More good news for our European friends, GM CEO Rick Wagoner gave out some more details about the Opel E-Flex program.
For one thing, he seemed to acknowledge a shift in plans, noting the Opel Flextreme would go on to production and interestingly have even more interior room than the initial concept.
Also he told reporters there would be other Opel E-Flex models as well.
He confirmed development was taking place in Michigan, but added that the cars would be built in Germany.
For our community in the states, keep in mind that what is done for Opel may be done for Saturn, indeed GM has already revealed the Saturn Flextreme concept.
Looks like the E-Flex portfolio beyond the Volt is beginning to take shape. Not a minute too soon considering the recent precipitous drop in SUV and truck sales reflecting higher gas prices.
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May 7th, 2008 (6:45 am)I predict GM never produces a car like that picture!
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May 7th, 2008 (6:59 am)Just curious but didn’t they already announce over 4 billion invested in 4 Europeon plants for Opel/Astra/E-flex over a year ago? Around the same time they said Volt 2 would be built in Europe? Which was just after they said initial (state side) run would be “much lower”
Germany being the main hub, but also plants in Poland, Sweden and England.
I would assume many concepts would be ‘put into production’ with a project this great in magnitude.
Aside: I think we all know this ‘Opel Flextreme’ will look nothing at all like this by the time it hits the road…and will get a name change.
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May 7th, 2008 (7:15 am)Only 10K Volts scheduled for the first year’s production, but multiple Opel E-Flex models in the pipeline?
Shouldn’t there be talk of other US E-Flex models as well, other than the concepts already shown (Caddy and Saturn, which is a rebadged Opel)?
I don’t get these guys with their “announcements”………….
Are they really this lax about things, or do they really not know, and just make it up as they go along????
You would think that they would have their plans in place, and everyone would be on the same page!
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May 7th, 2008 (7:17 am)Excellent, a Saturn concept may be revealed right around the corner. That may make the “under $30,000 people” happy. I still think these models should be offered in various electric ranges and even a pure all-electric. Award the loser of the battery pack competition the BEV contract and watch them run.
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May 7th, 2008 (7:21 am)#2 says, “Shouldn’t there be talk of other US E-Flex models as well, other than the concepts already shown (Caddy and Saturn, which is a rebadged Opel)?”
Thanks Jim. That was the first thing that crossed my mind.
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May 7th, 2008 (7:22 am)Statik #1…..and they’re not producing our pictured Volt concept either.
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May 7th, 2008 (7:25 am)Now there is an Opel I’d buy on looks alone…
Wouldn’t that make a great looking Rally vehicle?
I can picture it now,
Going sideways through the Welsh country side or perhaps airborne in the 1000 lakes Rally….
Mmmmmmmmm.
Huh? oh! the phone is ringing… Back to reality…
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May 7th, 2008 (7:34 am)That’s the one I want.
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May 7th, 2008 (7:46 am)4 Dave B…..
“Excellent, a Saturn concept may be revealed right around the corner…..”
Saturn has already revealed essentially the same concept as the Opel Flextreme —on http://www.saturn.com and they displayed it at the NY Auto Show this March— the only noticeable difference is the Saturn badging.
I heartily endorse GM productizing the Flextreme! Remember that the labor pool of engineers/designers available to Opel includes those at BMW & Mercedes, who have designed & built some of the world’s finest auromobiles for decades. In fact, I see the Opel Antara (the newest Saturn Vue) as largely a clone of the incredible BMW X5 (at 1/2 to 1/3rd the X5’s price). I wouldn’t be surprised if the production Flextreme, with essentially the same drive train as the Volt, would sell for less than the Volt.
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May 7th, 2008 (7:54 am)Lyle — Wonderful news. However you got this, thanks. The GM level of commitment is growing as time passes, a very positive trend.
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May 7th, 2008 (8:10 am)It is good to see the line fleshed out to other car badges, but what we need here is the States is a Volt in the showroom that can be purchased and put on the streets to start saving fuel costs.
Come on GM! Get the lead out. If the mules are working to expectations, start production this fall and put the volt on sale right after the 1st of the year.
We need this vehicle. Follow is soon after with the Saturn version o the Opel. And keep the Opel’s styling. It looks really good. I wish the Volt could look as futuristic as possible to set it off from the other hum drum cars on the road.
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May 7th, 2008 (8:13 am)This is sorta related, as it shows you how pricing structures will be coming out of a Euro plant:
Toyota is upping US pricing, because of the dollar (and their fiscal report is out Thurs…probably getting ahead of the bad news):
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080507/japan_toyota_us_prices.html
Conversely, in Canada where the dollar is running wild (like Hulkamania in the 80s), Toyota has a whole page on the lower pricing:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080507/japan_toyota_us_prices.html
…something tells me there won’t be a ‘Toyota Higher Price Philosophy’ page on the US website.
