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GM’s Next Generation Chevy Volts May Use Supercapacitors

May 16th, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, Competitors, Research

The first generation Chevy Volt, known as an E-REV (extended range electric vehicle), is still two and a half year away, but GM continues very active R&D looking into the next generation.

We have at times discussed the ideas of supercapitors. These are like batteries in that they store energy, only they are generally less expensive, pack very high power densities, and are extremely good at rapidly discharging large bursts of power.

GMs Mark Verbrugge, Director of Material and Process Labs at GM’s Tech Center gave a presentation about GMs lab work on combining these with lithium ion batteries in the next generation of E-REVs.

He noted the value of the combination in producing a system capable of high power and energy output, stressing that this would not appear in the first Volts but that GM is already “thinking beyond”. He also noted supercaps outperform li-ion at low temperatures.

He presented data on a supercap/li-ion combo power supply and how it compared to lithium-iron phosphate (shown in graphic) running on their current Volt battery testing protocol (shown in the graphic above).

Source (Greencarcongress)

Posted by: Lyle

74 Responses to “GM’s Next Generation Chevy Volts May Use Supercapacitors”

omegaman66 Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Nice to hear they are looking at this sort of stuff. I am sure many reading the headline are think about ultra caps replacing batteries entirely. Not the case and GM isn’t alluding to that here but who knows. Awaiting to see what happens with the Zenn!
omegaman66 Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

1st and 2nd! Is that a first? hehe
Jim F. Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

Very interesting!

Although I’m not an engineer, it seems that a combination of supercapicitors and batteries would be complementary in an electric vehicle with regenerative braking. This report clearly indicates that GM is in the electrification of automobiles for the long haul. The efficiency of the E-REV will continue to increase in subsequent generation of these vehicles.
Eric Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

A supercapacitor combination with Li-Ion would likely provide for increased efficiency overall. A capacitor can absorb and discharge power very fast, and they can utilize this to help handle high instantaneous power demands (fast acceleration). They can also use this technology to recapture additional energy during braking.

It’s refreshing to hear that the R&D continues for future models even as the Volt continues to be developed. Stay on the forefront GM!
Arch Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

Now this is what I have been waiting for. One of the problems with hybrids and regen braking is that that the battery can not accept a big charge that fast. The friction brakes still do most of the work. Now if you put a super cap in there it can absorb ALL of the charge. Next you are going to have to start up again—-that is a BIG drain on the battery system. The amount of energy to go from 40 MPH to 0 MPH is about the same to go from 0 MPH to 40 MPH. Save ALL of the energy from the stop and use it for the start and the battery pack will last for a much greater distance. Now for a final touch add a circuit that would bleed any residual charge left in the super cap
to charge the battery. Now you have a winner.

Take Care
Arch
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

This makes me very happy. Innovate or die. I like the way GM is thinking. Go guys! Push that envelope. Good luck.
Vincent Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 8:43 pm

Here come the 0 to 60 performance times
demetrius Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

Can any of you battery guys understand this chart?

It looks like an official GM chart about the exact performance of their battery packs…

But is has several scales going on.
Vinayababu Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

Good news, it is a logical conclusion in the development of any hybrid drive system. Some may confuse UC (Ultra Capacitors) with storage battery, but in reality they will complement each other . There is even some attempt to use only UC and eliminate Battery in a hybrid.
.
Like what #4Eric noted, UC come into play during regenerative braking and accilaration when Car deal with short burst of high power. I feel UC is most useful to recover energy during regenerative braking.The draw back is it cannot sustain the power supply for a long time like battery.

For those who wish to have a good reading on this see the link

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0416/p13s01-sten.html?page=1
Vinayababu Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

One more link
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/news-events/release.asp?PRID=266
mmcc Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Hmmm, I wonder if GM will offer some sort of upgrade program for Volt 1.0 purchasers?
Computer-codger Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

Arch #5

” The friction brakes still do most of the work.”

I was under the impression that regenerative braking can be programmed to most of the deceleration. Am I wrong about this understanding?
Computer-codger Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

Sorry I left out a word “do.”
Arch #5

” The friction brakes still do most of the work.”

