AND 
Chevy Volt on the NBC Nightly News With Brian Williams
Considering the current national gas and oil price crisis, media outlets can’t seem to discuss the topic enough. This has led to a break for GM and the Chevy Volt. As readers here have pointed out, the Volt was featured on a segment on tonight’s broadcast of the NBC Nightly news.
View it here.
Neilson ratings suggests that the audience for this broadcast is roughly 8 to 9 million viewers.
The segment kept the message clear with a little stock footage and an interview with GM exec Robert Kruse.
Anyone coming to this site from seeing the Volt on the news, welcome. This is the place where we who are extremely interested in getting this car on the road convene to analyze, discuss, and contribute to its development. Be sure to read our FAQ.
We review relevant topics on a daily basis, and if your very interested, join our waiting list.
148 Responses to “Chevy Volt on the NBC Nightly News With Brian Williams”
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May 27th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Excellent!
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May 27th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
I agree, it was a great, straight-forward article – no detectible bias of one solution over another.
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May 27th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
A compact car for as much as $45,000 is still a stretch. We’ll see. I’ll wait awhile longer if that’s the price. $35,000 was my price point.
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May 27th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I agree the price needs to be better but they will still sell all they can build even at 40K for a while until massive ramp up and production is achieved.
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May 27th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Nice segment. Still, GM trots out the test Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicle. First and last item seen in the segment. A short discussion is on where to get the hydrogen (fueling station), not how do we produce the hydrogen and deal with it’s issues. The battery/gasoline car is so here now, and affordable. Hydrogen is way out there, so far out, its a distracting diversion from what can be done in the present. To bad GM didn’t have any advanced previous generation/updated electrics (EV1) or Volt mules for them to test drive in front of the cameras.
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May 27th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Oh sure. $45,000. for a small Chevy. I’ll keep my Mercedes and pay the high cost of gas. Next month it’ll be $60,000. By 2010 who knows how much it’ll be. I paid cash for the MB and would pay cash for the Volt, but come on, it’s a Chevy. This is a joke, right? Error in reporting? I hope not.
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May 27th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
First release of 10-20K Volts, yes they’ll be able to charge $40-50K, and they will ALL sell out. The second year is where it will really count… and count I will on this one. This is where GM will need to really focus on a volume push and make the Volt available to the masses. The price will come down and the bugs will be fixed and THIS year, not year ONE, will be the determining year for the Volt. It will be the start of proliferation that will signal the age of the EV as the future of personal transportation.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
#6 No offense intended…paying cash or not Mercedes is at the bottom of the list for reliability. I have friends and family that own them and they are in the shop MUCH more than GM vehicles.
Put your Benz next to a ZR1 600 horse Vette or even it’s little Brother ZO6 and your Benz will be running home with it’s tail lights between its legs. Benz is in no way what it once was.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Regardless of the price of Volt 1.0, the future versions of the Volt will cost less and less and be able to travel on the battery further and further.
Not to mention if gas does climb to $6.00+/gallon, the public outcry for subsidized Volts will be enormous, and will be impossible for the government to ignore.
In a democracy, when the people demand something it is very hard for the government to refuse it.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
#8 No offense taken. I guess I’m one of the lucky ones. Never had a problem with my MB. Then again, I’ve read countless reviews of the vettes and they don’t climb too high on the reliability ladder. But they do look pretty.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
I will buy a 3rd generation Prius before I will spend 45k on a Volt.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I own 3 Buick Regals. All were bought used, all are incredibly reliable now with all three over 100,000 miles each. One approaching 200,000. Very good quality at bargain prices thanks to those who don’t know about the “Legendary Buick quality.” It isn’t a legend. MB, I’d agree, with the Volt falling into the Chevy brand, I don’t see $45,000 holding long. They’ll need to reposition once the “I gotta have one” type buyers are no longer in line. A compact car this is.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Volt Nation, I am a die hard. Was counting on a great American car, American-made, American-fueled, but $45,000 is a hit. Toyota will win the war again when they offer subsidized prices early on again and rain down on this parade.
If true, $45K, I’m going to convert one of my Buick Regals to a 100 mile range car for $20,000. I love the Buick brand, and I just want to get off Oil. Oil ruined my life for more than 20 years in the military. We susidized the entire International community by protecting the oil lanes alone. American taxpayers real cost for a gallon of gas, military costs included, borne not by China in particular, $10/gallon estimated to date.
GM can win the war by launching aggressively with 100,000 sales annually in mind at least beginning in the 2nd year and beyond.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
#12
I agree with you. I bought my Buick Regal in 2002 (2001) model with 27000 miles from Hertz Car Sales and now have 110000 miles with never a single repair aside from 2 brake jobs.
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May 27th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
#10 Mark, I hope this link works. Watch the display break 200 MPH on the Chevy ZR1. Center knee height display.
By the way I love many Benz vehicles! Just wanted to give Chevy some well deserved credit. Not trying to hijack the thread but most car guys here will like this.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ZR%21+video&hl=en&sitesearch=#
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May 27th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Hm, I notice Nissan’s Ghosn got an 8 min segment on CNBC compared to the 3 min spot featuring GM… Still, it’s a good start.
I do hate hearing the $45k price floated, however. There’s no way that price is near justified for a Volt– even $35k would be a stretch (before incentives).
Anyway, exposure is a great thing, and GM can use all the positive press it can get… Cheers, all!
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May 27th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Take a deep breath, NBC pulled the $45,000 figure entirely out of their asses.
Rumor has it that GM wants the tax credit to get the beast under $30,00. The proposed tax credit is in the range of $5,000-$7,000.
So even if there’s no tax credit (HIGHLY unlikely by 2010) we’re looking at $35,000-$37,000.
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May 27th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
First off Gm want’s the car under $30,000 dollars, they have said before that the batteries are the main cost. There trying to get the cost down on the batteries.
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:00 am
Does anybody know what the batteries cost? So how can anybody know what the car is going to cost? It is on the Delta 2 Platforum.
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Grizzly…good points. I hope GM doesn’t shoot itself in the foot by overpricing the Volt. And if its got a lot of bugs it could go the way of the Firenza.
GM should realize that even with gas at $10 bucks a gallon you can buy very economical gas cars a lot cheaper and save money. Some of the small Japanese hybrids are getting pretty close to 40 mpg which would be a lot of commutes for the average driver (about 3 or 4 years worth) before you would start saving money with the Volt and by then there’ll be other companies making them a lot cheaper and perhaps better.
If they overprice the Volt I’ll be waiting for the competition to produce competitive models, which won’t be too long after the Volt rolls out.
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:40 am
The VW Polo, not yet sold in the U.S, gets 80 miles diesel.
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Lyle , I have known for years that the Volt is going to happen , For totally greedy reasons , please start just bloging on the nev. news .. GM stock is about to hit historic lows and I would love to pick up a few thousands shares @ mins $10 , I’m not a Doc.(with your million buck income) just a simple auto tech, and your little web site is really derailling my retirement dreams . So You have Won , nasaman , grizzly, jeff , buckwheat, sleep well tonight you have won too , go way please I’m on my knees riding GM back to 65 bucks a share is all i have left, GO AWAY GET A LIFE , please join me and watch GM stock hit alltime lowes in the next 12months ,then buy ,buy buy, . think about it , Gm stock aver. over 45 buck over 40years. today it hit a 30 year low just like 78. Oh yeah I’m a simple minded red neck from KY that bought aapl at 9.89 in 94, Please Go away ,
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:46 am
The Volt wouldn’t be $40k in is first year.
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Now if GM can make a midsize car (I’m too tall to spend $35K+ on an uncomfortable car) with more room for battery in lieu of some of the trunk space and the 12 gal tank liek on the Volt, then I would concider forking over $45K.
