Renault-Nissan To Spend $1 Billion Building Electric Cars, and Already Shows One Off
Making the news again lately are the efforts of Project Better Place, a company moving to implement electric cars and an electric car charging infrastructure in Israel and Denmark, and hoping to spread from there.
The automaker charged with building the cars is Renault in partnership with Nissan. Coming out of this is the admission that this team will have to spend $1 billion to produce the cars over the next three years.
A few dozen demonstration cars will appear in Israel this year, and a functioning model was just displayed (see graphic above). Of course as it turns out, the battery in the model is “an improvisation made by a local electrician,” however they plan to roll out hundreds of these cars next year and go full scale in 2010.
Nissan in partnership with NEC will be producing the battery packs and plans to ramp up quickly to the 100,000 unit stage. Apparently A123’s cells are also in the mix.
The cars are expected to get 125 miles per charge on a 400 pound swappable battery.
Also, Nissan wants to be a global leader in electric cars. They plan to enter the U.S. market in 2010 with three vehicle classes; a small car, a sedan, and a light commercial vehicle.
Nissan-Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn notes that there are 69 million cars sold per year worldwide, 10 million of which are for urban use. He said that urban market is “the first target of electric vehicles,” and “it could go further with the development of technology.”
Source (Reuters) and (Autoweek)
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Isn’t it amazing how we go from “Who Killed the Electric Car?” to every major automaker introducing EV’s for the 2010 model year?
I sure hope GM can pull this off. Mitsubishi Motor Company has a hybrid in the works also. Looks interesting to say the least. Seems like a lot of new thoughts coming to the table. I am glad to see it. After the 1973 high priced gas there were a lot of ideas floating around. Most of them died when the price of gas went back down. Seems like there are a lot more ideas this time. Its going to be interesting to see how many of them become REAL products. I look forward to this new fight.
Take Care
Arch
Life will be good!
When they compete we win… Wait i heard that somewhere.
#2 Arch - Did you mean the Altima Hybrid? If so, it’s already on the market in the US.
#2 Arch - sorry, I was thinking of Nissan. Mitsubishi’s hybrid will also use the A123 battery.
Isn’t beeeaaautiiiful…. bring tears to my eyes
Competition…presure to deliver and well… anyone with a tissue around?? 
#1, Jason..
I think the documentary ‘Who Killed the Electric Car?’ was bad press for ALL car manufacturers, besides GM, for killing their EV prototypes and the very few cars that were around. Now they are playing catch-up to regain people’s support. I’m guessing a lot of people wrote in e-mails, letters and whatnot, saying this simple sentence:
Don’t give me a plug, you won’t get my money.
How can they get 125 miles out of a 400 pound battery when GM is saying they can get 40 miles out of a 350 pound battery? Deep discharge? Nah, still doesn’t add up.
The Mits news.
http://www.naturalnews.com/023212.html
Take Care
Arch
France can truly wean themselves from imported oil and almost erase their carbon footprint by moving to electric vehicles (virtually all base load nuclear powered country). As I’ve mentioned, get on board, auto makers, the train is leaving.
How are they going to get 125 miles on a 400 lb. battery? That’s about what the Volt battery will weigh.
The Volt is wrestling to maintain 40 electric miles and a ten year / 150,000 mile battery! Something doesn’t add up, and I’m guessing it’s the 125 miles for 10 years/ 150,000 miles.
The Volt will go farther then 40 miles on electric alone.
The vehicle is supplied on lease I understand, the batteries could be well below GM’s standards relying on rapid improvements in battery technology to lower the price of replacement batteries.
That sounds reasonable.
Re: Jason
It’s amazing what $125/barrel oil will do. Also for what it’s worth, Chris Paine, who made the documentary, I believe is working on a follow up called something like “Who Saved the Electric Car?”, in which I think GM could the focus on again since they sadly were the one focused on in the “Killed” one (when all the automakers killed their EV programs, not just GM).
As for getting 125 miles on a charge in 400 pound pack… it could be that their packs are a little bit more energy dense… but keep in mind the Volt’s pack is 16kwh, of which only 1/2 the capacity is actually used (only charged to 80% SoC, and the range extender kicks on when it goes down to 30% SoC)…. and has Speedy says, the Volt should actually get more than 40 miles/charge in it’s earlier years… GM is supposed to be saying it should get 40 miles/charge in 10 years of use. So let’s say it’s 45 miles on 8kwh.. a 16kwh pack, “if” you were able to use it from 0-100% SoC, that would be 90 miles. Of course I also assume the reduces battery life, and GM is being conservative with their 50% SoC range to make sure it lasts 150,000 miles or 15 years (especially since it’s being purchased as part of the car).
I also wouldn’t be surprised if the Nissan’s are lighter (read smaller as well) than the Volt so that could give it more range as well.
Also note that Nissan is only planning retail sale in the US around 2012… 2010 will only be “fleet” sales.
Expected price … $25,000, but it doesn’t say if that is with a leased battery or not.
