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Gas and the Chevy Volt: Change Your Fuel, Not Your Oil

May 5th, 2008 | Posted in: Fuel, General

As we know, the Chevy Volt should be able to drive for 40 or more miles on pure electricity when fully charged. Since most drivers travel less than 40 miles per day, it is quite possible gas could sit in the tank without ever or hardly ever being burned. Indeed, GM engineers decided to downsize the tank from 12 gallons in the concept to some smaller amount perhaps around 7 gallons. We were also advised that the car could run without any fuel in the tank at all should the driver desire.

It is frequently asked then how the Volt might deal with gas sitting for too long in the tank and getting stale. I discussed this with Volt lead engineer Andrew Farah, who in fact confirmed the Volt team is thinking about this:

GM-Volt How can you deal with the gas getting stale if not used?

Farah: We have talked about it. Remember its (the tank) a complete sealed semi-pressurized system. What make gas go bad is some of the volatile evaporate as well as the absorption of water. The good stuff evaporates and the bad stuff condenses. The tank is special to prevent this, but will it be enough? We don’t know. Over the next couple of years were going to do some work to make sure we’ve got that understood. But we still like to say,’ maybe you will change your fuel rather than change your oil’.

There is also some debate about how big we should make the tank. During the discussion in New York (Volt Nation) some of your guys said maybe it should just be a gallon, they said “I’m always going to run on EV, I just need a little backup to get me to another gas station. This is something the customer can choose whether to put a gallon in or not.”

Farah also noted the tank will likely contain a specialized system for sensing water accumulation, and that perhaps a dashboard light might advise you if your gas has indeed finally gone bad.

Posted by: Lyle

140 Responses to “Gas and the Chevy Volt: Change Your Fuel, Not Your Oil”

Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

Would running on E85 prevent the stale gas problem?
Keaton Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

I don’t think this is a very big deal. I think I would keep maybe 2 or 3 gallons in the tank and run the ICE every once in a while just to keep everything lubricated and the gasoline circulated.
MarkH Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:08 pm

I think even die hard EV people are going to use the ICE every once and a while. There will be those days of extra driving when you will not be able to charge up. My guess is the average Volt user will only need to fill up every 3 to 4 months which will not cause the gas to go bad.

I am sure there will be those folks that never use the gas, but I know I have some days that my work has me running around town and not just commuting.
omegaman66 Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

I think that would make it worse but I am not sure. I know ethanol has a tendency to suck in more water out of the atmosphere than regular gas. A water separator like they have on boats might help with that.

For most I would think adding a little food stabilizer and/or running the gasoline engine periodically would be answer.

Only putting in small amounts of gas at a time for people that rarely drive 40+ miles would be one way of helping and occasionally not charging up would be another. The option to manually override the battery soc would also work.

The problem is not going to be a big one in my opinion. And for those people that will only use gas once or twice a year out of neccesity can get around the problem easy.

It might be a good idea (just thinking out loud) to have the ICE engine come on for a few miles once 30 or 60 days has gone by without it running. And have the ability to override that if you are a freak about never wanting to use any gasoline.
omegaman66 Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

Fuel stabilzer not food stabilizer…. geez
Vincent Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

http://www.goldeagle.com/sta-bil/
This should do the trick.
RandyB Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

I don’t think it would take a genius to keep just one gallon in a seven gallon tank while staying local, use that fuel up on a regular basis- before it causes a problem, and fill the tank prior to a trip in excess of the range of this vehicle. Don’t carry the unneeded weight, use the fuel instead of wasting it, keep the seven gallon capacity for when you go out of town.
Brandon Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:21 pm

Omegaman66 you must have been hungry while you were posting
LyleL Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

RandyB

… just one gallon in a seven gallon tank while staying local, … fill the tank prior to a trip in excess of the range of this vehicle … Don’t carry the unneeded weight.

Excellent statement Randy, that’s it in a nutshell!
Jeff M Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

Don’t you just love the GM spin? First they tell us they have to make the gas capacity smaller because they it’s a volume issue… just not enough room to put what they had planned. Now it’s for a different reason.

See the other thread on this as to why GM is missing out on what would have been a great marketing point… being able to go over 600 miles on a single fill up. Now it’s range (w/a full gas tank) may be less than the same time period Prius.
Jeff M Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

And for those that say a full bigger tank is just extra weight that’s not needed and will lower EV range… as also already discussed in other threads… that’s more spin… the gas tank itself empty does not weigh very much relatively speaking. One need not fill it up, and hence carry the extra weight, except when they want the range (long distance trip).

Next think you know they’ll reduce some of the specs so top speed is only 65mph… who needs the capability to go 85+ when most folks won’t need it?
Jeff Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

How about just a friendly reminder to use the fuel tank as an energy source if fuel exists in the tank?

Fuel tank usage would become a small maintenance item.

GM could work toward reducing this maintenance interval of using the fuel tank. Maybe fuel additive would help. Could it be stored on the vehicle?
MarkFLL Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

I agree with the previous posts…not a big problem. I have a 13′ Zodiac dinghy which is not used for periods of time. I always add a bit of fuel stabilizer on re-fill and never have a problem. And of course, there is a water separator/filter.
JBFALASKA Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:09 pm

I drive 70 miles round trip each day. Hopefully I can plug in at work for free or a small $ charge. If not, the ICE will run daily for me.

Dear GM, I am on the waiting list, number 6,890. I’m standing by with a $10,000 deposit whenever the waiting list becomes used.
Dave G Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

GM should design a system to prevent the gas from going bad. Specifically, when the gas is likely to be getting stale, the Volt should run off the ICE even if the battery is above 30% in order to use up gas before it goes bad. This should all be automatic. Average drivers don’t want to have to think about this stuff. The customer just needs to know to fill it up when the needle says it’s low or when the idiot light goes on.
kenglen76 Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

I began a thread on this a couple of days ago.
http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348

I guess if I kept 1 gallon in the car to give myself ~50 mi to get to a gas station then all I would have to do is put another gallon in every 3 months or so and keep the gas fresh and burn it back down to a gallon.

This means I also have to remember to break my routine and not charge for a couple of nights then once the ICE came on make sure I run for ~50 miles.

#4 omegaman66 has a preferred option. Let the car help me out by just overriding the SoC sensor and run the ICE anyway. The battery can get me home after that. This one of the few cases where I want a computer to help me think.
omegaman66 Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

Exactly most people don’t want or need to be thinking about this. Just have the ice run at least once every once in a long while even if the battery doesn’t need it. Problem solved at the cost of a couple of a dollar a month.
Steven B Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

I liked it how it originally was. I am intending to drive my Volt cross-country periodically. I suppose that a range of 350 miles per fill, or so, is sufficient for when I’ll be doing that. For the most part, I’m only liable to drive about that distance each distance, so I suppose I would have no problem filling up. And then again, maybe the mileage in the Volt will be much more than 50 miles per gallon, my Civic Hybrid has a larger and non-turbo charged engine and it can get 50 mpg on rare circumstances, so maybe the Volt’s mpg will be more towards 60 or so.
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:46 pm

If this is a problem, we should count our blessings. Right now, I have to remember to change the oil in my car. Keeping the gas fresh seems like a similar maintenance issue. I can handle it. I don’t think I’ll even keep gas in my Volt most of the time. I’ll keep my gas tank empty and run my Volt as a full electric vehicle. When I need gas, there will probably be a gas station within 40 miles. I’ll get there.

