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GM May Offer a 20-Mile Range Version of the Chevy Volt
One of the best things about the Volt is being able to drive without gas for most of one’s daily driving needs. It is clear though, the 40-mile range lithium-ion batteries are going to be expensive, limiting how low GM will be able to sell the Volt for.
In a new interview, Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz noted “the nature of this technology is that it’s going to be expensive, and we will not underprice this vehicle.”
Although he indicated GM will likely opt to slowly ramp up initial Volt production “to make sure things are bulletproof”, he re-iterated GMs commitment to make this a massively produced vehicle stating, “to make this thing a sustainable business, we have to drive it to volume, and to get there we have to work through these first few years where it’s going to challenge us mightily.”
He brought up the possibility of a lower range, less expensive version of the Volt, per the article, “in the future, GM could offer a battery pack with a 20-mile electric-only range to bring costs down, part of an effort to cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more.”
He also went on to confirm an announcement on the battery supplier, A123 vs LG Chem, would likely come by the end of the summer.
Source (Reuters)
Thanks to Kent Beuchert for the tip!
Popularity: 8% [?]
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(12 votes, average: 4.83 out of 5) 
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229 Responses to “GM May Offer a 20-Mile Range Version of the Chevy Volt”
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June 13th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
I live less than 20 mile from work so this works.
After all, I can save $5-10k if I can talk my company into letting have a plug. Not a bad deal.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
“cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more”
!!??
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
It’s good for GM to keep those options open, but they really need to focus on the 40 mile config, because once you start talking about changing the target, engineers back off their goals.
Keep the pressure on, and don’t let anyone / anything divert you from your goal! Stay focused!
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
While a bit disappointing, this is probably the right direction for reasons of not only price but also weight.
The latter reason, weight, should not be under-appreciated. A lighter car will have better mileage after the charge in the battery runs out, will require a less radical chassis design, will result in more standard dynamics (kinematics) for the car, etc.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
They could offer it as a 20 miler package, with an option to upgrade later to a 40 mile package for a small additional premium. Swap it out - swap it in. But absolutely NOT a leased battery package.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I would be excited about a smaller sized car (maybe Chevy Aveo sized or a little bigger) with a 20 mile battery pack. Maybe because of the smaller pack they could bring back the 5th seat.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
The idea of an electric vehicle that will only travel 20 miles per charge is not very exciting. Might as well produce a series hybrid.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I read this today on another site. I thought WOW they are listening to us. Several people have mentioned a shorter range on the batteries. Lyle I think your site may have some sway with GM.
Take Care
Arch
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Well it pretty much is a series hybrid…with a bit of free electric range at the start.
I like this idea. It certainly shouldn’t derail the 40 mile version at all but if they want to make a 20 mile Volt available for ~$5000 less then I think that’s a good idea. Everyone has different driving needs and a 20 mile volt would certainly appeal to a portion of the driving public who don’t need 40 miles.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
The 20 Mile’r is nice if it was offered as an option. Standard configuration could be the 40 mile’r edition. Although, this is usually opposite to the way vehicles are configured as the base model is usually the cheapest. I sincerely doubt the 20 mile’r would be 1/2 of the 40 mile’r in price, but it could substantially bring the Volt in to a real world price range that the bulk of us could afford. Pretty thought provoking. I hope GM considers this seriously.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
___________________________________________________
At only 20miles pure EV rang, the public will not easily perceive the benefits of a VOLT plug-in being much different than the current non plug-in hybrid offerings.
It will take a 40+ pure EV range for the AH-HA-I-GET-IT factor to kick in. Offering both 20 & 40 overly dilutes and complicates the VOLT message.
___________________________________________________
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
It seems like we are seeing each of the specifications of the original Volt concept fall by the wayside, one by one. Appearance price, performance, range. At least the concept car — as a concept — was a brief shining moment.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
The cost of the batteries is rumoured to be $10-12g, so it seems that a 20 mile volt would save about $5-6g.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
I’m also doubtful about a 20 mile range cutting the price of the vehicle in half. The RM for the batt are expensive, but it’s the development of this battery and its mgmt system that are making it so expensive.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
I believe we understand this part of Mr Posawatz comments: ” we will not underprice this vehicle.” It sounds like $40K, $50K, or higher.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I’ll take one, ASAFP!
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
#12 RB:
The 20 mile’r is a concession for affordability sake, and more widespread adoption. I don’t look at it as a defeat as you may be implying. I agree that 40 miles or more is ideal, but not for everyone’s pocket book. For the person who absolutley has to have a Volt, a lower priced 20 mile’r may be sufficient, and still gets the car out there and noticed. Look at the new Camaro for instance. Most would never buy one with less than a V8. However, there is a smaller minority who would accept a V6 with less horsepower, torque, etc., at a lower price point, and still feel like they’re on top of the world because they have one of the coolest cars made.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Exactly what I want!!!!
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
If it’s half the price, it’s a no brainer for me. I’m getting the 20 miler. My commute is less than 10 miles to work, and I’m trying to convince the company to install a charging system at the parking lot.
But, I don’t think we’re going to get a good price anytime soon. If the dealerships for the PT Cruiser and MINI Cooper could mark the prices up significantly and take deposits, the situation with the Volt will be ridiculous. I may have to wait until 2012, which by then will hopefully have some plugin competition.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I’m left wondering.
It sounds like what a lot of people have been asking for, but I have to wonder whether it is just a warmup for even lower expectations.
The batteries have the capacity
The engineers have the sagacity
To end our useless toil for oil
Deliver the Volt (as promised)
Don’t let the momentum spoil
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
#17 Schmeltz
I agree and understand that as Mr Podsawatz said GM is trying to make the car cost half as much (presumably about $50K/2 =$25K) so as to bring it into a price range that more people will consider and that can sell in high volume. No doubt the battery has to be a big component of that change. (He didn’t say that it was everything that would change.)
As another step along an incremental path of reduction in specs, it looks to me like the Volt is essentially sliding backward toward Prius specs. Saying ‘Prius specs’ requires some guessing at what the Prius will be in 2010 (probably about the same but a small plug-in range). It looks like GM has the hope that the Volt will be about the same as Prius in performance and price in say 2010-12. Most likely this goal is the best GM can do. The Prius is a fine car,and it will be good for Chevy to have something similar by then.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I’ll now officially take credit for being prescient. LAst year I suggested
to mt neighbor that GM should option the battery pack size while the prices are high - allowing those on a tighter budget to delay buying a 40 mile pack until later when battery prices make their long predicted downturn, and also allowing those who really can get by on 20 miles to be able to take fiscal advantage of that fact. Me?
There aren’t too many places I go where I need a 40 mile range.
20 would just be enough to take care of the vast majority of trips. Even if it didn’t quite cover it, the amount of liquid fuel I’d use would
be almost trivial.
Now, how about a 30 mile range option also? What’s so hard about making multiple pack sizes an option? Just make sure that in the future the owner can add to his pack without having to tear the car apart in the process.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
#5, Ryan Plut said:
I could get by on the 20-mile range for my “normal” commuting … however, option to upgrade to a the 40-mile package at a later date would be great. Am I the only person how wouldn’t mind leasing the battery?
#6, Brian M said:
The “lack” of a fifth seat is making me consider alternatives - such as the Th!nk oX. (http://think.no/think/content/view/full/261). If GM can “add” the fifth seat back again - it would make my choice a lot easier.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
#12 RB: Yes! “appearance, price, performance and range” all falling by the wayside and we are still 2 years out. assuming 60 mpg hybrids two years from now, 20 miles electric ought to equate to eliminating about 2 pints of gas a day and end our dependence on foreign oil once and for all. pretty exciting! now if GM was really serious about this car, they would pull out the air conditioner, three of the seats, use 6 inch wheels and maybe we could save 3 pints a day. hello statik!
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Okay - 40 mile range = too expensive
20 mile range = underpromised
30 mile range and price it right = 68% of everyone is happy!
…I mean, it’s not like a Prius can do it…
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Cut the cost by half or more? Wow. I’d certainly prefer the 40 mile range but half the cost is something to consider.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Making the battery packs swapable would be great. I just put more ram in my computer yesterday. It’d be cool if i were able to upgrade my volt in the futue too. This could make it afordable in the short term and in the long term you may end up spending more for upgrades so GM would make out like a bandit too. Half off? That must mean just the battery must cost like 15-20k. That’d make the volt about 20k and then probably get a few thousand from govt incentives too… Oh man
I hope they do make it easy to replace the battery with a larger one or else I would still go wtih the more expensive longer range model.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
The economics of having a “40-mile” capacity for those with a very short commute never made any sense for either consumer or automaker. That’s been a problem with Volt’s “one size fits all” approach from the beginning. To reach a wide market (high volume sales), you have to offer diverse options.
For example, both Camry-Hybrid and Prius use HSD, but the configuration of each is quite different.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I’m glad Tony Posawatz finally told the truth to snap me out of this fantasy. The technology is way too expensive. If the Volt is over $30,000, it will not be a practical solution.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
I can imagine a half-sized battery pack with just the cross of the T but not the stem. That would eliminate the hump and allow a 3-seat rear bench.
However, as an apartment dweller, I’d really prefer a non-plug-in version with a flex-fuel constant-speed gas turbine generator (not a reciprocating piston design) that powers the induction motor through an ultracap buffer. This “fuel-electric vehicle” (FEV) configuration should exceed the fuel efficiency of a Prius-like HEV. The plug-in Volt should also use a gas turbine generator.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
if the car get only 20 miles per a charge then count me OUT! Most american drive more than 20 miles. Once again, an american company lowering their standards. I’m very disappointed in this news. This is unbelievable. I just want to remind GM that Toyota and Honda…and Tesla is right on their A#@. I had really high hopes and was going to purchase one right off the lot to show my commitment to GM. So, I beg GM not to compromise. I beg all of you to let GM know that you don’t want them to compromise.
mike
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
That is not great news from GM. It shows they are still not focused on where and how to go. In that scenario there could even be a rethinking to go back to NiMH battery pack for 20-mile ranger. If that happens Prius is going to give real competition to Volt
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
This seems weak 1st they say it will do 40 miles and keep the car under 30K and now the cheaper (20 mile), I bet will be the under 30K
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
It all depends on how much of a price difference it is.
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
I wouldn’t be too impressed. If that’s what its going to take to break the $30,000 mark, I might as well go with a Prius. At today’s prices, 20 mile AER will only save me about $500 a year. It wouldn’t pay for itself for 20 years. It also wouldn’t make as much of a dent in imported oil. People who might find this car practical aren’t big gas users to begin with. Lastly, if GM’s going to decrease my weekly AER by 100 miles, they at least better go back to the 12 gallon tank.
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
I think it’s Great!
By getting an all electric 20 miles/day in the hands of more people GM is accelerating the already swift moving path AWAY FROM OIL.
That first silent 20 miles without gas will be addicting…
More people will demand plug-ins after owning one!
Then…
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Don’t you just love trial balloons ?
Just trot out a company spokesperson that no one’s ever heard of, and get him / her to make a highly controversial statement about the Volt. If the trial balloon gets shot down, blame the statement on “miscommunication” between management. Oops, our bad !
Here’s the deal - GM is spreading it’s risk, in case the government doesn’t pony up the taxpayer dollars to fund rebates for the Volt 40 mile model. Why should GM sell the Volt 40 below their cost when there is taxpayer money to finance the full price tag ? (Remember, this is from GM’s viewpoint - they want to make money)
The Volt 20 would still put a huge dent in my gasoline usage. Even though I drive 42.5 miles to work (one way) every day, the Volt 20 would get me to work and back on 1 gallon of gas (assuming I get to plug in at work). I currently use 4 gallons a day (Honda Odyssey). Let’s see, that’s a savings of $12.00 a day for 3 unused gallons of gas. Times 6 days, times 4 weeks, that’s $288 a month saved. That’s $3,456.00 a year - not too shabby for a Volt 20 !
I would save more with the Volt 40, but if GM is determined to kill the Volt 40 by going crazy with the price tag, I can’t stop them. And Volt tax rebates depend on who’s sitting in Air Force One after January 20, 2009.
It’s just a trial balloon, people. A lot can happen in the 29 months until the Volt rollout. A lot can go right, a lot can go wrong. We will see.
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
If there is an option for 20 mile, then I want an option for double. How about 80 mile range? Better yet, I want a BEV–pure electric with no range extender.
20 MILES WILL NOT BE SUFFICIENT TO WEEN US OFF OIL.
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Well that sucks. I want more rather than less. 101 mile round trip daily commute with option to plug in at work. 40 - 50 mile range would almost get me there with using gas. 20 mile range doesn’t fit.
It does however, make me curious about the price difference.
And won’t the new plugin Prius get 10 miles on a charge?
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
I don’t like where this is going. Sounds like they’re preparing us for bad news.
On the other hand, I’m sure there are plenty of folks who could make do with a 20-mile Volt: But this won’t be the game-changer we all hoped for.
My commute is just over 40 miles, I was hoping that this would turn out to be a conservative estimate, not an impossibly-priced option.
Maybe I’m getting worked up over nothing, and the “Model 20″ might be just what it seems on the surface: a way to spread the promise, not dilute it.
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
A shorter-range Volt will encourage that many more people to plug in at work, if their bosses agree. What happens to our existing electrical infrastructure when half the recharging happens in the daytime and not off-peak, at night?
What day is this again?
Oh yeah, the 13th.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
My wife and I live about 8 miles from our respective offices. I would like the 20 mile version for both of us and my teenagers. I am sure the cars will be identical except for the batteries. This is a great ideal for people with shorter commutes. I would buy 4 Volts today if they were available. I have a family of 4 and spent over $11,000 on gas last year.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
I understand your disappointment, Jackson. You wanted a gas free car. At 85 miles round trip to work and back, I wanted a car that would use only a fraction of the gas I use now.
