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Chevy Volt Generation Two
No sooner than we hear the first Chevy Volt lithium-ion battery powered prototypes are tooling around the track, than a GM VP is giving an interview about the next generation Volt.
Fact is the Volt is here to stay (and GM-Volt.com along with it). Indeed we have heard GM North America president Troy Clarke call the Volt this generation’s 57′ Chevy (see post ).
For the first edition Chevy Volts, engineers have been taking the keep-it-simple approach and just making sure they have a robust vehicle than can be made reliable in the tens of thousands of copies.
They have heard our desires for snazzy and unique features, and many times when these ideas are brought up, we are told that might be for the next generation.
GM VP of R&D Larry Burns gave an interview for Road and Track Magazine.
Per the article "work is already under way on the second generation. He declines to give a timeframe."
He also goes on to refer to longer battery ranges, but implies fuel cells could be that range extender. In the past Burns has said the fuel cell Volt is slated for production in 2011 (see post ).
He also appears not to be keen on using E-Flex for large vehicles such as large SUVs and pick-up trucks, but rather indicates the 2-mode hybrid will serve for those.
What would you like to see in the next generation Volt?
Source (Car and Driver)
148 Responses to “Chevy Volt Generation Two”
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:14 am
The most serious improvement would be a greater all-electric range. More whimsically, I’d like to be able to blow the Mustangs into the weeds.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:22 am
A fuel cell version of the Volt must indicate that GM is able to make fuel cells very cheaply now. Fuel cells were targeted for the Cadillac version of the E-flex platform, the Cadillac Evok. If they are now planning on dropping them into a Chevy, it must not be a significant cost / price increase.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Hydrogen…get real!
Look how many E85 stations there are and how long it has taken to build them. Hydrogen is way to far away to truly be feasable. The beautiful thing about E-flex is that we all already have a charging station at home. Having charging stations in public areas is just icing on the cake.
While Hydrogen might be ready in 2020….we need E-flex, E85 and diesel for 2008!
I think they randomly put hydrogen out there in order to show the world they are on the edge of R&D and neither Toyota, Ford or Honda (with their new silly hydrogen car) have a leg up. I think its just PR but that is just my opinion of course.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:35 am
RB: Agreed! I like looking at Mustangs only in my rear view mirror. With the the instant available torque in an electric car it shouldn’t be a problem. It might not happen with the first generation but I’m sure there will be easy tweaks.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:39 am
They must be joking, GM use Volt purely for PR purposes, it is NOT clear if they can ever succeed, now they are talking about second generation, sounds like Hillary is talking about raising reelection $$ as the US president for a second term, even though she may NOT get nominated this summer, even nominated, she has little chance to defeat McCain. Oh, my god, it is certain to me that GM is losing and will NEVER recover.
Feel bad to most Michiganians for the declining of their communist Corporation called GM. I think who ever is buying any GM junkies those days should ask if this company will stay in business for more than 5 years.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:44 am
What I want to see in the 1st and 2nd gen Volt is a vehicle we can all afford. If the buyer wants to add a lot options that ups the price, so be it. But give us a vehicle we can afford first. One that will help get us off the mid-east oil supply. I would love to see the day that the only thing they have to sell is sand.
I don’t want to sound anti-Arab, because I am not. I just believe that the oil producing countries of the mid-east that proclaim to be our friends are helping the people who are planning to kill us here and abroad.
Sorry about the political statement.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Although Larry Burns may imply fuel cells, I don’t forsee them anytime soon, even with a major cost reduction.
Why? Because hydrogen isn’t cheap, and its not readily available. And while 2-mode may be good in larger vehicles, I forsee E-Flex for larger vehicles, with an electric motor for both the front wheels and rear wheels (the Evoq had a similar arrangement, only 2 in-hub motors in the rear).
Using the Volts electric motor of 120 kW, one in front, one in the rear, a truck, van, or SUV would have 240 kW or 320 hp available, not to mention AWD. The ICE and battery could be smaller (minimal plug-in capability) and the ICE could operate intermittantly and at or near its best efficiency (like the Volt’s ICE). This should provide excellent power, value, and flexibility. I would expect a smaller engine, perhaps the 2.0 L engine from the Solstice (260 hp turbocharged 4 cyl with direct fuel injection).
With an EPA rating of 20/20 city/hwy for the 2-move 4WD Tahoe, it is certainly an improvement over the conventional Tahoe. However, the Tahoe only needs 30 hp (22 kW) to move it down the road. The Volt needs about 12 kW at 60 mph (5 miles per kWh). If the Volt can achieve 50 mpg in ICE mode, the Tahoe should be able to get 27 mpg or more.
