AND 
BIG NEWS from Bob Lutz: First Chevy Volt Prototype Hits the Road and Gets 40 Miles Electric!
In the biggest news since the initial concept announcement, GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz confirmed that in fact the first Chevy Volt prototype, with the full lithium-ion battery pack has hit the test track.
He said “It is reliably meeting its objectives. Even with a rough calibration, even with the wrong drive unit, the wrong body, etc. etc., it has been hitting its 40 miles on electric power.”
He specifically confirmed the dynamometer tests have been successful even under various thermal conditions.
He even went so far as to say “I can almost say the battery is the least of our problems,”
He further explains that much of the engineering challenge ahead has to do with software, figuring out how and when the engine should kick in for example.
He notes that he is much more confident in the November 2010 deadline. He talks about Volt vehicle line executive Frank Weber in the following way:
“Three months ago if you asked Frank Weber ’so November 2010?’ he’d get flustered and say he wouldn’t answer until he knew more, now if you ask him the same question, he’s calm and relaxed and says unless we encounter some completely unforeseen obstacle – November 2010 looks good.”
Finally he confirms that CEO Wagoner is as involved in the Volt project just as much as he is, confirming extreme interest in it straight from the top.
Source (Autoobserver)
May 14th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Indeed, another great milestone! Thanks (Lyle and others) for helping keep us up to date on the latest and greatest!
On a side note, “pics or it didn’t happen…”
May 14th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Freakin awesome news. If the mule is getting 40 miles with beta software and the totally wrong body, the battery should provide substantially more mileage in the production model. Go GM go!!!
May 14th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
November 2010…better save up!..
May 14th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
You can do it!!!!!
May 14th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Now, it’s down to retail price…
May 14th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
I never had any doubt!
May 14th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Hm, did WonderBob himself drive it?
May 14th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
This is great! Since the mule is hitting 40 miles per charge I wonder if an aerodynamically designed Volt can do better? hmmmm…
May 14th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Woooohoooo!
I can’t think of any program execution done so well, outside of the defense industry during the war effort. Excellent execution all the way down the line, by GM and their suppliers – all should be well rewarded for their efforts.
I hope they understand how big an impact this will have on not just their company, but on America’s economy, trade deficit, falling dollar, etc.
May 14th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I find the statement by Bob Lutz interesting when he said “much of the engineering challenge ahead has to do with software, figuring out how and when the engine should kick in for example.”
A recent Technology Review article on Volvo’s plans for a vehicle with electric motors attached to all 4-wheels mentioned software development as one of the most critical issues with that vehicle.
May 14th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
YES!! Great job GM!! Saving up for my Volt! I’d put my money on it that it gets 50+ miles all eletric when it finally comes out.
May 14th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
This is really great news! The Malibu achieves 40 miles in all-electric mode so could this mean the Volt’s range will be even greater?
With the outstanding performance let’s hope GM considers marketing a Malibu plug-in as well as the Volt. Some updated Volt-Malibu test track photos from GM would be welcome.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
So the mule with the wrong co-efficient of drag, wrong electric motor, power electronics and everything still made 40 miles electric?
Awesome!
Is that on the 50%DOD though, and what is the #Wh/mile? GM has played it extremely smart by oversizing the pack and giving them some “wiggle room”. I’m just wondering how much they need to wiggle.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Do you know what this means? This means that with the optimized body, drivetrain, power electronics, etc., they’ll be able to have a 40 mile range with fewer cells in their battery. That means a cheaper, lighter car.
Awesome!
May 14th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
This means that they may be able to use smaller (and cheaper) battery packs for the 40 mile target range in the final production Volt.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Well, I’d like a longer range, myself (I drive 70 miles round-trip for work), but a cheaper car with a 40-mile range would probably better for a wider group of potential buyers, I guess. Which means the concept/technology would be more likely to catch on, which is good news for us all.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
#12, I’m not sure if 40 miles or 45 miles really makes any difference. Hopefully they can decrease the size of the battery and address (probably) their biggest issue: price.
More details:
What does “wrong drive unit” mean? How does it differ? Was the AC on? Headlights? Stereo? Constant speed or stop and go? What speed? How much is it beating the 40 miles by? Is that using the entire capacity of the battery or the <70%(?) that I believe they have mentioned previously?
May 14th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I doubt they will change the size of the battery pack since the pack will loose power over time. Don’t they want the Volt to get 40 miles after 10 years and 150,000 miles?
But i was reading a lot of posts form the last article and i agree thye need to use the e-flex system in several models to be successful. but i’m pretty sure we are not telling them anything they don’t already know.
I currently drive an S-10 treat it horrible change the oil every 4-6 months and have had no major problems it is a 99 so maybe the quality has gone down since then?
I’m saving my money!!!
May 14th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Great news! But, gosh darn it this good news just was not enough for some of us. Come on, guys. This is good news. Thankfully, most of the comments are very positive. I agree we all want more information. Give GM time. They will do this.
Go GM. Go Volt.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
To hear they’re having such success with the mule is very encouraging. Now if they can just nail down the price and keep their financial head above water until 2010…
May 14th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Byron
Every car maker sells a lemon vehicle. Some of us are lucky and never buy one. Some of us are not so lucky. You don’t always hear from the lucky ones, but you darn sure do from the unlucky ones.
I believe, being a Japanese vehicle owner, when an American buys a foreign auto we have a tendency to be a little self conscious of doing so and will not admit buying a lemon or having more problems than we think is normal. One thing I find true is Japanese car companies push maintenance much more than American car companies. Or maybe no more, but we self consciously treat our foreign car better because we want to prove ourselves right in our buying choice. We do some things for reasons that we do not fully understand. I think Ford and GM are a lot closer in quality and value to the Japanese than some of us may want to admit. I know we have better quality and value than most European exports. Ford and GM autos seem to outlast European autos. Or, maybe I am just imagining it.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
#21
I understand what your saying!
I’m not going to be in the market for a car until i graduate college in 2010 which sets up well for a new VOLT!!
i hope GM does this well, and paces themselves with PR’s because November of 2010 is a long way away they don’t want people to loose excitement. Although i guess the 4.00 gal gas is the incentive
May 14th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
I have a 2004 Toyota Tacoma, it has had break issues since I bought it. It was built in America. The problem is UAW. Union employees expect too much and don’t work with care and diligence. They know they can’t be fired so they work with a piss poor attitude. I will guarantee you Toyota does not have the union problems American car makers have.
I still believe GM can overcome in spite of UAW.
I can’t wait to trade in my Toyota for a Volt.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
This is GREAT!!!… Where can I send my deposit????
May 14th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
BigCityCat
The UAW is and has been part of the problem. But all big unions are a problem. Union leaders are like politicians. They want your vote and your money. They then take the money and buy expensive office buildings, cars and jet planes. They live high on the hog while the poor guy on the assembly line only makes $50.00 per hour.
Unions by themselves are not bad. It is the people who run the unions who are bad. The poor working stiff gets stiffed again. Why do you think they call them working stiffs?
May 14th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Sentinel (and others)
You can send your deposits to: N Riley, P O Box 9999….. AH=h well, you probably would not fall for it anyway.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I agree this is fabulous news, but I’d sure like to know if “40 miles” means…
1. “40 miles at freeway speeds,”
2. “40 miles at low surface-street speeds,” or
3. Some combination thereof.
The improved cD of the final body won’t mean much if the Mali-mule prototype was being tested at 30MPH.
Nevertheless, it’s great to hear! Keep it up GM!
May 14th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
This is great news for GM and for all of us sick and tired of paying through the nose for gas! I bet the production Volt will get 50 miles or better per charge if the mule gets 40. I can’t wait for the opportunity to buy this car!!
May 14th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Glad to hear that it gets 40 miles on electric, but I really want to know about performance. Can it accelerate to freeway speeds uphill? I would trade range to get a certain minimum necessary performance.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
This is great news!!
For months, the biggest concern was always the battery pack, but now, that no longer seems to be the main issue. And in a previous post, Jon Lauckner stated that everything besides the battery pack was well-defined, for instance 90% of the powertrain has been spec’d to suppliers.
http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/28/how-much-will-the-chevy-volt-cost/
Now software development becomes the major task, but I don’t envision it being as complicated as the 2-mode hybrids, where the drivetrain power can come from the electric motors, ICE, or both. And all the reviews that I have read on the 2-mode system indicate that the transitions are very seamless and smooth.
I would say GM is making great progress on this vehicle! Glad to hear it.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
#10 Estero,
Yes, the software is a big issue. You may recall when the Prius was in the news in 2005 because a software glitch was causing them to stall, and some could not be started. Media made a big deal of it, and scared away a lot of buyers at the time. It took about a year for it to be forgotten.
That really hurt the Prius reputation back then, even though only 33 out of 75,000 actually had the problem. That’s .00044%.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Bob Lutz said “It is reliably meeting its objectives. Even with a rough calibration, even with the wrong drive unit, the wrong body, etc. etc.,”
I wonder if that include abuse battery as well. That info sure would boost my encouragement if they have said that.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
40 miles is the target for end of life. It’s encouraging to see they can get 40 miles out of a Malibu, which doesn’t have particularly optimized aero.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I would really like to know how much further an aerodynamically designed Volt can go.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
#25–
$50/hr over a year of 40 hr/wk is $109,000. I wouldn’t quite call that “only” — I’m graduating college (tomorrow! yay) and coming out making $50,000; something about that seems wrong, which goes on to point out how unreasonable unions can be, and the UAW is the poster child of that. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for union workers to pay for part of their health care, have 401(k)s instead of pensions, etc. But every time GM/Ford/whomever wants to make a financial decision for the good of the company, the union is up in arms.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aBZUjbUBbXkk&refer=home
Your $50/hr is actually low; it works out to $73 and change (as of 2006) when benefits and pensions are accounted for.
Further, the Big 3 automakers are paying workers not to work! http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm — of course the UAW would strike forever if that deal was ever considered in a renegotiation.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
OK I’m ready to choose a trim and color package…this is going to be a long wait till Nov 2010.
Just guessing the mule is less aero and heavier than the “Volt”, so this is breakthrough news for us fans. Wondering if there is AC on the mule for accuracy in testing and how long does it take to recharge?
Go GM go go go.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
An electric motor on each wheel is much more complicated than a single electric motor driving a mechanical power distribution system. It is potentially more efficient too. Each wheel would have to sense traction and be controlled independently with the Volvo. The logic for a good fuel injection is more complicated than deciding when the generator motor should turn on.
I would’t mind making $50 an hour and I have an engineering degree.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
I’m seriously worried about heating of Volt in winter climate. It may eat up the battery horribly quickly. Not everyone lives in California, you know. I hope they invent something clever about that.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
And then Obi-Wan said, “I just felt a terrible disturbance in the force…almost as if all 20,000 people on the Volt waiting list all just reached out for their Kleenex together”
Oh PLEASE! My 1998 Citroen Berlingo Electrique still goes 60nM per charge on it’s ANCIENT technology NiCads!
SO…… while this IS good news along the ‘road to Damascus’, it’s not exactly a miracle:
Now, Gandalf the Grey returning as Gandalf the White – THAT was a miracle!…….;-)
May 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Alexander,
Sweaters? Just kidding.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Alexander
Don’t you think the ICE could provide heat in extreme climates? It would mean burning a little more fuel when the heater’s fluid (water) became cooler than a certain level. That would not take any battery power and should only be used in extreme temperatures. In the South, where I live, a small electric heater could do most of the job. At times the ICE would have to be used.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
…and it’s not even shaped like a brick…it IS a brick!
May 14th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
pete k
Bear with us on this, Pete. This crowd needs any good news it can find.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I’m sure they are being conservative on the 40 mile range. I expect they are shooting for 40 miles under worse case conditions like, old battery, heater/AC on, extreme temperatures, hilly terrain, etc. This can make a huge difference in range. I also think that some companies, like Fisker, probably estimate the best case scenario for range, as in new battery going a steady 50 mph on a flat road in mild temperatures. I don’t know why else range estimates seem to vary so much for all of these much anticipated 2010 cars.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
A123 cells are capable of accepting the charge very rapidly. I think the limit will be what your house is willing to give. We use the cells to power model airplanes and charge them at multiples of their capacity. If you roughly estimate that you can go 40 miles in an hour and the battery is depleted, it would be possible to charge it in 15 or twenty minutes, but the amps needed would be prohibitive. It would be like the on demand hot water heaters, 70 amps to charge a 140 amp hour battery in two hours.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
So we have just got to integrate the ICE to the drive and it is reams of software?
Well I hope they do that in parallel with setting up the assembly line.
For those of you that remember “Ben Hur”
Lets go to ramming speed.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Awesome! A working electric Malibu with a 40 mile range (plus extender, too). I mean, that’s a pretty cool trick, as the Malibu is not a car that you would normally think to convert to electric drive. It’s big and heavy and kinda blocky… If they can get THAT to work, the Volt (with all their customized design effort into it already) is going to be a big piece of cake.
Also, I’m really glad to hear they’re seriously thinking about the charging algorithms. I mentioned it before during the Pulse&Glide article that I figured the most likely cause of Volt drivers acting weirdly is trying to get thier charger to stop charging as soon as they have enough range to get home!