If GM is going to go nuts, and try to recoop their development costs in the first year with the price of the Volt 40, it will become a “Jay Leno” car - a plaything of the rich, like the Tesla electric car. GM’s much hailed “moon-shot” Volt 40 will turn into a moon fizzle. The Volt 20 is ok, but GM never seems to miss an opportunity to disappoint. Such a shame.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
What are the driving conditions for the 40 or 20 miles? Is it based on the city driving cycle? If so then the highway commuters won’t get 20 miles from the 20 mile pack nor will they get 40 miles from the 40 mile pack. We Need data on miles per charge for highway/city driving to determine if the 20 or 40 mile pack will properly service our needs.
Since I have a mix of highway/city driving, I was expecting the 40 mile range would really provide 25-30 miles of travel between charges. The proposal for the 20 mile pack of mixed driving might give 10 to 15 miles per charge. That kills the goal of “gas free” for me.
I doubt they will design the car to allow a 20 mile pack car to take and additional 20 mile pack a few years after purchase. GM would rather have the customer purchase a new car again to acquire the 40 mile range. They’re in the business to sell cars. You’ll have to get the expansion pack from a third party auto-supplier. Won’t that be fun.
From a laymans perspective, GM must distribute the cost of this first eflex car across all models of cars GM produces and expect true profit in a few years. It would be foolish greed on their part to try and recoup all costs in a few years.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
This can be good - meeting your budget if you’re not going to use 40 miles a day.
a 20 miler could get me to school and back using gas for like 1.5km.. not bad, but a 40 miler could get me there with no gas at all
If they do this, they should make it expandable - perhaps break the pack up into 10 mile chunks? You can buy more range for X more dollars (up to a certain max when you run out of space to put more in)
then they can have a 10 mile for (probably) cheaper than the plug-in prius, as well as offer more range for those who need it.
And maybe you only need 20 miles today, but you change jobs in three years, and need 30 miles. No problem, you can get an expansion put in for only $3000 (made up number).
Or in five years, maybe battery density has changed completely, and you can now get 100 miles in the same space as that 10 mile pack. For $X you can now make your volt go 10x as far.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
I don’t know what we should make of this. 40 was ALWAYS the benchmark they set.
But having said that, if GM can sell a 20 mpc Volt for the price of a Prius- then maybe that is a real interesting battleground. Going head to head on price and then the comparisons in cost would be clear. Remember - a plugin Prius will cost maybe 4k more than regular Prius. So 30k Prius plugin against a 30k Volt would be very interesting.
Having a 40 mpc version that is 8k more than a prius makes it less clear to many people about cost benefit.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
I hate to get technical, but there may be problems with a 20 mile range version of the Volt. Decreasing the size of the battery has 2 effects:
1) Decreased energy storage, which translates to a lower all electric range.
2) Decreased power, which translates to lower acceleration.
So we might be talking about 0-60 in 12 seconds instead of 7. Given the driving habits in the U.S., I think this could be a deal breaker.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
A Volt with a 20 mile electric range may excite some of you, but it doesn’t do a thing for me!
Did anyone else pick up on the comment Posawatz made? He said “GM had been approached by utilities interested in using recycled Volt batteries as a power storage system, a secondary market that could bring down the cost of the Volt and other plug-in vehicles for consumers.”
Why the heck are they having those conversations now? Since it will be 10+ years down the road after the Volt comes out before any battery packs would be available for use by the utility companies, I can only interpret those discussions one way — GM plans to lease the battery pack. If so, it is definitely a deal breaker for me!
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Puuleease read the article Lyle was paraphrasing and linked to. This is the exact quote:
“In the future, GM could offer a battery pack with a 20-mile electric-only range to bring costs down, Posawatz said, part of an effort to cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more.”
This not a backtrack, compromise, or anything else even remotely negative. GM recognizes that one size and one price does fit all. They are thinking progressively about how to reach a larger consumer base with their E-FLEX powertrain. I wish he also spoke about future 60 mile packs, CUV applications, small pickups, and high end small CTSes.
For my household one 40 mile and one 20 mile Volt be fantastic, but don’t some 1/2 price 20 mile tin can. I want a full Volt minus $5-6K. Also, if utilities are eager enough to take the battery off leases and thus guaranteeing high residual values for those leases, I’m all over it. This will allow the car to be bought for considerably less money and only pay a small monthly battery lease payment (roughly $120 for 5yr lease, $10,000 pack, $5000 residual value). When the lease is up, I can buy or lease a new pack. Hopefully GM is smart and they design for upgrading the pack, thus I can purchase the latest technology. All expectations are that 5 years after the Volt release batteries will be significantly less expensive and more energy dense.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Estero #48
Could be, but they might also be thinking about trade-in on an upgrade. That’s a lot more appealing to me. I’ve said it before,
but since I know I’m not going to get one of the first I hope those that can afford one help to bring the cost down for 2nd gen on.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Good greif, give people more options and they complain. I for one and a good portion of the population don’t need the 40 mile range. My commute is 12 miles one way. Why should I have to pay for the 40 mile range when I can pay a lot less. It is not like YOU can’t buy the 40 mile range car. So what exactly is your problem with having a freaking choice????
I suspect the cutting the cost by half comment is a little over blown, but it might be closer to the truth than you think. By lowering the range of SOME of the Volts that means they can produce more volts as it is likely battery production will be the limiting factor. If half of the people buy the 20 mile range version then they can up production by 50%. This will help recoup research and development cost quicker as well as get it into more people hands, which would be good for GM.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I believe a semi affordable ($30k) 20 mile AER Chevy Volt is a better solution than a ($45k) 40 mile AER Caddy Volt that most people can’t afford. It will still beat the Gen 3 Prius in AER and remain somewhat price competitive.
Did I mention the “plug free” Volt ? Wouldn’t it be nice if there were an American Made alternative to the Prius that’s competively priced, gets 50 mpg and apartment dwellers could own ?
Compare that to what you drive now ;>)
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
A 20-mile AER is nothing short of bait-and-switch at this point. Not cool, Mr. Posawatz. This will be yet another nasty knock to GM’s credibility (geez, do they have any left?) if it comes to pass.
Toyota found a way to make the unbalanced economics of the Prius work during its early years. GM will likewise have to find a way, while keeping the promises they made, or the ‘Volt Revolution’ will simply fail. I sure hope that doesn’t happen.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
#49 koz Careful what you ask for, you might get it!
If you have ever read the lease terms for GM vehicles and then gave serious consideration to the terms that might be likely with the Chevy Volt battery pack, it gives one many, many reasons to be cautious!
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Dave G
Don’t hate to get technical. We like technical here. Don’t forget decreased weight.
I say, if a Volt-20 is what it takes to get the Volt going, do it. We need to get the Volt established. a Volt-20 would meet my needs. ICE-based cars have different engine options, why shouldn’t Volts have different battery options? I don’t really need a 40-mile AER, so I don’t want to pay for more car than I need. I’ll buy the Volt-20.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
#47 DaveG
“2) Decreased power, which translates to lower acceleration.”
While this appears to be a perfectly logical conclusion, the opposite may true. If GM chooses A123 (perhaps LG Chem too but I haven’t seen much about chemistry specs), the 40 mile AER Volt will be significantly overpowered as far as the power delivery capabikities of the battery are concerned. From what I’ve read of A123’s, even a 20 mile AER battery will fully power the Volt and the 150lbs or so less weight will increase performance!
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Would it be a 20-mile AER at end-of-life? Perhaps it would have a greater AER when it is newer.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Sorry, I may have been unclear. I meant it’s a bait-and-switch if it’s the ONLY option. It’s a little different if both 20- and 40- mile versions are available.
But even that’s true only to a point; the 40 must still be a reasonable price overall (not $45k or something ridiculous like that).
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
#50 Grizzly
You’re right! GM might be thinking about trade-in on an upgrade, but I doubt it. What is the incentive for anyone to trade-in a battery pack before it falls to between 70% and 80% of their power remaining? It may not be the latest and greatest, but it is still serving the purpose of a 40 mile electric range.
The only reason I can imagine one considering a battery exchange is if a new battery pack would give a significantly greater electric range. Even then, the trade-in would have to be cost effective.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Estero #59
“The only reason I can imagine is if a new battery pack would give a significantly greater electric range”
*** *** ***
Bingo! But then again, who knows? What I would say is that if GM had some sort of affordable plan for an upgrade path it would have to involve a extracting the residual value out of the trade-in. This would have to add to the demand for the Volt as no one would want to buy anything that will obsolesce in a short amount of time.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
20 miles is only acceptable as a first step but within 5 years there had better be a 100 mile AER or GM is in trouble. The competition will only be stunned for a few years.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
If they do this, Toyota will beat them in every conceivable way. The Prius plug-in is already making headlines and television news.
GM needs to swing for the fences and execute (including an affordable price, around 30k), or just forget it.
The Prius will do 20 miles w/out gas. Why then is the Volt special? Because it’s not a parallel hybrid? Alright. But that’s not a game changer.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Last monday I traveled about 12 miles to get a N.Y. State inspection on my newly acquired 1980 Bradley G T Electric That I’m using for research to develope an E-REV recharging station, with half the battery pack weak and 1 completely dead battery I almost made it back ……..20 miles don’t cut it ………The G T should do 50 to 85 miles according to 1980 owners manual……and I’m determined to get 50 to 85 miles out of it !!!!!! …….Charged on my alternative energy system……….. With 22,000 engineers on their payroll G.M. should be able to get at least 40 miles on a charge 30 years later……LETS GIT-ER DONE G.M. ……Now is not the time to get cold feet !!!!
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
20 miles all electric is an OPTION people!!!!
Maybe if I repeat it enough everyone will finally get it that this is a good thing.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
20 miles is an option.
You can still buy the 40 mile version.
More cars will be available; therefore the waiting list won’t be as long.
This will likely lower cost to everyone due to being able to spread out the R&D cost over more cars.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Repeat all you want, Omega-man, but if having an unremarkable 20 mi car serves as an excuse to have an overly expensive 40 mi one, it’s insane.
Unless they set huge goals and meet them, Toyota WILL beat them. Period.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:12 am
20 miles would be to fail and to fail is not an option…….Nite-nite, It’s way past my bed time…..:):):)
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Surely Toyota will beat GM and GM is heading towards bankruptcy. Sorry for those still in that broken state, GET OUT and work for the Japs, they are nicer than Rick Wagoner.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:23 am
Did you guys read the same article I did above?? From what I read, the initial Volt will be the 40 mpc version. However, it is going to be pretty expensive, due mostly to the expensive batteries. The quote was “in the future, GM could offer a battery pack with a 20-mile electric-only range to bring costs down in an effort to cut the cost of such vehicles by half or more.” I suspect the 40-mile range battery pack will cost at least $15,000 to possibly over $20,000. The price of a 40-mile battery pack will probably be as much as the car itself without a battery pack, thus the possible options of leasing the battery pack, or an option of a smaller battery pack for half the price of the larger pack. In other words, about $10,000 difference in the cost of the two versions of the Volt. The Volt has never been presented as a vehicle for people who drive long distances to work, but as a vehicle for people who drive less than 12,000 miles per year total, or less than 1,000 miles per month. The 20-mile battery pack would be perfect for me, as it would suffice for all my driving except for one 70-mile trip per month. Even the 40-mile battery pack would not cover that trip, so why should I pay an extra $10,000 or so for it? Those who need the extra range will have to pony up the extra cash, just like they have to pay more for gasoline today.
BTW, about a year ago I was interested in purchasing a hybrid vehicle. I first looked at a Ford Escape hybrid, then decided against it when I found out that neither the heater or the air conditioner would work without the IC engine running, negating much of the increase in fuel milage over a regular Escape. I also researched the Honda Civic hybrid and the Prius among others. They both have electrically operated air conditioners, but not heaters. The only Prius on my local lot was over $27,000 and the dealer would not knock off a cent from the sticker price (in fact, it had ‘dealer add-ons’ in addition to factory sticker). I also checked out the replacement cost of the NiMH battery, as an estimate was given to an owner with a battery that would no longer hold a good charge. Replacement was over $7500 for that small capacity NiMH battery. Li-ion batteries are much more expensive than NiMH and even the 20-mile version of the Volt battery has a larger capacity.
I like the Volt, but don’t expect miracles people.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:37 am
This whole thing about Toyota beating GM rhetoic seems a bit silly. Why are some people always talking about whose car is the best? Reality check everyone: different people will find that a different car is the “best” for them.
Look at all the manufacturers and models of car on the road. If there was only one “best” car, we’d all be driving the same friggin’ car! It’s personal preference of styling, power, size, fuel economy, etc.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:47 am
They freaking complain when the price is high and they complain when the are given an option. I guess you only want one color to be offered as well. Thank goodness you people aren’t making the decisions.
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June 14th, 2008 at 1:49 am
For a lot of drivers 20 miles between charges is sufficient, especially in small towns and for retired drivers. For drivers in large cities with longer commutes 40 miles between charges would likely be the way to go.
Maybe GM is working on batteries that give a lot more than 40 miles, wouldn’t that be a nice surprise.
If drivers are going to use the gas tank for extended trips, they’ll have to use the gas regularly or it will go bad anyways.
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June 14th, 2008 at 2:15 am
One thing is for sure, no one car will please everybody.
I am getting so f’n tired of technology being out their to get away from it and automakers trying to find out how to 1) Make you come in every 3 months for maintenance and 2) Have to have some reliance of fueling stations.
GM’s active management sucks because it keeps all cylinders running when they don’t have to be without a manual override. E85 still requires some oil and refueling stations. And this is falling in that same line of GM frustration from my perspective.