Can I have my Volt now?
Van Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

I think stale gas is a non-problem. I have gas in my mower sit for the entire winter. Boats have long periods of idle usage and somehow manage to work just fine. And it would not be hard to to program a “run engine light” rather than top off from the plug, once a month or so.
Bottom line, non-problem.
George K Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

#4 omegaman66 , I don’t like the idea of GM deciding when my gas engine should run. Instead, I would like to see a “weeks since last fill-up” as a secondary gauge, dial, whatever. But let me make the ultimate decision.

Then, I need a switch to favor the gas engine even if my soc is above 30%. Also, I may sometimes want to arrive at a location with a full soc.

However, I do think that that #4 omegaman66 idea would work well, for keeping the engine lubricated after long periods, when it isn’t used at all. Here, the engine could occasionally spin, W/O gas being injected. No human intervention needed.
Sentinel Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 11:17 pm

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that the VOlt will have some kind of built in maintaince cycle for the ICE on startup like my Camry hybrid does. When I start the Camry the ICE comes on for about 30 to 45 seconds. If it’s not being used for motion or heat it shuts down.

I can see myself not using a lot of gas in my Volt at all. But I think it could be good for the fuel system and moving parts to get run for a short period of time once a day or so. Maybe once a week???

I don’t imagine the cycle would use all that much gas. So I think I would just use a little fuel stabilzer if I thought it was going to sit for a while. But I do find myself doing some distance greater than 40 miles at least once a month. I have to do a 120 mile round trip for work tomorrow morning. That would burn almost 2 gallons of Volt gas alone
OhmExcited Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 11:49 pm

Here’s my question. If we don’t change our oil every 3 months, will GM void the warranty on the engine? This is a very imporant question, as the reduced maintenance costs of EV’s are often touted.
Grizzly Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

Exercising the ICE is nothing new. The bigger self contained generators from Kohler to Generac do this automatically. So could the Volt, and like many others, I don’t buy the argument for the smaller fuel tank.

Regardless, the Volt must be flex-fuel, and if ethanol is an option then the tanks will have the appropriate ventilation/sealant for the fuels stored.

In a vehicle as “geen” as the Volt, I’d hate to think that gasoline is my only option for range extension, especially considering how GM has promoted the E-85 alternative. IMHO E-85 isn’t an option, it’ s a must.
OhmExcited Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Thought you might like to see what’s being passed around the EV mailing lists.

—————-

Letter from the Chairman of GM

Dear shareholders,
The good news is I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. The bad news is the light I see is shining from the front of a huge freight train. It’s heading right for us. And the name of that train is “GM’s bankruptcy.”
As the chairman and CEO of General Motors, I will go down in history as the executive who bankrupted the greatest industrial company of the 20th century. Even if I quit now, I’ll still get the blame. My reputation has no escape. But each year I can hang on to my job, my pension fund grows by millions – no matter what happens to our poor shareholders. Besides, it’s clearly not my fault. My hands are tied, as I’ll explain.
The larger lesson you should learn from the events now unfolding at GM is a company cannot suffer 40 years of bad decisions, bad ideas, and bad debts and expect to compete with the rest of the world’s automakers. And the same thing is true, on an even larger scale, of our nation. It used to be said, “What’s good for GM is good for America.” But in about a year, when we file for bankruptcy, that motto will be turned around. People will say, “What killed GM is killing America.”
As I have told you repeatedly in these letters, what’s killing us is a legacy of debts and obligations we cannot possibly repay. Managers of GM now decades in the ground made promises to our workers without any understanding of how expensive those promises would become. The profits we made in the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s were very much borrowed against our future earnings in the ’80s, ’90s, and 2000s. And now we simply cannot afford them anymore, nor do we have any pleasant way to repudiate our promises. The only answer is bankruptcy. (The same thing is true, by the way, of all of the social welfare promises the U.S. government has made since the 1930s: There is no real way to pay for Social Security and Medicare without utterly bankrupting the United States.)
Our obligations have made it impossible for us to invest in the capital equipment we need to build more efficient, more reliable, and more comfortable cars. Our aging plants and infrastructure make it impossible for us to compete with our foreign competitors. Have you ridden in a BMW lately? Or the new Honda? Those cars are exceptional – built with new tools to incredibly small design tolerances. We simply cannot build cars approaching that quality anymore. To do so would require $50 billion in new investment – and that’s $50 billion we don’t have.
In a very real way, our debts are strangling us and killing us, bit by bit, a little each year. They bound us up, causing our muscles of innovation to atrophy since we did not have enough money for new investment. And now these cancerous debts are eating the marrow of our business, sucking our cash reserves away one bad quarter at a time.
Last year, we suffered the biggest annual loss of any carmaker in history – $38 billion. And now we’re well on our way to another disastrous year. We lost $3.3 billion in the first quarter, mostly due to losses in our U.S. mortgage business, but also because a strike disrupted our U.S. operations. As you know, we sold 51% of GMAC, our finance company, a few years ago. We should have sold all of it. We “think” it’s still worth about $5 billion. But, truth be told, we are eventually going to have to write off the whole thing.
The real problem with our business, though, isn’t bad mortgages. Quite simply, we cannot make enough money selling cars to afford the service on our $33 billion debt load. This year we will spend close to $4 billion simply paying interest – not including any principal. That’s also not including the estimated $47 billion we owe to fund our retirees’ health care. Or the $11 billion we owe in cash pensions. These debts are killing us. And given that every year our competitors produce better cars, using newer tools, it seems extremely unlikely we will ever turn a real profit selling automobiles.
Take the last quarter. We made $1 billion in our overseas operations, where we don’t face nearly as much competition as in the United States. These profits, unfortunately, are not nearly big enough to keep us above water. In fact, we lost three times that much money on our North American operations in the last quarter.
The only way to save GM would be to increase our global market share substantially by selling a lot more cars. And yet, every quarter, our global market share declines and our revenues fall. We’re now at 12.5% of the global market – below 13% for the first time. And the number of cars we sold in the first quarter fell by 1%.
I think we’ve finally entered the end stage – the death spiral. Our cash balances are now eroding quickly. We lost more than $3 billion in cash in the first quarter, more than 10% of our total reserve. We now have just more than $20 billion in cash on our balance sheet. Given our current burn rate, I estimate we will declare bankruptcy in a little more than three quarters. We can’t operate this business with less than $10 billion in cash. Our suppliers will stop offering us credit, the banks will pull their credit lines, and the whole thing will finally collapse.
At least you’ll know it’s coming.
Please invest accordingly,

Your Chairman

———-

OK, this is obviously fake, but they almost had me at the beginning. The ironic thing is, a lot of it seems accurate.
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:36 am

#23 OhmExcited

A lot of it is alarmist rhetoric from an anti-”entitlement” crusader. Its accuracy depends on your political viewpoint more than on facts. I encourage you to look at the letter again and isolate fact from opinion. Then lets discuss the facts, or lack thereof.
ghost Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:48 am

Ok – if you are that worried about stale gas, then don’t charge your volt one night and USE the gas? Seems simple enough.
greg Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:41 am

Ohm Excited … Toyota marketing is going to new depths sending out spam mail and fake stories to sell cars.

It quite ingenious making American consumers think that GM is falling apart so they buy Toyota’s.

GM needs to fight back at this Toyota Spam ware and start monitoring the internet for malicious ads and start suing Toyota marketing.
Eric E Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:57 am

zzzzzzzzz…Volt…zzzzzzzz…Volt…zzzzzzzz…Volt…zzzzzzzz..

