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GM and Toyota May be in Talks to Build Priuses Together and is Toyota Really Looking at E-REVs?
A fundamental theme observed in the inception and development of the Chevy Volt is the competition between General Motors and Toyota. GM vice chair Bob Lutz has admitted GM was wrong in not getting into hybrids at the time Toyota did with their Priuses and has promised not to make the same mistake twice.
Over the months there has been considerable banter between the two companies. One interesting facet has been Toyota’s arguments that the E-REV paradigm is not as efficient as the parallel hybrid paradigm (of the Prius). They have also declared lithium-ion as not being ready for prime-time, and only plan to have a limited test fleet of plug-ins (with Nickel) by the end of 2010.
Toyota for its part has sold over 1 million Priuses to date and sells 60% of them in the U.S. Considering the recent gas price hikes, these numbers will likely continue to climb precipitously. Toyota has exclusively been building Priuses in Japan, but now is apparently in talks to build some in the U.S.
GM and Toyota have a joint-venture assembly plant in California called New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI), and the Japanese newspaper Tokyo Shimbum has reported that GM and Toyota are in negotiations to produce the Prius there. Officially, Toyota reports that so far,”nothing has been decided about building the Prius at NUMMI,”
I have tried for a comment from GM, but so far, silence.
Further related news comes from a Wall Street Journal report in which it was stated “Toyota has said it plans to test the feasibility of an electric car with a range extender,”
I investigated this statement more closely through a conversion with the Wall Street Journal article’s author Nori Shirouzu. He referenced the source of this quote as Toyota’s press release from the Detroit Auto Show in January 08. They were simply referring to the aforementioned parallel Nickel-metal hydride plug-in prototypes. Thus, there remains no evidence that Toyota is exploring the series or E-REV design.
Nori told me he suspects that Toyota really is not interested in building plug-in cars, that they are only putting their feet in the water now just in case the Volt takes off and they have to react.
So the battle between Toyota and GM rages on, and perhaps it’s best to keep your enemies close.
109 Responses to “GM and Toyota May be in Talks to Build Priuses Together and is Toyota Really Looking at E-REVs?”
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:01 am
Great legwork on this story! You were able to go straight to the sources, and get the real skinny.
I am stunned that Toyota has no desire to build plug-in vehicles. Electricity is soooo much cheaper than gasoline, diesel or alcohol, and given the geo-political circumstance, Americans are HIGHLY motivated to switch.
This proves Toyota’s CEO Watanabe is VISIONLESS.
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:05 am
Well it looks like GM made the first mistake and now Toyota will make the second one.
Take Care
Arch
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:09 am
This move would help Toyota a lot because of the low value of the dollar. But I don’t think this would help GM at all. Instead it would hurt GM when the Volt is out.
I would tell Toyota to go shove it!!!
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:16 am
I just find it hard to believe that Toyota will sit on its hands and watch other companys produce plug-in hybrids and electric vehicles. They will quietly enter the game with a competitive product.
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:33 am
Spin,
They might be doing some R&D on the issue, but they aren’t going to offer anything until they see how Tesla, Fisker, Aptera and the Chevy Volt perform over the next couple years. Toyota is betting its future on a vehicle that took America 10 years to accept. How likely is it that Americans will stay with the Prius when real alternatives are available?
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:33 am
Off topic – -
I just found this, not sure if it’s been posted before. More spy photos of Volt and/or Flextreme. Check out that modified bow tie.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/opel-flextreme.html
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:59 am
I once owned a Geo Prizm that was produced in the California NUMMI plant – it was comparable to the Toyota Corolla and it was a reliable car.
However, I cannot see an advantage for GM to agree to letting the Prius be produced in the US.
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:22 am
I would welcome any such cooperation between the big two that will speed up electrification of Auto industry. It will benefit the consumers world over
#6mmcc
The same story what Lyle appears to be mentioning in this post is given in another connected link
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-extend-prius-production-to-california-build-version-for-gm.html
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:23 am
To avoid making the same mistake again, a large quantity of the the vehicle must actually be produced.
Competition is welcome. After all, the resistance comes from traditional vehicles, not other hybrids.
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:24 am
Japan is our close friend and we need each other more than most people are aware of. This is a good thing.
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:27 am
Additionally this places GM in the lead again due to the Volt and Japan seee this. So working together keeps Japan in the Game.
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:37 am
Toyota is a very secrative company and I bet they are feverously woriking on a car to compete with the Volt. Later, they’ll surprise the world and again the editors will say ” Toyota is so smart and we are so dumb”.
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:44 am
May 31st, 2008 at 10:24 am
Vincent
Japan is our close friend and we need each other more than most people are aware of. This is a good thing.
Yes, they are our close friends as long economically they get their way. They love to take credit for our inventions. Today, they are afraid of what will happen since the domestics are now wide awake.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:05 am
If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
A way-back-when, Toyota decided to build the Prius.
GM on the other hand decided to build the Hummer.
Of the 2 companies, which one has had to trim its workforce in order to stay competitive & turn a profit?
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:15 am
No #14. GM made the EV1. As a result the Prius was made. Then GM proverbially fell asleep at the switch.
