AND 
The Chevy Volt Mule Schedule: Final Integration Vehicles to Appear in 2009
I just had the opportunity to interview Micky Bly who is GM’s director of hybrid vehicle integration. He runs the team that will integrate all the subsystems in the Volt to make it a pleasantly drivable and cohesive machine.
I asked him about the Volt development vehicle schedule.
He explained to me the the Volt will eventually come into being in three distinct developmental vehicle stages, or "build phases".
The car that’s currently running with the lithium-ion pack is one of about a "handful" of cars that he calls EDV’s or engineering development vehicles. These cars, with Malibu shells, are for testing various functions of the final Volt. There are battery cars, ride and handling units, ones for propulsion systems, brakes, and steering. These are intended to analyze the behavior of and to get specific subsystems working. They are not complete vehicle tests but to go prove individual subsystems.
Next up are the true mule vehicles, or ARM’s, and are whole vehicles with all of the systems coming together. They contain a lot of hand built parts, but are "design intent". Those will arrive at the end of 2008, and will typically be run for about a year, because that’s about how long they can last from a mechanical standpoint due to their rough hand-made nature. There will be "a couple of dozen of these", and some of these cars will have the approximate final Volt physical design.
The final phase cars are called the integration vehicles. These look and act for all intents and purposes nearly exactly the same as the production cars. This phase brings every thing together from a "pleasability, driveabilty, fuel certification, fuel economy, and EV" standpoint. Final surfaces are on those vehicles so we’ll know what they’ll look like. All the final aero and wind tunnel work can be done with them. They are the last phase until going into production in the manufacturing plant after that. These are very high fidelity vehicles and they will run beyond the production date.
Bly can "say confidently the integration vehicles will make their appearance in the 2009 calendar year" and will be built in some significant quantity. These cars are street legal and may be used in a captured test fleet for selected GM employees to gather real-world data.
So, in a way, it looks like there will be Chevy Volts on the roads in 2009.
128 Responses to “The Chevy Volt Mule Schedule: Final Integration Vehicles to Appear in 2009”
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:00 am
I got the first post!
….Death to OPEC!
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:19 am
2009 we’ll see the Intergrated Vehicles. I wonder what they will be showing at the Paris Auto show?
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:30 am
I can hardly wait to see a small fleet of them! The pace accelerates and I want one here in Mid-Michigan.
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:31 am
I’m sure these “Integration Vehicles” will be the first of millions….TENS OF MILLIONS
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:07 am
Lyle,
Thanks for getting this schedule. While most of us would like to have a Volt this year, we now have a timeline by which gauge the progress of the Volt’s development. Patience!
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:07 am
I like articles with specific information.
This was a good article!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess it looks like GM is above 95% sure they are going to build this car, don’t you think?
Now how do we get GM to have a “Project Driveway” for the Volt?
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Lyle,
Since the Fuel Cell Equinox has “Project Driveway”, perhaps you can lobby GM to do “Project Garage” or “Project Plug-in”. I’m sure there are many volunteers on this site who would like to drive an integration vehicle next year.
Sounds to me like the end of 2010 for start of production should be readliy accomplished, barring any unforseen problems (or as Bob Lutz says, “We don’t know what we don’t know).
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Death to OPEC? Yeah that would be a good thing, lets see them try and eat/drink their oil when we don’t need it and won’t buy it. The arab states import a lot of their food.
More importantly death to oil as a transportation fuel. Hello electricity and a renewable future.
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:19 am
Very good news. I expect a media blitz in 2009.
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:22 am
I still think startups can (or must) deliver cars on a shorter time line than GM… But it does sound like GM is right on schedule which is amazing.
In 2009 (Detroit) I’d bet we see as close to the final prototype as we’ll see revealed at the auto show. Then GM focuses on marketing and production.
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:38 am
It Looks like the sleeping giant (GM) has awoken and decided to come out to the EV starting gate at 120MPH.
I visit this GM-VOLT blog each day with my morning cup of coffee becasue each of these positive updates makes me grow more confident that American industry is live and well and that the American people are willing to get behind courageous turn-around efforts such as GM has undertken. I know that I’m not the only guy thirsty for positive news to offset the current onslought of cynical news.
Thank you Lyle & GM for the daily updates.
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:39 am
Mickey Bly and team are off to a good start. Two weeks ago I purchased a Tahoe hybrid. I have driven over Wyoming mountain roads over the high speed interstate and have never experienced such a smooth well integrated vehicle. The integration is far better than my previous 01 Prius, 06 Prius or 07 CR-V. The change between 4 and 8 cylinder mode is undetectable,and best of all, the cruise control is so smooth with all the hills we have. Move over Mercedes S class. The gas mileage is amazing, about the same as my 4 cylinder CR-V. With Mickey and team at work I have no fears with the Volt.
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Today, Opec need our foods and we need their oil. After we don’t need their oil, we should raise the price of food and try to recoup some of the greedy profits they made from us. Payback is a bitch!
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:51 am
Volt fleet sales possible in 2009! I am loving this, I can’t wait for the spy pictures of the first Volt! Photovoltaics on the roof of my home, maybe a wind generator in the backyard, with my commute I will be buying 3 or 4 gallons of gas a month…
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Dave B –
While a startup may be able to do it quicker there are very good reasons while GM/Ford/BMW/M-B/Honda/Toyota take the time they do to create a new vehicle. There are numerous design reviews and tests that must be completed before a new vehicle can go into production.
If you were to see what GM is doing as far as FMEAs, crash tests, and the like and then compare them to what a Fisker or Tesla do I am sure that you would not feel as comfortable driving a Fisker or Tesla. Perhaps not, but I know that I sure feel better knowing what is being done.
If Tesla survives for 10 years you will see that they will take more time doing development – there are no shortcuts when it comes to safety and reliability.
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:14 am
14L Diesel – #15,
Actually, Tesla has done a good job on FMEA and crash testing, but I agree that GM requires more time for development. Tesla plans to build maybe 1000 Roadsters per year, so streamlining production isn’t a major concern. By contrast, GM needs to analyze everything from a mass production point of view. GM also has to take extra steps to make sure things are idiot proof. Making a mass market vehicle takes longer.
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Here are the folks doing the batteries and super caps.
http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/05/20/afs-trinity-xh150/
Take Care
Arch
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:47 am
I you need a good place to test electric cabin-cooling technology (during bumper-to-bumper traffic), Atlanta area is the place
[yes, I live near Atlanta, would love to catch a glimpse]
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Looks like A123 is going to be busy.
http://www.grcblog.com/?p=278
Take Care
Arch
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Diesel @ 15,
I agree safety is very important. But when it comes to oil I tend to think about our troops driving around in the Middle East. Talk to them about safety and I think they would err on the side of expediency. But when it comes to my family, I hear ya.
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Thomb#19 – Maybe they will be unveiling the finished shell in Paris, with an incomplete car underneath?
Lyle: Thanks for the article. Could we put it onto a timeline and post it on the homepage? Maybe circles on a line, with info. coming down from the circles and checks in the circles when the step is complete? We could add more steps to the timeline as we get more detailed information. This would help demonstrate to casual visitors the real progress that GM has made. I still think that most people are so short-term that they think 2010 is forever and away, and that GM might still forget about this project. After watching this blog for almost a year, it is clear to me that GM will see this thing through.
