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Honda Still Hasn’t Plugged in Yet
May 21st, 2008 | Posted in: Competitors, Hybrid
In the past Honda president Takeo Fukui has said lithium-ion batteries weren’t ready for cars yet, and that an E-REV like the Volt didn’t make sense (see post). His company also despite beating Toyota to the starting gate with its now defunct Insight, has been markedly losing the race to the Prius.
Amidst all the recent fuel efficiency and oil price headlines, Honda has now joined the crowd with its own hybrid announcements.
The automaker will be coming out with a low-cost hybrid based on the FCX clarity exterior design. They also intend to make a hybrid version of the Fit in 2010, the current ICE model of which is already the most fuel-efficient in its class.
However Honda is holding to its guns, and has no plans to compete in the plug-in hybrid arena. The most recent quote from Mr. Fukui, “We don’t necessarily think the plug-in hybrid is a very great idea,”
I beg to differ Sir.
Source (Businessweek)
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Related posts:
- Does Honda Lack “Clarity” on Their Thoughts About Plug-in Vehicles?
- Revenge of the Honda Insight
- Honda Says Chevy Volt Makes No Sense
- Who’s Got it Right, GM or Honda?
- Honda Tries to Re-enter Hybrid War With the “Global Small Hybrid”
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Posted by: Lyle
95 Responses to “Honda Still Hasn’t Plugged in Yet”
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pm
People always through history were afraid/put down of new ideas.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Honda must have been following GM’s lead.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Honda sees itself as an engine manufacturer, they sell engines which happen to have cars, motorbikes, garden machinery, propellers, micro CHP, etc., devices attached.
So electric motors are not a direction that they naturally want to go in.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:43 pm
I guess Honda is seeing the future differently then others: GM, Toyota, Nissan, Ford/Volvo, to only name those
May 21st, 2008 at 2:47 pm
I don’t know how the President of Honda can say that plug-in hybrids are not a good idea. In the age of lithium-ion batteries that are smaller, lighter and more energy-dense than previous generations of batteries and hold out the promise of being even more so in the future, I don’t think there’s any doubt that the E-Rev is a natural fit to the automobile. If we’re looking at a good 15 years before the hydrogen fuel cell technology is widely available, at least the plug in electric car provides hope in the age of peak oil. I think that even before plug-in cars are mass produced, they are showing that they have great potential to reduce dependence on foreign oil, reduce the balance of trade deficit significantly and improve air quality in big cities.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I was at the Green West Expo (greenwestexpo.com) today and saw a Prius plug in conversion and boy was it sweet. Looks like Honda is going to miss the boat. GO GM GO.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:59 pm
As many have pointed out here, if they come up with a viable sub-20K hybrid, they will be in a different market segment from the Volt. There is going to be demand for every extremely high mileage car which manufacturers can supply in the next few years, IMHO.
With a very small/light car and Honda’s hybrid technology, I can see them knocking on the door of 100 mpg.
Wasn’t it Steve McQueen in “Bullitt” who said, “You work your side of the street and I’ll work mine.”?
May 21st, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Honda has always been a conservative manufacturer. They prefer wait and see approach. They are usually the last ones coming up with a car in a specific segment, but often that car is a hit (Honda minivan is an example). They learn from other’s mistakes and improve their own version. If plug-ins succeed, Honda will make their own version that will be better than others.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:06 pm
I have owned several Honda cars and they have been great vehicles. But if Honda thinks that way, they will start changing their minds after GM, Toyota and the others “eat their lunch for them”. I had hopes that Honda would make it to the party with a plug-in model. Maybe they still will. They have been closed mouthed about their real plans in the past. Although I don’t see where this will get them but lost sales. I will look at their offering as a go-between car until the Volt arrives, if they offer something to compete with the Prius.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
noel park
Honda has said in the past they want to offer a car that will beat the Prius at a lower cost. I really hope they do. I would love to have a good Honda hybrid that got around 100 mpg. Honda is really good about working their side of the street.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:14 pm
#8 szyszek:
Wasn’t the Insight the first commercially available hybrid?
May 21st, 2008 at 3:17 pm
People that don’t like to change are going to left in the dust cause people can’t control the market. It seem Toyota made the right move, but made the wrong call on the idea of a non-plugin hybrid. Hopefully, Toyota will corrected the right call at the end of 2010. Otherwise, GM made the right move to change the way cars runs and hope it the right call for plug-in E-REV as well. Let see how it end at the end of 2011 to see who made the right call on the idea how cars system should work.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:24 pm
#11 noel park
Exception that proves the rule
They did something that they usually don’t do and got burned in the process. I wish Insight came out today, I would buy it now.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:27 pm
cybereye #12
GM made the correct call, I am sure. They will offer a strictly battery operated version of the Volt or some other “city” car after the Volt is selling good. I imagine they are working on that even now. GM knows they have to get back into the game or else they can pack up and go home. As far as I am concerned, I am pulling for the hometown team (GM) to beat the visiting team (the foreigners). I want an American company to become viable again. I have always been a Chevrolet owner up to the early 1990’s when quality feel through the floor. Now that Chevrolet is producing quality cars and trucks again, I am pulling for them with my heart and will do so with my pocket book just as soon as I can plunk down a deposit on a Volt.
Go on GM, you have a chance to start collecting cash now in the 6-digit and over values by letting us put down deposits. You can hold the money or spend it. Just keep my name on the short list for a new Volt.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:30 pm
szyszek #13
No, the Insight was not a good car when compared to the Prius. Honda pulled it because they did not want to compete in the hybrid market with a strictly hybrid. They were wrong. They should have improved the Insight and kept on selling it.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
#14 N Riley
I’ll put down my deposit too. I want GM to hit a home run with the Volt. I want GM to be the preeminent car company again and may I please buy one of the first Volts?
