GM May Acquire Hybrid Battery Supplier Cobasys
GM has had to recall 9000 NiMh battery packs, made by Cobasys, which are being used in the mild hybrid versions of the VUE, Aura, and Malibu.
This represents one third of the entire fleet. The reports of battery failures apparently began surfacing in December, when drivers became aware of them via dashboard indicators displaying low voltage. The packs apparently had internal electrolyte leaks that led to the loss of voltage.
This story alone speaks of the importance of assuring the Volts packs are robust before going to widespread roll-out. The mild hybrids can still drive, but offer no hybrid benefit.
Now GM is apparently looking into the possibility of acquiring Cobasys, and may even “imminently ” do so.
Cobasys, co-owned by Chevron and Energy Conversion Devices, has been experiencing financial difficulties and internal feuding. The venture is reportedly at the point of “fold or be sold”.
Since all of GMs current major hybrids, and thus their current green turnaround, are based on Cobasys’ batteries, a collapse of the firm could spell big trouble to the already beleaguered automaker. Although GM has recently indicated they have no interest in making batteries, they may have no choice but to buy the firm.
Of course there is plenty of irony (or should we say nickelry) in this story, as GM actually co-founded Cobasys in a joint venture with Ovonics in 1994, later selling their stake with Texaco, who merged with Chevron.
Source (Automotive News)
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June 6th, 2008 at 11:35 am
wow!
June 6th, 2008 at 11:36 am
1st
June 6th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Its funny, this is the current name of the partnership they sold to Texaco (was it 5 years ago?) controlling patent and NiMH battery technology (after they killed the EV1 and bought Hummer) - presumably to bury the NiMH technology forever. Currently Cobasys cannot make any NiMH battery sale for transportation related uses with an explicit thumbs up or down from Chevron (which bought Texaco and presumably doesn’t like electric cars) - EV enthusiasts and people wanting to support RAV4 EVs have never been able to buy NiMH batteries from Cobasys.
I hope GM had a clause in the agreement to sell their ECD partnership share to Texaco that allows them to buy it back and get away from Chevron’s overcontrolling hand on Cobasys and its battery sales. I’d bet they were smart enough to do that.
June 6th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Seeing as how GM is going to build serial plug-in hybrids, it just makes common sense to buy a battery supplier.
Now what would really be nice is if Chevron would allow Nickel Metal Hydride batteries to be used in them.
June 6th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Sasparilla # 3 you beat me to the punch.
June 6th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Sorry for the double post, this would be smart, if GM can wrest away Chevron’s control of NiMH sales in the process. For all the advantages of Lithium Ion, NiMH batteries will last virtually forever when kept within certain charge ranges (why you don’t hear about Prius’s needing new batteries even though a bunch are over 200k miles). NiMH will still the battery of choice (from a life point of view) for regular hybrids and mild hybrids for quite a while. Just my $0.02
June 6th, 2008 at 11:46 am
One Word. Fate.
June 6th, 2008 at 11:47 am
>> plenty of irony (or should we say nickelry)
Now THAT’s my kind of turn of phrase!
June 6th, 2008 at 11:51 am
This is the end of the road for Cobasys. It was a decent idea, it just never translated…the recall was the last straw I guess. They lost 76 million in 07 and they figure to drop about 90 more this year.
It has been propped up of late by a ” unnamed customer (that) has supported the company by providing a loan for equipment purchases and agreed to pay higher prices on products purchased from Cobasys, the filing said. (It might be GM?).
This could work out for GM in the long run, if the price is right…or it could be GM just attempting to give lifeblood to a supplier?
I’m really not sure on this one..anyone with thoughts/speculation?
June 6th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
It has got to be hard for GM to keep bailing out suppliers. How long can this continue when they are burning cash at such a rapid rate in their operations?
June 6th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
To buy Cobasys is in GM’s best interest at this juncture. Better to control your battery supply when you’re trying to move from ICE based vehicles.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Living between a rock and a hard place.
This is old, dead end technology, a financial sinkhole. GM does not have the brand of management talent needed to whip a dead horse like this back into life. On the other hand …
Hopefully, in a year or so, GM can find an another oil company to unload it.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
OK - if GM co-founded CobraSys in a joint venture in ‘94 then “later” sold their stake to Chevron/Texaco … can someone tell this ignorant American when or why GM was using Cobrasys as their battery supplier in the first place?