It’s probably going to be the #1 issue for people with slightly more than 40 mile commutes and could make a huge difference in actual mileage.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
N Riley # 19
Agree with your comment about the smaller quality gap now between Japanese and US branded vehicles. Our large company fleet has long been a mix of US branded full size 4 doors with some SUVs thrown in for the more northern locales. In recent years shop time is almost exclusively routine service and inspection vs repair. Turnover mileage was raised from 45K many years ago to about 55K now.
Thinking a VOLT should be in the shop even less…
May 14th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Bravo People!!!
May 14th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Hey a quick question,
Is the pure 40mile electric range at 50km/hr, 100km/hr or what speed? Thanks
May 14th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
This is amazing news! I bet when all is said and done the volt will give a closer to 50 mile all electric range. This is gonna be a real winner for GM… Viva La Revolution…
May 14th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
GXT #17. Great questions. I wonder the same thing. What does 40 miles mean? What kind of 40 miles?
May 14th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Great news.
There is not a moment to be lost.
Time’s a wastin’
Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.
May 14th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Anyone else wondering what the weight differential will be between the production volt and the mule? Will the volt weigh the same, more or less?
May 14th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
My guess is that the mule has been stripped of its heavier unnecessary components in order to more closely match the eventual production volt weight! I’m sure that with the hundreds of engineers and billions of dollars spent the final product will be streamlined to perfection. If they can get forty miles on a full charge from the mule it only figures that the end result will surpass previous conservative estimates. These guys have learned a lot (the hard way) from the EV1 project, they are not about to make promises they can’t keep!
May 14th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Better open CD account now and save up! great news by the way.
Go GM Go!
May 14th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
#21, N Riley. I will admit it. Up until last week, I had a complete piece of junk Suburu Outback. I was made in Japan. It was a real turnoff for me.
May 14th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Sorry. I wasn’t made in Japan. The Subaru was.
May 14th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
If this car will be priced around $40,000, it might just be a novelty item which won’t sell well.
We need a volkswagon type electric car that most families can afford. Use it to run errands, make small trips etc. Half of the driving done in the US could be accomplished with such a vehicle.
IMHO
May 14th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
9 years ago i paid €3000 for a 400mhz Pentium 3 computer, it was state of the art then! today you can get get a computer that’s 10 times as powerful for a tenth of the price. The most costly part of the volt is the battery and i predict that with the weight of the major car companies behind this technology, by 2015 you will be able to buy a 200 mile range Ev for the same relative price of a gasoline car!
May 14th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Keep going GM. Don’t rest. We need to make this happen.
May 14th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
I said this 10 months ago – software will be the long pole in the tent, not the batteries. I hope GM authorizes overtime pay for Volt software engineers…
May 14th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Gary Goggin #59 –
Anything over 100 miles per charge (MPC) is a waste. Most people will only need 40 MPC. Even if batteries get 10 times cheaper, 200 MPC will still be a significant cost, not to mention weight.
There is also the issue of charging a 200 MPC car. Normal house circuits won’t do this overnight.
I think 2015 will show us plug-in hybrid cars that get 30-70 MPC and don’t cost much more than regular ICE cars. That’s what most people need. There will also be some high-end pure EVs for people that afford another car for long trips.
May 14th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Several people have mentioned the heating problem. Creating heat with electricity is a sin. Hi quality energy converted to low quality heat is not good. Now back in the 60s I had a Corvair and it never killed me. When I bought it I got the optional gasoline heater. The heater ran on gasoline. I rewired it so I could go out on a cold day and fire up the heater without the engine running. Even later in its life I added a duct so it would heat the engine so that it would start on a cold winter day. I have no idea how efficient they were but they would sure put out the heat. Even very good for a very cold night with your girl parked on a country road. LOL
Take Care
Arch
May 14th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Dave G
The Tesla roadster can get 200 mpc now! The more major auto companies start pushing Ev’s the more likely we will see breakthrough after breakthrough in both battery tech, ultra capacitors and software advances etc! i believe the volt represents a change in the zeitgeist and as a result it will expedite these technologies. I’m old enough to remember the spectrum 48! typing code for hours from a bi monthly computer mag and then looking on in awe as a triangle appeared on the monitor! I really think we are at the beginning of a revolution.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Now what do you suppose has become of all those claimed skeptics who early on predicted that the Volt was some sort of billion dollar
sleight of hand? Where are those morons and why don’t they have the guts to admit that they were full of it? With their imagination for braindead conspiracy theories (Chris Paine, are you out there?), I wonder which one of them will find some reason for claiming that the Volt is something other than what it so obviously has become. Prepare for another blasphemy against logical thinking.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Way to go Volt Team!!!
Looking forward the greatest car yet!
May 14th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
The scale of the heating problem seems to be what everyone is missing. The Batteries carry enough energy to push a huge car around. Is it 50-60Kwh or something? You can run a 1kW electric fire off that for an hour and use less than a couple of persent of the charge. And with that kind of heat you could cook a lamb roast in the car.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
All the President’s Men is a great movie. Non – denial denials, with no one going “on the record.” Did the Volt Mule go 40 miles using less than 8 KWH of battery capacity? That was the implication, but why did they not go on the record? Since the Volt only travels by electric power, any distance over 40 miles hits the mark of traveling 40 miles on electric power, in that it traveled on electric power.
Did it hit the mark of a zero to 60 time less than 9 seconds?
I will wait until Lyle actually drives a mule and reports on its actual performance.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
This is all good news about the volt and a chance for America to get out from under the Arab sandal and thumb its nose at Venezuela. If the Volt catches on it will be goodbye to oil imports from unstable backstabbing countries over the next decade.
I hope America shows loyalty to GM buys the Volt and not some Asian knockoff.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
I would imagine the volt would use a heat pump system like what was in the ev1 & s-10 E that would cool the battery back while charging and if i recall correctly would also heat-cool the cabin using power from the grid before you unplugged it.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Who knows how we can track the price of Lithium between now and Volt release ? I see that the stock price of one of the 2 domestic producers has roughly doubled in the last 12 months .
May 14th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
This is great news. Too bad I won’t be able to afford one. And now I hear perhaps the 3g Prius is going to be larger (which means more expensive). Of course, I also hear the 3g Prius was going to have 3 models (sizes), small, medium (current size) and large.
Maybe two cars from now I will be able to afford the Volt’s smaller version (not starting any rumors) but makes sense there will be Volt offspring from GM someday.
2010 should be a great year for next technology vehicles.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Lyle — It is really great news. We all are pressing for more details because of our enthusiasm.
#72 Bill — As of now there are no prices. We can remain hopeful.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
#17 GXT
I would imagine they used the EPA mixed city and highway cycle during the range test. The testing was probaby also done in Michigan so the temperature would have been in the neighborhood of 60 degrees. They may have simulated an electrical load to mimic using accesories, but the mule car probably doesn’t have the electric heating and cooling that the Volt will have.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
This is very good news, no doubt. However, I wonder how much impact certain crtiical components such as A/C, power steering and lighting will have on the AER. GM is reportedly working on replacements for such systems that draw much less power, and lighting is already there with LEDs, but how close are reliable “low power consumption” A/C, power steering and audio systems to reality?
May 14th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
#46 DaveP
I would like to see a switch that would turn on the ice. There are a number of reasons for this. Your example is one. Another is where you want to arrive at a location with a good amount of charge, like a downtown, so you don’t pollute.
Regarding the ice cycling: I would like to see it figure out if you are on the freeway. In that case, after 40 miles, stay on. If not on the freeway, I would like it to cycle on and off.
Also, I really hope the engine is well insulated so it can barely be heard in the cabin. It would be cool to have some kind of small indicator that the ice is on.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Lyle, this is surely good news. OK GM start the tooling. If I can multitask so can you. Build the car. NOW….. Love that VOLT.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
#63 Arch – “Creating heat with electricity is a sin.”
Ha Ha! I got a great laugh out of that. Very true and probably only an engineer can appreciate that comment.
I can imagine the ICE contributing to the heating of the batteries. If GM is smart, (and they are) there will be a water loop for the battery pack that can accept rejected heat from the engine.
I fully expect that the Volt will get 50 miles+ when it’s new, and under aggressive conditions. Maybe get 60+ miles under ideal conditions. That’s good news.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
As someone mention, using electricity for heating the Volt would be a sin. Electricity is the worst way to heat, period! Whether it’s a home or whatever. Also, someone mention using a gas heater like the one used in the Corvair of years ago.,Now that makes sense. Using fuel is a much more efficient way of heating. This method could be use in conjunction with the ICE. If you driving and the battery is partially depleted, the ICE could kick in to top off the battery and at the same time provide heat the way our present cars do. If the battery is fully charged,then the gas heater would do the job.
When it comes to Air conditioning, the problem becomes more acute. An electric A/C compressor draws a huge load and again, I don’t think GM will go that route. I think GM will use the ICE to rotates the compressor and at the same time, it will generate electricity to charge the battery or for whatever.
The ICE will be tune to it’s sweet spot around 1800 rpm and rotate at that speed. At that speed the ICE lends itself to a new technology called HCCI. If GM uses HCCI the ICE efficiency could increase by 15 to 20 percent.
These are just some of my ideas from a lifetime of experience in engineering.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
jscott
Just glad somebody understood what I said. LOL
Take Care
Arch
May 14th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Dave G #61,
Software is always a challenge on a complicated project, as you know. I have said in the past on this blog that this is probably the most software intense car built to date. So surely GM, in a systematic way, is using software inspections where multiple software engineers inspect each other’s code looking for best design and looking for errors. The more eyes looking at and reading the code the better. I am sure GM management knows that transparency helps produce better code with fewer errors. Even though the code is done by individual programmers the code can’t be “owned” by individual programmers it must be “owned” by the whole team.
This is a great milestone GM, and I wish you the best. We need this car.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
79 Joe
Glad to see that somebody else understood what I said. I also agree that the volt needs a SMART computer ti figure out where to switch the loads to at any given time.
Take Care
Arch
May 14th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
#75 Bernie Torbik
“I wonder how much impact certain crtiical components such as A/C, power steering and lighting will have on the AER.”
In previous posts, we heard from GM that power requirements for A/C, power steering, audio, wipers, and the like were issues to overcome. We didn’t hear that in this post. We heard, “He further explains that much of the engineering challenge ahead has to do with software.” So, perhaps, low power consumption doo-dads are not a big enough issue for GM to mention.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Considering the GM (actually Aerovironment) EV1 got 140 miles per charge on older battery technology and older software technology, 40 miles on pure electric is a HUGE step backwards. I have always wondered why they are only shooting for 40 miles. Why not 100? They’ve already done better than that 15 years ago with the EV1. Even the ‘tiny’ Tesla Roadster (now shipping) gets 227 miles on a full charge, and its faster than most Ferraris and Lamborhinis.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
start small , forget the computer and put a button to start the engine and a gauge to check battery level and start selling the car next week.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Quote from the referenced article:
“GM engineers are grappling with such questions as: When does the gas engine cut in? How long does it stay on? Is it better to run at lesser power and charge the battery slowly or run at peak power and charge the battery fast? How does it deal with extreme cold days in Alaska or North Dakota, which require the gasoline engine to start the car and warm the battery? If the car’s GPS or OnStar tells the car it is close to home, is there a way for it to tell the engine to charge the engine just enough to get home and plug in versus charging the whole battery using gasoline in the last 15 minutes? How does it handle wide variations in temperatures with accessories on?”
From the above paragraph it sounds like GM has not settled on how much to charge the battery with the ICE. I though it was settled that the ICE would just sustain the battery at about the 30% level while ICE is running. Does anyone else have the same question? When Volt was first announced GM had advertised that you could charge the battery while in Park, but it sounds like GM is thinking of charging while driving, at least in some cases.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Thats awesome! Yah, it may seem like a step backward, but how many people do you personally know that own a EV1?…oh thats right they never sold them to anyone…then crushed them…so its only 40 miles, for now. 40 miles on lectric is much better than say…30 mpg in a malibu at $4.00 freakin dollars a gallon.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
This is exciting news indeed!!!
My biggest concern is HEAT.
Ambient heat.
Having the vehicle sitting in the sun in a Wal-Mart parking lot when it’s 117f outside and 145f on the inside worries me.
HOWEVER,
I’m sure that GM would not deliver a vehicle system that would not be capable of managing this heat.
In the past, it’s this heat that has prevented me from buying an AC propulsion’s eBox or others. (They informed me that the battery would not be very happy in this environment)
I’m keeping my fingers crossed and my wallet ready.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
40 miles…Common GM lest push it a little harder. This mileage should be doubled. At least.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
..another thought on my #83 comment: maybe the prototype didn’t have A/C, power steering, audio, wipers, and the like.
The AutoObserver article said, “the vehicle’s innovative gas-electric powertrain is being test-driven for the first time on public roads.” Is that different from Lyle’s “the test track?”
May 14th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Paul
I agree if we have power at the batteries then why should we have hot cars to come back to? Give us cool cars to come back to as we leave Wal-Mart. LOL
Take Care
Arch
May 14th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Dave G #61, C.C. #81
Absolutely correct. Even if the battery right now only using 50% can do 60 miles with A/C, there is still a long way to go.