May 21st, 2008 at 3:36 pm
When I said “strictly hybrid” I did not mean to infer that the Civic and Accord hybrids were not hybrids. Honda thought they did not have to have a car that was designed as only a hybrid to compete with the Prius. Toyota was right and Honda was wrong. The Civic and Accord Hybrids just do not sell as well as a designed from scratch hybrid.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:39 pm
“I beg to differ Sir”
Lyle cracks me up.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Honda doesn’t obviously see that oil will run out, and will become so expensive that no one will be able to afford a gas powered car.
GM’s sees this, Tesla, Nissan, NEC, ZENN also..
No plug, no sale. period.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:03 pm
And the railroads had no interest in trucking. They didn’t realize they were in the freight business, not the Railroad business.
Honda and Toyota may seem dominant now, but the only thing that never changes is that everything will always change.
Guys, you’re in the personal transportation business, not the combustion engine business.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Why would anyone be satisfied with only 100 mpg. It is time we start demanding more and cars like the volt are the CORRECT path to the future… which incedentally should already be here, since the volt doesn’t need a huge battery to be better than anything on the market. E-Flex is simply superior even with a small battery.
As far as Honda’s leaders outlook on things, I just keep wondering how someone, especially in his position can be so stupid. I would say ignorant but in his position it can’t possibly be that he hasn’t been presented with the facts. It is mind boggling how a car that is superior in everyway still gets bashed by people that should know better. All the car manufacturers should be announcing their own future versions of the Volt… for all of their makes and models.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:28 pm
The quote from Honda sounds like should be followed by . . .
Gosh, Holy ‘Big Oil’ puppet, Batman!
Honda, THE I.C.E. AGE is past, time to move on with electric,, NOW
May 21st, 2008 at 4:55 pm
At 1st blush most would scoff at calling Honda a friend of Big Oil,
But just consider that Big Oil is making more profit on ONE gallon of gasoline sold today than they made selling FIVE gallons in 1998!
ANY thing that keeps gas burners on the road, even at 100 mpg is still a big win for BIG OIL.
We say, “NO PLUG, NO SALE !!!!”
May 21st, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Mark #19
“Honda doesn’t obviously see that oil will run out, and will become so expensive that no one will be able to afford a gas powered car.”
*** *** ****
The combustion engine has been very good, and profitable to Honda. It could very well be that they’re working on an EV and don’t want to show their hand, but I’ve got to believe their business plan is concentrated around the ICE.
What has been said about change and this industry is correct. Now more than ever the successful companies will be the ones that embrace it.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Hey Mr. Fukui, can you say oops?
May 21st, 2008 at 5:27 pm
#21 - I agree with Omegaman66 - 100 MPG? When the Volt gets unlimited MPG’s on trips less than 40 miles? Here we go again, comparing apples and oranges.
The Volt is a brand new concept in automobiles. The Prius cannot get 10 feet without gas. The Volt will go 40 miles without gas. So can we PLEASE stop comparing them? Thank you.
Once Volt sales take off, and parallel hybrid (Prius) sales drop, maybe the CEO’s of Toyota and Honda will see the logic of those inscrutable Americans at GM and produce their own plug-in models.
Remember, all through recent history, America has invented cool stuff, and Japan makes it smaller and more efficient. I can’t wait to see what Japan does with the Volt’s technology. The future’s so bright, a gotta wear shades.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:28 pm
The cycle of the for radical technology:
1) ridiculed by those who don’t understand it
2) subverted by those who recognize its threat
3) deemed self evident
May 21st, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Oops, the above was the cycle of acceptance for radical technology.
Anyway, it is sad that Honda can’t even recognize the North American consumer’s desire to plug their hybrids into the electric grid. Why are the Japanese so stubborn? Honda recognizes the ultimate acceptance of fuel cells, but they miss the plug in aspect?
May 21st, 2008 at 5:33 pm
I agree 100%
“NO PLUG, NO SALE !!!!”
May 21st, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Diesels are coming:
http://gas2.org/2008/05/21/clean-diesel-cars-coming-to-us-this-fall-2008-2010-timeline/
May 21st, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Honda doesn’t has A123 where as GM has A123.
If it is not A123, then plugin definitely won’t make sense as no other
battery offers the safety,power and life as A123.
So both Honda and GM are correct from their own perspective.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:05 pm
If you put the Chevy grille on the FCX, would it look a whole lot like the production Volt? I think maybe so.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:06 pm
The most recent quote from Mr. Fukui, “We don’t necessarily think the plug-in hybrid is a very great idea,”
Sounds very shortsighted to me.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:17 pm
“Chevy Volt, Charging Ahead !”
Go GM !
May 21st, 2008 at 6:27 pm
I am not going to buy a Honda. i am not an apologist for Honda. Anyone who has followed this blog knows that I am a strong GM supporter. I am just saying credit where credit is due, and GM had better pay close attention to the competition.
If there are zero (0) Volts available in 2009, and if Toyota can make what, 200,000 Priuses, and if Honda introduces a 50+ mpg, under $20K hybrid, and if gas stays above $4/gal, does anyone think that they might sell a lot of cars?
If there are 10,000 Volts available in 2010, same question?
If there are 60000 or even 100,000, Volts available in 2011, I would ask the same question again.
I mean, we sell over 13,000,000 cars in this country every year. When gas gets to $4, or even $5/gal, how many very high mileage cars will the market demand? A lot!
May 21st, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Hey Fukui-san, can you say “Fukup”?
May 21st, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Like I said the other day….
“The startup of Chevy Volt production will cause more panic in Tokyo than the reappearance of B-29’s or a GodZilla sighting.”
They have bet on the wrong technology…. and will lose.
That A123 Systems IPO looks pretty good to me.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:46 pm
#30 ThomDbhomb
and all those diesel cars that are coming out this Fall (that looked pretty attractive when gas and diesel were close in price) will be victims to some of the worst timing in history!
Diesel is already FIVE bucks a gallon where I live (well, $4.99 9/10
Sales will be sluggish, at best, with probably $5.50 or possibly $6 diesel by then washing out most of the admittedly impressive efficiency gains.
