Below is a discussion I just had with Micky Bly who is GM’s director of hybrid vehicle integration. He is responsible for putting all the parts of the Volt together to produce a smooth and consistent driving experience.
Now that Bob Lutz has said the battery is no longer the issue, what are the issues of control in the Volt program that you haven’t resolved yet?
There are a lot of issues still left to work out on integration and controls issues. The areas are the charger, how we’re going to hook up to the grid, how we’re going to control that, when we’re going to charge, how do we charge, what do we tell the driver when were charging. Those are all significant challenges from a controls point of view.
Other areas are on the battery cooling and heating to make sure we clearly take care of the very large battery which requires a lot of cooling and heating capacity. So that’s an area that we’re going to spend a significant amount of time on. The brakes integration, even though we already have a lot of experience in regen braking, now we’ve got to roll that in from a controls execution.
Other areas that are clearly a challenge for us would be the transition from an EV running vehicle to a charge-sustaining one to make sure we make that as smooth and seamless as the driver would expect it to be, and the behavior of that. These are the big ticket areas but the details is where all of this really gets down to. Bob Lutz’ comment was “reams and reams of software (are needed),” and he’s not kidding. It literally is a couple of hundred engineers on my team and powertrain’s team working on controls and software and calibration work to get this vehicle going.
Do you see any challenge at this point that will be very difficult or is it just putting together the tough pieces that already exist?
As an engineer, nothing is an obstacle we can’t overcome with the right talent and the right amount of time. So we’ll get through every one of these issues. But as I tell a lot of the leadership, Wagoner and Lutz, in reviews, I can do 99.9% of the things right, but it’s the 0.1% of the things I didn’t get right that will still cause the customer a concern, a problem, a warranty issue. So I’ve got to put as much energy and focus on that 0.1% as I do on the other 99.9 and get them all right. I don’t have the luxury of giving a ‘mulligan’ to the customer.
They all have their own challenges. Some are easy, some are regulatory, crash and safety, first responders, regulatory from the tailpipe and from a fuel economy certification, on-board diagnostics (OBD). That’s a huge thing you’ve got to get just right. We’re adding five to six hundred new diagnostics on this vehicle just becasue its a range extending EV. All of those things have to be flawless so we meet the governmental requirements in California and the northeast states.
I’m telling you the job’s big becasue it is. But, there is nothing in front of us that we can’t get around or over though.
Bob Lutz said GM might be considering a pure EV version of the Volt to be sold in California, any comments on that?
I will let Bob comment on future product plans. I clearly know my space on that one.
How many miles has the first early developmental prototype vehicle run?
I can tell you that were running two shifts of engineering support on this around the clock. Typically we run engineering one shift, and technicians two or three, but we’ve got so much work we’re doing on this. The vehicle will not stop. It’s going to be running around the clock. And as much time and effort as we can put into it we will.
May 28th, 2008 (9:09 pm)Well sounds like a lot of bravado to me. Hope they are doing well.
Take Care
Arch
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May 28th, 2008 (9:24 pm)A Pure BEV possible? Response… Such a fundamental question deserves a none answer.
How many miles has the prototype gone? Response… We are running engineers two shifts.
This kind of reminds me why american corporations have gone from being the most respected to just about the least respected in the world. I hope and pray that the Volt will be built right at a reasonable price, but I sometimes wonder if GM can keep the the MBAs and the accountants at bay long enough for the engineers to build the car.
I just want to buy a car that doesn’t rely on foreign oil, give me an electric car that runs on american electricity, either from nuclear, wind, solar or even coal, but let it be an energy that is grown here at home.
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May 28th, 2008 (9:46 pm)Running engineers two shifts, round the clock work….how is this a “least respected” paradigm of product development?
I say bravo. Kick Ass and show the world what we can do!
Remember Hybrids were Japans response to the EV. Let the games begin.
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May 28th, 2008 (9:50 pm)If they are running two shifts of engineering testing, they are flat out serious about getting this car out.
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May 28th, 2008 (9:55 pm)Thanks, Lyle for getting into some of the engineering. It’s very exciting and challenging!
“transition from an EV running to charge-sustaining…” I hope the engine cycles on and off longer/slower at lower speeds, stopping when the car stops. I hope the engine is well insulated, as people won’t want to hear the engine, esp. if it is on at lower speeds. An electric car needs to be quiet on the inside.
I also looking for good driver feedback on displays… battery, charge, miles left, and lots else, but keep an initial screen simple. I, for one, am not looking for a car that, like the (low selling) Honda Civic hybrid, that looks and acts like the non hybrid version.
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May 28th, 2008 (9:56 pm)Ziv (#1), large companies (American or not) typically don’t allow their engineers to make such statements to the public media. If you don’t believe me, try getting the same info out of a Toyota or Honda engineer so you can publish it (along with their name) to your blog. After you fail, perhaps you won’t resent American companies quite so much.
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May 28th, 2008 (10:10 pm)Sounds good,keep up the good work.
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May 28th, 2008 (10:21 pm)Thanks Lyle for this insight and thanks to the Volt Team for their frankness.
I think this is fantastic news and shows the transparency of the Volt Team and GM execs. I don’t want them exposing anything to the competition that would hinder the Volt winning this race, but I really appreciate their forthrightness and candor. To have engineers working 24/7 on this car is unprecedented and gives me hope that GM is pulling out all the stops to get this car to market as fast as possible, maybe even surprising us with an earlier launch and huge numbers of vehicles to purchase.
I hope the Team and execs know what kind of winner they have on their hand…..if they can beat the competition to market and at an affordable price. Go guys….
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May 28th, 2008 (10:27 pm)Glad to hear they are doing double shifts to get this car out. Apparently they realize the Volt does progressively better the earlier it comes out. Beat the competition by 1 month doesn’t earn you near as much as beating the competition by 12 months.
As far as a BEV most people will be requesting a lot more range than the REV version. I think it would be a good idea to offer a BEV volt with the option to select the range you need. If the price of a 100 or 80 mile range volt is much higher than the REV then it might be wasted money for some. Allowing for upgrading to more batteries latter would be great. My commute is only 12.5 miles (25 round trip) 40 to 60 would suit me nicely.
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May 28th, 2008 (10:28 pm)Ziv #1
“A Pure BEV possible? Response… Such a fundamental question deserves a none answer….”
*** *** **** *******
You would never get any answer from Toyota if they were/are developing cutting edge tech.
Personally, I’m glad that GM isn’t giving away the recipe, it’s kind of fun speculating and we all know this is a matter of survival so they’re dead serious about it.
You have a point about the GM accountants, and hopefully in the past few years they’ve been relegated to the books and only the books. Emerging out of this mess will take some time and sacrifices, and a long term view. Solutions will not be overnight.
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May 28th, 2008 (10:40 pm)If the accountants were the decision makers as they were in the “Old GM” the ZR1 and ZO6 never would have been built. This is a “New GM”…or should I say a return of the GM that made cars that are now highly sought after classics.
This is what the “New GM” is building {Thanks Bob!}
It literally blows away exotics costing 2X and 3X more.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=zr1+video&hl=en&sitesearch=#
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May 28th, 2008 (10:54 pm)I would never buy a pure BEV. I think I’m in the majority on this. I think GM’s E-REV, Tesla’s REEV, and similar designs represnt the future, and are an excelent way to transition from oil.
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May 28th, 2008 (10:57 pm)The Batteries have the capacity
The engineers have the sagacity
To end our useless toil for oil
Deliver the Volt,…please
Don’t let the momentum spoil
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May 28th, 2008 (10:58 pm)These Engineers are serious. They know they are working on something special and important.
We here in the GM-Volt nation salute you. If I could buy you a pizza for one of your late night coding sessions – I would. I hope Lutz is.
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May 28th, 2008 (10:59 pm)As a former engineer, everything that Bly mentions rings true. I remember large projects that took years and involved hundreds of engineers and all it takes is one goof to make the whole project look bad, regardless of how amazing it actually is.
Testing is fine, but the best method I ever found for finding problems was simply to sit down and imagine all the possible circumstances that I could think of and look to see whether they were handled properly by the system. It is absolutely impossible to test the millions of possible scenarios that can potentially occur. We never were anywhere close to 100% errorfree when we delivered the system to the customer and I note that Microsoft (and all the others) delivers new code with approximately 1.5 % of the lines in error. That error rate remains a constant, delivery after delivery. You just hope that any errors that are still present are relatively benign and easily corrected. Most often that is the case. Fortunately for the Volt, software errors are far easier and cheaper to correct that hardware errors.