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May 7th, 2008 (8:15 am)It seems that these E-flex platform vehicles are starting to take the cross-over shape of the Aztek / Rendevous.
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May 7th, 2008 (8:17 am)Goldman Sachs predicted $ 200 oil yesterday by 2010 . Engineers are probably tripping over each other to get Flextreme integrated and anounced across entire line . ( at least I hope so )
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May 7th, 2008 (8:17 am)Sorry —in my post #9 I said the Saturn Flextreme had been announced at saturn.com —it’s no longer there (who knows, dealers might have complained because they don’t want buyers waiting for years to buy a car). Here’s a full description of the Saturn version of the gorgeous Flextreme design…
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/14/embargo-1-14-12-01am-est-detroit-2008-saturn-flextreme-e-flex/
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May 7th, 2008 (8:19 am)I hope they make that giant nose out of stamped carbon fiber to protect the car during parallel parking.
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May 7th, 2008 (8:46 am)Is today the day we get pictures of Mr. Lutz driving the prototype Volt? I expect it will not look a lot like the Opel pictured above. But I can dream.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:10 am)#13 nasaman
That site sure had some great pictures of the Saturn concept. It is worth the time to take a look. I really liked the looks of the Opel/Saturn. The Saturn will give the Volt stiff competition.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:15 am)Does anyone else experience number anxiety? When I typed the above #13 nasaman, his post was #13. But after I pressed enter, it seems the numbers were different.
What is going on? Or am I wrong.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:20 am)If the above picture is what the Opel Flexstreme is going to look like, I think they ought to re-design the front end/headlights. The front end design may make it look unique, but I personally don’t think it’s necessary. If they want to make the Flexstreme look modern, they should be more subtle about it.
If the front end is “the face of the car”, I think it ought to look somewhat conventional, yet still modern looking. The headlights should look like eyes to me and they ought to be put in conventional locations. For the Flexstreme, they ought to keep that “cats eyes” look and get rid of the other part. Not so extreme looking that it looks cheesy though. Mainstream yet still modern looking styling is better. The concept Flexstreme headlights (above) look like two Australian boomerangs on the front end or something. That’s a bit TOO stylish and unique looking.
http://z.about.com/d/cats/1/7/E/q/2/eyesjaspurr.jpg
http://i1.treknature.com/photos/39/imgp2936c.jpg
http://www.kaleidoscopeiow.co.uk/Boomerangs/boomerangLeft.jpg
I think the current Cadillacs (like the CTS) might be even more popular if they didn’t have the squarish looking, vertical headlights. It kind of reminds me of putting eyeglasses on a good looking woman. It doesn’t always look too good.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:21 am)# 11 N Riley
I think its been reported multiple times how GM is already ramping up their Quality Assurance processes at unprecedented speed for a new model with the Volt, let’s not turn this board into a cliche unless they fail on the Nov 2010 timeline. I don’t think you or I are qualified to tell them at this point how to cut corners. We’re talking a year and a half, that’s a short time anyhow. I want this car safe
Just accept for now the $4 a gallon every time you stand at the pump, experience your righteous indignation at Oil company collusion, and realize the Volt will be the right decision.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:24 am)Saturn or a Volt…interesting choices….But are they ready now or in 2010 ? … 2011 ? …2012 ? Now would be a really good time for GM to roll out the Volt .. The pre production vehicle should be ready (if not being driven as we speak).. It is also entirely possible that GM has the Production Plant aready geared up and ready to build the Volt by now.. a lot of the parts (less the power train, batteries and body panels) are “off the shelf” parts (with a small design change to fit the Volt). I signed up in the first 500… have deposit in hand…. Black Volt with all the options please…And note that, with escalating price of gas right now… I may not wait for the Volt as there are other options out there RIGHT NOW..
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May 7th, 2008 (9:29 am)If the above picture is what the Opel Flexstreme is going to look like, I think they ought to re-design the front end/headlights. The front end design may make it look unique, but I personally don’t think it’s necessary. If they want to make the Flexstreme look modern, they should be more subtle about it.
If the front end is “the face of the car”, I think it ought to look somewhat conventional, yet still modern looking. The headlights should look like eyes to me and they ought to be put in conventional locations. For the Flexstreme, they ought to keep that “cats eyes” look and get rid of the other part. Not so extreme looking that it looks cheesy though. Mainstream yet still modern looking styling is better. The concept Flexstreme headlights (above) look like two Australian boomerangs on the front end or something. That’s a bit TOO stylish and unique looking.
http://i1.treknature.com/photos/39/imgp2936c.jpg
http://www.kaleidoscopeiow.co.uk/Boomerangs/boomerangLeft.jpg
I think the current Cadillacs (like the CTS) might be even more popular if they didn’t have the squarish looking, vertical headlights. It kind of reminds me of putting eyeglasses on a good looking woman. It doesn’t always look too good.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:35 am)Nasaman # 15, The work “gorgeous” is an understatement. And this comes from someone not into SUVs.