I mean I guess it sort of works out that GM sold their stake since they made leaky batteries … but GM is still the one “with egg on their face” for all the recalls …
I dont know I just want a Volt that has a good battery.
PS. I love seeing people that post “1st” that end up NOT being first, dont you?
June 6th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
If an OIL company owns a battery company, how could it be in their best interest to build batteries that would lead to less OIL business?
Isn’t that like buying “healthy lifestyle” books published by a cigarrette company…?
Why would anybody buy a product sold by a company, whose best interests would be enhanced by the failure of that product?
I don’t understand why GM would choose them as a supplier in the first place…
June 6th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Yet another twist in the incredibly ironic GM/EV1 story. Is that Stan Ovshinksky I can hear? Sounds like “I told you so!”.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
This is exactly why it make perfect sense for GM to slowly roll out the Volt. Keep issues to a minimum. The last thing GM needs is a major recall on the Li-ion batteries.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
#13 Murray
“I love seeing people that post “1st” that end up NOT being first, dont you?”
It’s a surefire sign gm-volt.com has hit the big time when you start seeing people warring over 1st. (Dunno if the advent of the ‘Ist’ is a good or bad development)
June 6th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
This is great!
GM can replace them with Li-Ion packs and prove how ready the tech is and how far ahead of Toyota they are!
June 6th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
It appears that NiMH batteries are starting to transition to Li/Ion, even in conventional hybrids. So why would GM want to buy this company now? Does Cobasys have the capability to manufacture Li/Ion? Also, what happens if EEStor is for real? NiMH and Li/Ion will both be antiques.
Right now, I would think the best approach for GM would be to have different suppliers compete. When the technology matures, then GM can acquire the capability to build them internally.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Statik: I’ve been thinking about this one since yesterday since it totally threw me for a loop.
Here’s a couple possible angles to think about. First couple from the Chevron angle:
The oil companies are making so much money on, well, oil, that they’re looking to jettison everything else that is not oil because it’s dragging on profits. For example BP is fishing around to sell it’s highly regarded solar business. If Cobasys is having trouble, Chevron may be looking to unload it even more.
Second thought strain:
The oil companies invested in various technologies trying to lock up the dominant positions and sort of rebrand themselves as general energy companies “we deliver energy!” and that sort of thing. Ok, fine, but they kind of dragged their feet and the rest of the tech sector has been bypassing them. Eg. Roll print solar cells over sliced silicon, lithium ion over nickel metal hydrides. So, they’re looking to sell out before the units become worth less than they are now. Knowing when to exit at the top of your game is a good strategy, too.
Anyway, from the GM angle, the only other immediate major source of NiMh batteries is going to be Panasonic (EV Energy Co). Matsushita owns 60% and Toyota owns 40% (at least when they created the joint venture, that was the split).
So, on the surface, GM might not like to give 40% of its battery business to Toyota. But its even worse than that. Toyota and Matsushita have been cross buying each other’s stocks. They are very, very, er, “cozy”. GM might not even be able to negotiate a deal with PEVEC at all. This leaves them royally hosed in the short term if Cobasys goes down the tube. They have probably reached the conclusion there is no other choice but to buy it or shore it up somehow.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
GM should look to put Li Ion batteries into those vehicles, and forget NiMH altogether. They don’t have money to piss away on dead tech.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
#20 Dave
It could be very well alot of things. Interesting thought about how the tech has been passed…so time to dump, not really sure about it…could be part of the reason.
Funny how we were just talking about Toyota and Honda hitching their wagons to NiMH, but they are both keeping their foot in the door with small Li-Ion factories (1.5million NiMH vs 20K Li-Ion capacity).
Seems like the opposite can be true here. GM is more Li-Ion focused and now has a foot still in NiMH.
It interesting…I mean, it is such a ridiculously small acquisition/takeover/bailout (whatever) it is really just a talking point…but still interesting.
Other news: GM just hit another fresh 33 year low. $16.32…makes that $1.00 dividend 6.1% though. Small consolation if you are holding the stock on the way down however.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
If it truly is a fold or sold situation and GM is currently in production using these products, they’d be crazy to let it fold and then have nothing to put in their cars or scramble and risk getting something inferior. Sounds like they may be up against stopping hybrid production if the company folds or just buy the company and figure out what their problems are and then give them the help they need to turn their program around.