Anyway, I think it’s pretty clear why the Honda CEO said nothing more than they don’t think plug-ins are a good idea. Left to one’s imagniation one might think it was any of a number of reasons other than the fact that Honda’s IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) upon which all their hybrids are based can’t put out more than about 20hp and are stuck on the end of the ICE driveshaft with all those draggy pistons and cams and stuff attached
Even if you had infinite charge at your disposal, I doubt it would be possible to reduce the gas consumed much vs. their current hybrids. Certainly not nearly as much as the 60hp motors could in the Prius (let alone something with as much electrical motor oomph as the \Volt).
For Honda, plug-ins require bigger batteries AND bigger motors (and probably a move from the flywheel position) which implies a thorough redeisgn of the system and change of strategy. They are NOT going to build anything with a plug any time soon.
(I suppose they could morph their hybrid into something like Subaru’s SSHEV concept by adding another bigger motor into the transmission, but even Subaru isn’t going to build that and is looking at maybe something more like Honda’s IMA. Either way, big changes necessary to put a plug on a Honda.)
May 21st, 2008 at 7:07 pm
#38 DaveP
I don’t dispute that diesel is expensive. So is gasoline. Consumers are looking for affordable, fuel-efficient, low-emmisions vehicles. The diesels might find a niche for those that can’t hold out for a Volt. The VW TDI sport wagon will be out soon and get an estimated mileage of 33/46 m.p.g. The The VW TDI Sedan road tested at 60 MPG. All that for an estimated Base Price: $22,000 to $25,000.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:10 pm
#35 noel I agree, Honda will find a segment and do well in it. They have polished, nice cars, high reliability and efficient management. Their small cars are much nicer looking than those from GM, and much more fully equipped. We should pay close attention to what Honda does and says. No, we should not always agree with Honda, but neither should we underestimate them. They have won over a loyal cadre of customers with excellent products, and these customers will lean Honda’s way for a long time to come.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:13 pm
>> The Prius cannot get 10 feet without gas. The Volt will go 40 miles
>> without gas. So can we PLEASE stop comparing them?
PLEASE stop spreading false information about Prius.
You know quite well that the system is capable of delivering up to 62.1 MPH without any gas. That information has been posted here many times.
Also, do a search for “running out of gas”. You’ll find a number of reports of owners driving several miles without any.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Honda shareholders had better find a new Boss before it’s
too late. This guy is a liability with his lack of vision. If they
won’t join the party, they’ll be a footnote in history.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I Have a Clean VW Diesel Touareg. While it’s 5,600 pounds and a V10 Twin Turbo I still get 28 MPG on the open road.
And makes ULEV emissions. Great Stuff.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:38 pm
#11
Honda is still “licking their wounds” over the Insight. It was too radical to gain a wide deomgraphic.
Based on the number of sales, Toyota’s hybrid design has gained wider acceptance than all other hybrid designs combined. And Ford and Nissan is using Toyota’s design, also. Patent laws at work…it hurts the use of a design since other manufacturers would have to license it…if possible.
Of course, it encourages other auto companies to create an even better design. The E-FLEX is so different that it is difficult to compare it to other designs. Cost is a BIG one though. VOLT production should help with battery costs…so the designs that use significantly smaller battery packs will benefit for cost comparisons to non-hybrid vehicles.
At some point, I predict that the debate of hybrid cost will be laid to rest.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:40 pm
I don’t buy it for one minute that Honda is not developing a plug in hybrid. They just aren’t saying so publicly. They just think that the batteries for plug-in hybrids like the Volt are too expensive right now … which they are. But it is just a snapshot in time. Who knows what the battery prices will be in 2011 or 2012?
I tell you what, if the battery manufacturers get those factories built in a hurry, the costs of the battery for serial hybrids like the Volt MIGHT come down fairly quick. Guess who’s going to be there to get most of the sales if and when that happens? GM.
GM (and maybe Nissan) will be the guys who sell the high tech new E-REV “series hybrids” by the million like Toyota is with the Prius these days. 150 mpg sure beats the 48 mpg you get with the Prius. The performance of the Volt should be appealing to a lot of American car buyers who expect decent performance from their cars. The 0-60 mph performance of 7-8 seconds for the Volt ain’t bad … especially with the smooth electric drive torque all the way up to highway speeds. People are going to love that nice, quiet, smooth electric drive and no gears changing from a transmission. The Volt doesn’t have a transmission!
If GM could somehow get the price of the Volt down to $28,000 or so, they could sell a LOT of them … millions … all the Volts they can produce from the factories. The Prius costs $25,000 these days I hear. By not developing a series hybrid like the Volt, Honda is gambling that the batteries for the Volt won’t come down in price. Maybe GM has some insider knowledge from their battery suppliers and they KNOW that they can lower the costs of the batteries by say mid 2011. A big Christmas sale of Volts in 2011 with new, lower prices? It might happen. Then the Volt could REALLY take off in popularity.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
GM, go, go, go, GM Volt is mainly based on battery technology, here is the facts: GM’s battery experts suck, Steve, Nazri, Paul, etc….. they are not that good, one GM guy said this crap: We can make a pure EV if the battery cost is reasonable, he think it is OK to charge the battery in 10 min to get 80% capacity, well, this is not going to happen because a 40 Kwh can’t be charged in 10 min, the heating issue is just way too big to handle by any means!.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:38 pm
The president of Honda would say this about his competition. The Volt is the car of the future.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Hey, I’m glad Honda doesn’t see the light. This will be one less competitor for the domestic. It could be Honda is not in the game because they do not have the battery capable to compete. No sense building battery car if you don’t have a good enough battery.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:48 pm
This is going to be one hell of a showdown.
The next 3 years is going to be exciting to watch.
Tesla vs Fisker.
Gm EFlex vs Toyota Plug-in
We here at GM-Volt will have a front row seat.