Wake me when it’s over…zzzzzzzz…Volt…zzzzzzzz…
Jason C Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:06 am

I think there needs to either be a option for different tank configurations for different people. Although I’ll only be driving 20 miles to work each day, I’ll still want to be able to drive to Yellowstone National Park and spend the day site seeing. Or even use the most fuel efficient car I own to travel to my inlaws in Kansas (a 1200 mile drive). In my opinion the 12 gallon tank would be perfect for me and the amount of milage I would put on the car in a years time.

So I would say a one gallon tank for those of us that will only drive back and forth to work. a six/seven gallon tank for those with moderate distance needs and then a twelve gallon tank for us with the fuel efficiency needs for long distance travel.
Koz Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 5:40 am

Isn’t Mr. Lutz supposed to be climbing into a pre-production Volt about now?
BillR Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:14 am

Well, yesterday was Cinco de Mayo and I I’ve got stale gas today.

Guess I’ll need some of that fuel stabilizer.
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:22 am

#23 OhmExcited, That was great. I agree with ThombDbhomb that it has a political agenda.

#24 ThombDbhomb. I’m not a big fan of entitlements.
I have learned to stand on my own two feet. No one helps me with anything. I help myself. I have a job. I pay my bills. I’m not a loser who does drugs or hurts people. The government doesn’t give me any money, they just take it.
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:23 am

I still want the 12 gallon tank, since I will be using it.
Estero Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:42 am

This is a repeat of the previous thread where several of us stated “we don’t buy the argument for the smaller fuel tank”.

It doesn’t take a genius to solve the “stale fuel” problem, if it is a problem at all. All one has to do is look at the several solutions found elsewhere in this tread and choose the one that works best for your particular situation!

I really don’t the buy the “weight” issue either. The difference between the weight of an empty gas tank with a 6-7 gallon volume and one with a 12 gallon volume is so small it is hardly worth considering.

The time has come for GM to realize they really screwed up on the decision to downsize the fuel tank to 6-7 gallons and get busy finding space for a fuel tank that will provide for 600 miles range.
Johnnie Paul Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:45 am

Seems to me, that if there was a worry that un-used fuel was going bad in the tank, that you could use it to power your house for a while to burn it off…you know, give the electric company a break…and your wallet.

Not sure how to do this, but I could sure use this ferature in the neighborhood I reside in…power fails everytime the wind blows it seems.

Johnnie
Estero Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:46 am

While we’re talking about fuel tank size, perhaps GM could offer an “option” for a 12-gallon fuel tank for those who need or want it.
Estero Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:55 am

I’m with #31 Rashiid Amul in his message to #24 ThombDbhomb. The only difference is I’m semi-retired. But, everything else applies.
Joe Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:09 am

I find this whole argument silly. Like as if a driver would rarely go over 40 miles. Why make a problem when there isn’t a problem. I can assure you many many times, this engine will kick in to recharge the battery. On a hot day with the air conditioner on, the battery will drain much faster. Night driving with the headlights on, air conditioner on, wipers on, radio on, and a little longer trip then you expected, the engine will kick in. If you are one who would use the Volt just to commute with less than 40 miles travel, then the computer could kick in at an ideal time to top off the battery. Hey, I think the engineers are looking at these arguments and are chuckling with each other about these comments.
kent beuchert Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:18 am

Don’t you just love the spin some people put on anything GM says.
The ideaa that a change can have more than one reason seems to be a foreign concept to some. There are SEVERAL advantages to making the fuel tank smaller and having only one rather than two
gas tanks. Now, that was easy, wasn’t it?
Joe Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:25 am

Another argument is the size of the gas tank. Some want to be able to go a trillion miles before they have to stop and refill. There again, I find that argument silly. Like as if here in the US we don’t have many gas stations. The Volt has limited space and the weight has to be kept to a minimum. Why carry all that gas and weight? It just makes the car less efficient. Four hundred miles before fill-up is plenty. Some will say,well I don’t have to go to rest rooms, I don’t have a bladder problem. Again, that’s a silly argument. No matter how young you are, one should stop and stretch even if it’s only at every four hundred miles intervals, for safety sakes. There again, I think the GM engineers are chuckling among themselves with these silly arguments.
Jim I Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:31 am

OhmExcited #23:

That post has been made here on at least two different threads that I can remember…

I think it was Tagamet that said this, but I will repeat it, as it is good advice:

Don’t feed the trolls!

This thread – For most of us, I would think that a seven gallon tank will be adequate. But I could see the value and the extra income to GM for an option of a 12 gallon tank, for those that want the extended range.

But 600 miles without a stop to pee, I didn’t do that even when I was 20!!
Joe Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:45 am

to #23 Ohmexcited

The letter you are posting on this site is outrageous. You say it’s being passed around on the internet and you believe some of it is accurate. Well, we don’t need that garbage on this site.
MarkFLL Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:46 am

The Plug-in Volvo concept is suppose to have an option where you press a button to run the generator whenever you want. I think that’s a nice feature.

“During a journey the combustion engine starts up automatically when 70 percent of the battery power has been used up. However, the driver also has the option of controlling the four-cylinder Flexifuel engine manually via a button in the control panel. This allows the driver to start the engine earlier in order to maximise battery charge, for instance when out on a motorway in order to save battery capacity for driving through the next town.”
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7975/
GM Volt Fan Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:55 am

GM should find out who the primary cars the Volt will be competing against and give the Volt a big enough gas tank to be close in overall range as those cars. If the latest and greatest Prius plug in hybrid has 500 miles of range then the Volt ought to have 480 miles of range at least. I like the idea of those sensors to detect stale gas.

Speaking of sensors … I’d also like GM to put some sensors on each tire to detect when you need to pump some more air in them … to keep them at optimal pressure … for the best rolling resistance so you get the best “all electric range” and gas mileage, etc.
brad Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:56 am

What would be cool is the option to plug and play on most of the parts of this car, similar to a computer. If you want a bigger gas tank then just plug in a bigger gas tank and loose a little storage space. Just like if you want a bigger hard drive or faster processor you just swap it out. If that is a potential I see lots of room for custom parts and design and lots of money.
Evan Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:16 am

Not that I want to wish the fuel tank bladder issues of the Prius on anyone, but it seems to me that a bladder type system makes a lot of sense in the Volt. The issues we have with it on the Prius (variable capacity based upon temp, Some fuel gauge accuracy issues, some ’spit back’ if you try to top up) would seem less important in the Volt since fill ups would be so rare and it would be infrequent that you’d be running the tank dry.
Also, the clear advantage are the exceptional control of evaporative emissions of the volatile gas. It would do a great job of helping preserve the gas for longer term storage/use…particularly with a little stabilizer added.

Final comment…several people have talked about just keeping 1 gallon of gas in the tank. That seems fine if you are regularly (every 3-6 months?) going to burn that gas off and add fresh. If you do not expect to use it then it actually makes more sense to keep the tank full. There’s a lower fuel to air space ratio (unless using a bladder system) and thus less volatile emissions and chance for water condensation. It’s always best to keep a tank full for long term storage.
John Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:27 am

I don ‘ t think stale fuel will be much of a problem . I believe engine sensors can already adjust combustion for octane . They should be able to help with marginal fuel .
Lets hope in a way that a small gas tank becomes a probelm , caused by a wildly successful volt reducing gasoline consumption to the point that 50 % of the gas stations disappear , forcing us to plan our trips carefully because stations are rare !
nasaman Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:39 am

32 Rashiid Amul ….As you say, “I still want the 12 gallon tank, since I will be using it.”

I agree, and after considerable thought, I would resolve this matter as follows…..