Now they are WIDE awake and the world sees it. ust like when they said “they woke a sleeping Giant” when they attacked us. They did it again…and we will win again.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:21 am
First of all it’s a toyota story not a gm story. Second why would gm buy or make a prius like car went these “E Flex Drive System is better? Sound to me they woud like to have Gm’s Two Mode Hybrid System For there trucks.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:23 am
Interesting news. Long term I wonder if an actual merger could be in the works? ”Toyota Motors” or “General Toyota”? Or “GM” a division of “Toyota”?
On a site note… Lyle, I noticed you refer to the Prius not as simply a “hybrid” but as a “parallel hybrid” but refer to the Volt as simply a “E-REV”. If the Volt is not a series hybrid (or a hybrid at all) as GM now contends (even though that’s what they called their prototype range extended EV-1 10 years ago), why the need to quantify the Prius as a “parallel” design at all?
In any case, I still think the series hybrid (aka range extended battery electric vehicle) is the better design, until the day when plentiful “quick charging” stations are available that the range extender can be dropped all together leaving a non-hybrid battery electric vehicle to rule the roads.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:30 am
It’s been obvious since their first steps that Toyota wants the public to continue looking to plain hybrids (not even advanced
dual mode like GM uses) as the green machines. Problem is that the Prius uses way too much gasoline – in the US commuting scenario where each 100 Volts would use less than 10 gallons per day (whcih could all be ethanol), a similar fleet of 100 Prius is gulping down 70 gallons or more, nearly ten times more
than the Volt. That’s pretty unimpressive, no matter how you slice it, or how hard you argue (ala Honda) that the Prius is better “economically,” (and argument that gets weaker each time gas prices rise). One Volt can save more gasoline and
carbon emissions than 9 Toyota Prius cars.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:31 am
Nothing wrong with joint platforms/co-operative initiatives.
Right now we are on the precipice of a complete US meltdown, which threatens (will) spill over into the rest of the world…with airlines, banks then automakers leading the charge into obscurity. A little co-operation will go a long way. I think of the Toyota Matrix/rebade Vibe as a success story of their collaberation.
As for Toyota ‘not wanting to build plug-in cars.’ I think that is true in a all EV sense.
However, the Prius is currently set up to be able to switch to a 5KW EV with only 4 hours labor.
The next gen will have a greater base-EV capability and will also be built with factory initiated reverse engineering in mind to be able to accept electric as the primary drive state, with very little base changes or plant down time.
In other words the Prius can be equal/similar to the Volt in “driving functionality” at Toyota’s whim, if they want. I have a feeling we will see the EV/plug option in late 2010…but I think we are right to assume that Torota is letting GM take the lead/‘be the guinea pig’ on this ‘new world’
If GM kept to it’s original plan to built 100K a year and was bulding the infrastructure behind it to ramp production even higher…I think Toyota would be more serious about the whole thing. Right now they are looking at GM maybe pushing out a couple copies in 2010, then mayb 10K in 2011/2012, before making the decision to ramp up/move to the Euro platform in 2013/2014….just imo though.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:32 am
Lyle, for the record, you said: ” Toyota has exclusively been building Priuses in Japan, but now is apparently in talks to build some in the U.S.”
Toyota has also been manufacturing the Prius in China, but all Priuses sold in America are built in Japan.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:38 am
#17 Jeff
Long term I wonder if an actual merger could be in the works? ”Toyota Motors” or “General Toyota”? Or “GM” a division of “Toyota”?
No way there would ever be a merger. Toyota could buy GM right now with loose change in their headoffice sofas. Toyota’s market cap is north of 160 billion, Gm is around 9 billion.
Toyota might be interested in picking up some of the brands/models…but that would be at a bankruptcy sale. They would never take over the company, even for $1, because of the debt risk with the 180 billion dollars GM owes.
If they ever did for any reason, they certainly would not change their name at all…more than likely you could see it run as a ‘independant brand’ like Jaguar was under Ford.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:48 am
Of course, it is Toyota’s best interest to milk out their current hybrid system as long as possible. However they know that once Volt comes out, they have to respond. Volt is a superior system. I just hope that GM delivers it with sincerity. Memory of EV1 is still fresh to me.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:50 am
mmcc #6, Yuck. Those spy photos show a car that looks like every other car. It doesn’t stand out in a crowd at all.
Thanks for the link. I hope the Volt is much much prettier.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:54 am
Toyota has licensed their HSD tech to other comoanies to use for years. Everytine they “upgrade” the system, they sell the “old” tech to people like Honda. My hope is that the shoe will now be on the other foot. GM can license/sell their EREV-1 tech to Toyota, when they come out with EREV-2 tech.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:55 am
Spell check!
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:02 pm
At the Chicago auto show this year I spoke with an employee of Toyota (I believe she was an engineer but attractive enough to be a model) about the GM-Volt. We agreed that the batteries being tested for the Volt would probably allow the car to be viable in terms of performance. The question she had was about the mass production and cost of the battery. She believed that the Li-Ion battery does not lend itself to mass production. Toyota has recently anounced new battery production facilities for the coming decade. The large majority of these batteries will be NiMH with only a small number of Li-Ion. There obviously is a real difference of opinion concerning the cost of Li-Ion. While I’m rooting for GM, I cannot discount the judgement of Toyota’s engineers. I hope GM has a backup plan. Perhaps NiMH combined with Supercaps.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I agree with Statik at #19. if we can have a Matrix/Vibe, why not a Prius/????. 100K Volts will be nowhere near enough to satisfy the high mileage car market in the 2011/2012 time frame. It would give GM dealerships something else to sell, at a lower price point, which they will desperately need.