From http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11332425
When Nissan launches its new line of electrical vehicles in America in 2010, it will initially target fleet buyers, which can provide their own charging stations. “It will be a real business,” says Tom Lane, Nissan’s global product-planning chief, “not just a way to sell 200 cars in California.” He expects sales to retail buyers to begin in 2012, at a price of around $25,000.
Folks,
Think! The focus of this thread isn’t Renault-Nissan, but PBP.
I’ve been vocal in the past about this socialistic approach to EVs, and while it might work in places in Europe, it won’t in the US. Never.
Let’s take these claims for what they are, a grain of salt.
While it’s nice to see focus on EVs, it will be competition that will further the cause, not PBP!
This is a link to an interesting story in The American Spectator about nuclear power in France. A real eye opener!!
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13189
I appears that the technology has been around for some time.
With Trillions of Dollars still in the ground {oil} they are “milking” it for as long as they can.
Spin
NICE STUFF! I have no idea how we get over our hangups.
Take Care
Arch
Everyone has been pushing the energy companies to come up with a new energy fuel.. The fact of the matter is that it had to be the automotive industry that provided the innovation. A Republican lead Washington has been wrong about trying to give tax cuts to the energy industry to create the innovation. There is no motivation there to do it. Grants should have been provided to the automotive industry to do this. The good news is that the automotive industry (although doing so a little later than we’d like) is working to provide that innovation.
@ #18 Vincent… Sure they’ll milk it as long as they can, but that’s just the nature of the game. These companies have spent trillions on building that oil infrastructure - not surprising it’ll take decades to dismantle and ween the public off pure-play internal combustion engines.
The real question is - can we create enough renewable energy on the grid to ensure that our electric-car future isn’t sending oil away from our gas tanks and straight in to a power plant instead? (Or worse, requiring even more coal)… Let’s hope!
This is really great. I’m always happy to see more players enter the market.
I suspect that mass-generation of electricity, even with coal, can power electric cars more cleanly/efficiently overall than having IC engines in all those cars. More renewable energy would certainly be welcomed, but on the whole my impression is that even “regular” electricity has its benefits over fossil fuel-burning engines. Am I right on this?
No. 9 and 12:
1. the Volt will be able to drive a lot more than 40 miles in the beginning of it’s life. 40 miles is the commitment after 10 years and when the battery is at it’s final stage.
2. the electric car of Renault-Nissan doesn’t have to last 10 years. there’s no requirement for that because the battery is swappable and not in the possession of the client but leased, so the chemistry allows trade off between power density over lifetime.
these are the reasons why 125 mile range for a 400 pound battery is indeed possible.
Currently,
I have gas.
Dear Bruce #14,
Perhaps this excerpt may clarify your statement : source :
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/wordpress/?p=412
“The Renault-Nissan Alliance / Project Better Place model will separate ownership of the car from the requirement to own a battery. Consumers will buy and own their car and subscribe to energy, including the use of the battery, on a basis of kilometers driven.”
As Arch use to write, take care all.
Sorry,
“As Arch is used to write, …”
Jean-Charles,
Yes, I should check my sources before I write, I just pulled the lease comment from memories of the Project Better place information.
sigh..
A text search of the site would be a great feature but unlikely I think.
To swap 400 pound battey will be tricky.
Comparing the range - you are forgetting that the Renault don’t have a ICE - hence lighter weight and longer range.
The PBP is perfect for Israel and if it succeeds it will find more markets.
The onlt problem is that if the company that owns the leased batteries decides to quit or goes broke, you are left with a $25K car that can go nowhere…..
Leasing the battery pack scares me!!!!
Darius,
I thought the same about replacing whole traction battery packs until I watched Shai Agassi’s Project Better Place presentation. He puts it this way:
Building a robot that you drive up to and which changes a traction-battery (even a 400lb one) is no harder than building a robot which you drive up to and which washes, waxes, and drys your car without mangling it.
I think it’s a good analogy, so I think it can be done pretty easily. However I still prefer the EREV as it better solves the range anxiety problem and it doesn’t need ANY new infrastructure in order to get going tomorrow - it just needs a flippin’ CAR!
Obviously the Israelis have their particular political reasons for wanting to electrify their roads so as not to use a single DROP of oil, so I understand that rapid charging or battery swapping may well appeal more there.
Hopefully the boffins one day give us 1000 mile batteries and all of these problems go away!
….or perhaps we’ll end up a-la Logan’s Run and will all drive solar powered hovercraft which stop when the sun goes down - then we could all get out of our cars and get to know each other like they all did in New York when the lights went out
#22 yes you are right!
If GM is expecting the Volt to give them a different perception, they have better come out with the Volt sooner. If it comes out in 2010, as planned, then they’ve better come out with something superior,or all the hype for the Volt will be gone in 2010.
Are they mum on this do they not see the benefits yet? I am talking about the fact that the Volt is the only car planned right now to have the battery with generator range extender. Are the others now wising up and plan on producing such cars? I hope so!!! If not GM stands to really pull ahead.