There will be so many conditions, states, contingencies that will need to be tested, and retested etc regardless of whether or not the battery pans out at this point. However, getting over the battery hurdle this early is definitely a plus, now the real work can begin to get this car working and on the road by 2010.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
I NEED this car my propane bill to heat my house now cost 1,000 every 4 weeks i work 43 miles from home. Keep up the good work & don’t over price it or so help me i will buy a mini cooper!
May 14th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
I’ve read several posts about the heating/cooling issues.
As mentioned, a simple gas space heater solves the heating issue without affecting battery range.
To solve the cooling issue, just add an insulated ice-bath and heat exchanger. The ice-bath will provide plenty of cooling while running on batteries, and the water can be automatically re-frozen while plugged-in or running off the ICE. Simple and inexpensive.
As for the software now being a big issue, I don’t think the issue is so much writing the software. The issue will be tuning the 100 or so (that’s a guess) software parameters that will control when things start, when things stop, power delivery, etc. Tuning those parameters will require lots of simulations, experimentation, and driving that take a lot of time.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
40 miles with all the wrong stuff is good enough for me. I’d pay $35,000 today for a Malibu with the mule package installed. The software tweaks could easily be downloaded to the car as new releases are tested and finalized. Package up 50,000 of ‘em to sell this summer and let us trade up for the final Volt in 2-3 years when it’s finished. Don’t let “perfect” be the enemy of “good”!
May 14th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Lyle, has GM set a date to run a mule through the EPA mileage tests yet?
I would think that the EPA tests should be executed with a FULL battery charge and an EMPTY battery charge. Also, I’m wondering about the mileage if the Volt is NEVER plugged into an electrical outlet.
Of course, a software algorithm needs to exist for the ICE cycle for these tests. The GM testers may be just manually turning on the ICE in the mule…or based on this blog, the ICE may not be in play yet.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Gary Goggin #64,
The Tesla Roadster gets around 250 mpc (not 200), but the wait list is around 1 year and the cost is around $100,000. Let me know when you buy one! As I mentioned, there will be a few pure EVs at the high end for those who can afford them.
But speaking of Tesla, their 3rd generation car is supposed to be a $30,000 plug-in hybrid with around 40 MPC. Tesla’s stated business plan is to start with high-end sports cars and then work their way down to affordable cars for the masses. When you get down to $30,000, then a plug-in hybrid with around 40 MPC is the only thing that works.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
I would still like to have a chance of a test pilot of the car out here in the dead set Middle of the U.S.A.
Weather conditions here vary and would allow for good test data. Certainly at various times of the seasons. Winter time with the elements will be a real challenge.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
94 Ron
I agree…
But any detail news on the rollout plan to the dealers? When will dealer techs start training on the vehicle? Will the sales people know anything about the vehicle when it arrives on the lot?
I would think everyone would like to hear news on the “rollout” plan. Is it premature to ask such questions?
May 14th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
WOW, very impressive!
What can I do to help speed-up the delivery of this vehicle?
We need to propel this concept into reality well before 2011.
Please pool more resources into this project (you are missing the boat as we type)…
May 14th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
This is what GM needs to put them back on top, this is what this country needs to cut the dependency on petroleum. Get in line now. At $4.00 a gallon how can you afford not to buy one. Now, I just want the government to give me a tax credit to put up my own wind generator to make my own electricity for this plug in marvel.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
my son is in school right now learning about alt fuel vehicles(ie. electric hybrid) I’m sure the dealerships will have at least one tech that they send for special training if they can’t hire someone right out of an automotive school.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
All the work being done on this is a huge step in the right direction. There are going to be failures. That is a part of the learning process. Yes; that 40 miles figure is somewhat subjective. Traffic in Houston at 5pm on a typical 97 degree summer afternoon with pavement temperatures nearing 125 degrees will be challenging. I am curious about the physics though. Heat on a cold day without the 190 degree radiator water will be an even worse battery drain.
To produce a range of 75-150 horsepower for x number of miles will require an awful lot of juice from a typical 15 amp wall outlet even with 70% energy recovery from braking and 85% efficiency in the batteries. Only so much can flow in 6-8 hours. If you want to go even more miles and still charge overnight, I’m not sure how much further than 40 miles all-electric will ever be feasible. The battery pack also has to remain small enough to remain inside the frame rails in order to pass the crash tests without exploding.
I have no problem with a 30amp-230volt charger to get more miles as battery technology matures but that will sure turn a lot of people off initially until those charger outlets are as standard by the driveway as a dryer/stove plug or a stub-out for an air-conditioner . . . . .
May 14th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Ed M @ 69:
Doubtful. More like making do with our oil quota by utilizing every alternative energy source we can muster.
Also, Americans seem to follow their pocketbook and/or quality issues more so than patriotic allegiance when it comes to their own personal purchases. Most “American” companies outsource parts and labor and even assembly to third world countries, anyway.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
This is Great News!!! I want to buy !!!!
May 14th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I agree with #94 Ron as well. Roll it out, and upload the free upgrades with a drive-by at the dealership when it’s ready. We are all used to Microsoft’s imcomplete products and service packs. We all wouldn’t be on this site if we were happy with the gas prices and/or environmental impacts of regular cars.
GM, you want sales don’t you, get it out there before somebody else over seas steals the scene.
I drive a truck 70 miles each day and plan on upgrading my daily driver this coming fall. GM, you better hurry before I go shopping for something with a little better leg room than a Prius. Hook me up with one so I can test it in this summers heat and humidity in Houston
May 14th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Hi Robert (101),
The battery systems being engineered by GM and their suppliers do not explode. They use a different safer chemistry than laptop cells.
As mentioned in previous posts, during battery operation, heat could be supplied from a small fuel space-heater, and cooling could be provided by an ice-bath.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Why not make that onboard generator diesel powered and able to run on biofuel or veggie oil then we could be gasoline free! At least make it optional! I am ready to trade up!
A Prius owner
May 15th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Why is it that GM can make a full production electric vehicle in the early 90’s (close to 20yrs ago now) yet it’s 2008 and they can’t seem to get this thing into production? i originally heard that GM would have an electric car like this around 2007, no 2008, no 2009…wait, now it’s Nov 2010?!?!? that’s a 2011 model…hang on a minute!!! someone’s keeping us low to the ground here….originally i was excited about this…now i think it’s a joke to improve their ‘Humming’ image…”software challenge”…LMAO —-> (if battery=low then start motor otherwise don’t) my optimism has turned due to these stalling tactics of high hopes. What?!?! You’re telling me that google owns every talented software engineer this planet has to offer….i have one thing to say to GM ……… “ooooooooooooookaaaay…..right”
May 15th, 2008 at 12:19 am
“Why not double or triple the range?”
Because it is not needed most of the time by MOST drivers. Battery supply is possibly going to be a limiting factor. If that is the case GM can sell twice as many cars with a 40 mile range as with an 80 in that case. And did your read all the angry post when the possible price increase was announced? Cost of the battery is currently a huge part of the cars cost. Why compound that cost issue to give more range that will often go unused and push the price into the range of a toy only for the rich!
May 15th, 2008 at 12:57 am
the system they have to use has prolly 50 moving parts, a batt pak, controler for throttle control-charging-discharging-power distribution,and 1-4 motors ac-inducton 3-phase for generator braking aswell as standard car items window motors turn signals brake light etc. my question is when 8 people can desigh implement and move a vehical on to the market in less than 2 years how many people are working on this how much is gm spending do they have anyone from the old EV1 team on this team why dont they put the ev1 on the market i bet people would pay for a 50+mpg car at 22cents a “charge”
these are the same geniues that invented the modern electric vehical(EV) and then did there damnest to eraticate it they took the EV out of the one they let a musem hav i hate to be negitive but WTF get the lead out i could convert every car in my family to EV with lead-acid batts for they get the fist ev gimic(by the time gas get so expensive it will be to late for this car we’ll all be broke) if GM continous to give this kind of effort watch out were in store for a great dipression(sorry 2nd) with great power comes great resposiblity (corn) get off your @$$ GM
May 15th, 2008 at 12:59 am
I have great news. My homemade $2000 EV get’s 40 miles per charge! Yay, what an achievement.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:00 am
GO PAUL!!!!!!!!
May 15th, 2008 at 1:01 am
start a car CO.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:09 am
Fantastic , want one now please……hurry up
May 15th, 2008 at 1:10 am
This is good news indeed…. I suspect GM will be planning for worst case scenario, they almost have to… 40miles of mixed semi-freeway/city/hilly stop and go driving with a lead-foot driver honking it away from every stop light. I see 90 to 100km with steady driving at 100kmph on the open road… the kind of driving I do. Cut back to 90kmph (the speed limit around these here parts) and I suspect you will add 5lkm more to that range. If GM ‘guarantees’ 40 miles, I am willing to bet that many will be able to eke out 30 -50% more range with steady open road driving before the gen-set in the back kicks in.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:55 am
Hi Paul-R (105) I’m totally onboard with this but there are physics things to be overcome that are being glossed over. I’m going to guess one of the software challenges will be determining the ambient temperature of the vehicle when the driver enters. Most folks don’t realize that car AC compressors can cool a 1500 sq ft house. They just ramp back once the car is cooled off.
It is not just the air in the car that is 125 degrees in that Wal-Mart parking lot. So is the dash and the seats and the glass. You said ice bath. You could set a 50lb block of ice in a car in Texas in the summer and within an hour all you would have is wet carpet and still a very hot car. Users will expect the same ability to remove or add a tremendous amount of heat into or out of the passenger cabin within 5 minutes of closing the driver side door for the vehicle to be viable.
A 3-ton AC unit is about 3 horse power which a 150 HP gasoline engine barely notices but wouldn’t even work with a 15 amp wall outlet the battery charger will use. A regular car has a huge amount of energy it can throw at a really hot or cold vehicle. It wouldn’t be so bad if the gasoline engine had to start to initially heat up or cool off one of these vehicles. Once they are at temperature, the energy requirement is very low.
As for the batteries not exploding; hmmmm, you might wanna read up on that. A tremendous amount of energy will be stored in the battery pack. Probably 10,000 times that of a laptop computer. If you dropped 10,000 laptop computer batteries into a hydraulic press and all of those + and – terminals came in contact with one another creating short circuits, you would be surprised at the fireworks.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:56 am
I love the fact that GM ate crow and is coming back with a viable ev, even though it will use an ice to extend the range.
Why o Why are they striving for perfection–we need half as much car at half the price. But they still have to make money. I would buy a Volt anytime, and cheer GM on, but cut the deluxe complexity crap and give us a battery Volt NOW at a lower price (since you leave out the ice).
Best wishes, GM.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:02 am
people won’t buy a city car.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:04 am
regarding AC, there are glass windows with excellent ability to allow light in but not heat.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:05 am
By the way, if “Walmart” adds charging stations, your car WILL be climate controlled when you come back out… just like it will be in the morning at home. Beat that!
May 15th, 2008 at 2:09 am
i’d REALLY like to see 100 miles on all electric… and i’d be willing to pay more for it
May 15th, 2008 at 2:11 am
would you pay $10,000 more?
that’s about what it would cost…
May 15th, 2008 at 2:37 am
Great, great news. If it’s cold I’ll throw on an extra sweater. Just keep the windows from fogging up. Got this little thing in my pocket that takes a couple of AA batteries, so hold the boom box.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Aruby (118) – Yes, they make glass that lets little heat in but try smashing it with a baseball bat. It breaks in to jagged pieces that will lacerate you in a crash. Triple pane glass with argon filler is fine for a house where few windows get direct sun. Again, there are physics at play.
Go look at the outside of your house and compare the % of exterior that is glass vs solid surfaces then do the same for your car. Now compare how many cubic feet of air you have inside your house per sq ft of glass compared to your car. BINGO. You have way more glass and way less cubic feet of air in your vehicle which is why a car heats up so fast in the sun compared to a house.
Plus a house has a continuous climate control system more or less so heat is added and removed gradually so you never or seldom have a huge amount to deal with either way. Not so with a car. Open your trunk. No insulation on the lid and very little between the trunk and the back seat. Maybe a 1/4″ of foam between the ceiling and the roof in a car.
Bottom line is it is cheap to heat up or cool down a vehicle with a V8 engine and something similar will need to be possible with the Volt but I’m guessing it won’t ever be feasible to make that huge initial climate change with battery power and still go some 40 or 50 miles.
Oh, and Wal-Mart will be the very very very last store that ever installs charging stations for their customers. What will keep the dude next door at What-a-Burger from charging his car up during his lunch at Wal-Mart without ever going in ???? The logistics of that prevetion would be night marish to inforce . . . . . .
May 15th, 2008 at 3:34 am
Robert (123)
First of all, it’s nice that we’re at the point where these are the big problems…
Regarding the glass, sorry for being so vague. I wasn’t referring to double pane glass which insulates against conduction.
I was talking about technologies like this
http://www.southwall.com/southwall/Home/Products/Automotive/XIRLaminatedGlass.html
that are already in use in some cars from Renault and Mercedes. They reflect much of the sun’s heat, stopping “radiation” heat.
My general point is that once you’re running an energy efficient car, you start to look at ways to use energy efficiently. Using an ICE to heat and cool works very well, but it’s like using a sledgehammer on a fly. Also, I doubt EPA MPG tests are run in the baking sun, which would demonstrate the substantial loss of efficiency AC’s can cause in a mobile greenhouse.
Example: in the above link, a test car with reflective film was found to be cooler- plus a 3% fuel economy improvement.