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May 28th, 2008 (11:07 pm)kent beuchert #12
“Fortunately for the Volt, software errors are far easier and cheaper to correct that hardware errors”
*** ***** *****
Yes, and they should in this day and age be “flashable”.
Amen
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May 28th, 2008 (11:23 pm)Wow, I go away for two weeks and things are really starting to snowball. I still wonder when the Volt is going to move from ‘concept’ to pre-production.
I have noticed almost everyone is driving slower to make the fuel last longer, quite interesting really.
Cheers from downunder.
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May 28th, 2008 (11:57 pm)I am happiest that the rest of the work is software / firmware. This means that vehicles can be built and upgraded without physically changing the vehicles, so tooling can be cut, parts ordered, factories set up, all while the code keeps getting improved.
In addition, upgrades to the code can be made after vehicles are sold. GM should include a wireless connection to the vehicle, like OnStar, which allows GM to upgrade the software (with owners approval) where-ever the vehicle is – like a Microsoft upgrade.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:20 am)12 kent beuchert , 13 Grizzly….
You’ve both pretty much summed up what Bly’s team has to do….. i.e., exhaustive testing under all worst-possible anticipated conditions, followed by MORE testing to prove that every thing that could possibly go wrong that was NOT necessarily anticipated (as in Murphy’s law) will NOT fail.
I’m very glad to hear they’re using three shifts (including two engineering shifts) because the team’s continuity of effort will result in efficiencies that will certainly offset the added cost. I’m also reassured by having recently read that this #1 priority program is being done at GM, who employ a total of about 22,000 engineers. Not a bad talent pool if you have a problem!
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May 29th, 2008 (1:52 am)Ziv 1: I agree with GM keeping that type of the information close to the vest because the public may develop unreasonable expectations for the Volt and then be disappointed because this first effort didn’t meet their expectations. I know the media would make hay. We’ll all have to show patience and enjoy the fun. From what GM has said to date, I would think their comments are trending positively. Maybe they do have better batteries planned for 2010.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:59 am)“Bob Lutz said GM might be considering a pure EV version of the Volt to be sold in California, any comments on that?”
1) If I can fit in the car (I physically cannot get into cars like the Kia Rio and feel too cramped in most compact cars like the grand am, spectra, corolla, civic, etc.)
2) I can get 150 mpc
3) Can get more than 5 yrs out of the battery (even if that means going back to nickel based batteries or something other than Li)
4) It cost less than 50K
Then sign me up.
#3 will have to be fixed before bying a volt anyways, unless the sub-30K price is still in play.
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May 29th, 2008 (3:42 am)I want to know if they have eliminated the much-hated glass top from their design. I don’t even like moon roofs or sun roofs.
I am still interested in how the engineers will integrate air conditioning with the Volt. Best guess – barring any radical development in low voltage air conditioning tech, it will have to be tied to the ICE, meaning the ICE will run when the AC runs. AC would run down any battery very quickly.
So let the testing begin! This is where things get very interesting. What parts fail first, what falls apart that shouldn’t, what components have to be redesigned ? What new innovations will be incorporated in the Volt ? Will new battery technology cause a Volt redesign ?
Fasten your seat belts, folks. It going to be a bumpy ride to 2010.
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May 29th, 2008 (4:01 am)I used to want a totally electric car. After all, you can still get carpool stickers for electric cars in CA (and, weirdly, for natural gas powered cars, the only one being from Honda) and I totally want an electric drivetrain. But, the downside is that they force you to switch to electric pricing E-9, which is a disaster for solar power producers (and you wouldn’t believe the struggle I went through to get on E-7 instead of E-6).
E-7 was created as a boon to solar producers, with $.30/kwh from noon until 6pm during the summer. Prime time for solar. E-6 is supposed to be more “demand based” with peak cheaper and running 1pm to 7pm and partial peak hours bookending that. It’s not as good as E-7 but it’s OK for solar. But E-9 charges about $.30/kwh from 2pm until 9pm, almost completely missing the bulk of solar production hours (and partial peak bookending those hours, as well). I haven’t run the numbers, but E-9 is so punishing it would nearly eliminate the cost savings of the solar system and I’d be right back paying what I was paying before installing it. Ummm, that’s not too attractive for the exact same people who would probably be interested in a totally electric car!
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS
So, ironically, instead of extracting more value from my solar system, a fully electric car would extract much LESS value. Go figure.
Anyway, so I say, go EREV \Volt!!!
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May 29th, 2008 (4:42 am)#18 AC does take some significant power but still much less than propelling the car. Unless there is a better less energy intensive way to cool the car, then simply running the volt ac the same way a gas powered car is certainly an option. Electric motor turning turns the compressor via belts just like on a regular ice engine.
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May 29th, 2008 (5:07 am)Great progress GM !!! …Keep it up!!!…… Is Micky Bly talking about the internal grid of the VOLT or the electric power grid at home and business ? …..How many EV’s & E-REV’s can we have on the road befor we put too much pressure on the electric grid (the one that runs home and business) ? Remember we have 250,000,000 veihcles to replace . That’s a BIG job . I think Ford should get a clue and help out !
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May 29th, 2008 (5:13 am)Micky Bly’s comments are scary. Software diasters occur this way. There is a famous book by Frederick Brooks entitled “The Mythical Man Month” that talks about what happens to large scale software projects as more and more “man months” are added. It is a short book, easily read,. Those who think they are too busy to read even that can get the message from the pictures. Maybe what is happening is a lot more under control than it sounds like — I hope so.
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May 29th, 2008 (5:49 am)Sorry, that’s 250,000,000 ‘vehicles’….. 2.5 Billion kWh per day ! And .5 Billion gallons of gasoline saved each day ! ….BIG JOB
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May 29th, 2008 (6:12 am)#22 Dick G Yes, 250M is a big job, just as you say. Still, there are maybe 250M toasters, and each one uses the same amount of electricity when it’s on. So, generating enough electricity is something that not only can be done, it is being done.
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May 29th, 2008 (6:39 am)#23 RB, My 2 slice toaster draws 6.9Amps….that’s 828 watts. I use it approx. .15 hrs. per day …..that’s .12kWh’s per day. the VOLT draws 8 to12 kWh’s per day, 70 to 100 times more. Yes we can do it but only with more “RENEWABLE ENERGY”. Let’s get off the oil first and then the coal…..Have a nice Day…….. Dick G. ….aka Tax Man
:):)
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May 29th, 2008 (6:47 am)Dirk G #24
Please find attached debate concerning power grid capacity.
Roger Brown #57(The Chevy Volt and Securing America’s Future)
Based on your information I tried to find what effect could have electric transportation on US power grid.
In case I take gasoline consumption (136,000,000,000 gallons per annum) and took 20% fuel consumption efficiency in order to create thrust the result was 1 483 TWh per annum.
Taking into account car mi per annum and car like GM-Volt power usage 8 kWh per 40 miles resulted 562 TWh.
I would prefer to stick to figure 562 TWh since we are considering electric propulsion. Let’s assume that all cars are replaced with electric with range extention but we still need fuel for range extension 30%. That means that total max. Power consumption with Volt technology would be 393 TWh. America consumes 4500 TWh per annum. That means potentially EV will consume no more than 9% of current US power output. The most optimistic forecast shows that rate of electric car apperance on US market and replacement of conventional cars in case of strong US government support would be happening during coming 30 years. It means that power consumption growth atributable to EV (most possible) would be 0,3% per annum. Since most of EV would be charged over night the power grid will not face any supply problems. Moreover 393 TWh in 30 years can be covered with wind power. For instance Germany within five recent years installed 24 GW of wind power generating 64 TWh of electricity.
On other hand electric vehicles will not solve all existing problems with oil consumption because of air transport. But there are other solutions for that. And for government this issue should be primary task. There are some solutions introducing LNG or synthetic fuels.
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May 29th, 2008 (6:51 am)The ac could be run like it is in the Tahoe Hybrid. 300 volt motor/ac pump.
Tom
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May 29th, 2008 (7:15 am)Ziv @ 2, I’m not exactly certain but from what I inferred from you’re post, you and I are in agreement that we’d like to see a version of the volt that is offered as a pure EV or BEV.
The Range extender adds weight and cost (and yes, I know the battery will be more expensive), but I agree that it’s time for a pure electric that cannot burn a drop of oil with a basic 100 mile range. It can’t be that much more expensive.
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May 29th, 2008 (7:28 am)Well, this thread has alot less action. I’m surprised there isn’t alot of excitement about what engineering work is left, hehe.
