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Micky Bly, GM Director of Hybrid Integration on the Running Chevy Volt Prototype

May 15th, 2008 | Posted in: Prototypes, Test drive

After Bob Lutz’ big announcement yesterday about the Chevy Volt prototype running on the track, I had the chance to talk to GMs director of hybrid vehicle integration, Mickey Bly, a little more about it. We covered a range of topics and I will have much more of our conversation soon. Micky oversees the integration of all systems into final vehicles including hybrids and E-Flex’s.

So the first lithium-ion pack car is on the track?
We carried through on what we discussed and committed to. The burgundy vehicle we showed in the lab (on Chevy Volt media day) had been running for the past several months was being converted over from a NiMh to a li-ion pack. That took place on schedule to the day and we received that back out at Milford a couple of weeks ago. We did a lot of start-up safety checks which we do for any kind of vehicle to make sure that it was put back together OK. And as Bob indicated we have been running that car as well in a dynamometer environment. Basically we start the vehicle down on these big electric rolls that lets the vehicle roll without driving. We can simulate going uphill or downhill by either resistance or assistance forces going into it. So we did that for a good week and a half as we went though all of our normal startup drive profiles, charge sustaining, charge depleting, and things were looking very good. In fact, no major surprises at all . We took it off the rolls and have started driving it on our Milford proving ground facility now, in a limited fashion.

Have you driven it yourself?
I have been in the vehicle, yes I have. I wouldn’t call it driving because it was shuttling between buildings when I was at the wheel. The real driving was a large more extensive driving event with some of my engineers on Tuesday.

Could it cover the 40 miles on 50% of the stored energy?
Obviously clearly 40 miles is are target. I wont add anything to what Bob already said. We have spent a lot of time developing the battery in the lab, and I don’t want to comment on exactly how far it went at this time.

Can you say which suppliers pack is on that particular vehicle?
No, I know if course, but we are not going to comment on that. We’ll be switching battery packs out through the year between the two suppliers. We’re doing competitive testing.

Posted by: Lyle

93 Responses to “Micky Bly, GM Director of Hybrid Integration on the Running Chevy Volt Prototype”

Spin Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

Great news!!!!1

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Paul B. Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 8:25 pm

Cool!

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MetrologyFirst Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

I bet it ran 60+ miles. You can almost feel them bursting to tell us.

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Glen Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

Can’t they build another mule and test both head to head with the different packs?

Come on now, Malibu’s aren’t that expensive.

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koz Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 9:02 pm

They certainly sound coy, in a good way

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bruce g Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

They must have cleaned up before they took that photo, no champagne bottle, balloons…nothing..

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Statik Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

Was the Mission Impossible theme music playing as you interviewed him?

Did your electronic devices self destruct after 5 secs of completion of talking to him?

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Talks Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

I think they have definitely used A123 batteries for testing.
Remember, few days back we saw a picture of continental pack being fitted into the Mule.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/14/will-the-volt-be-too-powerful/

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ThombDbhomb Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

Can’t we get nasaman to use his spy satellite connections?

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Firefly Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 9:58 pm

Like I said before, they only promised a 40 mile range. It can more than likely do about 60 (roughed in). The extra energy could act as a buffer (limp-home mode) in a worst case scenario measure. I’m excited that they’ve gotten as far as they have. I’m looking forward to the actual prototype with body. I know that it will have a low cd. I hope they make it a bit sportier than a Prius, maybe like a little Mazda RX8-ish. Wouldn’t hurt since the Pruis is kinda dull looking to me. But I applaud GM for getting this far. Looking forward to eventual ownership.

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j greg Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

Congratulations on getting your test prototype out! That’s a big milestone. Any accelerated life test results on the battery packs?

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demetrius Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

In the picture above – was the photographer taking a picture of the volt but he was too slow and the Volt launched itself out of the garage?

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Dave Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

I believe the Volt will be just the tip of the IceBerg. I can invision GM puting the technology in to many of their Vehicles between 2010 and 2020.

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bruce g Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

Firefly,
There was a lot of discussion on May 7 on this subject.
Best guesses are it has some resemblence to the 2010 Cobalt or Astra.
But we will all be pleasantly suprised.

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charley497 Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

I’m like the little kid in the commercial. I’m to excited to sleep.. I bought a 2004 S-10 Blazer new. I’m really ready for a new car but, it has to be electric. Come on Volt I need you.

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Jimmy Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

This is a huge milestone. In my estimation it will only be surpassed by the:

1) unveiling of a working prototype,
2) start of production of the Volt,
3) announcement regarding pricing of the Volt,
4) Volt’s availability on dealer lots.

It would also be a huge event if GM allowed people on the waiting list to preorder a Volt.

Keep up the good work GM & Lyle!!!

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JonP Says:
May 15th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

That’s awesome!

My bet says 50 easy, with no accessories……..

Drive a 100 miles round trip without a drop of gas if you charge while at work…..

Imagine that.