To me, this issue underlies the importance of going with 2 battery designs for the Volt. It may be slightly cheaper to go with one company ordering 2x the batteries, but when you start having recalls and issues with that lone supplier you can get screwed real quick! 2 suppliers gives you healthy competition and there is no reason you couldn’t do a 70% 30% split or Europe = battery maker 1 and USA = Battery maker 2. In the long run could make good business sense seeing how new this battery technology is.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Oh, a question for your super long timers on this site…
Around the beginning of last year the folks at A123 were planning to partner with Cobasys on making lithium ion battery systems for cars (and indeed, initial blogging indicated that would be a potential team for the \Volt battery). But now for the \Volt, A123 partnered with Continental.
What happened? Is Cobasys still involved on the A123 end and we just don’t talk about them? I couldn’t find anything in “the google” that explained what happened to Cobasys’ involvement.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
statik,
I agree, I think the owners of Cobasys see the writing on the wall, and are trying to force GM to buy them, so that they can cash out.
Gsned57,
GM is shuttering a number of product lines, and as these mild hybrid solutions aren’t selling that much, GM should just kill it and focus on the Volt and its variants using diesel and hydrogen.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I don’t know much about the Cobasy dealings, other than their batteries appear to be utter duds. But I do know human nature to the point that if GM wants to sell the Volt it will have to clear up this Cobasy matter and fast, because it will certainly shake confidence in the Volt.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
The BAS hybrids don’t sell principally because GM doesn’t supply them to dealers. The Saturn dealer would LIKE to have hybrid Auras for people but can’t get them.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
# 25 Jason, GM just gave something like $200 million dollars to end an axle union strike. I don’t think they are even going to get anything out of it except getting people back to work. I really doubt it would be in their best interest to have the headlines read GM cuts all of their hybrid car production lines because of battery problems. GM has had more than enough bad press and although they are hurting on cash, it goes completely against this Green Motors (did I just make that up) image they are trying to put out there.
I realize Axles are kind of important to every production line and hybrid sales are tiny in comparison to regular auto sales, but I think in this case they have an image albeit a very new one to grow untill November 2010
June 6th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Gsned57 23
I would have to disagree with you a little, GM needs to go with the best battery design, maybe made by two companies. If one battery design is inferior to the other why would GM use it ? You wouldn’t want a lot of failures in half the units. If both battery companies are properly managed their shouldn’t be a lot of problems with the product. Cobasy appears to be poorly managed and this has resulted in a bad product.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
And now you know why the Pentagon insists upon at least two suppliers for every piece of hardware it buys.
Now where are those morons who are claiming that electric cars
are inherently more reliable? Doesn’t quite work that way. While the technology is simply and SHOULD be more reliable, that doesn’t mean it always will be. And since when are today’s modern gas powered cars unreliable? Mine certainly isn’t. And it needs a tune up once every 100,000 miles, which mostly consists of changing the spark plugs. And yet there are folks out there convinced that EVs
will save them lots on maintenance. Apparently they believe that the electric windows, power steering, etc. in an EV are somehow different and more reliable than those in a gas powered car. The ignorance out there is astounding. And mostly found in those shilling for electric cars. They are really either dumb or big, big liars.
Used car salesmen aren’t looking all that bad these days.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
I think the reason for using NiMH in some applications over Li is for one price… ie. cost/kwh. May not be as light or compact, but cost/benefit analysis….
Here’s an interesting (unverified) tid bit from http://ev1.org/ …. “Cobasys will also receive royalties through December 31, 2013 on certain NiMH batteries sold by [Toyota] in North America.”. Probably because the patent expires in 2014.
I still think GM could have had the Volt to market sooner if they had gone with NiMH for the 1st generation, even if it wasn’t 40 miles EV only range (though the Rav4-EV still gets 90+ miles/charge on their NiMH, and that’s an SUV (though small for an SUV)! Keeping in mind that with the LiIon the Volt only uses 1/2 it’s battery capacity… I imagine with the Cobasys NiMH it uses more of it’s capacity so you wouldn’t need as much to get the same usable 8kwh capactity.