Gentlemen - place yer bets…
May 21st, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Maybe I will buy a Honda generator as a range extender for my ELECTRIC CAR!
May 21st, 2008 at 9:02 pm
#46 GM Guys:
I read your post 3 times and it makes no sense. I can’t figure out what you are trying to say …other than GM bashing and throwing out incorrect information. You also may want to run spell and grammar check before you post.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Honda has been stung badly in the hybrid market. They can’t seem to get it right.
They were first to come out with the hybrid Insight in N. America. But wait, that was a 2 seater, very small light car. Great mileage but a very limited following. That was a mistake that GM made years earlier.
Then, there was the Civic hybrid, which gets 40/45 mpg. Pretty darn good, yet the Prius beats it out with a similar price yet 48/45 (20% better city mileage). Also, there is no excitement to driving the Civic, as the hybrid stuff is seemless to the driver. Here again, the Prius, with user feedback, etc. definitely tells the driver know how well he is doing. In head-to-head competition, most people preferred the Prius.
There’s also the Honda Accord Hybrid. Here, Honda misjudged the market, again, and came up with a car with greater HORSEPOWER but 25/34 mpg. This, while Toyota came out with the Camry hybrid @ 40/38 mpg. Given the 2 cars which compete head-to-head, you can see why Accord kept losing to Camry, and eventually Accord hybrid was retired, along with the Insight.
I had been waiting to see what they would do about a PHEV, but there attitude is that that technology is a “fad”.
With 22,000 plus signed up on Lyle’s list, for a car that won’t be out for at least 2 years… Hard to call it a “fad”.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:41 pm
From what I can intelligently speculate about Honda’s lack of support of PHEVs:
- I think Honda had a bad experience with the Insight’s battery (a friend’s Insight has had 2 replacement batteries)
- Perhaps Honda is locked into a battery supplier in their Keiretsu which simply doesn’t have the right Lithium technology
- Or they don’t know the Prius engineering trick of shallow cycling the battery to radically improve it’s life (a HEV/PHEV battery should be 2x the capacity actually utilized so the battery has minimum stress). I know many Prius owners and none have had battery problems.
GM is doing this with the Volt (16KWh battery, 8KWh usable energy x ~4 miles/KWh=32miles+ All electric Range)
- perhaps Honda, like BMW is culturally an IC engine company (and a highly capable one at that)..and they have influential decision makers who aren’t fully bought into the electrification of the automobile like
Bob Lutz and GM are.
- Honda advocates Hydrogen as the solution.. But generating Hydrogen for FCVs has worse Well-to-Wheel C02 particularly using their natural gas based filling station to generate H2. And no one has an H2 generating algae or 4th generation high temperature nuclear reactors to cleanly generate H2.
Honda claims to be concerned with PHEVs increasing CO2 emissions generation of electricity. But these assertions are refuted by NRDC and PNNL data for the US market. Plus many additional major markets (such as France and Japan) generate most of their electricity from zero CO2 emitting nuclear.. and wind is becoming
an increasing portion of the mix. If Honda is as concerned about coal plants in India and China as they say they are, then they could simply not sell their PHEV in the markets with dirtier electricity and still have huge PHEV market opportunities across the globe. Additionally, Honda won’t publish their own data to back up their questionable assertions.
Unfortunately for our progress toward energy security, improving the trade deficit, overall CO2 emissions through mass adoption of PHEVs, it looks like a high caliber organization such as Honda will turn out to be a PHEV laggard while GM, Nissan, Toyota, Ford all beat them to the market with PHEVs.
Once it is obvious they should have a PHEV product, then they can claim that despite their reservations, the marketplace demanded it. But this is clearly not the kind of leadership that Honda has demonstrated in the past.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:55 pm
As always, why does it have to be honda will see the light when GM blows it’s doors off? Or why is it that Hunda will own GM for that matter. It’s ludicrious to say such things.
As Noel mentioned…and this is the point. 13 MILLION CARS a year we sell in North America alone…what 50 MILLION worldwide?
May 21st, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Historicaly Honda is slow to go to market with their technology even with their advanced superior design for diesel engines, where are they? The design makes the VW TDI look crude. They indeed are engine designers & builders. Every race car in the Indy 500 is Honda powered. By the time they wait and see what the EV market will be they will more than a few laps behind.
Well said Lyle
May 21st, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Also…I’d like to mention the Honda president is totally right. There is no track record of a viable EV/lithium application. I hope the Volt (or anything else for that matter) will the car to stop the trend…evident from the massive wake of past unsuccessful EV models, nameplates, companys, etc.
We look at success as, “Huzzah! A Volt mule! They are really going to built it!”
Thats not the real world. Everything is about the buck. You have to look at it from the auto exec point of view. “Can we build it? Can we sell it? Can we make money?” If we measure the prospects for success for the Volt on this basis (rather than ‘just coming to market’) the outlook is actually really grim.
How many Volts would they have to sell to break even? Considering they expect the price to market/development to be north of a billion…and currently they lose money on every Buick they sell at $30K.
By my guess, just to get their original investment back, and to cover the carrying costs of that 1 billion+ for the 4 years to market, they would have to sell 300,000-500,000 copies…and who says GM can make a $1 on each of them, even if they can produce 500k? They have no track record (in this millenium) of being able to produce a car…and a profit at the same time.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:11 pm
11 Noel said: “Wasn’t the Insight the first commercially available hybrid?”
The Prius was the first commercially available hybrid, available in Japan in 1997. Honda did beat Toyota to the US market, shipping the Insight in 1999 almost a year before an upgraded Prius launched.