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:29 am

Bravo Lyle,

This is a genuine confirmation that we may hope the nexte big event very soon. See Jimmy #15. Take care

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Grizzly Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:38 am

We’re just going to keep on guessing . They won’t comment on the 40, or the batt SOC to deliver it. Sources on this blog have hinted that it may actually have a 65mi AER and the batt may only weight 300 as opposed to 400lbs, and only cost about $3500. Pure speculation of coure, but who knows? Maybe they’ve learned quite a bit.

If any of this is true, it makes me wonder if 16kwh is actually needed? Maybe they’ve decided on one batt and are confident it can be discharged lower than 50% consistently and still last 10+ years and deliver more than 50 AER. If the pack sheds 1/4 of it’s cells or more the price will definitely drop.

If any of this is true, it’s good news.

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Tom Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 4:00 am

My dynamic analysis, based on a best guess for all Volt parmeters, estimates that the Single Charge Range (SOC=50% of a 16 kW hour battery), with one 180 lb. passenger, a stop, fast start every 15 minutes, 70% regen efficiency, 7 mph headwind, 50W accessory power, and @55 mph cruise, is 38 miles. Plug in 500W for A/C and it drops to 36.5 miles. Physics 101. Prove me wrong.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 5:19 am

It must be a very exciting time for these GM engineers.
Nice interview with good information Lyle, as usual. Thank you for doing a great job keeping us informed.

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Estero Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 5:54 am

#12 Dave

Seems like I ready somewhere, maybe elsewhere on this forum, that GM has plans to incorporate some form of hybrid into 20 models over the next few years. I can’t say if it is true or not, only what I have read.

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Estero Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 5:55 am

Sorry about the typo! I meant to say in #21 — Sems like I read somewhere…

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Jim I Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 6:50 am

demetreius #11:

I hope the Toyota spies did not come in during the night and steal it!!!

Jimmy #15:

Your list is great, but I think you need to add one more item:

1.5 Begin the conversion of an assemble plant to produce he Volt.

Lyle:

Great work, as usual!!!

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Dave B Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 7:48 am

In discussing the two different packs, nobody has really indicated that if the two packs meet the specs, then why not choose the pack which can be produced cheapest so that the cost savings can be passed to the consumer?

I assume these packs do not cost the same. Why not let cost alone then decide, since that seems to be everyone’s primary concern, including GM’s?

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greg woulf Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 8:21 am

Cost, performance and life have to be balanced for the battery.

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Van Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 8:25 am

As has been published here before, most everybody will get better than 24 miles of AER, and if you use the US06 driving cycle the AER is about 32. Only 3% of drivers will be able to achieve 40 miles of AER.

This article did not confirm the implication that “hitting the 40 miles on electric power” means the mule achieved a 40 mile all electric range using 8 KWH.

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Tim Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:08 am

Wall Street Journal:
Ghosn Hedges Bets on Emissions
Nissan to Push
For Zero Emissions,
But Plans Fallback
By JOHN MURPHY
May 15, 2008; Page B2

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121074186054991351.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

TOKYO — Nissan Motor Co. Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn this week declared that he wants the company to lead the world in producing all-electric, zero-emission cars. But he is hedging his bets.

Nissan says its electric car will have a range of 100 miles on a single charge. The range extender would allow the car to travel an additional 300 miles before refueling or recharging.

Such a device would let Nissan’s electric car, to be introduced in limited numbers in the U.S. and Japan by 2010 and marketed globally in 2012, compete with similar vehicles planned by rivals General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. Nissan is Japan’s No. 3 auto maker by sales volume, behind Toyota and Honda Motor Co.

It’s a race!

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N Riley Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:10 am

Lyle, good news. Thanks for your information. It will help feed our frenzy about all things Volt.

Go GM, Go.

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N Riley Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:23 am

#27 Tim

It is certainly turning into a race. Several of us have been trying to tell GM that by 2010 they will not be the only manufacturer to offer a Volt-like vehicle. We have been hoping GM could get the Volt out onto the market by early to mid-year 2010. That might allow them to come out before some of the competition. I am not sure if GM considers itself in a race. If they do, they sure do not show it.

But, I truly wish GM God’s speed and all the luck in the world. I want GM and the Volt to be an outstanding success. I have $10,000 saved thus far for a down payment or deposit. I am ready to buy ASAP.

GO, GO, GO GM!!!!!!!!

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Tim Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:32 am

AESC: Lithium-ion Batteries for Nissan-Renault’s Hybrids, PHEVs and EVs
16 May 2008

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html#more

The cells offer a high power density of more than 2,000 W/kg.

“We have developed cells for HEV so far, but we are now developing a new concept for electric vehicles. EVs are a source of uncertainty [for drivers] for fear of running out of electricity and not being able to refill the tank. We will present that our EVs with the charging function of just a few minutes will provide the driver with an extremely efficient means of resolving the uncertainty.” —Nobuaki Yoshioka

AESC has its EV batteries under test in the Subaru R1e vehicles being tested in Japan by TEPCO; a quick charge (80% capacity of the 9.2 kWh pack in 15 minutes) is part of the vehicle specification.