What could be fun is ‘predict the results’ of GM’s annual meeting on June 3rd. I’m guessing we will have a nice long one after that.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say ‘accelerated fallout’ from the ‘economy.’ Maybe a plant closure, certainly a couple shifts eliminated…more aggressive attrition of employees.
Probably this meeting is when they will have to own up to the future implications of the decreased production, no longer able to hide falling sales through production. Maybe cast some of the blame toward the strike and claim a further hit from the strike. If it is really ugly you might see the we will ‘raise more capital thru…’ pitch line.
…or maybe they will exceed all expectations, return to profitability and the stock will go through the roof, signalling the end of Toyota and all other forein manufacturers.
…or maybe Wags quits
Get your marshmallows ready!
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May 29th, 2008 (7:31 am)#15 Kent Beuchert:
Too go along with what you were saying about addressing all of the possible scenarios a vehicle can go through, and fishing for errors so that they can be corrected, I have this suggestion:
Find the most un-lucky person there is, maybe perform a nationwide search and audition. Then when this lucky urrrhh un-lucky person is found, have them drive the Volt and just wait for the problems to start occurring. Rumors have floated around for years of a man named Murphy who even came up with a law about this sort of thing happening.
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May 29th, 2008 (7:32 am)forein = foreign
I just can’t let the bad spelling/grammar go.
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May 29th, 2008 (7:36 am)I think plug-in cars should be set, by default, to charge only at off-peak times of the day. I think the owner should have to go to the dealer to override this default.
Moreover, the charge should probably be set to begin at a randomly chosen time during the off-peak time. Having millions of cars starting to charge at precisely 10:00pm (or whatever) would probably be a serious strain on the grid!
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May 29th, 2008 (7:43 am)This brings me a flash back of 1939 to 1945 when all of America came together and we produced the machinery necessary to win the war. We produced guns, tanks, aircraft and ships to get the job done. This is the exact same spirit we need today to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.
Go GM . . . Go Volt !
God Bless America.
Tom
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May 29th, 2008 (7:44 am)The problem with expanding domestic production is not technical, but political, the NIMBY liberals block all efforts to build transmission and generation facilities by using various legal tactics. Something endangered, pollution, you name it. We could increase the amount of power produced by nuclear units from about 20% to about 40% if we could build them, but they are blocked. It appears from our experience in California, that only when shortages in generation actually disrupt service is the political will created to cut through the blockade. And that points to generation that can be built rather quickly, which is more fossil fuel generators. Shucks, my crystal ball just fogged over.
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May 29th, 2008 (7:50 am)Statik #33
I don’t know much about real design of the GM-Volt. I have only some clue. I have got some reasoning of engine size through discussions and I have got feeling that GM teem limited innovations to having new type of battery, IEC using as el. generator only mode and plug-in possibility. Concerning other issues I still wonder. I am not surprised about that and it’s fare enough for the GM-Volt #1 from any angle to make it work.
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May 29th, 2008 (8:12 am)Dave B.
The evolution of the REEV to BEV will follow CARB’s outline of steadily increasing the all electric range of the REEV, and as rapid recharge batteries are introduced, substitute those in for the normal batteries first, then as infrastructure for rapid recharging becomes ubiquitous, create rapid recharge BEV’s.
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May 29th, 2008 (8:35 am)Jason M. Hendler 39#,
Is it really necessary to have fast recharge. Would it be cheaper, than Li batteries? Big question mark. Will it save more CO2? Doubtfully. Big stress on the net – definitely since day time peak power will be used. New filling station will be needed in vicinity of transformer stations or lot of capacitors capacity shall be installed at existing petrol stations. High voltage application REEV (more than 500 V) will cause more risk…. At least it is no urgency for making such vehicle.
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May 29th, 2008 (8:53 am)Toyota’s development engineering department activities are more more secure than the national security secrets. I ran into a group of them at Toyota’s exhibit at the Iowa state fair last year and quized them on PEV development. They responded with a smirk followed by “no comment”. We can only guess if their staff is working overtime or what they are working on.
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May 29th, 2008 (9:01 am)A three phase 480V charger could pour in the 8 KWh of juice in short order (i. e. about 30 minutes) but a fault at that power level creates an explosion and blinding flash. In my opinion, this is not the way to go!
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May 29th, 2008 (9:07 am)#39 Jason M. Hendler ,
Yes. An E-REV to pure BEV evolution would make sense if cheap fast-charging batteries became available, and if enough fast charging stations spring up to support it.
But first we have to transition from constant trips to the gas station to plugging in at night. If everyone drove an E-REV (a.k.a. REEV or plug-in serial hybrid), then the U.S. wouldn’t need to import foreign oil at all. Domestic oil production would suffice for E-REV range extension. That’s a big deal right there.
Then when switch grass, algae, or some other biomass can be processed into E85 effectively, domestic oil production could be cut down to a small fraction of what it is today. Most experts agree that efficient energy crops could support about 25% of our transportation needs, so this fits pretty well with E-REV range extension, and with very little change to the current gas station infrastructure.
In this scenario, oil consumption would be so low that people wouldn’t worry about it anymore. So I’m not sure there will be sufficient motivation to evolve to pure BEVs and fast charging stations anytime soon, but who really knows? The only thing I feel sure about is that it will be steady transition, and not some kind of complete switchover as others have imagined. So during this transition, we’ll need cars that run on electricity, gas, and E85 – just like the Volt!
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May 29th, 2008 (9:20 am)#40 Darius,
With the right technology and economics, fast charging could work. After all, gasoline is not the safest thing to handle, but they made that work pretty well. My problem is with the motivation. Once E-REVS and ethanol catch on, why bother?
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May 29th, 2008 (9:31 am)As we transition from fully oil driven vehicles to BEV, PEV and E-REV vehicles the number of “service stations” located in and around our cities and highways will be reduced. If they don’t have a steady stream of gasoline/diesel fueled vehicles to fill-up a good percentage of them will close. This will not occur overnight and will not happen all at once when it starts. But, there will be a steady downward trend of fewer and fewer “service stations” open for business.
I am ready for GM to get this horse out of the stable and let us see how it runs. I am betting it will be a winner.
Being a software developer, I know some of the problems faced by GM with the Volt’s controlling software. They have to provide a method of updating the on-board software. Maybe, as one suggested, an On-Star type of update or a short stop at the dealer. I like the On-Star method because it can be done with out taking you out of your way and stopping your normal days activities. Ir would need to be done when the vehicle is stopped and not in use. Probably during the re-charge period. At some point in the process the vehicle could query the On-Star system for any software updates available and download and install them if any were available. When the process is finished the vehicle could display to the driver (when the driver next enters the vehicle) the information about the update. I do not really see why the driver/owner should have to agree to each update before the process is started.
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May 29th, 2008 (9:47 am)o.jeff #35
I think plug-in cars should be set, by default, to charge only at off-peak times of the day. I think the owner should have to go to the dealer to override this default.
Moreover, the charge should probably be set to begin at a randomly chosen time during the off-peak time. Having millions of cars starting to charge at precisely 10:00pm (or whatever) would probably be a serious strain on the grid!”
When would all the people who work the “graveyard” shift be allowed to charge thier cars? I’m not so sure people would want someone to dictate when they can charge.
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May 29th, 2008 (10:06 am)HAS ANYONE ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF HEAT. MOUNTING THE BATTERIES UNDER THE FLOOR IS CERTAIN TO GENERATE A LOT OF HEAT INSIDE THE CAR. IN PLACES LIKE TEXAS WHERE THE NORM IS 95 IN SUMMER THIS COULD BE A CONSIDERABLE PROBLEM.
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May 29th, 2008 (10:07 am)I think the observation that there are fewer gas stations in our future is a key observation. Recall the thread where the size of the Volt gas tank was reduced from 12 gallons to probably 6 or 7. I do not recall that it was mentions in that thread that our drive to fill up might be longer and therefore a larger tank would pay dividends in convenience. I guess I am still riding the horse for a tank with 8 usable gallons of gas.
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May 29th, 2008 (10:09 am)#46 MarkFLL
I have talked to my Rural Electric CO_OP about this problem. They tell me that it is not a problem. I was told that they have a box that could be plugged into an outlet that allows them to control the time of the charge. Within the last two years they have installed meters that can be read from the office. I no longer have to read my own meter.
Take Care
Arch
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May 29th, 2008 (10:24 am)# 48 wwskinn3
95 !!! You are haveing a cool front. We,ve already been 101 +.
Good old South Texas weather. That’s why I want A/C that works in this area, how much this will reduce the range is another question.