N. Riley, #19. I have noticed that the numbers change when someone types a comment that goes into moderation and then comes out. When it comes out, it doesn’t go to the end. It gets inserted in the same spot that it would be been had it not gone to moderation. When it comes out, all the numbers after that get bumped. I hope this explanation is understandable.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:45 am)Rashiid
Thanks. That does explain it.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:50 am)2Snowboard
If the Volt is due in November 2010, that is 2.5 years, not 1.5. I don’t want GM to cut any corners. I want a good car, but it seems there is room to speed things up. I will bet that there will be others on the market by spring of 2010 that will offer the power train we expect from the Volt. That is going to take a lot of the wind out of the Volt and lose sales that GM needs.
We don’t really know what GM is planning in private. The November 2010 was a public announced date to shoot for. I hope they are planning a much sooner release date.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:52 am)In Europe plug-ins with $10 a gallon are much more urgent. I wonder how come in USA gas is so cheep.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:55 am)23 Rashiid….
I agree! How about “DROP DEAD GORGEOUS?!?
24 GM Volt Fan….
Sorry, I have to disagree! First, cars seem to look more & more alike as time goes by & I believe most people appreciate more distinctive yet tasteful styling like this. Second, boomerangs are simple flying “wings” & the shape suggests good aerodynamics to me. Finally, I see the integration of headlights, running lights, turn signals, fog lights, etc into this single distinctive cluster as a stroke of styling genius!
For several excellent high-resolution photos & graphics of this incredible, drop-dead gorgeous concept car (OK, Rashiid?) check out….
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/detroit-2008-saturn-flextreme-concept/
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May 7th, 2008 (9:56 am)Darius
Everything is relative. I don’t know why gas is more expensive in Europe, but I suspect taxes have something to doe with it.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:56 am)doe should be do. Excuse the typing.
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May 7th, 2008 (10:03 am)Nasaman
You are correct in your assessment. The styling is great and Opel/Saturn should keep it. I get so tired of seeing the same design from the different car manufacturers. One comes out with a new look and in a year everyone of them are copying it. The Japanese companies are the worst copiers. They all copy Honda, it seems.
I want distinctive styling. Make a statement. Keep it functional and add beauty. Why doe we have to keep to the same old styling. Give us something that makes our hearts go “bang, bang” instead of “patter, patter”. Lets get the blood circulating when we look at our new electric cars.
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May 7th, 2008 (10:04 am)Theres that “doe” for do again. Sorry….
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May 7th, 2008 (10:08 am)Nasaman says, “First, cars seem to look more & more alike as time goes by & I believe most people appreciate more distinctive yet tasteful styling like this.”
Once again, I agree. I really really agree. Cars today look so similar to each other, they just blend in. I hate that. It seems to me the designers forgot how to design and forgot how to be creative. So they just copy each other and make minor changes.
The concept Volt sticks out. Is one of a kind with nothing else looking the same. That is part of what I find attractive about it. Well, that and it looks cool. The Prius can be picked out in a crowd too. No other car looks like it either. But I don’t find it to be cool looking. But it is distinctive.
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May 7th, 2008 (10:09 am)Gosh N. Riley, #30. As I was typing, you were posting. We think alike apparently.
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May 7th, 2008 (10:14 am)#15 nasaman,
Thanks for the link. I agree the flextreme looks very cool. The only thing I don’t like is the diesel engine. Diesels put out nano particle sized, well, particles that float through the skin and can lodge in lungs and other organs. May be nothing, but I don’t like it.
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May 7th, 2008 (10:23 am)It seems to make sense for GM to introduce the E-Flex architecture on an Opel-branded vehicle, since the Opel is more of a European-recognized brand than a Chevrolet is… at least from what I’ve seen when I’ve visited Europe. The enviro-halo effect would help the Opel brand there immensely, as the Prius helped Toyota sell more fuel-thirsty vehicles since it implies to “mis-informed” consumers all of Toyota’s vehicles are the most fuel-efficent in their class.
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May 7th, 2008 (10:26 am)George K
Today’s diesels that are being introduced are much cleaner than what we have on the streets now. Diesels will be a big player in the future, if people accept them. Diesel is costly now, but we know the oil industry is sticking it to the diesel owners because they represent a much smaller percentage of the population and the oil companies can use the excise that it much more expensive to produce Ultra Low Diesel. Well, it is more expensive, but they spread the true cost over many years but charge the consumers as though they were trying to recover the cost now.