The concept of a battery buffer so that the ICE can always rotate at optimum RPM (with no transmission) is a great idea for the 1st step in plug-in hybrids with GM who, until now had no hybrids. It is a good innovation that is about 3 years too late (should have been out when gas was $2.50/gal. . I’m not looking for another petro car at $4+/gal. It’s like pulling teeth from the automakers, except pulling teeth is a whole lot easier.
Give me an affordable all-electric already! If you need to cut costs, cut the ICE and everything that relies on fueling stations and routine maintenance. I mean really, get the hint! Do I need a 220 miles per charge, sporty looking 0 to 60 in 3.9 sec Tesla roadster? No! I need 150 MPC sedan under $40K.
You give me that, and I will be at your sales door tomorrow!
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June 14th, 2008 at 2:39 am
I don’t know what most of you people are smoking, but it must be good
READ the srticle & 57Silvers comment. [#68]
omegaman you are so right brother. At the risk of upsetting everyone I want different colors as well!
So here’s my take on it.
Version one: release date 2010
40 mile AER range = 4 seats. (You want it you pay)
Version two: release date 2012?
20 mile AER range = 5 seats (Much cheaper)
40 mile AER range = 4 seats (cheaper)
50 mile AER range = 4 seats (Version one price)
For the above three a 20 mile Hymotion type add on pack option.
Thanks for giving us choices GM. ******* GO VOLT *********
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:16 am
Everyone wants everything for nothing. No surprise here. As has been stated by Omega, NZ and countless others, please understand that all this stuff is expensive to develop, especially ground breaking technology like this. VERY EXPENSIVE. We should be grateful that GM is finally pushing the envelope to get this car to market. The GM of the past 30 years would have never lifted a finger on a project like this of their own origin.
I’m in the camp that thinks that the 20 AER offering is a step in the right direction. Sales of these may take off and as I’ve said in previous posts, if there is an upgrade direction for these it may very well be the lining in the cloud toward getting this off the ground.
I’m not always the easiest person to get along with, but what I’m seeing from GM is a sincere effort to combat all the forces that would stand in the way of success. It’s in everyone ’s interest that the Volt succeeds. So why not instead of bitching and griping offer support and suggestions?
Remember, that we’re not like all the screw-loose tree-hugging EV evangelists who tote Bull-horns and shout at traffic and achieve nothing. We’re sensible people and we’ll work with GM to get something done, and that’s the difference!
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:34 am
How about “BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED”?
That would cut the initial cost dramatically!
Publish the specs, setup a certification process, and let the battery manufacturers take it from there.
GM can focus on the car, the motor, and controller … it’s what they do best, have plenty of experience, and are certainly capable of mass producing everything but the batteries.
It might spawn a new industry, encouraging competition in a free market system.
It might even move the release date up to 2009.
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:38 am
When they say 20 mile, or 40 mile, has any site mentioned what the weather will do to those ratings? Winter weather seems to kill car batteries, will it also lower the volt’s battery range? Or 95-110 days in the summer, will the volt be able to handle it?
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:00 am
Eric #75 and Russ #76,
Good questions. Eric, it’s important to understand that unlike a Gameboy, or an electric toy, simply “popping” batteries off the shelf into any BEV isn’t possible. The work needed to integrate the management system and power electronics etc. is eeons more sophisticated than popping third party batts into a Gameboy.
Russ #76, again, this lends itself to the challenges at hand. There have been EV evangelists on this site who claim that if GM just used Nimh batteries the Volt could be out by this fall. Nonsense! These people are driving Nimh cars in the mild climate of So. Ca. And aside from the fact that they have no idea what it takes to develop a vehicle, they are clueless. Nimh is far more affected by temperature extremes than is Li-ion, but it is still another development hurdle at hand. People who live in Green Bay will need to operate this vehicle just as those who live in Palm Springs. This may clue you in to the sophistication of the BMS and the batt pack’s thermal control system.
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:02 am
Eric Marshall
For Version two thats a great idea. Wish I had thought of it to add to my list of options
For version one it won’t work, not enough time. The production can not be moved up as the factory will not be finished retooling until early - mid 2010 anyway.
Grizzly, I don’t see why given an exact set of specs a third party can’t design and make a battery. It would also let GM off the hook for battery replacement issues. Of course if someone got a dud battery GM would be blamed when the car got towed. Maybe a different trim of some sort? JMHO.
Russ: The range will be shorter in cold weather, summer will have no effect, other than running the A/C. But that’s why the engine is there. A lead foot, like me, will make the most difference though.
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:35 am
Dear all,
Sorry to come back to the last 40 comments of yesterday’s post and particularly on my post #135 and sorry to cite myself , I treat my ego :
“For the Bertrand competition between the Prius and the Volt, I think we may refer to the previous discussion about Toyota. The Prius is converging toward the Volt and remember the discussion about the external shape of the Volt, some were thinking it would ressemble the Prius.”
And today GM says it is making the Volt converge in price and range toward the Prius … the game for this special kind of competition is on …
Let’s wait for Statik’s interpretation of the facts.
JC
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Jean-Charles
As long as they both get there. Also the Volt better look different
Just waiting for my R/H drive version.
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:56 am
Sounds good GM, release the 40 mile version first, then offer the 20 mile model to those individuals who’s needs are less, but the 40 mile VOLT comes first! We’ve been hearing those specs for 18 months now, changing down to 20 miles on the initial VOLTS will cause too much customer confusion & disappointment.
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:18 am
I hate it when GM does this: promises one thing then takes it away…
If GM keeps on jacking with the public look for Toyota to sell even more cars…
Somebody needs to slap a CEO back to reality.
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Crows GM hasn’t taken ANYTHING away. Did you read the article??? Crows what is it that GM took away??? Apparently GM has overestimated the intelligence of the car buying public.
I am now convencied this is a bad move. I was wrong. I stand corrected. How dare GM take away what they have promised. Dang it they promised a 40 mile all electric range and now they are talking about offering both a 20 AND a 40 mile version. Fore shame. And just when I thought GM was moving forward.
Greg and Sue and Bobby can’t afford the 40mile version… why is GM catering to them. If you can’t afford a 40 mile version you shouldn’t be allowed to own a volt… even if your commute is only 5 miles and you don’t need to spend an extra 12 thousand dollars on a battery you will never use.
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Kevin #62, Yes, an unmodified Prius would indeed go 20 miles without gas - as long as you did not reach 40 MPH. The gas engine would automatically kick in at that point.
About leases - GM mistake alert ! Leasing Volts would be a deal-breaker for me, and (I suspect) for a lot of other potential Volt owners. I put 25000 miles a year on a car. There is no lease on Earth which would allow such use. Didn’t GM learn anything from the EV-1 ? I certainly did - Never allow GM to lease you an electric vehicle, unless you like seeing your Volt crushed and melted after GM revokes your lease. GM cannot take back what you bought and paid for.
GM never seems to miss an opportunity to disappoint. Such a shame.
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:41 am
I think GM will first come out with the 40 mile range battery. At the beginning it will be a niche car, selling at a high price. I’m sure there will be a surge of people who will pay the high price at the beginning. If need be, later and I don’t mean much later, GM could come out with a 20 or 30 mile range model. The lesser models would have provision so if the owner wanted to increase the range in the future, cells could be added w/o incurring a huge expense other than the cost of reasonable labor and cost of the cells . This could be called a kit and would be dealer install due to safety. But, all of this has to be pre-plan and engineered in advance. That is why we are having this thread today, to get a feel of what customers want.
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:44 am
Right on Crows ……Omegaman,……. 20 miles just isn’t enough……
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Crows & Dick G. Since you obviously did not bother to read the previous posts here’s mine again:
I don’t know what most of you people are smoking, but it must be good
READ the srticle & 57Silvers comment. [#68]
omegaman you are so right brother. At the risk of upsetting everyone I want different colors as well!
So here’s my take on it.
Version one: release date 2010
40 mile AER range = 4 seats. (You want it you pay)
Version two: release date 2012?
No battery. Third parties to supply on given specs. (Much, much cheaper)
20 mile AER range = 5 seats (Much cheaper)
40 mile AER range = 4 seats (cheaper)
50 mile AER range = 4 seats (Version one price)
For the above three a 20 mile Hymotion type add on pack option.
Thanks for giving us choices GM. ******* GO VOLT *********
PS GM judging by some of the posts today, you better employ Tagamet to council people on the concept of multiple choice.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:03 am
#79 JC
Well, it would seem the definition is alot more true today, lol. What did that take 24 hours? The two products would certainly seem to be converging if you believe the press release. It would seem that each company is developing and pricing completely independant of what the other is doing…that certainly fits the Bertrand model.
Otherwise, I have no idea why with Toyota’s recent announcement of a low range plug-in why GM would even consider competing in that space. The potential customer base is monsterious with the product they are trying to get out.
I think perhaps the ‘half the price’ snippet was taken out of context. We already know that the pack is going to come in between 5K at the low and 10K at the max. So allowing for that and perhaps some streamlined cost efficiencies, I could see maybe 5K off the price.
I honestly don’t see this coming to fruitition at all. This may be some kind of ‘knee-jerk’ to Toyota’s ‘knee-jerk’.
However, deep down in the pit of my stomach, where all thoughts are bad (not just 95 percent of them), it feels like it could be a ‘out’ when they announce the price of the 40 mile Volt.
Perhaps they announce the regular Volt at $44,999 or worse $49,999 for all the ‘initial adopters/suckers’ then say we will be coming soon with the 20 miler at $39,999. (Pure conjecture on that though)
Most likely scenario, is it just a engineering guy…having a engineering pipedream.
I can’t image the kind of havoc a guy with the title, “senior engineering executive” can create for the PR department. How do you keep this guy in check? lol. He probably has plans for a flying car next year…that runs on hydrogen. (Oh yes, I went there).
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Dick G. you are wrong. wrong wrong!!!
You don’t even know me, so how can you say that 20 miles isn’t enough? HOW!!!! How can you know how much is enough for everyone.
I have got a real shocking news flash for you, not everyone regularly drive over 20 miles per day!!! And guess what some that commute 20 miles to work will have the ability to plug in there.
So you are WRONG!!! 20 miles IS enough for some and I suspect many of them will opt for the lower cost VERSION of the volt. Others will opt for the 40 mile version.
.
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.
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.
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Do any of you people understand the word VERSION!!! As in different VERSIONS of the same car???? Apparently not too many.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:15 am
Other GM news today, well yesterday.
GM won a battle…and lost at the same time?
GM filed to have the union blackade of their Canada HQ taken down, and also asked for 1.5 million (???) in damages.
Apparently, that was a mistake. Because the judge was not happy at GM at all. He has let the blockade continue until monday (which is just symobollic in nature as no one does anything there on the weekends). And he was careful to add improper conduct to his decsion to almost signal the union to continue legal action against GM
“The judge allowed the blockade to continue for the weekend, saying the company acted “deceitfully” in announcing the shutdown of its Oshawa truck plant two weeks after signing a new contract with the union…”
“We are not giving up on this struggle,” Kennedy (assistant to the CAW national secretary-treasurer) said. “We are now planning the next stage of our response to GM’s unjust and unlawful decision to close the Oshawa truck plant.”
Ironically, after trying to strong arm them with the 1.5 million threat, “The automaker called for a gentler approach to mending fences.”
“With this we continue to encourage the CAW to sit down with us to focus on more productive matters and hope this will allow us to discuss potential creative alternatives such as steps to assist impacted employees,” the company said in a release.
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idCAN1343519920080614?rpc=44
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:20 am
That’s fine but I want a 60 mile version. I driver 44 miles round trip so it would be nice to have that extra comfort. I’d be willing to pay $10-15k more too.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:23 am
Statik, I agree with the judge.
Maybe they could use the plant to produce the 20 mile version of the Volt in 2012 hehehe.
Mike Roberts, I think you should have the choice of a 60 mile version. Especially as you seem willing to pay for it.
For me the 40 is enough. If its too expensive, I can live with the 20 mile version.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Large-format Li-ion batteries currently cost more than $500/kWh, according to Tesla. With a 16kWh pack, that’s $8,000. So if they put a 8kWh pack in there, that’s $4,000 shaved off the price of the car.
$4,000 + $4,000 = Price of Volt? I don’t think so.
Either Tesla was fibbing when they gave their report to CARB, or GM is fibbing now. Based on fibbing records, my bet is on GM being the fibber.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Omegaman,…..I just did 22 miles on a $1600.00 battery pack in my 1980 Bradley G T Electric with 1 dead battery, 22 miles was not enough ……. I had to call my wife for a tow to make it the last 2 miles….and she wasn’t very happy!!!! …..This isn’t McDonald’s, One size fits all….Mass production will lower cost !!!!
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Jackson @ 40; I agree. Sounds like GM is preparing us for bad news.
20 miles is NOT enough and is a joke. I can see it now, “GM killed the electric car and then revived it for a few seconds before killing it again.”
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Lets See: At 40K / $5.00 gas = 8,000 gallons of gas. 8,000 x 22 mpg = 176,000 miles. I think it will be cheaper to keep my Gas Guzzling SUV for a few more years. If GM cannot get the costs down then the car will not sell; at least not in the volume they would like.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:55 am
1. The volt will not leave you stranded because the battery is low…. EVER.
2. I am not talking about your needs. I don’t care about your needs. I am not talking about your needs.
Can’t you understand that YOUR needs are not the same as everyone elses needs. Some people (other than you) don’t have as long a commute.
You say mass production will lower cost. EXACTLY. By offering a 20 mile and a 40 mile version the cost can be spread out over more vehicles. This will lower cost for ALL!!!! The same number of battery packs will be produce either way. Why? Because the battery pack availability is going to be the limiting factor.
So GM can produce 100K cars at 40 mile range or a combination of 40 and 20 and now they can produce 150K vehicles. That is 50 percent more of every component other than the battery. The number of battery paks would stay the same.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:00 am
#96 wwskinn3,
Your gas guzzling SUV gets 22 MPG, cost nothing to maintain, and doesn’t depreciate?
