GM CEO Misquoted About Chevy Volt Price and Timing, Want it For Less?, Get Tax Credits Passed
Last week we experienced quite a bit of buzz about a German publication’s interview with GM CEO Rick Wagoner and his supposed comments that the Volt would come out by 2010 and for less than $30,000.
I remained skeptical about this quote becasue it did not fit well with the information we have been getting from GM.
I now have official confirmation GM spokesperson David Darovitz that “there was an unfortunate misunderstanding that resulted in inaccurate information published.” He also went on to say “we are not in the position to speculate on the retail pricing of the Chevrolet Volt.”
Automotive News also has just published unnamed sources with GM as continuing to state the Volt cannot be sold for under $30,000 without a significant government tax credit, and that the automaker is indeed lobbying for this.
Last year we observed the passage of HR5351 by the House of Representatives which would have allowed up to $6500 plug-in tax credit. It was not passed by the Senate. In a poll , 94% of GM-Volt.com readers support plug-in tax credits.
Last week a new bill called HR 6049 was passed again by the house, allowing $5000 in plug-in tax credits for a car like the Volt with a 16 kwh battery. It allows $3000 as a base plus $200 per kwh over 5 kwh up to a maximum of an additional $2000. It may soon go before the Senate.
Below you can see which Senators voted for and against the failed bill HR5351. If you desire, feel free to contact those in the nay column and see if you could get them to change their mind. Considering Bush’s recent rebuff by OPEC to produce more oil, maybe he just might be in the right state of mind not to veto it if it does get to his desk.
The List:
| YEAS - 59:
Akaka (D-HI) Baucus (D-MT) Bayh (D-IN) Biden (D-DE) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Brown (D-OH) Byrd (D-WV) Cantwell (D-WA) Cardin (D-MD) Carper (D-DE) Casey (D-PA) Clinton (D-NY) Coleman (R-MN) Collins (R-ME) Conrad (D-ND) Dodd (D-CT) Dorgan (D-ND) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Feinstein (D-CA) Grassley (R-IA) Harkin (D-IA) Hatch (R-UT) Inouye (D-HI) Johnson (D-SD) Kennedy (D-MA) Kerry (D-MA) Klobuchar (D-MN) Kohl (D-WI) Lautenberg (D-NJ) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Lieberman (ID-CT) Lincoln (D-AR) Lugar (R-IN) McCaskill (D-MO) Menendez (D-NJ) Mikulski (D-MD) Murkowski (R-AK) Murray (D-WA) Nelson (D-FL) Nelson (D-NE) Obama (D-IL) Pryor (D-AR) Reed (D-RI) Reid (D-NV) Rockefeller (D-WV) Salazar (D-CO) Sanders (I-VT) Schumer (D-NY) Smith (R-OR) Snowe (R-ME) Stabenow (D-MI) Tester (D-MT) Thune (R-SD) Webb (D-VA) Whitehouse (D-RI) Wyden (D-OR) |
NAYS-40:
Alexander (R-TN) Allard (R-CO) Barrasso (R-WY) Bennett (R-UT) Bond (R-MO) Brownback (R-KS) Bunning (R-KY) Burr (R-NC) Chambliss (R-GA) Coburn (R-OK) Cochran (R-MS) Corker (R-TN) Cornyn (R-TX) Craig (R-ID) Crapo (R-ID) DeMint (R-SC) Dole (R-NC) Domenici (R-NM) Ensign (R-NV) Enzi (R-WY) Graham (R-SC) Gregg (R-NH) Hagel (R-NE) Hutchison (R-TX) Inhofe (R-OK) Isakson (R-GA) Kyl (R-AZ) Landrieu (D-LA) Lott (R-MS) Martinez (R-FL) McConnell (R-KY) Roberts (R-KS) Sessions (R-AL) Shelby (R-AL) Specter (R-PA) Stevens (R-AK) Sununu (R-NH) Vitter (R-LA) Voinovich (R-OH) Warner (R-VA) |
Not Voting - 1: McCain (R-AZ)
Popularity: 11%
(5 votes, average: 5 out of 5) 
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May 26th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
If 59 supported it and 40 opposed it, how come it didn’t pass? I think the price of oil being where it is, it certainly should pass now.
May 26th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Lyle -
I want to sincerely commend you for this topic. I’m sure that you (like me) are generally very reluctant to bring politics into this forum. When posters venture into politics here it too often results in a firestorm of disputes that too often DERAIL any reasoned discussion of the topic itself!
However, reluctant as I am to say so, I agree that in this case it’s fully justified. As a life-long Republican, I’m becoming steadily more & more convinced that the health of our Earth itself, as well as our nation is at stake. The list you included above showing which Senators voted for and against failed bill HR5351 is shocking yet strong evidence…. EVERY ONE of the 49 Senators against HR5351 is a Republican. I AM OUTRAGED!!!
This is clearly & unmistakably a critical issue that we at gm-volt.com can make a real difference on! So I want to issue a “CALL TO ACTION” TO EVERYONE HERE TO DO EXACTLY AS YOU SUGGEST …..call, email, write your Senators (primarily Republican Senators) and ask them to vote FOR HR 6049!!!
May 26th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Love the graphics. Is that the photoshopped wind tunnel Volt?
This is what I think most of us thought about the pricing. What about the production timetable?
May 26th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
#1 - Dan,
The vote wasn’t enough to override a presidential veto.
#2 - nasaman,
I’m a registered Republican, but I will be voting Democratic this November.