I work for an oil company. We buy and resale fuels. We don’t gouge, but we certainly see the price jump up every time some little thing happens in the world. The oil companies, pipeline suppliers and large distributors will use every excuse to pump up the price, but will not go back down when the “world shaking event” settles down.
I say let’s hurry the day when we can stick it to them.
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May 7th, 2008 (10:33 am)Hi every one,
I may just take the time to comment a little : for those of you who read German here is the press announcement (dated april 30th) in Germany of big investments by Opel/GM in Germany : to summarize 9 billions of € until 2012 from which 6.5 billions for the development of 20 new models and powertrain systems including the E-Flex system with extended electric only range.
Source : http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59486/1182732/adam_opel_gmbh/rss
And thre is a close ressemblance between the Opel flextreme and the Opel Meriva concept (close it seems to the final production model) which may be seen here :
http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59486/1144268/adam_opel_gmbh/
My Opel dealer said me ten days ago that I have to wait two years to get my electric Opel, ….
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May 7th, 2008 (10:52 am)Ok I found the same press release in English, here :
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=81&docid=45422
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May 7th, 2008 (10:54 am)I wonder how that pictured Opel would do in the wind tunnel. It looks like a concept Volt mated with a Prius. It somewhat mimics the musularity of the concept Volt with its wide-set wheels and broad, flat nose. But it has Prius’s compactness and suppository-shaped hood/roofline/hatch.
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May 7th, 2008 (11:07 am)Jean-Charles
Thanks for the input. Keep us informed about happenings on the continent. Could you answer the questions as to why gasoline and diesel is so much more expensive in Europe than in the USA?
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May 7th, 2008 (11:27 am)N. Riley #40
The difference in fuels prices between the US and Western Europe is explained by the very high tax level on those fuels.
For instance in Belgium today the whole set of taxes on diesel represents 56% of its price at the pump and it is 67% for unleaded gas.
All the Economy Ministries give such numbers in France and Germany those percentages are a little higher than in Belgium.
Hope that helps.
JC
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May 7th, 2008 (11:36 am)I typed up a long response to respons to why gas is so expensive in Europe, but it either went to moderation, or into the void somewhere.
Here is a link that will show the reasons. Look for the xls link to Prices without taxes. You will see that the worldwide price for gas are very similar…
http://goeurope.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=goeurope&cdn=travel&tm=33&gps=377_334_1020_592&f=10&su=p531.49.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html%23Motor
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May 7th, 2008 (11:39 am)Jean-Charles
It does help to confirm what I thought was the root cause. We are paying about 5% federal taxes and a little more state tax per gallon. I had thought the Europeans were taxed much more for everything than we are in the USA. But, give the Democrats a little time and they will solve that problem. They keep saying that we should be more like the Europeans. Don’t get me wrong. I think Europe is a great place and I would love to visit sometime. But, visit is all.
I don’t want the high tax “nanny” state that I see in most European countries. But, I guess if you are used to it, it is normal to you. The word “you” does not mean you (Jean-Charles) but people in general.
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May 7th, 2008 (11:40 am)#36 N Riley,
Appreciate the info. Do you know anything about the diesel exhaust nano particles? Would it be an issue in the new “clean diesel” engines?
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May 7th, 2008 (11:40 am)I have a link that shows the differences between the retail and cost prices for gas in the USA and Europe, but this site will not let me post it.
It is all because of imposed taxes to curb consumption.
The cost prices are all about the same.
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May 7th, 2008 (11:45 am)Seems funny to me that lots of cars now are getting this tear drop shape, but the better aerodynamic shape would be if the car was going backwards.
I would love a mini-van type car with the shape of the Dymaxion by Buckminster Fuller in the 40s. You know, one that actually has good aerodynamics, as opposed to one that looks like it has aerodynamics.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:00 pm)#1
LOL
yeah. The boomerang headlights might be a wee bit expensive too.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:02 pm)N. Riley #42
Thanks.
Tthat’s a matter of appreciation, for instance health services, higher education and a lot of services a far cheaper here than in the US; The studies I made a long time ago in California at that time (end of 70’s) where so expensive that I had to get a year of saving on my fist wage and a grant to be able to study in the US. But you are right the general cost of living was on average less expensive in the US.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:03 pm)Speaking about taking the time to get the component level testing done, I see where Phoenix Motors who is supposed to sell SUT all electric pickup trucks to fleet buyers this year, using 35 KWH of Altairnano batteries, just signed a contract with another Lithium Ion battery maker. I have no info but it seem likely the first batch of batteries has a problem. And so… it looks like the guys that wanted a limited first run for the Volt may be right, and we should just chill out.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:04 pm)George K
I do not have the infor about nano particles, but I read somewhere about the blue-tec engines coming out were very clean compared to current diiesel engines. These engines are designed to meet California’s upcoming air quality standards, which current diesels will not be able to do, I believe.