An extra MPG might not sound huge, but it certainly will make a difference when running an air conditioner off of batteries.
Regarding WalMart charging, how about a Charging meter? (like a parking meter). A couple quarters should go a long way!
May 15th, 2008 at 3:48 am
FYI,
see http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid192.php for a great look at many different areas that can be improved.
With a regular car, you don’t see exactly how many MPG you’re getting, but with the Volt, you’ll know exactly when you’re battery is low. Your actual mileage is the key, not the EPA’s mileage.
BTW, Another development that may also help is “self-inflating” tires with a built in peristaltic pump http://www.selfinflatingtire.com/
(or something similar). This would also save about 3% of energy, but wouldn’t help Big Auto on the EPA test.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:54 am
The software issue sounds a bit of a crok to me. What inputs do they need to look at? Throttle posn, speed. accel/decel, power demand, wheel distribution (related to turning radius), battery state of charge. It’s not rocket science. To that end, NASA put a man on the moon with a computer with the processing capacity of a digital. They should use the KISS principal and keep it simple stupid. I’m sure battery technology really IS the problem of all EVs if they are only prepared to admit it.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:57 am
I would bet a modern car is more complicated than a 60’s moon rocket…
May 15th, 2008 at 4:09 am
Aruby (124) – OK I read your link and it says at best this vastly more expensive glass reduces heat influx by 33%. Since about 1/3 of the heat that enters a car in a parking lot comes from the glass, 1/3 of 1/3 means that after say 10 hours in the sun, a normally 140 degree car will only be about 130 degrees.
I’ll admit to being the only frigging stupid nubie many of you have made me out to be but not knowing what in the world you are talking about when you say you can heat and cool a car with something you people call an ICE.
I assure you if it worked 5% as much as many of you think it will it would already be in service. Why is it when I enter 15 variations of ICE – heating – cooling – vehicle in Google all I get back is stupid stuff and nothing even remotely in reference to a practical automobile heating and cooling technology ????
May 15th, 2008 at 4:23 am
when can i buy this car?
May 15th, 2008 at 4:31 am
Excuse the abbreviation. I.C.E. = Internal Combustion engine.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:38 am
Great news GM. I wonder what GM’s stock price would be if all their dealerships had E-flex vehicles on the lot.
#124 aruby… Re: Charging meter — I like that idea.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:40 am
I still think they need to ditch the 9V battery they are trying to use and put some real juice in it. Maybe take the engine all the way out.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:01 am
Thanks Aruby. Use “Ice” as in the cold stuff in a sack to cool a car in Houston ???? BA-HaHaHaHaHaHa. My bad. I’m up to speed now.
Yes. Charging meters perhaps on their own row someplace in the Wal-Mart parking lot. Anything that would take cash would get stolen. Perhaps a pre-paid tap-type card like a Kroger key chain deal-ey plus a keypad where you can key in the maximum amount.
To my knowledge we aren’t importing actual electricity in from the middle east yet so all of these are good ideas . . . . . .
May 15th, 2008 at 5:04 am
mmcc: thanks
GM: keep the patent 
Hey Robert, I looked into more of those numbers, and this is what I understand so far.
The specific product I linked to reflects 94% of infrared radiation. It is 35% more efficient than “tinted glass”. Regular glass lets in much more infrared, about 80% of total infrared shining at it. (Infrared is what mostly makes us hot from the sun).
Also, the main reason cars get so hot is because of the windows. Whatever the percentage of area windows are, I think we can agree that the reason the car gets hot is mostly the “greenhouse effect”. Better windows would help a lot.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:13 am
Bernie Lewis – #106
The volt runs on electricity, gasoline, or E85. E85 is mostly ethanol, which can be made from any sort of biomass. In the U.S., emissions standards for Diesel engines make them more costly, heavier, and less efficient than European Diesel engines.
Robert – #115
The Volt doesn’t use the same battery chemistry as laptop batteries, so they wont explode. A good example of this is the recent KillaCycle accident. I believe the battery pack was ruptured, shorting the + and – plates, and nothing happened. By contrast, Tesla is using laptop batteries. They say their pack cooling system will deal with thermal events, but I wonder what a real crash would do. As for AC, the Volt design guys have already told us 40 MPC is with the AC off, and it looks like there will be a 20-30% hit on MPC with the AC on.
nate – #120
100 mpc would cost around $10,000 extra, and you would lose the back seats and/or the trunk. The good news is that your 0-60 times would be much faster. More batteries not only makes more range, but more horsepower as well. Do you still want 100 mpc?
Ian P – #126
There is a ton of software for just the AC induction motor. There are also a lot of battery management issues. Don’t underestimate software.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:28 am
Great Job GM!
I wish they were selling a Malibu Volt. I’m 6′5″ and the Volt’s going to be too small in the first version.
For now I’m just glad a company is building a car the right way.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:00 am
Everybody knows that GM can build the VOLT. They built the EV1. The question is: Will they actually do it? Is this just a tease? After all, if you ever saw the movie “Who killed the electric car”, you will know that there are many factors at work against building such a car.
My prediction is that some other car company (Not beholding or intimidated by OIL) will build that functional and reasonably price electric car long before GM will.
Look at what Renault is about to do in Israel?
The shame of it is that GM, if they were truly sincere, could do a lot for America, Americans and to the glut of BIG OIL and the politicians that keep helping them. Wake up America… WE own the OIL in Iraq (and what a price we are paying there), and OIL companies still stick it to us.
Zeme
May 15th, 2008 at 6:18 am
I’ll believe it when I see it…on a lot.
If GM was capable or interested in a vehicle like this they would have worked directly off of the EV1 project long ago. The minute the lobbyists overturned the CA requirements for EV production, they pulled out.
Why in the world would they build themselves out of jobs with cars that last long and work cleanly? Why would they build themselves out of big oil lobby money?
They want you to drive a car that will break and need things. Thats business. Same as your appliances.
Cable companies are glad to give you a FREE box, the cell phone companies are happy to give you FREE phones… because they know you’ll need services and want for more and more. They can keep you paying a bill for years to come.
This thing will have issues built right in to keep you on a string.
Take all of this fake press release non sense with a grain of salt.
Insist that you see it before you fall for it. The only thing that matters is mass production, not a fancy skin or a test mule or a battery. In 1897 the first commercial application (of EV) was established as a fleet of New York City taxis. Over 100 years ago people. We can send satellites to space and see 100 million light years away.
For more information on the history and past capabilities of Elec. vehicles please cut an paste the link below to the US department of energy.
Question Everything! We are not sheep or cash cows.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/light_duty/fsev/fsev_history.html
May 15th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Congrats GM and the entire Volt project staff.
Now…don’t put a Cavalier body on this chassis. Stick to the car show design package and you have a winner.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:43 am
oh please! The critics here are completely clueless. They have no idea that it all has to do with technology and making money. The EV1 didn’t have a chance because the technology cost too much back then, no matter what you thought. In case you didn’t know … technology is what transformed the world into what it is, and will continue to do so.
Frankly I can’t believe GM was so jaded against Advanced Li-Ion batteries in the the first place. It’s like they never read any of the technical journals.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:47 am
The actual software coding work is probably not as big an issue as determining the algorithms which that software will use. Algorithms are the math used to set things like when the ICE comes on and what the most efficient and battery-friendly discharge depth should be. Finding the optimal values for this math will take a good deal of research and old fashioned testing.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Would it be possible to install a solar film in the roof to assist in charging the battery. Solar film has come a long way recently. I don’t know if this would be practical, just an idea. Tha car may be parked for 7 to 8 hours in the sun and could be recharging. Any thoughts in this regard?
May 15th, 2008 at 7:00 am
GM would say- maybe as an add-on. We won’t get involved…
May 15th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Now it’s time to start the Manhattan type project to build many nuclear power plants on the “design once, copy exactly” principal to power these babies with “carbon free” power!
May 15th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Hey GM…a willing Minneapolis driver with years of R&D test experience is waiting! Get off yer butts, build that thing and get your cold-weather data here!
May 15th, 2008 at 7:10 am
#142 Mikel
The soon to be released Aptera has a solar panel in the roof that runs the A/C unit while parked to keep the interior of the auto cool.
For us in the deep south, this is a great feature. We have already reached 100 + last week. I’m sure GM is looking at all options. We’ll just have to patient and wait for the final VOLT product.
Tom
May 15th, 2008 at 7:13 am
Sure the automakers might lose money from replacement parts (they build in foreign countries) on EVs but they have huge potential to make money on software updates, part upgrades, even newer better batteries (make em last only 8 -10 years then well have to buy newer ones) and many of these things are best built right here in the U.S.A. Instead of forming alliances with Oil Companies they need to focus on Software companies, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, Apple etc. Soon we might be able to have tons of technology in our cars. There will be shift in the way money is made but it can still be made.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:14 am
Good to get 40 miles from the battery. The Chevy Sprint consistently got 50 miles per gallon. I drove one for 10 years without any repairs, (until the carburetor died). I loved that little car but couldn’t get another one because the Sprint was discontinued. If the Volt is to get 55 mpg, that is not very spectacular in light of the mileage gotten by a car 20 years ago.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:14 am
#138 Arc
And people people think I’m pessimistic!
/you have so much to teach sensai!
May 15th, 2008 at 7:18 am
I think the difference is “NO” sales of gas guzzlers for GM and Ford etc. and most models on the road to-day.The New tech to replace the old tech is now, as Prius at 1,000,000 sold proves.
Oil is not going to get cheaper and the only way to deal with this is don’t buy it.
GM,Ford and the rest start again with a level playing field and see if the Asian market can keep up. All things being equal I would buy North American everytime. Technology is where North America shines and the everybody else either buys or steals it….this time around lets keep it.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:21 am
If there is a lot of software to control the car, then there will be opportunities for bugs to exist. GM may need to have an easy way for drivers to download authorized patches directly to the car. Similar to what Microsoft does to our Windows machines about once every other week or so.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:30 am
I would assume that the heater would not be resistance based. They will almost certainly use a heat pump for both heating and cooling.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:32 am
I drive a 03 jetta TDI. It gets about 50mpg. Also had a 1985 Rabbit diesel that got about 47mpg.
THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
The Jetta is a real car, solid built with real safety features and roomy, with reasonably clean emissions for a non-filtered diesel. The Rabbit was a smoking tin can, noisy, chintzy, dirty, slow…in comparison, it was a toy.
55mpg with today’s construction and standard level of refinement is a definite improvement over the craptastic ****boxes of the 70’s and 80’s, even if they got the same MPG.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:51 am
IS THAT THE NEW 2009 YUGO?
Although I am a huge Volt fan, I was very dissappointed to see the unquestionably UGLY body in the attached story. Could GM have possibly pick an uglier color? Within my circle of Volt followers, I was not shocked to see how many stated “if that is what is is going to look like, I won’t buy it”! It’s kind of like “Bait and Switch.” The picture looks like nothing more than an updated Cavalier…..and we all know how attractive they were. Tell me they won’t look like the Maroon Bomb above, otherwise I may have to look at the Honda FCV or the BMW Hybrid. Styling is important, especially when you are trying to sell the gas-loving American public on a green electric vehicle. I want the Silver Volt with the Classy futuristic styling!
May 15th, 2008 at 7:57 am
I expect the Volt to be a reliable work horse of a vehicle. A 40 mile charge is a huge achievement! Why stop there? Maybe the battery can be improved to get more more MPC (miles per charge) by the time we are able to purchase this thing. The body style definitely needs improvement. I do however, look forward to purchasing this vehicle, if it delivers at the very least 40 MPC. We do most our driving within 40 miles of our home, so we will get a lot of driving time just on a charge. Once we are finally off the grid, the driving will be even more affordable. Kudos to you for not only helping us clean up the environment but helping our country be that much closer to being less dependant on imported oil. Won’t it be great when our country finally moves to clean energy and energy independence.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:26 am
I have a business opportunity — parking meter style charging stations. Wal-Mart could indeed have charging stations in the parking lot if they were set up like parking meters — pump in your quarters (or slide your visa card) for them to operate and you pay by the charge you take. Heck, I can see having these things at office buildings for companies — particularly any that are environmentally conscious; reserved spots for electric cars. Put an awning over the spots to keep them cooler in the summer…
May 15th, 2008 at 8:35 am
This car is truly the giant killer! The one that will work and break the chain that has America choked by the OPEC.
I cannot wait to have one, not only from the savins, but the design is awesome. I have a restored 75 vette and the Volt looks just as good.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Good progress…looking forward to seeing more.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Software upgrade will likely all be done through an OnStar-like service without the car owner even knowing it happened.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:52 am
I hope the series alternator will be flex fuel. Also a switch to start the alternator when leaving on a longer than 40 mile trip. This car will do more for our energy independance than the goverment has ever done. Try to beat the Nov. 2010 date. Thanks.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Georg K #31
Personally I do not believe software issue is serious. It’s 2,5 year from now for adjustments. Moreover you can update your software whenever a problem occurs. There are lot of small ventures which can adjust motor capacity, ignition angle or other things any time you want and how you want and even make your family car roar as Formula 1. It sounds to me as well known 2000 Y “problem”.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Nice to see encouraging progress. Keep plugging away GM!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Power… energy? Still, where will it all come from? Fill’er up or plug it in and charge it up. Hybrid green? All electric? Which is the mean machine.