I take Renault-Nissan new with a grain of Salt. They have been scampering to play catch up for ages. This news is the culmination of a deal with NEC that started a little over a year ago.
I’m sure they have been pounding their heads off the wall attempting to get development done…while at the same time another team has been working their butt of trying to produce something/anything to show the public.
To me the only legitimate player in this segment (EV for the masses from a major auto) is still the iMiEV. The have 100s of WORKING/on the road test fleet cars and are actually coming to market in 12 months. There is no denying their progress…I never would have guessed their level of comittment to EV was this great a year or two ago.
The race for 2nd and 3rd is between the GM and Toyota. After that? Complete crap shoot.
#29 Jim I
No different than if the gas stations stop selling gas. At least you can still charge the battery up at home.
It would be easy to swap out the battery, and the process would be automated, like going to the carwash.
Finally, the 125 mile claim would be possible if batteries engineered for power not life cycles.
I would like to see a version of the Volt, where we have our main battery and can lease/swap out a spare where the genset lives.
This helps the entire market, provides the push and competition to get the Volt out as fast as possible.
why GM is waiting with the volt ? If Renault can do it so why to GM is take time ? is it because Renault-Nissan are better or maybe GM dosen’t relly to make it and just because the “greens” they try to show they do something.
33 omegaman66 says, “….do they not see the benefits yet? I am talking about the fact that the Volt is the only car planned right now to have the battery with a generator range extender.”
GOOD QUESTION: WHY DO SO FEW OTHER COMPANY’S EV DESIGNS INCLUDE RANGE EXTENDERS? My guess is that it’s because GM will likely be awarded strong/broad patent protection for its E-REV/E-FLEX architecture, including variants of the version used in the Volt. So unless GM decides to license its use, anyone does so at their own peril. [Note that Toyota just lost a hybrid technology lawsuit they took to the US Supreme Court over an obscure microprocessor technology owned by a US firm (the technique allows a microprocessor to accept torque information from both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine). That will cost Toyota $4.3 mill, plus $25 for every car they've sold using "Synergy Drive" (i.e., >$25 mill) -- peanuts to Toyota or Nissan perhaps, but not to most start-up EV makers.]
GM — Please offer to license E-REV/E-FLEX technology to other car makers!
#36 Kevin & #37 David
GM is already going as fast as possible. The normal development cycle for a car from the ground up is five years. GM is doing it in three, so there is nothing slow there.
This is why they have announced the start on version two already, so it will only be a couple of years after Version one comes out.
The production line has already been chosen and will close for retooling at the end of next year.
I can’t see how Renault-Nissan plans to do it so fast, unless they are just modifying an existing frame. Even so it seems tough.
Toyota announced their PHEV version of the Prius for the same time as the Volt then backtracked as their production system won’t allow for accelerated time schedules.
Also GM & Toyota need to do extensive testing of the battery, which Nissan-Renault doesn’t.
Hope this helps.
David
I wonder if that is the case as well. But if so… I think something is screwed up. After all how can you award a patent on a generator just because it is located in a car??? I hope others have these in the planning stages at least.
From GM’s perspective it would it would be a good thing for li batteries to not improve to fast or be replaced by other technology such as ultracapacitors. That technological break thru could mean that cars simply leap frog the range extender all together and go straight to all electric with quick charge.
#34 Statik I agree that the iMiEV appears to be a very strong product. Even better, it comes from a company with a very strong engineering reputation.
Nasaman
I wondered why Tesla had slowed up on design of the range extended Whitestar.
I can’t see GM allowing the E-flex to be used by others without a hefty fee being paid, it would not make sense to them. At least in the early years.
#39 NZDavid
Where is the production line that was chosen? I’ve heard nothing on that one yet.
#40 omegaman66
The patent would be for the way the genset interacts with the batteries and the drive motor. Given some of the patents I have seen, it probably reads like a zen monk wrote it so any sort of combination would be covered. Probably how Toyota got caught. IMHO.
40 omegaman66
I hold several patents. For example, the A/D converter system used on every stage of the Saturn moon rocket. But NASA (nor I) receive royalties for A/D conversion in general (which makes CD’s & DVD’s possible). It’s the exact implementation of an idea, not the idea itself, that can be patented.
So trust me —the complex control interfaces between a generator, battery and electric motor, for example, are the kinds of technologies (”claims”) GM would seek patent protection for –and I strongly suspect GM conceived and reduced to practice the E-REV technology even before the E-1, perhaps before the Impact.
PS: Of course, there’s always an engineer’s pride (known as the “NIH or not invented here factor”) that steers designers away from competing designs. In any event, I can’t imagine ANY company, including Toyota, would want to risk taking on GM’s lawyers in a patent infringement lawsuit!
Re: My post #45, last line — I of course mean “EV-1″, not E-1
Dear all,
A little national pride here, see “http://www.imperia-auto.be/en/news.php”, 60 kms in EV pure mode with a generator. It seems they didn’t fear GM when conceiving the concept.
But those patents could not stop another company from developing different methods of interfacing those components, is that correct?