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:21 am
O.K. …Omegaman, temporary truce, If you have got some pull with G.M., My real need is 1 Volt mule sent to G.M’s….H—— F—- Hydrogen Research Lab,…. There a G.M. engineer can drive it to my Alternative Energy E-REV Recharging Station so that we can do some testing……….Thanks Dick G.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:26 am
This is disappointing but not totally unexpected. Battery energy density at a reasonable cost is the crux of this. Volts at $45K will not sell in volume even if they delivered 100 electric miles. GM must get to a $20-$25K vehicle.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Steve33 @ 100,
At some point GM will need to get to a $25-30K vehicle…but certainly not for a few years. There’s plenty of time to adopt new techonology and work the economy of scale to their advantage. There are plenty of people that would shell out $50K for this vehicle as promised…although I’d like a little more range than 40 miles.
I do agree though, that Mitsu’s 100 mile range MiEV for $25K is mighty tempting at this piont.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:41 am
What’s up with 40 miles?
What range did the EV1 have with NiHi? Wasn’t it close to 100? Shoot, Pb acid was 70. Why is 40 such a bid deal?
Explain this to me as though I were a 2 yo!
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:47 am
With two options 20&40 GM will serve a wider market, that means bigger series and cheaper prices for the ones who need or prefer a 20 and those ones that need a 40
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:53 am
It would be nice to see three different versions of the Volt initially, so people can make a choice as to which vehicle best meets their needs and budget.
Who knows, maybe something like this will be offered:
Option 1. Plug Free Volt with 8khw battery 0 mile AER $30,000.
Option 2. Standard Volt with 12khw battery 20 mile AER $35,000
Option 3. Cadillac Volt with 16khw battery 40 mile AER $45,000
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Hi akojim (I missed your shout-out the first time though the post, lol)
Not to belabor the point about the cost of the battery pack, but I don’t think half the pack would yield 20 miles under the current scenario.
The current set-up is that the Volt runs the 40 miles on 50% of the 16kWh capacity.
The sustainable level is already known at 4.8kWh, to run system and power the drive (as it is always fulltime electric drive). Total usable charge capacity is limited at 80%.
Therefore a 8kWh, would only net in the range from 4.8kWh to 6.4kWh, without ‘re-working’ the base running principals of the system (which may not be possible…or two costly). A 8kwH pack would only generate a usable charge of around 2kWh (compared to 8kwH of power).
To get half the range (20 miles), the pack would need to be 11kWh in size…or anout 70 percent of current pack size. A thirty percent savings on pack costs. So I don’t see how overall saving could be 50% or greater.
A more likely scenerio could be ‘turning down’ the drain/output of the electric drive motor to extend the usable range of the 8kWh battery.
However, if this was possible/feasible, I think most of us would trade a 0-60 time of 7 seconds, for a 0-60 time of 10 seconds to get a 80 mile range. I really like the ‘econ’ mode button….now that would be some ‘engineering’ I could get behind. (The i-Miev has one…why not the Volt too?)
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:54 am
In the news:
Japanese Company Invents Water Fueled Car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBm8ogwnpG0
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/online/news/articles/2008-06/Genepax-unveils-water-energy-fuel-cell
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/13/genepax-shows-off-water-powered-fuel-cell-vehicle/
1 liter of water (fresh, salt, polluted, whatever) will run the car for one hour at 50-mph by converting the water to hydrogen dioxide and then stripping the electrons for the car’s electric drive. Demonstration vehicle is currently on the road.
Could there be an oversight or error in man’s first law of thermodynamics? Scientists couldn’t be wrong… could they? They’ve never been wrong before… have they? After all, nothing has ever been gained by challenging known science… has it?
I guess we’ll have to wait and see….
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:59 am
#104 Optional McFly
“Option 2. Standard Volt with 12khw battery 20 mile AER $35,000″
Nice!
I see as I was writing the whole long winded post you just went right ahead and assumed the 12kWh pack gets 20 miles.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:00 am
20 mi is only a ‘future option’? It wont be forced on us? I feel much better now.
Day before yesterday, I wanted a Volt; yesterday I didn’t want a Volt and was depressed and had a bad headache; today I feel much better and I want a Volt.
I had my yearly physical awhile ago and the doctor asked me, “How long have you been having problems with depression?” I told him about as long as I’ve been having these bad headaches. He suggested Electro Shock Therapy might help and that the effects were lasting considerably longer since they switched over to Li Ion battery packs.
I need to find a different doctor.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:08 am
#65, Kevin says:
“Repeat all you want, Omega-man, but if having an unremarkable 20 mi car serves as an excuse to have an overly expensive 40 mi one, it’s insane.
Unless they set huge goals and meet them, Toyota WILL beat them. Period.”
Bravo! Yes, a 20 mile charge is just lame - GM has set the right target of 40 miles for many reasons, and they need to stick to it, without even talking about a 20 mile range vehicle.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:08 am
I believe a 20 mile range Volt would be under-powered.
Acceleration - 0 to 60 in around 12 seconds.
Unacceptable for American drivers.
This is a big deal - a deal breaker in fact.
Lyle, could you ask GM if the smaller 20 mile battery would affect acceleration?
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Statik #107.
Just throwing numbers out there. No science behind it.
I’m not really sure how much battery you’ll need to run the Volt at 0, 20 and 40 mile “All Electric Range” or even what a Kwh of battery will cost.
I do hope we’ll have a choice though.
Unfortunately, those of us who need the maximum AER, will most likely be the ones least likely to afford it…
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Statik, 30% of a 8KW battery is only 2.4kWh. So you would have 4KWh to play with at 50% DOD.
Jason, if you could save $5,000 on the vehicle cost and halve the AER, you wouldn’t bother, but some people would. It’s all about choice.
Dave G. You are confusing power with energy density. There is no reason why acceleration would be affected.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:15 am
It would be a smart move to have a 20 mile or 40 mile option on the battery. Starting out with a less expensive battery that can be swapped out later and reduces the warranty costs should be looked at. I would put some early Volts on the road with something like a Firefly Energy Oasis battery (Advanced Pb) and allow people to upgrade the battery pack later as the technology improves.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:18 am
110, dave g
It would depend on how much power the batteries had, not the size. A123 batteries could probably handle it.
My concern is:
“the nature of this technology is that it’s going to be expensive, and we will not underprice this vehicle.”
THat is bad. Once you release it at 40k, you can never reduce the price, that will crush resale value and it is a disservice to those that buy early.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:26 am
I’m enjoying watching all of this ‘it can’t be done’ talk while my 10 year old, 60 miles per charge electric Citroen runs along quite happily on its ancient technology NiCads
I can see why (on the the rare occasions they surface) RAV 4 EVs are going for nearly twice their original sticker price on ebay.
If they really cared at all, then USA plc really would INSIST that Chevron/Texaco releases NiMh for large format traction EV batteries in the interest of her NATIONAL SECURITY - GM really trod on their own rake when they gave that one away.
Anyway the Govt doesn’t really give a stuff so chances of her stepping in are of course Zero - Instead USA plc will continue to spend $15 Billion per MONTH on TOP of her normal defence spending into Farawayistan!
Fiddling away while Rome burns……a tragic comedy!
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:39 am
#104 Optional posed these interesting choices
Option 1. Plug Free Volt with 8khw battery 0 mile AER $30,000.
Option 2. Standard Volt with 12khw battery 20 mile AER $35,000
Option 3. Cadillac Volt with 16khw battery 40 mile AER $45,000
My guess is that customers will consider the hassle of daily plugging and unplugging and will prefer option 1 over option 2 by a large margin, especially as the option 1 price can be driven down into the $25K range by reducing the battery still more. These will be customers looking for a high mileage car of whatever design. Option 3 will be a successful but niche product.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:44 am
#114 Voltman noted the GM spokesmans comment and said “My concern is:
‘the nature of this technology is that it’s going to be expensive, and we will not underprice this vehicle.’ ”
No, let’s not “underprice” electric, even though our whole corporate future rides on it. Bizarre.
One wonders if we are not seeing a little pay-back from the thousands of ICE people in the GM organization emerge in this statement. People have bullt their whole careers around ICE products, built millions, and electric is an upsetting development.
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:20 am
If GM is listening:
I obviously WANT the 40 mile range more but because of financial reasons I am MUCH MUCH more likely to buy the 20 mile range version.
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:47 am
#90 - re: GM plant closure
Sure, it was deceiving giving them a new contract, then closing 2 weeks later - but you have to wonder how stupid these thousands of workers are.
Gas prices spike -> vast reduction in truck sales -> less trucks being produced -> GM loses money -> GM closes plant.
How do you not see this coming??
(I live near Oshawa, and honestly, I’m sick of hearing it on the news all the time. GM is a business, they’re not going to keep 2000 jobs just so they can keep bleeding money. The only way that plant is going to stay open is if they re-tool it for something new, such as the Volt.)
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:16 am
The technology is coming. It doesn’t have to be GM. What I am really looking for is a vehicle that gets between 80 an 100mpg. I think a third generation Prius might get that. I can have that before 2011.
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Though I’d MUCH prefer to have a 40+ mile Volt ….. a 20 mile all electric range Volt would be a good idea if employers and governments got serious about providing electrical outlets in their parking garages and parking lots. A 20 mile Volt might be adequate for a certain percentage of commuters even if their company doesn’t have outlets available. It’s better than nothing I guess. Better than not having a Volt at all if you can’t afford a 40 mile Volt in 2010+.
I bet a lot of the best companies will provide electrical outlets for their employees right away in 2011. They’d probably let them get the electricity for free as a perk. It’s not like they’d have to provide outlets for ALL their employees right away. They could simply add outlets every year according to the number of employees who tell management they have a plug-in hybrid like the Volt.
Depending on gas prices, I bet by 2013, about 70% of the people will still be driving IC engine cars or at least a “power split hybrid” like the Prius. Employers all over America would do a great service for the country if got an electrical outlet program going. Employees would love it of course. Who wants to pay $5+ a gallon for gas? It could be $10 a gallon by 2011 for all we know. If it got to $10 a gallon, employees would be clamoring for their management to install outlets.
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:39 am
#112 NZDavid
Statik, 30% of a 8KW battery is only 2.4kWh. So you would have 4KWh to play with at 50%
I did that math too when I was first scratching it out.
But I was poking around before, and I was fairly positive that the ‘low end’ is not just for battery life efficiency, it has something else also to do with setting the minimum running system requirements once the car is ‘off-EV-charge’?
I thought the number (5kWh) was a firm number (the result was just expressed as a percent of capacity-30%). It’s been along time since I first read/cared about it, lol…so I could be wrong.
Would be a interesting ‘factoid’ if someone on the Volt team has reference whether it is a moving percentage or a solid number.
It would of course have the inverse effect on a larger battery if my assumption is true. (You know, for down the road when Li-Ion batteries are free and readily available at your local 7-11).
ie) a 24kWh battery (50 percent larger) would net around 14.5ish kWh or 72 mile range (80 percent greater)..
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:44 am
This when Misubishi is presently testing EVs on New York that do 80 miles on a charge. What is GM thinking?
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:46 am
#119 canehdian
“Sure, it was deceiving giving them a new contract, then closing 2 weeks later - but you have to wonder how stupid these thousands of workers are…How do you not see this coming??”
I hear you, and agree with you. It certainly is something that has to be done. In fact I’m sure they need to shutter another 4-5 plants…and will before it is all over.
I think they all saw it coming. However, when GM sat down and signed that deal, they all breathed a sigh of relief (”We have our jobs for 3 more years+). They had no reason to believe that GM was acting in a “deceitful” manner and was signed a piece of paper they never intented to honor.
I live in Durham Region myself (of which Oshawa is a part)…it does get real old in a hurry doesn’t it?
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:51 am
I think this wouldn’t be such a bad idea, if it were an option or something I could upgrade down the road.
Say for instance in a year or two I was able purchase an upgraded battery that would give me 40 miles pure EV instead of 20 I would be totally for that.
Also one has to remember that regardless if the volt only has 20 miles or less electric range it will still get 50 MPG which is better than the all mighty Prius.
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:55 am
None of us will know what the range will be until we have one. The 20 could be more, the 40 could be less. I see no problem with GM offering a 20 and a 40. If the price is wrong for either I will buy something else.
Even 20 miles of range used wisely can cut your fuel bill. I commute 32 miles each way to work but there are tons of 4-5 mile hops to the store.
I live at 3000ft and work at sea level. I will use about zip going to work and drain the battery going home. I am curious if the electric motor will be in the EV1 range (160HP) and pull hills without sagging off (even if the ICE kicks in).
But until we have a car, well…. we can keep stroking our brain.
ps, thanks for upping the edit time!
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I just thought I’d throw in my 2 cents. Every mention of the volt comes down to price for alot of people. If the 40 mile range volt is 30 thousand then it will sell. It won’t sell to everyone because not everyone can buy afford it. The 20 mile range is interesting and sounds like a good idea. If it can lower the price of the car by 5-6 thousand then it brings the car into affordable range for more people. On the other hand it does cloud the volt and what it can do in the minds of the public. People who don’t spend time researching it could get throwed off by this alternative information. The biggest problem would be word of mouth rumors about the car. It overall could be a very bad idea to have anything but the 40 mile version.
Now, if Chevy wants to make a wise choice. Have the volt as the higher quality model car. It would be for your more wealthy drivers. Then use the same technology in a small more compact gas saver type car. A barebones inexpensive vehicle. This would be your cheaper version. It would still have the 40 mile range but could probably obtain it with less battery power since it could weigh less. Of course the design would have to revolve around the concept of efficientcy from the ground up. If people are looking to buy a car to save money on gas….they really don’t give a crap how nice the car is. Just don’t make it weird like alot of your electric car companies. Keep it with the normal standard for cars. If you can price a car like that for 15k then it would sell like mad. You could produce enough of them.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Perhaps they foresee the battery decreasing enormously in the years ahead, or better yet, the combination of ultracapacitors and batteries.