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Volt Revealed? In the photo behind Mickey. (at the top of this page)
Is that the latest Volt (which has been under canvas in previous photos that I had seen), or something else?
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:13 am
#23 MarkinWI
Possibly. Lyle’s post says,
“Next up are the true mule vehicles, or ARM’s…will arrive at the end of 2008…some of these cars will have the approximate final Volt physical design.”
Paris is in October. Rough Volt-appearing vehicles will show up at the end of 2008. Nearly exactly Volt-appearing vehicles will show up in 2009. I still don’t get it. I guess that is part of the fun. We’ll see what we get.
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:41 am
MarkinWI, #21, thats a great idea!
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:01 am
#11 CDAVIS wrote: “I visit this GM-VOLT blog each day with my morning cup of coffee becasue each of these positive updates makes me grow more confident that American industry is live and well and that the American people are willing to get behind courageous turn-around efforts such as GM has undertken. ”
Same here, I come here for the hope. GM, for all its troubles, seems to one of the only corporations really responding to conditions here on the ground. They deserve to do well, despite what have been some serious blunders in the past. As they say, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King!
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Thanks Lyle for this post. This is good news. Just wish, like all others here, that GM could get it done and out to us in early 2010.
As far as the comments from some in this post about our good friends in the Middle Eastern oil fields, when you have friends like these you don’t need any enemies. I know they are looking out after their best interest and I can’t blame them. But, I wish our congress would pass a tariff on food sent to any oil producing country equal to 10 times the value of the food shipment. They can afford to pay top price for our food. That money could be used to feed and house Americans out of work due to high energy cost, jobs lost to overseas, etc.
After we ween ourselves from their oil, we should really show them what we think of them. But, as most of you already understand, that as our use of crude oil declines, others will take up the slack. The oil producing countries are going to be sitting high in the saddle until they run out of oil.
I am a Vietnam era Marine (1962-1966). I say this with all the love for my country that I can muster. I would like to see us pull all troops out of the middle east and tell them to go to h*ll. I don’t dislike the people of the middle east, but I do dislike their politics. If we keep troops there protecting the oil flow to the rest of the world, let the oil producing countries pay us for our effort.
Sorry, if this is taken the wrong way, but I don’t see where we have but one friend in the ;Middle East that we can count on and we all know who that is. They don’t sell us any crude oil.
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Yesterday my wife searched all over town for the cheapest place (Costco) and filled her Impala SS up with premium at $3.99/gallon. I would like to buy a higher mileage car, but Chevrolet is not offering anything which has enough better mileage to justify the cost.
I had some hopes for the 2009 Aveo 5 door, which is supposed to have a bit better engine. Alas, the mileage numbers I have seen for it are still very weak.
Realistically, I do not look to get my hands on a Volt for at least 3 years. Come on GM, offer us something with competitive mileage to drive in the meantime. Where are all these “hybrids” you are supposed to be rolling out?
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:51 am
this is amazing. my mom keeps bugging me to get a new car. i told her 1) my current vehicle (chevy blazer 2-door 2000 yr with 105k+miles) runs fantastic, and i have a great mechanic friend who keeps it running for very little, and 2)i dont wanna get a new vehicle until i see the volts on the road!
im a chevy fan, so im very excited about this car!
currently my blazer is taking a long-needed rest while i bike to work. screw you opec! and when i do fill up, it aint from imported companies
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:51 am
#26 N Riley:
Amen on the troops.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:17 am
pooch #27
That is the attitude we all need. Another Chevrolet lover. Welcome to the club. Good luck with your Blazer. With the help of your mechanic friend, it should do you fine until you can trade it for a Volt.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:22 am
My, my. This talk of exacting revenge on the middle east has the potential to get us off the deep end.
As N Riley said in #27, the middle-easterners are looking out after their best interests. So, are we. They’ve been selling us oil for quite a while. Oil prices have reflected market conditions. I don’t think oil has been overdone as a weapon. I don’t think food should be used as a weapon. Oil and food are commodities.
Our enemies are those that don’t like the relationship between us and the oil producers. They don’t like our tactics or culture. Once we severly reduce or dependence on foreign oil, they will be less important strategically. We will have as much need to interact with them as we currently have with Africa. Our cultures won’t clash as much. When oil is less in demand, they will have less power. We don’t need to hit them while they are down. We’ll be fine.
Let’s not get too nationalistic here, except for cheering for the Volt and its successors. The Volt will make us strong.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I can’t wait to flip the bird to all the gas stations and opec. They are giving it to me good right now with my 1995 8 cylinder Infiniti. I am just being patient and taking the hit now cause I have no car payment but in a couple of years, I am gonna say goodbye to gasoline forever. God bless America!! Go GM Go!!! I can’t wait to cruise silently in my electric car passed all the old gas stations that are now converted into flower shops or burger joints.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:46 am
I hope that’s not the new front end behind him. It looks more like an SUV or pickup front end. I know it’s too late to make pleas to GM about the appearance, but I will anyways. Please, make it look like a car, even better, a sports car! I really don’t want a mini SUV and I believe lots of others don’t either.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:50 am
For over 35 years, the US Congress and each President has failed to address the serious set of problems brought on by dependence on foreign oil.
With Oil now hitting the $130 mark, we’re reaping what we sowed.
It’s high time to vote out every politician that isn’t prepared to take serious steps NOW !
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Well, colleagues? It seems that GM are very much on track to bringing in a new era of fuel economy…or will that be kilowatt economy? Now that GM has heard our collective cries about the Volt (and hopefully the Flextreme as well) we must turn our attentions to other necessary areas that will impact our Volt ownership as a whole.
As we all are aware of, the Volt will come in a few flavors.
For the E85 Volt, we need to persuade companies to start using sugar cane crops to make E85. Brazil has been doing this for more than 40 years and about 65% of their cars run sugar cane ethanol blend. Why? Because sugar cane grows in abundance. Now we need a sub-tropical climate in order for it to grow. There’s plenty of that in the gulf coast states. Now some of you may think that I’m going against the corn growers in the mid-west states. But if you think about it, using corn intended for animal feed raises the price of food so as we are using more of it for fuel, food costs rise. Think I’m wrong? Go to your local grocer and check meat prices…then write me back. If we truly want to be oil-independent we need to put a vested interests in every renewable way to power our future, not just our future car. The same can be said for biodiesel. Same issue, same solution. The U.S. has a lot of land that can be used to grow fuel-stock without a negative effect on our ecology. This may not seem like the largest money maker, but it is assurance while being responsible. I’d like to leave more than a house to my kids after I’m gone.
We must also lobby and assemble to petition for cleaner electrical sources and a better operating electrical grid. Building better grids means that charging our cars won’t have an adverse effect on our neighbors electricity. We need to be more responsible in that area too.
You see, friends, the car is not the be all-end all some of us perceive it to be, but a beginning for a lot more work we have to do. I ask everyone reading this blog to consider this as it will spur others to take action. America has its faults, no doubt about it. But it is still our home and even a dog knows not to s*** in its own house…
(With whatever I say, write or feel-you may THINK good of me, you mak THINK ill of me…but as long as you THINK for yourselves I have done my job…)
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Why not use liquefied natural gas (LNG) in the ICE range-extenders? It’s clean, won’t go stale in the tank and there is more than enough natural gas in America’s shale fields to replace ALL imported oil for transportation uses. Plus carbon-neutral natural gas from renewable sources such as garbage dumps is coming online and it doesn’t have to be reprocessed like H2 from natural gas run through expensive fool cells.