Run, GM Runnnnnn…

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Tim Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:42 am

Related:
Nanostructures Will Raise Thin-Film Solar Cell Efficiency
http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/540827/?sc=dwhp

“The most recent estimate of the maximum power conversion efficiency – under normal illumination conditions – that one can expect with our new thin-film solar cell approach is approximately 45 percent. This is a very large improvement over the 31 percent maximum theoretical efficiency for today’s solar cells with classic p-n junctions,” said Edward Yu, the Principal Investigator on the three-year DOE grant.

“Our devices have a much thinner stack of quantum wells, which means the extra photons that are absorbed are much more likely to make it out of the quantum wells and generate current,” explained Edward Yu. “This enables high photon absorption efficiency, high electron and whole collection efficiency – and therefore also high voltage – to be achieved simultaneously.”

We are witnessing a 21 Century energy resonance!

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Raymond Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:47 am

Tom, I’m no expert but in your estimate, what is the energy required by the electric motor to cruise @ 55 MPH? Surely not the maximum rated power? Or else it could’nt climb a hill no?

Please explain.

I’m hoping the 40 mile range is a “normal use” range including moderate heating or air-conditioning, headlights “on” and the radio playing…

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Darius Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 9:47 am

Tim,

This is not practical yet. 9.2 kWh within 15 min. it means you have to have outlet 9,2×4=36 kW. At home normally it is available 6 kW. You have to build new infrastructure for electro-filling stations with special terminals. This would take time and will be quite a burden. An once again, if your battery capacity is limited to 9,2 kWh you have to fill your car with electricity every 40 miles. What will be annoying business to go 400 miles with such “creation” and have stoppages every 45 min for 20 min electricity filling procedure.

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melee Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:09 am

“I am not sure if GM considers itself in a race. If they do, they sure do not show it.”

Er, from all indications the Volt is a crash program. Developing and productizing large-production, complex machine like this is pretty darn hard, you know. Frankly, the existing target date is very aggressive; I think it should be considered a miracle if they make it.

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noel park Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:40 am

#13 Tim:

Man I hope so.

All:

Can you imagine the fun we are going to have trying to coax the maximum number of miles out of the Volt before the engine kicks on?
Coast, “P&G”, big sweaters in the winter, “4/70 air conditioning” (roll down 4 windows and drive 70 mph – well maybe 55!) in the summer? Who knows what you guys can think up?

At the local car shows, some of the coolest low riders have restored the old evaporative cooler gizmos that you used to hang in the window of you car in the days before hardly anybody even had AC. I can sense a big comeback for those things.

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BigD Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:48 am

Tim

6kw “normal” for a household? What do you have, a pebble-bed nuke in your basement? 6kw is 60 amps @110, assuming 10% AC-DC conversion loss. I don’t know any one with a 60 amp circuit. I thought my 20 amp 220v central air wiring was pretty far off the hook. But 60amps? Try 15 amps for a typical garage outlet.

Not to mention that you could probably fry an egg on the that 6kw rectifier of yours…

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ksuhwail Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:01 am

I thought it was 40miles minimum at End of Life. So we should expect a number much higher than that if the life is expected to be 10 years. Look how much your laptop battery degrades over just a few years. I wouldn’t be expected if it was over 60+ miles new.

Who knows….as GM perfects the control software it might be possible to download new software and increase range even when the car is aging.

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RB Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:29 am

Lyle — Fascinating comments, and great job. Mickey said “no major surprises at all”. That is excellent news. Still, I wonder, did he give away an “minor surprises”?

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RB Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:35 am

#19 Tom. Very interesting. How are you finding the losses due to rolling resistance, e.g. tire slips, flexing, etc?

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Kevin R Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:37 am

Fantastic!

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TOM M Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:46 am

Noel # 35

You are sure bringing back some old memories because I had one of those evaporating coolers on my 1958 Chevy coupe. They worked so so at high speeds, however we have already had some 100 + days and setting in traffic in that kind of heat is not fun. At seventy plus years old I would like some comforts in life. That being said, I am looking forward to seeing a VOLT that is a full fledged auto with all the bells and whistles.

Tom

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noel park Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 11:56 am

#41 TOM M:

Well I just remember how green with envy we were when we would see one of those things while we were driving through Needles or Barstow in our 1951 Plymouth. AC? What’s that? Although I guess you are right that they didn’t do much while you were stopped in traffic, LOL.

Still, I can see coaxing the most miles out of your Volt batteries as the next great motorsport. Drifting? Forget it.

Also I read somewhere that driving 70 mph with the windows down creates so much drag that it has the same impact on mileage as AC. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

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omegaman66 Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:16 pm

ksuhwail

You are right. 40 mpc end of life was the minimum goal and all indications so far is that that figure will be met. This can only mean more than 60 initially. All this other talk is just speculation.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

#42 noel park

I came up with another Volt hyper-miler idea; the Volt should have a toupe tied into the electtrical system so I can rub a ballon on it and generate electricity…..oh! And what about a bicylcle-type crank so I can pedal more energy into the system?

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JimShelton Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

It would be nice if they could reduce the size of the battery pack if they found they were way over on the 40 mile end of life requirement to keep the cost down, but I dont think it will happen.