The volt is truly a beautiful way of approaching the necessities of modern human survival… but, until we find a truly beautiful renewable resource… we’re all still in the same boat.
Give it a an absorbent solar shell… do something. Put it in the paint… anything! Some how cover it with a skin that can receive what is all around us… power from the sun!
Don’t tell me we don’t have the technology. That’s just what the “Giants” want us to believe.
I love the car!!! I’m going to buy one… maybe two. Can’t wait to charge it from my solar powered home.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:00 am
What’s wrong with the ICE doing the bulk of the interior heating and/or AC? It seems like the most efficient method, even though it may not feel right to those who never want the ICE to fire up.
Also, can’t battery heat contribute in the winter?
May 15th, 2008 at 9:15 am
#141 Scott
I agree wholeheartedly.
The “software” or actual computer programming is the minor portion of the work ahead.
The real work is testing the Volt in cold snowy climates, hot arrid climates, to deeper discharge cycles, determining how to operate the ICE (full load, part load, continuous operation versus on/off duty cycles, etc.), and so on.
At the VoltNation meeting, I learned that the Volt will have one common cooling system for the ICE, battery pack, and the power electronics. On a frigid day, the ICE may start as soon as you enter the car to get the battery pack up to temperature.
From the source article, it appears to me that GM is contemplating letting the ICE completely recharge the battery pack on long trips (versus maintaining a minimum SOC). There is a great deal of work left for GM to do.
However, this news represents a major milestone!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Build it and find tune the software later if need be. Bill gates can show you how service pack 1, service pack 2 etc
May 15th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Following up on #164 above, maybe using the ICE for climate control actually solves the stale gas issue in most places on the planet.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:33 am
154. Max
The picture you see is of a MULE. This is a test platform utilizing a couple year old Malibu so the Volt components can be tested on the road. I’m sure GM could care less what the color of the MULE is! That car body style is no longer even in production. The actual Volt to be built in 2010 has not been shown to the public yet. Trust me it will look much different (and better) than the MULE picture.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Good Progress = Good News…
As someone who has been keeping an eye on Tesla Motors and what they are doing (while not being able to afford their flagship in production now) I’m extremely hopeful that GM can pull this together and get something viable to those of us who care enough to take the risks of dealing w/ the inevitable bugs and bumps along the way.
Its always scary to buy a vehicle in its first model year especially one being powered by a new concept but I will be one willing to take that plunge!
I drive a BMW right now (an ‘01) and it has been my favorite ‘driving machine’ since the day I got it, I understand where the extra $$$ goes…. I’m a car guy and cant bring myself to go from Bimmer to Prius or HybridCivic even though I desperately want to get into some sort of EV… at this time I can see myself having little trouble dropping the Bimmer for the Volt …..I’m watching and waiting !!!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Now, let’s hope the futuristic cool design holds and we don’t get some old standard looking car that we have seen time and time again. It’s time that an American car company leaps beyond the Japanese and Europeans and really makes a mark. We want a quality made car that looks great, rides great and that is reliable. I want to buy Amerian again, so please give me a reason.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:44 am
I hope that the production model runs 60 miles on a change. I wonder what will be the effect on the electric grid when lots of people start plugging their cars in. Other than that: Go Volt!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Yes good news!
About the question of when to engage the gas (etc.) engine to recharge the battery, I think there should be 3 selectable modes.
1) Regular, the charging starts just when your horse-power is about to decrease (my educated guess, around 20-25% Battery charge level).
2) Long trip, which would turn on and “top-off” the batteries when they are still in the 70-80% charge level. Thus increasing their life and maximum efficiency).
3) Manual, for those of us who know they are going to make it home after the batteries reach the “Regular” charge level, but before complete battery depletion. This would avoid having the “gas” engine turn on when you know you will plug-in your car 5 minutes later…
May 15th, 2008 at 9:51 am
I think the Zeo has better specs….
0-60 mph: 5.7 seconds
Standing ¼ mile: 11.0 seconds
Top speed: 130 mph
All-electric range: 250 miles
Equivalent mpg: 120 mpg
Source: http://www.dodgezeo.net/
wonder what the price difference will be though?
May 15th, 2008 at 9:52 am
GM,
This is amazing! You could revolutionize, Detroit and America. This is a huge win for American engineering.
Go Chevy and Go Lutz Team!
Best,
Rick
May 15th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Honestly, if Phoenix SUTs and SUVs are getting over 100 mile ranges, Volt should be getting more than 40 at this point. And we all know what Tesla is getting. If the goal for GM is to reach low mile ranges, then we should expect a very low retail price. Or, Volt will not be very successful.
I really don’t see this as a “milestone”, but more like a stepping stone.
Keep up the good work!!!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Is the ZEO still a reality? I read somewhere that Dodge wasn’t going to produce the ZEO, but use some of the tech in future vehicles.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Hey GM,
As a current owner of two EVs (a Sparrow and a conversion), I am very excited about your progress on the Volt; I swear that if you pull this off, I will buy TWO just to make sure GM’s Volt division makes money… And I won’t be alone!
Keep up the great work, and
Take Care,
Drew
May 15th, 2008 at 10:09 am
I hope GM can make it through 2010 on lease renewals and fleet sales because a large amount of folks are “watching and WAITING”.
I vote for Volt in 2009.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Voltmania,
That is truely what I am hoping. I think the correct internal design with an attractive external design will go a long way to selling the public on the concept of changing from fuel to electric. As for the picture, my point was, that not everyone is a pseudo car designer and up to speed on the lingo (I.E. MULE). What the average person sees is a beautiful car at the top of the page and drastically different and extremely ugly car at the bottom ogf the page (with a caption saying “Chevy Volt goes 40.”) This is kind of a Public Relations faux pas. There sould have been a caption clarifying that the vehicle pictured was in fact a 2006 Malibu that had been outfitted with Volt technology. With out that, what you are left with is a bunch of misinformed people spreading rumors that the Volt does not look like the advertised prototype, thus damaging the program momentum. Personally, I want the whole world to come to their collective senses and get off the fuel, and thank God a manufacturer has finally stepped up to the plate to make it happen. I got my downpayment ready and waiting!
May 15th, 2008 at 10:12 am
One more question. The Tesla motor gets 200 – 250 miles on one charge. Tesla has sold all their first 100 cars at a 100,000.00 a pop, so they have made their money back. Why doesn’t GM simply buy the Tesla technology and put it in the Volt? Has anyone tried this approach? When are American companies going to start working together as a team to solve the problems we face today vs. always working against each other, trying to buy up each other and put the other guy out of business. Help each other guys and help Americans.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:15 am
I drivew 52 miles one-way every day. All freeway. I am looking forward to buying a volt and saving $400.00 a month in fuel prices!
May 15th, 2008 at 10:20 am
40 miles on a charge seems to be set in stone. But if GM used Dynamic braking to recharge the battery during braking of the car, it would greatly extend the distance the Volt could travel on the battery.
Has GM concidered this????
May 15th, 2008 at 10:22 am
I drive about 65 miles round-trip per day. If the car can’t make a complete day’s travel without having to be plugged in, it’s useless to me. 40 miles is darn good, but if you can get the range up to 60-75 miles on a charge and keep the price reasonable I will absolutely give the Volt consideration. I need a car that can get me to work and back home again to be useful.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Dear GM,
PLEASE READ…
As a Prius owner, I will tell you that one thing that frustrates me is that there is no engine kill switch button. Let me explain, there are many times that I am cruising and am on all electric, but then I’ll have just a mere 2-4 second incline, this will kick my Prius’ engine on. I don’t want it too, as by the time I hit the hump I’m almost over it. Then the motor’s running for a couple of seconds.
There are times we humans have more info than the computer (ie: I am almost home, just a 1/2 mile to go before I can re-charge. Let me be able to tell the generator NOT to kick in.
***
Another thing that would be really helpful is with cruise control, allow us to put a primary speed and a secondary speed. (ie: a = my primary desired speed, let’s say 65mph, but b = the speed I’ll accept during heavy inclines, etc. Let’s say 55mph.
As I always hate when I hit a hill and my cruise control ramps up the engine really high so it can maintain the speed when if it just casually allowed the vehicle to lose a few mph gradually over the incline I could make it to the top and only decline from 65mph to about 60mph or maybe 58mph. But maintain high efficiency.
Hope these ideas get implemented because such behavior allowances can make the Volt blow the Prius away.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Good news indeed. While I prefer greater range over smaller battery, I trust Chevy to live up to their reputation and make the Volt the best, longest lasting, most dependable vehicle possible. Keep up the good work.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:34 am
#159 Steve says, “Software upgrade will likely all be done through an OnStar-like service without the car owner even knowing it happened. ”
I hope not. Does that mean the people that don’t want to pay for OnStar won’t get a software update? I think OnStar or anything else that requires payment should not be part of a warranty service. Now make OnStar free so everyone can have it, then your idea is a good one.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:35 am
I’m a Lexus or Lincoln/Ford man by habbit but my next car will be a plug-in hybrid irrespective of maker. I saw the Volt at the San Diego auto show. If you are first on the market, you have a guaranteed sale.
Ed, San Diego
May 15th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Mike #183, that is why there is a small gas engine on Board: so you go more than 40 miles without charging up. It is not useless for you. Nearly 2/3 of your daily commute will be gas free. The remainder will be at 50+ mpg, better than the current ratings for the Prius. The Volt will still be your best choice for fuel efficiency.
40 electric miles * 365 days per year = 14,600 gas free miles per year. The rest you may have to buy gas for, if you can’t plug in at work.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:45 am
I am going to buy a Volt IF it is not too expensive. I have heard that the expected price has jumped a lot. PLEASE keep it about 25K, and absolutely DON’T let it be above 30K.
Also, PLEASE consider the Volt technology for the HHR.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:46 am
If this car is being launched in roughly two years why isn’t the hype being blown out of proportion. GM- please start selling the sizzle!
May 15th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Is this lithium battery the battery that will be used in the car as sold? Is this battery capable of being manufactured cheaply? Is this battery safe and free of the overheating problems that have plagued lithium batteries? We don’t know much about this battery other than its publicity.
Before making statements about US cars reliability, read the only source that judges reliability based on car owner’s reports: Consumer Reports.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Uggghhhh. It looks like we are regressing here in what we know!
or
Yippeeee more new people are discovering this site and the volt like never before
*********************************
People people people. The concept vehicle was initiated before the concept vehicle was even unveiled. At the time gas was much cheaper. At the time all the ev’s were pieces of crap or the few that weren’t were too expensive for 98% of us. The whole goal and thrust of the Volt was to hit a freaking home run and convince us that an electric vehicle IS the way of the future…. can meet all our needs and most importantly NOT CAUSE us to have to make concessions with limited range, poor power, super high cost, freaky driving quirks, lack of proper heating or cooling etc etc.
The price of gas has changed part of the equation and GM couldn’t have known this was coming. The high gas prices has changed the landscape and the CONVINCING us part of the ev problem has basically been already done.
The volt may not have the exact range you need all electric… It can’t have the right range for everyone. Quit calling for 100 mile range. YES GM could easily make the volt so that it gets 100 miles per charge. In the future they will. Yes they could use this or that material in the glass or in the body or the frame. And in the future somebody will. The volt can not and will not be everything to everyone. That is just not possible.
Solar panels will probably only add about a mile of range to the battery charge while you are at work on a sunny day.
I too would like half the car at half the price. Give me the volt with a 20 mile all electric range and without all the bells and whistles or an BEV for less money and no ice. But… that isn’t going to happen with the volt. Yes GM could do that more easily than what they are doing and GM knows those are in demand. Hopefully GM will offer more and more options in the future but understand how GM got to the design specs of the Volt and don’t demand that the volt be all things to all people.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Maybe its time to re-vamp the FAQs and give them a very prominent position.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Is is just me, or are there a lot of new names here today? If so, great! It’s the best thing that could happen.
#178 Nelson:
No s**t!
On the other hand, if not for the knowledge of the upcoming Volt, we would have probably bought a Prius or some such by now. And we keep our cars for 10+ years. So maybe this “process” is actually saving a few sales for GM. Or at least I hope so. Although, patience does wear thin.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:04 am
I’m still standing by with my deposit & GMcard points and I’ll place ad decals on the body. Call a loyal customer GM and let’s make a deal.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:06 am
1.I think first Volt has to be just reliable enough without any so called “added values”. Just like it was done with Toyota Prius and shall be on the market as soon as possible due to the market maturity and expected fierce competition.
2.Later models can contain:
i) touch screen (like navigator screen) for regulating the generator switch and remaining power charge level, heating/cooling switching on when you are connected to the grid timing (7 a.m.) and climate control options etc.
ii) flex fuel pack/diesel generator pack/turbine generator pack options. The motor torque will be not relevant at all like ICE case. It will remain capacitor/battery/ electric motor feature. Power generator pack unit will become standard (more standard than battery pack) and will be outsourced to power equipment manufacturers (i.e. Caterpillar, Siemens or GE) which have been making such stuff for hundred years or will be replaced by advanced batteries/suppercapacitors.
iii) different battery pack options (on average it is enough to have 40 miles for daily commute, but some would like to have large and pay extra)
iv) photovoltaic film option on the roof to generate additional up to 1000 kWh per annum deepening on the roof size. For example this would be useful during summer (or even winter) because of cooling or heating can be switched on when batteries are fully charged and you are not plugged on the grid. This option would help keeping vehicle in due thermal condition for the most of time. Would be some challenge for designers – but that it is most efficient photovoltaic energy utilization way and will be very attractive for greens!!!
v) in-wheel drive option (for advanced consumers) (4X4) which later become mainstream due to better driving conditions, weight reduction and transmission energy losses elimination.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:08 am
#184 Jason The Saj:
Amen on the cruise control.
