a 20-mile electric-only range to bring costs down, Posawatz said, part of an effort to cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more.”
This not a backtrack, compromise, or anything else even remotely negative. GM recognizes that one size and one price does fit all. They are thinking progressively about how to reach a larger consumer base with their E-FLEX powertrain. I wish he also spoke about future 60 mile packs, CUV applications, small pickups, and high end small CTSes.
For my household one 40 mile and one 20 mile Volt be fantastic, but don’t some 1/2 price 20 mile tin can. I want a full Volt minus $5-6K. Also, if utilities are eager enough to take the battery off leases and thus guaranteeing high residual values for those leases, I’m all over it. This will allow the car to be bought for considerably less money and only pay a small monthly battery lease payment (roughly $120 for 5yr lease, $10,000 pack, $5000 residual value). When the lease is up, I can buy or lease a new pack. Hopefully GM is smart and they design for upgrading the pack, thus I can purchase the latest technology. All expectations are that 5 years after the Volt release batteries will be significantly less expensive and more energy dense.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Estero #48
Could be, but they might also be thinking about trade-in on an upgrade. That’s a lot more appealing to me. I’ve said it before,
but since I know I’m not going to get one of the first I hope those that can afford one help to bring the cost down for 2nd gen on.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Good greif, give people more options and they complain. I for one and a good portion of the population don’t need the 40 mile range. My commute is 12 miles one way. Why should I have to pay for the 40 mile range when I can pay a lot less. It is not like YOU can’t buy the 40 mile range car. So what exactly is your problem with having a freaking choice????
I suspect the cutting the cost by half comment is a little over blown, but it might be closer to the truth than you think. By lowering the range of SOME of the Volts that means they can produce more volts as it is likely battery production will be the limiting factor. If half of the people buy the 20 mile range version then they can up production by 50%. This will help recoup research and development cost quicker as well as get it into more people hands, which would be good for GM.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I believe a semi affordable ($30k) 20 mile AER Chevy Volt is a better solution than a ($45k) 40 mile AER Caddy Volt that most people can’t afford. It will still beat the Gen 3 Prius in AER and remain somewhat price competitive.
Did I mention the “plug free” Volt ? Wouldn’t it be nice if there were an American Made alternative to the Prius that’s competively priced, gets 50 mpg and apartment dwellers could own ?
Compare that to what you drive now ;>)
June 13th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
A 20-mile AER is nothing short of bait-and-switch at this point. Not cool, Mr. Posawatz. This will be yet another nasty knock to GM’s credibility (geez, do they have any left?) if it comes to pass.
Toyota found a way to make the unbalanced economics of the Prius work during its early years. GM will likewise have to find a way, while keeping the promises they made, or the ‘Volt Revolution’ will simply fail. I sure hope that doesn’t happen.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
#49 koz Careful what you ask for, you might get it!
If you have ever read the lease terms for GM vehicles and then gave serious consideration to the terms that might be likely with the Chevy Volt battery pack, it gives one many, many reasons to be cautious!
June 13th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Dave G
Don’t hate to get technical. We like technical here. Don’t forget decreased weight.
I say, if a Volt-20 is what it takes to get the Volt going, do it. We need to get the Volt established. a Volt-20 would meet my needs. ICE-based cars have different engine options, why shouldn’t Volts have different battery options? I don’t really need a 40-mile AER, so I don’t want to pay for more car than I need. I’ll buy the Volt-20.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
#47 DaveG
“2) Decreased power, which translates to lower acceleration.”
While this appears to be a perfectly logical conclusion, the opposite may true. If GM chooses A123 (perhaps LG Chem too but I haven’t seen much about chemistry specs), the 40 mile AER Volt will be significantly overpowered as far as the power delivery capabikities of the battery are concerned. From what I’ve read of A123’s, even a 20 mile AER battery will fully power the Volt and the 150lbs or so less weight will increase performance!
June 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Would it be a 20-mile AER at end-of-life? Perhaps it would have a greater AER when it is newer.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Sorry, I may have been unclear. I meant it’s a bait-and-switch if it’s the ONLY option. It’s a little different if both 20- and 40- mile versions are available.
But even that’s true only to a point; the 40 must still be a reasonable price overall (not $45k or something ridiculous like that).