1) Offer a 6-7 gal tank in the base Volt, AND a total of 12-15 gals (dual tanks?) as an added-cost option. This allows advertising to say something like, “the Volt has a non-stop range of over 600 miles available!” —a PRICELESS marketing advantage (although only those customers who want it would pay for it)!

2) Provide a 2-3 min automatic engine start/run with “CHECKING ENGINE” displayed during the test, automatically performed at periodic intervals (90 days?), only during initial vehicle startup.

3) Display a “FUEL STATUS?” reminder every 6 months, with an Owner’s Manual/Prompter Card explanation to “either a) add fuel stabilizer OR b) use & replace fuel (to prevent fuel deterioration)”

4) Provide driver selectable switching to select between…..
a) “NORMAL” (runs on battery with ICE backup as usual), OR
b) “RUN ENGINE” (runs the ICE continuously —presumes the Volt’s controller inhibits battery charging at max SOC), OR
c) “BATTERY ONLY” (runs only on battery, but at less than a ~20-25% SOC, ICE/Gen overrides this to resume battery recharging-maintaining) to min SOC
Jeff J Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:57 am

What a wonderful problem to have !!! Oh for heave sakes I haven’t used any gas for eight months !!!!
greg woulf Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:01 am

Stale gas won’t be a problem, not only because people will occassionally hear that generator kick on, but because the solution is so simple. Just add some fresh gas once every SIX months.
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:07 am

#31 Rashiid Amul
#36 Estero

I don’t want to get off topic too much. But, I’d hate it if I reached an agreement with my employer on wages or benefits, and after I finished my part of the bargain (fnished out my career), the other side didn’t come through with their promises. I would feel “entitled” and cheated.

Rashiid – I usually like what you have to say. You seem so reasonable. So, it surprises me that you are so extreme on social security, pensions, and the like.

The government takes my money too. But, I get something for my money; I get services. The services could be better, especially if they were all directed at my interests. If their were no “entitlements” a lot more people would suffer. I guess that would be ok as long as you got yours. If “entitlements” were eliminated, there might be more desperate people trying to take yours. If there was no government to protect you from those people, you might need to hire your own security.

I wish the anti-”social” people would think a little deeper. There has to be some government and not everyone can win the game.
TOM M Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:14 am

# 23 ThombDbhomb;
Agree , Agree: As I posted in a prior listing, we have to look in the mirror at the culpirt. GM and others produce what is in demand. We continue to elect career politicians that have only two things on their mind. ” This election and next election ” We should have had a Energy ploicy in place back in the 70’s after the oil embargo. May I quote Mr. Jay Bookman of the Alanta Journal-Constitution : ” We don’t need leaders to tell us how great we are, we need leaders willing to tell us that we’ve gotten ourselves into a bad mess and it’s going to take hard work,sacrifice and cooperation to fix it. The alternative is the decline of a great nation.”
God Bless America, because we need it.

Tom
Dean Anderson Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:39 am

Regardless of the size of the fuel tank it should have a provision to drain out the stale fuel that does not involve dissassembling the car.
I’m with #14, I’ve got a $10,000 deposit check ready too.
Jim I Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:41 am

ThombDbhomb #52:

The problem is that it has been well known that there is a funding problem with many of the large pension and hospitalization funds, Medicare included. But rather than fix the problem, which involves some pain, everyone just wants to bury their heads in the sand and hope it will go away. And politicians will never say or do anything that will hurt their chances of getting re-elected.

Can you imagine if any of the three candidates actually stood up and said, “Medicare will be bankrupt by 2035, so I think we should raise the payroll tax, raise the minimum retirement age and lower the benefits a bit to get the program back on safe fiscal ground.” AARP would get out the vote, and the poor soul would never have a chance….

Why do you think we do not have a real energy policy, and that we are ten trillion dollars in debt?!?!?!?!?

And don’t expect the new President to really change anything,,,,,,,,
Tim Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:53 am

This is yet another MOLE HILL that can be handled with a simple sensor. If the fuel goes stale and a light comes on. You can then choose to:

a) Add 1 gal fresh fuel.
b) Go for a long drive to burn off the aging fuel.
c) Don’t charge until the aging fuel is consumed.
d) Drain the old fuel.
e) Induce fuel additive.
f) Add fuel stabilizer while fueling and don’t worry about it.

Now, wouldn’t it be great if GM:

A) Provided an override mode so the driver could choose to keep the battery at 70% until the fuel is depleted so that you would have enough range to reach a gas station. OR
B) Added a little tank for fuel stabilizer and a sensor to determine how much fuel was added during each fuel stop so a small about of stabilizer could be automatically injected into the fuel tank. Kind of like a 2-stroke oil injection system for the fuel tank.

Then again, I like simplicity so I’ll choose option “c” and then top off when going for that occasional long drive. The Volt will be an EV for me 95% of the time anyway.

Regardless, the fuel ENTIRE system should be easy to depressurize, access, drain, re-pressurize and purge of any air bubbles. I can see why GM is hesitant about using a diesel range-extender.
Tim Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:57 am

I should have said that I would choose option “c-A” on post 56 (above) just to be clear to the anal-retentive among us.
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 10:03 am

#55 Jim I
#31 Rashiid Amul
#36 Estero

I am open to a rational assessment of the state of so-called “entitlement” programs, as well as a reasoned resonse to any shortcomings. However, I don’t think this is the place for that type of discussion. Let’s stay focused on our common interest – the Volt.
RB Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 10:08 am

My wife and I have two backup cars (yes, really), just in case. We use the 1st backup once a week. The 2nd backup car is rarely used and sits for months unstarted. It sits with a full fuel tank, just in case it’s needed. When the key is turned, it always starts fine. The one time there was a problem, it involved the battery and something not having been completely turned off. Based on this experience, I have a hard time picturing how stale fuel is going to be a problem. But if it is in someone’s thinking, just engineer the car to let the ICE come on for a minute or so when the car is first started. [Of all the things one could worry about with a newly designed new car, this one seems the least likely to happen. Maybe it is really an advertising spin -- so little gas used, we have to worry about stale fuel?]
Van Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 10:17 am

I think a gallon of gasoline weighs about 6.5 lbs, so adding 4 gallons of weight to a vehicle that already weighs over 2500 lbs will not be a significant additional load, and then you could advertise a 500 mile range with a 10 gallon tank.

The Honda Insight engine was a very light aluminum engine, but I do recall if GM has said how much the Volt ICE will weigh.
noel park Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 10:41 am

#20 Van and others:

I agree, this is a non-problem.

#42 Jim I:

I agree. We have been over this several times before. We seem to be falling into loops, just to have something to discuss to fill up the 3 years until something really happens.

#53 TOM M:

Discussing energy policy, or the lack thereof, seems a lot more productive than going over “stale fuel” again.

Last night on CNN, the Governor of North Carolina was attempting to defend Hillary Clinton over the “gas tax holiday” issue, about which the less said the better. The reporter asked him is she had an actual energy policy beyond the same.

He replied that she has an extensive energy policy, and commenced to go through a laundry list of ideas. About the 4th and 5th things out of his mouth were “litium-ion batteries”, and “plug-in hybrid cars”.