Tom
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May 29th, 2008 (10:25 am)Van #49
I’ve been thinking about the gas station angle myself. On the margins they make it’s tough to stay in business as it is. I guess they will have to start thinking about selling electricity as well as gas. If they make$.10 a KW instead of $.10 a gallon, I guess it’s still $.10…..
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May 29th, 2008 (10:31 am)o.jeff #35
I think plug-in cars should be set, by default, to charge only at off-peak times of the day. I think the owner should have to go to the dealer to override this default.
I can think of plenty of legitimate reasons why a person might want to charge their plug-in car during the day. For example, they might want to charge it while at work, they work off hours and peak hours are the most convenient for charging, they take a few trips during the day and need to recharge between trips, or they have a solar system and charging during peak hours would be preferable. In fact, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that every person that owns a plug-in vehicle will want to charge their car occasionally during peak hours, so to require that the owner get the dealer to override the default would just be a nuisance. In fact, if I were a dealer, I would override this “feature” before a new owner even leaves the lot with their plug-in car — for a small price, of course
.
Where I live electricity isn’t charged at different rates based on the time of the day and there doesn’t appear to be any shortage of electricity at the moment. In fact, there are local generation and transmission projects in the works that should prevent any problems in the near future, so this peak vs off-peak issue probably won’t be an issue for me anytime soon.
Having said all of that, I can see a reason why you might want the ability to schedule when your car recharges, but this should be up to the owner of the car, not anyone else.
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May 29th, 2008 (10:44 am)48 wwskinn3, 51 Tom M….
1) The battery dissipates very little heat when either charging or discharging because it’s kept between ~30% & ~80% charged —i.e., it’s never over-charged (or discharged fast enough) to become exothermic
2) The battery pack temperature is actively controlled by piping a coolant (likely ethylene glycol & water) thru it to keep within an ideal temperature range
3) The pack is well insulated (passively controlled) to minimize heat/cold leakage rates into or out of it and to reduce the electrical load needed to actively control its temperature.
If anything, I believe GM has overkilled the battery thermal design.
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May 29th, 2008 (10:48 am)I’ve been wondering what happens to gas stations as well. As cars use gas more efficiently or not at all, there is going to be less demand for gas stations. If we are all pluging in at home and only need gasoline for those occasional long trips, isn’t it eventually going to be hard to find a gas station?
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May 29th, 2008 (10:55 am)I may have just answered my own question (#55). I was just mentally counting up all of the gas stations within a few miles of my house and I realized when I hit 10 and was still counting that even if 90% of the gas stations went away, there would still be 1 or 2 within a relatively short drive of my house.
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May 29th, 2008 (10:59 am)N Riley #45
There should be enough software memory available to always have at least 2 on-board control systems stored. When a software update is ready for installation the current running version should be kept as a fall back system. How many times have you received software updates that did not worked as planned? Memory sticks should provide ample memory to always have a default working control system that will get you home or to a dealer.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:01 am)Should have been N Riley #46 not #45.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:02 am)Don’t worry about fueling stations. They will learn to sell ethanol, methanol, bio-diesel, hydrogen, compressed air, 110/220 electricity and rapid recharge electricity.
If they put 40 miles worth of rapid recharge batteries in a Chevy Volt, a driver could rapid recharge at home, or support the buildout of rapid recharge fueling stations, or refill with gasoline / ethanol, if the first two options aren’t available.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:07 am)Fewer gas stations, hmmm. This is a bad thing how, exactly ? I thought we wanted to reduce oil usage. Yeah, the gas station owners who have been gouging my wallet all year. Those guys. I feel real bad for them – NOT !
And about Onstar, it’s ok, I guess – As long as I have the option to leave my Onstar service turned off. The last thing I need is another bill to pay, after buying my brand new Chevy Volt.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:09 am)Better yet, what happens when the transportation departments aren’t getting enough funding from the gas tax and the roads go to hell. Is there going to be a driver tax? More toll roads?
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May 29th, 2008 (11:14 am)ksuhwail,
The government will extract fees for licenses, registration, vehicle sales, vehicle parts and service taxes, tolls, property taxes, etc. There is no end to the way a government can take your money.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:36 am)Most filling stations today use gas as a loss-leader to pull customers into their profitable convenience stores and car washes so I doubt that our cars “going electric” will make them a less convenient place to pick up fast grocery items. When gas is gone, they will find other items like fast-charge electricity, biofuel etc. to bring customers into their over-priced grocery stores.
Don’t worry, the FREE market ALWAYS fills a vacuum. That is as long as socialist politicians and “intellectual leftist elites” keep their ignorant mitts off the free market.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:36 am)Wow, by the time I see this thing at 8 AM PDT, you guys are miles ahead of me.
#14 Demetrius:
I think that “..something special and important” is a masterpiece of understatement. The entire future of GM as a viable business is on the line here, IMHO.
#33 Statik:
Yeah. Somebody once famously said “Nothing focuses the mind like the imminent prospect of hanging.” So it is with $4/gal gas in the auto industry, it would appear. It should be an interesting meeting.
#34 Schmeltz:
Did somebody call for me?
Are you old enough to remember “Lil’ Abner”? Al Capp had a character named “Joe Blfxzt”, or some such. He walked around with a little black cloud over his head, constantly raining. I think of him often.
#36 o. jeff
I agree with MDDave at #53. Off peak charging is a wonderful thing. I would do it every night. But I would use the Volt for my business travel during the day, so I would want to recharge it at work during the day as much as possible. Peak time charging is still better than burning gas, IMHO.
#37 Tom M:
I have just been reading “The Steel Wave” by Jeff Schaara. He chronicles, for about the umpteenth time, how the US ramped up from essentially zero to the most fearsome war machine in history in the time frame you describe. Getting off of oil should be a walk in the park compared to that. An a lot cheaper than burning up $2 billion a week on oil wars.
Of course Jimmy Carter declared that energy independence was “The moral equivalent of war.” over 30 years ago, and everybody went back to sleep on that. Maybe $135/barrel oil is “The moral equivalent of Pearl Harbor.” I sure hope so.
You guys are awesome. Bring it on.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:37 am)o.jeff #36
I think plug-in cars should be set, by default, to charge only at off-peak times of the day. I think the owner should have to go to the dealer to override this default.
No offense, but I’m glad you are not in charge.
I travel 51 miles one way and need to charge at work during the day. If I had to live by the rule that you suggested, then I would have to use a lot more gasoline. The Volt is a way to get off of gas. I prefer to do that than plug-in only during a certain time of day. I realize you are concerned about the grid, but I don’t believe you have to worry about yet. It will take years, if ever, to become a problem. I believe there was a study done by the power companies, but I can’t seem to find it.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:42 am)Rashiid Amul:
The ” W-word” got me again, LOL. Direct to “moderation”. All that work on my brilliant comment too! I can see it on my screen as #63, but I sense that nobody else can. Oh well, maybe it’s for the best.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:54 am)Terry K, #22. The glass roof (or see-thru composite) has been removed for the production model. I share your sentiments. I don’t like it either.
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May 29th, 2008 (11:56 am)Noel. Nope. My comment is #63 and what you wrote me is #64.
Watch out for that word. It sure is a doosey.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:12 pm)#22 Terry K, #66 Rashiid Amul:
Now that Rashiid brings it up, me too.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:19 pm)Is OnStar cellular or satellite? Will it work underground in a garage where I will have the car plugged in? I actually like downloading the software from the web wirelessly while the car is in the garage plugged in.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:26 pm)I would never buy a 100% electric vehicle unless it had a guaranteed range of at least 500 miles on a single charge. GM should seriously consider building the Volt around an option to have something like a solar cel roof to trickle charge batteries while they’re parked in open air environments. I know Audis had something like this build into the moonroof so it’s not unheard of in a production car. (granted I think it was the A8 though). In the real world, I want to be able to drive the car and only have to charge once a week, relying on the gas engine for most of the charge throughout the week. I hope GM understands that not everyone who wants a Volt lives in a 1800 sq ft house with a garage where an outlet is easily accessable. Renters won’t have an outlet, people who travel and stay at hotels won’t have an outlet, very few city parking decks have (or will ever retrofit for) outlets. I live in a condo and I’m having quite a time trying to get the okay for an outlet to be run from my electrical box to near my parking spot since it all runs on “common area” and is a nightmare. I may eventually resort to buying a 200′ extension cable to run from the back of the building to my parking spot if I get a Volt.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:31 pm)I agree with #63 Rashiid Amul .
It is not realistic to expect “1-size to fit all“, so to speak. And, people’s driving habits change from time to time.