Honda’s IMA minimizes the cost of the electric drivetrain. Battery, motor and power electronics are all smaller and thus cheaper than Toyota’s HSD. But HSD eliminates the transmission, offsetting the cost of those beefier electrical pieces. Total drive train cost is thus similar for the two systems, but HSD’s stronger electrical pieces deliver a bigger MPG boost. Toyota thus gets more bang for roughly the same buck. It’s a little confusing why Honda has stayed with IMA so long despite its obvious shortcomings.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pm
2009 Chevrolet Beat BAS+ 50+ MPG (New 1.2 liter Ecotec Turbo Four), 2009 Chevrolet Aveo BAS+ 50+ MPG (New 1.4 liter Ecotec Turbo Four Etc. To name a few.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Honda would put all of their eggs in the basket labeled “Hydrogen”..
May 21st, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Also Two Mode Hybrid in these Lambda Platforum, 2009 Saturn Vue Two Mode Plug in Hybrid System, etc. But Gm is not looking.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:47 pm
GM’s BAS+ System is going to have a litium ion battery, New Ecotec Four Cylinder and be put on small/medium/compact cars.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:09 pm
#59, Adam,
You are correct - let’s hope their push gets more infrastructure built, which will help support sales of Volt’s with the fuel cell range extender.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Now this looks good.
http://www.gameshout.com/tech/chevy_volt_electric_vehicle_by_2010/article2234.htm
Take Care
Arch
May 21st, 2008 at 11:19 pm
I guess Honda would feel that way. While the Insight was quite a novel machine, it only had two seats. The FCX Clarity may be advanced but hydrogen takes more energy to produce than it expels. Then there’s the issue that all those farmers getting government subsidies for corn won’t go down without a fight. California is the only state that has hydrogen refueling stations…but what about the other 49 + territories?
May 21st, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Hydrogen is DOA. Why waste electricity producing H2 only to put it back in your car and then convert it back to electricity? There is so much lost everywhere. Not to mention that it’s extremely expensive and the technology still isn’t viable. Then there’s the whole infrastructure problem.
EVs will kill H2 and it’s only a matter of progression.
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:06 am
Gm Has
“‘Project Drive Away” Hydrogen Fuel Cell Chevrolet Equinox’s, 50,000 people has sign up for, 1.500 car’s on the road and counting with these 4th Generation Hydrogen Fuel Cell System. These 5th Generation Hydrogen Fuel Cell will be on the E Flex Plug In Drive System in 2,010-2,011 year.
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:32 am
I don’t think most of you are being fair to Honda. They are the premier engineering car company in Japan. There is a saying in Japan. The top 5% of graduating engineering students get recruited by Honda. The next 5% by Toyota. The remainder go to the other manufacturers. So what could be the reason Honda does not want to pursue PHEV? Two reasons. One, a hybrid is an electric car that pollutes. This is a contradiction in the Honda culture. So what makes the all hydrogen full cell a winner in Honda’s mind despite all the reasons all of you have given? For reason two, Honda will not need the “gas station” paradigm. It will use exactly what a PEV will use but instead of electricity Honda will sell a Home Refueling Station. Just like they do with the natural gas powered Civic. You will refuel your Honda fuel cell car at home. There will be no need for a hydrogen refueling infrastructure that mirrors the gasoline paradigm.
And if you need a third reason, a hybrid is simply too expensive. It has two powerplants. Honda sees this also. Why both instead of either/or?
But I, along with all of you, see this as a rare mistake by Honda. Battery technology is at a tipping point. Maybe Honda will have an electric car once maybe the nanotechnology Stanford battery is actually in production and a 4000 pound, 5 seat, four door can EASILY go 200+ miles on a charge or EEstor’s supercapacitor technology is a reality. I think battery/supercapacitor will overtake fuel cell technology to give us a 200+ mile range/quick charge electric car before fuel cells can deliver 100,000 mile longevity/price competitive fuel cells.
Think about it. (As so many of you already have!)
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 am
#39 ThombDbhomb
I too am impressed with the upcoming diesels (and I think Honda’s diesel that synthesizes it’s own urea compounds for blu-tec effect without extra “fuel” is way cool) but the harsh reality (at least around here) is that diesel is going up in cost way faster than gasoline. I should have mentioned that while diesel is five bucks, regular unleaded is four, here. A few years ago, diesel was cheaper than regular, a couple years ago it was a little bit more, but now it’s 25% more! So even at today’s prices if a diesel wants to be attractive on fuel cost it really has to do better than 60mpg, impressive though that is. By this fall, I wouldn’t be surprised if the price overhead for diesel fuel to reach 30% or maybe more based on how fast I’ve seen it rising over the last year.
Granted, buying cars is not all about the $$ savings on fuel but selling diesels th the US mass market has always been an uphill battle… A wallet payoff at the pump would have been a very useful boost for their sales. I just don’t see that happening, anymore.
The economics for them would have been SOOO much more favorable for them even just a year ago.
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:25 am
57 (doggydogworld) and 11 Noel
I believe the reason Honda sticks to IMA is because Honda sees a hybrid not as an electric/gas powered car but a gas powered car with an “electric turbocharger” so to say. Instead of more horsepower (with more gas useage and pollution) the powerplant is augmented by the electric motor.
I wish Toyota still had its white paper on the Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD). As opposed to Honda which sees electric drive as just an augment to a gasoline powered engine, Toyota sees the HSD system the same way as GM sees E-flex. In other words the Prius really is an electric car; version 1.0. As technology progresses the electric system will do a greater and greater portion of propelling the car. The Toyota white paper stated the HSD will enable an electric car with an auxiliary power unit. Currently that is a gas internal combustion engine. In the future it could be a fuel cell or almost anything else. The key is the transmission (of all things!) This enables electric/APU power in any combination. Clever. (And patented hence GM’s current two-mode system.)
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 am
Honda believes the Volt is a compromise; the worst of electric and gas vehicles. That is a very obvious and easy argument to make.
It is one thing to go on message boards and focus on the best rumours and bury your head in the sand when it comes to the real problems. But GM should know better. When faced with the reality of a choice between an $~18K FCX-like hybrid that gets 50MPG (?) and selling an expected 250,000 units in 2009 and a $~40K Volt that gets ~30 miles electric for the average person (and then <50MPG for the remainder) available in late 2010 with 10,000 units, well, who is “ignorant and stupid”?