To reduce the size of the battery pack they would have to remove some cells which would reduce the pack voltage, which will lead to higher current and decreased performance. The other option is to switch to a lower capacity cell, but I think that is too risky at this stage in the game.

We will just have to live with the extra battery only miles and the added cost :-<

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

#41, Tom M says, “At seventy plus years old I would like some comforts in life.”

Tom M, I’m 44 and I want the same comforts. I could do without the heat, but not the A/C. And I live in New England.

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Jim Rowland Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

Its like there is love in life and they are not going to let on too much info yet. After they trust her then we’ll here all about it!

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GM Volt Fan Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Hmmm …. looks like GM and their upcoming “green cars” like the Volt made the cover story of Business Week. It looks like the business press noticed that GM really IS on the green car bandwagon these days. In a big way.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_21/b4085036665789.htm?chan=magazine+channel_top+stories

After all the big gas guzzling trucks and SUVs that GM has built over the past 20 years, the business press must be wondering what’s up with all these new high gas mileage vehicles that they are developing. Instead of fighting gas mileage regulations, GM will soon be bragging about the high MPG in their cars and trucks in the next few years. The CARB folks out in California must be happy about this turn of events. GM finally got “green car” religion.

The high gas prices finally lit a fire under customers to DEMAND higher gas mileage cars and trucks. GM has gotta give the people what they want. There’s plenty of choice out there in the auto industry. These gas prices are the “new normal” that carmakers are going to HAVE TO deal with by making more hybrids like the Volt in the years ahead. GM is late to the party in getting their hybrids on the market …. better late than never though. I guess GM missing out on all the sales that the Prius is getting now woke them up …. they’d BETTER “Live Green or Die” like the article title says.

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TOM M Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

#46 Rashid

Do you think that qualifies me for the title of senior blogger on this site??
Have a great day !!!

Tom

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GM Volt Fan Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Hmmm …. looks like GM and their upcoming “green cars” like the Volt made the cover story of Business Week. It looks like the business press noticed that GM really IS on the green car bandwagon these days. In a big way.

After all the big gas guzzling trucks and SUVs that GM has built over the past 20 years, the business press must be wondering what’s up with all these new high gas mileage vehicles that they are developing. Instead of fighting gas mileage regulations, GM will soon be bragging about the high MPG in their cars and trucks in the next few years. The CARB folks out in California must be happy about this turn of events. GM finally got “green car” religion.

The high gas prices finally lit a fire under customers to DEMAND higher gas mileage cars and trucks. GM has gotta give the people what they want. There’s plenty of choice out there in the auto industry. These gas prices are the “new normal” that carmakers are going to HAVE TO deal with by making more hybrids like the Volt in the years ahead. GM is late to the party in getting their hybrids on the market …. better late than never though. I guess GM missing out on all the sales that the Prius is getting now woke them up …. they’d BETTER “Live Green or Die” like the article title says.

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TOM M Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Noel # 42 & Rashiid # 46 “This time I spelled your name right !”Sorry

This is such a great sight I hope the Lord gives me long life so I can

personnaly meet each of you at our first VOLT rally !!

Tom

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nasaman Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Re: State-of-the-art Li-Ion 40-mile battery OEM price — approx $3,500*

Re: State-of-the-art Li-Ion 10-mile battery OEM price — approx $1,750*

* Based on DOE/ Argonne National Lab/ USABC latest specifications for 100,000 unit quantities in 2011

I wouldn’t give up 30 miles of AER range for $1,750; would anyone else here?!?

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TOM M Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

#51 Nassaman

Not me, I am 18 miles from the office and have the capability of

plugging in, but still need those extra miles.

Tom

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noel park Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

#44 ThombDbhomb:

That’s what I’m talking about! 100 mile AER coming right up, courtesy of brilliant GM-Volt.com bloggers.

#49 GM Volt Fan:

Amen.

#50 TOM M:

Amen.

#51 nasaman:

Nope.

Somehow this puts me in the mind of Jean-Charles and his charming philosophical comments about how this communication process may bring the world together. We live in hopes.

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Tom Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Raymond,

The cruise power @55/60 mph with a 500W accessory load is about 25/29W.
See “Single Charge Cruise Range Simulation” under Engineering Forum for curves.

RB

See “EV Model for Simulation: GM Volt. Design your own EV” under Engineering Forum for model and parameters.

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Tom Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 1:36 pm

I forgot the k in kW in the above post. Sorry.

Raymond,

The cruise power @55/60 mph with a 500W accessory load is about 25/29 kW.
See “Single Charge Cruise Range Simulation” under Engineering Forum for curves.

RB

See “EV Model for Simulation: G

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GXT Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Oh good, Nissan has jumped on the PR wagon as well.

I too dream of the day where my car runs only on electricity and that electricity is provided by the solar panels on the top of the car. But there are excellent fuel efficient cars already available. Trade in that S10 now for a Prius, don’t wait for the Volt because by the time it is affordable/available it will be MANY years from now. At that point you probably would have already have saved more fuel than you ever would with a Volt.