Therefore, especially for those who won’t need to tow heavy loads (i.e. soccer moms), this could be a much more efficient vehicle.
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:07 am
I really want to see options for electric motor size, battery capacity, and engine size (all higher or lower). For example, I’d like to have less battery capacity (~20 miles), and a less powerful engine and motor to get better fuel economy at lower price (my commute is 12 miles round-trip not exceeding 55 miles/hr).
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Thanks for the opportunity to share. Naturally, if the first generation Volt does not have an adequate trunk, then a 13 cu ft trunk. And of course rear seat headroom of at least 38″. Turning now to new ideas:
Revo – like Tvo for the radio. It would record your presets and allow you to advance the recording in 30 second intervals to avoid those pesky profit centers.
Hardtop convertible, so as I cruise along without engine noise, I can enjoy the less polluted air.
And now for a really wild one, have the range extender be a liquid nitrogen engine/compressor so when you are plugged in, you not only charge your battery, you fill or maintain full, your liquid nitrogen storage tank. This would give the Volt a range of hundreds of miles without burning any gas whatsoever.
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Quote: “What would you like to see in the next generation Volt?”
Echoing what most have said, I would like a longer range, and all-electric would be nice…
A sport truck like the older Chevy Luv (although much bigger) would be nice for future SUV incorporation of the E-Flex Design…
…and finally, bring back the Fierro, and do it right with a “Spiffy” E-Flex design to compete with the “Spiders” and similar sized cars cruising around.
I still want a Volt in a Green & Gold Metallic paint…when do we see paint schemes?
Johnnie
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:09 am
GM’s announcement that it is actively working on Generation Two of the Volt is a clear signal to their detractors who claim the Volt is not a serious long term effort by GM to change the landscape in the American auto industry.
Judging by actions and not words, GM is the only auto company selling cars in America (maybe even in the world) that has a plan to move away from our current dependence on foreign oil. First with Flex-Fuel vehicles; GM had millions of these vehicles on the road before anyone other than Al Gore were even talking about the importance of bio-fuels as a necessary first step in getting us off of foreign oil. Also near term, GM is adding hybrid assist to even their large trucks to boost mpg indicating a company wide commitment that AFAIAA no other auto company can match.
Longer term you have the Volt which will eventually come in 3 versions — All-Electric (BEV), Hydrogen Fuel Cell, and probably for decades into the future a Flex-Fuel ICE E-REV type which is the current Volt being road tested now. Also, consider their other brands like the Cadillac Evok and Saturn. I expect to see a more modest cost E-REV coming as a Saturn brand, and it looks like the Evok will be the “cadillac” of EVs with fuel cell and electric hub motors.
The other auto makers (the Toy company and Found On Road Dead?) seem to be providing nothing more than window dressing with hybrids that need ICE engine running the majority of the time and come out with great concept cars and blow a lot of smoke but in the end won’t change a thing when it comes to actually taking the foreign oil company gun out of our backs. Aren’t we all tired of their hands in our wallets month after month?
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Greater all-electric range would be the number one improvement I’d like to see for generation 2. However, I’m not sure if battery technology will progress enough between now and then that we will see a big jump in AER. But maybe it would work out. For example, if the current battery ends up lasting 10+ years handily, they could consider expanding the useful capacity to, say, 70% instead of 50%.
Getting the cost down is right up there with more AER. Gadgets are nice but I may not be interested if they keep the price up too high. I hope gen 1 and 2 offer basic versions of the car for people who don’t need or want all the wizardry. Of course, if these things can be had pretty cheaply, bring ‘em on.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Great topic Lyle!
I’d like to see V2G (vehicle-to-grid) capability. Also, a voice nav system. I’d also like to see the polycarbonate roof, and someone mentioned a few weeks ago, an exterior finish he had on a car that resisted scratching, etc.
I’d also like to see a 5 passanger Volt. Also, I’d like a switch to favor the generator over electric, so I could drive to a location on gas and arrive there for 40 miles of battery use. I live in a suburb that is 35 miles from dn-tn Chicago. Or, I may drive to a car demo and want to arrive so I can demo electric mode!
Oh yes, I really want a back-up camera, and perhaps cameras to replace side view mirrors. Also a warning if a driver is in my blind spot.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:33 am
No to the fuel cells!