Even my 3500 trailer tower does that. You are rolling along in 5th gear, start up a grade, and all of a sudden it will kick down into 3rd and bounce the tach needle off the redline. I HATE it. Of course now I have learned to just turn the damn thing off when I see the hint of a hill, but still it’s really dumb.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Technology will always be tweaked and improve as time goes on. I own a 2006 Malibu Maxx. I want to see a similar body with an electric motor at a good price that can handle my daily 22 mile stop and go work trip. Otherwise, I’ll run this Maxx which I love until it falls apart no matter what the price of gas is.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:15 am
omegaman – nice tie up to this exploding thread. It needed that.
Did I see someone say they thought the Mule photo was the production Volt? Yikes!
I do forget at times there are multiple levels of Volt knowledge on this site. But I agree, it seems to be going backward in a hurry.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Huzzah on the major upturn in membership with the announcement of this milestone. However, the FAQ page should be required reading before allowing newbies to post comments.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:20 am
I continue to be impressed by GM’s attitude and engineering. Just took delivery of an ‘08 Corvette which got a steady 30-31 mpg coming back from the Corvette Museum and factory in Bowling Green, KY to our home in Colorado.
I guess that until the Volt is actually built, my wife and I will have to park her Subaru Forester when we hit the road, and drive our economy car…Chevy’s 435 hp Corvette!
Keep it up GM…but don’t over promise. Just deliver.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Hobbyists have been getting better results than this for years in converting gasoline powered cars to electric. This announcement may represent a milestone for managed-like-stoneage Detroit, but measured by world standards and world competition, it is a huge YAWN.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:26 am
40miles.. Is that much?
Well I don’t think this is rocket-seine, is it?
The news is that manufacturers are actually thinking they can make money building a car like this, and that is great news.
Compared to the Volvo C30 plug-in hybrid, the Volt is, just like the Opel plug in, a low-tech car, with traditional transition dish-breaks etc. No wheel-hubs-motors.
But I will still consider a Volt, two main reasons; It’s probably closer to actual production and the looks! The concept car sure looks like something I want! I hope the red car above, in the picture is just an experimental platform.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:31 am
All along, the GM folks were saying they would parallel engineer the car with the specs of the battery pack in mind. Now to find out that the battery pack is good, but very little of the “other” engineering being completed (or started?), is surprising. It’s almost like they were actually dragging their feet waiting for the battery.
I was very enthused with the concept, but when the target price moved up $5000, and the hangups at the time were with “Windshield Wiper Demands” on the system, that showed improper management of the parallel engineering concept. Will this now be a “2011″ model with a Nov 2010 release deadline? 2011 seems a long way away!
I kinda wonder if this early release pack is similar to the A123-HyMotion Plug-In add-on Li pack for the Prius that is being marketed for October release (a full 2 years before the Volt).
May 15th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Great news!
Now GM needs to drop its fight against the higher mileage rules proposed by California (and many other states) so that GM can kick butt in the marketplace when other manufacturers can’t keep up.
Also, this resistance to a much needed improvement over the milder federal standards is generating enormous ill will in the environmental community.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Titillating and tantalizing info.
Wow, I sure hope that GM uses this good news as impetus for them to work feverishly down the homestretch….
May 15th, 2008 at 11:41 am
>If GM was capable or interested in a vehicle like this they would have worked directly off of the EV1 project long ago.
Why does everyone assume that just because the EV1 worked, that it was a viable commercial vehicle.
1) It was ugly. When was the last time you bought a car that you didnt like the shape of.
2) Gas was a bit over a dollar a gallon at the time and carbon wasnt a huge deal. Why would anyone want to plug something in when it is basically a wash. Times have changed obviously.
3) It cost $80,0000 which is why they leased it. Nuff said.
4) It used lead acid batteries that would not last 5 years, much less 10. Note: Tesla’s batteries have to be completely replaced after 5 years as well.
5) It was a 2 seater. Generally speaking, not a mass market car.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Thanks for the update! Can’t wait for my own.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Praise be to Allah!
The second phase of the jihad has been accomplished.
Death to oil,
the Iranian economy, the Saudi economy, the Venezuelan economy, and the Russian economy.
http://www.oiljihad.org
May 15th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Omegaman:
Yeah…a lot of newbies here today, but that’s a good thing and we welcome them. If you are new to this site, recommend to read over the FAQ and some of the recent previous articles posted here to get you up to speed. Learn as much as you can and tell your friends too!
May 15th, 2008 at 11:53 am
UHHG My brain hurts after reading some of these post, and to yawn (202) above, can a hobbyist make a car from scratch with lithium-ion AC drive that can last no less than 10 years 150k miles so suzy Q grand maw can drive it to the drugstore with out and special procedure’s and all for around 30k?
also I am sure there will have regen braking just like every other GM ev and hybrid ever made and the cruise control will be economy friendly like the tahoe hybrid and the AC will be electric like to tahoe or heat pump like the ev1, s-10 E
May 15th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
It’s not that big news until he shows the mule off to the press.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Anti-Oil Jihadi. Welcome back. Haven’t “seen” you in a very long time.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Dear BigCityCat,
Stop attacking the unions or their elected representatives. If it weren’t for unions or their sacrifice, you wouldn’t have had a middle class lifestyle. Do you really think that management gave up money and benefits to average workers out of the goodness of their hearts. Wake up! As unions continue to decline, you can expect management to expect more concessions from workers. This will continue to erode the already fragile middle class of this country. Start directing your anger and actions toward the real antagonist in this story, the upper class.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
211 Schmeltz
Great comment !! If all the newbies will follow your instructions and get up to speed with this site we won’t be rehashing old news. It is great to see all the new interest in this site.
One that has been absent the last few days is Nasaman. Are you OK ??
Tom
May 15th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Max,
Are you TRYING to get this site shut down? Do you WANT GM management to issue a moratorium on information about the Volt until it’s done?
Your comments give the GM marketing department all the ammunition they need to do just that.
This website is not designed to sell you a car, it’s designed to show people interested in the concept, a view of the development from nearly the start, to the finish.
This website is a near real-time sonogram. Do you look at a sonogram and say “eeewww, those parents are going to want to leave the baby at the hospital!”
I’m going to set aside more nefarious motiviation for your comments, with the advice that you not give GM marketing people a reason to discontinue GM’s relationship to the operator of this site.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
I apologize if this has already been commented upon but is everyone really surprised that everything is going as planned so far with the Volt?? GM has had this technology for years now and then they destroyed it… now miraculously there bringing it back!!! WOW…how naive can we be. I applaud GM for being the first to create a fully functional electric car back in the day, but HATE the fact that they destroyed them all under preasure from various source’s unnamed. If you do not know what I am talking about, please go and purchase or rent “Who killed the electric car”.
I promise you it’s not a waite of your time!
Other then that complaint, I really can’t wait to maybe get my hands on a VOLT, but it baffles me that they can only get 40 miles out of the batteries as we all know that battery technology is way better now, then in the 90’s.
Thanks for allowing me my 2 cents!
May 15th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Great Going GM… I put off buying a toyota hybird, I,m wating for the Volt…Mabe some day you will make a small Pickup Like the S-10
extended or Double Cab some Day.. Had to buy a Nessan in 2007..
May 15th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Where is the photo of the pickup version?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
As Omegaman has said, I too welcome the newcomers. Not too long ago, I was one who had only heard rumors of the Volt’s creation. While some people here do not always agree with me, most do not spout ignorant rhetoric, but counter my posts with genuine fact and knowledge. So to the new guys, not all disagreements are insults. Someone may know just a little more than you do, just as so many here know more about something than I do and vice-versa. It’s the fact that I try to respect the other posters regardless of if I agree with them or not. It’s all about maturity and a common interest.
As far as the cruise control issue goes, I’m a little stumped on a few comments about that one. Historically, the computer senses resistance to constant speed (i.e. incline) and tells the powertrain to adjust variables to keep that velocity. But I figure that with the Volt, that would be a moot point since there is no dynamic connection between the drive motor and the ICE. Also, with the consistent torque production of an electric motor, the Volt should pretty much be able to handle inclines without losing speed. After all, horsepower sells cars but torque moves them (something the electric motors have in abundance. Unlike the ICE, there is no need to spool up RPMs to get to the torque peak.
As far as the pic above, obviously it is a disguised mule. Be kind of a b!#(h if the car is still in the testing phase and they let the design out of the bag 2 years too early (thereby giving others a chance to copy or beat its looks). Now you wouldn’t want thatnow, would you?
Some people seem to be complaining about the 40 mile range. Here comes the part where not everyone will like what I’m about to say: If you want 100 miles per charge, forget the Volt and buy an Aptera. That simple. Obviously there is a lot of stuff to developing a car, especially one that while the varoius technologies that make it up have existed, it is the way in which they are used COLLECTIVELY that is the innovation. Your VW TDI gets 50 miles per gallon and you can’t see where the Volt is any better? Fine. Don’t buy it. Keep driving your VW. As long as you’re happy. It is marvelous because GM (of all people) are trying to do it. That must count for something.
As a society, ecologically we still have a long way to go, and new technologies don’t just pop up overnight. Be patient. Give GM time to make good on their promises. If you cant wait? Buy a Jetta TDI or a Prius and be happy. I’ll wait…
May 15th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Nov 2010! I want one, I want one, I want one!!! I don’t understand what is taking so long, other than a complete lack of any urgency feelings – or are the oil co’s influencing this? At any rate, make mine one of the first and I’ll be additionally proud of it if GM beats the foreign makers on this one. I’ll take kiwi green with a buckskin interior, please! Also, it doesn’t have to be overly endowed with all kinds of electronic gadgets that I won’t understand or use anyway.
THANKS GM GO GO GO!!
May 15th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
WHEN WILL THE ALL-ELECTRIC VOLT COME OUT…???
May 15th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Yawn
I think your wrong.
What GM is trying to do is bring a production line vehicle to market. A vehicle like this to hundreds of thousands of people will have a huge impact. That is nothing to yawn at. If the people you say are already doing this (like hymotion), to 100’s of 1,000’s of vehicles. Then what you say might make sense.
For this to make a difference GM has to make the vehicle available to everyone. Other wise it is a yawn.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
This is fantastic news, keep the process rolling.
In response to a couple of questions, for this type of vehicle GM is having to design from the ground up (relatively) so it takes time (3 years is a very very short time for a new vehicle).
Toyota could create and rollout a Plug in Prius using NiMH currently if they wanted to, makes you wonder why they don’t.
>> Considering the GM (actually Aerovironment) EV1 got 140 miles per charge on older battery technology and older software technology, 40 miles on pure electric is a HUGE step backwards. I have always wondered why they are only shooting for 40 miles. Why not 100? <<
The cost. The battery pack for the 40 mile range will be many thousands of dollars and having a pack for 100 miles won’t just double the cost, because of all the added weight the car would have to be bigger to handle it necessitating a bigger pack which would be more expensive.
The average amount of mileage a US driver goes in a day is 29 miles. 40 Should cover most people’s needs. GM is also talking of a battery only Volt (no gas engine) presumably with 100 mile range or so to meet the California requirements for a zero emission vehicle. I’ll jump for that.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I think the cruise control annoyances with ICE cars are going to be non issues on the Volt. The mpc you get is going to be a function of the speed you go (ideally constant with cruise control) due to various resistances and the height difference you travel. The two will be largely unrelated. The speed losses will be relatively constant with speed and invariant with elevation change. The elevation related losses (or gains
will be relatively constant with elevation change regardless of speed.
Therefore, the cruise control will just keep the electric motor chugging up (or down) the hill at the same speed, you won’t notice a difference in mpc or up-revving or anything like you would in an ICE powered car.
I am SO looking forward to an electric drivetrain!
May 15th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
#210 Voltman
Your list of EV1 deficiencies is all good, but I’d add:
6) Suited only for drivers shorter than 6′, unless you wanted the sardine experience while driving.
7) Unbelievably annoying intrusion of the battery well in the interior space of the car.
As for your 2), not only was gas cheap, but there was no possibility of any supply disruptions. In a world where gas rationing or gas lines is a real possibility, electric cars start to look really good, regardless of the price.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
216 TOM M
To paraphrase Mark Twain, Tom, my demise has been grossly exaggerated!
Actually, I’ve been more involved in GM’s Plug-in EV program than I’m able to reveal here. In fact, I’ve just this morning followed up by email on an earlier exchange with a leading E-FLEX engineer at GM. Regarding your question about my not necessarily posting daily here*, my primary interest is in posts that I think could contribute to the Volt’s design, operation or market appeal ….and that I would hope might be noticed and perhaps even acted on by GM management, engineering or marketing.
I can say this about the current topic related to the Volt’s 40-mile battery range, however, based on reliable sources (that I won’t identify)….