I was under the impression that regenerative braking can be programmed to do most of the deceleration. Am I wrong about this understanding?
bruce g Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

Im not a battery expert but notice the battery considered with a Supercap is a Kokam battery which is a Lithium Polymer battery, not Lithium Ion,
Hope I got this right.
Mark Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

Are they looking to ZENN’s futur supplier, EEstor?
Arch Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

Computer-codger #13

“I was under the impression that regenerative braking can be programmed to do most of the deceleration. Am I wrong about this understanding?”

Thirty years ago when I built my last hybrid we could not make it work. This was of course with lead acid batteries. I see NO way the small batteries of todays hybrids could handle that big of a charge. I will admit I do not know if the new batteries can handle a 50 amp to 200 amp charge for a short period of time. My thoughts are that a super cap would have no problem with a charge that big. Then it could give it right back to you for start up. We shall see what happens. SOON I hope.

Take Care
Arch
bruce g Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

Hmmm,
May need the help of experts to discuss what Kokam are really doing,to hard for me.
Dave G Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

This was a question on the fourm around 6 months ago. Seems like GM had the same idea.

On that old forum thread, one question was: How big of a capacitor do you need to make a difference? This test used 600 farads, but what kind of results do you get with 100 farads? or 10 farads?
NorthernPiker Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

Computer-codger

Regenerative braking (and acceleration) is limited by the power rating of the battery pack. The addition of a supercapacitor to the battery pack will certainly improve this power rating. However, the electic motors will need to be large enough to capture the energy available from hard regenerative braking; otherwise, the friction brakes will kick in.
Grizzly Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

I had always thought a couple of caps would accompany the batt in the 1st gen. Volt, but we found out some time ago this was not the case. With their ability to buffer the battery from high instantaneous draw and efficiently absorb regen. braking, super caps will really prove their worth.

In a way, I’m almost glad I won’t be getting one of the first Volts. While the Volt can’t come out too soon, I think it goes w/o saying that 2nd and third gens will really be improvements.
Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

I stated this months ago, but future vehicles will have a combination of supercaps, batteries and fuel cells. Step-by-step, GM is proving this true.
Jeff J Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

Grizzly , Totally with you on that post , The war is on , nissan , benz , VW , I would bet Ford , Dodge will be the next to come out with there e-flex system. I am betting that GM is going to beat them out off the gate , but the other horse will not be to far behind . Yes THE GENE IS OUT OF THE BOTTLE!!
Anonymous Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

GM is hardly innovating with this tech. AFSTrinity and the Extreme Hybrid are already using this tech. ZENN also has plans to unveil a vehicle called CityZENN based on ultracapacitors from EESTOR in the Fall of 2009. If GM waits until the 2nd generation Volt to do this, they will lose consumer confidence as a leader and major market share. Wake up folks. The future is already here, but today’s auto makers are delaying efforts to make as much money on existing solutions as long as possible.
Arch Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

NorthernPiker #19

You have no idea how close you are on your thoughts. You need a larger motor for fast braking than you do for a fast start. I do not know how many car companies understand that. Now if you want to squeal the tires starting and stopping you will need the same motor.
LOL

Take Care
Arch
Arch Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

Anonymous #23

Well lets just say there are a lot of people talking. Lets see who breaks first from the gate and then who is in the lead at the end.
My money will be on GM.

Take Care
Arch
Grizzly Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

Anon #23

The difference is that Zenn’s car is supposed to be powered solely by an Unltra Cap to the tune of (what was it ?) 200 miles? The technology they’re boasting has never been demonstrated. Not even in a prototype. As far as I’m concerned, until it has, it’s just vaporware. I doubt you’ll see that car in 2009.

GM plans to use existing cap technology to complement their Li-ion battery. Big difference here. I suppose with the right battery technology/design you could make the argument for doing w/o caps, but at this stage of the game it makes a lot of sense to me.
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 12:57 am

Anonymous #23

Did you say that, by the time Volt 2.0 comes out, GM will lose major market share to AFSTrinity and ZENN? That doesn’t sound likely. Can you support that with facts? What are their production capabilities and plans? Can they market, sell, and distribute that many cars?