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:43 am
I wonder if the fuel cell version might be targeted at China. From what I understand is that China may have the ability to produce a large amount of hydrogen fairly cheaply in the future due to the large number of nuclear power plants they are building. From what I understand there is a process to produce hydrogen from the waste heat from these reactors.
The idea is that since china has little infrastructure for gasoline currently that it may be cost effective for them to use hydrogen.
I’m not sure if it will pan out but I think this is one reason GM is pushing hydrogen in China.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:48 am
I agree! NO FOOL CELLS!! Hydrogen/fuel cell is a terrible way to store & use electricity.
2 mode PLUG-IN hybrid is fine for larger vehicles. GM can however use E-Flex E-REV for a small S-10 style pickup truck.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:48 am
I think it goes without saying, but I’d like to see every problem Gen1 has fixed in a timely manner so that Gen2 which should be a higher volume car has most of the initial design bugs worked out. I think this would be more important than adding bells and whistles this early in the game. There will undoubtedly be small problems with system function, ie when the ice comes on and when it doesn’t etc. and that will need to be tweaked even further.
If Gen1 does not have it, then Gen2 should have the ability to flash update the PCM to address future problems/deficiencies with an upgrade. This would go a long way in assuring volume buyers that this car will not be obsolete.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:54 am
If China doesn’t have a service station network, how will drivers there find hydrogen fuel? You would need a network of stations to provide either gas/diesel and/or hydrogen.
Electric cars with a longer range and quick recharging would be the best bet whether in China or the USA.
Get us off the oil kick and the service station as much as possible. The Volt as it stands in gen 1 form would be a great first step. Hopefully gen 2 will advance us further on the road to freedom from oil and service networks.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Hydrogen doesn’t make sense for all applications. But I’m continually perplexed at the visceral and dogmatic emotions it evokes when the subject is brought up. Reminds me of reactions when people challenged aspects of religion or followers of the Atkins diet. So at the risk of being labelled an apostate, here are a couple points to consider.
Hydrogen make sense mostly with larger vehicles and city vehicles, where local emissions are proven to affect health, notably of children and the eldery. They also reduce noise pollution, which increases the quality of life.
Large buses for example cannot be purely electrically powered. Neither can taxis or police vehicles, which drive all day and don’t have time for recharging. So if your goal is to reduce pollution in urban areas, zero emission fuel cells have its use.
But the auto makers should be careful to give us all the choices and let the market decide and let hydrogen live or die on its own merits. Making a fuel cell range extender variant doesn’t take away your ability to burn oil in your range extender if you have your heart set on that.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
#18
I see your point and will agree with it. It does make sense for inner city vehicles used for transportation, delivery, security, etc to use hydrogen. I think an electric vehicle for a large portion of the driving public makes much sense. There are applications where a Volt style will be ok, where a Prius style will be ok. Let’s develop multiple types that will help as many people as possible.
The old saying that “Variety is the spice of life” may still hold truth.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
I’d like to see more than 50% of the battery pack’s 16kwh capacity be used…. that will give more EV only range right there.
Or use a 25% smaller pack but use 67% of it’s capacity to get the same range (67% of 12kwh would be 8kwh, same as 1st gen Volt’s have available)… that could reduce the cost of the battery pack (maybe by 25%?).
And yes, regarding the Hydrogen talk… even if they solved the dozen problems that have stood in it’s way for the past 20 years… including having a hydrogen filling station everywhere… do you really want to be duplicating the same problem you have today with gasoline… a single non-flexible fuel source where you are at the will of the big hydrogen producers (which is likely to be the same big oil/gas producers as hydrocarbons are the best source of hydrogen, it’s most economical to free hydrogen from natural gas (CH4), than from water (H2O).
There is no reason to believe that filling up with hydrogen to go a certain distance would be cheaper than gasoline. Especially as demand ramps up.
Battery EV’s are the ultimate flex fuel vehicle… electricity can be generated from so many sources. It’s even more likely that you’ll be producing your own electricity at home (from renewable sources such as solar pv or wind) than making hydrogen fuel cell vehicles economical. And the infrastructure is already in place to deliver and put that electrical power into your EV (like the Volt).
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
#20
Amen, amen….
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I would like to see a solar panel incorporated into the trunk, roof and hood so while I’m slaving away at work my car’s battery is charging itself. Same with the shopping mall or trip to relatives’ house or whatever.
Keyless entry should be standard as well!!!
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one…5 SEATS PLEASE!!!