Man, if you can sell Daewoos you can sell Toyotas.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:08 pm
“So the battle between Toyota and GM rages on…” – Lyle
It’s battle? If so, a pretty lopsided one. Toyota has fired a half million Priuses, GM has taken damage below the waterline and is firing back with hot air.
The biggest threat to the Volt is probably GM’s financial condition and the forecast for near-term improvement is not good, improved labor costs notwithstanding.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Lets see: Toyota plans to sell Plug-in Prius to fleets in 2010. The 2009 will have a 2.6 KWH battery pack and be able to go about 7 miles in all electric mode. If the 2010 Prius uses a lithium battery, its capacity would easily be 5 to 7 KWH and have a AER of about 20 miles. So it is not too much of a leap to say Toyota might offer a Plug-in Prius to the public in 2011 with an AER near 20 miles for well under $30,000. Food for thought
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:31 pm
The new battery tech makes it possible and it was all invented in the US. That is the big reason Toyota is bad mouthing the concept.
I bet that electric power costs a lot more in Japan and the pay off in charging off the grid vs running a generator with gas is not there. For us there is an obvious advantage, so far Toyota and Honda say they don’t see it.
Toyota may not sell it, but they are getting free research with the folks that are buying the A123 range extenders for the Prius. They get to sell the vehicle for $25k and let the $10k extender pack be an option that is paid for as a separate item.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:32 pm
GM is not going to let Toyota or anybody else copy these “E Flex Dive System”. Gm has ”BAS Plus System” and “Two Mode Plug in Hybrid”. They don’t need or want toyota’s hybrid system, it’s these other way around toyota want’s a better system then there own.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:40 pm
No. 15
(No #14. GM made the EV1. As a result the Prius was made. Then GM proverbially fell asleep at the switch.)
To be accurate here. GM made, in fits and starts, the EV1. Toyota made the RAV4 Electric (there’s still about 400 on the roads, here’s a recent auction for one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=230254014549)
The Clinton Administration spent a large amount of money in partnership with the American automakers who made prototype hybrid vehicles, good ones too – the idea being that the US manufacturers could make production vehicles with the technology. The US manufacturers spent the research money and then ignored the technology. The Japanese got so nervous about this, in response they created their own hybrid programs, but they produced actual vehicles and that is where the Prius and Insight came from.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:41 pm
What is the correct plural form for Prius: ‘Prii’ or ‘Priuses’?
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:47 pm
#29 Van:
Check out the brilliant link posted by Arch at #44 on the thread below on the buyout of 19,000 workers. It speaks directly to the issue of Toyota and LI batteries.
It is extremely thought provoking, to say the least.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:49 pm
There went another one into moderation, this time with no hint of the “w-word”. What’s up? Don’t tell me Mr. W. got the range? Wait a sceond, does that explain it?
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Noel Park wrote at #27: “…if we can have a Matrix/Vibe, why not a Prius/????”.
I have a suggestion: Matrix/Vibe and,
Prius/Shock
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May 31st, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I dont think either company honestly wants the other’s system.
GM is going it’s own way with a very straight forward, easily interchangeable platform. They are looking at multiple unique applications for it, hence the design.
Toyota already has a viable platform that is simple to add almost any amount of EV capacity/range to in mere hours…which they can produce and sell at around 25K.
Two different directions…but alot of logic to either system. I don’t really think either is a loser. There is more than enough room in this segment…as a matter of fact it’s like a wide open prairie at the moment.
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May 31st, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Statik, in #19 you stated “Prius can be equal/similar to the Volt in “driving functionality” at Toyota’s whim, if they want.”
From an engineering perspective, I feel that’s completely not true. Only an EREV can provide the needed combination of power, efficiency, low cost, and range. To create a similar driving functionality, the Prius would need a much higher performance electric motor and a much higher capacity battery system. That would drive the price way up … probably higher than the Volt due to the complex transmission and control systems.
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May 31st, 2008 at 1:21 pm
The volt will be successful I firmly believe that.
I still believe they can sell over 500,000 in the first year easily!
Easily!
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May 31st, 2008 at 1:57 pm
GK and Toyota are not good together. Let’s keep the competition brewing.
OK, I’m a Volt fan but I can’t help exploring for alternatives given the price fiasco. I came across news that Miles Automotive is releasing a 4 door Li-ion all electric that is advertised to travel over 100 miles per charge. The car also travels at “freeway speed” and comes with the standard features.
I test drove one of their NEV’s (best in that category IMHO) yesterday. The representative said the aforementioned car will be available December 2009 in the range of $34,000 – $40,000 depending upon option choices.
Does this sound like the official beginning of the shift???
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May 31st, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Sorry! I obviously meant GM not GK
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May 31st, 2008 at 2:14 pm
#40 Jason:
GM and Toyota have been jointly producing cars at the NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc.?) plant in Fremont California for what, at least 20 years? If anyone has a more accurate number on how long, please weigh in.
Better that than importing hybrids from Japan, IMHO.
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May 31st, 2008 at 2:31 pm
mmcc #6
That is not the chevy brand, but a GM brand in Europe called Opel. It is not a modified bow tie.
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May 31st, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I think it will be interesting comparing the next Prius with the volt. With the 40K price I think it would have been better to make a small electric commuter care just to get the Lithium batteries mass produced. As prices come down you could add more batteries to increase range and the add larger cars over the next decade. Adding a gas engine with all the complexity as dead weight maybe is not so great after all. I have never heard how large the engine will be. If it is the size of a push mower then ok.