MikeG
i like the design. The teardrop allows the car to slice through the air and push it gently aside. Instead of the brute force of current car and truck design.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:12 pm)Jean-Charles
Europe does offer many advantages, i am sure. Education is very expensive in the USA and you do not get your money’s worth. Educators are too busy building empires and spending the public’s money on trips, fancy equipment, buildings and such. Less is paid to actual teacher salaries and the needs of the student.
We are all in need of better government that is more responsible to the citizens and less responsible to the “special Interest”.
But, back to the Volt/Opel/Saturn. The concept cars will allow us all to save money while at the same time conserving fuel. After all, we’ve got to make sure enough fuel is available to the SUV owners who will still be clogging the roads.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:15 pm)45 Mike G….
It might intuitively seem that, as you say, “the better aerodynamic shape would be if (a teardrop-shaped) car was going backwards.”
Not so……
Automotive aerodynamics is very complicated by contrast to free-air aerodynamics because of ground effects, etc. However, it’s fairly safe to say that, in general, a teardrop shape (airfoil) with the LARGE end of the teardrop heading into the air flow, not the other way around, will have much lower drag. See the illustrations at this NASA site…..
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/shaped.html
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May 7th, 2008 (12:18 pm)PS: Fuller’s Dymaxion actually was teardrop shaped, with its large end facing forward.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:30 pm)I think everyone has to face the high probability that there will be shortages and rationing of gasoline long before there will be mass production of electric vehicles.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:47 pm)I’d like to see GM make the headlights for the Opel Flexstreme look similar to the 2008 Corvette or the Ferrari F430. I like those oval “cat eyed” shapes. Very polished and aerodynamic looking.
http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/07images/autos/gm/corvette/2008corvette-front-hires.jpg
http://ferrari-f430.bootnetworks.com/ferrari_modena_pictures/ferrari_modena.jpg
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May 7th, 2008 (12:47 pm)nasama
What if the airfoil and prism was turned around with the sharper end slicing through the air? Would that not have less resistance to wind?
It seems the Opel has the smaller (or sharper) end facing forward and therefor should have less drag. Surely no one is suggesting we turn the Opel around and use the rear end to face forward.
ug
I don’t think it will come to that. Brazil has made a very large oil find off their coast. Granted, that oil will not be available for several years, but I don’t see rationing anytime soon. Except self imposed rationing as the price climbs. That will increase supplies available and might (thats a big might) bring down the prices.
The main thing is to get the Volt and others in production as soon as possible when the pieces fit together properly. You will see a number of new cars within the next year that will help us all to conserve, if you are willing to buy them and forgo the Volt. That is what the other manufacturers are banking on and GM is betting against with their November 2010 roll out of a few thousand Volts. Personally, I believe GM will lose if they let the others in the door too soon.
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May 7th, 2008 (12:51 pm)# 52 nasaman
I visited your sight and came up with the conclusion that GM VOLT
is missing the boat, you need to be working for them.
Great Information, especially for a dummy like me.
Tom
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May 7th, 2008 (1:01 pm)55 N Riley…
You asked, “What if the airfoil and prism was turned around with the sharper end slicing through the air? Would that not have less resistance to wind?” NO!!! Take another careful look……
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/shaped.html
What’s confusing is that for automobiles, a teardrop front end and a “wedge” (raised) rear end is often the best overall design compromise. The raised rear end behaves like an inverted wing (as the new Nascar rules now require) to hold the car’s rear end down, improving handling. Cars without an adequate downward force at the rear drift around at high speeds due to under-body lift –due to what I mentioned above, “ground effects”.
(This a major reason the Volt’s rear end is so high — another more secondary reason is trunk space, of course.)
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May 7th, 2008 (1:10 pm)nasaman
Makes sense…
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May 7th, 2008 (1:20 pm)PS: For anyone caring to do so, look once again at this NASA site….
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/shaped.html
…..Here’s an intuitive explanation as to why the teardrop (airfoil) generally has the lowest drag — its smooth, rounded front edges quickly divert impinging air enough that air FOLLOWING the front surfaces is NOT IN CONTACT with most of the teardrop’s remaining surfaces. This reduces or eliminates FRICTION over most of its surface area, which reduces the teardrop’s overall drag compared to that of other shapes.
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May 7th, 2008 (1:25 pm)….therefore, the Opel/Saturn Flextreme should have EXTREMELY drag —lower than either the Prius or the Volt (if it’s drag is in the “mid-20’s”, as we’ve been told.
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May 7th, 2008 (1:26 pm)i.e., extremely LOW drag!