Here is video of outspoken oil billionaire T. Boone Pickens delivering an insightful, humorous keynote speech at the 2008 Alternative Fuel and Vehicles Conference and Expo in Las Vegas on May 13, 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuWYzRzt3iQ&feature=user
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Sorry for going off-topic, but this is the latest thread-
Oil crosses $129 for first time, heads for $130
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080520/oil_prices.html?.v=8
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
MotorWeek – Home “Phill” Up … With [compressed] Natural Gas [at home]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgcNJWaO_Fw
When you get home, simply plug in the electricity and plug in the natural gas. You always have a 400 mile total range and the gas is a fraction of the price of gasoline or diesel and it does not degrade in the tank.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Firefly #34:
I agree with your position, but not necessarily with your solutions.
For me personally, I think the next step after weaning the family off of (or almost off of) petrolium based transportation will be to implement solar panels on my roof for local generation of power for personal use or sellback to the power company of any excess. As soon as Nanosolar or another manufacturer starts selling lower cost panels in small quantities to homeowners, I am ready to implement.
I just think that food and the necessary water to grow that food are going to be more needed for eating/drinking than for transportation fuels….
JMHO
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
As I read through the posts here, I find myself learning a great deal about the process of bringing a car to market. I appreciate the detailed information and look forward to learning more.
Thanks, Lyle.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
HURRICANE WARNING!
Just a warning to everyone out there. Gas is almost $4 a gallon and likely to stay that way through the summer. We have been fortunate the past few years with hurricanes. If one hits the northern gulf of mexico this year it will surely rise gas prices likely over $10 a gallon. There will be no quick fix to it depending on damage etc, especially since we are not filling the reserve now. Certain areas of the country will see it worse than others. So if you see a hurricane coming be sure to gas up before it hits.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Dave G – 16
I don’t want to say anything to bad-mouth Tesla – I am sure that they have been diligent. It is just that for the volumes they are building the corporate risks are at a whole different level than what a volume manufacturer is facing. But there have been a bunch of posts on this site arguing that GM was too slow and how Fisker and Tesla are going to blow them away.
While I’m not arguing that GM has a world class timing for product development, they are definately is the same league as Ford/BMW/M-B/Chrysler/Nissan. There is a reason for the timing and it really bugs me when people outside the industry minimize the effort it takes to pull off one of these projects. But this goes for all kinds of projects (construction of a roadway, developing a new medicine, creating a new battery chemistry) – when you get inside them and really see what goes into it you’ll see that the steps are necessary.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Alternative fuel Magnegas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDpDZWNnRc4&feature=related
Natural gas from sewage and other waste streams
Fox News MagneGas Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYfDZcyBjc&feature=related
Compressed Natural Gas car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAa450Itk3s
$7.00 for a 150 mile range. The same 25-mpg car running on gasoline at $4.00/gal. Would cost $24.00 to go 150 miles.
The US has so much natural gas, we EXPORT it!
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
#35 Firefly
“But if you think about it, using corn intended for animal feed raises the price of food so as we are using more of it for fuel, food costs rise. Think I’m wrong? Go to your local grocer and check meat prices…then write me back.”
Lets check the facts. They make ethanol out of corn starch. They feed cattle corn for the protein not the starch. When ADM started their first alcohol plant it was because the EPA was about to close them down because of the starch piles they had sitting all over the place. Now for a small plant they grind the whole grain and then ferment it. Once they get the ethanol out of it they have left what is called “distillers dried grains.” The interesting thing about it is that there is more protein than just ground corn because of the dried yeast that is present. Since al lot of the starch has been used up it is a better balanced food. Also do a little fact finding. The last time I checked all the countries in the world had plenty of starch. They all need protein not starch.
Take Care
Arch
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Tim I thought we importated natural gas. They were and are building or wanting to build LNG terminals all off the Texas Louisiana coast and have a handful along our east coast.
Not to discredit you… just asking.
What I think anyone taking your post to heart needs to do is get a natural gas car and keep shut about it. If everyone had one I suspect that the supply demand curve would kick in like it has for a barrel of oil. Think about it, the only significant change in what it cost companies to bring a gallon of gas to market hasn’t changed since last fall but the the price has shotup dramatically due to demand out pacing supply. More profit for opec.
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
ThombDbhomb #30
I stand chastised. Rightly so. My bad, as the younger set says. You are right. We have had a “working” relationship with oil producing countries all along and we should not feel that we are getting the short end of the stick.
I am just getting juiced after paying so much at the pump.
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Eric #1:
Death to OPEC indeed! Excellent first post!
Death to oil http://www.oiljihad.org
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
If they need someone to test them in the Great-White-North, I’m their man!!!
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May 20th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Why do oil prices go up so much on rumors of problems?
Why is oil so high- yet no gas stations have run out?
Is china really using so much more oil?
Here’s an interesting theory in BusinessWeek
http://www.businessweek.com/print/lifestyle/content/may2008/bw20080513_720178.htm
By the way- What does ARM stand for? (”true mule vehicles, or ARM’s”)
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May 20th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Omegaman66 (#44)
I’m going by what Mr. Pickens said during this keynote speech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuWYzRzt3iQ&feature=user
And by the facts that we can recover domestic waste streams as natural gas and that it is currently far less expensive than imported oil. Perhaps supply vs demand forces will level this fuel’s playing field in time due to the limited nature of the supply stream.
The ONLY long-term energy technology that I can think of where demand REDUCES costs is in renewable electricity such as solar, wind, tide etc. This is because the “consumable” fuel is free and its supply stream unlimited. The capital equipment costs will continue to decrease due to increased production efficiencies & competition coupled with resulting increase system efficiency due to competitive technological advances. This is similar to what the computer & semiconductor industry has recently experienced.
That’s why I believe that natural gas is good for the range-extender which itself is a short-term technology needed only until rapid charging batteries, ultracapacitors and infrastructure are available.
Still, given that 78% of us drive less than 40 miles each day and 92% of all One-Way trips are less than 40 miles (with a plug at each end of the trip)
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/12/06/how-did-gm-determine-that-78-of-commuters-drive-less-than-40-miles-per-day/
The natural gas from recycled waste may just fill the remaining long-range transportation needs.
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May 20th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
As for the original post on the Volt development schedule. All of us should recommend to GM to provide a Volt Integration Vehicle to Lyle. It would be great to hear direct feedback from Lyle on his experience in driving the Volt Integration Vehicle. GM, hope you are reading this.
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May 20th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
# 44 Arch ;
It always bothers me that the Distillers Grains part of the Ethanol equation / debate gets swept under the rug . My understanding is that cattle feed lots are being built near some Ethanol plants to utilize this material . The millions of acres in the CRP program do not get enough attention either . Land prone to erosion should be protected , but in this area there is land being idled at taxpayer expense because it was profitable , not erodable . I hope we can give the Ethanol industry time to become more efficient before throwing in the towel .