Now the Prius will have the two working together plus the Prius 3 will be affordable. I guess they will eventually add lithium once the other guys have gotten the price down. More intriguing to me is the Honda smaller hybrid and the CRX sport hybrid.
Can someone explain the patent issue with NiMH and if Toyata has an exclusive and if that is why the other guys are going with Lithium?
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May 31st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Toyota isn’t a pure parallel hybrid. The synergy drive is serial at low power and switches to parallel at higher power. If they increase the battery and the motor size that will up the power it can handle in serial. It can be whichever is more efficient for the current conditions. Honda is true parallel.
Most people should know the difference by now.
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May 31st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Can a prius run all electric at speeds above 50 miles per hour? I am not talking about the current models but for quicky upgrades at the plant that have been mentioned in this thread.
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May 31st, 2008 at 3:54 pm
There are companies converting old cars to all electric. These cars and trucks are not going to be as efficient or as well designed (due to the fact that they are conversions) as the volt or teslas offering yet people still want these cars. I am continuely amazed that even with all the clamoring for these cars that they car manufactures don’t believe their is a demand.
It is as if they think that every single person must want all electric before they are viable. Does everyone want a truck or a hummer or a deisel? NO! Yet they still realize there is a demand there and they provide for it. How can they be so shortsighted and not see the demand for a volt like vehicle.
The crazy/sad part is the people making those decisions make more money than you or I. Apparently I would make a much better CEO for Toyota than any they have.
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May 31st, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Statik,
Where do you come up with GMs debt figure, I was just looking over information at Yahoo financials which lists GMs total current total debt at 44.02 Billion rather than 180.
Are the numbers posted there not correct?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=gm
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May 31st, 2008 at 4:12 pm
The Prius is a pretty homely-looking vehicle. If GM staff can take a Prius and put GM-esque styling on it (since most everything that they have released in the past two years is beautiful to my eyes), I think that would be a good thing.
Sort of like the new Matrix versus Vibe. The Matrix just looks weird and reminds me of something that an alien would drive. The Vibe’s styling is somehow more restrained yet still cool-looking.
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May 31st, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Well I just read that Gm will have “EV2″ with these “E Flex Plug Drive System “, Litium Batteries as well, out in 2009. You Going to be able Lease it for Five years.
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May 31st, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Omegaman66 #44,
No the current Prius design tops out at about 30 MPH in EV only mode, but the 2009 Prius will have a top speed of 60+ in EV only mode. So the quicky conversion kits, like the Hymotion L5, will provide a PHEV for about $37,000 in 2009 with an AER of about 20 miles.
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May 31st, 2008 at 4:53 pm
>> No the current Prius design tops out at about 30 MPH in EV only mode
It looks like you got Two-Mode mixed up with HSD. Makes you wonder how easily incorrect information is spread about Volt, eh?
42 MPH is the current electric-only threshold for Prius.
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May 31st, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Two prideful auto giants duking it out for the American consumer. I don’t doubt that GM regrets not making a Prius styled hybrid for the North American market, but would many buy a GM product when they can buy the Prius.
Years ago GM had a good chance to get into the small car market in a big way but pretty much ceded this market to the Japanese.
I remember the Japanese loading their vehicles with everything for a reasonable sticker price but the big three made extras as very expensive options. Their cars didn’t even come with radios.
Poor corporate decision making, but at last they’re trying to give consumers something that they want and need. Next years Prius could be rated at 94 mpg and may look even more unusual because of air resistance concerns.
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May 31st, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Noel Park
New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc.(NUMMI) is the pioneering joint venture of General Motors Corporation and Toyota Motor Corporation. Established in Fremont, California, in 1984
This is from the Nummi website. Check it out if you want more info.
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May 31st, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Toyota plays their cards so close to the chest, it’s anyone’s guess when they will deliver the next big thing.
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May 31st, 2008 at 6:05 pm
#35 Noel Park
This is the reason I don’t think GM and Toyota will work together. GM all of a sudden is taking a longer view of the whole process than Toyota. That seems strange to me. The batteries
Toyota plans to use may be hard to come by in about 4 or 5 years. So far I have not found anything like that for the batteries that GM plans to use. We shall see. BTW my post in the area below has been moved to #48.
Take Care
Arch
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May 31st, 2008 at 7:15 pm
The Prius is all about efficiency. Their plug-in versions slated for 2010 are still talking about “miles per gallon”. This is old school mentality.
The Volt is about not using gasoline. If you always drive less than 40 miles per day, your Volt mileage will approach infinity. This is a paradigm shift.
From what I’ve seen, American companies tend to lead innovation into new technologies. Japanese companies tend to innovate incrementally once the technology has been established. For example, the Prius was Toyota’s answer to the America’s “Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles”, and prototype cars like the GM Precept.
So I’m not surprised that Toyota would dismiss any new technology that would cause a complete paradigm shift. They will wait until the paradigm shift starts to occur, and then compete aggressively once it does.
The first company to market with a new technology doesn’t always dominate. For example, who made the first MP3 player with a small hard drive? That would be Creative’s Nomad Jukebox. They paved the way, but now the Apple iPod dominates.