Also, it doesn’t seem accurate to say, “…today’s auto makers are delaying efforts to make as much money on existing solutions as long as possible.” The Volt program doesn’t seem like a delay. GM is talking ultra caps for Volt 2.0. Toyota is going plug-in. Nissan made their recent announcement. Mitsubishi…I see a race to produce green cars. Again, what facts can you present to support your contention? Do you have evidence that the major auto makers are delaying? They may not be as far out with technology as smaller automakers. But, far out technology can be risky. The majors need to produce advanced and reliable cars.
Firefly Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 1:13 am

Gentlemen (and ladies if there are any present),

Zenn makes claims yet there needs to be hard evidence before anyone can go around quoting non-existent specifications.

And yes, many others have tried new and novel approaches. For this you demean GM? Need I remind you that there is a distinct difference between producing 1,000 EV’s for a niche market and producing 10,000 to 100,000 cars PER YEAR, while adhering to government regulations. This is no different than you making a few copies of a CD to give to friends versus mass producing 2 million of that same cd and distributing it worldwide.

The day Zenn or anyone else can do that with NHTSA breathing down their backs and an anxious public, I’ll give Zenn their accolades. I just find it interesting that people damn GM for hard documentation, yet praise a car that there is not even proof of its existence…
omegaman66 Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 1:37 am

The only reason I have hope that the Zenn car isn’t another Zap type scam is because they are also dealing with lockheed martin… the biggest defense contractor in world.

It this uc from eestore or even the one that MIT is working on turns out to be the real deal then WOW even before the volt comes out its battery technology is obsolete.

I hope this Zenn thing pans out. From GM’s perspective it wouldn’t be good for it to come out just yet though… I don’t think and here is why. As GM perfects it drive train of the future they advance further and further from all the other manufactures that are trying to keep up with the volt via recapturing wasted energy from their IC engines. Once a cheap light fast recharging battery or uc comes out then that can be directly applied to the Volts drive system. Toyota etc will all be struggling to produce a car that totally bypasses the ICE when GM would already have a few years head start.
DocM Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 2:42 am

Let’s not forget that EEstor has a partner: Lockheed Martin. They signed a cooperative development agreement last January.
DocM Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 2:55 am

PS: EEstor is the company making the barium titanate ultracapacitor “battery” that is to be used in the Zenn. Lockheed Martin’s interest is an exclusive international right for their use in aerospace and “homeland security”.
Joe Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 5:56 am

The combination of battery and ultra caps makes sense to me. Both could do the job working together best. Just using the ultra cap does not make sense to me because for one thing, capacitors don’t hold their full charge for a long time. They do charge and discharge very quickly and would would work well to recapture braking energy. As for using ultra caps for quick charging from house current, that’s another problem by itself. The current would be so large that the electrical home service would not be able to handle it. Also, to handle all that current, the electrical cord would be too big. If voltage is raise to lower the current, it would then become an electrical safety hazard. So I can only see using ultra caps to complement the battery. These analogies are justl my opinions.
akojim Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 8:04 am

well… i copied the chart and enlarged it and studied it very carefully and i can say with a high degree of certainty that it is constructed mostly of small rectangles overlaid with several colored lines. lorem ipsum. if there are any navajo chart talkers on this forum, i’d be very appreciative of some sort of a brief interpretation for the graphically challenged.
Tim Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 8:39 am

Here is a 3-D animiation of how the system works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk7xbcnzxks
charley497 Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 9:34 am

This is a very exciting time for the auto industry. But I have this fear that the oil companies will figure some way to sabotage everything before it can become a reality. I sure hope I’m wrong.
NorthernPiker Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 9:51 am

Arch #24

You do need a larger motor for capturing all the energy from fast braking. For example, to brake to a full stop from 60 mph takes approximately 180 ft. The distance required to accelerate from 0 to 60 mph is function of the power of the motor which directly determines the time for 0 to 60 acceleration. Here are the distances required for various acceleration times.