If hydrogen fuel cells are so terrible I wonder why they are being pursued so doggedly by major automakers? Sure there could be a publicity/image aspect to it, but corporations also care a lot about money and they don’t like to throw money away on things. Unless they’re feeding off government funding for fuel cell research?
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
You could always just make your own hydrogen when the time comes.
Set up a windmill or solar panel and use that power to split water 24/7
(or whever its sunny/windy).
Then you’d just need a compressor to put it in your tank, and you’re done.
Very minimal investment for years of ‘free’ fuel.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Entergy Nuclear just reported an annual profit that’s up 73% in one year. They operate 11 nuclear reactors at $18 per megawatt-hour, 74% less than the cost for the most efficient combined cycle natural gas plants in use in California. If there were a competitive market for hydrogen, you can bet they’d find ways to pump it fast and cheap. Wouldn’t it be nice to see Entergy, Exelon, PG&E, Duke Energy go head to head with Chevron, Shell, BP, and more specifically Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Iran, Russia…
We need competition and energy diversity and throw everything and the kitchen sink at the problem. Not an academic debate that in the end fails to solve anything.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
CS Guy #10 says, “The other auto makers (the Toy company and Found On Road Dead?) seem to be providing nothing more than window dressing with hybrids that need ICE engine running the majority of the time and come out with great concept cars and blow a lot of smoke but in the end won’t change a thing when it comes to actually taking the foreign oil company gun out of our backs. Aren’t we all tired of their hands in our wallets month after month?”
Yup. They talk talk talk though because it seems that is what they do best. The Volt is totally different, and in my opinion, the first real answer to our fuel problem.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
# 23
I believe hydrogen may be better for the auto companies to continue their dealer’s service departments. Dealers make more on service than on selling new cars. Plus, oil companies (now morphing into “energy companies”) have a vested interest in providing hydrogen through their dealer network. Plus, hydrogen would be the death toll for all independent service station owners who would find it very difficult to fund hydrogen fueling stations. Of course, Uncle Sam will step in to help the large “energy companies” .
So, hydrogen offers a lot of promise in more ways than one. It offers the consumer a far worse choice. Hydrogen price hikes will take the place of gasoline/diesel price hikes in our future.
Electricity is a much better choice with as little dependence on an ICE as possible.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
OhmExcited (#25), I’d rather put solar PV on my house and tell ALL of them where to go.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Who is stopping you Tim? A solar PV on your house won’t power your range extender or a large vehicle, though. In fact it won’t power your car if you charge at night, only offset someone’s air conditioner being powered by coal or natural gas.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Solar panels on cars would be expensive, easily damaged and would look pretty bad. Having solar panels at home, work or in shopping malls make more sense. They would serve us better and reduce costs.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Match the Think car’s range and I’d be in heaven. 110 miles on a charge would be supreme. That would allow the GM Volt to cover 95% of the average numbers of commuters trip per day.
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Fuel cells are stupid. I would rather see much progress being made on BEV range increase. This makes much more sense.
As Jeff M #20 says, “It’s even more likely that you’ll be producing your own electricity at home…..”
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April 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Fuel cells? Now this sounds like a joke. What a let-down. Why not stick with what people are screaming for… a BEV version only for gen-2 with a long range. OPTIONS THAT MATTER, not pie in the sky fool cells.
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April 27th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
canehdian (regarding installing solar and/or wind to produce hydrogen)….
…. I do take it you are being sarcastic. We all know producing hydrogen from electrolysis (splitting water, aka H2O, using electricity) is a very energy inefficient way to store electrical energy. The hydrogen obtained from electrolysis I believe contains only 70% of the energy it took to produce it. Then as you mention, you have to highly compress it (it’s not like running your air compressor)… guess what, that takes energy too. And hydrogen as you know is the lightest and smallest of all the elements… ie. it’s hard to contain… it easily leaks out, and as it warms up while you have it stored it wants to “boil off”. And then look at how relatively energy inefficient a hydrogen fuel cell is at converting the hydrogen back into electricity (to drive the electric drive train of the vehicle)… sure it’s more energy efficient than a gasoline powered internal combustion engine/transmission, but pales when compared to a battery system.
It’s much more energy efficient to use that solar and/or wind home system to charge your EV’s batteries directly, power your home, and feed any excess back into the grid (running your electric meter backwards)….