June 13th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
#50 Grizzly
You’re right! GM might be thinking about trade-in on an upgrade, but I doubt it. What is the incentive for anyone to trade-in a battery pack before it falls to between 70% and 80% of their power remaining? It may not be the latest and greatest, but it is still serving the purpose of a 40 mile electric range.
The only reason I can imagine one considering a battery exchange is if a new battery pack would give a significantly greater electric range. Even then, the trade-in would have to be cost effective.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Estero #59
“The only reason I can imagine is if a new battery pack would give a significantly greater electric range”
*** *** ***
Bingo! But then again, who knows? What I would say is that if GM had some sort of affordable plan for an upgrade path it would have to involve a extracting the residual value out of the trade-in. This would have to add to the demand for the Volt as no one would want to buy anything that will obsolesce in a short amount of time.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
20 miles is only acceptable as a first step but within 5 years there had better be a 100 mile AER or GM is in trouble. The competition will only be stunned for a few years.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
If they do this, Toyota will beat them in every conceivable way. The Prius plug-in is already making headlines and television news.
GM needs to swing for the fences and execute (including an affordable price, around 30k), or just forget it.
The Prius will do 20 miles w/out gas. Why then is the Volt special? Because it’s not a parallel hybrid? Alright. But that’s not a game changer.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Last monday I traveled about 12 miles to get a N.Y. State inspection on my newly acquired 1980 Bradley G T Electric That I’m using for research to develope an E-REV recharging station, with half the battery pack weak and 1 completely dead battery I almost made it back ……..20 miles don’t cut it ………The G T should do 50 to 85 miles according to 1980 owners manual……and I’m determined to get 50 to 85 miles out of it !!!!!! …….Charged on my alternative energy system……….. With 22,000 engineers on their payroll G.M. should be able to get at least 40 miles on a charge 30 years later……LETS GIT-ER DONE G.M. ……Now is not the time to get cold feet !!!!
June 13th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
20 miles all electric is an OPTION people!!!!
Maybe if I repeat it enough everyone will finally get it that this is a good thing.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Repeat all you want, Omega-man, but if having an unremarkable 20 mi car serves as an excuse to have an overly expensive 40 mi one, it’s insane.
Unless they set huge goals and meet them, Toyota WILL beat them. Period.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:12 am
20 miles would be to fail and to fail is not an option…….Nite-nite, It’s way past my bed time…..:):):)
June 14th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Surely Toyota will beat GM and GM is heading towards bankruptcy. Sorry for those still in that broken state, GET OUT and work for the Japs, they are nicer than Rick Wagoner.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:23 am
Did you guys read the same article I did above?? From what I read, the initial Volt will be the 40 mpc version. However, it is going to be pretty expensive, due mostly to the expensive batteries. The quote was “in the future, GM could offer a battery pack with a 20-mile electric-only range to bring costs down in an effort to cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more.” I suspect the 40-mile range battery pack will cost at least $15,000 to possibly over $20,000. The price of a 40-mile battery pack will probably be as much as the car itself without a battery pack, thus the possible options of leasing the battery pack, or an option of a smaller battery pack for half the price of the larger pack. In other words, about $10,000 difference in the cost of the two versions of the Volt. The Volt has never been presented as a vehicle for people who drive long distances to work, but as a vehicle for people who drive less than 12,000 miles per year total, or less than 1,000 miles per month. The 20-mile battery pack would be perfect for me, as it would suffice for all my driving except for one 70-mile trip per month. Even the 40-mile battery pack would not cover that trip, so why should I pay an extra $10,000 or so for it? Those who need the extra range will have to pony up the extra cash, just like they have to pay more for gasoline today.
BTW, about a year ago I was interested in purchasing a hybrid vehicle. I first looked at a Ford Escape hybrid, then decided against it when I found out that neither the heater or the air conditioner would work without the IC engine running, negating much of the increase in fuel milage over a regular Escape. I also researched the Honda Civic hybrid and the Prius among others. They both have electrically operated air conditioners, but not heaters. The only Prius on my local lot was over $27,000 and the dealer would not knock off a cent from the sticker price (in fact, it had ‘dealer add-ons’ in addition to factory sticker). I also checked out the replacement cost of the NiMH battery, as an estimate was given to an owner with a battery that would no longer hold a good charge. Replacement was over $7500 for that small capacity NiMH battery. Li-ion batteries are much more expensive than NiMH and even the 20-mile version of the Volt battery has a larger capacity.