Right now, I’m watching the developments of the electric car and battery technology with a keen eye. There are 3 selling points I need fixed before I fork over big money for the car:
1) A midsize because of my size
2a) 100 miles per charge on PHEV or
2b) 200 miles per chagre on midsize all electric
3a) At least 1 report that can state Li ion batteries can last 5+ years or
3b) A report stating the batteries will be cheap enough to replace in 3-5 years
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:59 am
I think my last post is a little unrealistic for a midsize car and I can’t edit the post, so let me correct it:
2a) 80 miles per charge on PHEV or
2b) 150 miles per chagre on midsize all electric
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:55 am
Don’t you just love “trial balloons” ?
Ever played poker ? GM is just trying to see how high a price they can get away with, and still move product. I agree with #3 – $35000 is my price point. Above that, I’ll have to wait until the die-hard Volt fans pony-up their $45000, and see what GM will do to move the remaining unsold Volts.
Remember, Gm is still fishing for government tax incentives. The higher the incentives go, the higher the Volt’s price will be. Nothing is set in stone yet.
Still waiting for my Volt powered riding lawn mower.
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May 28th, 2008 at 5:08 am
# 25 Terry K……How about the Electric Ox ….rider with a 44″ front mower deck ….
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May 28th, 2008 at 5:26 am
#7 Grizzly said “First release of 10-20K Volts, yes they’ll be able to charge $40-50K, and they will ALL sell out” I agree. 20K California moonbeams will buy them (some of those moonbeams are pretty smart). Then the car will have an unshakable reputation.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:09 am
has anyone seen the video on you tube titled electric surge tech???
check it out , if true changes everything for electric car as far as practical power and would make the electric car kill the combustion engine – can also be used to power homes individually and take you off the grid. IF TRUE!!!!! based on magnets generating more power than it takes in. Any one with knowledge on this topic please comment.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:17 am
#5 LyleL
I agee with you that hydrogen is way out there; it will be years before it becomes viable as fuel for a vehicle, at least in the U.S. But, I really don’t see it as a distracting diversion at all.
It will take many years of research & development to solve the problems related to hydrogen extraction, storage, transportation, etc. This research can & probably will proceed in parallel with development of the Volt and other E-REV vehicles.
Take a look at the InnoaTek’s microreactor. Is it a possible solution to the hydrogen extraction, storage and transportation issues? I don’t know; it will take people a whole lot smarter than I on these matters! But, I strongly encourage all the research & development by GM and others into the hydrogen fuel concept.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Ernie, I have not seen the surge tech video. But if it claims that some kind of magnet-based system generates “more power than it takes in,” then it can not be true as it would violate some really fundamental laws of physics — i.e., conservation of energy.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:29 am
We always seem to end up back at the pricing issue, which is moot until GM puts out a pricing schedule.
At this point, what I want from GM is a super reliable vehicle, with different trim/option levels for the different buyers waiting for this vehicle, and most importantly, available in quantity as soon as possible.
Pricing will take care of itself. If the sticker price is too expensive, they will only sell a few, and then the prices will drop to either move inventory, or because of competition from the other manufacturers.
It is just that November, 2010 seems like a long time away….
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:39 am
If they can get the Volt to sell less than $30K, I’m out.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:52 am
#30 – Jim I says:
“If the sticker price is too expensive, they will only sell a few, and then the prices will drop to either move inventory, or because of competition from the other manufacturers.”
What other manufacturers? No other major manufacturer has even announced a gas/electric car with 40 mile all electric range. There are no other concept vehicles. It doesn’t look like anyone else is working on this.
If the price is too expensive, they will sell less, but they will sell all they make in the first year. The waiting list almost guarantees that.
In order to get the costs down, GM will need to ramp up the volume.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:59 am
MDDave – thanks for response.
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Let’s not forget about Tesla Motors – all-electric, high-performance, and, for their first round of production, $100k … however, a $40,000 sedan is scheduled for late 2010-2011 timeframe, with a LOT better performance stats than the GM-VOLT. (250-mile range, 0-60 in 4.5 sec’s., 3-hr recharge time)
GM-VOLT will have to seriously up their game, or lower their price to compete with this.
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:17 am
#12 jbfalaska
You have owned 3 Buick Regals? How close are you to breaking the Guiness Book of World records for oldest person alive?
I didn’t think your even allowed to own a ‘Buick Regal’ until you hit 65. Then I know for sure you have to keep it in ‘good condition’ for like 15 years until people start saying, “Hey, amazing, that old Buick Regal is in good condition still”
Generally once this statement is repeated 25 times, the owner dies and his oldest grandkid gets to drive it to high school for about 3 months before they drive into totally into the ground.
Of course, this gets that one ‘weird uncle’ all upset because he was really ‘in a bad way’ (mostly because of his a. drinking b. laziness c. gambling) and could have really ‘used’ that car, not like is brother and his kids who have always had everything on a silver spoon…stupid Dave…and his stupid kids.
/wait…what was I talking about again?
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:40 am
If GM does the smart thing, they won’t price it at $45k for the die-hards. They’ll accept the early-on loss like Toyota did and start a craze that will rival past “gotta-have” crazes.
Elmo, those talking owl things, and the Prius will have to move aside.
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:48 am
People still don’t really get the bigger picture.
Even if the gas price stays where it is you’ll save $2500/yr, if you’re an average driver. In four years a $35k car is a $25k car. Even if you don’t care about the future of the country, oil wars or global pollution it makes sense.
The Tesla is a pipe dream. Their roadster isn’t made by Tesla, it’s made by Lotus. So Tesla has to make a new car from scratch. Their battery system might well have some good stats, but that $16k package only lasts five years. People won’t buy the Tesla because they have a 250 mile range. The Volt’s range is limitless, just like a normal car.
The competition for Volt is the 3rd generation Prius. I think by they time that comes out the 1st generation batteries are going to expose the weaknesses we know they have. Right now the best Prius gets 100 mpg using all techniques to conserve.
The Volt is going to be infinite for a lot of people that use those same techniques, and it’s going to last as long as a normal car with less maintenance.
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:54 am
What are the chances that we early enthusiasts who signed up for the waiting list will get the first few (thousand) Volts off the line and be able to re-sell them on Ebay for a profit. a little arbitrage perhaps.
If the price is 45 I can’t afford it. But if I could resell it on ebay for 55 then I’d do it, wait until the 2nd year (with lower prices and bugs worked out, plus maybe an added feature or two) and buy in year 2.
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May 28th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Since cost is such a popular topic, and we really won’t know the selling price until GM releases it, I decided to look at some of the factors that affect the price.
I will start with a base Cobalt, that sells for about 15k. It includes an engine and transmission. The Volt will have a smaller engine, but it will have a turbocharger and generator, so I will consider these two systems a wash from a cost perspective.
Next, we need to add the E-Flex system, traction motor, power electronics, cooling, etc. I will estimate this to be 5 to 10 k (low range/high range). The big ticket item, the battery pack, has been identified as a $3500 item by some, and $10,000 in other posts, so I will use 4-10k as the range. In addition, GM has talked about the need to include battery warranty costs in their pricing, so I will assume 50% of the battery pack cost, or 2-5k.
The final major cost that has been discussed is the development costs. If GM is spending $500 million for development of the Volt, I will assume these costs are spread over 10 years.
Now comes the big question, what will be the production volume? For a low end, I will use 10,000 units per year, and for the upper end, 100,000 per year (note, GM could easily exceed 100,000 by 2015). Therefore, development costs over 10 years are 5 k for low volume, and 0.5 k for high volume. So what can we expect for a price range? See the tabulation below:
Low Volume High Volume
Base Car 15 k 15 kE-Flex 10 k 5 kBatt Pack 10 k 4 kWarranty 5 k 2 kDevelop. 5 k 0.5 k
Total 45 k 26.5 k
So there is a crude attempt to demonstrate the variablility in pricing at this stage of the game.
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May 28th, 2008 at 8:13 am
#37 greg
Your best to not try to do the ‘payback’math. The viable angles are:
a) it’s cool
b) treehugger
On this basis, the Volt has no competition, therefore that should be the platform it should be sold on.