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May 7th, 2008 (1:58 pm)nasaman
So, the fact that the trailing surfaces do not contact the air that is being pushed away reduces drag. Low drag means the car glides through the air better with less effort. Kinda like us fat fellas. We have a tendency to push a lot of air, but I think create a lot of drag. Maybe that is why I get so tired after walking.
Boy, NASA can explain anything. Thanks nasaman. You are correct once again. Batting 1,000.
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May 7th, 2008 (2:15 pm)nasaman
So, the shape of the Aptera should have very little resistance ?
Tom
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May 7th, 2008 (2:18 pm)TOM M
It would seem so. I am not nasaman, but I am learning at his knee.
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May 7th, 2008 (2:36 pm)I just saw an artical on Yahoo.
Road & Track has a spy shot of the new Prius. If that’s what it is going to look like I’m glad I’m waiting for the VOLT
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May 7th, 2008 (2:44 pm)Re: next gen prius:
I think we’re all going to have to just get used to jelly bean cars with windshields that extend all the way out to the front bumpers and dashboards as long as an aircraft carrier.
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May 7th, 2008 (2:47 pm)Thanks Nasaman and N. Riley,
Interesting discussion.
Coming back to the basics of marketing : very often commentators on gm-volt.com drop a word about the advertising of the Volt in the US. I have never seen such an advertising in Western Europe.
Well today in my mailbox was the Opel Magazine (we get it three or four times a year) and guess what : a full half page (page 25) with the Opel Flextreme inside a special paper very serious on the LOHAS (Lifestyle of Health and Sustainability) movement .
And a conclusion on the need of such cars as the Opel Flextreme to meet the demands of people close to this “philosophy”.
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May 7th, 2008 (2:55 pm)Jean-Charles
I do not subscribe to that type of philosophy, but I do see the need of cars like the Opel Flextreme and the Chevrolet Volt. If given half a chance, people can go to the extremes with their philosophies. I heard there was now a movement on about “plant rights”. They are saying that plants have feelings also. Pretty soon you will not be able to drink water because of the organism in the water have rights and same for air. Just thing of the viruses you breath in each time. My gosh but human kind is running amock of laws of nature.
Just my soap box day, i guess. Whoops, I should have checked to be sure if I was going to hurt either the soap or the box by including them together with out considering their feelings.
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May 7th, 2008 (2:56 pm)think, not thing. Sorry again……
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May 7th, 2008 (3:15 pm)TOM M:
If you look on the Aptera site, you will see that the C/D on their vehicle is VERY low. The took off the side mirrors and even worked on the windshield wipers to do everything they could to reduce drag.
I just took a look, and they have changed the site around. I do not see the actual C/D number listed anymore…. So I did a google of Aptera Aerodynamic Specifications. I found a site that says the concept car had a C/D of 0.06!!!! Then I found another site that said the C/D of the production model is 0.11, which would still be very impressive.
Considering that the Volt is supposed to be 0.25 “ish”, that makes the Aptera a very sleek model.
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May 7th, 2008 (3:22 pm)And here are some pictures of that 2009 Prius:
http://jalopnik.com/cars/spy-photos/2009-toyota-prius-304255.php
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May 7th, 2008 (3:22 pm)Jim I
The Aptera is essentially an airplane on wheels. It looks good, but I am not sure I would want to drive it in “normal” rush hour traffic. I am just not sure if this isn’t going to the extreme. IMHO.
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May 7th, 2008 (3:29 pm)Lyle says it all when he mentions “the precipitous drop in SUV and truck sales.
At #11, N Riley says “…what we need here in the States is a Volt in the showroom that can be purchased and put on the streets to start saving fuel costs.” I could not agree more. All of this other stuff is just a dangerous distraction, IMHO.
N Riley also says “We need this vehicle.” Right again. I would humbly submit that the only ones who need this vehicle more than we do are GM and its dealers. Again, if they don’t get something in their showrooms to create some buzz and market demand, they are going to have a very difficult time surviving. Alas, the next 3 years look pretty bleak to me.
Of course GM has said that they have too many dealers. My sense is that that problem is just about to take care of itself.
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May 7th, 2008 (3:52 pm)Ug,
I think rationing will be for the poor countries and that is definitely not the United States.
Jean Charles press release was interesting because that is how I imagined a company such as GM would handle its announcements.
Is the press release system used in the US, or is it what appears to be, executives giving interviews on any subject? Or making announcements at shows.
I ask that question because interview style may explain the confusion over models and dates that occurs.
The Opel cars are built on the same Delta ll platform as the Volt and Astra I believe. Surely they have to end up looking a little alike, and I would bet they will not include Sedgeways as standard.
imho
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May 7th, 2008 (4:42 pm)Noel Park
How right you are. The problem will take care of itself, I believe. I also believe that GM will end up late to the party based on what the other companies are saying. Granted, the Volt will still be the car I really want, but it will very hard to turn down some of the cars that may appear first (and by several months or more).