Just to put the PR/bull in perspective, take note of these wild charge times and range claims. Make no mistake, GM is doing to the exact same thing with their numbers. Keep in mind their past/current disasters such as their hybrid buses, the hybrid Vue, etc. Those were all stellar PR products until reality hit. Now they are disappointments, embarrassments, and testimony to GM’s incompetence. Watch as the Volt’s numbers change as it becomes a reality.

As others have pointed out, this interview does not confirm a >40 mile range. It could just as easily be much less than 40. For all we know they had to use the full battery capacity and no accessories cruising at a constant speed to hit 40 miles. As Van pointed out, even if they do hit that “40 mile” target at x SOC, that might only mean 25Miles for the average person. We get enough smoke from GM without people interpreting the article above to mean 60+ miles of electric range.

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DaveP Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

#33 Darius, #36 BigD,
I was actually thinking 6kW was pretty small. I have a 50A (@240V) circuit running to central air, I know for a fact the AC ALONE uses 5.5kW. I already have a 50A@240V circuit running to the garage (~12kW), (which is waiting for something to plug into it but I think I put in 100A capable wiring, and I easily have the service equipment to energize that at full power, so I could have ~24kW available in the garage subpanel with little effort (clearly, I’d need some kind of fancy new car plug to handle 24kW!
My service equipment can handle 200A on each of 2 phases.
That sounds like a lot, but it’s pretty common around here. Old non-AC equipped houses usually had service equipment accomodating 50 to 100A on each phase, and newer AC equipped houses usually put in service equipment that can handle 200A on each phase.

Granted most people don’t have high power running to their GARAGE and I will say that the cost associated with dragging 100A @ 240V very far from your panel is kinda expensive. But that’s nothing compared to 200A at any distance which will shock you how expensive it is. The wire needed for 200A is about 000 AWG wire. This stuff is almost the size of garden hose and runs around four bucks a foot.
(for example: http://wesbellwireandcable.com/THHN.html )
You need 3 conductors for 2 phases, so that’s about twelve bucks a foot. Plus you’ll need some truly honkin’ conduit to put it in (and it doesn’t “pull” easily) so with installation you could easily spend a few thousand bucks just getting that kind of wiring to your garage if it’s some distance from your panel (mine is, panel is in back of the house, garage is in front).
Notice that the wire costs for ~50A is about 1/10 the cost (and pulls easily) of 200A and ~100A is rougly 2x the 50A cost. I think that puts the practical charging limit somewhere between 12kW to 24kW for customers willing to spend a few hundred bucks to drag that circuit to their garage (similar to installing wiring for central air). Anything larger than that and the installation becomes “industrial” and the cost is thousands.

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Raymond Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Thanks for the answer Tom.

I’m very affraid that 40 electric miles will be the same thing as when they tell you your car will make 35 miles to the gallon, but no matter how hard you try you never do better than 30 MPG… If they claim 40 be happy if you get 30… Which would still be fine by me. I comute about 20 miles a day. Gas in my area just went up another 20 cents/gallon today… I cannot wait to go electric. For those of you who think gas prices will eventually level, dream-on. With car ownership blossoming (explodong really) in China and India, demand will increase accordingly and so will gas prices… Also, electricity is 100% “home-grown” (and clean) where I am from, so I’ll be glad to inject that money back into my community instead of shipping those $$$ overseas.

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Theoldguy Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Next…

We seem to get different topics every day…I just hope that when the Volt comes out…. we can have a good service department at the local Chevy dealership to back it up… Parts would not be a problem.. UPS overnight ..or one of the other courier companies… Just get me a tech that actually knows what he/she is doing..

Just went through trying to set up a Warranty repair for my
07 MAXX.. just minor things.. and the Service writer had the gall to tell me that since I had filled out the service evaluation from my last visit there… and did not give them a 100 % vote of confidence for their dealership… they are not interested in servicing my car any more.. I did not buy the car there because their sales department sucks… but they were more than willing to do the warranty and non warranty work..
They had looked after my 04 Maxx from new (bought there) till I traded it in. And now…. I have gone to another Chevy Dealship (there are 3 within a 1/2 drive from my home) and they jumped at the chance to work on my car… They couldn’t beleive the arrogance of the other dealership over a service evaluation…If anything, the dealerships should be trying harder to please a customer like me as I am always buying a new vehicle (till the Volt) and sent many friends and relatives to the dealership that does the most for its customers.

GM…. maybe it time to take a real good look at some of your dealerships.. Let me know if you want the name of the dealership

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omegaman66 Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

way back in this thread I said:

You are right. 40 mpc end of life was the minimum goal and all indications so far is that that figure will be met. This can only mean more than 60 initially. All this other talk is just speculation.

Should have read:
You are right. 40 mpc end of life was the minimum goal and all indications so far is that that figure will be met. This can only mean more than 40 initially. All this other talk is just speculation.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

GXT @56

On the contrary, I think GM has been lowballing the numbers.

You will see shortly.

It doesnt pay to uncover all your cards.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Looks like GM’s first head to head competition for the Volt will be coming from Nissan. According to the Wall Street Journal, Nissan definitely IS going to develop a “series hybrid” (range extended electric car).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121074186054991351.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Ghosn said the “range extender” would be “an option for the electric car” though. Hmmm. Ghosn claims they can make a series hybrid that can do 100 miles on electricity and then the range extender kicks in to give you 300 more miles. However, Nissan is saying it will only be produced in limited numbers in 2010 and marketed globally in 2012.