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May 31st, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Noel #27
Why would GM want to dampen the demand for future Volt sales by selling a Prius knock-off? They’ve got too much invested in E-flex and they plan to proliferate it throughout their product line.
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May 31st, 2008 at 7:22 pm
I am not as concerned about what Toyota will or will not do as I am about what GM will or will not do. Toyota is going to do what they think is in their best interest. Sometimes it seems as if GM decides to do the exact opposite. They have shot themselves in the foot so many times that I think this time if the screw-up, the gun will be pointing at their head instead at their foot. It is do or die now for GM. If the screw-up again, they will pass on to the dust bin of history. They will get purchased by a Japanese, South Korean or Chinese company. That would certainly be a shame and the worst possible situation for America. Being purchased by a Japanese company would be the least problem of the three with the Chinese as being totally against our self interest and national defense.
GO GM, GO VOLT.
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May 31st, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Grizzly #53
Sales. Simple answer. Sales means dollars in the bank. The Volt can not ramp up fast enough to satisfy demand. GM should rebadge the Prius and market it to make money. As the Volt comes into full production it will sell itself to the world’s auto owners. But sales mean money to pay bills and stay in business.
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May 31st, 2008 at 7:51 pm
I still don’t understand some fundatmentals about the Chevy Volt’s operation. The first 40 miles or so is battery, but is the 40 miles with air conditioning, wipers, lights and stereo running ?
Does the 3 cylinder engine charge the battery back up to 80% after it hits 30% on longer trips so that the battery would automatically cut back in at 80 % ?
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:08 pm
It is quite clear why Toyota wants to partner-up with GM.
Phase 1 – Toyota wants to be onsite during the Volt’s integration phase, so they can copy all the specifications for the Volt. They also need to be on the inside, to gather intel on GM’s security.
Phase 2 – Have a highly skilled and trained ninja strike force infiltrate GM and sabotage the lithium-ion batteries. When the test vehicles for the final production line begin to catch fire and explode during testing, it will look like a battery defect. Just the way they planned it.
Phase 3 – When GM goes into bankruptcy, Toyota begins production of a similar automobile, named the Toyota Amp. After a tip of the hat to GM for its pioneering research, Toyota will announce they “solved” the battery problem, patent pending of course.
Toyota will continue to sell the Prius until they consider the Toyota ”Amp” to be ready, with no annoying competition from GM. They might even pick up an old GM plant or two, after GM ceases to legally exist, to make even more Prius / Amp cars.
Well, it COULD happen.
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I doubt Toyota wants GM’s tech.
I think the real reason to build Prius’ in CA is to offset the decline of the USD against the Yen. Otherwise you will have the situation of the Volt being built and sold in US Dollars and the Prius at a disadvantage being built in Yen and sold in US Dollars.
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Seriously, could we have an answer for #56 Ed M, please ? He raises two valid unanswered questions, and I have read the FAQ and all the posts – no answers there.
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Sorry, Ed M is #61.
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:18 pm
# 59 Ed M
The 40 mile, end of life, range is WITHOUT accessories on.
The generator maintains the battery about 30% SOC. The battery is designed to only be recharged to 80% when plugged in.
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Oops Ed M now at 61. Comments must be coming out of moderation, hehehe.
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
I’ve been away too long.
I’ll start with the electric limitation questions on the Prius, which is first mentioned in #46 and a few times later on. It is currently 35 miles per hour top out (unless moded).
The next gen ‘2009′ not to be confused with the ‘facelift ’09s’ has greater EV capacity and delivering and will top out at 65 MPH.
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:46 pm
#48 pstoller78
What your getting there is the MRQ (most recent quarter) cliff notes on GM…kind of a overview, the only numbers expressed as such are their short term payables (around 6 billion) and long term debts (around 38). What you don’t get is accounts in arrears/payable (over 64 billion…which is the elephant in the room) and some long term paper/committments etc.
If you check the same site, and hit up the corporate balance sheet you see it represent the indebtness as a whole (over 180 billion) :
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=GM
Side note on your link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=gm
Check the number of shares short — 566 million shares outstanding, 100 million shares short — 17%
(FYI Toyota has 103 million shares, less than 1% short)
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May 31st, 2008 at 8:48 pm
One last thing….what to watch for at the meeting is cutting or hinting at cutting the dividend.
The yield is almost a whopping 6%. Clearly GM can’t continue to pay it, (500mil+/year), but it is propping up the stock…big time.
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May 31st, 2008 at 9:39 pm
The Prius has a boon to Toyota, an enabler for hybrids as well as EV’s, and HSD was a fantastic inovation. Everyone wishing for the transition to EV’s should be greatful for HSD’s role in helping to bring this change about. This does not, however, make the current generation or any close iteration of HSD an EV drivetrain. Until the electric drivetrain is fully capable of powering the vehicle by itself, the car is an ICE with an eletric assist. Also, to have any real additional value as an EV beyond what the current HSD vehicles offer it will require a plug. So, to do this every single electric drivetrain component will need to change dramatically plus other components will need to be added. The battery, charger, the power electronics, the motor, the cabling, the HSD, etc. Who cares if the Prius can make it to 30, 35, 40, or 60mph on electric alone if it takes 30 seconds to get there without AC and all of the energy ultimately comes from the ICE and gas? If 60mph comes with ab EV drivetrain and plug then they will have “something”, otherwise it will be only marginally better than today’s Prius.