Still, I’ll buy the 40 mile range. My work place is 38 miles away. Due to the price of oil, 8 of 23 of us have started telecommuting to work 2 of 5 days a week. Anything to escape Middle-East terrorist oil is a plus up. Anything GM does to keep the ball rolling in the right direction is an enormous sum gain for America.
Chevy Volt: American-made ($35,000 purchase price), American-FUELED ($20,000 over twelve years by electric).
Gas Cars: Foreign (58% MARKET)- or American-made (42% market) is $30,000 on average to buy), Middle-East FUELED ($50,000 over twelve years)
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
All that money stays home generating jobs here in America helping pay our retirement, roads, streets, tuition, the works.
Retired US Air Force.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
All of these companies (car, oil, etc.) are multi-national and will throw the citizens of any country under the bus if it means making more for the shareholders. Even Japan is doing it so whether it’s a US company or Japanese or Korean or Chinese, whatever, the consumer needs to push to get the best product at the best price.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Many of you people are volatile. Without taking in all that was said in the article and evaluating it from an informed perspective, you are following erratic tangents.
In this day and age, new technology comes out at a premium (see iPhone, etc.). Then, technology advances, competitors emerge, and competition and obsolesence drops prices. The Volt will follow that pattern. First, we’ll see the 40-mile Volt will in limited quantities. After that (by the time I can realistically obtain one, I hope), we’ll see more options. I’m not going to freak out because of the musings of one executive. If you people were day-trading based on the information you read (or didn’t read) in the article and actually had money at stake, would you react so irrationally? Steady as she goes, people.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
20 mile range = A123 battery pack - more power per kWh than CPI & less mamufacturing capability than CPI ; MSRP: $ 24,900.
40 mile range = CPI battery pack - more kWh per kg than A123; MSRP: $34,900.
30 mile range should also be an option - now. 50 & 60 mile ranges should be an option when battery prices come down - it is a Chevy.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Are you all confused about the Volt battery? Yes. Does Toyota keep you well inform about their program? No. GM’s strategy is to keep you and the competition confused and at the same time get a feel for the market. Hey, why give all the details to your unfriendly competitor. Do not fret, GM will make the right decision. You can now all sleep at night.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
A rebate of $6,000 to $8,000 would go a long way toward making the Volt and other 40+ mile electric vehicles more affordable. The rebate could be funded by a tax on imported oil or on gasoline that is increased quarterly.
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June 14th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
I knew GM couldn’t do it! After owning over 10 GM cars / SUVs I’ve had it with them and their excuses. Two Pontiac Bonnievilles and they both had intake manifold gasket issues that GM refused to fix so now there is a lawsuit. They need different leadership in this company as they can’t get anything done right. Guess I’ll have to switch to Toyota - now that hurts!
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June 14th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
I think it’s just a matter of time before the price of batteries comes down. new technology always works that way… and if it doesn’t in this case we know they’re fixing the prices…
the battery companies are still trying to pay off R&D costs. the first few years of mass production of Li-ion batteries will reflect that in their prices but they should go down in the long run. i would think the trend would be towards longer range vehicles for the same price as the previous model was sold for a few years back…
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June 14th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
IMO, this is just a loose cannon making mouth noise when he shouldn’t. I STILL think that the Volt will out-perform the original specs AND be on the road before 11/2010. (contrary as that may be to Statik’s dark inner belly). MAYBE the 20 mile range will be offered after the original Volt shakes out any bugs (with our help).
Be well,
Tag
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June 14th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
20 sounds very good to me. Enough to get to work, run an errand and get back home. And for longer trips, we are still getting a very high mpg right?
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June 14th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
BTW, does anyone think that the picture above may be the back-side of the production Volt?
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June 14th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
You have to keep in mind that GM already sells a LOT of cars outside the U.S. GM is actually doing pretty well in China I hear. If GM wants to REALLY make the Volt an international sensation, then they’ll probably HAVE TO design different battery size versions.
The per capita income in places like China and India isn’t too high you know. China is THE country that’s devouring gasoline at an alarming rate you know. They NEED high gas mileage cars bad. 20 miles of all electric range is better than nothing. Sure would be nice if China stopped building all those new coal plants. They could save money on gas AND help their highly polluted environment. China better get busy planning infrastructure for electric cars right now … charging stations for all those people with apartments. Plug ins are coming … all over the world.
Maybe the E-FLEX platform will be designed to be very FLEX-ible … with the batteries! Maybe they can design standardized battery packs that can hold enough batteries for all electric ranges from 20 miles up to 100 miles. The 20 mile packs would just have a lot more empty space than the 100 mile packs. That way, people could buy as much all electric range as they can afford.
They better design those packs so they can be quickly and easily replaced too. People in Israel might buy Volts you know. They have a battery swap program planned. Who knows what sort of advances could happen with batteries in the next 5-10 years? People might be clamoring to trade in their original 40 mile Volt battery for a new and improved, CHEAPER 100 mile battery that comes to market in 2014 or whatever.
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June 14th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
#98 koz
Yes, I get 22-23 mpg in my Explorer. It is confortable and safe. Maintenance is not that high. The cost of the vehicle is cheaper than the VOLT is supposed to be and yes there is depreciation just like on everything else. How much do you think your $40K volt will be worh two years after you buy it. I don’t think anybody will want to buy a used electric considering the cost of batteries.
GM will still have to get the costs down or the vehicle simply will not sell. A Ford Focus sells for about 16K and gets 33 mpg. It is comfortable and has all the options. If well maintained after 2 years I believe it will be worth more than a used electric. Perhaps the 3rd generation may be a good deal but right now I don’t think so. It sounds like the only people who will be able to afford the Volt are the ones who can afford the $5.00 gas. I hope I am wrong. (I’m on the list also).
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
A 20 Mile battery may not be as durable as 40 mile battery. If 150000 miles or 10 year is the life expentany of 40 mile battery, it could be less for 20 mile one as it needs recharing more often. 40 Mile battery just needs cycle life of 3750 for 150000 mile llife where as 20 mile battery needs a cycle life of 7500 for the same mileage.
Below is the link to US based Aerospace Li ion manufacturer Quallion who is claiming to have unparalled calender life of any lithium ion chemistry with good energy and power density. Capacity loss in just 4% in 3.5 years. It could be only 10 - 15 % in 10 -15 years. Not sure if GM looked into this battery.
http://www.quallion.com/sub-t-performance.asp
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
OT: I’d like to read some PR’s and the resulting discussions on this board about the whole electric drive system of the Volt. I’ve never had an electric car and I’m kind of curious about the how bit, in general, of care and maintenence, different types of motors, amount of voltage and safety.
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
#141 wwskinn3
I can agree you cannot reach balance doing the MSRP vs a MPG comparison, if this is a car you intend to drive into the ground.
But you are way off on the resale of a product like this. Anything hybrid, or hybrid like has monster retention of value.
“How much do you think your $40K volt will be worth two years after you buy it?”
$33,000-$35,000. If demand is still outstripping supply or you are lucky enough to get one in the first 12-18 months, probably like $38K.
A new 4×4 Explorer will run you around $30K (dealer ‘beat down’ pricing around $26K depending on the time of year). You can get a used 2006 now with low miles on it for $9,000.
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
The NiMH battery scenario is intriguing. Since the technology is proven, it really might be worth thinking about. Same weight, less range, proven reliability. Just might be worth thinking about.
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I’m buying one!
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June 14th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Tagamet: Loose canon? I back up what I say with facts, maybe you should learn to do the same. Maybe try using your first name instead of hiding behind an alias
http://www.girardgibbs.com/dexcool.html
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
by kubel:
“Large-format Li-ion batteries currently cost more than $500/kWh, according to Tesla. With a 16kWh pack, that’s $8,000. So if they put a 8kWh pack in there, that’s $4,000 shaved off the price of the car.
$4,000 + $4,000 = Price of Volt? I don’t think so.
Either Tesla was fibbing when they gave their report to CARB, or GM is fibbing now. Based on fibbing records, my bet is on GM being the fibber.”
The cost of the batteries in another 2 1/2 years is hard to estimate as I don’t own a working crystal ball. However, I still think many are underestimating the price. The Tesla Roadster uses the 1st generation Li-ion batteries in their packs. Those cells are about half the cost of the new nano technology cells that provide a much longer battery life and and safety from thermal runaways. Tesla must fuse each one of its cells individually by hand to provide safety, a process not conducive to mass production and labor cost.
Here is a cut & paste plus link to battery manufacturer that use a similar technology to A123. Notice the price in 2006 of $75,000 for a 35 kWh battery pack to Phoenix Motorcars. A 16 kWh battery pack for the Volt would be close to $35,000 at 2006 prices. I am sure the costs have fallen in the last two years, but I don’t think they have decreased as much as some assume.
“Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. announced today that it shipped ten rapid-charge, high-power li-ion battery packs to Phoenix Motorcars, Inc. on schedule. The shipment of the ten 35 kWh battery packs fulfills and completes the $750,000 order placed by Phoenix in July 2006….
Altairnano replaces graphite anodes with its nano-Titanate material, which provides a very high surface area and reduces hazards by removing the graphite. The NanoSafe batteries charge in less than 10 minutes, have a power density of 4 kW/kg, have 85% charge retention at 20,000 cycles, will not explode and have no thermal runaway, according to the company.”
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/12/altair_nanotech.html
I know a little about batteries and would not feel safe with a fused Li-ion battery in my vehicle such as Tesla uses. Are many of you familiar with the term ‘thermal runaway’? Remember the bottle rockets we lit as kids? Thermal runaway is similar to that, the battery doesn’t ‘explode’, but it ‘vents gasses violently’. There new technology batteries will not do that, but they are more expensive than the earlier versions that have to be fused or protected in some manner for safety. Plus, the newer batteries can be discharged and charged at much faster rates without overheating danger. Overheating of the older Li-ion batteries due to high current draws in addition to charging the batteries too fast was the cause of thermal runaway.
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that the 20 mile aer volt would have an 8Kwh battery. Which is half the size of the 40 mile version.
The 20 mile range version will likely be cycled the full 50% more often than a 40 mile range version but there will be quite a few people that will use all of the 40 aer version each day as well. So predicted cycle life is probably for full discharge (50%).
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
This must mean that they’ve been crunching some numbers. If the car just needs to switch to the ICE once 20 miles are driven, then for anyone who drives less than that on a normal commute and rarely drives large distances, why WOULDN’T they want to buy a much cheaper car? A huge number of car buyers are in this category and a cheaper car would sell much much higher volumes! I agree if the 40 mile pack can be an upgrade option that’s a great idea…everybody’s happy!
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
#144 statik
I don’t agree with you on your possible resale. Unlike ICE vehicles; you’ve already pointed out the limits of battery technology and the expense of batteries. I don’t think most people would want to buy a used elect vehicle for that high a price simply because they won’t know battery condition and how it has been run. The risk of having to buy a new battery is simply too costly, especially if you have to depend on the car. I think ICE vehicles will be here for a long while and the smaller ones will continue to have a very high resale simply because it is easier to fix an engine than risk buying a new battery.
Perhaps when the batteries have proven themselves over the long run then you might be right.
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Dave@147
I have no idea why you felt attacked. My post was regarding the engineer in the article.
God Bless,
Tag
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
#112 NZDavid says:
“Dave G. You are confusing power with energy density. There is no reason why acceleration would be affected.”
I’m not confused. A smaller battery yields less energy density AND less power.
Why do you think the Tesla Roadster is so fast? Electric range and acceleration are BOTH related to the battery size.
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
wwskinn3:
I have read that the battery companies might be offering leases for the batteries. You could “buy the Volt, lease the battery”. Hopefully, those lease payments for the battery would be reasonable. You could lease your first Volt battery for 3-4 years or whatever and then get a new one in 2014 that has lower lease payments and gives you maybe 100 miles or more of all electric range. That’s what I am hoping will happen.
I hear that the lease payments on the first generation batteries might be affordable because even at the end of useful life for automobiles, the battery companies can sell them to electric utility companies. The utilities would use them to store electricity to balance electrical supply and demand … like in the summertime when everyone is cranking up their home A/C at 5-6pm when they get home from work.
We gotta hope that with each new generation of batteries, they get cheaper and give you more all electric miles. I’m hoping the battery industry will be like the computer chip industry. Better performance with each new generation and stable if not lower prices.
There might be a LOT of competition and innovation in the battery industry in the next 5-10 years. 1,000s of scientists and engineers will probably be working on energy storage technologies. They know the battery business could get HUGE … very soon. Innovation and competition tends to lead to better products … sooner and at better prices. Plenty of individuals and companies could get rich if they can design a better battery and a better “range extender battery charger”.
The battery business might be huge for the next 100 years like the IC engine business has been the last 100 years. Who knows what people will be driving in 2110? Electricity will be a big part of future transportation vehicles one way or another. Certainly not setting off little fossil fuel explosions with pistons and cylinders and driveshafts, etc. I’m sure the people of 2110 will think IC engines are primitive modes of transportation …. like we think of horses and buggies in the 1800s.
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
20 mpc is just not practical. Most of America is suburban or rural population. I understand the marketing end of this, but there needs to be a better solution to get the Volt cost down.Right now we are in a serious depression. Companies are going bankrupt due to the price of oil, laying off tens of thousands. Every family is cutting back spending. Food prices are going skyward due to high transportation costs.Trying to market a 40k or 30k electric car in this economic climate is EXTREMELY risky. Yes, there is a ready made niche market in dedicated environmentalists who have the money to spend. Having said this, we all know VOLUME sales drives GM. Fleet sales in Government and large companies, as well as John Q. Public. GM needs to look at the prices of cars that are selling NOW. The Aveos, the Cobalts and Impalas point the way in effective sales strategy. How many Aveos were sold this year vs last? How many Cobalts? GM can’t afford to price themselves out of the market.