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May 20th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Kind of amusing, I just heard the US House of Representatives have voted to litigate against OPEC for the high price of petroleum. What a crock! Talk about stirring up the hornets nest. If I were OPEC my response would be to cut production immediately. What a waste of oxygen in DC! You think they could do something meaningful. How about tax incentives for companies investing of Thin film solar MFG facilites or significant & meaningful laws on fuel efficiency standards 4 year from now? It is just like those incompetant fools to try to point the finger elsewhere for years of poor planning.(NIMBY’s stopped oil drilling off all coasts years ago, want to stop building of NUCs & transmission lines to get renewable power to market & then complain about high cost of energy- give me a break) Opec does not set the price of crude, it is the speculators (futures market) & many of those lining there pockets at your expense are US Citizens not Arabs. I hate buying their oil as much as the next guy but you can always tell when it is an election year. Congress does nothing but pointing the finger.
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May 20th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
I’m living in Florida and drive about 70 miles round trip per day. What is the deal with air-conditioning?
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Exp_EngTech #34
How do we really tell which congressman or senator is the that should be voted out of office. I say let us just clean house. Everyone of them should go. How many times have you heard someone talk about some congressman or senator, but when his representative is mentioned – Oh, my congressman or senator is a good one. Yeah, sure.
All of them are there for their own self interest and the interest of the “special interest” that put them there and keeps them on the cash line.
I say get rid of everyone. What we vote in couldn’t be any worse.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Danny331911 – #53,
The Volt’s 40 miles per charge (MPC) is with the A/C off. With the A/C on, the Volt’s MPC figure will be around 20-30% less, so 30 MPC would be a rough guess right now. We’ll know more once they start integration testing.
But for you, it seems plugging in at work would be a much more relevant issue. If you can plug in at work, you’ll only use a quart of gasoline a day, and that’s with the A/C on. In the winter, you wouldn’t need gasoline for your daily commute at all.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Exp_EngTech #35
My only concern with using Natural Gas is it reduces the amount available for home cooking and heating. Unless we have very cheap electrical costs, Natural Gas cost so much less to heat water, cook our foods and heat our homes. Plus we do not have the distribution network. The same for hydrogen fuel. No distribution network.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
N Riley – #55,
I agree. I generally tend to vote against incumbants.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Neutron Flux, very well put . Litigating OPEC accomplishes nothing, Investigating speculators might do something, GM producing the Volt and converting the rest of their fleet will make an impact, and wind/solar power used in greater amounts will pick up the strain on the power grid. Energy Diversity is what we need. 20% solar, 20% wind, 20% Natural Gas, 20% Clean Coal, 20% Nuclear for electricity generation should ease the cost fluctuations in any market.
N Riley, look up Tom Colburn Senator Oklahoma. There’s a good one. Fights porkbarreling, has ethics, not a trained politician (used to be an OB/GYN doc), pisses off both sides of the Senate all the time. So, can we keep him?
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Exp_EngTech #35
My apologies. That should have been directed to “Tim #35″. I was being distracted by my work duties in the MIS dept.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
“”"”My apologies. That should have been directed to “Tim #35″. I was being distracted by my work duties in the MIS dept.”"”
Apparently still distracted. Should have been Tim #36..
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Can anyone imagine what our country side and neighborhoods would look like if we could all have access to solar and wind engery. Think about that a moment.
If we could rid our view of ugly electrical lines, bury phone and cable lines, wouldn’t our neighborhoods and city views be much more lovely to look at? Just imagine.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
All this talk about Natural Gas…
The point of the Volt is to use electricity. Electricity can be made from many different fuels, inculding Natural Gas.
In fact, I would be willing to bet that an electric car running on electricity made from Natural Gas would be more efficient than a car that runs on compressed Natural Gas directly. This is because:
a) Electric power lines, batteries, and electric motors are all very efficient.
b) Modern electric power stations that convert Natural Gas to electricity on a massive scale are much more efficient than small mobile Natural Gas engines that will fit in a car.
So, oddly engough, driving the Volt 40 miles on electricity made from Natural Gas would probably use less Natural Gas than driving 40 miles in a compressed Natural Gas engine car.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
C’mon GM show us what the Volt looks like…my next car is electric bumper sticker looks great on my mini cooper.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
So far, so good. My only concern is about the battery pack. Will it still be functional at minus 30 degrees, which I frequently hit where I live up north, Quebec, Canada.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
#49 aruby:
Thanks for the thought provoking link. ARM = Adjustable Rate Mortgage.
#50 Tim:
CNG makes a lot of sense, especially for commuters. If GM offered a viable CNG car, a la the Civic, I would be very tempted to buy one. The problem is, as N Riley correctly points out at #57, the lack of refueling infrastructure.
You can fill up at home with one of the little compressor gizmos, but what do you do out on the road? So the range extender would have the same basic problem as the battery, albeit with a longer range. Unless and until there are a lot more public CNG filling stations, this is not going to be a viable option, IMHO.
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May 20th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
#59 Randy
Sure. For you we’ll keep him. What would be the chance of a sitting congressman or senator being voted out unless he is a Republican and does something wrong or immoral?
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
#57 Dave G
The prevailing indication is that the Volt will get 40 miles per charge after 10 or 15 years. Indications are that inital miles per charge will be higher.
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
As much as we might wish it were not so, I am afraid gasoline and diesel (and bio-diesel) are the only true range extenders for the Volt for the foreseeable future. So, let’s drop LNG, CNG or the other stuff. It just is not going to happen.
Most of the auto companies want to put us into hydrogen fueled because it ties us to a network of service stations and dealer service centers more so than an electrical vehicle would. Just my opinion.
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Sure enough , the House has voted to sue OPEC , so I guess GM can drop the VOLT . We will not need to worry about a nuclear weapon being developed and used on us either , because anyone contemplating such an act now risks being sued !
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Yeah, and we will have some stupid senators supporting that action. I know now that I was right when I said to get rid of all of them. Except for Randy’s senator, of course.
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
N. Riley et al.
If you want to stay abreast of your legislators voting records and what bills are coming up for a vote, sign-up here and you will get weekly emails. It also allows you to quickly contact your federal legislators via email when you need to do so.
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/megavote/
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
On a more positive note, I am hoping GM that you will be able to finish the Volt and get it into production before someone else beats you to it. But, even if you don’t I will stay the course and buy a Volt unless it is a dog or costs just too much. I can not imagine it being a dog. If it is it is going to be pure bred.
GO GM GO VOLT!!!!!
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Kevin R #72
Thanks, I just did that.
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May 20th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
#55 N Riley
I agree ! Toss out everyone now in Congress.
On the Presidential Race, I wish there was a viable candidate / party out there that wanted US Energy Independence as a top priority.
I really want to see Cellulosic Ethanol production take off BIG TIME in the next few years and I don’t care if it’s driven by a Federal Program jump start or the free markets. It’s gotta happen.
Regarding the people supporting LNG / CNG…..I’d rather charge a safe A123 battery overnight than use the same time (8 hours) to pressurize a tank / bomb in my car.
With some engineering I can make electricity. I can’t make oil.
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
aruby
I sent your article about the unregulated commodities markets being the cause of high oil prices to all of my Senators and Congressman asking for regulation in the commodities markets. Nice find, thanks.
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Everyone needs to read this. Please contact your representatives.
http://www.businessweek.com/print/lifestyle/content/may2008/bw20080513_720178.htm
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Noel Park,
BigCityCat
Thanks! it’s nice to know someone read my post.
That congress.org site is really cool.