Remember it’s always been the battery that’s the gating item for the Volt. The EV technology, even range extended EV technology, is old hat, even to GM.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
This is from the Energy Conversion Devices Quarterly Report. In the report they also mention a lot about the pending litigation with Chevron. If GM wanted to pick this company up I can’t see how it would cost them more than a few million dollars. We’re not talking big cash to have control over your battery manufacturer
Cobasys
The Company recognized $238,000 and $714,000 as revenues from license agreements in each of the three and nine months ended March 31, 2008 and 2007, respectively, in connection with the amortization of a license fee received in July 2004 from Panasonic EV Energy Co., Ltd. as part of a settlement of a certain patent infringement dispute.
The Company recorded revenues from Cobasys of $186,000 and $413,000 for the three and nine months ended March 31, 2008, respectively, and $222,000 and $664,000 for the three and nine months ended March 31, 2007, respectively, for services performed on behalf of Cobasys (primarily for advanced product development testing and other services).
June 6th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Speculatively, I wonder if the purchase is mainly a financial action — the price is right. GM wants the company to keep operating because they use its products. If GM is able to buy the company (and thus control it completely) for little more cash outlay than they now are under contract to pay for batteries, GM’s expenditures remain the same. So GM wins (if the price is right). The current owners, who see Li-ion’s star rising, are able to get out gracefully so they win too, compared to alternatives Even such a distress sale is better for everyone than if Cobasys simply folds.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Gsned57,
Do you work for Cobasys? That is exactly the gambit they are playing. GM doesn’t have to shut down the lines, they can allow Cobasys to collapse, then claim they won’t offer those vehicle lines again until they qualify another supplier, or replace those batteries with Li Ion.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Jason M. Hendler 25
I think the GM hybrid lines will disappear if the Volt lives up to our expectations. I’ve asked this question before but have received no response, ‘who would by a hybrid with a dynamic Chevy Volt being prduced’.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Ah good old kent… just because an EV is not 100% reliable, does not mean it’s reliability is the same or worse than an ICE-V. Congrats for you for having an ICE-V that has gone 100k miles and only needed oil changes. That’s definitely the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.
And obviously we are talking drive train, not accessories like power windows, seats, etc. I’d take an electric drive train any day from a maint/repair standpoint.
I tell you what Kent, keep your ICE-V when oil is $200/barrel, probably not far with a new record of $138 today.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Since this article is about battery suppliers (and I like to be on topic), I thought I would mention this one again. I won’t risk a link (to avoid moderation), but it’s lionev dot com. I read more about them last night, and now I’m very impressed.
They sell electric car battery systems, battery controllers, motor controllers, full DIY conversion kits, and new (even guaranteed) converted vehicles (like Ford Ranger) that goes (they claim) up to 200 miles for around $40K.
Please don’t be put-off by their crappy looking web site, since some of the content (like the “DIY Ranger” tab) is very interesting. I just thought this was way too cool not to share, especially since I’ve seen several people on this site asking for such a product. I’m not affiliated with their company in any way. Enjoy.
June 6th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
I didn’t read it above (or did not understand) but does anyone think the oil companies had an ulterior motive for wanting to own this company? Could they have slowed down production to enhance their own bottom line (oil production)? I don’t know the answers to these questions but something here looks “fishy.”
June 6th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Lithium Ion replacements for existing hybrids designed for Nickel Metal Hydride technology means creating new sizes for the Li/ion, to provide a completely different usage cycle than what has been researched (for over a year) for the Volt. Even if doing this turns out to be fairly simple in comparison to the development of the Volt battery, it’s likely to take time, and they need to get these recalled cars back on the road yesterday.
And what do they do with those new, expensively developed mini-batteries when the Volt comes out?
Li/ion replacements for existing hybrids is a job for some after-market supplier, 6 - 8 years from now; when Prius batteries start dying (if people would still like to save those cars from the scrapper then — unlikely, if the Volt takes off in 2 - 3 years).
June 6th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
haha no, I’m just an engineer who wants a volt. I do own some energy conversion devices stock don’t know if I need to disclose that (not enough to buy a volt so I don’t own much at all).
You think the general public will blame Cobasys if GM says hey we’re killing our hybrid lines for a while? They just invested big $$$ to get those lines going and they probably have a business case for keeping them going.
I think EREV’s are the way to go and would be happy if GM phased out their Hybrids with LIIon EREV’s tomorrow, but it’s going to take time and in the mean time with $4 gas I think Hybrids are a good bridge when done effectively. GM has a stake in what Cobasys does, ECD and Chevron don’t seem to care too much about Cobasys anymore and want to get rid of it, so it seems like a good fit to me.