I always thought a patent covered a very specific method or process.
I am from a applications software background, where there are lots of different ways of achieving the same results, so I am way out of my element here….
If a car is built with a parallel drive system , same weight ,drag and AER as the series drive Volt . Which system will deliver the best fuel economy in miles 50 thru 350 ? Did GM go series to avoid some Toyota IP ? I hope my new Volt will not come with a mileage penalty once AER is exhausted versus a direct / lockup transmission or a parallel hybrid .
Also, wasn’t one of the Chrysler concept vehicles listed as having an onboard generator and another to have an onboard fuel cell to give extended range?
I can’t believe that GM would be able to lock out anyone else from making this type of vehicle. They would just not be able to duplicate the exact hardware and software as designed by GM.
Or am I completely wrong about this?
#48 Jean-Charles Jacquemin
The Imperia Automobiles project is certainly stylish. It is great to see the flourishing variants of electrified automobiles. Clearly, we are in a transitional era.
I don’t begrudge you your national pride. You’ve graciously put up with ours (U.S.). Having said that, I hope you don’t take offense if I mention that the one leading the (electric) charge gets the glory. There is a lot of marketing potential for the first decent, affordable AER autos on the market. The Imperia Automobiles project is further evidence that the competition is heating up.
#51 Jim I
The Volvo Recharge concept is a series hybrid.
#43 Kevin
Quoted by Lyle, I forget when.
http://www.thegmsource.com/index.php?categoryid=9&p2_articleid=880
Hybrid cars have been around for many years. A lot of the technology is old hat. Check this out.
http://www.hybrid-cars-guide.com/hybrid-cars-history.html
Take Care
Arch
#53 ThombDbhomb,
Volvo Recharge PM stated “car will be on the market 7 years from now”, it really means “never”. Project development budget is around $ 50. It means “nothing”. And in-wheel motor approach is still not realistic. Volvo has tested “electric” and “hybrid” cars with fancy turbine generators sets for variable fuels and built numerous concept or “demonstration” models, but it always has been treated as company marketing and PR. Management never trusted and really invested in EV.
#52 ThombDbhomb,
No offense, you are right.
P.S. Sorry shall be $ 50 mln. instead of $50.
Nissan has announced plans to market an all-electric car in U.S. by 2010 in the May 13, 2008 edition of the New York Times.
49 Jim I
I’ve chaired hundreds of design reviews of space hardware and software. In general, there are many more ways to “skin a cat” in the software realm than in hardware (so Microsoft has been able to essentially duplicate most key MacIntosh capabilities in Windows while avoiding infringement penalties).
Hardware designs are somewhat easier to protect IF the applicant is able to make numerous strong claims to “hang his hat on”, as we say. GM has decades of background in EV development, including range-extended EV’s, so I believe they’ll be able to cover E-REV, E-FLEX, etc with a very broad range of tough patents. (And in the early years while a patent is “pending” it’s NOT available for examination by anyone outside the Patent Office, so it’s guesswork as to whether a similar design might infringe any of many eventual patents.)
Serial hybrids (aka, battery EV’s with range extenders) like the Volt are old technology as others have pointed out. GM also wasn’t the only one designing and/or prototyping them while the ZEV mandate was still alive.
See Ford’s slide show from 5 years ago at http://www.epa.gov/oar/caaac/mstrs/ford.pdf (page 6 and 7). They even use the term “Range Extender Hybrids (Series Hybrid)”…
It’s nice that Nissan is embracing EVs, unfortunately Mr Ghosn has a track record of questionable decisions, and this seems to be yet another attempt by him in a seried of futile attempts to overtake Toyota and Honda. He bought into Agassi’s silly resurrection of an old and discredited concept of swappable batteries. But he sacrificed range in exchange for lower cost packs and ends up with a car almost as inconvenient as the EV-1 for trips. In his vehicles, a long trip consists in large part of stopping and getting battery swaps every 70 to 80 minutes or so. And the concept of swapping requires that each 100 customers will require way more than 100 battery packs, a strange tactic when the cost of battery packs is one of the main obstacles to a practical EV. It therefore means that he is inadvertently maximizing the cost of an EV, which can’t be the path to sales success, even if he can hide those costs in a pay-as-you-go scheme that will equal or exceed $8 gasoline. So much for the concept of cheap transportation costs. And a 400 pound battery pack that goes 120 miles is a battery pack that won’t last anywhere near 10 years, making the costs even greater. Perhaps these guys are assuming a much lower cost for battery packs down the road.
Unfortunately for them, if EEStor devices work, their swappable infrastructure will be the biggest white elephant ever conceived. Ditto if lower cost plug-ins appear in force. Israel is the size of a postage stamp - a 40 to 50 mile range plug-in hybrid can do everything they could possibly want. That’s what makes their decision so braindead and inexplicable. I never thought the Israeli leaders were so dumb. They are chasing a very questionable and expensive technology that can be easily made totally obsolete when they don’t even have to. I consider the root problem one of politics in a country of technology ignorant citizens.