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
T. Boone Pickens reminds us often that “remember, I’m in this to make money”. He says oil production cannot be increased much. We are already at peak oil. He says this because he is invested in wind energy for power and natural gas as a transportation fuel.
We have plenty of oil in this country that has never been produced because it was too expensive compared to buying foreign oil. Deep water gulf oil may cost $30-$40/barrel. Bakken Oil Formation in North Dakota may cost as much as $60/barrel. Coal can be made into liquid fuels for $40-$50/barrel (equivalent). How much oil do we have off our coast lines? (Why are the Chinese drilling for oil off the coast of Florida and we aren’t?)
I don’t worry about oil going to $200/barrel. I worry that oil will drop to $60/barrel and we will not get our electric cars.
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May 20th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
# 78 d. burgdorff
Excellent point.
I read an article from MIT expressing that idea. Energy technologies are hugely expensive, and take several years to develop. They won’t happen unless Big Business/Oil feels confident it will make them money 5 years down the line. The government needs to assure long-term viability of large, new projects, or change will be too slow. Perhaps the infamous Exxon tax breaks could be conditional on their making the more expensive investments.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/20802/
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Aruby (#80)
“The government needs to assure long-term viability of large, new projects, or change will be too slow.”
This really makes me angry!
The “government” doesn’t have any money. It’s the TAXPAYERS money. Don’t EVER forget that!
These clowns in congress are putting our children’s grand children in debt and collapsing the USA the EXACT same way as the Soviets collapsed THEIR country… deficit spending resulting in insolvency, a collapsed currency and economic ruin.
How DARE you ask congress to take more of MY money that I earned with MY labor only to give it to GIANT corporations so they can GOUGE me MORE for the products that I MUST have for life, liberty and to pursue [and hopefully obtain] happiness!!
Corporate welfare is a vicious cycle of pandering for “support” using stolen taxpayer’s money. Government can however level the playing field by breaking up monopolies, removing preferential tax treatment, and removing unfair regulations so that FAIR competition can take place. This is doubly so with $Trillion dollar no bid contracts to the military industrial complex and preferential treatment of oil companies.
When competition if FAIR in a LEVEL playing field WE ALL WIN!
When government CHOOSES technology, only THEY win while MOST of us LOOSE!
It’s YOUR money, it’s YOUR labor and it’s YOUR lifespan your selling, NOT “the governments”.
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Aruby #80
Thanks for the link. I especially enjoyed one of the comments. He suggests that the government put a $40-$50 import tax on foreign oil to show domestic companies that investing in new production will be profitable. I’ve always believed that we should get rid of the gas tax and have an import tax on oil instead. Of course most of our imported oil comes from Canada and Mexico and this would violate NAFTA.
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May 20th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Neutron #53
“Kind of amusing, I just heard the US House of Representatives have voted to litigate against OPEC for the high price of petroleum. What a crock! Talk about stirring up the hornets nest. If I were OPEC my response would be to cut production immediately.”
**** ***** **** *****
I’ve said it before, we’re being played like a yo-yo by Opec. Congress is always late to the party and not dressed for the occasion. They humiliate themselves, they just don’t know it, the problem isn’t that it reflects on all Americans, but rather that it AFFECTS all Americans.
This is why GM and the Volt are so important. We’re going to benefit from a beleaguered company that for decades has been mismanaged by wall street accountants. With their back to the wall they’ve seen the light and are committed to doing the right thing….no congress needed! The result is that the ball will start rolling and GM will have the lead in a race that cannot be stopped and has no end.
It all starts with the Volt, and we should all be grateful for the courage and competence of what once again will be a mighty company doing the RIGHT thing.
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Tim #81
The tax incentives for oil companies are not “corporate welfare”. We have tax incentives to try to get them to do what we want them to do. Despite this, some of the larger oil companies don’t seem to be doing much to increase production. I guess they like getting $126/barrel! It was a mistake to allow Exxon/Moble, Texico/Chevron, and others to merge.
A more politically acceptable way to create an incentive would be to tax imports as I mentioned above. This might encourage Exxon to actually get back into domestic production.
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May 20th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
I am not going to address this to anyone but it is to all. What is
happening now is what is called a paradigm shift. Oil is no longer
the king. This happened back in the 70s too. We had a study back
then that said $40 a barrel oil would make EVERY alternative energy
project work. Well it got to $42 and production increased and we lost.
I do not know what the price today would be today with inflation.
The whole alcohol fuel game is being played again. I can tell you
that alcohol does NOT take one bit of protein out of corn. It adds
to it.
There is a major shift this time. The car companies seem to be on
our side this time. Last time around several car companies would
void your warrantee if you put that stuff in your car. Now GM is helping
to produce it. That tells me that GM knows oil is dead.
Just hang on folks. You will hear so many well stated lies that you
will not know what to believe. Pick your position and stick to it.That
is the only way we can get through this. Good luck
Take Care
Arch
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Like pooch (#28), I’m hoping my car (last model-year Saturn SL; excellent car) can hold out until the Volt is on the road. It could still be too pricey for me, but I might stretch it for such a ground-breaking vehicle.
In a comment to another post, I tried (and failed, I think), to express an opinion about the plug-in vehicle’s effect on photovoltaic (solar) cell research.
I see a lot of comments about people putting solar cells on their home roofs to charge the Volt, a worthy proposition, provided it becomes a paying proposition. Most current research is pointing in that direction; thin films and new materials aimed at the lowest dollar-per-watt regardless of conversion efficiency. Obviously, if it costs twice as much for twice the efficiency, there won’t be many people putting these on top of their houses.
On the other hand, there is the thought of putting solar cells on top of the Volt itself, where available ‘real estate’ is, to say the least, limited. Some research is proceeding apace on maximum efficiency for solar cells, regardless of cost. The Mars Exploration rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, are powered by multijunction solar cells over twice the distance from the sun (and at tremendous expense). This would not be possible with the 8 – 9% efficient thin-film cells being developed for low-cost application.
My point is, a fleet of plug-ins offers a powerful incentive for industry to work on making these multi-junction, high-performance solar cells inexpensive enough to be considered for on-board battery-chargers. I expect the tipping point might come when all the accessories can be powered by the on-board array with at least some juice left to charge the battery — at about a quarter the cost of the vehicle. Not too many people would line up for this — at first. As costs come down, it would quickly become at least a preferred feature.
There is more to consider than just the solar cells. They’ll likely be rigid, for one thing. I foresee an integrated system which would replace the roof (and perhaps the hood) with a multi-layer construction, consisting of an outer plastic layer which can resist a pretty good hail storm, an intermediate layer shaped to support the individual cells along the curve of the roof, an conductive layer underneath (for lightning protection), and an inner liner.
One of the most exciting things to contemplate in an electric-drive car of even modest range is the potential for future options.
Even if high-performance solar cells for plug-ins and electrics are two decades away, the Volt (and inevitable imitators) will be a boon to the folks who put inexpensive, thin-film solar cells on their homes: they’ll be ready-made battery storage for at home use when parked in the garage.
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Just a few more months I guess … til we can SEE what the production Volt is probably going to look like. Maaan, I hope GM does a great job with the exterior and interior. I want GM to have a smash hit …. a grand slam home run. A flagship car that GM’s engineers and production line guys can be proud of for a long time. GM is due for a big comeback in the auto industry.