EPA RATINGS of ’similar’ platforms
Camry (H) 34MPG –$1,671
Civic (H) 42 MPG –$1,353
Corolla 31MPG –$1,856
Jetta (D) 34MPG –$1,985
**Based on 15,000 miles, (EPA study that shows the average American drives 15K a year 45%highway, 55%city–hence the standardized testing number)
The Volt cannot do all 15K all-electric in a year without averaging more than 1 charge per day, which is unrealistic. Estimated splits for the Volt would be 2/3 electric 1/3 gas.
Volt 10,000 miles/electric = $250
Volt 5,000 miles/gas(assumes 50MPG) =$400
Total cost = $650
Savings range of $700-$1,300. Unfortunately, we are talking about cost of ownership…almost all of that savings will be lost when you go to insure your vehicle. VOLT>Corolla
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May 28th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Item Low Volume High Volume
Base Car 15 15
E-Flex 10 5
Battery Pack 10 4
Warranty 5 2
Develop. 5 0.5
Total 45 k 26.5 k
Let’s see if this tabulation has better formatting.
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May 28th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Fantastic spot….wished it had even more airtime.
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May 28th, 2008 at 8:31 am
#41 BillR
You missed a item: Profit.
GM needs this to be it’s cash cow when it goes ‘high volume’. I don’t see many other cars in GM’s lineup with a steady profit future…other than the Malibu. (Cadillac brand, which is fabulous, will continue to make great margins…but overall sales will more than likely continue to deteriorate).
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May 28th, 2008 at 9:08 am
#43 Statik,
Of course, the base car has a selling price of 15 k, so that already includes some profit. Who says the other numbers don’t include some profit as well?
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May 28th, 2008 at 9:14 am
“Savings range of $700-$1,300. Unfortunately, we are talking about cost of ownership…almost all of that savings will be lost when you go to insure your vehicle. VOLT>Corolla”
Where did you get that from? I was quoted $1,200 a year for a Dodge Viper. How could a Volt be so much?
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May 28th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Right now in Central Alberta, Canada gas is going for $ 5.20 per US Gal… so $3.50 would be a bargain here… GM … Let’s hustle up and get that Volt out now…
Price ??? It does matter… I want one. and I want it soon..
However… if the “other guys” are beating you in the milage game and are 30% less in cost… you know where I will be spending my money…
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May 28th, 2008 at 9:32 am
It was nice to see the spot about this w/ BWilliams, although all this talk about Hydrogen is way more of a pipe dream than what Tesla is doing…I like the idea of Hydrogen powered vehicles as much as anyone of us who are sick and tired of 100%combustion…but its just too far away from viability. I know BMW (my current driving machine) is focused on Hydrogen and because of that I’m all about the Volt & I’ve never owned a GM car but I’m all about the concpet here people!
All this talk about pricing, tax incentives, yearly gas savings, cost of insurance… blah, blah, blah… I for one just dont care to hear all the speculation, I’m buying into the concept and cannot wait to see how this plays out.
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May 28th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Does anyone know anything about the Volkswagen 1L? Supposedly, it gets 235 mpg. Digg says that VW plans on getting it to market in 2010.
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May 28th, 2008 at 10:03 am
#45 Vincent
Wow $1,200 for a Viper? Is that a new one too? Clearly you have the best insurance company of all time! I’m sure the average American could just pick up the phone and get this deal!
I conceed that absolutely none of the $700-$1,300 gas savings will be lost to insurance then based on this revelation! I bet we will even pay less insurance for a Volt, given the fact that I’m sure the insurance company’s ‘local mechanics’ they like to send their cars to for repairs will be able to work on it much easier.
Just curious, what are your stats and what insurance company was that?
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May 28th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Hi Statik,
It was for a Viper GTS coupe 450 Horse with 12,000 miles equating to about a $50,000 insurance risk coupled with a massive horse power to weight ratio. It surprises many on the insurance prices.
Perhaps due to being a low use pleasure vehicle. State Farm gave the quote. It was the same as my old Corvette I had built to 450 Horse. My driving record is very good.
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May 28th, 2008 at 10:31 am
I could see insurance costing no more than $1,200 for 6 months on a new Viper, and possibly $1,200 for a full year. I only pay about $800 a year for full coverage on my 2003 BMW X5. Of course, I have a good driving record and discounts for having other policies with the same company.
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May 28th, 2008 at 10:55 am
For Ernie:
In this time of energy crises there is a great desire, as there has been since the 17th century, to produce power in such a way that less is consumed than is produced. The Encyclopedia Britannica (1965) contains the following observation: “Whereas formerly the perpetual motion engine was usually a mechanical arrangement of weights, wheels and water buckets, or such like, which did work without a supply of energy, today the form under which the invention is presented is usually an electrical one. Frequently the vendor or inventor makes no claim to create energy out of nothing, a point to which he directs special attention, The popular confusion between work and power, and between volts and amperes and electrical energy render it easy to delude—”
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:17 am
GM and other auto companies pushing hydrogen fueled cars are whistling in the dark. Hydrogen infrastructure is not here today and will not be in place in 25 years. It is too costly. We would still be locked into going to a “filling station” to get our fuel for everyday commuting, etc. Our best “filling station” is in our garage/carport using an electric cord. Hydrogen vehicles will require more maintenance, hence dealers will be able to continue their expensive service centers. The oil companies will become energy companies supplying us hydrogen at their current service stations and will still control your supply of fuel. It is the wrong fuel for our fuel independence. Electric vehicles is the best way.
GM must produce the Volt under $30,000 to be competitive with Toyota, Nissan and Honda. All three of these companies will be in the market place with their own versions of clean fuel vehicles. If it takes a government subsidy to get the price where most of can afford a Volt, then I say take the money from the subsidies paid to the oil companies and apply it ONLY to American owned clean energy companies for the first three to five years. Japan is going to subsidize Toyota, Nissan and Honda. There is absolutely no sense in the American taxpayers adding more subsidy money to that already done by the Japanese government.
I realize Toyota, Nissan and Honda (and others foreign companies) have U.S. production plants employing American workers. But that is not the same as an American owned company employing American workers.
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:24 am
One more episode in the never ending soap opera of the price trial balloons. Ugh!
#37 Statik:
Did you ever see a GNX? One of the fastest cars on the road in its day. Alas, it been all down hill since then.
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I hate to burst some of your bubbles about insurance cost for the Volt. We are talking about the same insurance companies that have been overcharging for home, auto and life insurance for decades, aren’t we? I expect to see the insurance companies come up with various reasons to charge premium rates for the Volt. I have State Farm for auto and home insurance, but would not be surprised to see the insurance industry, in general, take advantage of the Average Joe who can’t wait to get his hands on a new fuel effecient, electric vehicle like the Volt. The Average Joe won’t let a little thing like a premium rate for auto insurance stand in his way of owning one of these babies. Will he? The insurance companies will realize this and will take advantage of it.
Or I being to pessimistic?
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:27 am
If you’re going to throw insurance into the mix, why not also include the $28 oil change every 3,000 miles. For 3yr lease 12,000 mile/yr, total oil maintenance is about $336. I don’t think the ICE on the Volt will need an oil change every 3,000 miles. Maybe every 6 months, and possibly using less oil. After all the Volt ICE will run at a set RPM – no redlining.
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:28 am
#55 N Riley:
Well said.
I have been trying to help with the cheerleading for the Volt ever since I found GM-Volt.com. Even so, GM is going to lose me if they keep up these games with the price. Better they should just keep their mouths shut.
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:30 am
Or I being to pessimistic?
Should have been: Or am I being too pessimistic?
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Oil changes every 3,000 miles is a crock. Read your auto manual and you will find it says around 5,000 to 6,000 miles unless you are in a very dusty environment or pulling excessive loads. The 3,000 mile oil change is cooked up by the quick change oil centers to get you into them twice as fast as you need to do so. The dealers go along with that because it gives them more income. Read your manuals and follow their recommendations.