… even if your system is solar power that only works during daylight, and you are charging your EV at night… it’s still more energy efficient (and hence cheaper) to charge your EV at night from the grid. Even better with solar if you have time of day metering where peak (daylight) power is billed higher than off-peak (night) power. In a way the grid can be compared to a battery for someone with excess solar energy. Very much more efficient than converting excess power to hydrogen and back again.
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April 27th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Agree with #18
In addition, think of a hydrogen distribution system of pipelines delivering hydrogen created from seawater at nuclear power stations or whatever near the coastline. And piggybacking off those supercooled pipelines would be high voltage electricity transmission lines made of superconducting materials to reduce electrical losses prevalent in the current high voltage AC transmission lines. (google it to see) This would save 7% of the electricity generated in this country, which we are currently losing.
PS, high temperature superconducting materials do exist but they are both far off in the future still and way more expensive. By using superconductors that need cooling it saves money and utilizes the hydrogen pipelines so costs are shared. It’s a win-win.
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April 27th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I would like to see an extended range. I would also like to mention that I think there’s a market for a solid but no-frills car. By solid I mean don’t make the interior (or any of the car) seem super cheap.
GM, here is my free idea for a commercial. Show file footage of some anti-US street rally where the people are chanting, burning an American flag, etc. You can put subtitles at the bottom of the screen that show that they’re chanting “death to America, death to America.” Keep rolling the footage but keep shrinking it down. As the footage shrinks a Volt driving along beecomes more and more visible as a backdrop. As the Volt pulls into the driveway of a nice suburban house the footage disappears into a pinpoint near the Volt’s charging port. The driver gets out to greet his wife. “How much gas did you use this week?” she asks. “None,” he says as he puts his arm around her and they walk inside.
99.9% of America would love you for it and the Volt would get all kinds of free publicity.
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April 27th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
I filled up my Hyundai Elantra today. 87 octane, $51.00.
The Volt can’t get here fast enough.
#36, tiger alum, Good idea for the commercial.
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April 27th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Lyle, the Volt looks really cool in black.
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April 27th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Well that is just great. Volt 2.0 will be a $400,000 dollar fuel cell car that nobody can afford. And GM says the big heavy vehicles aren’t going to the volt drive train because of their size.
Like I said GM will squander this opportunity to be ahead of everyone else in the auto ball game. I just wonder why a volt drive train is good enough for a locomotive but not an SUV?
Hybrids are a stop gap measure until batteries or ultracaps are produced that can handle the load. And once they are you will have another 2 year wait because GM is dragging their feet.
If I controlled toyoto or honda or Ford I would have been shaking in my boots a year ago. But right now I would be thanking my lucky stars that GM is giving my company an opening to take the lead but dragging its feet in implementing the serial hybrid before everyone else can other than the low production Volt 1.0!
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April 27th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
#24
“Very minimal investment for years of ‘free’ fuel.”
Are you kidding me. The car itself is going to cost more than your house and to generate hydrogen at you house is going to cost almost as much as the fuel cell car. I don’t think 95% of the people could afford an intrest only loan on all that crap.
hmmm… spend much more money on a system that is less efficent…. hmmm tough choice!
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April 27th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Thrilled about the Volt..Can’t wait.. Just a crazy question do you believe that the oil companies will let this hit the market with all the politicians they have in their pockets and even future rep. presidents. And whats to stop the oil companies from dropping gas prices the day the volt hits the market..Think 6.599 a gallon one day and bam chevy volt released and 2.50 a gallon the public will go scrambling for suvs and trucks again..and GM will be there to supply..It will take a independent car company not selling suvs and trucks to get the car of tomorrow on the road..PR is great.
I’m interested in Zero pollution motors but also the volt the price is what will make my ultimate decision..love the site.
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April 27th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Jason D, #42. You bring up an interesting point. I don’t know if there is anything to stop the oil companies from doing what you suggest.
I do think the people are sick of the oil companies and I hope they are smart enough to realize the oil companies are only trying to scam us.
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April 27th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Jason D #42
That is a pessimistic view. And it is not just rep presidents in the pockets of big oil. It doesn’t get as much play, but the dems have been feeding at the same trough for years. Both parties are to blame for the mess we find ourselves in today. So, let’s stop blaming one side or the other. It’s easy to blame the oil companies, the auto companies and politics when it is us, the purchases, that have had control. We could have demanded more efficient vehicles, etc. But we did not.
Let’s do so now and in the future. Let’s hold both government and the auto companies feet to the fire until we get what we need to free us from the oil companies and the oil producers.