While I totally share your cynicism about the possibility of any career politicians actually making the hard choices and implementing an effective energy policy, it was mildly encouraging to see that these things are becoming buzzwords at the Presidential campaign level.
Bryan H Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:08 am

I have an old 93 Dodge Dakota that I use for gardening/yard work for carrying mulch, dirt, or even lumber a few times a year. I put in fuel stablizer in a full tank of gas in the fall when I am not using it during the winter. The motor starts up every spring without a problem. I really don’t think Gas going stale is really an issue, Just need to be “reeducated” in maintaining a new style vehicle.

Just had to put in my penny worth of thought in.
southerncannuck Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:08 am

A lot of boaters have the same problem. I use Sta-Bil and make sure to run all the gas thru once a year. This should not be a problem with the Volt. You’ll want to run the engine now and then to keep it healthy anyway. Go for a long drive once a month and show off your new car!
warpwiz Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:10 am

For maximum versatility, could the tank be compartmentalized? Put a switch in to allow a 2-gal, 7-gal or 12-gal fill. That way, the individual driver can control his/her situation and needs.

An alternative would be to install twin 6-gal tanks. Those whose driving requires little on-the-fly charging could stick with one tank; those driving longer distance would have the 2nd tank to extend their range.

The smaller the volume of empty space, the less likely the evaporation/condensation is to occur.
Tom "TJ." Thas Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:59 am

So, it is 2012 and a hot July day. I have just returned home from
the 32 mile commute from my office in my VOLT. I see by my charge status gage that I can still run anither 7 or so miles as my 64
mile round trip power usage was cut in half by my use of my United Solar Votaics of Greenville, Michigan ” Solar Blanket Parking Lot Multi Spectrum Charger” which even on an overcast day will provide an adequate boost.
Since I enjoy working out I always pack my portable folding lightweight aluminum stair step machine ( generator ) which I can set up in 3 minutes or so and after a sweaty 10 minute go at it, as my volt battery charges can aways count on another 10 miles of highwy driving.

Now home I hook into my home system. In the basement I have my 3rd generation NanoLithium Power Container. About the size of a large ice chest this device will store enough power to tap off for 9 days.

The long wooden slat fencing in my back yard 6′ tall actually containes micro tube wind turbines in place of the typical verticle slats. Inexpensive to install by this time, the fencing runs the legnth of my yard. This feeds my bacement Power Container. Naturally some years ago I replaced my roof, installing Blended WIde Spectrum Solar Roof Shingles. This feeds my bacement Power Container.

Scattered through out the property are groups of artfull canisters the size of a football. Some are elevated, some line the rails of my deck and glow at night…These also are verticle wind generators. They feed my bacement Power Container.

Off in a well sunlit corner of my yard stands my Micro Thermal Solar Aray. Taking up just an 8′ by 8′ square area with the boiler tower quietly sanding not more then 7′ high. As you know the small, dense mirror array aimes at the top of the Solar Collector and a liquid turbine generator spins from the intense mgnified heat. This feeds my bacement Power Container.

I am self contained. I do not buy power from the grid. Living in Michigan I have swiched from natural gas to electric heat in the
winter and my hot water as well. When my bacement Power Container and My volt are topped off I am a net energy producer selling my product back to the uility.

Remember, I am writing this in the year 2012, 4 years from your now.
With the intence drive by General Motors to produce the Volt 4 years ago the effort has spauned massive innovation and has awakened “Moors Law in reguards to everyting solar, batteries, wind,
solar thermal ect…

Moor Law…Double the Power-Half the size every 18 months.

I now shrug when friends complain of the budget busting cost of Propain or Gas or Heating Oil or Power.

Thank you GM for makin it all happen !!
TOM M Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

noel park # 61

Yes, I agree that hearing something is better than hearing nothing.
We as individuals will have to make some serious life style changes and this won’t be easy.The sacrifices we made during the second world war were hard on everyone, but you know, we pulled together as a nation and accomplished the job that was ahead of us. We need that unification now to accomplish the mission in front of us today and in the future of America. I for one want us to be a great nation again. The leaders we pick must understand that “We The People, ” demand performance
Sorry for getting on my soap box, it just upsets me to hear these politicians going in the wrong direction.

Tom
noel park Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

#66 TOM M:

Don’t be sorry. Amen.
Nixon Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Since some drivers will hardly ever run the engine, the Volt is going to need an hour-meter to show how many hours the engine has actually run. Like on commercial vehicles.

Then engine service can be based upon engine hours instead of miles driven.
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

I have been reading through these responses and I am just not in agreement with those that call on GM to add this or add that. Let those additional items be options where YOU pay for them, not ME. I am smart enough to realize that I have to do some things myself. I just do not see stale fuel as a problem. We all very likely will drive enough to cause normal ICE to function without add costly sensors that will sooner or later fail or read improperly thereby causing a service repair trip. I want to hold down the complexity of the Volt to the things we really need to get us to and from home safely and at the least possible cost and impact on the environment.
DaveP Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

So, there’s a big audience out here… Let’s see:
1) what is the oldest gas you’ve ever used?
2) how many of you have ever had gas go bad?

I have had gas sitting around in one of my cars for over a year and it seemed to work just fine (car even passed emissions tests on the old gas). My folks have had gas sitting in their boat for over 2 years and it still worked just fine.
The oldest gas I currently have is in a plastic gas can in the garage which I use in my Coleman unleaded gas stoves and lanterns which is now about 10 years old and it still seems to work fine as well, although I haven’t run a motor vehicle on it.
I have never used stabilizers and I have never had any gas that seemed “bad” even after months or years of storage.
Maybe it’s an illusion. Maybe the gas is going “bad” but as long as it burns perhaps I don’t really care about its quality because the quantity is so small.
TOM M Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

N Riley #69

Good for you !! This makes for a a case of : ” Lets be responsible for our own astions.”

Tom
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

#61 Noel Park

It is amazing to me that when a politician is running for President, he (or now she) always has a plan for this or a plan for that. If they have these so called great plans, why don’t they have bills made up to support those plans and get them released for votes in the House and Senate? I know and some of you (not all, mind you) know these so-called plans are only plans to get themselves elected. And too many of us believe them and no one in the media ever seems to ask them why haven’t they submitted just such a bill for discussion and a vote.
Eugene H Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

This is a perfect time to go full green to include a hydrogen engine based off of brown’s gas to create the hydrogen gas for the combustion of the engine from water that won’t go bad. This method creates hydrogen gas on demand, and would work well with a small generator engine for the volt.
TOM M Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

N Riley 72

Sorry, ment to say ACTIONS, hit the wrong key.