May 26th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
I’m a Republican and will still vote Republican. I believe the Republican president and Republican-controlled congress (at the time) were in power when the current incentives for HEV’s were put into place. I did a quick search on that bill and there is a lot more to it than a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ on “do you want to give a PHEV credit?”. Its a small part of the bill and there will be a lot of versions proposed from both sides to continue tax credits in one form or another before a final is agreed upon. Politicians have spent over $1B dollars of tax money on PNGV and other programs to get people to buy alternative-fuel vehicles - I’m not sure that they’ll be the solution.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Just exactly how can someone be so misquoted? I realize that the press is unreliable, but if they can’t get something as simple a price correct, what exactly CAN they report accurately? I know the German press sucks, but come on.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
#2 - nasaman
Your point is duly noted. Being an engineer, I am compelled to say that there was one democrat that voted “Nay;” Landrieu (D-LA). A minor point, I know.
I did note that there were a few republican “yeas.” They should be commended for stepping outside party lines.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
i thought Republicans liked tax cuts?
… oh wait i forgot, only for the rich.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I’m disheartened myself by all the R’s that voted “nay”. Not sure of the motive, but I suspect that Elephants who are generally in favor of “big business” see the oil industry as bigger than the auto industry, probably out of tradition, or Bush, or ..both.
It’s time to change and get on board. GM will produce the Volt and the masses will buy it. We may need a little help, and those who support it will be for our country, and not necessarily big business.
I don’t see this as a partisan issue, but rather a national one that both parties should support.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
According to Opencongress.org this bill would, “This bill would repeal roughly $18 billion in manufacturing tax credits for oil and gas companies while extending and increasing tax credits for a wide range of renewable energy programs. It is expected to cause a contentious debate in the Senate, where it’s chances of being approved are uncertain.”
As I recall, back in the year 2000, their was a loud chorus of folks saying, “We need people with oil industry experience in the WhiteHouse. It will help us keep the price of gas low…etc.” To those folks I would like to extend a big facetious, “Thank you”.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
ThombDbhomb
” Your point is duly noted. Being an engineer, I am compelled to say that there was one democrat that voted “Nay;” Landrieu (D-LA).”
Hmmm…from Luisiana. Can’t imagine why he would have voted this way. Tragic that he would cut his nose to spite his face. I understand politics but I just don’t “get it”.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Nasaman and ThombDbhomb, I too, noted the Dem on the Nay side and also the “R’s” on the Yay side. What doesn’t show are the cowards who voted “present”. Personally, I’m glad that the Repubs are FINALLY showing SOME fiscal restraint! It’s been embarrassing how they have spent like Democrats for the last 7 years. The snapshot of a single vote doesn’t provide much of a database upon which to condem (nor praise) one party or the other. Maybe there were even stronger bills in the wings that could have put the funds toward even better energy independence efforts. MAYBE (GASP) the Volt isn’t the ONLY thing that’s going to get us where we need to be, and in almost any case, I’d rather the Feds keep us safe and maintain our infrastructure - period. Isn’t it just possible that STATES could provide some incentives?
DUBYUH has signed renewable energy legislation amounting to hundreds of millions of our money - I haven’t seen much ink in the press on that….
This tech is coming. It’s going to happen. I’ll “duck and cover” before saying that as passionate as we are about this project, there are a few other renewable energy initiatives out there too.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Koz #10
Unfortunately politics are corrupt. Unfortunately It’s not really “by the people for the people” it’s “Buy the people for the lobby”. Grass roots can change that it just takes time. The Volt is on schedule and we of GM-Volt.com are definitely “grass roots”. It’s important that we keep the pressure on.
I’m taking nasaman’s advice and writing my “nay” senator a stiff e-mail. I’d love to see the press get a hold of this and expose it.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
As a retired US Air Force veteran, having proudly served, I certainly will be writing my Senators and Congressman (again) to pass this bill. There is an underlying joke to all this of course. The $5,000 credit would be more than made up for in our dollars no longer going over there, to countries despising our democratic values, freedoms and liberty, and if you’re female, more certainly definable.
As a military retiree, I can attest to at least my deployments leading to long stays to do not much more than protect the Oil Freeways for Oil Barons and shekdoms. NO THANKS. This is just as much a security and sanity of our American dilemma than all else. Come on, let’s please get some common sense in Washington this Fall.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
A note about our imports - $440,000,000,000.00 this year alone and growing. What are we waiting for as a Nation. To be how deep in debt to people who never fought for freedom in all their history???
Maddening.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
comments@whitehouse.gov
Lets all send a message to the White house at the above e mail address.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
JBF,
Ahhhmen!
May 26th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
I apologize for hogging space, but this post is very apropos to many posts.
The Norwegian and Swiss governments are paying 50% tax credits to people buying electric vehicles. Why? The article suggests these countires prefer keeping their Francs and Krona at home.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Tag, you’re wrong. Republicans have spent like Republicans for the past 7 years. This one party, one I once voted routinely for, has managed to take the budget from $1.6 trillion to INCOMING lobbed grenade at well over $3.0 trillion coming up. Sorry, but Republicans did that holding hands all the way.