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Exxon only looks out for Exxon, and Saudi Arabia only looks out for Saudi Arabia.
Only our government will look out for us- the people who fund it.
The situation we are in is somewhat like a Mexican standoff. In the private sector oil business (which BTW is only about 6% of total oil production) there are huge companies who deal with multibillion dollar projects and sometimes make billions on a very thin margin. No one wants to make the first move on anything very radical, such as expensive extraction projects. They worry that if, 4 years from now when they’re just starting to pump oil, the prices have gone down- all that oil can no longer be profitably extracted, and their investment is wasted.
The only way I can see to break this impasse is for the government to do what is has been doing for decades. From bank FDIC insurance to helping out big lenders, to aiding disaster victims, the government acts as a big “insurance” against big, bad things.
Market instability causing oil company write-offs is a bad thing, which is why oil companies are conservative on new technology. But inaction, and current gas prices is a very bad thing.
I’d love to hear a better idea, but my suggestion was to CONDITION what are CURRENT tax breaks to big oil on them taking risks, and moving the energy industry forward. The point is to make investment in new infrastructure a sound financial decision- for Exxon.
I think that GM (particularly Bob Lutz) has broken a very similar impasse in the automobile industry. There were no serious (mass-produced and funded) electric vehicles planned, as that is a risky bet. He pushed forward an electric vehicle program/platform, which is costing billions, and is downsizing other cars, despite his Marketing Department’s studies, Wall Street prognostications, and the allure of 100 years of proven technology- the internal combustion engine. Only after Bob pulled the trigger, and we saw him to be serious (not a niche iCar) did many other automakers announce competing vehicles. After all, once one company will take the risk with a new idea, it becomes even more risky to stay where you are.
And that’s the way the world appears in the light of the glowing monitor.
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
#81 Tim,
I understand your philosophy on free markets and not supporting certain technology or corporations, however, we are now in a global environment.
Japan invests millions of dollars into new technologies (including batteries) so that Japanese companies can be ahead of the rest of their global competition. Unfortunately, this makes for an unfair playing field, and to ensure that US corporations don’t lose out, it might be necessary for us to help support some developing technologies as well.
I’m not saying I’m in favor of these tactics, just that its not quite as straight forward today, since we can’t regulate what happens outside the US (can’t easily level the playing field). Now that competition comes from other countries that may be subsidized by their governments, we have to make an appropriate response.
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
#28
Hmmm…I lke Chevy’s too (owned 3). I hope the Volt is even better than your Blazer. however I’m not loyal fan of GM…it is hard to be.
I’ve had a Toyota for 13+ years and 200,000 miles +…and never needed a mechanic friend to keep it running.
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
in response to Danny331911 (#54), air conditioning can be a life-saving accessory in bad weather, as shown below.
————————————————————————————-
It’s a hot summer night. You are driving into what appears to be a bad thunderstorm. You have no AC. The first drops begin to hit your windshield, and you turn on your wipers.
You don’t know it, but you now have 90 seconds left to live.
The rain becomes heavy. Your wipers can barely keep up at their highest speed. Your windshield fogs, so you turn on you heater, set to defrost. It clears the windshield a little, but now you are getting hot. You have 75 seconds left to live.
Now you are much too hot, and have to shut off the heat. Cracking the window a little cools you slightly, but rain is pouring on your left arm through the window, and soaking the interior of your car. You roll up the window, but now the windshield is fogging again. You have 45 seconds left to live.
Turning the high beams on helps cut through the pouring rain a little. Your windshield has almost completely refogged. You can still see out a small area in the center. You have 30 seconds left to live.
Your windshield has now completely fogged again. Still too hot, you wipe a small area clear with your hand. You have 15 seconds left to live.
The clear area quickly refogs. You look to your heater control, wishing you could use it again to clear the fog. It’s still too hot in the car. You look back to find the windshield is completely fogged again. You reach forward to clear the fog your your hand again, and see red lights – and a vehicle tag at your head’s level. As your car begins to go under the stopped tractor-trailer directly ahead, you open your mouth to scream, but…
You just ran out of seconds to live.
————————————————————————————
By the way, I do go to Florida – a lot. They seem to have a lot of big thunderstorms down there. Food for thought?
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Well the U.S is spending big money on the development of new technology. A123 received over 6 million in U.S funds to help with development.
I really believe in free markets as well. I believe in less regulation over all. Markets that are dictated by people and supply and demand.
The article that Aruby pointed out. Shows how an unregulated market can be used by investors to dictate price with out regards to supply and demand. Currently in the United states according to that article, demand has dropped by 6% while stockpiles have increased by billions of barrels. Yet prices keep going up. It’s because lobbyist succeeded in un regulating the trading of oil and gas. Now investors are trying to make a bundle on oil prices. I can’t help but wonder if they can continue to do that while demand continues to drop and supply continues to increase. If congress in an election year looks to drop the hammer. Then it seems there will be a sell off to protect investor profits. That scares me because this move toward new technology depends on high oil prices. I’m ok with it. I say make prices higher, but they could pull the rug out from under these prices at anytime, because oil is being traded higher than true market cost. If there is a sell off, investors will run to sell there stock before it hits bottom. You could see $80 a barrel oil, or you could see $200.
I don’t want to pretend to have complete understanding. So if anyone understand this process I am all ears. I would really love to get a better grasp of whats going on. If someone would like to start a thread in the forum.
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
To # 39 Jim I
I agree with you. I’ve said in previous posts that I feel that the benefit of incorporating solar panels is perhaps the best way of responsibly generating the electricity from the home. I was only referring to the ICE when I was speaking about the E85. Perhaps I had my thoughts jumbled a bit before I posted.
To # 44 Arch
You are correct. I was in error about that and I appreciate that you corrected me. I hadn’t thought of that. I apologize.
While I strive to get my point out there, occasionally, I may be in error. If I am, please bear with me. Any corrections are welcome, as it is something a wise man heeds. Thanks guys. I need to do some more research.
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
You just ran out of seconds to live.
Terry
LOL
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
aruby
It isn’t a question of risk it is a question of access. The oil companies are largely be kept away from oil buy government, not because of risk of lower oil cost.
Tim
It is the USA that has led the way in research. The Japaneses have historically taken research developed in the USA and then implemented it instead of US companies doing so.
Terry K
Running the Airconditioners compressor defogs winds at normal temps without having to crank the heat up (although that helps too). The AC knocks water out of the air and it is therefore lower in humidity and defogs the cars windows fast.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
#90 BigCityCat
I dont claim to understand but India and China are estimated to be growing their oil demand at about 5% per annum, but combined they are currently a little more than half the US demand.
So, on cigarette packet maths, as the three of you pretty much dominate the world demand, the US will need to reduce its demand at 2.5% percent per annum in order to maintain the staus quo, or develop reserves to make up the difference.
That is assuming the people at “The Oil Drum” are correct and they believe oil production has peaked, or at least plateaued globally.
So it is all up to you, you can have a buoyant economy and cheap Asian goods or cheap gas, but you cant have both, without reducing oil demand at 2.5% per annum.
The global economy is not looking as much fun as it used to. My Econ 101 lecturer said it would be perfect!
imho
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
aruby
It isn’t a question of risk it is a question of access. The oil companies are largely be kept away from oil buy government, not because of risk of lower oil cost.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
#81 Tim
I think you bring up some important points about the role of government, but I think in this situation it get to be a bit more complicated.