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:20 pm
#60 N Riley
I disagree. The volt is head and shoulders above the Prius. What it will be able to deliver will make the Prius look sad. GM should stay as far away from it as possible. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
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May 31st, 2008 at 10:21 pm
We’ve heard a lot of conflicting information from Mr. Watanabe regarding Li batteries and E-REV drive systems. He says one thing then, a few months later, says something else that contradicts himself.
It’s obvious …
1. You’ll see a plug in Prius (V 3.0) with a short NiMH AER.
2. Then, a plug in Prius using a Li Ion battery (V3.1) and a longer AER.
3. Finally, a (V 4.0) Prius with an Li Ion E-REV drive system.
He’s slowly testing the waters before jumping into the E-REV game…
Why is he doing this ? The whole dealio boils down to Li Ion battery costs. Nothing more, nothing less.
He knows Li Ion battery KWH costs will be much less in 2015 than they will be in 2011.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:04 pm
I filled my tank with Middle-East Oil Baron gas today, something I always hate to do. The price - $62.00 for a mid-sized Buick Regal. Correct bloggers, most of us here will buy the Volt even if it looks like a box with 4 wheels. I’m a believer; this will be the “Car that saved GM”. I’m already investing in Electric Utilities. Guess what other money is going into American electric utilities – the soverign funds of the Middle-East are pouring money into utilities. I hope they don’t interfere with a double grip monopoly, holding oil and electric.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:52 pm
N Riley #60
“Sales. Simple answer. ”
*** *** **** ****
Unfortunately that answer has been just too convenient over at least the past two+ decades. That’s why GM is where they are today, or do you think it’s because all their valiant efforts toward advanced product engineering/development failed??
Time to put on the thinking cap
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Our government and we the people should be concerned where the mid-east oil producers and Venezuela is investing in this country. As far as I am concerned, they should not be allowed to invest in this country. We do not need to wake up one morning and find they control our electrical supply and our oil supply at the same time.
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Grizzly #74
I agree GM has done a bad job until the last few years which show promise if not actual advancement in quality, etc. The new Malibu is only one example of improvement.
The suggestion that GM should sell the rebadged Prius is because it would give them a good quality car with very good mileage figures and one that is accepted already as a “green” car. That would make money for GM. That is why is said sales was the simple reason to rebadge the Prius. It would make money for GM now as the Volt builds momentum. It would help GM make money and be viewed as a “green” company at the same time.
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:00 am
Should be: That is why I said sales was the simple reason…….
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:12 am
I stopped buying Chevrolet cars and trucks in the early 90’s because of quality. Quality in both fit and finish as well as durability. I could no longer trust GM with my hard earned dollars. I started buying Honda cars and Nissan trucks. Every time I wanted to buy a new car or truck I always started off looking at GM and Ford. Sometimes I would look at Chrylser, but not every time. I would end up at a Honda dealer for the car after looking at Toyota and at a Nissan dealer after looking at Toyota for trucks. I liked the Toyota trucks, but they were usually priced too high with all the “add-on packages” the dealers ordered. Honda just was and still is a better car manufacturer than Toyota even if the Camry is America’s best selling sedan. Just because more people buy it does not make it the best car.
I want to come home to Chevrolet. I want the Volt to be successful. I want it to happen much sooner than it sounds like most of the people on these post believe it will happen. Some are saying it will be 2012 before adequate Volts are made for it to be easy for the “average” Joe to find and afford one. I don’t want it to be that long. I want to get one ASAP.
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:14 am
VERY bad idea to RE-BADGE your competitor’s products in a short run effort to sustain yourself, when those very products are in anyone’s perception competitors to your own long term business plan/model. The key term here is “long term”, something that the publicly held GM hasn’t understood for decades.
Sorry, but even despite the 80’s and 90’s, I really think that GM is smarter than that.
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:17 am
You may be correct. I too hope GM is smarter today than they have appeared in the past. It very important to us all that they prove it.
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:22 am
Time will tell if GM and Toyota do this or other “deals”. I suspect Toyota would have more interest in GM rebadging the Prius than GM. I would expect they are looking for a production facility they could get up to speed quickly making Priuses for the American market. The joint facility would seem to fit. Like I said earlier, I expect Toyota to do what is in their best interest above all else.
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:25 am
Boy! I just looked at the date and time at the top of my last post. It is June already. Only 31 months to wait for the Volt. Man, time sure is flying. It will be here before we know it. Where is the line forming? Got to get my bed roll and water bottles.
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:27 am
I hope that when Lutz said we should see the Volt by 2010 he meant it would be ready in the first quarter of 2010 and not the last quarter.
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June 1st, 2008 at 12:29 am
Well, it is almost 12:30 a.m. in the morning here. I guess you guys are asleep. See ya’ll later.
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June 1st, 2008 at 5:59 am
The only hard date ever mentioned by GM has been late 2010.
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June 1st, 2008 at 9:44 am
Toyota saying that E-REV is not available on the Prius is akin to fog lights not being available on the Prius. Currently, only the aftermarket industry and nonprofit organizations are supplying the E-REV option for the Prius.
If the VOLT and/or Hymotion (and other aftermarket Prius E-REV companies/organizations) are successful in creating a large market for E-REV, Toyota will have years of internal and external experience with E-REV…including “on the road with a end user” experience before producing the 1st saleable vehicle.