Looks like GM is no longer alone among the big carmakers in building a series hybrid (E-REV). The other big carmakers ARE coming with their own series hybrids …. it’s just a matter of WHEN. The big question for the Nissan series hybrid is …. who much do they expect it to cost? What will the MSRP be? I LOVE the idea of getting 100 miles on electricity alone. THAT got my attention bigtime.

Sure would be nice if GM could pull off 100 miles of all electric range with the Volt in 2010 and surprise everyone. The BIG question is …. can Nissan or GM make these 100 mile all electric range cars for around $35,000? If it gets beyond that, it gets more and more doubtful that average folks to afford it.

People that can’t afford $35,000+ will probably just continue to be aggravated about the gas prices til 2012 or so and THEN buy one of the series hybrids like the Volt or the Nissan once they get cheaper. Once the series hybrids get to be around $25,000 or so, GM and Nissan will sell a LOT of them. By the million like the Prius is already.

There will be a lot of pent up resentment about gas prices and people will be thrilled to “stick it to OPEC and the oil companies”. I bet a lot of people already are setting aside some savings for their next hybrid car in the next few years. I know I am. I can’t wait til I no longer have to worry about gas prices so much anymore. Increasing gas prices will be an aggravation that OTHER PEOPLE have to deal with. Not me. Just big smiles as I pass those gas stations every day.

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Dave B Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

GM Volt Fan @ 62,

Nissan sure is making a whole lot of promises with 100 miles of all electric range. Now if they can pull that off during in a time frame similar to the Volt and in a price similar to the Volt…then GM has got serious competition. I’m thrilled to hear the promises, but frankly, these are pipe dreams. Detroit 2009 should be fun though!

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GM Volt Fan Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

If there’s any new folks to this gm-volt.com website that need some motivation to start saving up your money for a Volt for when it comes out in 2010, you should watch this documentary if you can. It’s (appropriately) called “Gas Hole” … probably because us drivers all over the world are “taking it up the tailpipe” because of OPEC and the big oil companies.

http://www.gasholemovie.com/Trailer.html

http://www.fox12news.com/Global/story.asp?S=8334272&nav=menu439_1

Big Oil sure has us “over a barrel” these days don’t they? It’s party time for the folks in that industry. They’re swimming in our cash these days …. robbing us like muggers at the pump every week. We’re like pathetic crack addicts at the mercy of the gangbanger dealers unless we can wean ourselves off oil soon.

I say we spoil their party in a BIG way by buying hybrids like the Chevy Volt by the MILLION in the next 5 years. Actions speak louder than words. Buying a Volt will let Hugo Chavez, the ultra rich Middle East oil sheiks and OPEC know that “we don’t NEED your steaaaanking oil”!!

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N Riley Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Thanks, GXT.

Just what we needed. Positive comments. Like we need a hole in the head.

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N Riley Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

As far as Nissan having a Volt competitor ready by 2010, I think it is more PR now than reality. They are a little late to the party, but could certainly make it a real date if they throw everything at the problem. I think it is a little bit of Nissan not wanting to look like it didn’t have a party dress to wear to the dance.

But, I do wish them well. I drive a 2000 Nissan Frontier Crew Cab pickup. It only gets 16 mpg around town and 19 on the road. The previous Nissan pickup I owned (a 1986 extended cab Frontier) did not do overly well on mpg, either. But after saying that, both have been excellent trucks. So, go on Nissan. Do one better than the Volt, if you can. Let the race begin, indeed.

I’ll still buy the Volt.

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Van Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

The reason the design only uses 8 KWH out of the 16 KWH is to allow for loss of battery capacity over time. Hence, it starts at 16 and say deteriorates to 12 over 10 years. But since the design only uses 8 KWH, the range does not decrease, it gets 40 at the beginning, and it gets 40 at the end. All this speculation that the range will start out above 40 then decrease to 40 miles simply misunderstands the design concept.

It is reasonable to expect to get 32 miles of AER using 8 KWH, 4 miles per KWH when the Volt is brand new and when it is several years old. This is what the computer simulation achieved using the US06 drive cycle. Even if you drive like a high school kid, you should still get at least 24 miles of AER.

Steady-state highway speed power consumption works out to a range of less than 30 miles.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

What a diference a day makes. We are back to our regular level of comments.

#56 GXT
If GM were over-promising for PR purposes, that would eventually backfire. What PR good comes from over-promising? Skepticism has its place. But, be careful about being overly skeptical. Some here are reserving judgement pending additional data, like driving conditions, s-o-c, etc. That seems rational.

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George K Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

#15 jimmy
This is a huge milestone. In my estimation it will only be surpassed by the….

Driving the Volt off the lot!