All I see is govt waste and screwing the consumer : losing all those gas taxes plus the gigantic cost of the infrastructure (which Israel has apparently allowed to be run as a monopoly). What’s really sad is that Israel merely has to wait for the flood of plug-ins coming down the pike in the next 3 to 5 years to accomplish the same goals without having to do anything, except perhaps some subsidies, which they already have.
A link to the news story about Nissan’s all-electric U.S. car:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/business/13auto.html?sq=nissan%20electric%20car&st=nyt&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1210691145-nptJPmf7bphY2efmxBz7Ug
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/business/13auto.html?sq=nissan%20electric%20car&st=nyt&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1210691145-nptJPmf7bphY2efmxBz7Ug
A link to the story about the Nissan all-electric car for the U.S.
>> Did GM go series to avoid some Toyota IP ?
It boils down to neither TWO-MODE nor BAS being able to compete directly (both efficiency & emissions) with Toyota’s or Ford’s hybrid systems for vehicles of the 4-cylinder midsize midprice category.
With a well-balanced configuration (certainly not decided upon yet), a series hybrid could fill that void.
nasaman:
Am I correct in saying that the reason the Gm Volt is not just being thrown out in the market place, is because this is to be a complete
auto with A/C, heat and a top speed of 95mph. They are trying to manufacture an auto as close to what we are presently driving as possible. I had an electric auto called the CitICar which was built in central Florida in the 70’s. It was very crude and left a lot to be desired. It seems that many auto manufactures are just trying to beat the GM VOLT time line with a product that won’t quite match up to the VOLT.
Tom
So Kent, I take it you don’t like the idea that much.
I think it’s a worthy endeavor and will provide much new data. Besides, hybrids are just the short-term solution. BEV will, as you suggested, take over eventually. If EEStor devices work and If they can then make enough of them for the price to come down and If… You get the point. He is using proven technology and I think he has a well thought out plan and the money to back it up. Besides, gas at $8.00 to start and the concept of the price getting cheaper and the air getting cleaner (they are installing solar to make up the energy difference) is much better than “Let’s spin the wheel” forecasts that we are now getting for the future price of oil. Might get to $10 a gallon and beyond. Do we know? Nope. Having a few swap out stations will not hurt them at all. Good one, technologically ignorant citizens… Wrong. Maybe they dislike oil a bit more than the rest of us. I don’t know about you but I’m searching hard for a viable alternative. I hope to get some questions answered with their project. One way or another we need to get some friggen answers. Everyone is sitting around the table pointing at the other guy. No decisions. No movement. We have to wait three years for the plug-ins to come out and will probably not built one charging station for the entire waiting time. Unless of course panic in the market hits us like a bitch slap on a cold Saturday night. Go Project Better Place!
# 56 Darius
I don’t dispute your points about Volvo’s ReCharge commitment. My mention of the ReCharge was in response to a commenter who wondered if GM could lock out others from making an E-REV. The fact that Volvo is parading their ReCharge suggests that GM hasn’t shut them down.
Say what you like about Carlos Ghosn, he brought Nissan back from the brink of death. He changed Japanese corporate culture in ways previously unimaginable. Note that the NY Times story says that Nissan will show a profit of $4.1 billion this fiscal year.
Note also the quote from Mr. Ghosn in the Times article. “We would never have done this if the Israeli government was not encouraging it”, he said. “Whoever puts the most incentives on the table is going to get the technology first.”
Mr. Lutz:
In the words of the great Satchel Paige, “Don’t look back, something might be gaining on you.”
Oh yeah, I almost forgot:
“Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.”
61 Jeff M
As you say, the series hybrid and the EV concept is old technology. Radio (RF) is also old technology, yet myriads of patents are being issued today on various applications & implementations of RF technology (for cell phones, etc). My point is that GM has been involved longer in EVs than most, if not all, major car makers. For example, GM’s “Electrovair” (1966), “Electrovette” (1976) and “Impact” (1990) all preceded the EV-1. And since GM retains a large staff of patent attorneys who file a multitude of patents, it would be unthinkable for them NOT to have filed numerous patents on their latest E-REV & E-FLEX designs —technologies that they’re literally betting the company on!
It’s equally unthinkable (to me) that most of the world’s other major car makers haven’t realized the enormous technical advantages and potential market appeal of this technology! I believe that, as we speak, many major car makers are (or soon will be) talking to GM about licensing it —just as Ford now licenses Toyota’s parallel hybrid system for their Escape & Mariner hybrids.
65 TOM M
I agree —GM isn’t rushing to market with the Volt because they ARE, as I just said above, betting the company on it. The Volt will be judged very critically –if the electric power steering doesn’t have excellent road feel, if the car’s overall handing isn’t up to that of the BMW 3 series, if its A/C doesn’t “freeze you butt off”, etc, etc —automotive writers everywhere will jump on the chance to say so!
Jim I, #29. I thought the same thing. It would make me a bit paranoid.
noel #68: That reminds me that we have not heard much from the big guys at GM lately, especially Maximum Bob. Why get quiet now??
nasman
#70: I should think that the other manufacturers would want to see if the new GM E-Flex system really works before they start licensing talks…..