Emotional turpitudes don’t make the postulate correct. G.W. did it with all the Republican Congress in beastially violent agreement. The only sad note is the once grand Government largesse went to the larger part of the average American. Fact check yourself before replying on where the money goes today. The average American was humbly replaced by the more well-to -do and R-connected. Yes, there are sins on all sides, but if you want to post something, at least have the common courtesy to fact check.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Yup, and last time I checked Norway and Switzerland aren’t fighting any expensive wars.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
I believe a large percentage of the votes that were no is because the tax breaks for the oil companies that everyone talks about don’t go for just oil companies. I don’t want to put out % when I can’t remember the right numbers, so does anyone know the right % of NON-oil companies that would be hurt by repelling the misnamed bill.
Things aren’t always as simply as they seem on the surface, and it is always best to get both sides of the story. Doesn’t seem right to target the oil companies when it is opec that is most to blame especially when to target the oil companies you are taking down a whole lot of other businesses too. We need a strengthen the economy right now not cripple it even more.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
And Tag, the Volt is a Huge answer to the issue of Oil. As a retiree, this is a finger in the dike issue. Once the technology and political wind is changed, the other manufacturers will have no choice but to offer up the same. The days of using a technology now over 100 years old of puffs of fire in a cyclinder maybe coming to an end. Having been called to and part of the process of sending men and women to protect the Oil Highway of the Middle-East and the violence this entails, I hope you’ll stay open-minded rather than a political junkie espousing the R-party line. Good luck. Been there, done it, now I’ve grown older, wiser, and can see the Nation is screaming for this change. Freed from emotions and no longer tied to any party, I can see a replacement of this R-party in power will help the strength and vitality of this Great Nation again.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
#11 Tagment: ‘What doesn’t show are the cowards who voted “present”’
Sorry, Tag, but this one is blowing up on you. 59 Yeas vs 40Nays. There are 100 Senators so only one is missing. Scroll to the bottom of the list, and I kid you not, it says “Not Voting - 1: McCain (R-AZ)”
Pretty harsh of you to call McCain a coward, but you just did.
May 27th, 2008 at 1:04 am
I seem to recall that HR 5351 wold have taken tax money from domestic oil companies and some lawmakers used that as their reason for voting “nay.” I’m not sure where the money to pay for HR 6041 tax credits would have come from, or what the stated reasons for “nay” votes were for HR 6049.
May 27th, 2008 at 1:23 am
ok, sent an email to Cornyn (R-TX)!
May 27th, 2008 at 2:35 am
Way to slay the ignorant trolls, nuttzy #22!! This isn’t a board for partisan political blog warfare, so when we do discuss politics, let’s keep it to the issues, not worthless media fodder from the campaign trail.
I think it says a lot that 6% of GM-Volt readers, people who are extremely interested in buying an electric car, oppose a tax credit that would make their purchase less expensive. I may disagree with your politics, but I respect the way you apply it selflessly.
It’s easy to see why opposition to this bill would be strong due to the reduction of tax credits for oil companies. Although this is, in my view, the “right thing to do”, it will also cause the price of gasoline to increase as the oil companies pass that production tax on to the consumer.
Like most Americans, I still rely on my gasoline-fueled car to get to work and such, and I would prefer it if they didn’t increase those production taxes until cars like the Volt are, you know, available on the market. There’s no sense in paying more for gas in order to fund a tax credit for electric cars that aren’t yet available.
So it’s important for good American citizens to be vigilant about the details of these proposals, because even this progressive admits with no hesitation that the Democrats play cruel jokes on their core constituencies just like the Republicans do. The gas tax holiday is a great example of both.
There’s been a lot of talk about “change” in the context of which politician can best bring it about, which I think betrays a great misunderstanding of the world around us. The world isn’t standing still, waiting for the right politician to change it. The world is changing at the breakneck speed of multinational private enterprise, and the people are waiting for a politician that will provide the leadership necessary to help society catch up to realities of this brave new world in which we find ourselves.
The world has changed in profound ways in the past three decades, and our government has been doing nothing but cheerleading, failing to do anything but prepare us to live in a brand-saturated reality TV show they call the American Dream, a cartoonishly unrealistic portrayal of an unsustainable way of life.
I’m not idealistic enough to believe that any politician can change the world. We have a global shadow government that controls the central banking system, takes orders from nobody, and whose power cannot be wrested away without plunging the world into violent chaos. They’ll change the world however they like, and if the American government can’t keep up, then they’ll find a market elsewhere.
Thankfully, the priorities of the shadow government might not be as self-destructive as they could be. The Rockefeller family is now putting pressure on Exxon/Mobil to invest more in alternative energy. Maybe they’re starting to worry that the season finale will be a serious downer. ..
May 27th, 2008 at 2:35 am
Check: Country serious about oil situation - Not yet.
Folks, please just go about your business. Soon the government will be running around for a good plan. Of course the sky will be falling but that’s what it’s going to take.
May 27th, 2008 at 3:01 am
6, 7, 8 ,9 Gallon of gas here it come!!!!!!!!!!. And American People still won’t take it serious.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:20 am
I’m disappointed that Wagoner is not a good enough speaker to make himself clear on this important subject.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:29 am
I moved from Texas to Oregon a year ago to complete a degree in Renewable Energy Engineering. Just seeing the culture change from the two states first hand leaves me with no surprise seeing that all 6 of Texas, Oklahoma & Louisiana Senators voted no and that all 6 California, Oregon and Washington Senators voted yes.
It’s amazing how little the Senators around Texas value sustainability (environment & diplomatically) and how much they do on the west coast. Eventually I would like to move back near my family, but all my peers with similar beliefs are on the west coast.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:29 am
I paid $4.17 a gallon yesterday. Now costs me $13.59 a day just to go to work and back. My Hyundai Elantra gets 31 MPG. I am looking forward to the Volt.