(Quote)
Scott Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

Van #67:
GM has never mentioned allowing to battery to drop below 50% SOC and there’s no evidence to support they will. If there is show me. The idea that they will allow that they will allow the SOC to drop as the battery ages is simply an assumption on your part. Lithium Ion batteries cannot be deep discharged. It damages the cells beyond recovery. This has been known for many years and all lithium ion batteries are rated to a minimum discharge voltage. The RC community knows this well. GM certainly knows this and is willing to go with a conservative 50% SOC limit in order to extend the life of the batteries to withstand at least 3700 charge cycles. The bottom line is the discharge limit of the battery will remain at or very close to 8KWh and it is possible that the vehicle, when new, could exceed 50mpc.

Also, Where is the source for the 32 miles AER? Was that GM’s calculation or someone else?

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Tagamet Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

More good news for the rational posters here. Well, maybe that’s not entirely true. There are some rational people here who can spin and twist any good news into something unrecognizeably negative. I figured that by posting something generic, that it’s minimize the troll food (probably wrong though, heehee)

If the pattern hoilds, GM has been under-promising and over-performing, so when the truth catches up to them, they will look even better. They can’t AFFORD anything less – on a lot of levels.
PS Tom: how’d you run the numbers without a cD?

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

PPS Where’s ARCH???? I love the extra links he’s always providing!

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Exp_EngTech Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

#67 Van / #69 Scott

See..

http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/

The production Volt will control the individual cells in the T Pack (contains 6 battery modules?) so that they are always in the 30% to 80% SOC (state of charge) range. A few months ago, I read somewhere that A123 had a lot of test data that showed the 30% – 80% range limit was the “sweet spot” to get great longevity out of the individual cells. That’s really the name of the game. We may see 7K+ charge/discharge cycles without much drop off in charge capacity.

I believe that the overall capacity of the pack (16 KWH) is a result of the 40 mile range requirement and the need to keep cells/modules in that 30% to 80% “state of charge” at all times.

I’m sure A123 will find little ways to further improve the Energy Density of the cells and that will translate to a little better range.

(Quote)
Scott Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

Exp_EngTech:
yes, I incorrectly said 50% SOC for the discharge limit. The minimum is 30% SOC with a maximum 80% SOC. It still adds up to 50% capacity usage so everything else is the same.

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Jeff Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

This is a great blog….info from someone that is closer to the details. I hope the results stay positive, however…

With results this great, I hope GM pushes the envelope on testing. What can the vehicle really withstand? Any test tracks above the artic circle? in Death Valley?

How about a cross the country drive without plugging it in…fuel only? It seems that they are focusing on the battery storage. Everyone knows that someone will buy a VOLT and use fuel (gasoline) only.

What if the battery pack enters a “failure mode”? Can you drive without the battery?

List goes on, and on, and on…the VOLT could be the most reliable vehicle ever.

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Van Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 7:36 pm

Just a little bit on State of Charge, SOC. There are lots of ways to estimate the SOC and my example is probably not how Volt has chosen to do it. But it is simply to illustrate the design concept. Say a new battery had a voltage of 3.6 volts per cell when fully charged. And a voltage per cell of 2.6 volts when discharged. Thus when the cell voltage increased to 3.4 volts, the charger would stop charging, having reached “80%” of the initial SOC. You drive until the battery voltage per cell reaches 2.9 volts (the 30% SOC level) and the amount of juice extracted from the battery is 50% of the initial state of charge or 8 KWH. Time passes and cell capacity diminishes so that it is fully charged at 3.5 volts per cell. The charger still shuts down when the charge reaches 3.4 volts and the ICE still kicks in at 2.9 volts, and the amount of power pulled from the battery remains 8 KWH.

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omegaman66 Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

Great post Van. This website is a lot like science. The more you learn the more questions come up. Wish articles were longer while still covering the same topic just in more detail.

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Jeff J Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

#59 theoldguy

Your post hit home with me , I,m a past GM tech that worked at a local GMC buick dearship , 1. the best techs never stay at the dealers , as a tech you would get screwed doing warranty work , most of the time half pay or labor rate ,,all times are based on book time . 2nd most dealers and owners , have never turned a wrench a day in their life , so they have zero understanding of the techs way of life or how much time we have to put into just hunting down elec. problems. 3 not all dealer shops are the same some owners do care and most tech are very honest guys just trying to feed their families. I am sorry you had bad time and ran into A-hole shop,Please shop around and before your car breaks again go and meet with some local techs most of us are pretty smart guys that love talking shop. If you have a question you can reach me at http://www.atcbg.com

PS I was let go from that shop because I refused to add parts to cars that the customer didn’t need!!!! I sleep well at night!!

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Jeff J Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

Oh yeah at native american on the phone is me ! Have a great weekend !!!!!!!!!!!

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o.jeff Says:
May 16th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

The entire Volt program is so amazing in a lot of ways. Can you recall any other time in your life when you actually knew the names of the people who are creating your next car?!?!

With Lyle’s help, we hear almost weekly from people who are directly responsible for developing the Volt.

Nor have I ever felt such a strong desire for any company to be successful as I have with GM and the Volt. I hope the GMers sense this as well. Good luck guys — your success is very important to me, to us, to our country, to our environment, to our economy, and to the world.