June 6th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
#40, Gsned57,
GM didn’t create production lines of hybrids, they are merely adding options to an existing line of standard models. The public won’t blame GM for a supplier failing to deliver batteries that don’t leak.
June 6th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
If this doesn’t convince GM to cut contracts with both A123 and LG Chem for the Volt’s Li Ion battery packs, I don’t know what will.
June 6th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
If they do that don’t expect to see a volt until way past 2010. What would they do if the cut ties with A123 and LG? If they had the capacity to make batteries themselves they would but as they said they didn’t want to get into the battery business
June 6th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
I think it has already been reported that both companies (A123 and LG Chem) will both get something. I think it was one gets the volt the other gets some development contract or something.
I don’t think this is good for GM. If they wanted this company then why did they sell? They are buying a failing company so what make anyone think a bloated company can actually do a more profitable job with the batteries?
That said it sounds like GM had its back against the wall and had no choice. Bail them out or loose all or most of your hybrid capability.
This whole conversation illustrates another thing. People seem to think that just because li-ion is better than nimh that nimh just goes away and that oil companies just go away when we don’t use gas anymore. Wrong. It isn’t that simple. Oil will never go away in any of our life times and the oil companies will be around with a world demand of zero gasoline. Li-ion battery production is going to be a limiting factor for quite a while.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
DaveP
I checked both A123 and Cobasys sites and as of last March, they had agreed to partner on Li-ion batteries. I couldn’t find any subsequent postings. Perhaps Cobasys’ financial problems scared A123 off and they went in other directions. If the agreement is still in place, that could be an advantage for GM for both mild hybrids using NiMh and later hybrids using lithium technology.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
It’s people like kent #30 that make be thankful for Toyota. See how quickly they discount the technology because some company, that was probably just formed to delay battery adoption (not great motivation to make the best battery with the best people), screws up? If Toyota’s batteries were not performing perfectly right now the entire EV movement might be damaged.
I love how the naysayers will simply brush off the EV even if it’s still brand new technology and has to compete against established ICE technology that has had countless amounts of time and money invested in development. Can everyone start to now see what we are up against?
We must be forceful and move towards the electrification of the automobile regardless of people like kent #30. There will be all kinds of motivation to kill the EV. The motor has only one moving part, the battery has no moving parts and an EV platform could potentially last for several decades without maintenance. Business owners and governments might be nervous about that. Not as many taxes collected, not as much revenues for new cars or maintenance. I think there will be all kinds of “accidents” with new EV technology. Lithium-ion battery explosions, people killed, etc. It will happen because it’s happening everyday with normal cars. Every EV “accident” will be brought to the front page of newspapers. People like kent #30 will immediately say, “I told you so! EVs are evil technology!” We much not let it distract from our course. The electrification of the automobile is just too important for the world’s future.
Thank you kent #30 for being such a great example of what we need to watch out for.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Based on my time at one of the Volt’s battery suppliers, it is entirely feasable that the Volt battery pack will have significant problems. The liquid cooling system, the switched capacitor opto-electronics… would never be designed in by a Toyota due to quality and long term reliability issues. This is why Toyota et. al. are sticking with NiMH. The Li-ion battery suppliers have not mass produced batteries for the automotive market for any length of time and have no track record. GM would be smart to award contracts to a couple other suppliers, just in case as a CYA measure. Just my insider opinion. I could be wrong.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
#30 Kent. I am one of those morons that STILL says electric propulsion is more dependable and more maintenance free than ICE.
Do you remember the days when we first moved to fuel injection? There were quite a few trips to the garage when computers and oxygen sensors and such screwed up. Doesn’t happen as much. Give it a little time.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
You said it people !!
#44 omegaman66; keep reminding people that the Volt will in fact have the need to pull up next to a gasoline pump. I for one will likely need to perform this action more than most potential buyers as I do 106mi per day on my commute. I would be looking for an outlet on both ends of the commute. (which is why I think I would be a great test-case for reliability…you hear that GM?!)
#45 Texas; highlighting the naysayers that do not contribute value with their comments…you can provide alternate views and opinions without being narrow-minded … every mile driven on pure electric and not on gasoline is a step in the right direction. Then in 50 or 100 years my hope is that there are blogs just like this that are pushing for the Hydrogen/Air hybrids to be pushed into production!