I want GM to get to the dance early with the best date they can come up with. They let Toyota beat them to the tune of hundreds of thousands of Prius sales. By the time the Volt comes out, the Prius will have millions on the road.
I have said all along that I may buy a 2009 Prius, but it is strictly a get me by car to be passed on to my wife when the Volt is fully available. I want GM, and especially Chevrolet, to be successful. So come on GM.
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May 7th, 2008 (4:45 pm)bruce g
They do share the same frame, etc, but the body shell will be or may be quite different. I would think the Opel/Saturn may be more futuristic than the Volt (as the pictures have shown of the Opel concept). The Volt Concept was somewhat futuristic, but not nearly so. And it has been watered down more, I suspect.
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May 7th, 2008 (4:50 pm)Has anyone here read of the labor unrest (Strikes) with GM parts suppliers (eg axles)? It could be a huge roadblock to a timely release of the Volt?
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May 7th, 2008 (4:57 pm)#91 Jim I
Seeing how we are buds now, lol. I will comment.
As far as I can tell, it looks like a 2008 Prius with a bra on it? I don’t see any styling differences at all. Maybe it’s a mule?
It’s not ‘next gen’ for sure…how could it be, lol. Maybe they are just going to change the light assembly or front bumper for 2009? Which seems…stupid, why bother? …probably the next gen would be labelled a 2010 in the 2009 calender year?
Honestly…I have no clue on that at all.
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May 7th, 2008 (5:00 pm)#77 Tag
GM is ‘finding’ axles now. ie) offshore/Mexico production increases from AA.
The Mailbu plant is still in production and the Oshawa plant is suddenly not concerned about supply…just their September CAW vs GM labour dispute.
For Volt’s limited 10K run in 2011…I wouldn’t worry about it at all. If GM is still around, they will make sure their ‘bow tie’ show pony gets the love first.
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May 7th, 2008 (5:06 pm)Statik, That’s some comfort about the axles. The “IF” in the sentence, is not.
PS I have a radio on the way (the one you recommended).
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May 7th, 2008 (5:06 pm)2009 Prius is supposed to get even better milage than the current one (depending on who is bragging… anywhere from 50 – 70 MPG.. The new 08 Ford Escape hybrid has been quoted to get 50 MPG.and that is an SUV The Smart car (desiel) can get upto 80 MPG. .. I really am at the point where all electric would be great but
I will definetely need a new vehicle by Mid 2010.. (My 07 Maxx already has over 40K KMs in less than a year)
GM…. you will have to step up the pace as even more builders are coming out with their versions of an electric/hybrid… and if their prices are below the Estimated 30 – 40 K for the Volt… you will be getting a lot of deserters.. (especially if those “other guys” are kicking your milage claims by a big margin)
I like the idea of 40 miles on an initial charge and then….approximately 50 MPG after that…
But it just might not be good enough.
Like I said before….A Black Volt with all the options… I have deposit in hand… but it has to be here before 2011..
Let’s go GM..
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May 7th, 2008 (5:30 pm)Hmmm,GM does seem to be incremental in its design changes.
I dont know why, perhaps they would have to sack their stylists to get radical change.
I suspect the 2011 Opel “Volt Equivalent” may look a little like the 2009 Opel Astra.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/10798/2009-opel-holden-astra-spy-photos/
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May 7th, 2008 (6:07 pm)About those automotive aerodynamics; if a teardrop shape (airfoil) with the LARGE end of the teardrop heading into the air flow has very low drag, why aren’t formula 1 cars, or other speed machines, shaped like that?
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May 7th, 2008 (6:26 pm)This article describes the 2010 Astra and claims to show a spy photo of the 2010 model.
http://dikarockz.blogspot.com/2008/03/spied-2010-opel-astra.html
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May 7th, 2008 (6:58 pm)I wonder if this version will make NZ before the Volt.
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May 7th, 2008 (8:29 pm)@ThombDbhomb
because they have to keep the cars sticked to the asphalt. at high speeds not to fly around at the first turn. because the front bumper is very close to the road and also the sills but the rear bumper is more elevated, under the car is formed an vacuum effect which also helps the car to stay on the road.
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May 7th, 2008 (9:50 pm)#88 k2, regarding #85 ThombDbhomb……
You’re right, k2. I might add that in all the Formula 1 races I’ve seen, cornering at modestly high speeds seems to be more important than extremely high straight-away speeds. So aerodynamics are relatively much less important than handling thru corners & accelerating out of corners —hence the huge tires/wide track used on F1 cars.