I think that relying on the free market to solve this for us is risky. The free market can very often perform more efficiently than government at a given task, but in my view I don’t believe the market can respond quickly enough to solve our energy problems.
The reason I think this comes down to the fact that free markets perform so efficiently because business always makes decisions on a profit basis. They don’t invest in technologies unless there is a high probability of short term returns. I think the magnitude of our energy problems will prevent the free market from developing solutions quickly enough. If we had no time constraints I fully believe the free market would evolve the most efficient solutions.
The problem we face is we need very large investments to be made quickly and many of the technologies would not be profitable in the short term. If there is no profit motive what is going to compel the market to develop the technologies we need.
Let me also point out that I strongly agree with you that government should not pick the winners. But I think it may be necessary for the government to provide the funding. I fully understand that government funding means that we the tax payers are really funding it. But the technologies that would be develop would benefit us all so I don’t think it’s entirely inappropriate. I believe if we allow business to compete for the government funding we may be able to get the best of both worlds.
Perhaps a system that only sets the requirements for a given technology, that way the solutions would be chosen by merit rather than mandate.
I think we should minimize government involvement as much as possible, but I just don’t see how we can solve our problems on an adequate timescale without it in this case. I am perfectly willing to be convinced otherwise.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Tim
It is the USA that has led the way in research. The Japaneses have historically taken research developed in the USA and then implemented it instead of USA companies doing so.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Terry K
Running the Air conditioners compressor defogs winds at normal temps without having to crank the heat up (although that helps too). The airconditioner knocks water out of the air and it is therefore lower in humidity and defogs the cars windows fast.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Volt mule schedule
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May 21st, 2008 at 6:43 am
Terry K #91:
Nice story, but if my windshield fogged up and I could not see, I think I would just pull off the road until it cleared up………..
Sometimes the simplest solution works!
1,105,574,400 seconds to live, if I make it to be 90!!!!! (You do the math to see how old I am now….)
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May 21st, 2008 at 7:37 am
It sure looks like Congress needs to take a dead serious look at this “SWAPS LOOPHOLE”.
Business Week has a story about it right now. I can’t put in the link on this blog for some reason. The title of the story is “Are Pension Funds Fueling High Oil?” Here’s an exerpt:
“Commodities exchanges limit the number of positions an investor can take in the market, but Masters says the Commodity Futures Trading Commission has allowed unlimited speculation in these markets through a loophole. This so-called swaps loophole exempts investment banks like Goldman Sachs (GS) and Merrill Lynch (MER) from reporting requirements and limits on trading positions that are required of other investors. The loophole allows pension funds to enter into a swap agreement with an investment bank, which can then trade unlimited numbers of the contracts in futures markets.”
Leave it to Congress to allow a big loophole in securities regulation that will permit bigtime problems like we have now with gas prices. They did the same thing by UNDER-regulating Wall Street with their securitized mortgages that have caused the turmoil with the credit and housing markets.
The people that believe in “laissez faire” are fools. The government DOES have a role in regulating business. Without it, we would have chaos … kind of like we have right NOW to a certain degree. It sure seems like Wall Street’s LACK of regulation has caused way too much economic turmoil in the past 20-30 years … hell since the Great Depression of 1929 actually. One bubble after another. One scandal after another.
It is time for the government to REGULATE these people! Wall Street has had tendencies to cause global economic problems for EVERYONE … not just the people making the investments. Jeez, when is everyone going to wake up and realize that a LOT of the “bad guys” are on Wall Street … and on K Street with their damn lobbyists that open up the markets to these problems with these darn loopholes in the law. They’re no better than OPEC and the Big Oil good ole boy racket.
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May 21st, 2008 at 7:59 am
#53 John
“It always bothers me that the Distillers Grains part of the Ethanol equation / debate gets swept under the rug” .
You and me both. The reason we grow corn is for the protein.
We can make alcohol with the corn and end up with more protein that we started with. There is a lot of misinformation out there.
Take Care
Arch
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May 21st, 2008 at 8:33 am
Arby (#88)
“Exxon only looks out for Exxon, and Saudi Arabia only looks out for Saudi Arabia.
Only our government will look out for us- the people who fund it.”
That is one of the most naive things I’ve heard in quite some time.
Bill R (#89)
“Now that competition comes from other countries that may be subsidized by their governments, we have to make an appropriate response.”
Correct! Don’t follow their socialist stupidity and let the free markets choose the BEST technologies for the consumer, instead of politicians the BEST technology for the lobbyists. Things would be different if we still had statesmen, but [with very few exceptions] we’re stuck with self-serving political panderers.
BigCityCat (#92)
I don’t have a problem with “regulation” to keep the market free and the playing field level, but I strongly oppose ANY redistribution because it is simply THEFT. When our children see this they believe that if they can do it, so can I.
Redistribution is a MORAL HAZZARD to our nation and it’s what’s killing the American spirit of independence and self-sufficiency that once make our country the world’s shining light of freedom.
Omegaman66 (#95)
“It is the USA that has led the way in research.”
Correct, it is FREE COMPETITION that creates innovation, NOT political pandering and government bureaucracy
Pstoller78 (#98)
“But I think it may be necessary for the government to provide the funding.”
NO! The strongest technology has ALWAYS been provided by Natural Competitive Selection in a LEVEL playing field. When government redistributes OUR tax dollars, they tip the balance by choose the technology winner. They serve us much better by letting US choose the winner by OUR buying the BEST technology.
It’s REAL democracy when you vote with your pocket book because that money represents the labor, education and finite lifespan you spent while earning it.
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May 21st, 2008 at 8:36 am
Josh #22, DaV8or #33,
The picture behind Mickey Bly is an SUV, specifically a Chevy Equinox. It might be one of the Equinox SUV’s that GM is using to test fuel cells.
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May 21st, 2008 at 8:47 am
Tim (#103)
“It’s REAL democracy when you vote with your pocket book because that money represents the labor, education and finite lifespan you spent while earning it.”
This is the way it SHOULD work, but the US is currently using FIAT currency with value based on “faith and credit” supplied by a private bank [which is no more federal than Federal Express] which has NEVER been publicly audited which can increase or decrease the supply and value [inflation/deflation] at will. The more they print, the less our labors are worth because there is no INTRINSIC value such as gold or silver which [unlike paper] is relatively rare and requires much risk and labor to produce.
Fiat currency created by PRIVATE “central” bank and a graduated income tax which disincentives excellence are the most devastating of evils. NO government or people have long survived the debt and despair this wealth distribution they creates.
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May 21st, 2008 at 11:05 am
Tim #81
Your right on, man. I totally agree with everything you say on this subject. I don’t like congress giving corporate welfare payments whether it is oil companies or farmers. I do think they can invest in new technology development, but should limit it to that.
Instead of giving the corporations all this money and putting our children into debt, it would be better to keep our national budget balanced. Any excess money should be refunded to the taxpayers. The taxpayers could decide how best to spend the money to benefit themselves.
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May 21st, 2008 at 11:15 am
Arch #85
You are correct. We should stay the course to electric cars and trucks. We should keep our eye on the ball and not let OPEC, the oil companies or our government make us lose sight of our goal. We need to keep the American auto companies informed of our desire to shift away from oil.