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:54 am
For those of you that are gripping about the “maybe” high price for the Chevy Volt I would like to ask:
How many of you have written your Federal and State Reps to erg them to make laws that will give the public and the automakers help/ incentives to transition to EV production and buying? You know they give tax incentives to many less worthy subjects.
Please note that when I leased my GM EV1 back in 1997-2001, I got a $3200 income tax credit from the State of California for driving and paying for a ZERO EMISSION vehicle. My California DMV fee was $0. EACH YEAR! Californian’s were serious about tile-pipe emissions and we put our money where our mouth was.
You have to look at the whole when it comes to us changing over to non-hydrocarbon burning transportation. Not just the price of the car and the price of gas.
If we start driving electric cars and charge them by renewable electric generation, wind, solar, geothermal, etc. the air would be much cleaner. Our healthcare costs would be effected for the better. Less asthma in kids for one example. The city would be much quieter. Maybe not spend taxes on oil wars. And you won’t spend your money and gas, diesel, oil changes, spark-plugs, water-pumps, fuel-injection, mufflers, radiators, DMV smog-checks, No carbon-monoxide for suicide attempts, the list goes on and on. Think about all the moving parts you don’t have in a EV.
But here’s the big thing that needs to change first. We repair our roads using tax money from the sale of gasoline!
We have to find another source for that repair money or our “leaders” will continue to do nothing to help us have cheap EVs. It’s a hugh conflict of interest for them. We the people, as of now, need to buy gas to pay for the roads and bridges that we use. We have to change that system ASAP.
So please, tell them. Tell the new President.
It looks to me that GM is making a very good faith effort here.
But we need to make it all work too.
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
To #57, N Riley
Insurance companies are in business to make money, so they must ensure that they make a profit from most of their customers — and rightly so. As a counterbalance to that fact, Insurance companies are plentiful and in intense competition with one another, which tends to drive the price of insurance down. Initially, there may be some padding and variability in the cost of insuring a Volt because the insurance companies may not be fully aware of the costs involved in insuring one. In the long term, though, I don’t see any reason why the dynamic for insurance on a Volt would be any different than insurance for any other $30,000 car.
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
MDDave #63
I hope you are right. I agree insurance companies have to make money. Insurance companies are one of the most profitable companies in America. When profits take a hit, they raise rates on all rate payers. They spread the cost of high insurance risks to all of us to allow those people to be able to afford insurance. Everyone assumes the cost for the worst offenders. I am a good driver with a very good record. I pay more in insurance premium than I do for gasoline yearly. At least I did. The arrow has turned now to make gasoline more expensive. I want the Volt as much as anyone on this forum. I want it to come soon and be great. I want GM to be successful. I want the USA to get off the oil pipeline to the middle east and to Chavez. And I want low cost insurance. Doesn’t everybody?
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
I’ll have to look at my records but I don’t remember any problems insuring my EV1 and I have friends that still drive Rav4s EVs and I have never heard of insurance problems. You need liability insurance and collision insurance for a financed car. collision is based on the cost of fixing the car.
It’ll be OK. Really
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May 28th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Lyle-Stalik -Nasaman-Rashiid:
As most of ya’ll know I am from south Texas and in the oil business. I was sent the following link just now. I would like to share this with you and anyone that has the time to watch this. It is lengthly.
Please go to : http://www.video.google.com then click on the video presention by Pastor Lindsey Williams. Topic: The Energy Non Crisis.
This really gives food for thought: Your Thoughts?
Tom
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May 28th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road ASAP! I’m still praying for a surprise 2009 release.
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May 28th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
In Sept 2005 I purchased a first year production vehicle (2006 Chevy HHR) and insured it. I was charged a rate that I thought was pretty high for the vehicle and was told by the insurance company that much of the premium was established because it was a first year production and that theft and repair statistics had not been established on the vehicle. They basically had to cover their a$$e$. Over the almost three years of ownership my premium has dropped somewhat.
When it comes to profitability of insurance companies I remember reading somewhere that much of the revenue that is generated actually comes from the investment markets. A few years ago insurance companies took a big hit when the markets were weak. This resulted in an increase in premiums for many people (especially new customers.) This might not be true for the US insurance companies but I think it’s fairly accurate for Canadian insurance.
I would not doubt if insurance prices are pretty inflated when this vehicle first hits the market.
Also, in response to Jeff’s comment in post 62 about carbon monoxide being non existent in these vehicles for the purpose of suicide that’s only the case if the vehicle is running off the battery and not the ICE and also if someone wanted to attempt suicide they might be able to find a high current wire under the hood that they could rip out and zap themselves with.
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May 28th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
#67 Tagamet
If GM pulled out all the stops and indeed surprised the industry with a 2009 release it would be a coup unlike any other in history. In appropriate quantities, it would turn the heads on the competition like nothing else ever could. My deposit is itching to leave my hands.
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May 28th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Tom M;
Just a thought. I believe we can do better than fossil fuel-based transportation, given the technological strides of the past 50 years. I also believe in “Buy low, sell high”. So if we create a new technology that reduces our need for fossil fuel which, up until now we have been buying cheaply, I don’t see the down side to having a huge supply of the stuff we can sell to other countries at a premium. Why burn it ourselves if we can sell it for $200.00 a barrel? Not to mention that there might just be some truth to the global warming story….
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May 28th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
To #66
Oil is old-school. It pollutes. You burn it up and it’s gone and you need more.
Our Sun is way more powerful than all the oil on earth.
And YOU can make your OWN power from the Sun and other renewable sources.
My neighbor has a 9000 watt solar array on his house and drives a 1997 Toyota RAV4 electric SUV. He doesn’t buy electricity or gas.
Soon I will put in a solar array too. The State of Californian will reimburse me up to 50% of my costs to put in the solar array.
The Feds should do the same. Ask them to.
Exploring and drilling for oil takes time we don’t have anymore and gives us just a tease of energy for a short time. We’ve only use oil for about a hundred years of human history.
I’m sorry if not using things like coal and oil will hurt some people’s livelihood but we all need to be forward looking.
My Great Great Grandpa owned the biggest livery stable in my home town just as cars came out. He bought trucks as soon as he could.
Instead of drilling for oil, install solar arrays! Every home and business will want one soon.
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
What a fantastic news cast. I can see only one thing wrong with it though, the Volt was not parked in my garage. I hope Chevrolet does not try and bail themselves out with a super high price on this car. Volume versus profit would benefit the whole country and each buyer.
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Tom M #66
I listened to the youtube.com presentation by Mr. Williams. I don’t know what to think about it. Somethings he said rings true, but others – I just don’t know. I do know that Brazil has recently discovered one one of the largest oil fields in the world off their Atlantic coast. I also know we have tremendous oil fields off America’s coasts and in the Gulf of Mexico. We are not allowed to drill off our coast except in certain areas and those areas are more restricted every year. I believe there is enough oil left in the ground to satisfy the world’s needs for the next hundred years or more. But, I also know that we need to move away from oil as fast as we can.
GO GM GO VOLT….
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Noel #59
I feel like you. But hope is that is a misquote, they happen so often, keep courage, Noel, GM-Volt needs you.
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
TomM #66 That was a facinating and thought provoking video, from begining to end.
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Question:
Once the volt is for sale what is to stop GM from putting the same technology into even smaller commuter cars? Maybe the volt will never sell for under $30k but can’t they come out with a 2 seater commuter car that would get 70 miles per charge and cost in the low 20k range?
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
noel park #59
I am not sure GM is the one playing with the price of the Volt. I think our fears of a high price for the Volt leads us to read into a story more than was intended. Plus, some people have an interest in quoting sources just to stir up trouble. Let’s just wait and see. Each of us must make up our minds based on our on conditions and we will do so when the Volt is available for purchasing. Our needs today will not be the same needs we will face in 2010 or 2011. We do need contributors like you, nasaman and a few others to stay with us and see it out to the end. I count on you and the others to keep us on target and to keep things moving. I am looking forward to having a Volt parked in my drive way one day. I know you are too.