Interesting post. I agree with Dan #1. Last year was different. Gas was “cheap”. It is different this time but the bill may need to wait until after November.
Kent, #5 says, “Just exactly how can someone be so misquoted? I realize that the press is unreliable, but if they can’t get something as simple a price correct, what exactly CAN they report accurately?”
Indeed! How CAN they screw up something as simple and as important as that? I wonder if they didn’t screw up, but Mr. Wagoner did.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:42 am
Jes #29. I envy you. If I wasn’t so old and had the time, I would go back to school and get a degree in Renewable Energy Engineering.
What a fascinating and timely subject to be studying. Good luck. I hope you are very successful.
May 27th, 2008 at 6:07 am
#31 Rashiid It’s never too late. I went back to college after 5+ years of struggling to raise my family with just a HS diploma.
The program first started in the U.S. in 2005 in Portland. I think in Fall 2006 (maybe 2007) a program opened up in Canton, NY also. Right now, most everyone in the Portland campus has some sort of electrical, mechanical or chemical background and most already have some sort of degree. I think the figure was 27 different states are represented by the student body in the RE major with 1 international. It’s a little intimidating, but I’m doing what I want to do.
Thanks for the support.
May 27th, 2008 at 6:31 am
I don’t have the legislation in front of me to reference but I seem to recall the reason so many Republicans voted “Nay” on this legislation is because Venezuela was treated favorable over other oil companies.
May 27th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Hrm, post #14 in http://gm-volt.com/2008/05/22/gm-ceo-chevy-volt-out-earlier-by-2010-and-for-less-than-30000/ by this ‘Statik’ person
“You all know me. You all no what I am going to say. But go ahead, get excited. This dream will die in 3…2…1…”
I don’t know who this dude is, but he is always flippin’ right.
/pat
/pat
/pat
May 27th, 2008 at 7:23 am
I will be writing my 2 “nay” senators later today. BTW, here is our gas dollars at work:
http://bestpicsaround.com/pic-888-Artificial-Heaven-in-Dubai
May 27th, 2008 at 7:23 am
OK, a lot of talk about what’s in this bill. Some infer it would take away money for fighting wars, others talk of it favoring Venezuela.
From what I remember, back 7 years ago when was oil was really cheap, the U.S. government started giving oil companies billions of dollars in tax credits to spur new drilling and refinery investments. This made sense at the time because, with oil so cheap, oil companies had little motivation to invest in new supply infrastructure.
Today, oil companies are making record profits. To be clear, “record profits” means that this is the most money any company has ever made after expenses in history.
My impression is that HR5351and HR6049 are essentially bills that would discontinue the billions of dollars of oil company tax credits, and re-target those tax credits towards developing alternatitive vehicles.
Now, I might have some of this wrong or incomplete, so for those that really know what’s in HR6049, please correct me. It would be nice if people on this forum really knew what else was in this bill.
May 27th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Thanks for the list, this can help us know how to vote, becasue getting off gasoline is the single most important issue, National Security, Our Wealth, The Environment, The health of our citizens, spurring the economy with the green technology sector, and lots more.
May 27th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Like Nasaman @ 2,
I am glad that Lyle brought this topic to the forefront. He should keep bringing it up. Although it won’t pass with the current Lame [Duck] President, we know where the candidates stand, which is half the battle (short of McCain). I plan on giving my Senators a mouthful for not supporting the bill. Let’s keep our eyes on this type of legislation.
May 27th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Thanks for the list, I have written to my Senator who voted against it.
“I was saddened by the fact you voted against HR5351 because this is a huge national security threat, health issue, enviornmental, and economic issue. We need to get off of oil as fast as we can and use green technology developed here in the USA. Please support the new bill HR6049. Thank you.”
Everyone else, feel free to do the same. Thanks, Brad - Florida
May 27th, 2008 at 7:34 am
OK, I got some real info here:
http://democraticwhip.house.gov/whip_pack/2008/05/19/whip_pack.pdf
Here’s the LEGISLATION AT A GLANCE:
H.R. 6049 RENEWABLE ENERGY AND JOB CREATION ACT OF 2008
Summary:
H.R. 6049, the Energy and Job Creation Act of 2008, will provide almost $20 billion of tax incentives for investment in renewable energy, carbon capture and sequestration demonstration projects, energy efficiency and conservation. The bill will also extends $27 billion of expiring temporary tax provisions, including the research and development credit, special rules for active financing income, the State and local sales tax deduction, the deduction for out-of-pocket expenses for teachers, and the deduction for qualified tuition expenses. In addition, the bill provides almost $10 billion of additional tax relief for individuals through an expansion of the refundable child tax credit and a new standard deduction for property taxes. The bill would be primarily offset by closing a tax loophole that allows individuals that work for certain offshore corporations, such as hedge fund managers, to defer tax on their compensation and would delay the effective date of a tax benefit that has not yet taken effect for multinational corporations operating overseas.
May 27th, 2008 at 7:50 am
I just love it when the threads get political! Everyone is so level headed and so much knowledge and understanding is passed, noted and well-received around the board.
Tax cuts? Really? Jam another $1 on your national credit card bill? There is absolutely no way the price of the Volt doesn’t just go up $5K if theis went through. ZERO!