Tom
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

#52 ThombDbhomb, You are right. This is not the place for this discussion. However, let me clarify quickly. I have no problem with Social security, nor medicare, nor pensions. I have problems with other things, but this is for a discussion over a beer. Or at least you can have a beer. I don’t drink.
Evan Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

#69 & #71
While the being responsible for ones’ own actions is a noble idea it’s just burying your head in the sand in this day and age. Can you imagine the bad press for the Volt the first time someone who wasn’t responsible for their own actions has a bad engine repair not covered by warranty on their +/- $35k new fangled Elictrick Car. GM’s gotta make this right, they need to make it idiot proof..at least as much as possible and they need to support it fully when stuff does happen to avoid the bad press.
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

#75 Rashiid Amul

Thanks for that.
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Nasaman #49. I agree. Giving me the option for a bigger gas tank is a great idea.
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

#77 ThombDbhomb, No problem. I think you and I would get along just fine if we were to meet. Perhaps at the first or second group Volt ride.
If I remember correctly, you and I are far apart. I live in Connecticut, and I’m thinking you live in a warm climate. Texas? Arizona?
Neutron Flux Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

Back to the Subject: Stale Gas……
Pressurized or not, when you open the lid to add gas the tank is depressurized! By putting one gallon into a 7 gallon tank you add 6 gallons of humidified air then seal it in when you put the cap back on. That air goes through a constant heating & cooling cycle as well as being constantly mixed with the fuel as the gas splashes around in the tank. In previous years some models had problems with the tanks rusting out over time, this was attributed to not keeping tanks full of gas as the air/ moisture condesed on inside metal walls of tank; water + air + metal= rust. The thin protective coatings used wore off over time. A newer tank may be stainless or a non rustable material but does not eliminate condensation. Those in areas with high humidities should be concerned with opening the cap & its humidity content effect on the gas. Less gas + higher humidity = stale gas quicker. What is the tank going to be made from? Is it rust proof? When pressurizing the system can they pump in moisture free air & vent out some of the mositure laden air prior to equalizing pressure, IE pressure relief valve designed to be repeatedly over pressurized slightly to vent off humid air during initial pressurization after the cap is reinstalled? This will reduce stale gas. How to cost effectively remove moisture from air being pumped into tank to pressurize? Any ideas? Not sure desicant wil react fast enough.
TOM M Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Evan # 76
This is a great sight. I really enjoy reading the comments. I still disagree with you, and the comment of this day and age indicates our age difference. If I mess up because of my bad decission I am still going to be responsible for my own actions. It seems like the younger generation always wants to blame someone else when they themselves make the mistake. I don’t consider myself nobel, just a guy that has had to come up the latter the hard way. You may be right about idiots, but even idiots have responsibilities. I do think that with a piece of equipment like this , the dealers are really going to have to go over the owners manuel in depth with each owner before turning them loose on the highway. This being said you are correct in that somebody will try something stupid.
akojim Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Well… my GF was reading these posts (yes, I’ve finally found something that gets her excited) and then she looked me straight in the eyes and asked, “Why is it all you guys ever worry about is size?”
Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

@80 Neutron Flux,

I don’t know why they wouldn’t make the tank a plastic/polymer one. That’d be rustproof, naturally, and lightweight to boot.
PeteVE Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

i read many posts about it not being a big deal. the question is not is this worth investigating. guys, the question is there because as engineers, you NEED to address all of the variables. YES, it may not be a big issue, but it is an issue that engineers will get hammered on if they don’t address it. they are simply looking at one of the millions of variables as they should.
Estero Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

#52 ThombDbhomb said “I’d hate it if I reached an agreement with my employer on wages or benefits, and after I finished my part of the bargain (fnished out my career), the other side didn’t come through with their promises. I would feel “entitled” and cheated.”

Hope that never happens to you, but you had better be prepared it has happened to many others!

Read the fine print in your benefits brochure. It likely contains a statement something to the effect “The company reserves the right to change the benefits described in this brochure without notice.”
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

Evan # 76

If you try to idiot proof this car, it will look like it was developed by a committee from congress. I did say that it should get us safely to and from home with as little impact on the environment and cost as possible. Beyond that, idiots will screw up no matter what.

You just cannot always plan for the lowest common denominator.

#82 akojim

Gosh, I don’t think I would tell these “guy” that you’ve found something to finally excite your girl friend. Might make us think you are falling down on the job.

Seriously, I am glad she takes an interest. Good for her and good for you getting her to take a look.
canehdian Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

“Why is it all you guys ever worry about is size?”
Haha, Priceless.

Anyways. Someone mentioned oil changes: you probably wouldnt need one in the ICE for a couple years, unless you were doing regular long trips. If you used the ICE for 5 minutes every month, you really think that oil’s going to get dirty and degrade?

Now, if you’re driving a longer distance, and the engine is on for 2 hours a day to charge up the battery, you would probably need an oil change more often, probably similar to today’s conventional oil change needs. As suggested, they would probably have a meter to test how long the engine has been running before it needs an oil change – or even simpler, an oil sensor to test when it needs to be changed.

GM’s biggest warranty worry would be in the $10000 (?) battery pack, not in the ~$500-1000 engine.
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

I believe GM will provide the proper “bells and whistles” to insure the ICE is functioning properly. They are experienced with maintenance requirements and will have adequate time over the next two years to fine tune any procedures.

GM now provides oil quality sensors on some vehicles. This tells the owner when to change the oil. I assume these sensor are accurate and do not send you to the dealer to have an oil change just to provide the dealer with business. Surely GM would not send you in until the quality of the oil had dropped to where replacement was needed.

At any rate, you “guys” are doing us all a great service by continuing the discussion. it is good to point out what each of us thinks the Volt needs as “optional” accessories. Keep it up. I feel sure there are areas of interest we have not covered yet.
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

As far as the size of the fuel tank is concerned, it doesn’t matter to me if it is 5, 6, 7 or 15 gallons. it makes sense to have a small tank and keep it fairly full in case of late minute need. Weather or other factors can come up where you need to drive several hundred miles and you can’t find a station open or whatever.

I can certainly understand both the need for a small tank (no smaller than 5 gallons, though) and a larger tank (probably no larger than 14 gallons). Having a large tank could be one of those options you would have to pony up for, if you think you need it. Personally, I would recommend GM keep the size to what they plan at this point (7 gallons?). If you need a larger tank, let the after market supply it. Gm could insure adequate space for a larger tank or the after market could supply some means of giving the extra gallons.

Who knows what the after market will come up with. But one thing is for sure – they are already thinking about it. There will be money to made with the Volt, just like all the other cars and trucks.
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

#79 Rashiid Amul

I’d love to meet you at a Volt rally. But, I live on the central California coast. I guess I’ll have to meet up with Noel Park instead. Oh wait, he doesn’t have one yet. I guess I’m the only Californian with a Volt prototype (….wait for it… wait for it…) Just Kidding!

I think Noel is about 150 miles away from me. My Volt will easily get to his place and back on one tank of gas.
Estero Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

The reason I want a Volt with a larger fuel tank is RANGE and OPTIONS. It has nothing at all to do with stopping to pee, rest, eat or anything else.

When I get my Volt, I would like to head north on I-75 and get to Georgia Exit #2 before needing to refuel because I know the fuel there will be cheaper. It is doubtful that a Volt with a 400 mile range will allow me to do that.

I could get to Exit #2 in Georgia with my old 1999 with 180k miles. That is not possible with my 2006, which has a smaller gas tank.
noel park Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

#88 N Riley:

We have the feature on our 3500 truck which tells you what % of the useful life of the oil is left at any time. It definitely does not send you for an oil change early. Actually, we usually chicken out and change it before the system tells us to. We were raised on 3000 mile oil change intervals. Depending upon how many highway miles we dirve, the system will tell us to stretch it out to 6-7,000 miles, sometimes even more.

I don’t think that it actually tests the oil. My understanding is that it uses the computer to measure a number of parameters such as number of cold starts, oil temperature, engine hours, and average engine speed.
Arch Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Has anybody thought of the idea that GM reduced the size of the gas tank because the engine gets better than 50 miles to the gallon. There may well be no need for the larger tank. Lets hang around and see what happens.