#71: They have to get it right, but they also have to be first, or they lose all the thunder!!!!
Gm doesn’t need to rush, and really can’t afford to.
The Volt has to be “spot on” when it hits the market.
If I have one concern, it would be this. If any other EV maker hits the market before 2010, I hope they don’t screw it up so badly that it will turn off the general population to the Volt.
If you really want electric vehicles delivered to market quickly, you just rip the powerplant out of one of your existing vehicles and put in an electric motor and batteries. That’s what Ford did with their ranger, Toyota did with the Rav4, and Mistubishi is doing with the iMiev (which already existed as a Smart-style gas car). It’s a myth that electric cars need to look like the EV1 or Aptera to be viable. That was true with lead acid but not with lithium.
john1701a, #64:
>>It boils down to neither TWO-MODE nor BAS being able to compete directly (both efficiency & emissions) with Toyota’s or Ford’s hybrid systems for vehicles of the 4-cylinder midsize midprice category.
——————————————-
You’re certainly right abour BAS, but I think it remains to be seen if two-mode can compete with HSD in smaller cars. GM is probably going to put it in smaller vehicles soon, so we shall see.
I am not so sure I like the Project Better Place pricing plan. I have seen a lot of cell phone monthly bills that would stagger an elephant. I, for one, would have a hard time choosing this method. Of course, we don’t know exactly how it will work until they “flesh” it out. I suspect it will work differently in the USA than in Europe and Israel.
I can not blame Israel to want to get off oil. They have very little of it and they do not want to pay for oil from the countries that want to exterminate them. I don’t just mean take over their land area. I mean that want to kill every last one of them. I do not want to buy from them myself because I believe they want to do the same with us.
Rashiid Amul,
You are spot on ! We shall see what comes out and what their road ability is going to be. I know a few of our writers have said we don’t need A/C but we have already hit the 100 dagree mark and it is almost impossible being stuck in traffic at those tempatures with out air.Our highway system is geared for 65 mph to 80 mph, so a 45 mph car will not cut it. I am as anxious as the next person for this VOLT, but it has to be right or GM will be in deep do do.
Tom
#77 N Riley:
Whether they ever develop the ability to kill every last one of us is probably unlikely, but they sure have the potential to drive us to the wall economically. In fact they are doing a pretty good job of it right now.
Did you see that oil went up $2/barrel today on the RUMOR that Iran might restrict production? Gee, I wonder who started the RUMOR?
noel park
It does not take much “news” to cause a spike in oil prices. I think the traders in London and New York have teams of people combing the media sources looking for “excuses” to raise the price of crude.
OPEC sets production goals. London and New York traders sets crude oil prices.
I gm’s tahoe two mode hybrid system get’s the same miieage as toyota hsd four cylinder camry.
>> GM is probably going to put it in smaller vehicles soon, so we shall see.
It was already clearly stated that would not happen. And that makes sense, Two-Mode is overkill (in several respects) for a 4-cylinder vehicle.
Speedy
I saw a advertisement for the Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid where mileage was stated as 20 city and 22 highway. Not a great improvement over a non-hybrid that is probably 16/18. But an improvement just the same.
“I saw an advertisement…”
N. Riley. #83. I have to be honest. A 4 mile per gallon increase just doesn’t make me jump out of my skin with excitement. Maybe it’s me, but I just don’t see a 4 mpg increase as an increase. It just seems so lame. Actually, I don’t see the point of producing it.
You’re right. Not much of an improvement.
Gm’s ” BAS Plus Mild Hybrid System” will have a lithium- ion battery, a New Hydramatic Automatic and HCCI System to improve fuel econmy(city/highway), to be use and will use in small cars. And these “Saturn Vue Two Mode plug in Hybrid system will use lithium-ion, which will come later on this year.
Rashiid & Speedy
I guess GM, and the other truck manufacturers, have to start somewhere. It is not much, I agree. I would not pay the cost difference for those few miles per gallon. But every gallon saved is money saved and less CO2. Think of all the large trucks/SUV vehicles you see being used by government agencies from local through the federal government. Many times i see these vehicles sitting with engines idling. The people who drive them don’t care what it cost - its not coming out of their pocket. Maybe with these hybrids, they can’t sit and idle. (We can hope.)
All I can say is, I want GM to be very successful with the Volt and move it out to the food chain of their other vehicle lines.
“every gallon saved is money saved and less CO2.”
Well, we know Lutz doesn’t give a damn about how much CO2 gets put into the atmosphere.
I do not believe that, ug.
He doesn’t buy into the man made global warming idea. Reported here on this sight awhile back. I don’t either… well technically I do. CO2 is a green house gas but not a very effective one and doesn’t account for very much of the warming that has been going on since before the industrial revolution.
#87 N. Riley says, “All I can say is, I want GM to be very successful with the Volt and move it out to the food chain of their other vehicle lines.”