I like the Volt, but don’t expect miracles people.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:37 am
This whole thing about Toyota beating GM rhetoic seems a bit silly. Why are some people always talking about whose car is the best? Reality check everyone: different people will find that a different car is the “best” for them.
Look at all the manufacturers and models of car on the road. If there was only one “best” car, we’d all be driving the same friggin’ car! It’s personal preference of styling, power, size, fuel economy, etc.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:47 am
They freaking complain when the price is high and they complain when the are given an option. I guess you only want one color to be offered as well. Thank goodness you people aren’t making the decisions.
June 14th, 2008 at 1:49 am
For a lot of drivers 20 miles between charges is sufficient, especially in small towns and for retired drivers. For drivers in large cities with longer commutes 40 miles between charges would likely be the way to go.
Maybe GM is working on batteries that give a lot more than 40 miles, wouldn’t that be a nice surprise.
If drivers are going to use the gas tank for extended trips, they’ll have to use the gas regularly or it will go bad anyways.
June 14th, 2008 at 2:15 am
One thing is for sure, no one car will please everybody.
I am getting so f’n tired of technology being out their to get away from it and automakers trying to find out how to 1) Make you come in every 3 months for maintenance and 2) Have to have some reliance of fueling stations.
GM’s active management sucks because it keeps all cylinders running when they don’t have to be without a manual override. E85 still requires some oil and refueling stations. And this is falling in that same line of GM frustration from my perspective.
The concept of a battery buffer so that the ICE can always rotate at optimum RPM (with no transmission) is a great idea for the 1st step in plug-in hybrids with GM who, until now had no hybrids. It is a good innovation that is about 3 years too late (should have been out when gas was $2.50/gal. . I’m not looking for another petro car at $4+/gal. It’s like pulling teeth from the automakers, except pulling teeth is a whole lot easier.
Give me an affordable all-electric already! If you need to cut costs, cut the ICE and everything that relies on fueling stations and routine maintenance. I mean really, get the hint! Do I need a 220 miles per charge, sporty looking 0 to 60 in 3.9 sec Tesla roadster? No! I need 150 MPC sedan under $40K.
You give me that, and I will be at your sales door tomorrow!
June 14th, 2008 at 2:39 am
I don’t know what most of you people are smoking, but it must be good
READ the srticle & 57Silvers comment. [#68]
omegaman you are so right brother. At the risk of upsetting everyone I want different colors as well!
So here’s my take on it.
Version one: release date 2010
40 mile AER range = 4 seats. (You want it you pay)
Version two: release date 2012?
20 mile AER range = 5 seats (Much cheaper)
40 mile AER range = 4 seats (cheaper)
50 mile AER range = 4 seats (Version one price)
For the above three a 20 mile Hymotion type add on pack option.
Thanks for giving us choices GM. ******* GO VOLT *********
June 14th, 2008 at 3:16 am
Everyone wants everything for nothing. No surprise here. As has been stated by Omega, NZ and countless others, please understand that all this stuff is expensive to develop, especially ground breaking technology like this. VERY EXPENSIVE. We should be grateful that GM is finally pushing the envelope to get this car to market. The GM of the past 30 years would have never lifted a finger on a project like this of their own origin.
I’m in the camp that thinks that the 20 AER offering is a step in the right direction. Sales of these may take off and as I’ve said in previous posts, if there is an upgrade direction for these it may very well be the lining in the cloud toward getting this off the ground.
I’m not always the easiest person to get along with, but what I’m seeing from GM is a sincere effort to combat all the forces that would stand in the way of success. It’s in everyone ’s interest that the Volt succeeds. So why not instead of bitching and griping offer support and suggestions?
Remember, that we’re not like all the screw-loose tree-hugging EV evangelists who tote Bull-horns and shout at traffic and achieve nothing. We’re sensible people and we’ll work with GM to get something done, and that’s the difference!
June 14th, 2008 at 3:34 am
How about “BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED”?
That would cut the initial cost dramatically!
Publish the specs, setup a certification process, and let the battery manufacturers take it from there.
GM can focus on the car, the motor, and controller … it’s what they do best, have plenty of experience, and are certainly capable of mass producing everything but the batteries.
It might spawn a new industry, encouraging competition in a free market system.
It might even move the release date up to 2009.