Take Care
Arch
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:47 pm

#92 Noel Park

We have all been led to believe that 3,000 miles is the oil change interval. That is a lot of bull. That figure came about not from the auto manufacturer but from the quickie oil change locations. They want you to come often and early. I always read my new car/truck manuals from cover to cover. One of the things I always take note of is the recommendation for oil change intervals. Most of the time it is between 5,000 to 7,500 miles depending on car and conditions.

I usually change mine around 5k, although I do slip up and let 6k come around. I have been doing it this way for 25 years. It works fine and I have never had a bad engine or a smoking one.
Tagamet Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

IMHO, I thiok this will be a non-issue UNLESS Gm “fixes” it with something automatic – like mentioned with the Camry start cycle. If there is a point at which (God forbid) gas is unavailable, I’d rather not have something built IN to the car that *insists* on gas.
As an option, I’d like a scrolling LCD on the trunk (so the poor guy following me sees it) that reads “**** miles since I used a drop of gasoline. For more information see your Chevy dealership”
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

#93 Arch

I would not doubt that. I suspect the mileage may be better than 50 mpg. I am hoping for as much as we can get. I will only use the gas engine on the weekends when I visit family about 60 miles away. I don’t do that but every now and again. Should do it more, but you know how it is. You get busy, etc.

I take vacations that require 350 to 1,000 miles. I only do that one or two times a year at most. I am just looking forward to the daily commutes and around town driving where I can “turn my nose up” at the service stations as I go by.

And I don’t feel sorry for the oil companies or the service stations. They will have plenty of business for the next 20 years. After that, I doubt it.
Tagamet Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

OR
“**** miles, ** gallons – You do the math…..”
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

#97 Tagamet

You would not make friends that way. But they would start thinking….
FLman Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Why not have the ICE use LP as fuel? It’s compact, doesn’t spoil or collect moisture. Filling points are across the nation; anywhere you service an RV. If the tank is removable through the trunk, it would make it even easier to have it filled at any LP pumping station.

I can’t think of a more flexible alternative. Then imagine changing the tank to pressurized hydrogen. Then it’s a true green machine! The possibilities are endless.
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

LP is not available enough in interstate areas and are usually in out of the way locations in most cities. just not enough distribution locations. There i not anything wrong with gasoline as long as you can greatly reduce your usage of it. it is easy to find and easy to use. It will cost more, yes. But it still has too many advantages to ignore.

We do not have to be anti-gasoline, just pro least use as possible. The Volt makes that possible.
N Riley Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Should be “is not anything wrong with gasoline…..” Fingers, toes and keyboards.
DaveP Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

I pointed this out before under the article when they first announced the smaller gas tank. I already have a car that will do about 600 freeway miles on a tank of gas (2005 Hybrid Accord). And what I would rather have is a bigger trunk. They didn’t reduce the gas tank size from the regular Accord and they instead ate up trunk space with the batteries… 2.8 cubic feet of cargo space was lost from the trunk, taking it from 14 to 11.2 cuft.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/honda_acura_central/honda_accord_hybrid_road_test
Given that the space for the gas tank has to come from somewhere, 7 gallons of gas looks like an awful lot of trunk space to me. For example, that’s enough space to carry an extra 7 gallons of beer. But seriously, at 231 cuin/gallon (US) that works out to about 1 cuft of room that has to come from somewhere. The current Cobalt has 13.9 cuft. trunk. Would a 12.9 cuft trunk be so bad? Who knows. It depends heavily on the shape as to what you can actually get in there.
Statik Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

I don’t think many are upset at the actual ’size of the tank’ The range is well above the average vehicle.

Half the people are not happy because of the fact something was taken away from the Volt as it was initially envisioned. The other half are just optimistic, glass half-full types…who are generally positive almost all the time.

(No, I will not be taking a poll as to which one I would fall into, lol)
Jim Rowland Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

I drive 600 miles a week… big tank is good, small tank is bad.
bruce g Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Speaking of hydrogen tanks I have just seen a report from the SAE conference on a collaboration between Mercedes,GM,I think Nissan, on fuel cells and their attempt to reduce the amount of platinum catalyst.
It was sugested Mercedes will put a fuel cell vehicle on the road in 2012, price unknown.
Yahoo changes its content and by the time I decided to write this note I couldnt find the article.
It was an interesting read, someone may stumble over it.
robotnik Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

I had a ‘89 Toyota pickup sitting out back for 3 years without
starting it. I needed it one day because someone asked if they
could use it. I said, “I guess so, if I can start it”. The battery was
dead. I put in a new battery, turned the key & it started right up.
It stank for a while, but the tank was half full and got the guy
moved from his apartment. He used it all day. I guess the gas
was bad, but no problemo.
Koz Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

Estero,

Your concern is over roughly $1.50. Stop for lunch at an RV park along the way and charge up. You can save another $3.00
nasaman Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

95 Tag….

As you said, “As an option, I’d like a scrolling LCD on the trunk (so the poor guy following me sees it) that reads “**** miles since I used a drop of gasoline. For more information see your Chevy dealership”

AS USUAL, YOU’VE GIVEN ME A HUGE BELLY LAUGH, TAG!!!

….but then I suddenly realized I could make a TON of $$$ by simply attaching one of those bright scrolling LED signs I can get pretty cheap at Sam’s to my Volt’s trunk and agreeing to always have it display “XXXX MILES SINCE I USED A DROP OF GAS, etc….” (my $$$ target will be the new “World’s Largest Chevy Dealer” only 3-4 miles from me on I-4 north of Orlando!) Thanks for the idea!!!
Terry Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

#42 has a good point. Do you really want to drive 600 miles without stopping? That’s 10 hours at US highway speeds. You think you have a bladder that can handle 10 hours of fluid buildup? Do you think SHE can hold out for 10 hours? Let the GM national bladder competition begin!

One more thing – would all of you please STOP comparing the Prius to the Volt? There is no comparison – unless you can drive your Prius for 40 miles on NO gas. When that happens, then we can talk about comparisons. (Dropping your Prius 40 miles or rolling it 40 miles downhill does not count – level ground only). The only advantage of the Prius is that you can buy it now. Is it 2010 yet?
nasaman Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

More seriously, and referencing my carefully-considered post #49 above, provide an additional 6 gal tank as an added-cost option, allowing Volt advertising to claim an available (& invaluable!) “OVER 600 MILE RANGE”!

Here’s how: Locate the optional 6 gal tank under the trunk floor in place of a spare tire. It doesn’t make sense to include a spare tire for the Volt’s low-running-resistance 40 psi tires –so, as in many new vehicles, simply include an aerosol flat inflator, which leaves space for an additional 6 gal tank without encroaching on luggage space.
Speedy Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:32 pm

The Volt can run without fuel ? And just run just on Electric? Right? So wouldn’t it be able too travel 600+ miles without these large fuel tank?
Speedy Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

I believe the Volt can travel 600+ miles on 6 or 7 gallon fuel tank?
Grizzly Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

“I think it was Tagamet that said this, but I will repeat it, as it is good advice:

Don’t feed the trolls!”

*** *** *** ***

Tag may have repeated it, but uhhh I coined it, but hey who’s counting….Right?

The point is that that post is obviously carefully crafted with an agenda, and it’s not w/o errors, even if there is some truth to it. As stated it has appeared several times on this blog.

GM has touched a nerve with their brazen push to develop the Volt and E-flex and that’s obvious.
Tagamet Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

Grizzly certainly posted the “DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS sign before Moi. In fact, I think he posted it AT Moi (g).