0 to 60 mph in 10 seconds, 586 feet
0 to 60 mph in 6 seconds, 350 feet,
0 to 60 mph in 4 seconds, 235 feet (Tesla type acceleration), and
0 to 60 mph in 3 seconds, 175 feet (Warp 1.3)

So, as a simplistic guideline, when you need to decelerate faster than your EV can accelerate, your friction brakes will engage and you will waste energy.

http://www.hintsandthings.co.uk/garage/stopmph.htm
Arch Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 9:58 am

#33 Tim

Here is another good clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzAdTMrq-I&feature=related

Take Care
Arch
Arch Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 10:10 am

#35 NorthernPiker

THANKS! I think that should help people to understand the problem a little better. While the hybrids of today say they are using regen braking they are not using much of it. Most of the braking energy is still being lost as heat off of the brakes. I still think the ultracaps are the way to go if you are going to try to capture most of the energy while braking. JMHO

Take Care
Arch
John Jones Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 10:17 am

Watching the Youtube video Tim submitted (33.) a few things are immediately apparent, most importantly the target charge for the supercapacitors should be set by speed. A stopped vehicle should charge the supercaps from the battery until they are full. As the vehicle accelerates the caps are depleted but once it is cruising the supercaps should slowly recharge the battery so that they are depleted, ready to accept a charge when the vehicle begins to decelerate. In the video the target CAPacity appears to remain full.

Second, placing the charge port at the rear of the vehicle is not the best option for most garage setups, unless you enter / leave the garage from the same direction as the car this will be tiresome, most garages have the house entrance opposite the garage door.

Thirdly, these type of hybrid designs seem much more suited for ‘mid-engine’ layouts to improve performance, the flexible shape of battery and capacitor design, should better be able to migrate weight towards the center of gravity than an ICE, which is required to be a roughly cubical block of dense metal. The video shows the heavy energy storage and use components opposed on opposite ends, resulting in a high moment of inertia.

Lastly, if we can decouple the electric motor from the generator (there is probably a great benefit to a merged design) we could more easily move to a design with four smaller motors placed at the wheels with a larger generator only attached to the ICE, of course then we could better merge the regenerative braking with the drive motors and perhaps recoup most of the loss of having a separate generator at the ICE.
Jason D Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 10:44 am

Sounds good that they are looking ahead..I hope they still focus on what’s ahead the first generation volt..But with better power and charging and the capablity of longer ranges sounds good..but read between lines GM is figuring out how to put the volt concept into a silverado or tahoe..a truck or suv that would get 50 to 60 miles on a charge with the capabilties of still towing that would be great..run the boat to the lake and not use any gas..now if gm could put the volt engine and battery in a boat..a day at the lake without using a drop of gas…what a dream..it would be great…
d burgdorff Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 10:48 am

Its been awhile since we heard anything about the Australian ultrabattery. Supposedly it was being tested in both Japan and England. You may remember that the battery combined ultracapacitors with a lead acid battery to make a cheaper alternative to lithium ion. The claim was that all the logic concerning transfer of energy from battery to capacitor was internal to the unit. The capacitor charge was probably maintained above a minimum for performance. I wonder if this battery could give us an acceptable alternative if lithium ion costs remain high.
Matthijs Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 11:33 am

Following the Aptera project it seems they are already using a 10kWh pack in combination with (Maxwell) ultracaps.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/aptera-3-battery-test.jpg

Why is it still in R&D?
NorthernPiker Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 11:44 am

Arch #37

Ultracaps will certainly help in HEV case but they become less important when the battery packs are bigger and support a substantial all electric range. For example, A123 claims, at least for its batteries used in power tools, to support a 10 C charge rate. A 10C charge rate would mean that a 16kWh Volt battery pack could support a charge rate of up to 160 kW. Such charge capability would obviate the need for a ulotracap except for extremely hard braking. I do not know the charge capabilities the LG battery pack nor the battery pack that A123 is proposing for the Volt but increased AER is always implies greater charge capability by virtue of the increased battery pack size.
Dr. Science Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 11:53 am