June 6th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Let’s count the ways GM could come out a loser based on all these posts. Well, let’s not do that. GM will be producing hybrids using MiMH batteries for the next decade, maybe longer. They have to insure a battery supply. Even with the Volt using Li-Ion many other GM vehicles will be based on NiMH battery technology. These batteries will be cheaper to produce and will fit into trucks and SUV’s fine, thank you.
I don’t know if its a smart move or not, just that they may have to do it.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
This is kind of in the realm of EVs/batteries and gas.
ow finished off down almost 400 points, oil surged up $11 TODAY, to record high #139.12. GM closed the day down another .83 cents to a 33 year low of $16.22
June 6th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Above post… the “DOW finished off…” not the “ow finished off”
June 6th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Update on the CAW/GM talks from today, this is kind of ugly:
Ron Carlyle, a local CAW official who represents GM’s Oshawa car plant and attended the meeting with the company executives, said workers felt betrayed, “At the end of the day, they told us to go to hell,” Carlyle said.
“What I can guarantee, and I said this to General Motors about an hour ago on the highway, they want their building back and they’re not getting their building back.”
Buckley asked all union members to be at the blockade on Saturday morning, where he said the union would roll out “the next phase of our fight back.”
June 6th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Statik
No, you had it correct. OW! As in OUCH.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Our suppliers for gasoline and diesel just gave us a price increase of 20.5 cents for gasoline and 28.5 cents for diesel effective at 6:00 pm today. Now that is after an average of 10.5 and 12.5 yesterday at 6 pm. That is what we are facing in the oil market. These prices are coming from the distributors at fuel storage terminals. This is for gasoline and diesel made from crude oil that was purchased possibly 3 - 6 months ago at the then current price. It was a lot less than 139 + per barrel as is today.
Tell me we don’t need the Volt?
June 6th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Actually, “ow fininished off” by itself is pretty descriptive.
As for Kent, he’s not a naysayer in general, he’s just a little touchy about batteries. Ask him about EEStor ultracapacitors and you’ll see we’ll all look like naysayers instead.
#43 Gsned57:
The post in #42 said “cut CONTRACTS” not “cut CONTACTS”. I think he wants to see them “cut a deal” with both companies, not just one, same as you said.
Anyway, GM has kind of a serious image problem right now. And I don’t just mean in the green standpoint. In the business standpoint. If they can’t get their hybrid sales up for whatever reason, they are going to look really bad compared to Toyota which is selling it’s millionth Prius or whatever. That will be tricky to explain to the shareholders, regardless of how it might or might not impact the public perception of the company. No, they will do whatever it takes to prop up Cobasys in the short term so it doesn’t make any waves in their business plans.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Battery technology is evolving rapidly. What ever technology GM picks for the Volt needs to be thoughly vetted. The use of A123 batteries, since they came out in DeWalt power tools, by electric powered radio contro modelers, I have a lot of confidence in A123, but the form factor, cooling and charging is all new and there will be plenty of room for error. I expect to see battery technology coming out of universities in the next few years that will be two to ten times better that what we have now. Before the A123 cells, there was not a battery that could do the Volt job. Saying we need two suppliers may be wishful thinking, there may not be two qualified suppliers.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
I would not be surprised if GM did not end up with two suppliers. If both meet their specifications, why not? It sure beats having no supplier or one that is having trouble. The old adage about “all your eggs in one basket” may apply here. It may take two suppliers to build enough batteries to meet demand. Very likely will take more than two factories to meet demand after year 2014 or 2015.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Having two factories is not the is not the same as two suppliers. One supplier could have two factories (locations) or two suppliers could have two or more factory locations. However it comes out, GM will need a lot of batteries. One plant with four shifts seven days a week may not be able to meet demand. I will bet GM can build the Volt body and install all the components except the battery a good bit quicker than the supplier can build a battery.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
@ #43:
Blockading the GM factory isn’t going to make a company that is losing billions, suddenly decide to re-hire thousands of people. The auto market is dwindling and with that come cuts….the CAW needs to accept that and move forward, not whine and complain about the situation that GM didn’t create.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Whoops! My last post (#60) should have been @ #53, not #43.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I really can’t get into this. Just get the bleeping Volt on the street. I’ve got the money put away. Lyle has my e-mail address. Let’s GO!