Hypothetical GM Wagoner/Board of Governors meeting if this passed:
“With this new 5K tax cut, we should keep the price the same as we planned and let beleagured Americans reap this benefit over our bloated cash strapped company…and our jobs”
People are motivated by two things, fear and pain. Not free money. Europe’s move to renewables, eco cars, etc. is base on the taxation of ’sins’ $10/gas.
You want electric cars? You want cars that are ‘good for the environment’ $5 a gallon tax on gas…right now. You got ‘em…they would be everywhere. Alot more than giving a few thousand yuppies (yes, I include myself in them) 5K off a $45,000 car.
Best of all, the gov’t actually brings in money. But wait you say, America can’t afford that, it will put us in a recession. Well, it’s already here, this would be the perfect time to take your lumps.
I think there is still alot of ‘chaff’ driving going on out there. I doubt many people are saying, “yeah we aren’t going camping this weekend because of the price of gas” just yet…but maybe there should be.
Change is not supposed to be easy. Handouts to not make people adjust their behavior…spankings do.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:09 am
I wrote to both of my Senators who each voted yes, but I wanted to reinforce my views.
I rented a van this weekend to drive 200 miles to haul some items. It cost me $140 in fuel and we drove very modestly and didn’t push it.
We now have two electric cars available in Mid-Michigan.
http://www.greatlakesautosales.net/
There is a small two-seater from China that gets 125 miles on a charge and has a top speed of 45mph. It costs $15k. The 08 model has a heater, whereas the 07 didn’t. Not much of a market for a non-heated car here in Michigan. Then the dealer got a four seater from Canada that gets 150 miles on a charge, charges up in four hours and has a top speed of around 45mph. Fine for city driving and not much else. This one costs $15k.
Here’s a link to a news broadcast on the small Chinese car.
http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=resources/auto&id=5868823
May 27th, 2008 at 8:20 am
I take of two days off to do some work around the house and I come back to major political threads!!!!
I am one of the minority that thinks that a rebate to buy a car is wrong, when our bank balance at the federal level is NEGATIVE TEN TRILLION DOLLARS!!!!! Let me amend that just a bit. Until we get a grip on the federal deficit, any handout to any special interest should be banned. If we do not get our fiscal house in order, and very soon, we will not have a house at all.
But what scares me the most is that I find myself agreeing with Statik’s post #40! As many of the long time posters around here know, we do not see eye to eye on many topics…..
The rapidly rising price for oil is going to guarantee that very high mileage ICE based vehicles and all of the new alternatives for transportation are going to be here very soon.
JMHO
May 27th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Wrote to my Senator, Wayne Allard of Colorado. He’s retiring soon, and it appears Mark Udall, a Democrat and strong supporter of renewables and incentives for hybrids is going to replace him this Fall. I am going to donate to Mr. Udall’s campaign today. We need someone to work on American provided solutions. And yes, like most others on the GM Volt nation site, I make over $100,000 per year, in part from my military retirement and investments. Ready to buy a Volt, and I’ll put my personal resources to work for this country.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:28 am
#40 Statik - Not a big fan of some of your posts but you nailed it this time. Tax credits are not the answer here although I doubt those who were on the nay side would be inclined to increase the tax on gas. By the way, remember Tsongas? He was laughed out of the presidential race years ago - certainly way ahead of his time.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:28 am
5. Kent,
The translated quote was apparently:
“GM has a clear goal: We want to put the Volt on the market in 2010, at a price of less than $30,000.”
I’m not sure that the article contains any “misquote” at all. Of course GM wants the Volt to be less than 30,000. It was Lyle and the people on this board that glossed over the word “want” and misquoted.
Even now, the start to this page has Lyle writing “…his supposed comments that the Volt would come out by 2010 and for less than $30,000.”.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:29 am
#43 Jim I
“But what scares me the most is that I find myself agreeing with Statik’s post #40! As many of the long time posters around here know, we do not see eye to eye on many topics…..”
Is it just me…or are we doing alot of ‘agreeing’ with each other lately? Surely a sign of the apocalypse.
But in all seriousness, kudos to you for taking a stand on this issue. The right thing is not always the popular one.
/passes spare fire suit
May 27th, 2008 at 8:30 am
I’m not sure if coward is the right phrase, but hey, McCain should have voted on this energy bill. He’s voted on every other quasi-energy bill authorizing to send our men and women over for oil protection money, so why not vote on this bill to move toward keeping them home.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Folks, I have not studied this bill (HR5351) but it was not a vote on incentives for PHEVs alone. The bill raised taxes by about 18:5 billion and included a proposed outlay of 1.3 billion for PHEV incentives. It might have been a step in the right direction, I do not know, but those who voted NAY were voting not to increase the cost of gas at the pump, because the tax increases fell largely on oil producing companies. Naturally the Democrats say they are closing loop holes and ending “big oil” subsidies, whereas the Republicans say they are fighting to keep taxes low.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:46 am
News is out that Americans had the steepest decline in driving in our history over the past weekend.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/26/gas.driving/index.html
May 27th, 2008 at 8:46 am
It would be nice if some the Volt fans here that are NOT from the US would have some comments on the Volt.. Much as We love our southern friends..No slight intended at all… the Canadian government here is so busy cutting their own throats to spite their faces that we (Canadians) are not going to get the tax cuts/rebates that you all are spreaking of. I assume this sight is for ALL Volt fans…not just the US.. I realize that Most of you are American but the rest of us are really more concerned about what is going on with the Volt developement and production and “how soon can I get one”..
Just my 1.5 Cents..