Ultra capacitors & batteries are compenents that store energy. Variable fequency inverters, are components that release the energy. The motor converts the energy to rotary motion.
These are the easy parts, as mentioned in a previous article, the tall pole supporting the tent is the software to control these components.This is the greatest challenge of telling each component when, where, what, how much from each input to each output.
Acceleration and decceleration rates, regenerative rates, heating, cooling, current draw and more.
I predict this as the project gore point and the formula is thus:
The number of changes and upgrades squared = the number of days in process.
noel park Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

I just heard on the radio that President Bush, having failed to get Saudi Arabia to increase oil production enough to lower US fuel prices, gave a speech in Egypt saying that we need to find solutions here at home.

I can decode this, but one obvious approach would be for the US government to HEAVILY incentivize initiatives such as the Volt.

At this point in history, lowering demand is a whole lot cheaper than increasing supply, IMHO.
noel park Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

BTW, note the headline on this morning’s Yahoo news page:

“Oil sets record near $128 despite Saudi output boost.”
omegaman66 Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

I would bet that he was most likely implying that we need to do more domestic drilling. Bad news is even if Congress opens up the gulf of mexico, alaska and california to drilling, it will be a few years before that oil hits the market.

I made a comment that is stuck in moderation at #29 Here is part of it hope this isn’t the part that got it sidelined.

The only reason I have hope that the zen car isn’t another s c a m is because they are also dealing with lockheed martin… the biggest defense contractor in world.

If this ultracap from eestore or even the one that MIT is working on turns out to be the real deal then man, even before the volt comes out its battery technology is almost obsolete.

I hope this zen thing pans out. From GM’s perspective it wouldn’t be good for it to come out just yet though… I don’t think! Here is why.

As GM perfects it drive train of the future they advance further and further from all the other manufactures that are trying to keep up with the volt via recapturing wasted energy from their gas engines. Once a cheap light fast rechargable battery or ultracap comes out then that can be directly applied to the Volts drive system.

Toyota etc will all be struggling to produce a car that totally bypasses the ICE when GM would already have a few years head start and many e-flex makes and models on the assembly line ready for the new energy storage of the future.
noel park Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

#46 omegaman66:

You got it. The story is up on the Yahoo site now. More domestic drilling, nuclear power, “alternative fuels” and conservation, essentially in that order.

I believe that the American people would go along with any or all of the above, if it could be convincingly shown that it would be done in a way that did not degrade the environment.

Even so, as you so correctly point out, it will be a few years before these things can hit the market. Even then, I seriously doubt that we can ever get back to where we were 10 years ago. Conservation, a la the Volt, would appear to be the quickest thing to roll out.

If we make our world unfit to live in in our quest for cheap energy, we will have shot ourselves in the foot (head?).
TED in Fort Myers Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

My Honda Insight uses most and occassionally all of the energy of braking for regeneration. When I let off the accellerator it goes to one level of regen. When I touch the brake pedal but not enough to apply friction to the pad another level of regen comes online. Only when I press harder do the friction brakes contribute. TED
Storm Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

In looking at the video, the supercaps will absorb the regeneration energy. Unfortunately, if the caps are charged they can’t do that. Sounds like a difficult balancing act to have capacity available for acceleration and extra ’space’ for regen.
George B. Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

Not sure how close you all are following the EESTOR deal, but from what I read in their patent, they are developing an improved ceramic-based dielectric out of Barium Titanate as an enhancement to what others (MIT,etc.) have already developed. The stuff I see on the MIT site seems to indicate that the technology for a 20-30 W/Kg unit is already there and the improved dielectric can only improve the unit.

I’m guessing that EESTOR will deliver exactly what they are saying, and it will arive in the ZENN car next year. GM looked at the EESTOR product but decided against using it for the initial Volt. I’m guessing that is because it will not even be available for testing till next year and GM has to get things moving RIGHT NOW. I live in New Hampshire and am a little leery about the Lithium battery in extremely cold weather. From what I’ve read, the ultracaps are much more temperature tolerant. Regardless, I’m getting a Volt as soon as I can. Someone has to buy the first generation to get things going….
drivin98 Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Best way to get cheap oil? Lots of not driving. Doesn’t pollute, Immediately effective.
noel park Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

#51 drivin98:

Absolutely right, but not too good for car companies, LOL.