Some people drive long distances and will charge their car at work whenever possible. There are others who work work graveyard and will need to recharge during daytime hours. On their days off they will probably change to charging theior car duirng night time.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:31 pm)OnStar is satellite based, I do believe. I would think GM would only charge Volt owners for non-software update features. OnStar would always be activated if only for the sole purpose of downloading updates. And I agree memory or storage should be sufficient to store the “old” version of software after an update with some method to “go back” to it if the new version exhibits problems. If GM is reading our comments, we should be really giving their engineers a “foot up”. Maybe we should charge them for all these great ideas. Of course, they would counter by saying they had already thought of it.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:32 pm)Sorry about the typo. I meant to say “charging their car during the night time hours.”
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May 29th, 2008 (12:51 pm)An off-peak “default” recharge is OK as long as those who need to opportunity charge during the day can easily override the default.
It would be simple on the touch screen display & sexy voice:
Voice & Display: “Charge electricity detected, your current state of charge is [ ] percent. Your charging default is [off peak] [full]. Please confirm or enter new starting time and desired range.”
On screen buttons: (default or selected in bold)
[OK] [set] [clear]
[off peak] [now]
[10 miles] [20miles] [30 miles] [full]
Voice: “Thank you. Charging to begin off peak and will continue until full.” (or whatever was selected). Voice & Display continues: “Estimated charge time is 4 hours and 15 minutes.”
Charge Selection, State of Charge and Countdown Charge Timer continue to display until cleared or overridden by returning driver. Off peak time can be changed by selecting [off peak] then tapping [set] for “please select off peak times [start] [end] [hours] [minutes].
Something like this could be all software driven touch screen.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:54 pm)OnStar is satellite based. And, it could very well be used to update firmware in the Volt provided all the bases are covered!
There are many more considerations than one might expect. For example — Who will initiate the update? Will it be GM or the Volt? If it is GM, then there has to be sophisticated security software in the Volt computer to ensure it is truly GM that is sending the update and not a hacker.
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May 29th, 2008 (12:57 pm)Another consideration. If GM initiates upgrades, the Volt computer would have to sort everything out to ensure the firmware upgrades are the correct version.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:06 pm)For all the excitement the fans of this website are enjoying, I hope the engineers and all the people working on the Volt can realize they are a part of something much larger. Their efforts remind me of Steve Jobs challenging John Sculley as to whether he wanted to be remembered for selling “colored sugar water [Sculley was Pres. of Pepsico at the time] or do you want a chance to change the world?” GM, building and selling the Volt and bringing on additional ER-BEV models WILL change our world.
I can remember asking if a gas powered generator can be added to an electric car to power the electric motor during an electric car workshop and the answer was “No.” GM has overcome whatever was the technical problem.
So apparently Silicon Valley is not the only place where one can be a part of something “insanely great” and world changing. I hope this generation finds the will and the courage to stand with that other “greatest generation.”
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May 29th, 2008 (1:07 pm)Today version of Click and Clack (at least in my local paper) addressed a problem with the Prius. Apparently, it uses an electric-driven rack and pinion for steering to save on fuel. Unfortunatley, the technology is somewhat raw, and the letter- writer experienced failure on a 2003 with just 70,000 miles on it. Estimated repair cost at $2,000. Tom and Ray regretfully inform the writer that the recall on rack and pinion systems for 2004 Prius’ does not apply and is based upon a different problem.
I bring this up for two reasons. First, I think it is worth pointing out that as buyers of cutting-edge technology, we will be taking on some risk. Second, I think that it is worth pointing out that Toyota also issues recalls, and inflicts expensive repair problems on its customers.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:11 pm)Estero #74
As I stated previously, the Volt could need to initiate the update request. If an update was available, it should be downloaded and possibly installed without the driver/owner being involved. At the most the driver/owner (and it should be the owner) could ok the installation. But, personally, I think this is an extra step that should be automated. Most owners will be very slow or not at all at responding to an update installation request. They would not get done and would “pile-up” waiting for ok.
I agree security is of the utmost importance. The Volt would have a unique identifier and the communications would be encrypted. As long as the OnStar servers were secure, it should be ok.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:11 pm)#33 Statik
I just read a headline that said, “GM says 19,000 U.S. factory workers take buyouts ” That sounds like your, “…more aggressive attrition of employees.”
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May 29th, 2008 (1:17 pm)MarkinWI (#78)
Where there is little risk, there is also little reward.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:25 pm)Another justification for the Volt to initiate the update request is that it would be contacting OnStar. OnStar would recognize the unique Volt id and the only thing downloaded would be the update file. The Volt should not accept any communication it did not initiate. Hackers should not be a problem as long as the Volt ignores any request for access it did not initiate.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:27 pm)Just go ahead and build it. They act like it has to be perfect. If the cell phone industry had waited till they had a phone like they have now it would have taken many years longer. I wouldn’t be surprised if japan or china didn’t get something similar out first, but I hope not.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:35 pm)#36 o.jeff:
I think a default to charge at night at a random time that always resets to default is probably sufficient. I’m OK with having to punch through a menu to override it every time I want to charge at a different time but not OK with going to a dealer to do it.
My solar system is a little different than most these days in that when the grid goes down, I can still power anything in the house. In those cases, the system has to throttle back the panel power production to match the house demand, which is typically pretty low. When we have an “extended” outage (such as from a huge storm or undoubtedly the next Big One earthquake which expected Real Soon Now) we have to use as much power as we possibly can during the daylight hours (when it’s free and plentiful) and save it at night (when it comes from the batteries). One of the advantages I’m looking at for the Volt is to be able to charge it directly from the panels in one of those Worst Case Scenarios since gas may not even be available for a few days.
# 38 Van:
are claiming they are going to very nearly meet the 10% by 2010 requirement.
Actually, nuclear is really expensive. I’m hardly anti-nuclear, but massive government subsidies are the only thing that makes it even remotely affordable. And they need some prime real estate, too, usually near rivers or lakes for the heat discharge which is also a problem. Plus, since we’re scared of breeder reactors in the US, we have a lot more waste to deal with than in other countries. But the Good News is that we’ve waited so long to build that power infrastructure that solar thermal is looking pretty cheap and we can build it in places that nobody is using or wants to use for anything else! CA is going to bring online massive amounts of solar by 2010(ish) since we’ve mandated 10% of our power come from there by then. These projects are getting approved with great, great speed, and moving right along. PG&E (my local power overlords
I just don’t think we are going to have problems making electricity in this country when we need it.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:45 pm)nasaman:
While we are talking batteries and charging I would like to share something I heard on May 19. I was listening to the Bill Bennett show at 7 a.m. cst. on our local station “930 KLUP” His interview was with Mr bob Lutz and they were discussing the VOLT and that some people woud probably not be using the generator at all. His comment was “They would have to push a button to start the generator once in a while so the gas did not become stale” Lyle tried to confirm this but I don’t think he got to far with GM on this comment.
The long and short of this is, I know I’m getting old but so far I’m not hard of hearing. That’s what I heard !
Have a great day,
Tom
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May 29th, 2008 (1:45 pm)I read somewhere that a small section of the desert country could be set up with solar generation to power most of the country’s present and future needs. It might mean taking a 100 mile square of land now owned by the government and covering it with the necessary equipment. But, that is a very small piece of real estate. I know I would love to add solar power to my home, but it is just too costly at present. Plus, at my age, I would not benefit too much from it. If the cost was reasonable I would still do it.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:49 pm)#77 N Riley
We’re on the same page! I had a recent example to illustrate your point — Most owners will be very slow or not at all at responding to an update installation request. They would not get done and would “pile-up” waiting for ok.
I took on another client recently to maintain their business computers. They are all Windows XP based and had been setup for automatic updates. But, they had to click OK to authorize the updates. That never happened! Many high priority updates were backed up to no end.
We don’t want this sort of thing happening with the Volt!
When it comes to OnStar, I believe that it is nothing more than a relay satellite. So, the transmission like will be:
Volt to Onstar
Onstar to GM
GM to Onstar
Onstar to Volt
Security will be needed for the entire loop, not just between the Volt and Onstar. Yetm I’m not saying anything here that you & GM don’t already know. I have full confidence that should GM decide to employ OnStar in firmware updates, that the satellite links will have all the security necessary.
I have OnStar in my current car. It is worth noting that once I drive into my garage that the OnStar signal is lost. Again, I’m confident GM already knows that and will adjust accordingly. For example, they could download the firmware updates while the Volt is running down the highway and then install the updates once the car becomes parked. Of course, there are other possibilities as well.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:50 pm)Tom m #83
I think Mr. Lutz has a tendency to say “too much” sometimes that GM does not want to stand behind because they don’t want to say too much about their plans at this time. I have heard the same thing somewhere else – maybe just on this forum. It would be a good idea to have a button. It could be automated through software that the ICE be required to run for a set amount of time over a set period of time. Say, five minutes every month.