GM continues to miss the mark. At once they have managed to be late to the game and too early with a concept. The result is a compromised niche product that is sure to be a failure.
Honda will move to the plug-in hybrid when the time is right. It clearly isn’t right now and I applaud Honda for continuing to do what is right and not follow GM’s misguided Prius-envy lead.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:46 am
The new battery technology that is enabling the practical electric car is all being invented in this country and patented. Even the Prius range extender pack is A123 tech. The nano tech batteries are going to improve rapidly, A123 is just the beginning. Prior to the A123 there really was nothing that was rugged, had the charge density and life to be viable. A123 was the turning point, but already there is research going well past it.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:02 am
#19 Mark said “Honda doesn’t obviously see that oil will run out, and will become so expensive that no one will be able to afford a gas powered car.”
Perhaps they would get the message if the oil spicket from the Alaska pipeline were shut off!
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:17 am
People continue to miss the brillance of the Volts design. Sure a lower mpg car at half the cost will sell more than a 40K dollar Volt. But the VOLT is not the ONLY way to make a volt style car.
Who here believes that toyota can’t market a volt drive train for less than GM?
Yes the e-flex from GM cost more and my post anyway that bash HONDA for being stupid stand because the beauty of the Volt drive train is that it is ultimitely CHEAPER!!!!! The reason the volt is more expensive to make (not research) than a prius is largely because of the battery!!! As I have said all along. Forget the freaking battery. Put in a 2KW battery and you still have a vehicle that is better than a prius and can be produced for a whole lot less than the current volt.
And if you look forward and it is a long range big win over time because as supercaps and batteries improve the all electric distance can be increased with no increase in cost. Or if hondas belief in fuel cells pans out then bam simply put one of those on the volt immediately. No real new engineering needed.
Basically right now we here need to realize that the volt is basically on par with the prius but has the added benefit of large batteries and the added cost to offset that benefit. But the benefit for future models will always be there whereas the added cost will slowly or quickly disepate.
Think past the Volt 1.0
My post might seem like I am a blinded GM fan and want honda and toyota to wallow in their mistakes. But that is not the case. I want competition. I realize GM is bloated and if GM can pull off a great car I believe eventually the japanese will do it cheaper… therefore more successfully.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:29 am
People continue to miss the brillance of the Volts design. Sure a lower mpg car at half the cost will sell more than a 40K dollar Volt. But the VOLT is not the ONLY way to make a volt style car.
Who here believes that toyota can’t market a volt drive train for less than GM?
Yes the e-flex from GM cost more and my post anyway that bash HONDA for being stupid stand because the beauty of the Volt drive train is that it is ultimitely CHEAPER!!!!! The reason the volt is more expensive to make (not research) than a prius is largely because of the battery!!! As I have said all along. Forget the battery. Put in a 2KW battery and you still have a vehicle that is better than a prius and can be produced for a whole lot less than the current volt.
And if you look forward and it is a long range big win over time because as supercaps and batteries improve the all electric distance can be increased with no increase in cost. Or if hondas belief in fuel cells pans out then bam simply put one of those on the volt immediately. No real new engineering needed.
Basically right now we here need to realize that the volt is basically on par with the prius but has the added benefit of large batteries and the added cost to offset that benefit. But the benefit for future models will always be there whereas the added cost will slowly or quickly disepate.
Think past the Volt 1.0
My post might seem like I am a blinded GM fan and want honda and toyota to wallow in their mistakes. But that is not the case. I want competition. I realize GM is bloated and if GM can pull off a great car I believe eventually the japanese will do it cheaper… therefore more successfully.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:40 am
It’s possible that Honda and GM both are right. Honda is doing well and can keep doing well by doing what they do now. For GM the Volt is a breakout design that (if well executed) will revolutionize thinking about GM cars in the mind of the people of the world, and within GM as well. Near term, there are only so many auto-size Li-ion batteries, so there is the potential for highly successful products from Honda (with high mileage ICE) and from GM (with Volt etc) within a rapidly changing car market. Toyota will do well. The squeeze is on everyone else.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:52 am
Interesting about the FIT hybrid. Right now, there is no sub-compact hybrid choice. I’m glad to see one of thes holes in the market getting filled. I hope that GM and others will continue to look for holes to fill at an affordable price.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:17 am
I hear you on the filling of holes. I wish we could get some comments from GM on the feasibility of a chevy truck with the volt style drive system. Air resistance seems to be a bigger problems with electric than the weight issue in terms of miles per charge??? Torque is better in a electric motor than an ICE! How big of an electric motor would be needed to have a truck that can pull a large boat or tractor? What are the hurdles if any that need to be overcome that are different than for the Volt?
Not everyone that drives a truck is in love with the gas guzzler they drive. I think a truck that got even just 10 to 12 miles per charge would cut my fuel consumption in half. Charging at work (haha) would cut out almost completely except for the occasional long trips.
How about it Lyle? Get us this interview! Some of us want a truck!
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:28 am
#75 Omegaman66
I agree with you. I’d love to have an S-10 sized truck or slightly larger with a Volt drive train and technology. I’ll buy my Volt and have the pickup for doing stuff around the house and occasional hauling.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:37 am
Just goes to show you where GM and Honda sit at the table with their cards. Honda loves the idea of Hydrogen, and GM does too. Now if they would of put all that money into battery technolgy, we’d have 200+ miles pure EV.
Instead, that STILL want us to be dependent on some sor of fuel, including natural gas. Natural gas won’t be here forever, so why build a car to run on it?
They still want us to be raped by the government for high fuel prices, but they won’t pursue battery technolgy like Hydrogen though. What really gets under my skin, is the fact the battery pack from the old EV1 and the pack from the volt look to be the same size…. The EV1 (NiMH) had a 120 mile range, and the volt will only do ~40 miles? Come on guys, this doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this out!!!!!!!