We moved closer to my wife’s work. She will drive about 6K miles this year, as opposed to almost 10K before. It does make a difference.
noel park Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

#50 George B.

As to your last two sentences, I could not agree more. I only hope that our next President and Congress have enough sense to give us some substantial help.

My late father in law was named George B. Doubleday. One hell of a guy! To this day we refer to him fondly as George B. Small world. Brings back a lot of fond memories. Every good wish.
Grizzly Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

WRT Eestor, I sure hope they can come through. It’s one thing to deal with a theory (even a viable one) and another to produce a working product.

I just wonder why their competitors like Maxwell and others who’ve been making super caps a lot longer haven’t announced anything similar. After all if this concept has been around and protos developed by MIT etc why wouldn’t they jump at the opportunity?

The other thing that bothers me is that they haven’t demonstrated the product, not even in private to the likes of Lockheed Martin? Seems to me this would have been done and then, L-M would be able to say they’ve seen the product demonstrated and they’d have credibility. I just don’t get it.
FolsomEV Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

EREV doesn’t resonate. I still like EVER — Electric Vehicle, Extended Range. The somebody can come up with the “best EVER.”
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

#55 Grizzly
Maybe if Eestor told us something, Lockheed Martin would have to kill them.
omegaman66 Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

I have been following the eestore story since they first made their announcement of an awesome ultracap in (I think) 2006.
The only thing I have ever seen writen negatively about eestores idea was just a comment on a message board long ago that said something to the effect that the stats were right but that the voltage or something was way to high to be used in cars and that the lowering of the voltage would not allow the ultracap to have nearly enough energy density to be viable.

Don’t know if that is true or if they over came that. Keep in mind this was a couple of years ago so I don’t hold my failing memory to the fire on EXACTLY what this guy thought the problem was going to be.

With the advent of awesome electric cars surfacing in 2010 it will still be a number of years before poor people can will be able to buy one second hand and have them really saturate the roads with electric vehicles.

The introduction of a cheap ultracap coupled with some cheap poulsen wheel motors (currently at ~$3500 with 6 lead acid batteries) could bring high fuel efficiency to anyone with enough money to afford a car.
Grizzly Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

Thomb #56

Well, if that’s the case then all of Zenn’s employees (who are Canadian I believe) better have DOD clearances .

All L-M would have to say is that they HAVE tested their devices and they meet specs, or are “promising”. They haven’t even seen them.

If it pans out it would definitely be huge for the industry to say the least. But, I’ll believe Zenn/Eestor when I see the vehicle on the road and tested.
Vincent Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

Sorry if this is a Dupe but it has the basics for those wondering of what a super capacitor does and how it helps. How it’s the next generation of “super batteries”.
http://www.supercapacitors.org/
nasaman Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

59 Vincent

The link you provide is an excellent brief description of ultra/super capacitors. However, much more use & test experience is needed for automotive applications before they are used as critical storage devices —whose failure could cause outright drive train failures or serious performance impacts. For example, since many sections of an ultracapacitor must be connected in series (as with battery cells), one section’s failure as an OPEN circuit could cause the entire capacitor to fail. (This failure mode is easily avoided with properly-designed Li-Ion batteries.)

GM is certainly approaching this in the correct way by specifying the Volt’s 16kWh battery to handle the surge currents of acceleration & braking without battery degradation and with only negligible effects on the Volt’s performance ….and by waiting until ultracaps are fully qualified for automotive use.
koz Says:
May 18th, 2008 at 12:33 am

Maxwell’s caps have been in heavy duty vehicle testing for some time. They have an agreement with Johnson-Saft and they are supplying capacitors for the upcoming Mercedes Hybrid with Continental packs, I believe. They also have a commercially available capacitor pack with 300V output specifically designed for the automotive industry. I believe price is more of issue than performance, testing, or reliability. Not that this won’t be needed for specific automotive applications, rather current prices are limiting practical applications. Like battery prices, automotive sized ultra-capacitor modules will come significantly in price with volume production.
McFly Says:
May 18th, 2008 at 12:40 am