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May 29th, 2008 (1:54 pm)Estero #85
You are on beam. Updates could easily be downloaded anytime the vehicle could establish contact with OnStar with the installation done while parked. Definitely needs to be done while parked and probably “plugged in” to let the vehicle know it is to be parked for an extended time.
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May 29th, 2008 (2:09 pm)I am amazed that this may be the first time a picture of the Malibu mule was shown without someone saying, “If that is what the Volt is going to look like, then count me out”. Maybe everyone is getting educated.
If those of you who looked at the Popular Mechanics link I posted, did you read it like I did to understand from what the author saw or was shown, the Volt is going to look closer to the Prius than the original concept Volt? Anybody understand it like that?
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May 29th, 2008 (2:14 pm)Sorry, but I posted the link on yesterday’s post. Here is it:
Another Popular Mechanics link about the Volt. You should find it interesting. I did.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4257460.html
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May 29th, 2008 (2:30 pm)#54
nasaman
If the battery cooling is by ethylene glycol, that would be awesome for AC and heating capacity. Food grade ethylene glycol is the most common heat exchange fluid in solar thermal applications because it is environmentally safe. In heat pumps, R-410A is becoming the norm because of it’s safety as well.
But regardless, if there has to be a heat pump for the batteries, making a mini-split (which can set different temps for diff areas – 58 for the batteries and 68 for inside the car) with the interior heating and cooling should not be too hard. In most cases, the direction of heat flow is the same (when Batteries need to be cooled, the inside need to be cooled and vice versa).
This will cost more effeciency in regards to miles per charge, but it makes the battery life span longer.
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May 29th, 2008 (2:43 pm)I continue to be amazed at the technical expertise exhibited by some of my fellow posters on this Volt forum. You guys, and you know who I am talking about, are way ahead of me. It is refreshing to read some of these comments. I admit I do not always understand what you said, but most of the times I do. Keep it up. I can’t wait to read some of the comments as we progress in our knowledge of the Volt.
GO GM GO VOLT……………………….GO my fellow posters, if that is the correct word.
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May 29th, 2008 (2:43 pm)Go GM Go!
For all of the belly aching the union is doing (at least here in Canada), blaming government for it’s woe’s, it is refreshing to see a unique, GM made solution that can make a difference!
GM should look at the technology of a small Vancouver company – Accelrate Power Systems – they have an awesome charger system for everything from cell phones to industrial batteries, that maximizes the charging rate while regulating the temperature of the battery pack (reportedly reducing charge times by 80% or more, if I recall properly).
As for controlling the charging time/rate, I would think any charging during peak times (or any times, really) would need to be controllable by the local power authority, to ensure there are no brown outs on the hottest of summer days – better to burn a bit of gas/E85 then kill the electrical grid!
Also, the option of using either a 120v or 220v outlet would be nice, especially on the weekend when you tend to be out and about many times through the day – being able to fully recharge the batteries would nice. It would also work well in the morning, for early arrivers at work. Peak power consumption usually starts around 10am or 11am, as the heat of the day kicks in and the air conditioning load starts to rise … being able to charge up the car before that time would be of great benefit … and would move that peak time up to 8am or 9am eventually!
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May 29th, 2008 (2:49 pm)Ian F #92
Thanks for the info. I am sure someone from GM will look at the company, if it has not already done so. Charging systems is one of the hurdles GM faces. Your comments were on target in relation to charging times. The vast majority of the Volts will be charged at night, but a considerable number will need to be charged at all times of the day. We aren’t all at home asleep in our beds at night. Some of us are keeping the wheels of industry humming. And my thanks to them for doing that job.
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May 29th, 2008 (2:52 pm)#79 ThombDbhomb:
Yeah, I saw it too. “25% of the US blue collar work force.” This may not be the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
#89 N. Riley:
Yeah, that’s exactly what I read.
I hasten to add that I don’t care if it does look like the Prius if it does all of the things it is supposed to do. I have a theory that, as Cds get lower, cars tend to look more and more alike.
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May 29th, 2008 (3:05 pm)Just a comment with regards to Onstar. I don’t think people should have to pay for Onstar just so GM can update their software. So if Onstar is available on the vehicle but the customer does not have the service. GM should have the ability to use the system to update their software, and the customer should have the option to not have to pay for the service and it still should update.
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May 29th, 2008 (3:18 pm)The more I read about the Volt, the more I think it is just a car version of an Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS).
Granted UPS systems use lead acid because of its high charge & discharge efficiency, life expectancy and no need for weight restriction, but it serves a similar purpose. In a UPS system, the USP buffers various voltages in and provides a steady signal out with some backup power in case of a power outage.
In the Volt, the direction is reversed, but still acts like a buffer. The motor only uses the speed that is most efficient for charging the battery. The battery stores the efficient power and supplies varying power for varying loads, so the need for the transmission (which can cause a regular car to operate at less than it’s highest efficiency too often) is eliminated. And instead of the 40 miles being available in case of a power outage (empty tank), it is used at the beginning of the cycle.
I think this should be the standard design for I.C.E. from this point on. Eliminate transmissions from cars and always provide power from the fuel at the most efficient rate. Use the battery as a buffer.
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May 29th, 2008 (3:19 pm)#78 ThombDbhomb
It is true they have been really pushing the deal..even moreso in the last month or so, but that is actually the final numbers of the ‘old initiative’
The timing is as such because of the annual meeting next week. They have to get ahead of the market, so it doesn’t have a cow when it hears the bill.
It was expected that around 12,000 would take the deal. GM is happy to lose this many.
…however, there is a very real cost to eliminating these jobs. The last deal these 19,000 can work is June 30th, which means GM is writing 19,000 cheques, upwards of 140K for the ‘youngins…and the aged. While the 25-30 year guys are getting a percentage of their salary and a full pension.
Lets say the average cost is 80K…19,000x 80K = 1.5 billion.
I would expect a further action at the meeting…in the neighbourhood of 7,000-10,000 more blue collar AND management.
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May 29th, 2008 (3:22 pm)Addendum:
I said ‘final numbers,’ which of course is not accurate, employees still have a couple weeks left to take the package(s), but realistically, those who are…have. I suppose another couple hundred could still grab it.
Linky for those interested:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080529/gm_buyouts.html
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May 29th, 2008 (3:31 pm)If you don’t want to pay for Onstar, a software fix can be done like on any other car when it’s under warranty–you bring it in to get the update done when you get an oil change.
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May 29th, 2008 (3:51 pm)Gary P (#101)
Just thinking about an oil change on an electric car gives me the willies.
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May 29th, 2008 (3:53 pm)For the on-board ICE that is. Not the electric motor.
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May 29th, 2008 (4:05 pm)A lawn mower uses oil. I don’t think I ever had an oil change on my lawn mower (years). Maybe I should.
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May 29th, 2008 (4:12 pm)#98 Statik
So, who is going to build my Volt? Robots? Newer, lower paid workers? When will they be hired?
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May 29th, 2008 (4:24 pm)noel park #94
I may be in the minority here, but I have always thought the Prius looked pretty good these last few years. Although, some of the “futuristic” looking Prius concepts I have seen I liked better. I just want the Volt to look as futuristic as possible while providing primarily two things: 1) tremendous fuel savings over its life and 2) plenty of leg and head room for 6′2″ people and over. The Prius delivers on #2 now. I have driven several and had plenty of head and leg room in front and back. Initial cost is always a consideration, but as gasoline prices climb, it is less of a concern.
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May 29th, 2008 (4:31 pm)BigCityCat 95
That was my premise in my previous comment. OnStar should be active on all GM autos in the future for software updates, location of vehicle in case of stolen, lost or whatever. Certain customer use features should be a monthly fee. GM should reduce the fee they are presently charging. Or the customer should be able to choose from a menu of services. I don’t care for the phone service offered, but many of the other features I might be willing to pay for. Just don’t include all of it together in one big expensive package and price it that way.
We have to remember that the software running on your present vehicle and will be running on the Volt does not belong to you, the owner. It belongs to GM or Ford, etc. It should be at their cost to keep it maintained.
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May 29th, 2008 (4:52 pm)#105 N Riley:
I agree.
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May 29th, 2008 (5:09 pm)#104 ThombDbhomb:
Yeah, new lower paid workers would be good. It’s a pretty simple car for them to learn on, right?