Now that I will agree with 100 percent. I believe this technology should be in every single vehicle that GM makes. But I want it to make a significant difference in gas mileage.
I’m not going to get involved in the global warming discussion.
I don’t care why the temperature is rising. I just know it is.
Should we start debating global warming?
…ug and omegaman66 put it out there
The funny thing is there has been a report published in Nature of a fifteen year lull in global warming to occur.
Something to do with ocean currents. It may be only northern hemisphere of course.
That should make the global warming arguments more intense. lol
Reducing dependancy on oil is a safer position to argue.
Some talk about the two mode trans as being limited. I say, the two mode trans has potential that people don’t realize yet. This trans could be used in small luxury cars (luxury because now the price of it is too steep) and with a better battery it could go long distances just on battery power. This could increase the gas mileage by a large amount. Watch, you will see much more coming from the two mode trans.
These E Flex Plug In Drive System will be on alot of Gm’s models. if not all. And gm’s Two Mode Hybrid works very well.
Denmark has a history of making really, really dumb decisions. They have managed to errect more windmills than any place on earth, yet their carbon emissions remain the worst in Europe. Now they are trying to burn biofuels in their coal plants, something they should have done first rather than throw away those enormous sums on impractical wind power, running up huge deficits. Their logic in claiming that they will use their wind power to recharge those EVs is actually backwards - they are using the extra demand for nighttime electricity from EVs to help find something that can absorb those wind generated currents, which depressingly seem to occur almost exactly when nobody wants them. They are desperate people, much like the Israelis.
Don’t wait a minute longer than you have to GM. 2009 would be that much better than 2010. Build the car. You not only have to be best but you have to be first. TED
An offshoot: I live in NC and today I was driving on Interstate 40, the main East-West road. I was going pretty fast in my truck. Then I was passed by a Toyota Prius going considerably faster. It had a non-standard color for a Prius, and a small label on the back “Duke Energy Plug-In Vehicle”. So they (Duke Energy, the electric power company) are thinking about something, and they are using a Prius to sell it or test it or do whatever it is they are up to.
Dear Kent #97,
I do not know from which source you have got this impression of Denmark.
Just see this report from the Centre for European Reform from january 2008 :
Source : http://www.amblondon.um.dk/en/menu/TheEmbassy/News/DenmarksstrongeconomicperformanceisthetalkoftheEU.htm
“The CEF report observes: “The combination of high growth, high employment and relatively high social responsibility has created such interest in Denmark by other EU lands, that the whole of Europe is talking about how the Danish model can be copied.” One of the particular charms of the Danish model is that it manages to combine a well-developed welfare society with robust economic progress.
At a press conference accompanying the publication of the report, EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso expressed broad agreement with the analysis which puts Denmark in pole position for creating jobs and economic growth. Although not necessarily convinced that Denmark has all the answers, for example when comparing the levels of youth unemployment between Denmark and France*, he does say that the Danish model “certainly enables us to ask the right questions”.
Take care.
JC
I know I tend to get off the subject of the Volt, sometimes. But, let’s try to keep on subject for a change. It is one we all can agree on.
RB
Duke Energy is testing plug-in Prius cars. I remember reading about it. It is a program they are developing. And that subject is not an off shoot of the Volt discussion, since what happens to the Prius market greatly affects the Volt. Why don’t you try to find more about it.
I love NC. Especially Newport. I have some good friends living there. I love to visit Newport and Atlantic Beach.
More on the ecological footprint of Denmark
Who’s happiest: Denmark or Vanuatu?
See http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1414/
and please read until the end and … after that remind that the best is to get rid of oil as soon as possible;
TED #98: You rook the words right out of my mouth.
No, Really. Read the last line of my post #73…..
Very interesting.
I’m rooting for you GM.
We have a 1500 and a 3500 pickup which we need for our business. Thank goodness I got rid of my Suburban some time ago.
They have 36 gallon tanks, which are pretty standard for recent Chevy pickups. Every time we fill one up now, it costs $125+.
In the face of that, the sales of large pickups and SUVs for every day personal use are clearly doomed. GM may even still believe that they can game CAFE with the Volt to allow more profitable sales of the above. Actually I give them more credit than that, but maybe that’s too generous. If they do, they are terribly wrong, IMHO.
I think that CAFE will become irrelevant. Anyone who cannot exceed it substantially by the deadline will be cast aside by the marketplace.
The open question is whether GM can ramp up production of Volt like products in time to save themselves from the 10 year head start they have given to Toyota, Honda, et al. The competition is going to be fiercer than ever IMHO. Just look at this Nissan intitiative, never mind the Mitsu.
Fuel economy clear across the fleet is going to have to improve to meet or beat the competition. Even 100,000 Volts are not going to solve the problem alone. It’s a big and existential order.
What a waste. Pure EVs will fail. Renault / Nissan should have spent their billion dollars on a plug-in / gas / E85 vehicle like the Volt.