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
cburk #76
I believe Lutz has discussed possibly an electric commuter car coming after the Volt reaches full production. All battery – no ICE. Sounds great for around town. A real city car.
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
#67 Tagamet, #69 Kevin R:
I can only agree.
Regular is now $4/gal in LA. At the announced present rate of progress, it will be at least 2011 – 3 years – before the Volt gets into the showrooms in any substantial quantity. What are they going to sell in the meantime? If Toyota, Honda, et al, have given GM a bloody nose up to now, I shudder to think what will happen in the next 3 years.
I believe that it was Speedy who commented the other day on the idea of 1.2 and 1.4 Ecotec engines and belt assisted hybrid systems in Aveos and/or Cobalts. Something like this would certainly help to plug the gaps. I sincerely hope that such things are in progress. We have heard rumors of a 1.4 turbo, evidently for the Cobalt. I wonder what the mileage of such a thing might be?
I believe that you have put your fingers on an existential issue for GM. They need to get products with much better fuel economy into the marketplace as a matter of extreme urgency. If not, the corporation could very conceivably be swept away before products such as the Volt arrive in the market in numbers sufficient to turn the tide.
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May 28th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I would be happy just to have my tried and true EV1 back.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
#74 Jean-Charles Jacquemin, #77 N Riley:
Well you do me too much credit, but your kind words are deeply appreciated.
I can only return the compliment, both to you, to and all of these faithful bloggers, who clearly have the future of GM at heart.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
The car of the future (volt?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN0LQJLabqA
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
If people don’t want to pay over $35K for “just a Chevy”, I suppose GM could put a Buick logo on on lt and call it the “Electra”. My Dad had a Buick Electra when I was a kid … ironically it was huge V8 sedan.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
People who keep comparing the Volt to the Prius need to keep in mind that the Volt (based on comments from GM) is also going to be a performance car. People will pay for performance, as Tesla is showing. If a moderately-green low-performance Prius with great gas mileage is worth $25K, then a very-green high-performance Volt with even better mileage is worth $35K. My prediction is that if the Volt is $35K or less, buyers will be complaining about availability, not price.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I wonder if/when OPEC will notice that the world is rapidly pulling away from oil and decide to lower their prices. That’s what happened about 30 years ago. If it does happen, I hope it waits until the Volt (as well as its promised competitors) are a 100% sure thing … even though I hate paying $4/gallon for gas.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
I would like to correct some misinformation about Tesla. They have 3 models in development:
1) Roadster – $100K sports car, 2 passengers, all electric, 250 mile range, designed by Tesla, built by Lotus and Tesla, currently in limited production.
2) Whitestar – $50K sports sedan, 4-5 passengers, all electric, no details on range - probably much less than 250 miles, built in Tesla’s New Mexico plant, currently in final design stages.
3) Bluestar – $30K family sedan, 4-5 passengers, probably a range extended electric vehicle (Tesla calls it REEV), built in Tesla’s New Mexico plant, currently in early design stages.
So the Bluestar is the model that could compete with the Volt, but given Tesla’s delays with the Roadster, the Bluestar probably won’t be out before 2014. Also, Elon Musk has stated that Tesla does not intend to compete with major car makers, but rather to work with them. So if the Volt is successful, then the Bluestar may never get built.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
I was paying $424 a month for my 1997 EV1 and would have paid more. Remember, No DMV fees and a hugh income tax credit and No gas, no maintenance.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
I just watched the video. I won’t pay $45K and won’t buy a Volt until it is priced for the masses and not priced for a niche market.
Under $30K, I’m there. Over $30K I’ll buy a some other hybrid.
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May 28th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
#66 Tom
Interesting video, he has some sound thoughts.
I don’t know about the “you will be paying the national debt through the gas pump part.” Seems to imply the national debt is caused by gas…rather than exasperated by it.
On the whole, having another person pounded the table about the evils of oil…and moreover the national debt, (regardless if it has a very religious undertone), can never be a bad thing, even if he is a little ‘over the top’
I feel much like Rashid above me. The Volt is a great answer to oil dependency, but at $45K it is too steep to make economic sense.
Additionally, the Volt will never be as good on the basis of ‘what is good for the economy/oil dependancy, etc’ as a all EV like the iMiev will be.
The Volt is a fantastic, and more convieniant/practical solution to start the ball rolling and get us away from gas…however, the future is full-time EV. Hopefully Volt 2.0 has a ‘all EV’ option.
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May 28th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I thought a Prius with an extended range pack at $35 was the limit of what I would spend and I am still looking at some of the other vehicles that will be coming out in the next few years. If the volt comes in at over $40 I will look for an import that is less expensive. I would like to buy American, but that is out of my affordability range.
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May 28th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
There should have been three zeros or a “k” after the numbers.
Although I like the Volt I really don’t need a hot rod, what I need is a car that will go 90 miles on a charge (or somehow get a plug at work) and hit highway speeds.
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May 28th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
The world will spin many times and many other competitors will come forth before the Volt is in full production. None of them will match what GM is offering with the Volt. But, they may offer what many people need for the time being. A $30,000 Volt will sell like hot cakes. If you throw in rebates, there will be a LONG waiting list. If the Volt is much more expensive, the lines will be MUCH shorter. GM has a great opportunity to offer the world a new direction. I think they want to do just that. Battery cost is the big question, at this point. They know what it takes to build the body and control computers, etc. The battery cost should not cost any more than todays small V6 or larger 4 cylinder mated to a front wheel transmission. So, if these items off-sets each other, the car should cost about the same as the Chevy Malibu. That is $22,000 to $29,000 or there about. GM should not expect to make more profit on the Volt than they do on the Malibu. I realize they have development cost to recover, but that is a multi-year cost to be applied to their general ledger. They do not expect to recover that in the first few years. More like five to seven years. I think we will be pleased with what GM offers as to price. If not, there is always the competition. I’ll hold my nose and go shopping.
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May 28th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
I am on my sixth Camry since 1978. They are great cars and well made with very good gas mileage. I am planning to drive my 2006 Camry til 2010 at which time I will try the Volt if it sells for $35000 or less. (My Camry cost $20000 and gives me 25/35 mpg). I really want to buy American and I am really pulling for the “moon shot”. It is about time we went for the long-term solution. If GM does their part, I will do mine.
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May 28th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Get me a VOLT that only goes 20 mpc (miles per charge). It’s all i need. Just get me off the gasoline.
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May 28th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I remain skeptical that GM will deliver the Volt on-time (late 2010), but even if they don’t then so what. The demand is so great, and the market has been moving product so slow for several years, the Volt could fall short of expectations in several areas and still be a hit. 30 miles rather than 40 miles. Whatever. Averages 90 MPG rather tnan 120 MPG. Whatever.
Price will be the big one.
A $30K to $35K PHEV Prius versus a $48K Volt. I’m gonna go Prius. If the Volt comes in at $35K to $40K, then I’ll seriously consider it.
The irony abounds that GM had the EV1, they had 4-5 seat stretch versions under development, and even hybrid versions. Now, they appear on the road to building an EV2 in the Volt.
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May 28th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
For $45k, they should stick a caddy badge on it. Seriously. At least then you get some extra prestige with it and it doesn’t cost GM a dime.
Plus, at that cost, I’d really expect over 200hp. The beefier motor and power electronics would hardly be a drop in the bucket at that price, and it’d be more efficient with better regeneration, too. The batteries (especially A123) can already handle crazy amounts of power, so the biggest cost item already has it covered.