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April 27th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
The 57 Chevy was a simple car that looked good and could be modified. What might be cool for a 2nd generation Volt would be to open it up a little to third party developers. Allow for a bigger battery pack for extended range, but maybe make it a plug-in upgrade, so the geeks can take a stab at alternative forms of power, the hot rodders can add more power, and so on. If GM can make the Volt an open platform as much as a vehicle, they can get other companies doing research for them, and they also get the smart motivated people on their side.
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April 27th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
You can bet there will be plenty of third-party development for the Volt. It may take it a year or so after it is out.
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April 27th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Reply to “CS Guy” and wasting nuclear power and liquid hydrogen pipelines…
1st same problem with using nuclear power plants for electrolysis of sea water… why waste the electrical power on such an inefficient process? Much more energy efficient (and hence cheaper) to feed the power into the grid and charge battery EV’s than to electrolyze water, compress the hydrogen freed, pipe it***, transfer to (new) hydrogen delivery trucks, pump it into vehicles, and and then convert the hydrogen back into electricity to power the fuel cell EV.
*** regarding piping it… no existing pipeline can obviously be used for transporting hydrogen. H2 is just too small and light that it easily leaks. And because it needs to be highly compressed, almost like freezing it (as you said, super cooled), it also makes it that much more difficult as that can make lots of materials brittle.
ps: and while I’m pro-nuclear and live less than an hour away from a reactor myself (Seabrook), and do support building more reactors, I believe the price of nuclear only going up… not only are the cost of building them getting more expensive (as is any power plant due to esculating metal prices like copper, etc), but nuclear fuel is also skyrocketing due to demand and the fact that like fossil fuels, it’s a limited non-renewable resource. Hopefully new reactor designs will help extend the life of this fuel source (I think I heard that traditional reactor designs only consume single digit percentage of the potential energy in the fuel rods!).
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April 27th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
“So what flavor of Linux would you like loaded into your Volt Mr. Paul?”
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
At $35K for Generation 1…$25K for Generation 2.
But a “blank check” program may make it impossible. At $35K…the Volt will probably be the most expensive Chevy car
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Hmmm,
They dont see a vehicle with twice the mass as appropriate for e-flex.
Fair enough, I guess we can fit tow bars if necesssary and use trailers.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Jeff, #49 says, “At $35K…the Volt will probably be the most expensive Chevy car”
Don’t forget the Corvette.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
For everyone that has heard the question…”What would you like your monthly payment to be?”
Some may not agree in the land of “easy credit, no down payment”, but the best feature of a car is a title without a lien..
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
I think that GM should run the PHEV/E-REV show like they have their entire product line. Introduce each vehicle one after the other with new models. Go through the entire product line and build each one up-to-date. Instead of even thinking about building a second generation Volt the way Toyota did the Prius, just build the first Volt right and keep it on the market on lightly modified for as many years as possible while focusing on new E-flex vehicles, and if possible introduce a new E-flexer model each year until there is an E-flex vehicle for each segment of the small vehicle lineup. If I had the money, I think I’d really enjoy to have an E-flex Solstice as a second car. But also make an E-flex Aveo equivalent, and Malibu, and Impala. Make E-flex a regular drivetrain option like SS is. And try to make them each the best possible so that way nobody notices that the 2020 Volt is coming out in LS, LT, and LTZ trims, and nobody realizes that it has already been on the market for 10 years. And maybe tie the trim selection to the AER, as well as other options, and make the LS a 20 mile AER, the LT a 40 mile, and the LTZ a 60 mile.
There is so much potential in using E-flex and plug-in 2-mode hybrid technology, along with flex-fuel engines, to change GM back into the powerhouse auto company it has historically been, and to restore the health of the American economy. Don’t miss the opportunity by getting ahead of yourselves. Just electrify the vehicle and integrate V2G as soon as possible. If a payback hybrid model of the car can be standardized, it will change auto consumer economics. With V2G, $35,000 for a Volt could really end up being the equivalent of $20,000 for a similar car. And if nothing else, the car can serve as a backup generator. But V2G capability is something I want to see in the first edition.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
V2G would be good. Anything to reduce total cost.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
I just want the first edition to be extremely reliable and priced for the masses. And if they can make the car fly over traffic grid-lock, well, I for that too.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Rashiid,
Thats gen 5 or 6, I think.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
#47, the cost of nuclear will likely fall with the construction of simpler and more efficient nuclear plants. The cost of nuclear power is almost entirely made up of the cost of the original construction, the uranium itself is a tiny component. Uranium could go up in price 10-fold again, and the cost would go up only 1 cent per kwh.