A flux capacitor? Awesome!
Tagamet Says:
May 18th, 2008 at 3:23 am

Simple question: Has anyone, anywhere, ever seen somethihng even purported to be an Eestor product. Even a black box that they claim might do SOMETHING. Pardon my cynicism, but if it can’t walk like a duck, and doesn’t sound like a duck, and HECK they can’t even FIND the duck….. it’s kinda tough to (literally) bank on that duck…..
omegaman66 Says:
May 18th, 2008 at 4:02 am

Word on the street is that nobody… not even the inventor has ever seen it!

Shouldn’t someone be hitting up the employees at EEStore for some info? Ve have Vays too make you talk!
Len Says:
May 18th, 2008 at 4:17 am

Lest anyone believe this stuff is rocket science, here is a link to a construction article for an electric car using li-ion batteries, an ac motor with drive electronics and super capacitors for the regen braking and acceleration. It was constructed back in 2001 and was the fellows second electric conversion, the first being done six years earlier. His solution to the drive electronics and software was to buy the motor controller from the motor manufacturer, Seimens. It is not like any of this is new. What is new is that we finally have a motivation.

http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm
nasaman Says:
May 18th, 2008 at 11:37 am

BMW just announced that they are developing an “efficient dynamics” power system using ultracapacitors to absorb/furnish the heavy surges of regenerative braking, electric power steering, etc as a means of protecting a car’s 12V battery. The system is scheduled for use on their 3 series & new 1 series first. For more details go to……

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/bmw-developing.html#more
Darius Says:
May 19th, 2008 at 2:30 am

Somebody think that Ultracapacitor is something futuristic. It already works and tested. Please find CSIRO – Australian venture which tested Ultracapacitors with led-acid batteries http://www.det.csiro.au/science/de_s/de_s_topics.htm
N Riley Says:
May 19th, 2008 at 10:56 am

#48 noel park

The American people would go along with those methods you listed. The problem is that the environmentalist extremest would fight drilling and nuclear until doomsday. Many of us would classify ourselves these days as somewhat of an environmentalist. But we are not in the same league as the people who would oppose any and everything except alternative (and some would oppose some types of that) methods and conservation. Our best bet is to conserve. The only problem is that most of us don’t waste a lot of energy beyond getting to and from work. As conservation methods expand and improve, we will see more of us doing it.
noel park Says:
May 19th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

#69 N Riley:

I consider myself to be a pretty strong environmentalist. All of these energy sources have traditionally produced huge negative environmental impacts and/or risks. This is because the industries involved have, as is only human nature, tried to minimize the costs of “mitigating” these impacts and risks. People are sick and tired of same.

If they try to expand with their traditional making of messes, I will be in the front rank to fight them. I am just saying that, at some point, whether it’s $100, $200, or $500/barrel, there is enough money available to change the paradigm and do whatever it takes to not make the messes. And/or clean them up when the process is complete.

A good example is here in California at the Tejon Ranch. This huge remaining area of open space has been the scene of a brewing showdown battle between the developers and the environmental community for years. Recently, the developers have begun working cooperatively with the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), the Sierra Club, and many others.

They have recently announced a historic agreement on how much of the land is to be developed, and how much is to be preserved and enhanced as habitat. This avoids PR wars and litigation, potentially costing millions of dollars and years of delay. The developers clearly made a business decision that this was the most profitable course for them. The environmental community made a similar decision that it was most effective for them to give up a little in order to get a lot.

If and when oil, coal, nuclear, tar sand, oil shale, et al, corporations are able to find ways to spend some of their billions of dollars in profits to make the natural world a better place, rather than worse, as a result of their projects, they will be amazed at how much cooperation they will find.

I am a committed member of the NRDC, the toughest and most effective environmental advocacy group on the planet, IMHO. I think that you would be amazed at how willing and effective they are at sitting down and trying to hammer out mutually beneficial solutions to environmental challenges with developers, industry and governmental organizations at all levels. It ain’t cheap, but at $128/barrel it is quite likely very cost effective.