Kent where do you get your information? Here’s the real story about Denmark and their wind power:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26wind.htm
We around the world should give Denmark a round a applause. You see Kent, someone has to be the pioneer. It’s very expensive at first but then you become the leader of technology. Denmark is kicking butt right now. A good friend of mine is from Denmark and he, rightly so, is extremely proud of his country and mostly laughs at the crazy funny things Bush and his buddies do, like the rest of the world.
Maybe America can be a leader in getting off of Oil. Do we really have a choice seeing that we use around 25% of the world’s production? I know it will be expensive compared to mother’s milk but it moves us in the right direction and not only helps the world by bringing it new technologies but we can become the leader of this new green economy. Let’s get going folks!
NY Times:
“On Sunday night, Toyota, the world’s largest producer of hybrid-electric vehicles, announced it would produce a plug-in hybrid vehicle equipped with a lithium-ion battery by 2010, for sale first to big commercial customers like corporations and government fleets.”
““Yesterday, I said by 2010 we will introduce plug-ins, but before that is my desire,” Mr. Watanabe said.”
kent,
Project Better Place is only intended for “islands” such as Israel and other very small countries with huge penalties in place for operation of gasoline vehicles. It really doesn’t make any sense (with current battery technology) to do it anywhere else - and Agossi clearly states it .
Here is a link to few more details on Nissan’s BEV. I wish GM comes out with a the best product and need not be the first. Nissan’s boss, Carols Ghosn’s confidence and launch date shows he must have been at it for quite some time though he has admitted that he is yet to decide on the battery pack
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9942980-1.html?tag=nl.e404
EVs are grrrrreat, but I’m afraid that once they become popular, it won’t be long before the local/state/federal governments realize what a CASH COW the utility companies can be, just watch those electricity rates go up…up…and up. No government will be able to resist, mark my words.
#115 I.B. Waste
But therein lies the opportunity to use alternative methods of generating your own power. You can save up to install solar panels on your garage roof. Better yet, when the flexible solar plastic strips come out you will be able to afford to do your house roof too. You could install a small wind turbine in your yard. They’re blades are only six feet across. There are options to not incur additional taxes from the government when it begins to tax power companies more. You can produce your own power but you can’t refine your own oil and produce your own gasoline. That’s the beauty of electric vehicles……options, many of them.
#1 Jason
“every major automaker introducing EV’s for the 2010 model year?”
Umm, every? What are GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda doing for EVs in 2010? And Volt isn’t an EV. It’s a PHEV.
So now Nissan and Renault are getting into the EV game. Very cool indeed. There will still be plenty of room in the pool for them to swim with cityZENN, ZAP-X, Phoenix SUT and SUV, Think and hopefully Tesla Whitestar.
But, ya know, the range is only 125 miles per charge. About the same as the “failed” EV1 and RAV4-EV. Hmmmmm. Might be best to just scrap the whole thing now and put the idea in the crusher. Far better to build a Hummer alternative. Maybe 6 wheel drive and a 9 litre engine.
#114 Vinayababu:
Thanks for the cool link. Electric Cube? Oh, oh!
Just to follow up as well on #1
“every major automaker introducing EV’s for the 2010 model year?”
Only Mitsu will be to market for the ‘2010 model year, no one else is even close.
The Volt will be at best a 2011. Any car produced after September 1st, 2010 is a ‘2011′….and if the Volt is even a few months late, pushing production into 2011 (which is more than likely)… it will be badged a ‘2012′ All ‘new model’ cars introduced in a calender year are badged with the next years date.
So by my calculations that leaves about 20ish months to get a EV on the road before it is labelled 2011.
…but I still get you point.
you never mention the city think all electric made in Norway.Goes 180 klms .This is far enough for me.Why does no one ever mention it has been around for some time already.Another idea is to require car manufactureres to produce cars to run on LPg or CNG .instead of having to convert.NOt 100% but to start just about 2% per year.It was a good idea when done years ago in australia.
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/rav4ev/index.html
One could always harp on Toyota to revive the RAV4 EV.
@ #121
We don’t want, or I don’t want a glorified golf cart. Some people use the term “clown car” to describe these vehicles. Yes, they are great commuters, but people with families do not want these vehicles….at least in the U.S.
I think you may be right about the 125 mile range on the nissan, it is being engineered for driving range, not recharge cycles. Hence the weird battery lease / car ownership arrangement. The Volt may very well get far in excess of 40 miles per charge when it is new, and by the time it needs a new pack, batteries will have progressed even further in terms of charge density and service cycles. I don’t see why you couldn’t add on a couple of cheap deep cycle batteries yourself if you wanted to. Or if you were worried about running out of juice, keep a few spares in the trunk, maybe add a marine battery switch if you were real handy and another bank of batteries in the trunk.
Maybe I’m a little more adventurous than some, but I couldn’t live with 40 or even 80 miles per charge.
Everyone’s situation is different. A 40 mile EV mode PHEV, even up to only 35 MPH, would suit me for 99% of driving. Last trip I took over a 100 miles was probably 2 years ago. Last trip of over 300 miles was 5 years ago.
A 125 mile EV. I can do that.