Then adding E-REV will be like adding fog lights to the Prius for Toyota…no big deal which certainly does not require a “blank check” launch of a new vehicle.
Remember guys…this is business…not the US government winning the space race to the moon.
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June 1st, 2008 at 10:05 am
Dear friends in the Chevy Volt, why argue about the Volt launch date? Our big concern, whether the Volt would be built at all, has been answered by the Volt’s high priest, Bob (Hi Bob !)
The Volt will be ready when it is ready – not before. Nothing we say or do will change the Volt’s initial launch date. I realize, as the song says, “The waiting is the hardest part”. I feel your pain – 3 times a week at the pump, at $60.00 each time (honda odyssey). I eagerly await the day when I will never have to send my money to OPEC ever again.
I want to thank high priest Bob, and the thousands of unsung heros on the GM Volt team, for all their hard work in making our dream of an OPEC-free life a reality. Bob, whenever the Volt is ready, is OK by me. I know you and your team are doing the best that you can. The hopes and dreams of an OPEC-enslaved nation ride with you.
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June 1st, 2008 at 10:45 am
omegaman66 #86
Some articles use the words “by 2010″ spoken by Wagoner himself. Unless he was mis-quoted. But, the press doesn’t usually do that, do they? That could mean an early 2010 release of the 10k vehicles with a more general release for the fall to early winter for the rest of us. Who knows?
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June 1st, 2008 at 10:51 am
Terry K #88
I want to echo your thanks to GM, but add the thought that I believe GM is paying close attention to what is said on these posts and to others. They see the demand building and their test of the Volt power train is progressing better and faster than they anticipated. These points may be pushing GM (plus competition breathing down their necks) to finish and release the Volt and Flextreme by early 2010 insteand of late 2010. I think it is very possible we will see it much sooner than expected. But you are correct. It will be released when GM says it is ready to be released and not a minute before.
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June 1st, 2008 at 11:25 am
Jeff@87
I don’t understand your comparison of EREV to fog lights. This isn’t a minor “add-on”, it’s the whole foundation of the vehicle. Cars can run without fog lights, but not the propulsion system, so shifiting a vehicle from parallel to series hybrid is a big deal.
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June 1st, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Tag #91
And if the HW engineering for E-Rev isn’t the biggest hurdle, as we now know the SW part may be. Quite complex.
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June 1st, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Grizzly@92
Amen! If anything software tough to troubleshoot. At least with hardware you can physically manipulate the offending part. That sounds dirtier than I meant it (g)
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June 1st, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Grizzly #92
Yes, the software will be a big chore to accomplish. But, you have a finite number of sensors and each of them tells you something. It is a process of programming all the conditions for each sensor and having a controlling program that receives the input and makes decisions. There are many choices, but each choice or condition dictates an action. The controlling program must act as it is programmed, but not allow one or more inputs to cause a situation that may do harm to the vehicle or its occupants. As a software designer, like engineering, nothing is beyond successful completion. It will take time, talent and much testing. They have everything they need to test each sensor and the complete set-up in much less time than it takes Microsoft to serve up a new operating system. With Microsoft the PC user becomes the “sensor” and you know how well we act in ways that can be calculated. GM’s Volt sensor are a give quantity. They can do this job. Where they do not do the best job, that is where the software update process comes into play.
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June 1st, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Should have been: GM’s Volt sensors are a given quantity.
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June 1st, 2008 at 6:47 pm
@N. Riley 94
I shouldn’t even joke about it, but it’d give new meaning to the phrase “Blue screen of Death”
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June 1st, 2008 at 8:20 pm
NiMH large format battery Patents are owned by an oil company: Chevron/Texaco who are sitting on it. The patent was used to sue Toyota and Panasonic (they made the batteries for the Toyota RAV-4 EV) $30,000,000.00. The reason Toyota wont make an EV is because of the patent which runs out in 2014. Bummer. The Toyota RAV-4EV was quite a vehicle 120 miles on a charge and with incentives sold for $30,000.00. Used ones now sell for much more than that because they are no longer available. Where is Congress and the worst President ever Dubya Bush when an American company is sitting on Technology which today could take us off oil. TED
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June 2nd, 2008 at 3:35 am
I don’t have any inside info on NUMMI but the plant is in the area, here (I drive past it occasionally
, I still drive my 1987 FX16 which was made there and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. OK, I didn’t actually stay at a Holiday Inn Express. 
I remember reading in the local paper a few years ago that GM sold out its interest (or was going to? or reduced it?) but I can’t find anything on the web about that. In any case, Toyota definitely calls the shots for the plant, now. And rumor has it they’re not entirely happy about the costs there, it being their only UAW plant, and all:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nummi-rip-toyota-considers-dumping-uaw-plant/
A more local reference which might actually get some response back from NUMMI:
http://www.ibabuzz.com/tricitybeat/2008/03/30/nummi-news/
I remember a few years back, NUMMI was building the Matrix and Vibe vehicles and earned the distinction of being the only N.American auto plant shipping cars BACK to Japan (the right hand drive Toyota “Voltz” which is a derivative of the Pontiac Vibe which is a derivative of the Toyota Matrix) which was considered a BIG deal at the time because generally the Japanese won’t buy cars manufactured in the US due to quality concerns.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2002_June_3/ai_86656127
I think that honor, however has moved as they moved the matrix production to Canada.