Having said all that, I agree with you wholeheartedly that conservation is far and away the most environmentally friendly and cost effective solution.
GM innovating??? - Tesla Motors Club Forum Says:
May 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

[...] with li-ion batteries for next-gen E-Flex – AutoblogGreen and a bit more on the Volt site. GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Concept Site
Dan Beach Says:
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 pm

…so when will we be making electricity-generation more green (needed to charge these vehicles)??? Our already over-loaded grids struggle with peak periods during each day, what will happen when everybody starts plugging in their vehicles once they’ve gotten home from work?

Surely SOMEBODY has a plan for how we are going to handle the added electrical demand…if not this will be messy!
Tagamet Says:
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:42 pm

Dan @72
There’ve already been studies that suggest that OFF PEAK charging will actually be a boon by using up electricity that’s going unused running the power plants (as they have to be) 24/7. Only after the first 250,000 plugins are ON the road will this be an issue. By then greener technologies (andaffordable personal generation of electricity) should be on line.
stas peterson Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

RE: #46 etc.

You would think that Mr. Bush never thought of this?

You can criticize him of rmany things but Eenrgy policy si not one of them. He has had a comprehensive Energy Plan since the beginning. He has been worjking to bring Nuclear back for one LAST generation, and to eventually transition to Fusion when it’s ready.

That’s why  the Energy acts of 20001 and 2005 he sponsored, and even 2007, all helped lay the foundation for long term energy independence.

Do You want renewables ? He said build as many boondoggles as you wish. When it isn’t anywhere near enough, build clean Nuclear and eventually really clean Fusion, too.

Nuclear would not come back until the NRDC fanatics can be neutralized in their “delay and bankrupt them with nonsense lawsuits strategies”.

Mr. Bush wanted the nuclear plants themselves to be standardized and abe improved to be more passive and safer. Mr. Bush has cajoled the industry to designing GEN III+ plants with their own Billions, that are 3 orders of magnitude provably safer, than what is running well today.

They are much more passive and no longer require operators to do something even if its wrong when beset by alarms going off everwhere.   All can run unattended for 72 hours as the NRC wanted, while safely shutting themselves down without requiring the need for powered pumps, valves, or human operator interaction.

Mr. Bush has recreated an international consortia to pay for and build the last experimental Fusion reactor, that the Democrats killed, before building the first elctricity generating demonstration Fusion Plant. Recall that the first Nuclear fission demonstration plant was built in 1957, and a scant dozen years later, 50-100 nuclear plants were being built.

The Laws have been reformed to make the capital expenditures for Plants predictable. Nuclear electricity is cheaper, and has been since before the first energy crsisis going back to the 1960s. It only got expensive when the legal stalling went on, and on, and on, for no other purpose but to run up the costs and exaust the Utility managements.

The proof is that the plant builders are now offering to the Utilities, Fixed Price contracts on their NRC pre-certified “Standard Design” plants. They would never consent to do that in the old days.

And that is even when the watchdogs, the NRC has gotten really tough as a junkyard dog. No more one off custom plants unless you want to really pay for it.

Nuclear is in renaisance with 34 plants in the pipeline to join the US grid in 2015-2020. Those 34, equal the output almost 70 of the 100 odd plants running today. When they come online they will increase nuclear electric generation share by almost two thirds. In turn that will allow us to close down the oldest and dirtiest coal plants running today, making our air much cleaner.

That schedule is just in time to power the floods of electric autos that Mr. Bush’s US Advanced Battery Consortium have pushed to theh edge of development reality, starting back in 2000. Li-Ion went from Lab curisosity to power for autos thanks to the USABC push.

Only in short term drilling poilicy did Mr. Bush fail to get+ the obstructionanists in Congress to go along.   He said we need oil supplies until the 2020s, to keep demand and supply in balance.

They said Conserve!   Now YOU are conserving at $4.00+ a gallon. Aren’t you happy the NRDC asses won, the short term political battle?

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