Also, I should point out that while we’re all taking about gas prices rising, that is going to pale when the rest of the items in our daily lives start playing catch up. Dow just raised their prices 20% in response to their increased oil based feedstock prices:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080528/bs_nm/dowchemical_dc_3
Hmmm, if the Volt is $30k now then 20% more is $36k. If it’s $35k now, then 20% more is $42k.
Not saying all prices are going to shift that much, but they will certainly shift soon and shift big if the oil prices stay high or go up. By 2010, $45k might actually be cheap! Scary throught.
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May 28th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
The NBC piece said the Volt will use a giant cell phone battery. I’m glad they found a use for the batteries from those giant cell phones; reduce, re-use, recycle!
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May 28th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Dave G #34 The wait list does not guarantee anything!!! At least the first few thousand people signing up did under the impression this car was going to be “comfortably apportioned” under 27K. Lyle never started a new wait list based on $35,000-40,000 / copy so all bets are off. I’d love to see it come to market but will not pay more than 32K OOP with rebate factored in. I am in a van pool & by time Volt comes out there will be some BEV’s out or around the corner for the wife & local commutes. I was in the first 1000 to sign up but will weigh my options & see what supply & demand has to offer. Regardless 2011 will be a very interesting year to be alive for transportation & its future outlook.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Dave G #34
#97 Neutron Flux
Lyle started this site to be a focal point for Volt enthusiasts. He started the ”waiting” list to demonstrate interest in the Volt concept. When I signed on the waiting list, it clearly said it was a non-binding “interest” list. It was clear to me that the Volt’s final specs and price were in flux and I wasn’t committed to anything. I was merely showing support. I have hopes that GM will use the list. But, I doubt that honoring the list will sell the most Volts for GM. GM will roll out the Volt as they see fit. Selected states will see the Volt first. I hope people on the list in the selected states will get some consideration. We would be big promoters.
p.s.; apparently, our 2% female population tried to cast a spell on me. The spell checker caught that.
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
I don’t know if this has been posted yet:
VW and Sanyo teaming up to make batteries….
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080528/AUTO01/805280416/1148/rss25
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
66 TOM M….
Pastor Lindsey is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! There ARE sufficient fossil fuels (oil, natural gas, coal) —probably enough to last several more human generations!!! But they’re too precious to simply BURN UP, because vast numbers of critical exotic substances as well as ordinary textiles & indispensible plastics are derived from these fossil fuels. And mankind CANNOT survive for very many more generations if we keep burning them up, even if we find other raw materials to make these critically-needed chemicals and other materials from! Here’s why…..
Every NASA scientist I know (or know of) who specializes in environmental science is convinced that there’s really no debate about it —the Earth is simply in a CRISIS OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTIONS! …..SO PASTOR LINDSEY IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG TO SAY THAT WE DON’T HAVE A GLOBAL ENERGY CRISIS!!! The crisis is that we have to RAPIDLY develop alternative energy sources —i.e., as President Bush says, “We’re addicted to oil” (and to the other fossil fuels) —and we don’t have much time left to find ways to cure the addiction!!!
BTW, I’ve both met & corresponded with Bob Lutz…. no offense if you read this, Bob, but your view on global warming is simply RECKLESS, IRRESPONSIBLE & ABSOLUTELY WRONG –i.e., “it’s a CROCK”!!! (But I’ll take it all back if you’ll just build us the Volt!)
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Yeah, I caught that too. Good…the technology is already on the way down!
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
PS: If my above post wasn’t strong enough, or if you’d just like to see the result of advanced global warming, go to….
http://www.nasa.gov/phoenix
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May 28th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Price wise I mean, thats great!
Dude, How about editing capability;)
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Finally mainstream news media is beginning to see the potential!
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Getting off oil is the key for us as consumers and for America. I just spent as much into a geothermal heat pump system to replace my oil furnace as I would pay for a Volt, and I’ll do it again to get off oil when I drive and into a Volt. 2010 is a long way away, folks, and by then the price of gas could be $7.00 a gallon. Think running cost, not sticker price.
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May 28th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
102 Nasaman said:
PS: If my above post wasn’t strong enough, or if you’d just like to see the result of advanced global warming, go to….
http://www.nasa.gov/phoenix
I didn’t go to the site, but obviously you’re referring to Mars. That’d be the one without a molten core like Earth? At least they don’t THINK so… I’m not so sure that we can “model” Earth’s climate very accurately, so I’m REALLY uncomfortable with the idea that Mars is a good example to cause us concern.
(that was a great landing for the phoenix though) !
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May 28th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
I have not been here for a few days. If this has already been posted I am sorry.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4265910.html
Take Care
Arch
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May 28th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
RB # 28
“#7 Grizzly said “First release of 10-20K Volts, yes they’ll be able to charge $40-50K, and they will ALL sell out”
I agree.
*** *** *** ***
First year release, and first year proliferation are two different things. Promise the world that if this car came out in 2009 they would be able to sell 30K copies each for $60K no questions asked. It might surprise some people to comprehend that those paying that price (and most probably to them a drop in the bucket) are prepping this vehicle for affordability for the masses.
This is one reason I share with those that say the sooner the better. Maybe not for the same reason though. My reason is that I understand that the initial release will not only be controlled, but will command a high price and that, hard as it is to swallow, is justified. I want this car to succeed, and it is EXPENSIVE to produce.
The second year will be a different story. This will be the time to roll to the masses and really drop the price. This will be when most of us will get our Volts. This is why I think that for the second year release of the Volt, GM should work from the Gm-Volt waiting list.
My two pennies.
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May 28th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
107 Tagamet….
Hey Tag, my field is astrophysics, but not the geophysical side of it. However, I do know that those who specialize in planetary geophysics agree that the tallest volcano in the solar system is on Mars. BTW, there’s also a large contingent of NASA geophysics people who believe Mars once had a much thicker atmosphere as well as LOTS OF WATER, and that global warming is one way to explain what caused it to become the dry, dusty planet it is now. I’m just saying….
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May 28th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
#96 Dave P
The problem with raising prices 20% over the next 18 months or so is the fact that almost without a doubt, most North Americans will not be getting a 20% raise in their paychecks. Executives, maybe. The rest of us, highly improbable. I got a .8% raise this year. .9% last year. The boss is asking us to freeze our pay this year, all the while prices are shooting through the roof all around us. So how does one continue to be part of the middle of the “middle” class? I have paid off all of my debts except my home. But my heating bills over the winter hit $588 for three of those months! And set at 64 degrees no less! If the Volt comes out above $30k and the economy is still tanking or creeping out of recession, many, many people will not be able to afford even thinking about it. I’m saving like a fiend to buy this car but its hurting like hell. The middle class could be in much worse shape in 18 months than we can imagine at this point. Let’s hope not.
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May 28th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Nasaman,
Just last night I watched a NASA production that suggests that the 99% CO2 atmosphere on Mars was likely preceded by a watery world. But the lack of a strong magnetic field driven by a dense core has allowed the intense solar winds to literally blow the atmosphere away and freeze what’s left of the water into the permafrost. It’s SO cold that if ice is uncovered it sublimates directly into gas. It’s currently summer at the lander’s site, but once winter sets in the lander will freeze solid and be covered with a 3 foot deep layer of dry ice (solid CO2).
This just doesn’t seem much like an example of “advanced global warming” at least in the sense that the phrase is applied here.
Hey, I’m just saying…
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Tagamet
“It’s SO cold that if ice is uncovered it sublimates directly into gas”
Huh? Somebody’s gonna have to splain this to me.
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Koz #113,
On Earth, usually ice melts to become liquid water, then the water evaporates to become water vapor. However, at certain combinations of temperature and pressure, solid ice can turn directly into water vapor without ever becoming liquid water. That’s called sublimation.
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May 29th, 2008 at 12:02 am
#39
greg woulf
I’d hold off on any payback info as was advised by Statik.