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
#139 Tagamet
I think the photo is the concept Volt. It looks taller probably because the picture’s aspect ratio was modified during posting.
#141 wwskinn3
A used Prius is still commanding a good price.
#147 Dave
I don’t think changing Tagamet’s name to “Joe” or some other name would alter his anonymity or credibility. Also, it is possible his/her first name is “Tagamet.”
Tag: Maybe Dave thought you were talking about him with your, “IMO, this is just a loose cannon making mouth noise when he shouldn’t.” If that is the case, I thought it was clear that you were speaking about Tony Posawatz.
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Choices are good. I could use a 20-mile AER. My driving comes in two flavors… my day-to-day short commute and a short errand or two, easily covered by a 20-mile AER, and inter-city travel for which a 40-mile AER range would be inadquate.
An 8KWh Volt that saved me $K would be easier to justify than a more expensive 16KWh Volt.
GM would be far better off if someone had glued Bob Lutz’ lips shut a few years ago and never put the 40-mile range commitment on the table. GM wouldn’t be constrained by any kind of execu-blather and could simply build the best car possible, rather than distorting marketing or other capabilities to fit a commitment made before the technology was fully understood.
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Sorry Tag, I just get so upset with GM that it makes me mad. I currently own an Chevy Impala, Chevy Trailblazer, Chevy Corvette and a Pontiac Bonneville. The Bonnie issue realy makes me mad considering GM knew about these problems a long time ago and did nothing. I have my heart set on the Volt, my wife continues to laugh at me when she sees me gazing at the Volt at the auto show. I have always thought GM would come up with a reason for this not to work. I don’t care the cost of the car, I want one and I want one that does 40 miles or better on a charge. If Tesla can do it then darn it GM can!
Dave
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
The message I get is that the volt will be $50k for the 40 mile range one and $25k for a 20 mile (battery only) range. I drive 45 miles to work (one way), but if I can do that for a gallon of gas vs the 3 it takes me now, that seems like I am using 1/3 of the gas I was and that is a great improvement (and it still beats the Prius). I am not about to pay $50k for a car.
Maybe I should think of converting my old Bradley GTII to electric. I can get A123 batteries for $100 a pack (32 volts at 2.3 amp hours in a pack) on ebay, need 3 packs in series to get to 96 volts and 60 to get to 46 amp hours which will be $6000. The electric conversion kit will run about $4000 for an entry level kit closer to $10k for AC motor with regen braking. For another $9K I can get a Volt. hmmm
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June 14th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Thanks, ThombDbhomb
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
No Problem, Dave. Passion is good (and my wife laughs at me too. It’s when she POINTS and laughs that bothers me)
Be well,
Tag
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Oh yeah - my Bradley has no heat or air and I haven’t got a charger yet at that price. $25k for a Volt sounds like a Prius beater, if they can only keep the dealers from gouging.
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
This is very, very bad news. The worst news I have heard about the Volt since last year. Statements like this will have a HUGE impact on engineers’ problem-solving motivation. I believe poorly timed statements like this will hurt internal team drive, they now have less incentive to work for an efficient highest-end-possible EV, if idiot mangers like this make it clear that they can simply fall-back on a mediocre model. VERY VERY BAD MANAGER, I would re-assign him ASAP !!!
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
#153 Dave G
Dave G. You are right. A battery of the same type has power (kW) and energy (kWh) proportional to its size. However, A123 batteries have very good pulse power capability. For example, its tool cells have 20C capability for 10 seconds, i.e., a 8 kWh battery pack using these tool cells would be capable of providing 160 kW (210 hp) of power. This battery pack would be sufficient to power the Volt’s motor that is rated at 120 kW (160 hp) and provides a stated 0 – 60 mph acceleration in 8 to 8.5 seconds.
If the 20-mile Volt’s battery pack has a rating of less than 15C, then the Volt’s acceleration would be compromised but the addition of a ¼ kWh ultra-capacitor would solve any acceleration issues.
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June 14th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Why does every body think that the Volt will go just 40 miles on batteries alone? The volt will go much futher on batteries then just 40 miles, 180 miles, 190 miles, 200+ miles ? As for a Chevy Volt all eletric , it too will go futher then 20 miles, 140 miles, 150 miles , lower cost , bring it on gm.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
#165 Speedy — we think that because GM said, originally, that the Volt would do 40 miles all electric.
#163 Toyoda — Agreed, When the management throws in the towel, the staff below say ‘what the heck’ and stops trying. Too bad, because delivery still is a long way off, and many tasks, such as control software remain unfinished. These can be done well, or just done ‘to specs’, a huge difference in the perception of the car.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
#160 Tagamet
No problem. In defense of Dave, the timing and topic of your comments, relative to his, could easily have have been misinterpreted. In defense of Tony Posawatz, he was just musing. We should take Tony’s comments for what they were and not make more out of them than prudence suggests (i.e., we should not be loose cannons).
Dave: I’m sorry to hear about your prior GM experience. But, I’d think twice about getting away from GM now that they seem to have turned a quality corner. I think that, even if the Volt has quality issues, GM cannot afford to provide poor customer service. GM has a lot riding on the Volt.
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
LOL I have loved this conversation today. GM is doing a great deal fo market survey on this site. GM puts something out there and Lyle reports it. We all then debate it. You can not get this kind of information out of a focus group. You can not pay them to hang around that long. Hang in there Lyle we will make the Volt the MOST researched car GM ever put on the road. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
#167 Thomb With great respect, I don’t think Tony Posawatz, was just musing. I have no doubt that the original Volt is coming in at a much higher price than originally announced (as we’ve heard from multiple sources). No doubt that has caused a lot of consternation and discussion within GM-Volt management circles.
Mr Posawatz was speaking on the record and knew that his comments would be widely reported. I think he was reflecting GM internal discussions, if not decisions. Essentially he is saying that GM still wants and needs an electric car to more or less match the Prius, so they are going to cut back on specs that exceed those of Prius in the hope of getting close on price.
I had dreamed the dream of the original Volt, so I think the new version is a big let down. Still, I understand the motivation and the reality. They are behind Toyota in hybrids and trying to catch up, that is, at least be a close #2.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
A couple things have been percolating through my mind with the various announcements the last week and a half or so (The mules, the battery supplier, Toyotas sudden schizophrenic press releases)
1)
GM finally hired someone who knows how to market a product and do it well. In video games and movies it is common to be as transparent as possible during development until close to ship or when you have the product nailed down. Then you become confusing as all get out. Why? The transparency is a great marketing tool, it gets people to take ownership in your product before it is even released however, the downside of transparency in development has always been that, hey, everything IS out there for everyone to see, including your competition. Expect more odd statements in the future as GM tries to cloudy the waters they have kept clear for the last year or so. What this means for the Volt? It is almost set in concrete.
2) I believe GM is likely going to use both battery suppliers to lock them up. As others have said: one battery manufacturer has been more conducive to a 20 mile AER and one to a 40 mile AER. Pretty easy to make that contract with two suppliers: CPI: you may get less money but we expect the 20 AER Volt to produce a much higher volume A123: You get the 40 AER Volt at a higher price, we expect it to be lower volume but it WILL be the platform that all research is done for. The 20 mile AER and 40 mile AER is not very remodeling intensive. A 20 mile battery pack is going to fit into the same systems and footprint of a 40 mile battery pack.
3) Personal note: GM is not being deceitful or disingenuous in signing a contract then closing the plant. A contract is a labor contract, no contract or government should have the ability to force a company to keep people employed for whom it has no work for them to do. The contract was signed in good faith and, if GM had work for these workers to do I am sure they would love to keep the plant open and honor the terms of the contract but they don’t and so they shouldn’t have to.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I hate to say this but I can buy a Prius (NEW!) for $23K then buy the A123/Hymotion lithium-ion plug in pack for $10K. (http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion) That’s a $33K, for a 30-40 mile range electric car.
Come on GM. Toyota took a loss on the Prius for years to build acceptance and market share. Don’t drop the 40 mile range. You’ll LOSE to Toyota!
Or come on soon-to-be new Democratic administration. It’s time to lead the world — AGAIN.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I think many people are trying to read too much into Tony’s speech.
The Volt battery pack will have 16 kWh (minimum). At VoltNation, Bob Lutz mentioned an AER of 50 miles with a new battery, and 40 miles AER at end of life. I expect the Volt will be able to exceed many of its original specifications when released.
However, the Volt will likely be expensive, and the $10 k estimated price for the battery pack may be a reality.
Now, in a few years, GM will offer its Belt Alternator Start Plus (BAS+) system, as announced at the Geneva Auto Show. This new system will feature battery packs from Hitachi. See this link for more info:
http://www.hitachi.com/ICSFiles/afieldfile/2004/11/26/r2004_04_102_2.pdf
With a couple of the EV packs (93 Wh/kg, 29.3 kg each, and 85% DOD), the usable energy stored is 4.6 kWh. Since the Volt can go 5 miles per kWh, this equates to 23 miles AER.
Since GM will likely implement the BAS+ system into millions of vehicles over the next 10 years, this represents a low cost approach to utilize a standard high-volume product for the battery pack. It will also take less volume in the Volt, and allow the use of a third seat in the rear.
Again, Tony states they “could” introduce a 20 mile version, not that they will. Obviously, this option could drastically reduce the cost of the battery pack, and perhaps other systems as well (no battery coolant). I believe it is very smart of GM to look to the future and provide options, as it has been quite obvious from reading many of the posts on this site - you can’t please all of the people all of the time!
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I’m now rethinking my earlier comment (#5)
Quote: “They could offer it as a 20 miler package, with an option to upgrade later to a 40 mile package for a small additional premium. Swap it out - swap it in. But absolutely NOT a leased battery package.”
Now I’m thinking 40 is the minimum range I would accept. A 20 mile’r package would allow you only 10 miles one-way because you have to get home again! Why, I couldn’t even drive from home to the city of Seattle and make it home again on single charge!
My commute to work is 2 miles one-way, but giving up the ability to visit the nearest metropolis in the pacific northwest just isn’t going to cut it.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
NothernPike, great post! Clear, concise and to the point.
Now, I may have missed it, but I haven’t read anything on the reason GM is basing their milage estimates on 50% of battery capacity. I understand the last 30% of capacity is the point the on-board generator will kick in to provide electricity for recharging the battery pack. But what of the other 20%? Is that what GM is allocating for the electrical accessories, such as air conditioning or heaters? Has anyone read of anything as to the type of heater the Volt will use, such as electric, gasoline, or ??
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Silver:
Gm will not allow the battery to charge past 80% SOC because it would degrade the battery just like discharging past 30%.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
#169 RB
I agree with you. The article said, “In the future, GM could offer a battery pack with a 20-mile electric-only range to bring costs down, Posawatz said.” Perhaps I phrased my comment wrong. It is likely that a 20-mile Volt has been discussed at GM and that discussion topic came out through Posawatz. I don’t think he was acting as a loose cannon. The comment itself sounds more like musing than anything definite. GM seems to be thinking out loud. I’m glad GM is so public with their musings.
All things considered, their thinking and yours seem reasonable at this point.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
RyanP why do you say that you would be unable to drive to Seattle from your home with the 20 mile version of the volt? That doesn’t make any sence. I live in Louisiana and I could drive all the way to Seattle in the 20 mile aer volt!
KentT why are you asking GM not to drop the 40 mile AER version of the Volt? Do you have inside information. Can you point us to the source of that information. Is that info available online. I haven’t read anywhere about GM dropping the 40 mile AER version. Can someone help me out with this?
I feel sorry for GM.
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June 14th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
#174 57 Silver
I had a Corvair with a gas heater. I loved it. When the old girl got older I ran a duct back to the engine compartment. I also rewired the heater and installed an electric fuel pump. I would get up in the morning and fire up the heater. I would then eat breakfast. By the time I got out there the car was warm and would start. Fine little car.
Take Care
Arch
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
This is exactly why they should leave the ICE out. It just adds weight for the people who want the plug-in 20 mile each way to work and back.
Leasing the battery is a great idea so long as tax benefits match the depreciation and life of the battery. Many finance companies would love to operate this kind of business. Also, it allows them to offer upgraded capacity for longer trips, charge for miles driven, etc. If congress gives out tax credits to buyers of the car, though, the tax savings may be better in the hand of the driver.
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I think that GM should produce the 20 mile range as the standard and sell the 40 mile range as an option. A lot of people do not need a 40 mile range, 20 would be plenty. And why pay all that extra money for the extended range battery if you do not need it? And as time progesses, employers may provide a charge at work in the parking lot as a green benny. My employer already provides 120 VAC outlets in the parking lot for engine heaters (live in Minnesota)
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Steve@179
GM is trying to avoid “range anxiety” that would definitely discourage a LOT of potential buyers. They look to be shooting for the “Sweet spot” of 40 miles AER which meets over 70% of the total driving population in the USA. Fear of being stranded on the side of the road is huge. Maybe Volt V 3.0 will allow a longer AER without a range extender….
Having a leased battery as the only option would be one of my very few deal enders. JMO
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Arch,
I think you nailed it about the focus group and the time spent here everyday by most of us. It only seems fitting that that kind of valuable help from us should be rewarded by, say, a captive test fleet???
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
#56 koz
#114 voltman
#132 NorthernPiker
#164 NorthernPiker
All of these posts indicate that the A123 chemistry is so power dense that 1/2 the battery size will still provide ample acceleration.
Two questions:
1) What if A123 isn’t chosen? Bob Lutz said they are only testing one vendors packs in the mules because the other vendor is too risky. LG has said that their packs are the ones in the mules. See recent article on this site.