June 14th, 2008 at 3:38 am
When they say 20 mile, or 40 mile, has any site mentioned what the weather will do to those ratings? Winter weather seems to kill car batteries, will it also lower the volt’s battery range? Or 95-110 days in the summer, will the volt be able to handle it?
June 14th, 2008 at 4:00 am
Eric #75 and Russ #76,
Good questions. Eric, it’s important to understand that unlike a Gameboy, or an electric toy, simply “popping” batteries off the shelf into any BEV isn’t possible. The work needed to integrate the management system and power electronics etc. is eeons more sophisticated than popping third party batts into a Gameboy.
Russ #76, again, this lends itself to the challenges at hand. There have been EV evangelists on this site who claim that if GM just used Nimh batteries the Volt could be out by this fall. Nonsense! These people are driving Nimh cars in the mild climate of So. Ca. And aside from the fact that they have no idea what it takes to develop a vehicle, they are clueless. Nimh is far more affected by temperature extremes than is Li-ion, but it is still another development hurdle at hand. People who live in Green Bay will need to operate this vehicle just as those who live in Palm Springs. This may clue you in to the sophistication of the BMS and the batt pack’s thermal control system.
June 14th, 2008 at 4:02 am
Eric Marshall
For Version two thats a great idea. Wish I had thought of it to add to my list of options
For version one it won’t work, not enough time. The production can not be moved up as the factory will not be finished retooling until early - mid 2010 anyway.
Grizzly, I don’t see why given an exact set of specs a third party can’t design and make a battery. It would also let GM off the hook for battery replacement issues. Of course if someone got a dud battery GM would be blamed when the car got towed. Maybe a different trim of some sort? JMHO.
Russ: The range will be shorter in cold weather, summer will have no effect, other than running the A/C. But that’s why the engine is there. A lead foot, like me, will make the most difference though.
June 14th, 2008 at 4:35 am
Dear all,
Sorry to come back to the last 40 comments of yesterday’s post and particularly on my post #135 and sorry to cite myself , I treat my ego :
“For the Bertrand competition between the Prius and the Volt, I think we may refer to the previous discussion about Toyota. The Prius is converging toward the Volt and remember the discussion about the external shape of the Volt, some were thinking it would ressemble the Prius.”
And today GM says it is making the Volt converge in price and range toward the Prius … the game for this special kind of competition is on …
Let’s wait for Statik’s interpretation of the facts.
JC
June 14th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Jean-Charles
As long as they both get there. Also the Volt better look different
Just waiting for my R/H drive version.
June 14th, 2008 at 4:56 am
Sounds good GM, release the 40 mile version first, then offer the 20 mile model to those individuals who’s needs are less, but the 40 mile VOLT comes first! We’ve been hearing those specs for 18 months now, changing down to 20 miles on the initial VOLTS will cause too much customer confusion & disappointment.
June 14th, 2008 at 6:18 am
I hate it when GM does this: promises one thing then takes it away…
If GM keeps on jacking with the public look for Toyota to sell even more cars…
Somebody needs to slap a CEO back to reality.
June 14th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Crows GM hasn’t taken ANYTHING away. Did you read the article??? Crows what is it that GM took away??? Apparently GM has overestimated the intelligence of the car buying public.
I am now convencied this is a bad move. I was wrong. I stand corrected. How dare GM take away what they have promised. Dang it they promised a 40 mile all electric range and now they are talking about offering both a 20 AND a 40 mile version. Fore shame. And just when I thought GM was moving forward.
Greg and Sue and Bobby can’t afford the 40mile version… why is GM catering to them. If you can’t afford a 40 mile version you shouldn’t be allowed to own a volt… even if your commute is only 5 miles and you don’t need to spend an extra 12 thousand dollars on a battery you will never use.
June 14th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Kevin #62, Yes, an unmodified Prius would indeed go 20 miles without gas - as long as you did not reach 40 MPH. The gas engine would automatically kick in at that point.
About leases - GM mistake alert ! Leasing Volts would be a deal-breaker for me, and (I suspect) for a lot of other potential Volt owners. I put 25000 miles a year on a car. There is no lease on Earth which would allow such use. Didn’t GM learn anything from the EV-1 ? I certainly did - Never allow GM to lease you an electric vehicle, unless you like seeing your Volt crushed and melted after GM revokes your lease. GM can