Save $2500 a year? really? Where do you get those numbers? What is an avg driver; 12K a year? 40 x 365 = 14.6K. Assuming you drive at least 40 miles EVERY day and you never go over 40 miles and you always charge at night, and you only charge 8KWHs and that 8KWHs is enough to supply your AC, radio, headlights and anything else for your avg person life, and at no point does the gas generator start….then we can have a basis for Volt’s best case argument.
Lets take a closer look.
Chevy Malibu 25 MPG (30 hwy, 22 city) base price $20K. Sure there are more efficient and cheaper cars out there, but trying to keep within GM and at one point they said it was in a Malibu shell, so why not use it for comparison.
Price of gas avg in the US as of yesterday was $3.97 per gallon. Always varying, always more expensive in the summer, so a higher summer rate and a lower winter rate should ave out. For simplicity, lets say it was $4 even.
Avg price of KWH is $0.10
1.6 Gallons (to go 40 mile) x $4 x 365 = $2336/yr of gas
$0.10/kwh x 8 kwh x 365 = $292
Since lithium ion batteries life span is 3 years and “HOPE” to have 70% left by year 5, we will stop at 4 years because the comparison gets ridiculous after that! Also for simplicity, I will assume no interest baring loan is taken out on the 15K difference.
$20K + ($2336 x 4 yrs) = $29,344
$35K + $292 = $35,292
When you have to factor in buying new batteries every 3-5 years, I’d say that buying the Volt is more of a statement than a financial investment. However, once battery technology reaches higher life span, cheaper prices and/or fuel skyrockets to $7/gal, then we can talk payback. And who knows, that may happen by 2013 or so, but right now, the Volt simply is a statement car.
As for your other points, Lotus only makes the outer chassis with a wider wheel base. In no way does Lotus build any of the electronics, motor, batteries or anything else in the Tesla. I’d buy an all electric car over a car that has to haul a maintenance headache ICE any day even if I can only drive 200 miles a day. The 5 yr span you mention is the same life span on the Chevy Volt. Most lit batteries are rated 2-3 yrs. The ones the Telsa uses are rated 3 and hope they last 5. No different in the Volt.
Less maintenance than a regular car? Are you kidding? Try same maintenance as a flex fuel vehicle – transmission + battery.
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May 29th, 2008 at 12:08 am
My bad, I made another mistake.
“$20K + ($2336 x 4 yrs) = $29,344
$35K + $292 = $35,292″
Should read
$20K + ($2336 x 4 yrs) = $29,344
$35K + ($292 x 4) = $35,876
Assuming no cells die in the 1st 4 years.
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May 29th, 2008 at 12:28 am
112 Tagamet….
Hey Tag, I may be at considerable risk for disclosing this, but a direct descendent of the ancient astronauts who made the trip from Mars to Peru (we call them Aztecs) told me Mars lost its ability to support most life forms due to global warming!
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:25 am
#55
N Riley
Totally Agree with everything you said about fuel cell cars. I might also add that an article I read from Home Power magazine about 2 years ago actually showed how if you plan on using a hydrogen PEM fuel cell powered car, the emissions to produce to create the hydrogen (before adding the emissions by transportation) is worse than a normal car. Also the fuel cell size and weight to power a car will take up most of the car.
Eventually, the platinum catalyst may be replaced with a cheaper metal or compound, but the size of the cell stack will still be much larger than a fuel tank and have to be able to pull its own weight which is a huge energy loss. Don’t get me wrong, I like fuel cells. Love fuel cell generators, but every single penny in fuel cell for transportation is a wasted penny.
Can’t argue # 57either, but #61…my manual does say 3000 miles or 3 months. I’m not an oil expert, but if that is true, and people drive their car as little as they claim on this thread, then they still need the oil change based on time.
#106
Tom K
Way to go!!!!!!!!! I love geothermal heat pumps!!! I wish every new house was built with one while the construction equipment is still on site (or drill where land is scarce like apartment complexes). Love them even more for huge houses, apartment, etc with many different heating areas if a mini-split geothermal system is used. I truly with all houses had geothermal and wipe natural gas out! Induction cook tops instead of Gas ranges. High efficiency electric hot water heaters (like the 94% efficient Marathon which never rust out or have to be thrown in a landfill). Anyways, enough of the off-topic. Just keep doing what you do, B!
Paul-R
LOL. I think you really though he wanted an answer. I thought he was being rhetorical because it is the pressure, not the temperature that would cause water to sublimate from a solid form to gas. If it is solid, making it colder will not cause sublimation.
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:31 am
Paul-R
Nevermin, on my last comment. When he said “It’s SO cold that if ice is uncovered it sublimates directly into gas” I thought “it” refered to the ambient temp, not the ice temp. If there is a huge temp difference btwn the two (temp range would vary with pressure) and whatever thermal barrier was “uncovered,” then sublimation can occur.
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:48 am
Jes & Paul-R,
Yes, I was being a wise-donkey. In all seriusness, I believe the sublimation temperature for water is SET by the ambient pressure alone. Super-cooling ice would only delay the time and rate for sublimation to occur once that ambient sublimation is exceeded. Basically it takes heat to create this phase change not lack of it. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Nasaman,
Funny, a good Peruvian friend of mine failed to mention this, but it does explain some things.:)
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:50 am
grrrr…
“once that ambient sublimation is exceeded”
s/b
once that ambient sublimation temperature is exceeded
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May 29th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Jes,
“The 5 yr span you mention is the same life span on the Chevy Volt. Most lit batteries are rated 2-3 yrs. The ones the Telsa uses are rated 3 and hope they last 5. No different in the Volt.”
The Jury is still out on the Volt battery life, but it is not LiCo chemistry like laptops and Tesla use. It will be either A123 or LG Chem cells. The are several threads about the batteries on this site, see the battery section for them. One of the core GM specs is for 10 years life. I’ll believe it when they warrantee it but cycle life should not be an issue unless you deplete/charge more than once per day. More recent statements from GM indicate more life than less.
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May 29th, 2008 at 3:07 am
koz
I agree. I will have to wait and see what the warranty info specifies. Or at least a published spec sheet provided by Chevy once the Volt is ready.
Til then, I will have to go by whay I have read and what I have been tought. I have read all they cycle data from A123’s before, but I have not read anything that addressed the concern of the battery losing it’s life span (which is different than life cycles) due to being in tempurtures well above 58F degrees. Maybe that was address and not conveyed. Maybe batteries will become cheap enough that that is not a concern. But when I talking tens of thousands of dollars vs. less than 1K, I am not simply crossing my fingers and hoping they addressed it.
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May 29th, 2008 at 3:22 am
#111 Kevin R
Oh, yeah, that’s why I say it’s scary! Rampant energy shortage causing inflation had HUGE ramifications in the 70’s AND 80’s. First, in the 70’s we had huge gas price run-ups and shortages. That triggered 3 things:
1) lots of “stagflation” (stagnant economy + inflation) (there were some other factors, of course, but energy was a big part)
2) increases in oil production. The world realized they could make a lot of money at those new higher prices and set in motion the plans to drill more and build more infrastructure. Which would take like a decade to fully materialize.
3) The US started to set in motion big conservation efforts (CAFE, 55mph limits etc.) which would take like a decade to fully materialize all the savings.
The upshot of all that was that by the time Reagan started outspending the Soviets, the price of oil actually began to collapse due to the increased production and decreased demand… The soviets with their huge oil and gas reserves ran out of their main source of “world tradeable” income at the same time they were pressed to spend. Voila! Soviet system collapse. So, yes. The energy inflation is a BIG deal with potentially world changing consequences.
And the difference this time is that the 70’s shortages were completely artificial. This time around the market may be being manipulated, but it’s pretty likely there’s some real market supply/demand forces driving it.