1) The final production Volt battery should weigh <300Lbs (NOT 400Lbs or more, as often reported) —Lithium-Ion cells and full-up batteries alike are deceptively light in weight for their size/volume
2) The battery’s EOL (end of life) should reach at least 15 years when fully cycled daily (i.e., 365 x 15 = 5,475 full chrg/dschrg cycles)
3) The Volt’s EV-only range at EOL in normal driving should exceed 50 miles & its BOL (beginning of life) range should exceed 65 miles
Again, although these figures are based on reliable sources, not on outright speculation, they are NOT based on inside information from GM!
* However, I DO scan over almost all posts when I’m not traveling, to stay somewhat informed —which I want to encourage our less-frequent posters here to also do, rather than clutter up gm-volt.com threads with uninformed comments/questions!
May 15th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I will put $1,000.00 down today, cash, for a spot in line to buy a Chevy Volt at an additional $28,500.00 at launch.
I will put down $2,500 today, cash, for one of the first 50 spots in line to buy a Chevy Volt at $24,900.00 at launch.
My calculations tell me that the $34K barrier will cram the car into the dead zone of “nice, but didn’t quite grab the market,” and that at <$25K, you will take over as US sales leader. When can I buy one?
Can we start putting money on the table right now? Tell us how…
May 15th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
How about a roof made of solar panels to charge while sitting in parking lots.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Re: My post #230, I’ll add that the final production price to GM of the full-up battery for the gen 1 Volt should be less than $3,500.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I want one now! Any news on the seats and other creature comforts?
May 15th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Hurry Hurry I’m getting older every day, I want a Volt, but can’t wait too long. By the way , why didn’t you call me to test drive the car,??? I’ll give all of you the most honest results.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
5/15/08
As of today regular gas is selling locally (Westchester, NY) at $4.12/gallon. This good news milestone regarding VOLT test track results is causing me to delay the purchase of a Ford Hybrid (Fusion) slated for 2009. Keep on pushing GM.
Has there been discussion regarding the anticipated Federal Tax Credits when purchasing a VOLT? Currently it’s $3,500 for a hybrid with lots of conditions tied to it.
Regards,
John
May 15th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
For all you late enthusiasts wanting to make deposits. Please get in line on this site and sign up . Ya’ll are first after me and about ten thousand others.
Have a Great Day.
Tom
May 15th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Dear nasaman #230 and 233,
Wasn’t I close to the tuth when I suggested we risked to loose you to GM when the Volt Nation event took place ?
Thanks for those very useful informations especially on the weight and cost of the battery. When I check older posts I observe that we were thinking about a 10,000 $ battery.
Being European this reduction in the anticipated weight opens some pespectives on the integration of such batteries in smaller car bodies.
We are very grateful to your comments.
JC
May 15th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
#210 Voltman
Some of your EV1 deficiencies are valid, but a couple leave out important details.
>> 3) It cost $80,0000 which is why they leased it. Nuff said. <> 4) It used lead acid batteries that would not last 5 years, much less 10 <<
Again this leaves out important details. The 2nd Gen EV1 delivered in 1999 (I think) had the NiMH batteries which doubled the range and would last 10 years easy (age doesn’t affect NiMH like other battery technologies). California Edison, which had 300 or so Toyota Rav4 EV’s, did a study and concluded that the NiMH packs in their vehicles would last productively through 150,000 miles (considered the lifespan of an average vehicle) and unlike existing Li Ion, age doesn’t harm NiMH. This issue was fixed for the last two years of EV1 production.
There was a reason GM didn’t allow anyone to buy their EV1’s after they came off of lease and then destroyed them, the 2nd Gen NiMH EV1 was a viable commuter vehicle (it had its flaws, but it was viable), and at that point GM didn’t want to go down the path of making it available to the US consumer. Once the car companies got EV requirement dropped from the CARB rules, they all stopped EV production, rounded up their EV’s and destroyed them (although there were some consumer actions that ended up saving some Ford and Toyota vehicles). The GM CEO who made the EV1 happen to begin with, was long gone by that point, and GM had invested in Hummer.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
I’ll echo Jean-Charles Jacquemin @ 238:
Nasaman, keep up the good work.
If you are already assisting on gen 2, there’s an awfully large number of us that wouldn’t mind the extra weight (or cost) for extended range. Perhaps a BEV for gen 2. Heck, I wouldn’t mind it for gen 1, but I don’t want to gum up the works.
Your battery estimate would suggest a lower price as well…but I won’t get my hopes up. Thanks again.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Nasaman:
Nice to see you here again. Those battery performance numbers are pretty thought provoking, and very encouraging if your sources are correct. I think the consumers would love nothing more than GM to produce a plethora of pleasant suprises with the introduction of the Volt. Provide a longer all-electric range, eye pleasing design, and lower than $30,000 price tag, and GM won’t be able to make enough of them. I’ve said many times, always, always, always under-promise and over-deliver!
May 15th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
For this one on the EV1 (my post above was abbreviated)
>> 3) It cost $80,0000 which is why they leased it. Nuff said. <<
This leaves out that there were only 800 or so vehicles produced over 4 years (yeah basically hand build custom vehicle numbers) to spread the development costs of a totally new (to GM) technology. So in that light $80k a piece isn’t bad.
Now GM could have produced many more EV1’s than they did (mass production anyone) and spread those dev costs out over more cars (lowering their per car price significantly) and also lowering component costs (from mass production), but they didn’t. GM produced just enough EV1’s to meet the California CARB regs and get the credits they needed until they could get the regulation turned over. This was why there were waiting lists, and only movie stars could qualify for a EV1 towards the end…GM wasn’t producing for demand.
The CEO who pushed the EV1 into reality was long gone by the time GM killed the EV1 and GM was investing in Hummer. GM didn’t want to go down EV path at that time. Today, the world is a different place and GM appears to want to do the Volt right. I’m rooting for them, although I would buy a NiMH EV1 today if they were available.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Ernie # 201… I too love my MAXX (07) My 04 Maxx ran really well but when a vehicle gets to around 200 K KMS.. I usually up grade.. and I just went out and got another Maxx. Too bad 07 was the last year for them. I don’t see any reason why GM could not put the “volt” power train onto the Maxx chassis with a bigger battery pack to compensate for the larger vehicle weight and still get 40+ (I am hoping for 60 +) MPC. They will probably do this with the Saturn Arura as it is built on the same chassis.. Either a Volt or an Opel… ASAP
Come on GM…. giterdone
May 15th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
The numbers nasaman indicates would correspond to a pack energy density of 117Wh/kg, which is far above that of the initial prototypes, and also the packs from Mitsubishi’s GS Yuasa venture – both are at around 80Wh/kg. That would seem to suggest that because of the cells’ inherent thermal stability, they were able to cut down on the “packaging”.
As for ranges upwards of 65miles, is that on a 50% discharge? If so, it would imply some monumental improvements in drivetrain efficiency, plus the aero.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Welcome to the world of the GWIZ idiots
May 15th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Has anybody found a dealer willing to take a deposit yet?
May 15th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Yes great news but I would not count my chickens just yet. We know they can build the cells but thus far the integration into a fully functional battery has been by hand. Until they can automate, with quality , the assembly of the entire battery we will not have a Volt. When I hear that, I will then uncork the champaign, for now I am just sniffing the cork and although the smell is very aromatic I have not yet had a taste. Lyle that will be the next “BIG” break through news keep your ears & eyes open for anything on that front to share! I have not heard GM has issued a purchase contract for the batteries but when they do, regardless of price you will know the assembly and cost issues have been solved. GM will not issue a purchase agreement unless the vender can demonstrate ability to deliver quality & quantity within cost!
May 15th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Paraphrasing what another idiot said “It”s the price stupid” $40,000 nuts $30,000 good for them. Good for the country not really. We will not get one we can afford itll 2015 at the earliest.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Good, now maybe oil companies will lower price on gas before they are out of business.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
There ARE a lot of new people on this post.
That is a good thing.
May I suggest to you newbies before you start making comments, please review this post from top to bottom. It would be good if you could review several of the other subject post before commenting.
That by itself will help bring you up to speed and educate you. Your first comment will be based on good information and make you seem like the intelligent future Volt buyer that I am sure you are.
And THAT will be a good thing.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Does anybody know what the approximate electric cost is to charge the car to run 40 miles?…and if possible in specific the Baltimore/Washington electric market?
May 15th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Does anybody know what the approximate electric cost is to charge the car to run 40 miles?…and if possible in specific the Baltimore/Washington electric market?
May 15th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
251 Tom
If your KWh cost is 10 cents, say, the cost for 40 miles will be 8kWhx $0.10 = 80 cents
May 15th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Firefly #223
You are EXACTLY on beam. I don’t think it could have been said any better. Listen up you guys and listen to Firefly. He (assuming here) is a steady contributor to this site with a lot of good things to say.
Thanks, Firefly.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
I think it is about time Lyle places the word EV1 into moderation then delete the post. Come on guys. Let it go. This is not the EV1. This is a much different vehicle with tremendously more capabilities and complexities. The EV1 was an expensive DOG compared to the concept Volt.
Let us discuss the Volt and not the EV1. Give GM credit for the Volt concept and the plans to get it into mass production. This is not an easy thing to do. Let’s try to be as positive as possible. We need to give GM as much encouragement as possible. This car is very important to you, me and GM.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
nasaman
Good to hear from you. Very interesting information. That is what I was hoping to hear about mileage per charge. I thought all along we would see 50+ miles on electric before ICE involvement. That is great, to say the least.
Keep us updated. Always good to read your comments.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Is this the largest number of comments to any of the Volt posts? Now at 257 and still climbing.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Great! I can’t wait for a real answer to this countries’ problems!
May 15th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
CLEANOVA III ALL ELECTRIC 150KM = 93 MILES. 100KM/H PEAK
THEY ARE ALREADY ON THE ROAD (FRENCH POST BOUGHT THEM).
PRODUCTION 2009 FOR ISRAEL AND DANEMARK.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
#247 Neutron Flux is correct on an issue I had mentioned a while back (about a month, I think-I’m not too sure.) I think that GM is making good strides towards a production goal, and for that accolades are well deserved. But as Neutron Flux pointed out as well as the blog, this was achieved running with roughed-in hardware and a basic software format (GM Beta1, anyone?). Truth is, mass producing the batteries will probably be the biggest hurdle in Volt production. Many of the components are pretty much off-the-shelf with the exception of a few engineered items. I’m probably being presumptuous here but I’d like to believe that for the first 10,000 to 50,000 Volts, both battery manufacturers will be used. I said this about 3 weeks ago in a different post that I believe that GM will “over-deliver” on the battery. Having it supply enough juice for 40 miles would not be smart as with any man-made thing there is ALWAYS the possibility of error.
My guess is get the battery to deliver (gross) 55 to 63 miles within operating tolerance. That way, you get the 40 to 50 you promised and still have an emergency buffer just in case, sort of a limp-home mode.
#251/252 Tom- I agree with Nasaman with the $.10, as my parents live in Towson, Maryland and that’s about what they pay I believe. Also, Tom, that question is right on the money and should be one of the more relovent FAQ’s about the Volt. Upon purchase, you will now have TWO power options. This will be just as if not more important as the cost of a gallon of reg. unl., except that you will pay for your fill-up once per month. My suggestion is to make your home as energy efficient as possible as to lessen the Volt’s charging load.
#254 N Riley- While I thank you for the positive reply (which is very much appreciated) there are so many people on this site that I still learn from every day. I’m just one of many. Nasaman, Estero and so many others here keep me just as informed. So it’s not just me. I’m just looking forward to finally meeting some of you in about 2 years. (Man, that sounds funny…)
May 15th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
251 and 252 Tom
Yes!
May 15th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
This car is a technical masterpiece. However, they better keep the concept look!!!
May 15th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
I’ve been critical of GM and the other US automakers since the 70’s. Their lack of taking the long range view has caused nothing but disaster for them and the country. If GM can pull this off with the Volt, I might start believing again.
Could be what’s good for GM is good for the country, again!
May 15th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
“I have always wondered why they are only shooting for 40 miles. Why not 100? ”
Short answer because this isn’t a BEV (battery powered vehicle with no other means of propulsion)
Long answer: Because it would be stupid for GM to target 100 mpc! Why stupid? because that would raise the cost. And that additional benefit to most people (target market for THIS car) would not be beneficial to those people EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY THINK OTHERWISE!
May 15th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Here is a link to a post by a fellow who severly overcharged his A123 cells. They vented and are certainly ruined, but no fire. This is one of the reasons I would like to see A123 cells in the Volt. You can put all kinds of safeguards on but the watch dog microprocessor can fail. I want a battery that is inherently safe.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862110
May 15th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
If you visit the GM web site you may see sort of an EV panel. May this be the Volt?
Gm.com
May 15th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
By the way, just keep refreshing the page if you do not see the pic once you visit the page.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
#255 N Riley:
Speaking of moderation, I would like to see “newbies” go into moderation. I certainly do not presume to call anyone a “newbie”, or any such thing. Having an influence on GM, and the advertisers who support this blog come to that, is a numbers game. Every participant is valuable. No question is a dumb question. God love you all and welcome, IMHO.
I hasten to add that this is not directed at you. I just liked your idea of “moderation”.