The Yahoo news page had an article a few minutes ago to the effect that GM was looking to shut down some shifts at a light truck plant or plants and shift some of the workers to the Lordstown Cobalt/G5 plant and the Malibu/G6 plant, wherever that is. So maybe that’s the plan. There are going to be plenty of SUV/light truck plant workers available, if they don’t all take the package.
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May 29th, 2008 (5:13 pm)51 Tom
I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks for the Info. Now if we can keep the dealers from doing their “Dealer Markup” that they like to do then this may work. I remember trying to buy a PT Cruiser some years ago and the dealer had marked it up $5,500. When I asked him why he said “cause they could get it”. This kind of thing can kill the price of the volt to the people who need to buy it.
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May 29th, 2008 (5:19 pm)Schmeltz #34:
Your unluckiest man contest to test the Volt is interesting, except that if the won the contest, he would no longer be the unluckiest man, and therefore would have to resign before the testing could start….
Dale #81:
Your comparison of a Volt that fails to a cell phone that fails is not really accurate. If my cell phone does not connect, is is an irritation. If the software for the Volt fails at 5:00 rush hour as I am driving with my wife through town, it could be VERY serious!
The last thing GM needs with this vehicle is a rash of crashes, becuase of a software bug……
I for one, am glad they are taking all of this very seriously!
Go GM Volt Team!!!!
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May 29th, 2008 (5:21 pm)I LIKE THE IDEA OF SOLOR PANELS MADE INTO THE ROOF. THEY HAVE SOME NEW ONES OUT THAT ARE PAPER THIN AND COULD BE INSTALLED QUITE EASILY. THEN WE COULD RECHARGE AS WE DRIVE OR THE CAR COULD RECHARGE VIA SOLAR POWER WHILE PARKED AT WORK. THIS WOULD BE GREAT! IF GM DOESN’T DO IT THEN I’LL BET THERE WILL BE AN AFTERMARKET ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.
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May 29th, 2008 (5:26 pm)Three comments:
1) If E-REVs really catch on, the number of gas stations in my local neighborhood will decrease, but the number of gas stations on highways will stay about the same.
2) The Volt should include a timer that allows the driver to delay the start of charging. The default for this timer should be 11pm. The driver should be able to override this default.
3) For Firmware updates, I would prefer a simpler cheaper mechanism, perhaps even requiring dealer service. Remember that Firmware is updated much less frequently that personal computer code. When was that last time you updated the Firmware on your microwave? Also, today’s cars already have lots of Firmware. How often do you update the Firmware on your current car?
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May 29th, 2008 (6:01 pm)leave the timer to the owners. Everyones lives are different. Program your own.
My vehicle gets updated when the dealer does routine oil etc.
Most cars have web forums that discuss TSB’s and you can down load a PDF and bring it to your dealer if your concerned.
So dose yours they just don’t tell you of all the TSB technical service bulletins.
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May 29th, 2008 (6:05 pm)I love it! All of my 15 years of Jeeps (3, 194, 2005, 2007) have been nearly flawless. I would say they are much better quality than my Nissan Titan (2004) or Subaru Outback (2001).
American Car company’s rock now-days. I will never sell my 07 4 door Jeep Rubi, but I have the magnet for the Volt on the back. It will be my next car for sure!
Go GM!
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May 29th, 2008 (6:28 pm)#36 o.jeff
I think plug-in cars should be set, by default, to charge only at off-peak times of the day. I think the owner should have to go to the dealer to override this default.
Time-of-use metering should take care of peak-time chargers with onerous electricity rates. However, as solar energy and wind power, which are intermittent in nature, become more prevalent. the peak load on the grid will vary throughout the day. So, ideally, it would be best if the grid could dynamically schedule your charging as spare power becomes available.
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May 29th, 2008 (6:37 pm)#111 wwskinn3:
If it’s any consolation to you, our local Dodge dealer has been advertising a brand new 2008 PT Cruiser for $9995 every weekend for at least a month. so it would appear that what went around has come around in this case. Or, “It’s a long worm that has no turning.”
Lyle:
With over 100 comments on almost every topic lately, it is getting to be almost a full time job to keep up with this blog.
Awesome work sir!
And thanks again for the spell check. It just saved me again now.
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May 29th, 2008 (6:42 pm)I now dedicate several hours a day to the Volt. I hope it is not all in vain. GO VOLT,,,,,GO GM… TED
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May 29th, 2008 (8:24 pm)I can’t wait! I’ll be retired, I’ll have my Chevy Volt with my pop-up camper and moving across country at 30 miles a day. sometimes longer when it’s mostly downhill. Less time traveling equals more time enjoying the scenery. When can I get my Volt? Bye Bye opec.
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May 29th, 2008 (8:24 pm)#106 ThombDbhomb
“So, who is going to build my Volt? Robots? Newer, lower paid workers? When will they be hired?”
They will put 10 truck plant workers in a room and draw a straw, whoever gets the short one gets to keep working at GM. Just wait for the annual report next week…you’ll see it plain as palin can be.
GM’s workforce hasn’t increased in 20 years….and more than likely it never will again.
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May 29th, 2008 (8:38 pm)ThombDbhomb… sort of our robots vs Japans. I guess that’s why cars haven’t gone up at the rate of inflation.
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May 29th, 2008 (8:38 pm)#121 Statik
Sad but true. I hope the Volt will change the game. I hope to see them expand again.
Take Care
Arch
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May 29th, 2008 (8:46 pm)fred #120
Now that is what I call taking it in easy stages: “moving across country at 30 miles a day”. You should have plenty of time to see local scenery while the Volt recharges. With fast recharging, you might get three or four 30 mile legs in each day. Now that is traveling.
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May 29th, 2008 (8:48 pm)Statik #121
I don’t know if the number of GM workers have gone up or not, but I do think the cost of labor is the primary reason for the job losses today and in the near term. Now who do you think is primarily responsible for that labor cost?
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May 29th, 2008 (9:14 pm)DaveP #85, nuclear power produces electricity at far less cost than renewables, or about the same as coal, without the air pollution. Again, they will not be built because of political will, not technical or economic. In California, there is a lot of available water to the west.
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May 29th, 2008 (9:51 pm)Statik:
You are mostly right but mainly in regards to the short term. One thing this country has no shortage of is idea people, factory space, and semi-skilled workers to run them. What we haven’t had in a long time is: a weak dollar and a trade advantage.
There are many industries killed off in this country whose workers were “Retrained” to something else that can pick up where they left off should it become feasible to build things in this country again (it is getting close)
Short term…yeah, it is exactly as your nightmare says it is. Long term…hard telling. We are by no means a third world country with limited infrastructure, capital, and knowledge base.
If the truly worst happens and the dollar is depegged from oil and other currencies drop us we will get to building and exporting much faster. In that scenario the dollar will plummet so fast relative to our major trade deficit partners that the US becomes a dollar trap for all the foreign car manufacturers. They either have to cut bait on the facilities or keep all the dollars here: That is a net win for GM and Ford who will become very price competitive on a Volt, Hybrid, or Diesel manufactured here and exported.
As far as the Toyota guys grinning. I don’t mind Toyota but I think in terms of quality and warranty I am going to go with the company who has been field testing EV’s for many years now.
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May 29th, 2008 (10:31 pm)118 noel park
I’ve seen the same thing however, it was almost a year before they got enough of the vehicles to drop the markup. They did the same thing with the new corvette.
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May 30th, 2008 (2:29 am)Jason M. Hendler #59
I do not think, that fast recharge will be so simple as filling any type of liquid fuel. High voltage and related personal injury fret will require some infrastructure. The other thing – the fuel stations in remote areas do not have powerful service from Grid Company. May be you can avoid this by using super capacitors at petrol stations, but then anyway you will have limitation on number of cars you can service. I would agree with you that this is not so important in the beginning and later on it will be build on.
Mike #51
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May 30th, 2008 (2:30 am)Mike #51
Your point is really an issue and huge limitation for EV. Those who live in downtown will be beyond of electricity reach and simply due to than won’t even think about GM-Volt
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May 30th, 2008 (5:51 am)Onstar is a cell phone service, not satellite.
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May 30th, 2008 (6:47 am)130 RB….
As you said, “Onstar is a cell phone service, not satellite.” That’s largely true, but there are some important caveats regarding this remarkable, highly-refined GM nav/com system….