2) If a 1/2 sized A123 pack produces 8 KWh of energy storage and 160KW power when fully charged, then how much power does it provide when it’s 1/2 way discharged? Still 160KW?
I wouldn’t be surprised if this 20 mile range option was dreamed up by management / marketing but hasn’t yet been reviewed in detail by the battery engineers.
In other words, I still have significant doubts if the 20 mile range option will have adequate acceleration for U.S. drivers.
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Just looking at acceleration aspect of a car… I for one don’t car about that at all. As long as top end allows me to travel on the interstate with no problem slow acceleration doesn’t matter to me. But that is just me.
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
>> I wouldn’t be surprised if this 20-mile range option was dreamed up by management /
>> marketing but hasn’t yet been reviewed in detail by the battery engineers.
Since that’s where the 40-mile range came from in the first place, what’s your point?
The one-size-fits all approach never made sense anyway. Diversification was inevitable.
The goal is to develop a technology that can be spread along a chunk of the fleet, not to create a trophy vehicle.
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Dave G.
1) If A123 is not chosen to supply Volt batteries, the 20-mile Volt’s acceleration may be compromised but I do not have specs for CPI’s battery packs. A 1/4 kWh ultra-capacitor would store enough energy to accelerate a 3,000 lb. (~ 1400 kg) car to 60 mph (~27 m/second). The time to accelerate from 0 to 60 mph would be limited by the rest of Volt’s design - electric motor, etc.
2) The pulse power for A123’s PHEV batteries seems to be fairly flat over the 30 to 80% SOC range. A 1/4 kWh ultra-capacitor would render any discussion of battery power capabilities moot.
http://www.a123systems.com/#/applications/phev/pchart3/
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
#184 omegaman66,
I don’t think you are a typical American driver in this regard. For me what is most important is getting cars like the Volt to go mainstream. That means somewhere around 150hp for acceleration.
#185 john1701a,
I think you missed my point. I didn’t say it was bad to have different range options of the Volt. What I said is that a 20 mile option won’t have enough acceleration for typical American drivers.
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
#186 NorthernPiker,
Good news on the A123 power curve.
Two more questions:
1) Given that the 20 mile range is mostly about cost, how much would a 1/4 kWh ultra-capacitor cost? (ballpark)?
2) Acceleration is not the only issue for power. How about driving uphill? Would a 1/4 kWh ultra-capacitor provide enough power to drive, say, 3 miles up a 4% grade at 65 mph?
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
>> What I said is that a 20 mile option won’t have enough acceleration
>> for typical American drivers.
I was hoping it wasn’t the only focus. That debate ended years ago, when WANT became too excessive. The NEED is already fulfilled, even by the slowest vehicles here now. Take a closer look at Europe for perspective.
Priorities are changing now that the age-of-excess is over. $4 gas has arrived.
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
BillR;
“The Volt battery pack will have 16 kWh (minimum). At VoltNation, Bob Lutz mentioned an AER of 50 miles with a new battery, and 40 miles AER at end of life. I expect the Volt will be able to exceed many of its original specifications when released”
Thanks, BillR. I had not refreshed the page before I posted and did not see your post. That answered my question about why GM was quoting milage estimates based on 80% to 30& discharges. The 40 mile range is based on a battery pack at near the end of its useful life. A NEW 16 kWh battery pack should provide around 50 miles of useful range before the generator kicks in. In that case, an 8 kWh battery pack should provide about a 25 mile range when the battery is NEW and around 20 miles when near the end of its useful life.
Arch. Yes, a friend of mine had a turbocharged Corvair Monza convertible back when we were going to college. It had a gas heater and was great as one could get heat almost instantly, not having to wait for the coolant to heat up as with the heaters used with water cooled engines. They also used to sell gas heaters for the air-cooled VW bugs. If the Volt uses an electric heater, one should get quick heat also, but at the expense of some battery range.
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
#189 john1701a says:
“Take a closer look at Europe for perspective.”
I spent a month in Europe back in 93, another 10 days in 99, and another 10 days in 02. Lots of driving all 3 times. Gas in Europe was already $4 / gallon in the 90’s. I think it’s around $8 / gallon now.
And yes, all European cars I drove were underpowered by American standards. But Europeans never got used to powerful cars. Americans have. Getting Americans to change will be difficult.
For me what is most important is getting cars like the Volt to go mainstream. In the U.S., that means somewhere around 150hp for acceleration.
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June 14th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Dave G. your right… I agree I am not main stream when it comes to my acceleration demands for a passenger car. Now my truck is going to have to have some pulling power which I think will end up resulting in a fairly quick 0-60 time as well.
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June 15th, 2008 at 12:19 am
CLARIFICATION:
The Chevy Volt will be a car.
“E-Flex Propulsion” is a System
The Extended-Range Electric Vehicle (EREV) is a class of vehicle.
No $35k car will capture the budget car market, nor the luxury car market.
The Volt is simply the forerunner of a new drivetrain. It would be moronic to only make one EREV car. This simply means that GM believes they can make a cheaper EREV.
BTW, lowering battery range raises charge-discharge cycles.
LYLE: The Chevy Volt will have a 40 mile battery.
There may be a 20 mile EREV with E-Flex Propulsion.
Please don’t confuse the less astute among us.
EDIT: ooh, no more “sorry for the typo” posts!
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June 15th, 2008 at 2:28 am
I believe I know GM only too well.
My predictions:
1. Chevy Volt sales begin in 2011, 20 mile version, non upgradeable
2. Price: $40,000 plus. They vowed not to lose money on this car, remember?
3. No appologies from GM, they gladly settle for reduced range and need to get this bugger out the door due to high development costs.
4. Toyota jumps years ahead of the “new” Volt with their 2011 Prius.
Just remember…. “I told you so!”
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June 15th, 2008 at 4:49 am
It seems a good strategy to offer a 20 mile option in my opinion.
It should satisfy 40% of the population(a crude guess) and it will compete head on with the prius.
I suggest quite successfully as the Volt is designed around a large electric motor. The Prius is designed around an ICE and a smaller electric motor,a good plan for the 1980’s but a bad scenario now.
I think Toyota will have to rush a serial hybrid.
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June 15th, 2008 at 7:08 am
#194 Geo predicts:
“Toyota jumps years ahead of the “new” Volt with their 2011 Prius.”
I don’t think Toyota will catch up with the Volt by then, for 2 reasons:
1) Toyota is doing well right now, so they have less reason to takes risks.
2) The Prius is a parallel hybrid design with a very sophisticated transmission. This is nothing like the Volt. To build a car with all electric range at highway speeds, you need to:
a) forget the transmission and attach the electric motor to the wheels directly.
b) change from a DC brushless motor to an AC induction motor
c) change from NiMH batteries to Li/Ion batteries
So far, Toyota has only announced plans for c) (Li/Ion batteries). Note that AC induction motors are MUCH more complicated than the DC brushless motors that Toyota currently uses.
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June 15th, 2008 at 7:20 am
#195 bruce g:
A larger electric motor is only part of the equation. You also need a larger battery to power a larger motor. If the Prius had a larger electric motor right now, it still wouldn’t work because the batteries are too small.
This is why I don’t think the 20 mile range version of the Volt will work. Half the battery size equals half the range AND HALF THE POWER. A 20 mile version of the Volt won’t have enough acceleration.
Why do you think the Tesla Roadster is so fast? It has a very large electric motor AND a very large battery.
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June 15th, 2008 at 7:24 am
The road to lower Volt prices (sorry for the pun) is more through volume production than reducing the battery pack size. Some of the battery components are likely to be the same regardless of the battery size; the electronics and a/c.
Then there is depreciation and future trade-in value to consider. It will be “Kelly Blue Book”, “Edmunds” and other rating services that will set the value of your trade-in. Historically, 4-cyl cars depreciate faster and have less trade-in value than 6-cyl cars.
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June 15th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Half the acceleration for a Volt 20, eh ? Well, that changes things a little. Waaaay up at the beginning of this thread (#37), I did some calculations on the gas savings of the Volt 20, and determined that it “wasn’t too shabby”.
I take it back - I want a Volt, not a golf cart. If the Volt engineers cannot match the Volt 40’s acceleration, they might as well leave it on the drawing board. This is America - the land of massive acceleration. You either accelerate, or become the most hated person on the road very quickly. How happy were you the last time you got stuck behind a slow moving vehicle ?
The Volt 40 was hyped for its acceleration as being an equal to gas powered cars. The Volt 20, lacking that acceleration, would be a deal-breaker and one test drive might sour people on the Volt concept altogether (customer says “Volt 40 ? - if it drives like the Volt 20, I’m geting a Prius”. customer leaves dealer to buy a Prius). Way to go, GM !
GM never misses a opportunity to disappoint. Looks like GM plans to “go cheap”, and lose its customers again. GM needs to send a clear message - I believe Tony Posawatz’s head on a pike, in front of GM headquarters would send the right message to other “GM spokesman” wannabes.
Seriously, GM needs to speak with one voice, not dozens of voices from dozens of executives, engineers, etc, sowing discord and anger in the Volt faithful. I elect Bob Lutz to be that voice. It won’t happen though - GM loves their “trial balloons” (used to determine public opinion) too much.
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June 15th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Sorry if this WSJ article has already been posted, but it’s worth repeating…..
“Advances in lithium-ion battery technology will boost the range of electric vehicles to 400 kilometers (248 miles) by 2015, the head of research and development at Nissan Motor Co. said Wednesday.
“Mitsuhiko Yamashita, Nissan’s executive vice president for research and development, said advances in lithium-ion battery technology will dramatically boost the operating range of electric vehicles, potentially broadening their appeal. The breakthrough will come with so-called fourth-generation lithium-ion batteries that will be ready by 2015, he said.
“The current generation of lithium-ion batteries have a more limited range, confining the use of electric vehicles to mainly urban commute distances of under 100 kilometers.
“Speaking to reporters in Paris, Mr. Yamashita said the range of electric vehicles will be extended gradually with advances in battery technology. Second-generation lithium-ion batteries, available in 2010, will extend the range of electric cars to about 170 kilometers on one charge, and third-generation vehicles, ready in 2012, should give electric vehicles a range of between 290 and 300 kilometers, Mr. Yamashita said.
“Mr. Yamashita said key factors, such as the duration it takes to charge the new batteries would determine how widely they are used in electric vehicles. Nissan is planning to launch electric cars in the U.S. and Japan in 2010, and globally in 2012.
“In May, Nissan announced a joint venture with NEC to mass produce lithium-ion batteries. Production is set to start in 2009 with an initial capacity of about 13,000 units annually, a spokesman for Nissan said. Running at full capacity, Nissan hopes to raise production to about 65,000 units annually, but couldn’t say when full production capacity is set to be reached.
Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121320799221764997.html
======================================================
If Nissan has research to back this up, a 64kWh Li-Ion battery could be available to retrofit a Volt in only a few years. This battery could theoretically fit in the same space as the current 16kWh battery and provide a 160 mile range ……OR, a much cheaper Nissan-type 16kWh pack could be ADDED to a 20 mile AER Volt to increase its range from 20 to 60 miles AER!
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June 15th, 2008 at 9:00 am
I read somewhere that GM is very likely to add an ultracapacitor to the Volt to help with acceleration … only not for Volt 1.0. I think it would great if they DID add one for 1.0.
Americans will compromise some on acceleration and ability to climb steep mountains … but not TOO much. I read Bob Lutz say one time that they might be able to get the Volt to accelerate to 0-60 mph in 7-8 seconds. That’s good enough for the vast majority of people. When you get up to 10 seconds for 0-60 mph …. er, people will notice that. America has plenty of those highway on-ramps that are pretty short in length. You pretty much HAVE TO floor it to avoid having other cars hit the breaks and honk their horn at you.
This is why it is much harder to build cars in the $10,000-40,000 range. You have to make all these compromises because of costs. Volt 1.0 might not have an ultracap purely for cost reasons …. mainly the battery of course. The battery companies need to figure out how to get the cost of those batteries down somehow. They may HAVE TO manufacture it in China or build a highly automated factory in America or something.
One big cost that people are probably overlooking these days is the cost of the steel. China has been buying a LOT of steel just like they have been with oil … for bridges, dams, highways, buildings, etc. Their economy is growing like weeds these days.
Wall Street speculators have also jacked up the price of steel a good bit in the past year … especially that high strength steel that is lightweight. The big hedge funds and institutional investors have been distorting the normal trends in the commodity markets with their huge investments. One reason is because they don’t have many other sectors to put their money because of the mortgage mess.
This mortgage mess REALLY ticks me off. Wall Street can be very helpful for growing the economy but when they get greedy and incompetent and bend the rules to make money they sure as hell can SCREW UP the economy. Not just in America, but worldwide. Wall Street DEFINITELY needs to have better regulations … with teeth like they say. Human nature doesn’t seem to change all that much. If Wall Street has a shady scheme to make money that they think they can get away with, they’ll surely try to exploit it … no matter who might get screwed over later on.
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June 15th, 2008 at 9:10 am
>> forget the transmission and attach the electric motor
>> to the wheels directly.
The electric motor is already attached directly. Study the PSD. You’ll discover that’s how electric-only driving is possible without the gas engine moving at all.
>> change from a DC brushless motor to an AC induction motor
They don’t use DC brushless. Study the inverter. It’s all AC, and always has been.
>> I don’t think Toyota will catch up with the Volt
This isn’t a race for a trophy. Study economics. It’s all about sales, how much of the production is converted over to the new technology.
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June 15th, 2008 at 9:18 am
At 45k, the Volt would be heading into Tesla Whitestar territory. A big part of the Volt concept was that that the car was going to be affordable. If GM is “not going to underprice it” it will be just another me too, but with Tesla rather than Prius as the original.