Nasaman, are you going to er, troll for prospective Volt buyers and get a comish from that Chevy dealer? If all this goes even CLOSE to as planned, your services with the Volt sign probably won’t be needed until 2012. I like the “optional” gas tank, just for the AD value, but the smaller tank will suit me just fine. I love the idea of pulling into a full service gas station (they are mandatory in NJ) and asking them to “Fill the oil and check the gas” Hee hee.
mien green Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:36 pm

Grizzly at #113:

Wrong. Should I show you the website that was imported in from while everyone around here was still saying “What’s a troll?”
Tagamet Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

mien green and Grizzly, it could have been a case of independent discovery.(and in the greater scheme of things it’s not worth fussing over)
Grizzly Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Tag # 116

MG is referring to the use of “troll” which has been around for ages. P.D.F.T.Ts is one I came up with, and it’s been repeated, but it’s not important. Just FTR.
Grizzly Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

WRT fuel and the tank. I’m glad that Drew and GM have their thinking caps on. I was encouraged by the response to the question “a one gallon tank would be fine”. Since it will probably be polymer and weigh next to nothing, if one gallon is all you want, then stop the pump there.

Personally, I don’t know what the future will hold for liquid fuel. I see ethanol playing an ever increasing role, but scarce by petroleum pump standards. This is why I wouldn’t mind the 12 gallon tank. Let me decide how I’ll deal with my freedom and global politics.
Scott Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

Please leave the tank at 12 gallons. While not everyone will use the ICE often or at all, there will be enough times for a lot of people when they are using the car for something other than a commute to work or a short drive. When this is the case one wouldn’t want to be stopping every 15 minutes to fill up with fuel. If someone only wants to use a gallon of gas or so in their Volt they only have to purchase that much.
Jermale Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

I agree with the above posts. Leave the 12 gallon tank, as was stated it never can be nown when it will be needed. Since it weys nothin empy why worry? If you only want 1 gallon then fill it, but wood if things get bad and you dont know? Being able to carry this as a safety mesure might be the cats meeow, and homeboy would be thankful he had it. Someone stated that one can never now the future, why the short change?

Jermale
Guy Incognito Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

The whole gas in the tank thing is practically a non-issue, & a 7 gallon tank will do fine.
Mike Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:38 pm

I say leave the 12 gallon tank as well. I live in a condo (with no garage) and I would have to get a permit and board approval from my homeowners association to run a line to my reserved parking spot. This is rather unfeasible (and costly since I can’t do it myself like I normally would) and the ICE would be my primary method for charging the batteries.
Jim I Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 12:13 am

Grizzly:

Mea Culpa on the wrongly applied quote!

nasaman:

Trading the spare for an inflator kit is a bad idea. Chrysler did it with the Crossfire, and with the big wheels and low profile tires, when you hit something on the road, or one of the wonderful potholes we get around here in the winter, you don’t get a small pinhole that will seal up with fix a flat. You get a blown tire and possibly a damaged wheel. Without a spare, you either call a tow truck, or call the wife to bring a spare from home. I have had to do both…. Having an extra six gallons of gas in the car doesn’t mean anything, if your car is sitting on the side of the road, because you have no spare tire in the trunk!!! On the Crossfire forum, we call this “Tire Anxiety”. Especially when you have to take a trip of more than 100 miles from home!
Estero Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 6:16 am

koz #107

Just exactly where are those recharging stations? They might be there some day but not when the Volt first arrives in the Dealer showrooms.
Jeff Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 6:32 am

If all vehicles used E-FLEX, it would be just a known fact to use gas before it goes stale. And it would be considered an oil industry problem…NOT a vehicle issue.
Statik Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 6:44 am

Stale gas seems like a non-starter to me. How long does it take for gas to go bad anyway? I’ve not seen that stat yet.

I know I used to store a car over the winter…once it sat idle for over a year…and I had no problems.

So if gas keeps for over a year, I would suggest that anyone who lets their gas go stale is, well…a moron? At least not very smart.

If I have to have a big sign beside my vanity mirror saying I have a airbag (why?), doesn’t seem too hard to put up a sign saying use your gas.

I would suggest putting a sensor on your gas cap, and if it doesn’t go off for 9 months, you get a warning light…but that would cost GM $30, and probably force them to increase the car to 50K and delay production a year.
N Riley Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 8:48 am

Statik is right. GM does not need to add silly things just to remind us to use the fuel in the tank. I have had fuel in lawn mowers for several years that started up as soon as the plug was cleaned and the filter was checked. But, I live in a moderate climate in the winter and a hot, steamy climate in the summer. I am sure climate could affect the fuel, but I doubt enough to make it go stale before we would use it. This is just a big non-issue, just like the size of the tank. Let GM build the Volt and the after market can take care of what GM does not provide. I am sure GM will provide all the “necessary” features.

Let’s just get the Volt on the road sooner than later. We need this vehicle now.
David Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 9:00 am

I think this vehicle should have a selector for which mode you want to operate in I.e. EV, Hybrid, Gas.
N Riley Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 10:34 am

There you go adding to the complexity of the car. That will add more cost for those who don’t want the feature. And, don’t say it can be an optional feature that is paid by the owner who adds the optional feature. We all pay for those in one way or another.
Tagamet Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 10:38 am

David,
At the risk of repeating myself:
“FIRST let’s get the volt’s wheels on the road!”

Those options would be great on Version 2.0, but even as I type this the news is flooded with the issuse of rising fuel prices.
Maybe the govt can promise to pay for Volt warranties and then GM can release it in 2009 instead of 2010 – Did I say that out loud?
N Riley Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 11:03 am

Tagamet

Asking the government to pay for anything is asking us all to do it. The government doesn’t have any money except that taken from us.

I agree about the version 2.0 of the Volt. GM will “improve” the Volt as each year progresses. I am just ready for it now.
Tagamet Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 11:11 am

N Riley
I totally agree with you about govt intervention is almost anything, which is why it was SO difficult for me to mention it. I see my lapse as a clear indicator of how desperate I am to get my butt into a VOLT.
N Riley Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 11:16 am

Tagamet

I totally understand. I am on pins and needles waiting. I just hate to wait another two and half years, or maybe longer, depending on the roll out schedule GM decides on.
Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

@95 Tagamet,

Here ya go. Pop one of these in the back window.
http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/peggy2#comments
Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Woops, nevermind that anchor tag on the end. I failed to cut that.
http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/peggy2
Tagamet Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

No problem on the link. Taht’s COOL.
Tagamet Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

That’s That’s
Keith in Texas Says:
May 9th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

Personally, I will be using the ICE every day … as my commute to work is 75 miles one way … (Yes, i drive 750 miles a week just getting to/from work). The Volt however, as I see it fitting into my plan eliminates a vast majority of my weekend fuel requirements. (Town is only about 12 miles away). I figure if I am getting 40 miles on EV (for about 80 cents), and outstanding MPG beyond that … and the same thing on the way home, it literally would save me 150+ dollars a week. I would like to see them offer both a standard 7 galon tank, and an optional (Extended Range) tank for a fair price.
Avoid Overweight Luggage Fees with a Luggage Scale « Wicked Blogging Says:
July 31st, 2009 at 7:45 am

[...] Gas and the Chevy Volt: Change Your Fuel, Not Your Oil | GM-VOLT … [...]
Bruce Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:59 am

You may want to consider that some people, (me for instance), are interested in the performance aspects of electric drive, and would have their engines running almost all the time charging the battery for the next big power boost. These people would need a large tank. We would also need a performance mode for the electric drive software.

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Gas and the Chevy Volt: Change Your Fuel, Not Your Oil

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