1) OnStar (like all GPS navigational devices) has a high-gain satellite antenna & receiver for GPS signals
2) OnStar (UNLIKE other cell phone services) can access multiple cell phone providers for the best connection
3) All transmit/receive signals are via its high-gain, roof-mounted antenna (better signal strength & your brain isn’t exposed to RF)
4) OnStar uses a stronger transmit signal for hands-free phone & navigation than normal cell phones, and a stronger-still signal for emergency communications
5) OnStar’s GPS receiver is always ON, so…. a) if your car is stolen, OR b) you’re in an accident, your car’s GPS location is sent to OnStar central, who can guide police, EMT’s, etc to your car without your help
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May 30th, 2008 (7:02 am)#126 Morgan
#124 Riley
The main cause of loss of employees over time has been automation and efficiency. GM has a half the workers it had only 10+ years ago…but builds no fewer vehicles
However, it has lost share (proportionally) to the market. GM’s business platform (much like over half of current learge cap companies) is built on the strategy of ‘grow or die’
GM borrows and borrows to grow, in the face of ’sane’ logic, because in a theoretical perpetually increasing market, the losses of 5 years ago can’t catch up to the revenue/cash flow of today. This is actually smart if your company is looking bad and you don’t see the road out to success, you can essential keep your company on life-support for as long as the market continues expand…which for autos has been a long, long time.
You see this all the time with the ’surprise’ bankruptcies of big names. Company XYZ says we are doing ok, we are going to raise capital and grow their business. When either A) they don’t get the capital or B) can’t grow even when throwing money at the problem fails, the company is DOA…usually in under two years.
Long story short…GM is trying now to cut as many costs (employees, plants, etc) as they try and ‘ride out the economic downturn’ (I’m sure you’ll hear that about a dozen times at the meeting next week). GM has gone too long on borrowed time and money to be viable in a contracting/stagnant market, it’s existence can only be sustained in a growing market.
Million dollar question, “When will the automarket recover?” Current burn puts GM at 8 to 10 quarters.
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May 30th, 2008 (7:17 am)#126 Morgan
Sorry, I got long winded I didn’t respond to you..even though I wrote your name, lol.
I’m not sure what you are talking about mentioning the ‘US not being a third world country and have a new advantage with trade and the weak dollar’ or Toyota guys grinning. Maybe you are referencing another poster?
For the record, America is still the market. What is going on now is just a little much need fiscal spanking. I have no doubt it the US a economic superpower…it has just lost it’s way a little bit.
As for the depegging of oil. It won’t…can’t happen. At least now right now. I don’t want to get into a big fancy economic paper here, but the short of it is…there is no infrastructure (or at least not enough) ie) equities, government and corporate debt securities
ie) Your Grandma dies, and you get 10billion a day (worldwide sales of oil) or 3.6 trillion a year. Now you want to put it in the bank and get a guaranteed return. Impossible in Euro based currencies, the liquidity just isn’t there…yet.
Worldwide financial assets – $170 trillion
US backed financial assets – $65 trillion
You might think those numbers are getting wider apart, but in 2006 and 2007, the US lead the world in asset growth.
/dang…I got long again…apologies
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May 30th, 2008 (8:16 am)This response pretty much assumes the others didn’t exist past about #9–
What about making the Volt’s software re-flashable? i.e., GM can include a USB port or a USB-to-Volt cable or something. Seems like it might be a good idea for a couple of reasons:
1) Uncharted software territory for GM (far as I know), so I would expect glitches, and being able to fix it at home would substantially outweigh having to go to the dealership.
2) Tuning opportunities, much like in gas cars when someone will chip their engines. Perhaps not so much for power, but maybe for more efficiency?
3) Cool feature
There would likely be substantial obstacles to overcome before this could all happen, but it would be a pretty neat thing to do.
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May 30th, 2008 (9:42 am)#133 Statik
Again you are probably correct. Don’t worry about the long responses. It takes longer responses sometimes to explain thing better.
#135 dbK
Don’t expect to see a USB port on the Volt. How many flash drives do you think would come up missing? You do not have to have a USB flash drive to be able to update the memory of a computer in a vehicle or in other devices. All you need is controlling software and a way to gain access. GM provides access with the OnStar and software will be abundant on the future vehicles.
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May 30th, 2008 (9:45 am)#135 dbK
I did not address the uncharted territory part of your post. It is not uncharted. If you take your car in to a dealer and it requires an update, it can be done now. It is being done now. Not often, but it happens. You may not be told by the dealer, because most people do not think of their vehicles as a computer controlled device.
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May 30th, 2008 (11:08 am)#64 noel park
You just dated yourself, and that’s Joe Btfsplk, pronounced “phbbbbbbt” in the raspberry or Bronx cheer style, according to Al Capp.
Yeah, he’s a iconic model for me, too, in the tradition of Sad Sack.
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May 30th, 2008 (12:42 pm)#134 Statik:
I was referencing another poster who asked some Toyota design engineers what they were doing about PHEV and per him “they gave a grin and said no comment”
I misunderstood some of your posts. It sounded like you were drawing nightmare scenarios long term for the US Economy, particularly the manufacturing base. That was the thrust of my infrastructure argument. I live in an area of light industrial manufacturing that engages in very little export so we are always the first down on a turn and the first up when we come out of it….we aren’t anywhere near out of this economic downturn and it is getting worse. However, things will level out as some businesses are now looking at manufacturing in this area products that moved out of the US a long time ago. Part of it is the unreliability of Chinese products, manufacturing, and contracts.
I agree with all your points. The crunch for GM is how long they can put off the pension and healthcare bogey. I do believe the E-REV platform is going to be a big shot in their arm to where they may be able to avoid the worst. The upshot is, they have to ride out 3-5 years. Not a fan of GM since they forced my family business under but I am a fan of the Volt and its technology so I hope they are able to pull it off.
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May 30th, 2008 (3:04 pm)Just read this on the message board at GM on yahoo!
220 miles on a charge!
MAKES SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FIRST OF ALL LITHIUM BATTERIES WEIGH LESS THAN THE NICKLE-METAL-HYDRIDE BATTERIES…
SECOND, WITH THE NEW AND STRONGER ELECTRIC MOTORS, TESLA GETS 220 MILES TO A CHARGE RIGHT NOW!! AND DOESN’T NEED A GASOLINE BACK-UP ENGINE, LIKE THE VOLT!!
THIRD, YOU GET MORE AMPS-PER-HOUR WITH THE LITHIUM BATTERIES!!!
READ THIS: http://WWW.TESLAMOTORS.COM
ITS HERE RIGHT NOW TOO!!!
GM, BUY ONE AND PULL IT APART, AND SEE HOW ITS MADE, THEN RE-TOOL!!!!!!
(((((((((((((((((ASAP)))))))))))))))))))
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May 30th, 2008 (10:04 pm)#140, jdb:
I don’t want to pay the $80k that Teslas go for.
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May 31st, 2008 (6:08 am)#132 nasaman thanks for the details about Onstar
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May 31st, 2008 (9:38 am)Working in the software industry, I have a pretty good feel for some of the issues GM would face when it comes to software updates. There are really 2 kinds of updates: 1) Fixes and 2)Upgrades.
For fixes, field installation would seem to be a good idea – you would want to get critical fixes out as soon as possible, to avoid problems (the term ‘Blue Screen of Death’ takes on a totally different meaning when it comes to automotive software!). You would also want the software to have a lot of built in self-safety capabilities – as a simple example, you would want multiple safety levels to ensure when you ease up on the accelerator, the vehicle stops accelerating, or if you slam on the breaks (for a light that is turning red), then hit the accelerator (because you won’t stop in time), it does the right things, and you make it through the intersection safely.
For upgrades, I would think they should be done in a more controlled environment, maybe connected to a diagnostic simulator to run the vehicle through a series of tests to ensure the computer and software will do the right things, and sure everything is working as expected – kind of like getting a oil change.
I would also imagine that GM will want to put between-vechicle communications in these things. Having the ability to know that the Volt 5 cars up from you is breaking, so you (or the car) should start breaking too, would be kind of cool – or knowing that the Volt 5 or 10 cars up is skidding around on black ice, so you would slow down ASAP before hitting the black ice, would be awesome!
Drive by wire is an incredible challenge, and will also offer some incredible possiblities for more automated vehicle capabilities – depending on how far the manufacturers want to take it, and how much the public is willing to acccept.
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May 31st, 2008 (11:51 pm)Rather than worrying about megawatt charging capabilities, consider that you are going somewhere with your car. Charging capability at your destination is simple, cheap and will happen. Hotels will certainly provide a place to plug in once there is a need.
EV1 caused Holiday Inns to install their expensive charging stations. Motels in northern climes already provide outlets for block heaters. Outlets are available most everywhere. Many charging stations were set up in Cal- some solar powered.
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Mar 21st, 2009 (4:32 pm)i love Lil Wayne!!
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