#257 N Riley:
One post some weeks ago, on the price issue if memory serves, generated over 500 comments. If you scroll down the right side of the pages, I think that there is a ranking of the posts which have generated the most comments.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
#257 N Riley:
Yeah, I found it. This one is currently tied for 3rd. Not bad. Of course, the night is young!
May 15th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
I want one now. Can I go ahead and pay for it?
May 15th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Why did the comments explode on this non-controversial topic? The two other posts dealt with giving GM direct input. I could see why we all came out of the woodwork for those. But this? We must be growing. I’m glad there are more voices. This Volt is really something to rally behind.
New people want to learn and they want to be heard. They want to be part of the conversation. But, with more voices comes more clutter. For those of you that want to learn, could you please go to the home page and do a search for your topic? A lot of things have already been asked and debated. For those of you that want to be heard, if your position has already been stated, please refrain from stating it yourself (I know, I’m repeating things that have already been said in this post). If we can keep this site informative, respectful, and concise, it will be more interesting for all.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
26ChampsYanks
There is an hydrogen tank level but it dose not look like a equinox
May 15th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Stop sending all the email followup comments.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
AWESOME!!!! Keep at it GM! I will be at the dealership waiting on the first shipment to get here. It will do wonders for my morale to drive right by the gas stations that are gouging everybody. This is the first MAJOR step toward fighting back against the oil bullies!!
May 15th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
that’s awesome news, im so stoked now.
i can’t wait to get myself a volt.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
The influx of new people may be linked to the readership of Edmunds, the company that Bob Lutz gave the interview to.
I think something similar happened when Lyle was involved in that TV interview in New York.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
AWESOME GM KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. I’M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE REAL THING. I HAVE YOUR PROTOTYPE MODEL ON MY DRESSER, SO THAT I STAY FOCUSED.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
ok I will stop attacking the lazy union workers now.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Nasaman,
“2) The battery’s EOL (end of life) should reach at least 15 years when fully cycled daily (i.e., 365 x 15 = 5,475 full chrg/dschrg cycles)
3) The Volt’s EV-only range at EOL in normal driving should exceed 50 miles & its BOL (beginning of life) range should exceed 65 miles”
Very exciting comments. If this is accurate, it is tremendous. I have some questions related to the above items.
2) Do you mean full pack cycles (0% – 100%) or Volt discharge cycles (~30%-80%)? I assume from your math that this is considering the Volt’s cycle. Plenty good either way. Does this mean both vendors batteries meet this or only one?
3) What are you considering “normal” driving? Sounds like the pack will be larger than 16KWh or they are planning to expand the Volt discharge cycle or both.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
I doubt they are considering expanding the battery pak and I doubt they have yet to expand the upper and lower SOC limits. They made conservative estimates on the range after ~10 years of use. Longshot battery perfomance has so far come through with flying colors. Batteries are apparently performing better or as well as expected. GM did not want to contend with a promise of 40 miles that turned into 35 and have to deal with all the negative press. So they simply lowballed the figure, something we were all aware of from the beginning. So the news here is that the batteries are perfoming like they should be expected to giving us more range when not using lights, ac, wipers, radio all the time.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
This is the best news since the first time I heard about the EV1.
Maybe GM will make a super version of the Volt and start producing a updated EV1 again with these new batteries…it would be the “Vette” version….probably get 300 miles on a charge…with max batteries… but what if you only wanted to get 75 miles a day … the batteries would probably be the same size of the Volt.
You know…. I would actually donate money to help this car along.
The Japanese government gives the Japanese companies tons of free money… I would like to see our companies helped.
Congratulations GM engineers… keep up the good work.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Great work, Great news. A breakthrough like this could transform our country, economy, evironment, ect. Other than the Honda FCX, i have not heard of any other automakers attempting to produce anything other than a hybrid. Hybrids are not the answer for people like me that drive sixty miles to work one way on an interstate.
Very Good work GM, hope to see the product on the lot soon.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
I normally like to read the replies before I post, but there are already too many at 9:30 PM Eastern. Yes, this is exciting news; and a 45 mile electric range would get me to work and back, if I don’t go out to lunch.
In the deep South, I’m much more concerned by the drain caused by airconditioning (at times, it is a necessity!) I wonder if an all-electric heat pump might be an answer for most climates? Able to extract heat from the air rather than fall back on resistance.
Another idea for cold climates might be some kind of “heat battery.” When the ICE generator is running, waste heat could drive hydrogen out of a small, sealed hydride cell, to collect in a tank. When it’s cold, and you’re running all electric, the hydrogen could be let back into the hydride cell, releasing heat. Perhaps another chemical couple/system would be more efficient, or less expensive than this.
I’ve recently heard of GM research into HCCI combustion for ICE, which sounds impressive all by itself. HCCI generator, anyone?
Whatever is achieved in terms of daily range, the cause of battery longevity mustn’t suffer any loss as a result. I can just see someone in 20 years saying, “Yeah, I had one of those plug ins, back in the teens, and the @#$% battery had to be replaced after 6 years. It cost more than the car’s resale value! Never again.”
It pleases me to no end that an American company is stepping up to bring such urgently needed technology to the road, but it’s not a task I envy them. It has to be compelling, it has to work first time; and it’s a lot harder to lead than follow.
Good luck, guys!
May 15th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Hmmm, all the comments seem suspiciously positive. I wonder if someone is filtering out the negative ones. I bought a GM vehicle and it was a total lemon. Three transmissions in two years. I bet the Volt will be severely lacking in quality. I’d much rather buy a Smart car or even a Toyota Prius.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Absolutely excellent news! Regular gas here near Toronto is now at $1.25/Litre (approx. $4.75/gal). I’m can hardly wait for the day when I can drive by those vampire oil company gas stations without a care for what they are charging for their transport fuel, as I’ll be getting my car’s energy out of my wall plug! he, he, he
May 15th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
This is great news. The Volt is the first car in the last 20 years that I just can’t wait to drive!
Guys, keep up the great work. There will be a big crowd waiting to get their hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals of this one!
May 15th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
PJK @281
Yes! A renewed/updated EV1 using the new Lion cells. I wonder if this would be icing on GM’s cake in terms of redeeming itself from the whole EV1 debaucle? It would make for a really nice niche city/urban commuter car for those interested, which for places like L.A, NY city, Toronto etc., I would think there would be sufficient numbers interested, that such a vehicle would be profitable.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Can’t wait for this car to be in the showroom.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
omegaman66
8KWh is 8KWh. There are no miracle cures to squeeze that much more range out of it. Anything close to the Cd that has been discussed for the Volt can only get about 40 miles AER at 60 MPH on 8KWh.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Len stated, “A123 cells are capable of accepting the charge very rapidly. I think the limit will be what your house is willing to give. We use the cells to power model airplanes and charge them at multiples of their capacity. If you roughly estimate that you can go 40 miles in an hour and the battery is depleted, it would be possible to charge it in 15 or twenty minutes, but the amps needed would be prohibitive. It would be like the on demand hot water heaters, 70 amps to charge a 140 amp hour battery in two hours.”
Ok, so I have a question for you electronics gurus. Does it cost any more to charge the vehicle faster vs. slower? Forget about off-peak/on-peak electric. Meaning, if you need to charge the 140 amp-hr battery, will it cost any more to charge it faster? I would think not, as long as the electric can pump it out. A typical home is 200 amps, correct? So what would the max charging rate be that wouldn’t affect home products? Maybe 100 amp?
May 15th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
And on that same note, are there any limits to the typical 110-volt (household socket) vs. a 220-volt socket used for large appliances such as driers or electric stoves?
Clarification: What are the limits for a 110-volt socket vs 220-volt? 220 would mean faster charging right? And if I recall, 220-volt electric heaters are cheaper to run than 110-volt.
So wouldn’t that mean 220-volt chargers would charge your car quicker AND be cheaper??
May 15th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
If the Volt comes out looking anything like the vehicle picture above, please take me off your email list.
What a shame if it wasnt anything as shown in the prototype.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
BigRedFed,
I just read an article that states that “Chevy Volt mules are based on old Malibu, production cars on smaller Cobalt”.
The malibu weighs 3436 lbs. It is 57.1″ heigh, and 191.8″ long, and basically 60″ wide. The wheelbase is 112.3″.
The cobalt weighs 3216 lbs. It is 57.1″ heigh, and 180.3″ long, and 58″ wide. The wheelbase is 103.3″.
So, in comparison, the malibu is 220 heavier than the volt.
Ok, physics gurus, can we throw that into a formula and come up with a new estimate for pulling 220 lbs less?
Source: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11/16/chevy-volt-mules-are-based-on-old-malibu-production-cars-on-sma/
May 15th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Software is the easiest! Allow the onboard computer to store and analyze every recorded route to optimize the “coast” coefficient (when battery power is not needed) to the point where the vehicle can no longer “coast” up-hill and the accelerator (battery power) needs to be applied to maintain a desired speed. Changing of speed/braking due to traffic conditions would be excluded for each maximized programmed route for the minimal power distribution formula calculation.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
@Rocco –
Great! Very creative ideal – too bad most SW engineers are dead to the world. With GPS and a few cheap sensors they could practically make the car drive itself…
May 15th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
290 Michael
A typical home outlet is 110V/15A, or about 1.6KW. This means that it takes about 5 hours to pump 8KWH into the Volt, or 10 hours for a full 16KWH charge. The big outlets in a home are 220V/30A (electric dryer) or 220V/50A (electric oven or resistance heater). 220V/30A feeds about 6KW, which would fill the 8KWH half-charge in 80 minutes, or full charge in 160 minutes. The 220V/50A would be even faster, but electrical codes usually don’t allow these to use an outlet – they have to be permanenty wired to the device (not feasible for an electric car).
292 Michael
We don’t have all of the details from GM, but IMHO the 220 lb difference between the Cobalt and the Malibu isn’t a big deal. Weight has a small impact on the rolling resistance, and the extra energy needed to get the weight up to speed would only come back in the regenerative braking. However, I think we’ll see a BIG difference in the production Volt because of aerodynamic improvements.
In another post, the GM engineers said that 70% of the Volt’s energy was consumed in wind resistance. This is much bigger than in a standard car because the electric drive recovers most of the energy lost in braking losses. Toyota knew this when they made the Prius look like an overgrown jellybean.
Most likely, the aero design is the biggest difference between the Malibu and the Volt. The Malibu was built for cheap manufacture, while the Volt is built for economy. I have no doubt that the aero design of the Volt will dramatically improve that 40 mile number in the end.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Gary Goggin stated, “9 years ago i paid €3000 for a 400mhz Pentium 3 computer, it was state of the art then! today you can get get a computer that’s 10 times as powerful for a tenth of the price. The most costly part of the volt is the battery and i predict that with the weight of the major car companies behind this technology, by 2015 you will be able to buy a 200 mile range Ev for the same relative price of a gasoline car!”
I agree completely. Once enough volts sell, hopefully of good quality so that others will want one as well, they can be mass produced for a much cheaper price! We just need to get through phase 1. Build the car, run little man, run!
May 15th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
#87: Computer-codger
“From the above paragraph it sounds like GM has not settled on how much to charge the battery with the ICE. I though it was settled that the ICE would just sustain the battery at about the 30% level while ICE is running. Does anyone else have the same question? When Volt was first announced GM had advertised that you could charge the battery while in Park, but it sounds like GM is thinking of charging while driving, at least in some cases.”
I don’t think it really matters whether the car is being driven or parked. An alternator would charge the batteries regardless wouldn’t it? Or maybe GM should let this be a menu option or push button (Similar to the traction control button on GM cars with the shifter on the floor, a button could allow for “charging while in park”. Good idea!
I also like the idea that you could program your address into the GPS, and the computer would check to see how far from home you are–and it could decide if it needs to keep the engine running steadily or just kicking on and off to recharge enough to get home.
Regardless, this is all a software issue. Let’s let them build the car. If they have to tweak it later, we can get a firmware upgrade.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Koz: “There are no miracle cures to squeeze that much more range out of it.”
I agree there are no miracle cures but the engineers could easily discover the batteries can be used to 65% of their full charge status instead of 50%. Nothing miraculous as that. That is version 2.0 or later most probably.
The mules are meeting expectation and the volt will do better than the mules. That much we know. That means more than 40 mpc.
GM has consistantly said they batteries are meeting all expectations so far. That means 40 miles at end of life. That means more than 40 at beginning of life.
For all I know the volt only gets 1 mpc just going by what is being released.
I think over 40 miles at inception is pretty much a given without all the accessories running and hopefully with them running.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
294 swimdad623
I’m currently remodeling my home. The code states that we had to have a drier “outlet” at 220v, i forget the amperage.
Granted the drier is fairly heavy and not easily or often moved, I see no harm in having an extra “outlet” for Volt charging.
Even the smaller, 220/30a would charge the car in 160 minutes (or 2.66 hours). This is a huge improvement over 5 hours. You might not stay at your inlaws for 5 hours, but 2-3 for dinner and chat is average and completely acceptable!
Do you think it would be a problem for GM to implement this? Are these higher rate chargers much more expensive? If so, how much more expensive?
Isn’t this similar to the type of connections on home generators that plug into a transfer switch on a home. I can’t imagine the code inspectors caring one bit…
30 amps is like nothing. All of the electric heaters in my house run off a 30 amp circuit.