Ray
May 27th, 2008 at 8:51 am
I’m not really wanting to ‘wax political’ about ‘the war,’ and it’s eventual end, but with headlines today like this: “S&P: US home prices tumble a record 14.1 pct in 1Q” I will wade in.
It won’t be done because of ‘job complete’ or who is in the White House…or some kind of morale code checkbook that has been completed…it wil be because of self-preservation. America is going to leave, America has to leave…it will be ugly.
Towns everywhere are turning into Saginaw, Michigan. Recession, loss of jobs, deflating dollar. Saginaw has 50K people, but over 1500 houses for sale. Crime is rampant. The per capita income for the city is $13,816
If you live in America, and you don’t have a big bag of Euros somewhere…if you are like most with equity in their homes and you want to see the face of fear. Check out the home listings in Saginaw, Michigan.
http://www.realtor.com/search/searchresults.aspx?ctid=29021&typ=7
What you want $2,400 for you house? Your insane…most I’d give you is $999. Surely, it can’t happen in your neighbourhood…right?
May 27th, 2008 at 8:53 am
#43 - Jim I
I too am a fiscal conservative, so I don’t usually support tax credits and subsidies. But right now we need a fundamental shift in our source of energy for transportation. If we rely on simple supply and demand alone, it will take too long, and things could get really bad. We need government involvement to manage a smooth transition.
To look at it another way, our economy is bleeding almost a trillion a year in oil imports. So if tax credits for plug-in cars help make the transition a year sooner, they should easily pay for themselves through increased tax revenue.
As for the national debt, I don’t think numbers like $10 trillion are meaningful to most people. If you take the national debt and divide it by the number of people in the U.S., you get just under $31,000. So for a family of 4, your portion of the national debt would be $124,000. These kinds of numbers are much more meaningful, and scary.
What’s more scary is that most of the debt is being financed by China. If they start selling T-Bills, our interest rate will soar and we won’t be able to afford anything. They literally have us by the balls. So yearly deficits and pork-barrel spending really could screw us in the end.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:58 am
I watched the most recent oil exec questioning in the senate last week and it was interesting to hear. The big oil in America really only controls about %8 of the worlds oil with the majority of the rest being controlled by state oil companies, Essentially OPEC. Every one of the oil execs on the stand stated that their companies not only drill and refine oil but are NET IMPORTERS of oil from state run government oil companies. This means that some of their older wells may be pumping oil out and it cost 10$/Barrel, but they are also paying the $135 a barrel for all that they need to buy. They also testified that they are currently making on average 4 cents on every gallon of gasoline they sell. That is down from 10 cents a gallon back when gas was cheap. I don’t feel sorry for these guys but at the same time the senators grilling them didn’t show me in any way that what the oil companies are doing is purposely trying to screw the American people for profit.
HR5351 would have taken government subsidies away from the oil companies which is why republicans voted it down. It should be noted that Bush specifically said that taking these subsidies away would get a veto without thinking twice about it. So the Dems passed this basically as a political move. I’m not going to say who’s right and who’s wrong because they all are out there playing games. I will say however that those oil subsidies are paying for oil exploration here in America. I know that Exxon profit as the highest of any company ever, but given the low profit margin and the insane amount of fuel we buy I can’t say I’m surprised. Even if Exxon made 0$ profit and used it’s money to lower the price of oil, it wouldn’t lower gas any more than 4 cents.
We need to pass HR 6049 and we need a congress who can work together to write good legislation. I have read this bill and it looks very positive to me. I don’t think congress will let the solar, wind, and hybrid subsidies lapse, but I think there was a lot politically to be gained by dragging their feet and making political statements prior to putting out good legislation at the last minute. On the plus side it seems that nomatter who we get in November, we’re going to see positive changes in the renewable energy field and Hopefully our government will encourage the Chevy Volt to be one of the best selling cars of all time the way Japan subsidized the Prius!
May 27th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Statik, stop being right! I wanted this one.
I think I might gut an ICE and build a BEV (battery elec. veh.). It is looking more and more like the thing to do. I’m not spending $40K for a vehicle ever again.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:04 am
#50 Theoldguy - Ray
I am Canadian. I too mostly am concerned about the when, and the how much. American EV rebates matter little to me on a personal level.
However, we disagree on “the Canadian government here is so busy cutting their own throats to spite their faces that we (Canadians) are not going to get the tax cuts/rebates that you all are spreaking of”
I love the fact we are responsible now, I remember the early 90s when we were spending like drunken saliors, the national debt out of control and our dollar was worthless.
We took our lumps, went through alot of painful years…now we have 10 consecutive years of budget surpluses -AND- we cut income taxes every…go figure. Side perk, our dollar is a icon now.
I took the family to Disneyland 5 years ago, $200 on park tickets cost me $335 Canadian…now its $197.
You should be overjoyed we don’t give rebates, free handouts and are fiscally responisble. If this was 5 years ago, your ‘Canadian Volt’ at $45,000US would have cost you $72,000. There is your rebate…$27,000 worth…and by 2011 it will be more.
This is exactly my point, short tem bandaids don’t fix long-term problems…they hurt them.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:09 am
To Canadian posters,
U.S. tax credits should accelerate the acceptance of the Volt, and may influence other governments to do the same. If I were Canadian, this would interest me.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:11 am
I scanned through the House passed bill, and saw lots of items that weren’t obviously renewable energy related.
Hopefully the Senate will eliminate some of the pork. Let the bill be really renewable energy related.