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May 8th, 2008 (5:31 am)Oh boy now a whole crowd of Electric Vehicles. I wonder what the oil companies lead by dub-ya and his cabinet think.
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May 8th, 2008 (6:05 am)#15 Statik
“Toyota is upping US pricing, because of the dollar (and their fiscal report is out Thurs…probably getting ahead of the bad news)”
You are a bloody genious and everything you post is not only informative but 100 percent accurate! (No blue font for sarcasm available).
Today Toyota posted 28 percent drop in fourth quarter PROFIT. Worldwide sales stagnent. Blamed lower dollar on lower sales in NA for the decrease in this quarter. Forecasted to still increase total sales by 4%, but:
“that it expects (fiscal) sales to drop for the first time in nine years — and net profit to plunge 27 percent.”
“The pessimistic outlook for this year underlines how even Toyota — with its small cars reputed for good gas mileage — hasn’t emerged unscathed from the risks of a global slowdown, a U.S. credit crunch, volatile currency fluctuations and soaring material and energy costs.”
Source: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080508/earns_japan_toyota.html
If Toyota is showing chinks in the armor, it can’t bode well for the industry as a whole. More seriously it points to companies forced to up US prices, which is the nightmare scenario for the US in it’s current state…inflation.
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May 8th, 2008 (8:20 am)#53 nasaman
If that is the case, why don’t we see more airfoil shaped cars on the road?
#88 k2
What about funny cars and dragsters? They don’t worry about cornering.
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May 8th, 2008 (12:10 pm)Bruce g #84 and 86,
Thanks a lot for these spy pictures of the new Astra.
As you said so well I also “suspect the 2011 Opel “Volt Equivalent” may look (a little) like the 2009 Opel Astra”. Parentheses are mine.
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May 8th, 2008 (12:17 pm)#92 ThombDbhomb:
No, but they are worried about aero stability. They have had an alarming history of “blowing over” like a very fast powerboat. So, they are willing to trade drag for downforce as well. The downforce also keeps the tires pressed to the strip as they fight for traction Fuel economy is not an issue for them! Plus the rules have a lot to say about the configuration of the cars.
It is a delicate balancing act. F1 cars, for example, use much different aero packages at tracks with long straights – Spa or Monza for example, than they do at tight twisty track – Monte Carlo or Hungaroring. They sacrifice downforce for top speed on the longer straights, and top speed for downforce in the twisty corners.
Some say that a modern F1 car in high downforce configuration could be driven upside down across a ceiling at 140 mph or so. This will not be a consideration for the Volt!
Streamliners running for all out top speed at Bonneville assume much more of the shape described by nasaman, as drag trumps all of the other tradeoffs there.
The Volt will clearly involve difficult tradeoffs between drag and styling. There is also a tradeoff between drag and ride height, for example. Lower ride height = less drag. Alas, getting in and out of driveways and other such mundane considerations interfere. Unless you want to run hydraulics like an East LA lowrider! Or an early Citroen. Not a bad idea in the abstract, but very complicated and expensive. Maybe it could be an option, lol.
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May 8th, 2008 (6:01 pm)nasaman @ #61 said:
“Here’s an intuitive explanation as to why the teardrop (airfoil) generally has the lowest drag — its smooth, rounded front edges quickly divert impinging air enough that air FOLLOWING the front surfaces is NOT IN CONTACT with most of the teardrop’s remaining surfaces. This reduces or eliminates FRICTION over most of its surface area, which reduces the teardrop’s overall drag compared to that of other shapes.”
Actually the teardrop shape has the lowest drag coefficient because the air flowing over the trailing edges REMAINS IN CONTACT with the remaining surface. It’s the separation of air current at surface corners and projections that causes change from laminar air flow to turbulent eddy flow and increases resistance considerably.
George I @ #45
With the current generation diesel particulate filters in place I would suspect “nanoparticles” to be along the same order of magnitude or less than gasoline CO emissions.
Having said that, I read somewhere awhile back that a study comparing biodiesel with petroleum based diesel found that inhalation of the petrodiesel particulates caused necrosis of cellular structure, whereas no such effect was observed for biodiesel. I’m now constantly cognizant of this every time I happen to walk along the city bus route going to and from work.
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May 9th, 2008 (7:26 am)N Riley
Sorry not responding you in time. I think that in order to secure electric car development USA shall impose fuel tax or, at lease introduce some umbrella tax formula. The reason is that oil companies can easy kill electric cars with one year oil price reduction like it happened with ethanol cars in Brazil. If USA is committed to oil import reduction it shall take adequate measures.
On other hand one should understand that there is obvious electric car technology lockout because of very well established conventional car technology. Governments should support new developments for numerous of reasons.
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Jun 25th, 2008 (4:39 pm)try
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