I am firmly convinced that the best way to reduce carbon dioxide emissions is a combination of adoption of Volt technology and nuclear power world-wide. Have half of all cars electric and half of all power nuclear, I’d bet global warming and pollution cease to be a problem.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
42 Jason D
“”"”Just a crazy question do you believe that the oil companies will let this hit the market with all the politicians they have in their pockets and even future rep. presidents. And whats to stop the oil companies from dropping gas prices the day the volt hits the market..”"”"
1. Yes I believe the oil companies will let this hit the market. I don’t believe they can stop it personelly.
2. Gas prices are not earning refineries large margins. Refineries that were to drop their price of gasoline 40 cents a gallon would lose money. Since all companies that lose money end up out of business I doubt that they will cut their own throat buy cutting gas prices.
There are only two ways to lower gas prices. One: increase supply and opec isn’t having any part of that. Two: Lower demand. China and India and other countries are making that extremely unlikely.
That leave us with only a few options the best of which is to switch from using gas which is only about 30% efficient in an ICE to another form of energy, electric which is over 90% efficient.
Prius style hybrids on the road today ONLY take the gas and try to use more of the available energy from it by recapturing some of the energy that wasn’t wasted initially. Thats right the wasted 70% never get used even in a prius. Upside isn’t that high. If you think 50mpg is great then your expectations are extremely low compared to what we should be getting from our energy. No doubt brought low by dealing with gas engines your whole life and listening to their rheteric.
Whereas the serial hybrid or BEV both use no gas for the vast majority of the miles a person drives if not all of the miles. When a serial hybrid uses its gas motor it is at is least efficient. When a serial hybrid is at its least effiecient it can match the efficiency of a parallel hybrid when the parallel hybrid is at its most efficient.
A serial hybrid is just superior in ever way to a parallel hybrid. GM ALL your cars need to be serial hybrids are BEV’s. It is a no brainer that GM just can’t seem to grasp.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
V2G is something that I will never do. You stand to gain what??? 100 dollars a year maybe??? At what cost. Shortening the life of your cas battery and leaving the potential of having to throw away all those gains because you use the ICE engine prematurely because the battery was fully charged when you needed to leave the house.
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April 27th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
#57 Dan
Just for your information, you might want to look into this if you are going to type pronuclear comments. Nuclear waste can be destroyed so that it isn’t radio active anymore. Something to do with plasma. I don’t know how much it cost just that it is possible and that existing laws prohibit its use because they are old laws dealing with the handling of the waste before this technology was available. This process is not a new development either.
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April 27th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I hope we have alternate means of producing some or all of our home’s power needs with the excess being sent back into the grid. A credit on our electrical bills will go a long way to off-set other costs. But I know, you have to overcome initial cost before considering additional savings. But, we have to start somewhere, don’t we?
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April 27th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Benefits of the Chevy Volt:
1.) You are not tied to gas – fuel cost won’t change daily, you can actually budget your daily commute.
2.) You and your kids won’t breath in the hidden CO2 that is in your car and you don’t know it. Its low levels but still does some damage.
3.) It will be much cheaper to fuel, at least $10,000 savings over 5 years, due to buying electricity over gasoline
4.) Less maintanence costs, very few oil changes, brake changes, transmission flushes, air filters and more.
5.) 100% torque available at 0rpms
6.) Stealthy – quiet car
7.) More customization will be available because electronics and software will be running the car. A big boost to the tech sector.
8.) Looks great – although we haven’t seen the final version yet.
9.) Range extender
10.) Priced much cheaper than comparable electric cars
11.) You now have the option to create your own power using solar, wind etc. You have more freedom, not relying on others.
Cons of a Chevy Volt
1.) Limited electric range
2.) Great for daily driver but not for being a work vechile where a larger vechile might be needed
3.) Limited availability at first – still not confirmed
4.) No engine reving sound
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April 27th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
The major thing I hope generation 2 has is 5 seats instead of 4 seats. I can’t get the first generation because I have 3 kids. So there isn’t enough room in the 1st generation. I need the second generation to have a total of 5 seats in it for me to purchase it.
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April 27th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
More performance! (5,6,7 sec. 0-60)
5 seats (just make a break in the ‘T’ where the 3rd passenger’s feet go)
Charge us whatever, but give us options. Put this tech in the 2010/11 Cadillac CTS suitably dressed. Imagine the CTS-eV with magnetic ride control…
You think people with money don’t want oil-independence?