Favorable tax laws for motorsport entertainment complexes, film and television production, …? Maybe if the pork is equally distributed between R and D, then it will pass and get signed.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:11 am
#10-Koz: Hmmm…from Luisiana. Can’t imagine why he would have voted this way. Tragic that he would cut his nose to spite his face. I understand politics but I just don’t “get it”.
I believe Louisiana’s economy is pretty heavily dependant on oil–much of our domestic oil comes from offshore drilling done in sight of Louisiana’s Gulf Coast. And a significant amount of imported oil comes into the US through the port of New Orleans. The political calcuation by Senator Landrieu may have been that anything threatening to reduce US oil consumption is bad for Louisiana (I don’t know this for sure, it’s just a guess).
By the way, Landrieu (D-LA) is Mary Landrieu, a woman. You referred to her as a him.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:14 am
WHY YOU SHOULD BE IN FAVOR OF A TAX CREDIT???
Put it this way the tax credit allow GM to recoup some development and research cost without direct funding. This ensures that taxpayers get an end result unlike direct funding which many times we get nothing from it. If because of the tax break GM can charge $5,000 more for 50,000 cars they will get $2.5 million dollars more. This is money that GM gets right away while the government gets to hold the $5,000 until tax time (earning interest). It is a much better deal for the government than direct funding. The government is putting billions of direct funding towards hydrogen. Maybe if they had a rebate program for Hydrogen we would actually see some Hydrogen cars because that is the only way the auto makers would see the money.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Just curious Lyle, I have three threads ‘awaiting moderation’ Two of them contained links…so I reposted one without the links and it still got flagged.
Could you tell us ‘the triggers’ for moderation so that we can avoid them, it’s a little frustrating only getting 2 of 3 posts through without having a multi-hour delay on the other one.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:38 am
#52 - Gsned57
It doesn’t surprise me that Japanese government helped to subsidize the Prius. I’m interested. How did they go about doing it? Details about this seem very relevant to this thread.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:40 am
I’m all for paying less taxes, but;
What else is in the bill?
How much is pork pet projects which pander to special interests?
How much corporate welfare socialist redistribution?
How will this bill keep monopolies from forming and are these idiot legislators [NOT statesmen] trying to choose the best technologies for the corporations or special interests instead of simply leveling the playing field so the market can choose the BEST ones for US?
May 27th, 2008 at 9:48 am
For convenience, here’s a list of all US Senator’s addresses, phone numbers, etc…. Contact Your US Senator
May 27th, 2008 at 9:48 am
I think that we need to distinguish between good tax policy and bad tax policy. Sending every American family $600 to stimulate the ecnomy does not work. It does not seek to change behavior. Much of the money may be spent on imported goods, which will exacerbate our trade deficit, which in turn adds to the troubles of the dollar.
Good tax policy, like rebates for hybrid vehicles, changes behavior. Folks driving a Prius are buying 1/2 to 1/3 less gas than those of us who are not. This decreases the amount of oil that we import. Imports lower the value of our dollar.
We can also get into the minutia of HR 5351. The bottom line is this: if they wanted to get X done, they would have found a way to do it. If Y (e.g. preferential treatment for Venezuela) was getting in the way, then they (Dems and Repubs) could have agreed to remove it. So either it wasn’t really an issue, or they didn’t really want to come to an agreement. Writing to your Senators who voted “nay” and telling them what you want done is one step. We need to write the “yeas” as well, and make sure they know what our priorities are.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:01 am
W00t moderation gone through! Although I lost one. Here is a synopsis:
“Analyst downgrades GM to Hold” - Citi
SEPT 2007 Citi Uprages GM to BUY, target $41, upside of $57
FEB 2008 Citi Reiterates GM BUY, target $32
TODAY! M’08 Citi downgrades GM to ‘HOLD’ target $21.
Have to be some happy investers when the stock was at $32 in September, they put a buy and a $41 target, with upside of $57. I’m sure they enjoyed there 50% haircut down to $17.
Morale of story…do your own homework, never invest in a company where you have a personal bias, good — or — bad.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:03 am
For anyone who cares to read the complete bill (12 pgs), click…. HR6049
May 27th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Again, I apologize for the grammar. My posts here makes me question the credentials of my Grade 6 public school teacher for giving me a ‘A+’ in English.
‘their’
May 27th, 2008 at 10:09 am
(Let’s see what this one does…)
We need a bipartisan solution to raise the income to pay for the plug-in tax credits. I’ve heard it said that both liberals and conservatives support legalizing and taxing marijuana. Maybe that money could pay for plug-in tax credits. Can we all get behind that? Prohibition doesn’t seem to be working.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Dave G - Thanks for crossing the isle on this issue.
For those of you who live in one of the “nay” vote states - vote for someone else in the next election cycle if you truly want to get there attention.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Statik…. Hold on there buddy with regards to Saginaw, MI. It happens to be my city and you misrepresent it by your ’stats’.