As an aside, a note to everyone complaining that they can’t do this, that and the other if the battery range is 20 miles: you can still do it, you’d just have to (gasp) burn some gas. So relax.
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June 15th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Scene opens…
Tony setting at his desk, thinking “The 40 mile Volt was Bob’s stupid idea. A**hole ! Maybe now the board will see that it should be me running the Volt project, not Bob. Now I’m in the spotlight”. But he doesn’t hear two men creeping up in him from behind. Suddenly, a rag, smelling of chemicals, is pressed to his nose and mouth. He quickly passes out.
“Bob, he’s waking up”. Tony slowly raises his head and finds his hands cuffed and his legs tied together - he cannot move. He sees Bob. “Tony, I heard you have become GM’s newest celebrity. That interview you gave - I don’t recall you clearing what you said with me. A 20 mile Volt ? After I worked so hard, spent so many sleepless nights, and had to plead with the board for funding, only to have you undercut my authority and my project with a worthless piece of s**t, like the Volt 20 ? I’m afraid I have to reassign you, Tony. Boys, gag him”.
After Tony is gagged, Bob continues. “Since that I want to say is very important, I don’t want you to interrupt. I’m reassigning you to the auto junkyard in south Detroit. We have influence there. I ordered all the worker out for today, so you can conduct your, ah, study of what happens to old Gm products at the end of the line. You, Tony, are going to witness how cars are recycled from inside a car”.
Tony, through gag: “Hmmm hmmm hmmmmmmm!”
Bob: “Boys, get that sorry sack of s**t out of my office and get him, ahem, reassigned”. “Yes sir”.
Junkyard scene, Tony being stuffed into the trunk of an old, rusted out Bonneville. “Hmmm hmmmmmmm hmmmmmm” Hey, what’s your problem (evil laugh). We found ya a Pontiac for you to, study, right” ? One man to the other “Lets shut the trunk and get him, reassigned”. Hmmmm Hmmmmmmm, trunk lid slams.
Over the Detroit skyline, a crane lifts a nondescript old car into a car compacter. The compacter cycles, and a small metal cube emerges. Two guys leave the junkyard. “Who bought the beer last time ? I did. No, I did. That was last week, I bought it last Tuesday. If you did, I don’t remember it”. Arguing continues as scene fades to black.
If only it was true. (No GM executives were hurt in the making of this story)
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June 15th, 2008 at 9:44 am
From GM’s point of view, I believe this is a good idea. I was saying a year ago that a 20 mile Volt would be ok if they can get it out sooner (at that time, we thought the battery tech wasn’t ready for a 40 mile car). Though we don’t have enough info to be sure, a lower price will appeal to a wider audience.
What I hope is that the $30 to $35 thou. version doesn’t become the 20 mile Volt., and the 40 mile becomes the $40 thou. Volt.
In the end, though, GM can’t conduct business by losing their shirt selling 100 thousand plus Volts losing $10,000 each.
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June 15th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Cost estimates of ¼ kWh ultra-cap widely vary:
- Cheaper than li-ion batteries (EEStor); no independent confirmation
- Requirement is $2500, or $10/Wh, (2007 NREL presentation)
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/41969.pdf
- $12,500, or $60/Wh (2006 EVWorld article)
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1006
As for power to go “3 miles up a 4% grade at 65 mph”, an ultracap is not required. The battery pack is quite able to provide the 30 kW needed to overcome the 5 kW of rolling resistance, 9 kW of aerodynamic drag and 16 kW to go up a 4% grade at 65 mph.for 3 minutes, which translates to a total energy expenditure of 1.5 kWh.
Now, I have question for you. Why do you insist that an 8 kWh battery pack is incapable of providing sufficient acceleration when there is insufficient info on the battery packs to come to such a conclusion? The Volt specification states 0 to 60 mph in 8 to 8.5 seconds. I expect GM will meet or come quite close this spec for a Volt with a 20-mile AER.
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June 15th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Wow, I guess GM is picking up from the food marketing people “Lets SHRINK everything, and charge them relatively MORE!” This would allow GM to now state a much lower base model price for a range that my farts could propel me further on (and I’m not a gassy guy!). Don’t do it GM. I want to buy American for the first time and you’re already validating why I never have. Set the bar high and not low enough where you trip and fumble over it.
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June 15th, 2008 at 11:52 am
I work 15 miles from home so the Volt/20 would not make it all the way to and from work without the generator kicking in. Does this bother me? No, not at all because for the last 10 miles a day at 50mpg I can drive for a week for about $4.00. If my company were to add in plug in stations (which will become common) then I wouldn’t hit the generator at all. I see in the future, parking lots will have plug in stations where you drop in a quarter and charge your car all day long.
The car looks great and estimated performance isn’t bad at all for an electric. Plus I never saw the advantage to the standard hybrid. The Volt is a jump forward in technology and will build the foundation for many different types of energy sources for cars of the future.
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June 15th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
This would be a catastrophic mistake.
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June 15th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
#156 ThombDbhomb -
I agree that the Prius commands a nice price in the used market, however, It is still a gas powered vehicle and if the battery is shot you can still drive it. Not so with an all electric vehicle. I’m saying that people will be hesitant about buying an all electric used vehicle considering the cost of batteries.
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June 15th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I’m perplexed.
If the first Volt 40s are $40k and two years later the price of batteries drop will they reduce the price?
DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY WILL DO THAT?
I don’t.
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June 15th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
everyone:
Do car companies typically offer a car with a 6, 10 or 14 gallon tank option? I think that this is a bad idea to offer a 20 mile option for a few reasons:
1) confusion on what the Volt is and what it can do. All research points to 40 miles as the key number. Don’t confuse people while you are building your name.
2) stay focused on one simple target, don’t complicate things. When the Volt is a worldwide success, then you can get fancy.
3) with only 10,000 - 60,000 cars being produced in the first year I doubt that you will have any issues selling only volt 40 models even at $35,000.
My two cents
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June 15th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
#197 Dave G,
Ampere Hours are not the same as Amperes in my physics test.
Some commentators have suggested that the a123 batteries may have enough power for a short time to achieve the 8.3 seconds 0-60mph even in a 20 mile range configuration. That sounds fine to me.
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June 15th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
#202 john1701a,
We’ve been down this road before. A DC brushless motor uses magnets. An AC induction motor doesn’t use magnets. The Toyota Prius Motor uses magnets.
Both DC brushless and AC induction have similar controllers (a.k.a. inverters). In fact, the controller hardware could be identical. But the firmware to control an AC induction motor is vastly more complex. The AC induction motor is much cost effective and efficient for higher power applications. All parallel hybrids to date have used DC brushless. AC induction is used for the EV-1, Tesla Roadster, tzero, and the Volt. See teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45 for details.
As for a direct connection to the wheels, I don’t consider a CVT transmission a direct connection.
But the real issue in my mind is that Toyota is in much better shape than GM, so they will probably stay away from revolutionary new designs. In fact, their stated goal has been evolutionary rather than revolutionary.
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June 15th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
#213 bruce g says:
“Ampere Hours are not the same as Amperes in my physics test.”
I’m not sure what your point is here. Obviously energy is different than power, but both scale with the size of the battery.
MAYBE A123 can supply enough power with a half size 20 mile range battery, but what happens if A123 isn’t chosen to power the Volt?
Also, power is necessary for both acceleration and uphill driving. The power required to drive up a steep mountain be may significantly more than the power to accelerate from 0 to 60.
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June 15th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Someone mentioned resale value a while back…
Why would you be concerned about the life of the batteries after two years.. As I recall, it was mentioned that GM would have a warranty of 10 years on the batteries, thus why they’re only using 50% of the battery’s capacity, to maximize lifespan.
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June 15th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Dave G,
The decision on the Volt 40 battery does not automatically determine which battery is used on a future 20 mile EREV. Although I would probably prefer a 20 mile Volt over a different cost reduced 20 mile EREV, Tony Pasawitz’s comments lead me to believe this is what GM is thinking about. This would be the only way to halve the price. In this case, I would expect a lesser performing car, but you can be sure they will consider maintaining the chosen performance during normal prolonged or pronounced hill climbing.
Getting back to my preference and a 20 mile Volt for one of my household vehicles. I live in South Florida, so uphill power is of little concern to me, but I do understand that GM has to design for this. As noted by others a A123 pack will have little difficulty maintaining legal highway speeds, even on grades. The concern will be passing power on steep grades. If the battery can supply max power on level ground, it can still be provided on grades. Accelerating for a velocity delta using the same power will result in lower acceleration rates and longer acceleration periods on grades. GM’s engineers will have to design for this, but remember the 20 mile EREV will be about 150lbs lighter which somewhat offsets the lower battery capabilities.
The average daily travel distance for 50% of Americans is 25 miles or less. I’m fairly confident a large percentage of this half of the population will see value in a 20 mile EREV that is at least $5,000 less than 40 mile versions.
Just
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June 15th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
#215 DaveG,
OK, people that drive over mountains may need the bigger battery.
But that is part of the pleasure of being a consumer.
One size doent fit all and as automotive consumers we have been used to mix and matching a variety of engines to suit our needs.
Also,facilitating on a range of battery sizes may also facilitate battery upgrades at a later date.
However my main point is I believe that GM going head on against Toyota with a similar but better car is good for us all.
.
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June 15th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
I meant to include this link with my previous comment.
http://mydocs.epri.com/docs/CorporateDocuments/EPRI_Journal/2005-Fall/1012885_PHEV.pdf
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June 16th, 2008 at 4:01 am
>> All parallel hybrids to date have used DC brushless.
Prius is not a parallel hybrid, it is a series-parallel. Just accept it already… as well as the reality that the system uses AC electricity, including the motors.
https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/staticcontent/en/techinfo/html/prelogin/docs/1stprius.pdf
https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/staticcontent/en/techinfo/html/prelogin/docs/2ndprius.pdf
POWER CABLE = Carries 3-phase Alternating Current (AC) between inverter/converter, motor, generator, and A/C compressor.
INVERTER/CONVERTER = Boosts and inverts the high voltage electricity from the HV battery-pack to 3-phase AC electricity that drives the electric motor. The inverter/converter also converts AC electricity from the electric generator and motor to DC that recharges the HV battery-pack.
ELECTRIC MOTOR = 3-phase AC permanent magnetic electric motor contained in the transaxle.
ELECTRIC GENERATOR = 3-phase AC generator contained in the transaxle.
A/C COMPRESSOR = 3-phase AC electrically driven motor compressor.
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June 16th, 2008 at 7:59 am
#220 john1701a,
All DC brushless motors use 3-phase alternating current pulses between inverter/converter and motor. This is just Toyota’s marketing department playing games with names.
The fact is that Toyota does not use an AC INDUCTION motor. When most engineers say “AC motor” they mean induction.
AC induction motors use coils instead of magnets in the rotor, and this makes the software in the controller much more complex, but also makes the motor much more efficient in higher power applications.
Permanent magnet based motors (whatever you call them) don’t scale well to higher power applications. In addition, magnets aren’t cheap, so a larger motor based on magnets will be expensive.
This is why I think Toyota is behind on electric motors. I’m sure they can catch up quickly if they want to, but there are still a lot of detailed design issues and testing that will take some time.
Again, if you want details on the difference between brushless and induction motors, look here:
teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45
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June 16th, 2008 at 9:54 am
What would be sweet. Is if they designed the battery packs to be easily dropped out of the bottom. So you would simply place the Volt on a lift. Unbolt the battery pack. And lift the car up and away.
Pop-in a new or upgraded battery pack. Lower the Volt down. Bolt & go… (well, re-connect the power cord). *lol*
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June 16th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Amazing. You guys STILL don’t realize you’ve been played for suckers in a GM FUD attempt that went wrong.
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June 16th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
#3 Jason M. Hendler:
Exactly right. As Dr. Maturin would say, “I am of your mind exactly.”
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June 17th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
While you all are bickering about 20miles versus 40miles, you seem to miss the fact that the 40 miler gets 640 miles to tank of fuel .So what if its only 20 miles of electric only range you’re still going to get 620 miles to the tank . Thats still over 51 mpg . More if you have access to an outlet , and emissions will be much less than present day hybrids!
The question that remains is affordability. If only the upper middle class can afford one its pointless the masses need an affordable low to mid $20k option. not $35-40k or more .
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June 22nd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I believe that people could be convinced to invest in vehicles with a different and longer term mindset than they do today.
If the vehicle could be more durable so that 15 years was a “normal” car lifespan then longer term finance would make sense. People would refurbish and remodel rather than replace. The focus should be on durability and re-sale value, just like it is with real estate.
Making the car a more durable and reliable asset would encourage the market to come up with creative financing options. If it becomes this kind of asset (much less depreciating than cars of today) then who cares (within reason) how much it costs? $60k for 100m? Bring it on.
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June 23rd, 2008 at 6:19 pm
The 20 mile range is ridiculous. People who only drive 20 miles a day will be surprised. I rented a RAV4 in 2001 with a 100 mile range. I watched the battery drop 25% in 6 miles climbing up Palos Verdes hill in LA. Pretty scary when you are not near a recharging station. Of course you got 9% back going back down. Most 7 mile commutes have side trips to the store, barber, etc. which increase the mileage substantially. The loss of this flexibility means you mine as well use the bus. A 20 mile range car is very limiting for most people and the PR from seeing stranded VOLTS will devastate their image. A series hybid option makes sense, they need to find better ways to reduce cost unfortunately they might not be able to eat the lose for the first five years while they get their costs down and volume up.
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July 26th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
GM….Pray for EEstor!!!
Before I buy your 20 mile, 35K VOLT, I will start riding my bicycle.. and I won’t have to worry about having to push my VOLT home with dead batteries…how much has GM you spent to date on this??
No government bail-out….bye bye GM….
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July 26th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
PDNFTT
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