It would be next to impossible for GM to introduce an all electric EV, at least in big numbers, we need to be sure OPEC, Bush, Cheney, and whoever has their slimy mits involved in oil get their BILLIONS of dollars, they may go bankrupt!!!!! When is enough money enough?! Bill Gates is rich, but I commend him, at least it’s not on oil!
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:46 am
I see 2 major reasons for GM competitors to feel that plug-ins are not ready, the batteries and the drivetrain.
I think it has been discussed at great length on this forum that the battery technology for the Volt must be a significant leap forward. Some auto manufacturers may not have looked too seriously at Li-Ion batteries (i.e. maybe Honda did evaluations based only on laptop style Li-Ion batteries from Japan) If GM has been diligent, and identified key battery chemistries that are well-suited to automotive drive applications, then they may well be far ahead of the competition.
The second key component for an efficient EV (which the Volt is, with a range extending ICE) is an efficient drivetrain. One of the reasons the EV-1 was so popular was that it had good performance and was fun to drive. It received far more attention in its day than all other EV’s combined. Much of this credit goes to its sophisticated drivetrain.
I expect the Volt’s drivetrain to be even more powerful and efficient, with permanent magnet motors and the next generation of power electronics. This will also increase efficiency, which is key to not only minimize the power draw from the battery pack, but also to maximize the energy return from the regen braking.
The drivetrain efficiency is another area where I believe GM will demostrate a huge advantage over the competition.
Let’s face reality, GM has done more than any major automotive manufacturer to advance the technology of EV’s, and obviously they have used this knowledge in the Fuel Cell Equinox’s, and will now take it to the next level in the Volt.
GM has caught the other manufacturers, including Honda and Toyota, by surprise.
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:00 am
#78 BillR
I agree completely. Everyone should watch Jay Leno driving and demonstrating the Tesla on the road. The torque it has and the speed at which it is able to pull away from an ICE powered BMW is fun to watch. He comments on the fact that there is no engine noise except for a slight whine and wind noise.
Here’s the link. It’s worth watching.
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=229378
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:01 am
Well, to be honest, they could easily compete with the Volt without being a plug-in IF the car was both under 20,000 and could offer 75-100 mpg, which is NOT implausible nowadays. If you had those two in one vehicle, I’d buy it! That’s why I like the VentureOne as well, though it’s in a totally different category. Actually, I want both a Volt AND that, but I have my doubts as to it’s production viability…at least the Volt is going to come out soon and requires no gas at all for a while.
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:07 am
78 Bill R…. “I expect the Volt’s drivetrain to be even more powerful and efficient, with permanent magnet motors and the next generation of power electronics.”
Interesting that you say this because the GM 2 Mode systems use permanent magnet motors. What kinds of efficiency improvements are achievable over the best AC motors now in use, Bill?
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:05 am
Even though I would prefer to buy American from GM, I would like Honda to start developing a series hybrid like the Volt. I want the costs of the series hybrid batteries to get cheaper FASTER. I want to deal with the world’s addiction to oil FASTER … and clean up the environment FASTER. I don’t want to have to wait 10-15 years for really good lithium ion batteries to get affordable for lower income people. Gas prices might be $10-12 per gallon in 5 years for all we know! That’s insane. That would cause some serious damage to economies all over the world … not to mention the potential for political and military instabilities. We might have riots in the street for all we know.
More car companies building more series hybrids will help get those big battery factories built sooner. The more worldwide manufacturing capacity for batteries, the cheaper they’ll get. I’d like to see those A123 or LGChem batteries get down closer to $4,000 instead of $10,000 … which is what they cost right now I hear.
Honda already has a lot of expertise at building gas powered electricity generators. They might could simply get one of their generators off the shelf and drop it into a series hybrid car they are developing.
Later on in the next 10 years …. if and when the hydrogen fuel cells ever get cheap enough and more hydrogen pumps get put in place, they could just pull out the IC engine and replace it with the fuel cell. The main car architecture would stay the same. That’s the idea behind E-flex.
Who cares HOW you make the electricity to charge the battery. As long as the battery charger device is relatively cheap, that’s the main thing. The major advantage of the fuel cell is that it is THE ultimate in environmental friendliness assuming you get the hydrogen from a low CO2 source like water.
People with fuel cell cars won’t be blamed for getting their electricity from a coal plant. Fuel cell cars make a lot of sense for China with all their pollution since they keep building a lot more NEW coal plants for some damn reason. Too bad your average Chinese guy might never be able to afford one.
Fuel cell cars need to get a LOT cheaper before we even think about hydrogen infrastructure and hydrogen pumps. When Honda says they can build a fuel cell car for about $60,000 …. THEN I’ll start getting a little bit enthusiastic about it. Right now, I hear fuel cell cars cost at least $300,000. That’s not even thinkable for most rich people. Maybe a few Middle East oil shiek fatcats who have their own Airbus A380 planes perhaps.
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 am
Even though I would prefer to buy American from GM, I would like Honda to start developing a series hybrid like the Volt. I want the costs of the series hybrid batteries to get cheaper FASTER. I want to deal with the world’s addiction to oil FASTER … and clean up the
environment FASTER. I don’t want to have to wait 10-15 years for really good lithium ion batteries to get affordable for lower income people. Gas prices might be $10-12 per gallon in 5 years for all we know! That’s insane. That would cause some serious damage to economies all over the world … not to mention the potential for political and military instabilities. We might have riots in the street for all we know.
More car companies building more series hybrids will help get those big battery factories built sooner. The more worldwide manufacturing capacity for batteries, the cheaper they’ll get. I’d like to see those A123 or LGChem batteries get down closer to $4,000 instead of $10,000 … which is what they cost right now I hear.
Honda already has a lot of expertise at building gas powered electricity generators. They might could simply get one of their generators off the shelf and drop it into a series hybrid car they are developing.