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 7:10 am

Gas up again.. No surprise. I for one will be driving my volt on all electric only. GM still would like a BEV version of the volt. Any chance? 239 410-8826.

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charley497 Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 10:45 am

I have some experience with lithium batteries. I have been flying RC airplanes for 20 years. Me and my friends are flying a lot of electric’s now and I learned some important lessons about lithium batteries. If you let the battery get below 3 volts per cell the battery won’t take a charge. I know because I ruined two 50.00 batteries in one day. To be safe I don’t let the batteries get below 75 percent of full charge. That means a 3 cell fully charged to about 12.5 volt battery cannot drop below 9 volts or it ruined. If The volt battery can drop to 50 percent and not be hurt my hat is off to GM.

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charley497 Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am

opps, It’s ruined not it ruined.

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Tom Says:
May 17th, 2008 at 11:41 am

Tagemet,

See Forum, Engineering, “EV Model for Simulation: GM Volt. Design your own EV.” It has the model and all the design parameters. I used a very aggressive value for Cd: 0.22. Much better than the Prius 0.26. After reading about all the GM wind tunnel work, I thought that they would try to best Prius. The body stylists probably have other ideas. If anybody has technical input on Cd or frontal cross sectional area let me know.

Van,

A123 Systems is claiming 1000 cycle life @10C for 100% DOD.

Tom

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doggydogworld Says:
May 21st, 2008 at 2:12 pm

#57 Tom,

The cruise power @55/60 mph with a 500W accessory load is about 25/29 kW.

This looks to be high by a factor of two. At 29 kW/60 mph Volt EV range would be only 16 miles. Similar vehicles such as Prius run around 12-14 kW at 60 mph. Furthermore, your own comments in and graphs in the Forums indicate more like 12-14 kW.

(Quote)
Tom Says:
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:15 am

doggydogworld,

You are correct in your statement about range (under the assumed conditions). If you look at the attachment “EV_Car_Volt 3a” in Forum, Engineering, “Requested Modified Model Parameters – Thanks for the feedback”, at the very end of the attachment, the number for Cruise Power at 60 mph is 14.9 kW. The higher number for cruise power you mentioned in your post is for a road grade of 3%. The range with 3% grade is about 17 miles. With about 8.5 recharges per tank with the single 6 gal gas tank, the range per tank @60 mph with a 3% grade is about 146 miles or 2.5 hours.

One of the reasons I did the model is to be able to ask “what if?” questions. I would hate to drive on a steep grade only to get stuck after 2.5 hours.

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BillR Says:
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:08 am

Tom,

I haven’t looked in great detail at your model as of yet, but it appears to be correct (my calc’s indicated a need for an additional 5 kW power of power for every 1% in grade, based on a fully loaded 4000 lb Volt traveling at 60 mph). See more here:

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133

However, remember that as you climb, you need more power. As you decend, the regen brakes return energy to the battery pack. For the 17 mile electric range while climbing a 3% grade, your elevation is increasing about 160 feet per minute. After 17 minutes of steady climbing at 60 mph, you will have increased altitude by 2700 feet. Not something you will do in Florida or Kansas.

As far as 146 miles or 2.5 hours of climbing, this equates to an elevation change of 23,400 feet. Unless you are driving in the Himalayas, I don’t see this scenario playing out in the real world.

Also, based on nasaman’s latest info that the Volt’s AER may exceed 65 miles when the battery pack is new, would obviously change some of these results as well.

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doggydogworld Says:
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:57 am

at the very end of the attachment, the number for Cruise Power at 60 mph is 14.9 kW.

Indeed. This is the number Raymond asked for (actually 55 mph), not the 25/29 kW number you gave him. I was just trying to make that clear.

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Tom Says:
May 22nd, 2008 at 3:51 pm

BillR,

Why do you need more power as you climb with an EV? I would think you need less power because the air density decreases and so does drag.

One scenario we occasionally have in Florida is high wind. 45 mph headwind @55mph would require 23 kW and reduce single charge range to 18 miles.

My model accommodates variable SOC for recharge. I have heard that the Volt has a separate 12V battery for accessory power. A 200 Ahr @ 50% SOC 12V battery is enough to supply all accessory power during a single 320V battery (50%SOC) discharge cycle. Therefore, I will have to eliminate accessory power drain from my single charge 320V battery range calculations. I don’t know if there is any significant drain/switching losses at idle speed from the 320V battery.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:08 am

#81 Tom

I guess my wording was not the best.

“However, remember that as you climb, you need more power. As you decend, the regen brakes return energy to the battery pack.”

All I am trying to say is that in typical driving cycles you don’t just climb. Obviously, it takes more power and energy to climb a hill than driving on a level surface. By the same token, as you decend a hill, your regen braking is returning energy to the battery pack.

So granted, if you are on the east side of the Rocky Mountains, and head west over a mountain pass, you could use up your electric range before reaching the highest elevation. However, on the way back down, you would actually charge your battery pack and perhaps have a 40 mile AER once you return to plateau level.

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BillR Says:
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:09 am

Sorry, meant to say #91 Tom

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