Being dependent on oil is a very, very bad thing. For each of us and for America. I’m certainly not condoning rapid energy-fueled-inflation. It’s just been the hard facts of my lifetime. Drilling like mad doesn’t solve the problem, either. The world has been drilling all over the place and the price has spiked 3 times since the 70’s, anyway. The way I see it is basically, both supply and demand are relatively inelastic and the simple explanation is that it is very, very hard to balance the two against each other, especially when the oil co’s aren’t particularly interested in letting the system run toward oversupply and rapid price drops. So, the system will always run a little “lean” toward undersupply. Hence the huge price swings that are mostly trending upward.
So, I’m going to leave out a bunch of steps here for the sake of brevity, but the ultimate solution is to move to solar, wind, hydro, etc. drive the costs of those solutions way down and make everything run off electricity. I’m not a tremendously wealthy Californian by any means, but I’m not struggling, either. Since our elected officials aren’t doing anything I consider useful, I’m doing all that I can to “vote with my checkbook” as much as I can afford to do what it takes to bring about the changes I think are necessary. Would I buy a \Volt at $45k? Probably. Would it be easy? No way, I’d definitely have to suffer for it. But would it be worth it to take a chance to help prevent future generations of Americans from suffering every 10 years or so through another trumped up energy spike and stagflation? Heck yes.
(and at $45k, those batteries had better last a LONG time because I’ll be driving that car for like 20 years.
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May 29th, 2008 at 5:59 am
Yes, they are not trying to find dry ice, they are trying to find solid WATER. THe Phoenix has 6 or 8 ovens that will heat the samples of soil/ice and use a mass spectrometer to determine is water is present (as well as the other material for past or present life).
Nasaman, the Aztec calendar says that the world will end on 12/21/20012. so I’m hoping we have our Volts a few days before then.
PS Do you really think that Mars is an example of climate change, as anaolgous to Earth’s climate change, and dodging the climate modelling question, or were you just joshing?
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May 29th, 2008 at 8:43 am
#125 Tag
If the world will end on 12/21/20012, we have roughly 18,000 years left. By that time, the Volt should be available in Topeka.
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May 29th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Darn wireless keyboard….
12/21/2012
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May 29th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Boy, some of you guys are really late owls. Or up very early. Just look at the times some of these comments were posted last night and this morning. I don’t know how you do it, but more power to you.
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May 29th, 2008 at 10:16 am
If Chevy can’t keep the price down then the majority will simply keep what they have and pay the high price of Gas. I’m on the list and want one but they will have to keep the cost reasonable and without the usual high Dealer Markup on new cars or I’ll be one of those that buys a $15,000 Ford Focus 33 mpg and pay for the cost of gas. 15K + difference buys a lot of gas - even at $5.00 per gallon – that’s about 3,000 gal or about 100,000 miles.
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May 29th, 2008 at 10:30 am
125 Tagamet….
I was mostly joshin’ about Mars, because Martian geophysics is way outside my field! But I wasn’t kidding about Earth’s global warming being a very serious concern, based on the many NASA specialists (and other environmental scientists) who say so.
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May 29th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Car sounds great, but when the tag goes over 30K, I may look back to the Prius………..
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May 29th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Another Popular Mechanics link about the Volt. You should find it interesting. I did.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4257460.html
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May 29th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
nasaman and Tagamet:
A cautionary tale, if ever I heard one.
If there is even a 1% chance of the Mars scenario, or anything even remotely approaching it, we had better be extremely careful what we do. I, for one, am not willing to shoot craps with the future of my grandchild.
Today’s children could easily live to be 100 years old. That will give them plenty of time to curse us for our lack of foresight and/or irresponsibility.
If global warming is not true, future generations may criticize us for erring on the side of caution. If it is, they may not exist. The choice is pretty clear to me.
Thank you nasaman for a very subtle and understated comment at #103. We have been warned.
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May 29th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
When it comes to climate change, I would rather play it safe than to be sorry one day. Some climate change is caused by human activity and we should try to control that. Some change is caused by earth planetary cycles and there is not much we can do about that. Plus, the potential of being hit by a big space rock could end it all very quickly and we do not have the resources or plans to control that problem. But, still, we should do our best where we can.
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May 29th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
#128 N Riley
I’m a late owl, but not THAT late, usually (unless the kids wake me up more frequently than usual!). We’re a few hours behind the clock on this website over here on the Left Coast.
It’s 10:53am right now. Let’s see what the timestamp on this is.
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
I’m totally in the better safe than sorry camp on global warming. The evidence that man is warming the planet may not be complete but it’s pretty strong and overwhelmingly complling when you look at risks/rewards.
Risk of we’re warming the planet but not doing anything about it: Hugely Negative.
Risk of we’re not warming the planet but build a stronger economy by creating new industries and technologies to export thereby doing something about it: Hugely Positive.
Frankly, it’s a total no-brainer.
Couple that with the fact that all you have to do is spend some time in Los Angeles and see all the respiratory problems (and smell the stanky air, bleah) and reducing pollution is also a bonus that there’s no downside to.
(Oh, except I guess for decreasing global dimming which will increase global warming, but we’ll take care of that at the same time
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
135 DaveP:
Amen on the LA air. Plus cancer, plus cardio-vascular impacts galore, plus low birth weight, stillbirth, and spontaneous abortion, to name but a few. These are all documented in peer reviewed medical journals.
What a disgrace.
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
DaveP #134
My time stamp on your post shows 12:53 pm. I am in Central Daylight Savings Time. So, based on that, your post shows to others at their clock time. Some of the post I was referring to came around midnight to 2 – 3 am my time. That is still late to be posting comments for me. But, hey, I am all for it. Don’t get me wrong, I love all the post, no matter what time they actually were done.
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
DaveP and all
I am in total agreement with reducing pollution from all sources. The health problems alone is worth the effort. Mankind can and should work toward keeping this beautiful blue, green and white world as clean and pristine as the good Lord intended. We were commanded to rule over the world, not to “ruin” the world.
Let’s solve auto pollution then tackle the next big hurdle whatever that may be.
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May 29th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
You only have your time zone when you log in.
On these threads that are not in the forum section, it looks like all times are central. I’m in Pacific and it is 11:50AM my time. I’d bet the stamp on this actually shows 1:50PM.
That’s why my midnight post shows 2AM
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May 29th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Jes #139
Yes, that time is what shows here in central time. Still though, late night post are just as interesting as these during the day time.
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May 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
At $45,000 I would rather buy a Phoenix Motorcar pure electric SUT and never have to deal with engine maintenance again.
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May 29th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
DaveP #124
I second your comments. Our national energy security has to be job no 1 followed by environment concerns and this need to be done at an acceptable cost.
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May 29th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
nasaman & Tagamet:
You really have to laugh at a thread that starts with Brian Williams on the NBC News and gets to Martian Meterological Conditions, and ends up with the Aztecs in Peru…..
But since we are there, I might as well jump in!
It was not the Aztecs, the Maya, or the Inca that made the trip from Mars. They are a relatively recent civilizations. More likely it was the Norte Chico, who lived in Peru as early as 3000 BCE.
If we are going to have wild speculation, we may as well at least try to have some accuracy, or we will begin to look like we are wearing our official GM-Volt tin foil hats………….
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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May 29th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
#143 Jim I:
Well tin foil hats may be all very fine, but we have a customer who wears a pyramid hat fabricated out of what appears to be old fashioned brazing rod. Judging by some of his hijinks, and the fact that he has lived to tell the tales, it would appear to be pretty effective. So maybe that’s an alternative we should consider. Who knows, if we could focus all of that “pyramid power”, we might just help Rick and Bob to find a way to let GM survive to fight another day.
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May 30th, 2008 at 6:21 am
N Riley #139,
As Noel Park didn’t say it, I take his expression : Amen.
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May 31st, 2008 at 12:42 pm
#146 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
Well I consider that a great compliment coming from you. Thank you.
And I agree with your response to N Riley’s comment. Amen from me too.
Very best regards to both of you.
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August 18th, 2008 at 12:19 am
This may p@#$ some folks off but the only way we can lose is if oil prices go back down. Right now the plug-in Prius looks like the bast deal out there.
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