Anyway, the local papers says that NUMMI said they haven’t heard anything official about Toyota wanting to build the Prius there:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/30/BUOL110Q9E.DTL&type=printable
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June 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 am
Nice article Lyle… TED
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June 2nd, 2008 at 7:40 am
It strikes me as likely that, if GM and Toyota are talking about anything, they are talking about Toyota buying GM’s share of NUMMI.
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June 2nd, 2008 at 9:23 am
I think people are reading too much into this. It is likely that the only reason Toyota wants to build the Prius at Nummi is because of the sinking value of the dollar against the yen. They may also not have enough capacity at the Japanese plant to meet current and anticipated demand as gas prices rise. I don’t think GM is or should consider a rebagded Prius as a ‘hole filler’ until the Volt arrives. It would just be one more model they have to advertise and build awareness of, and by the time the public figured out what it was the Volt would be here. I think it would also send the message that GM can’t build a competitive hybrid of their own. I’m sure Toyota would be happy to sell them rebadged version to increase volume!
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June 2nd, 2008 at 9:24 am
Ted in Fort Myers
You want George W to authorize or be a part of stealing a legal patented process from a company. I guess when you don’t like a President’s policies its ok if they do something illegal if you think it is right. Give the man a break, everyone. We need to follow the law and see the Li-Ion batteries to full production. They are a much better solution for now. When the patent runs out and it is legal to produce large NiMH batteries, I am sure several companies will do so.
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June 2nd, 2008 at 1:08 pm
#60 N Riley:
Well you beat me to it there. I totally agree.
#80 Grizzly:
Ordinarily, I would tend to agree with you about “re-badged” products, although they seem to get away with the Vibe pretty well. But desperate times call for desperate measures. The only thing worse that selling “re-badged” products is to have nothing that people want to buy and closing the doors.
100,000 Volts a year alone are not going to be enough to save GM.
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June 2nd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
For those of you who think that Toyota will make a mistake that not working on plug in. The following is ussually true: the guy who talks less is usually the guy will do more. I guess you know what I mean.
My 2 cents
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June 2nd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Noel #103
While I would agree in some instances, in this one I don’t. GM has it’s own hybrids and I just don’t believe they would ever sell a product that would pull the table cloth right out from under their own ramp-up of E-rev vehicles. I believe that even after the Gm-Volt waiting list has been satisfied, there will be a long waiting list for E-rev vehicles.
Instead of re-badging the Prius, GM should look to re-platform the Opel Corsa, a pure ICE vehicle that gets 58mpg highway, for sale here in the US as a Chevy. This vehicle outperforms the Smart car in every way including space. This would make much more sense and would leverage their own economies of scale. The money would stay with GM and it’s own development. The difference would be that there may very well be economy conscious people who would never consider a Hybrid or RE-BEV, and GM global has the product.
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June 3rd, 2008 at 9:02 am
A wise president who had the interesy of the nation at heart could indeed make a patriotic appeal to a patent-clenching, selfish company.
It is hardly the express role of the President of the U.S.A. to set the price of steel, yet JFK appealed to steel companies to lower their prices for the good of the nation. “jawboning” “using his Bully pulpit”
I can’t say I understand the Cobasys/Chevron versus Panasonic/Toyota situation as well as I would like to…I’m quite willing to entertain the possibility that it is as TED describes it. If so, I guess the prize for Chevron was the sale of lots and lots of gasoline that was burned inefficiently. and not so many batteries.
What if Whale Oil ‘R’ Us had patented the tungsten light bulb?
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June 3rd, 2008 at 9:18 am
Interesting discussion folks but it has missed a very major point (and if you’re a marketing student instead of an engineer you may better appreciate this).
Prius has been out for 10 years and is quite popular as the poster-child-car of the better-fuel-efficiency / lower emissions/ alternative fuel movement (i.e. green cars). Whatever you think of Toyota, it really is immaterial to the argument. They and Honda led the pack in taking on considerable risk to market hybrid vehicles to a very fickle American consumer market. They are successful by any standard – but especially in name recognitiion and acceptance.
I too would love to see Chevy Volts on the road, but at this point it is NOT a better car than the Prius because it does not exist (as far as the consumer is concerned)! The public needs a fuel efficient car *today* as gasoline prices climb over $4.00 a gallon. The Volt is still a “vapor” car; the Hybrids have been available for years.
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June 4th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Everyone is forgetting a key aspect of GM building Prius’ for Toyota under contract.
“Workforce Labor negotiations with unions.”
You see, Unions hate losing workers, but the fact is GM needs to shut-down. So Unions will dig in harder and cost GM more. But if GM can say, “We’ve arranged to have xx,xxx number of workers build Prius’ under contract at such and such factory. They’ll have to relocate, etc.
But this can be a major bargaining tool for GM in union negotiations. While maintaining a trained workforce which you’d otherwise have to let go, or even buy-off.
***
I could pay every worker $11,000 lay-off bonus. Or have them build Prius’ for Toyota.
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June 26th, 2008 at 9:45 am
In July 2007 a Democratic Presidential Candidate [who was banned from the debates because of his Top Ten List] invented the national contest for better electric rechargable car batteries at http://www.franklynch.org/plug_in_cars.htm
that John McCain recently announced as though he thought of it.
Obama is so stupid that he failed to make fun of McCain for beings so lacking in ideas that he has to steal ideas from Democrats, and Obama is even dumber for failing to exploit the ideas of his fellow Democrats.
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