We have many homes for sale, largely because GM has been pulling its manufacturing facilities out. In the 1970’s we had 18,000 folks working in their three foundries and other parts plants. There is only one foundry and one parts plant left, leaving around 4,000 working for GM in this area. Saginaw is becoming a medical hub and alternative energy manufacturing hub. Hemlock Semiconductor is in the middle of a $500 billion dollar expansion and an additional $1 billion (that’s billion) dollar expansion is to set to finish in 2012. Our medical industry is expanding in a frenzied pace as it replaces the traditional manufacturing of GM. Do we have a lot of homes for sale? Yes. Do many, many cities across the USA? Yes. Is Saginaw less safe than others of similar size? No. Our crime rate is down precipitously from last year. Saying the crime here is rampant is a complete fallacy and outright lie. Flint, MI, 40 miles to the south has substantially more violent crimes than Saginaw. Check your statistics and not outdated ones. I serve this city and am heavily involved in helping to turn it around. Two weeks ago we had a city-wide meeting of all the neighborhood watch groups and the chief and city manager made their reports. We have made tremendous progress with regards to crime but you made it sound like it was out of control. For shame!
Now for the Volt…. We’re behind in promoting our own businesses and industries here in the USA because we WON’T put tax money once in a while towards pushing those industries. Other countries do it all the time and they stomp our ass right out of that business sector. Enough said.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Out of the thread but I have to say thanks to Lyle’s programmer for the imbedded editor for Firefox
May 27th, 2008 at 11:35 am
After reading the text of HR 6049 I found that there is a little pork in there, but by enlarge it is full of tax breaks and tax credits for consumers and energy and transportation industries for new technologies. It is a cost to the government because of lost revenues, however the bill compensates for this by the following quote:
The bill would be primarily offset by closing a tax loophole that allows individuals that work for certain offshore corporations, such as hedge fund managers, to defer tax on their compensation and would delay the effective date of a tax benefit that has not yet taken effect for multinational corporations operating overseas.
Now it is much more clear as to the Nays. This combined with the fact that it is aiding industries that will be in competition with existing energy concerns (many of whom are friendly with the administration) and create technologies that may come to be mandated on some of those concerns. The Republicans will tell their constituents that this is a bill for huge tax increases and they would be right… if you are an offshore hedge fund manager or a multinational corporation operating overseas (like GM).
May 27th, 2008 at 11:40 am
The issue is probably not the tax credits. More than likely it was an issue of either a) where the money for the credits would be drawn from or b) of what this proposal was embedded with. (ie: earmarks, other requirements, free bus cards for cities, who knows)
You really need to read the actual bill to know what’s going on.
May 27th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Gordon Green #59
What you are missing is the bill is titled “Renewable Energy and Job Creation Act of 2008 “ The Job creation act is a catch all phrase so they can stick in what ever pork. The Title tells us that the bill is not just about renewable energy.
May 27th, 2008 at 11:49 am
#74 Kevin
I realize being a local, it’s tough to look at things objectively
Unfortunately, real estate stats come out monthly, and I’m sorry but Saginaw is always the worst, or close.
Here is the report from FOUR days ago.
http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/05/national_study_saginawsaginaw.html
Highlights:
294 foreclosures — in the first quarter alone
Home value dropped 24.7 percent from the $86,900 (2Q’07)
“At the end of April, roughly, the total units sold have gone down about 48 percent (from last year),” Wells (Re/Max).
Saginaw had an 8.5 percent unemployment rate in March, up from 7.5 percent last year, Youngblood said. The city lost 3,066 jobs from March 2007
Crime rate stats, with handy graphs:
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Saginaw&state=MI
Pop: 60,000
Murder:
16
Forcible Rape:
74
Robbery:
173
Aggravated Assault:
1,377
Burglary:
1,054
Larceny or Theft:
1,350
Car Theft:
280
Arson:
88
That data is a little old, (2003) but it only got worse thru 2007, with a slight (6%) improvement in 2008. Even if things have marginally improved from 07 to 08…it’s still scary bad.
Feb 22, 2008. The rate of violent crimes committed in Saginaw in recent years has been higher than that of Flint and more than double that of Detroit, according to the Saginaw Police Department. The department reported that around 60 percent of homicides in the city are gang-related.
The decrease you are refering to is SIX percent in violent crime and that is ONLY because the state is trying to get it off ‘the worst list’ (still 14th), by hiring five troopers and a supervisor to literally stand in the red zones.
40 houses burned on halloween in ‘06. Thanks to a watchdog group and ‘local activists’ they got that down to 8. Yippee. If you town program called “Saginaw Arson Watch”"…it’s probably not a real great town.
2008 stats from February (ONE MONTH)
128 felony drug arrests
140 misdemeanor drug arrests
22 concealed weapons arrests
61 jailed drunken drivers
440 people driving on suspended licenses
112 suspects in other felonies
54 people accused of other misdemeanors.
1 out of every 50 paople in Saginaw got a MAJOR put on their record in February alone. (957)
Homicides previous year: 28
Murders/rape in last 10 years? `150, 700
Chances you die of murder in Saginaw in last 10 years: 1 in 333
Chances you got raped in Saginaw last 10 years (27K Women): 1 in 38
“Saying the crime here is rampant is a complete fallacy and outright lie” I eagerly await your definition of ‘rampant,’ like Tijuana style? Give me a example of a couple similar cities that so much worse?
May 27th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Of the 40 votes against HR5351, 39 were Republican.
I wonder why so many Republican Senators are against tax credits to the American People in our struggle to reduce & eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.
They were all in favor of granting a $100,000 Federal Tax Credit to small business if they purchase vehicles with a GVW (gross vehicle weight) of 6000 Lbs+ (SUV’s)
Are the Republicans aware that the terrorists receive funding directly from American petrodollars when we buy oil from the Middle East?
Who’s side are they on?
May 27th, 2008 at 11:56 am
#74 DaV8or
Thank you for digging a little deeper. You inform and advance the discussion.