Later on in the next 10 years …. if and when the hydrogen fuel cells ever get cheap enough and more hydrogen pumps get put in place, they could just pull out the IC engine and replace it with the fuel cell. The main car architecture would stay the same. That’s the idea behind E-flex.
Who cares HOW you make the electricity to charge the battery. As long as the battery charger device is relatively cheap, that’s the main thing. The major advantage of the fuel cell is that it is THE ultimate in environmental friendliness assuming you get the hydrogen from a low CO2 source like water.
People with fuel cell cars won’t be blamed for getting their electricity from a coal plant. Fuel cell cars make a lot of sense for China with all their pollution since they keep building a lot more NEW coal plants for some stupid reason. Too bad your average Chinese guy might never be able to afford one.
Fuel cell cars need to get a LOT cheaper before we even think about hydrogen infrastructure and hydrogen pumps. When Honda says they can build a fuel cell car for about $60,000 …. THEN I’ll start getting a little bit enthusiastic about it. Right now, I hear fuel cell cars cost at least $300,000. That’s not even thinkable for most rich people. Maybe a few Middle East oil shiek fatcats who have their own Airbus A380 planes perhaps.
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:19 am
#67 DaveP
Point taken. Here is a link concerning gasoline and diesel prices
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:07 am
#82 Nasaman
Well, Nasaman, you’ve made me dig back into my archives, but here is an article on PM motors that I think you will find interesting.
http://www.allbusiness.com/defense-aerospace/defense-industry-defense/6229341-1.html
Note that I myself am not an expert on electric motors, however, I have been following some of the developments in electric drive. A defense contractor, DRS, claims that PM motors are 1-2% more efficient at full load, and 10-15% more efficient at partial load. Note that their large motor for ship propulsion is 99.3% efficient!
Note, I have seen this 36.5 MW motor from DRS, and it is quite impressive.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:21 am
#58 Speedy:
Are you saying that those cars are actually coming? If so, where do I get one? Or, are you suggesting that GM should build them? If so, I totally agree.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:38 am
It seems to me like more and more Honda and Toyota are currently making the same types of mistakes that GM made in the early hybrid days.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:00 pm
In reply to #41, john1701a, re: Driving a Prius on electric only. Here is the FAQ from Toyota.
13. Can Prius run on electricity when it runs out of gas?
No. Though Prius can operate in electric-only mode when gasoline is in the tank, it is not designed to run without gasoline. Doing so could cause severe damage to the hybrid system, so drivers should be sure to keep gas in the tank at all times.
This faq can be viewed at http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2008/prius/faq.html
So we are still comparing apples and oranges. Please note that I am not flaming Prius owners. They still rule for best MPG in gasoline cars. The Volt is simply a different breed of car.
The best thing to compare the Volt to is a diesel locomotive. Both use an ICE to generate electric, to turn wheels connected to electric motors. Some locomotives have battery packs to help move the train, an even closer comparison to the Volt.
I hope this helps.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:01 pm
#74 Omegaman said <i>”the beauty of the Volt drive train is that it is ultimitely CHEAPER!!!!!”</i>
This is not correct. E-Flex is elegant and flexible (thus the name), but not cheap. Serial requires the highest investment in motor/generators and power electronics. Serial is simpler and gives designers more freedom in stuff like generator type and location.
Today’s systems (HSD, IMA, Two-mode, BAS, E-Flex) each have different strengths and weaknesses and are chosen to match the needs of specific applications. The most cost effective EREV system I’ve seen is the one I believe BYD chose. It’s tricky to get right, but it could match Volt’s performance with half the motor cost, 35% lower power electronics cost and slightly less expensive batteries. These are significant savings, though they come at the cost of design flexibility. BYD can’t put the ICE anywhere they please like GM can nor can they easily swap in a fuel cell or something.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 pm
omegaman66
”
And if you look forward and it is a long range big win over time because as supercaps and batteries improve the all electric distance can be increased with no increase in cost. Or if hondas belief in fuel cells pans out then bam simply put one of those on the volt immediately. No real new engineering needed.
Basically right now we here need to realize that the volt is basically on par with the prius but has the added benefit of large batteries and the added cost to offset that benefit. But the benefit for future models will always be there whereas the added cost will slowly or quickly disepate.”
Thank you for bringing this up again. Although said before, it bears repeating every once in a while. THE WORST VALUE PROPOSITION E-FLEX VEHICLE WILL BE THE FIRST GENERATION VOLT.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Sorry, malfunctioning mouse posted my partially cooked thought.
The technology will advance rapidly in the first few generations of E-Flex. GM is on the steep part of the learning curve.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:04 pm
I am on the pre-order for this book.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Vehicle/Seth-Leitman/e/9780071543736/?itm=2
I travel intercity to 5 appointments a day. Today is the very 1st time I went past 100 miles, but go over 40 every day. If Tesla or some company does not make an all-electric mid-sized car (as I’m over 6 ft & 250 lbs) that reaches 150 miles to the charge soon, I will be building my own near maintenance free all electric car. Leave the expense of oil canges, radiater flushes, exaust maintenance, fuel injection cleaning, transmision flushes, etc. out!!!!! I don’t want a more complicated system with more things that can go wrong. I’d much rather have an all electic at that can get more miles than a more complex flex fuel vehicle that only goes 40 & relies on an ICE afterwards to charge the battery.
June 1st, 2008 at 3:37 pm
GM, Honda & Toyota all know that with plug-ins, the money now generated by replacement parts along with maintenance money will be virtually eliminated. Worse, the *%^! plug-ins will take forever to wear out. If they build the lost revenue into the cost of a plug-in, it is possible that they will be unable to sell at a price most customers would be willing to pay. None of the car manufacturers make much on their smallest models now. They all want to continue to sell behemoths as they bring in the largest profit margins, not because they are stupid. Finally, research indicates gas-hogs are actually LESS safe in accidents than the average car. Funny, the car manufacturers aren’t advertising this…