June 6th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
noel park
Same for me. Let’s go GM………………….
June 6th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
59 N Riley: “I will bet GM can build the Volt body and install all the components except the battery a good bit quicker than the supplier can build a battery”…..
You may be right, but IF it really takes longer to build a battery than to assemble a Volt in high-volume manufacturing, GM is in VERY BIG trouble. I’ve had a walkthru of a huge GE battery factory & was amazed how few people were needed. There’s NO reason I can think of that the alternate layers of plates and separators making up a Li-Ion prismatic cell can’t be wrapped at high speed —so I’m convinced each cell could be “wound” in less than 30 seconds.
And each cell’s tabs, as well as all cell-pack interconnections & the by-pass circuitry on a carrier “motherboard” between cells should be weldable. In other words, most if not all cell-level & battery-level fabrication & assembly should be fully automated. In my view, the labor content of both cell and pack fabrication should therefore be minimal and the thru-put production time for a full-up 16kWh Volt battery should be no more than 15 minutes (excluding testing).
So if both of GM’s Volt battery manufacturers aren’t hard at work on fully-automated factories to produce these batteries I’d be shocked! (Pun ‘half intended’, to borrow a “Lutzism”.)
June 6th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
The Japanese are continuing to use NiMH batteries because they are a proven technology. These batteries are very tough and long lasting as proven by the Prius. About eight months ago, when I started reading Chevy-Volt.com, I was so excited by the idea of electric vehicles that I could not wait to buy one. Wanting to experience electric vehicles, and not having any available to buy, I decided to build an electric bike. It worked so well that I built another one for a friend. I have ridden these bikes, with NiMH batteries, almost 2,000 miles now. The batteries and motors have not slowed down at all. They are trouble free and a joy to ride. I am using a 400 watt, brushless, hub motor at 36 volts and I can get up to 50 miles per charge without peddling. Top speed is 20 mph. With the addition of a rack on the back and panniers, they make great “gas free”, vehicles for short errands and shopping. Federal law HR 727 states these vehicles are to be treated as bicycles in all 50 states. Meaning no requirements for registration, licensing , or insurance. You can ride in the bike lanes or on the sidewalk. The next electric bike, I plan to build, will be capable of 45/50 mph and will need to be registered as a motor bike/cycle. I still plan to buy a “Volt” but these are fun in the meantime….
June 6th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
#60 Dan
I completely agree with you that that cut….and further cuts are warranted. I point it out more from the angle of, ‘things GM can’t really afford to put up with right now’
I will note that in this (very rare situation) case, the CAW actually has the high ground and may have some legal high ground…but in legal battles everyone loses. I think both sides realize that.
June 6th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
With the problems GM has had recently with recalls on Cobasys batteries, they should aquire them with a law suit:)
June 6th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Maybe they need the batteries for the Yaris/Fit/Versa fighter Cobalt and Aveo mild hybrids Speedy suggested the other day. If so, so much the better.
June 6th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Dan 60, Statik #66
I agree. Why in the world with lean and mean companies and overcapacity in the auto industry, does GM even deal with unions? It does seem ludicrous that GM would have to have contracts with labor.
You can’t count on anything these days that’s the uncertainty we live with and everyone accepts it except unions.
June 6th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Hi Grizzly. Why does GM deal with unions? Apparently in some states (like Michigan) it’s a requirement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
June 6th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Paul-R #70
Understand, but there is no reason they can’t move factories to another state, like Toyota and Honda which only operate in right to work states.
This should have been done a long time ago.
June 7th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
nasaman #64
Thanks for the information about battery production. That would be really good if they could automate most if not all of the production. That was one of my worries and I had to “vent” it to the blog to see if someone knew more about it than I do. Maybe their is real hope they can deliver mass production of the “Volt like” vehicles.
June 7th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I agree with nasaman that battery production can be highly automated. “Can be” is not the same for Li-ion auto batteries as “has been done” however. Getting anything automated that involves physically big items requires careful planning, careful execution, some trials with some failures, and then ultimately something really good. Done too hastily you get batteries that leak (or worse). I am thinking “highly automated” maybe by gen2 of the Volt.
June 14th, 2008 at 1:42 am
Just release the Volt let us worry about the batteries,someone is going to modify it anyway for better range.