I am not sure I expect to see OPEC and the oil brokers come up with more production and lower prices to spur us to purchase petroleum fueled vehicles in the future. With China, India, Asia and Africa coming on-line with their demand for more oil, the price of oil will remain high and will continue to escalate. The future is not bright for anyone wanting to drive petroleum fueled vehicles except in those with an ICE for seldom used longer range trips.
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May 21st, 2008 at 11:31 am
When we advocate government funding industrial development we have to remember two things when comparing what happens in Japan and the Untied States.
1) In Japan government works with business to develop new technologies and position their industries to be first in the world.
2) In the United States government is an antagonist of busness.
And that works against our best interest.
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May 21st, 2008 at 12:47 pm
# 110
So why not try to emulate the Japanese model?
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May 21st, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Interesting to see how we have evolved from the Volt mule schedule to international finance and public policy. Actually it makes sense, as the success of the former will clearly impact the latter.
Once again I am reminded of Kevin Phillips. Bloggers above have raised the issue of government debt. Mr. Phillips has made extremely thought provoking comments on this issue, as well as on the oil issues raised here, both in his earlier book “American Theocracy”, and his most recent book, “Bad Money”.
He also comments extensively on the issue of government intervention in markets and industries, also discussed here. One phenomenon he warns of, not yet mentioned here, is the rise of “sovereign wealth funds”. These are government sponsored investment pools formed by nations holding large reserves of foreign currencies, notably dollars, generated by our disastrous balance of payments defecits.
China, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Dubahi are but a few examples.
He says the they have grown tired of holding hundreds of billions of dollars of US Treasury bonds and bills, denominated in dollars which are constantly declining in value. They are looking for opportunities to make better returns, and to use their powerful currency holdings to further their political ends.
They will be in a very powerful position to pick winners and losers, often in the form of which international corporations they support and which they do not. This can be another very strong version of the Japanese government’s famous support of its corporations cited above.
These are giant new players in the great game. They will make Cerebrus’ acquisition of Chrysler look penny-ante in the fullness of time.
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:08 pm
noel park
The reason we stray onto other items of interest is because they are all inter-related with the Volt. One subject affects the root cause of another. It is very hard to not stray when the topic turns a little towards your feelings or beliefs on the related subject.
It would be nice if we could stay on subject. I am guilty as charged.
GO VOLT GO GM…..
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Pstoller78 111
We have so many special interest groups that work against each other that it is impossible for a congressman or senator, much less a President, to go against the very groups that elect him and others like him. (I use him without any though as to sex of the him.)
Once government says that it is in the national interest to do something, it might get done. Now government says it is in their interest to do things the way they have been done for very many years. Government should only be obligated to the individual citizens, not to “groups” or companies. But we live in the real world, don’t we?
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:15 pm
without any thought…..
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pm
noel park 112
Our world continues to become more complex each year. It used to be that a country had to worry about other governments or states. Now with the world economy evolving the way you explain (and I agree with you), we have to be worried not only about counties like North Korea, Syria or Iran, but may should be more concerned about the potential trouble to our economy a p*ssed-off investor could accomplish. They could flood our economy with a lot of the cash they are holding, sell it off cheaply or just refuse to accept dollars as payment.
It is a complex world.
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:24 pm
#113 N Riley
I agree our current system being dominated by special interests makes our government very inefficient, but I don’t know how we can compete in the global economy when other governments are giving their industries advantages that ours don’t have.
If there are better options for us I’m willing to try them.
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Pstoller78 #117
Until we rid ourselves of special interest groups, I see no real hope. We should be one for all and all for one. But, the special interest puts their interest above the interest of America as a whole. We should just be Americans. Not this or that group. The political parties, the news media and the interest groups do not want us to one. There are politicians to be elected, news stories to be written and money to be made by keeping us separated and fighting with each other. We can’t be ONE until we drop all the “:labels”. How many of these groups do you think would be willing to stop what they are doing to the fabric of our society? Not many, if any.
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May 21st, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I am just ready for the Volt to be shown. I am really interested in what the interior looks like close up. I want this car to be a stunner.
I was riding with a friend at lunch and a Ford Thunderbird came by. He said, “You know, I don’t understand why we don’t see more T-Birds.” I looked at him and said that the primary reason is that as much as I had hoped the new T-Birds would sell good, they were just plain ugly.
I don’t want the Volt to follow tat path. Ford needs to spend some design time on the T-Bird and the Mustang. Both are plain ugly.
IMHO
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May 21st, 2008 at 3:07 pm
#116 N Riley:
Yeah, the refusal to accept dollars is a very real possibility. Already Iran and Venezuela are threaening to accept payment for oil only in Euros.
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May 21st, 2008 at 3:19 pm
#116 N Riley:
Coincidentally, right after I sent this comment, I opened the 5/19/08 LA Business Journal to be greeted by:
“Indeed, when the sovereign fund of the Dubai royal family decided earlier this year to invest $100 million in the stalled Grand Avenue project, the family declared L.A. one of the world’s “gateway cities” where they plan to invest some of their oil money.”
The tip of the iceberg.
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May 21st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
For Jon #8 and people who think that OPEC will be dead when we switch to commuting eletric cars, the OPEC will never die unless there is more oil to produce at. This is because I don’t think the airline industry and the military will be switching to electric or renewable energy anytime soon. Let me put it this way, do you think the Boeing 474 or the US 2000 hp war tanks/fighter will be using electric or renewable energy soon? I don’t think so. And don’t forget that almost all your daily products are made from oil.
So think a little deeper when you post a statement like that.
My 2 cents
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May 21st, 2008 at 3:53 pm
…I foget to mention that all trucking comanies need oil too unless you find a good way to grow your food in you backyard or you teleport goods around the worlds.
My 2 cents
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May 21st, 2008 at 5:43 pm
What was the topic….? Oh ya the schedule for the mule… OK GM where is my mule? 239 410-8826 TED
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May 21st, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Don’t expect Exxon/Texaco to do the right thing.. They are still sitting on large format NiMH batteries patent which is why the Toyota RAV-4 EV is no longer made.
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May 21st, 2008 at 7:50 pm
#104 Arch said: “You and me both. The reason we grow corn is for the protein. We can make alcohol with the corn and end up with more protein that we started with. There is a lot of misinformation out there.
We grow corn for calories. Ethanol takes 2/3rds of corn’s calories. It’s true all the protein is left, but neither cows nor any other mammal can live on protein alone. In fact, grazing animals such as cows need to have protein intake strictly limited. Distiller’s grain is not in any way a premium feed — it sells at the same price (or lower) than other feeds including whole corn.
There is indeed a lot of misinformation out there. Please stop adding to it.
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May 24th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
What does GM have to lose? They can’t sell us SUVs any more.
I’m not buying a new car until it’s a plug-in electric.
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May 24th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I enjoy reading all the different thoughts, ideas, etc., but I do have to say that when I don’t have to be spending 100.00 a week filling my tank to drive back and forth to work, which is only a 25 minute drive each way, I will have much more money for other things. I now drive a 2000 Saturn that gets pretty good gas mileage, but that is getting old (133000 miles) and will be needing to buy within the next few years. I have seen such an increase on what I have had to put on credit cards and a huge decrease in what I buy and what I do. I welcome a vehicle that I do not have to spend my hard earned money keeping fueled up. This needed change is inevitable and I do think the time has certainly arrived.
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