Thanks,
Ken
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April 27th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
For the next generation Volt, aim for both the low and high markets:
High Market: Large sedan/crossover version. This version would not only hit the upscale markets, but could replace the limos and taxicabs in major cities. The big plus here is that most of these cards spend a lot of their time idling (waiting for passenger pickups). A Volt version of one of these could wait at a charging station, filling up on electricity and keeping the air conditioning running, and still use zero fuel until a ride took it more than 40 miles away. These cars typically drive 60K-80K city miles/year, so a Volt version of one of these would be a big winner once GM has a better understanding of battery life.
Low Market: Small compact/third-world version. Build a Volt the size of a Chevy Aveo, smaller range (8KWH battery), smaller ICE (1-cylinder or 2-cylinder diesel), and vehicle-to-grid capability. Not only would this be a good city car for US markets, but also would be a big hit for third-world markets where the gasoline infrastructure hasn’t been established yet. In addition to providing local electricity, these could also be charged on solar or wind power (since many of these countries don’t even have an electrical infrastructure yet). Right now, third world countries are increasing their carbon emissions faster than first-world countries are decreasing them. With over 1 billion car sales projected in the next 25 years in the third world, a non-petroleum car would get these countries started with a minimum of cost and oil consumption.
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April 27th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
#17 Grizzly Yes, you are right that perfecting all the little bumps found with experience in Gen 1 in highest priority for Gen 2. Gen 1 will finds buyers on novelty. Gen 2 must be a polished product.
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April 27th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Research suggests that V2G would net EREV and PHEV owners about $1500 per year. If that’s accurate, then that means $7500 in five years income from plugging in your car, and $15000 if your car lasts ten years with satisfactory remaining battery life. So that will more than make up for debt servicing costs. You’ll also save a few hundred dollars on a generator (if you were planning on buying one), as well as whatever tax incentives or subsidies will be available, probable reduction on the cost of electricity, and of course gas savings.
I’m not saying that I think everyone should use V2G, especially seeing as the consensus by everyone is that there a lot of unknowns regarding doing it, but at the same time I’m saying that I’d like for the Gen-1 Volt to be V2G-ready and that I’ll volunteer my vehicle when properly compensated for it.
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April 27th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
These are the cars: These’s are the car’s that are going to use the E-Flex Drive System First Generation: 2009-2010 Saturn FlexTreme E-Flex Plug-in Drive System, 2009-2010 Saab 9-1x E-Flex Plug-In- Drive System, 2009-2010 Chevrolet Volt E-Flex Plug-Dive System, 2010 Cadillac Evoq E-Flex Plug-in-Dive System, 5th Generation Hydrogen Fuel Cells.
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April 27th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
When I get in my Volt, I’d like it to be ready to go; no ice or frost on the windows and a comfy temperature. Perhaps a built-in, progammable timer could start the defroster and/or HVAC.
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April 27th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
I would like generation 2 to be made of carbon fiber. Less weight equates to less energy.
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April 27th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Speedy,
Whoa, hold on a minute.
I believe the Saturn is a dual mode hybrid with a nine mile electric range.
Presumeably the others are as well. However the Volt has a 40 mile electric range and is a serial mode vehicle.
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April 27th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Carbon fiber is also one of the more expensive materials out there…
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April 27th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I agree, the Volt Gen 1 should be V2G ready. I live in Florida and could really have used it, during the hurricanes, when we can lose power for a week or two. Now back to Hydrogen. GM keeps bringing this up and we are so wraped up in the battery development, we have not given this any real consideration. What if there were a breakthrough on the horizon, where hydrogen could be split from water on board the car, as you are driving along? Use it as you make it, with no storage or infrastructure problems. This would be a real “game changer”. I, for one, do not think we have been giving GM, and the other car companys that continue working on this, enough credit.
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April 27th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
“I’m not saying that I think everyone should use V2G, especially seeing as the consensus by everyone is that there a lot of unknowns regarding doing it, but at the same time I’m saying that I’d like for the Gen-1 Volt to be V2G-ready and that I’ll volunteer my vehicle when properly compensated for it.”
Absolutely, I agree! This has been one of my recommendations too. Fortunately, it shouldn’t be too difficult to retrofit but what about warranty? For me and many others, V2House for power outages is a much bigger side benefit than a few hundred dollars.
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April 27th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
>> When a serial hybrid is at its least effiecient it can match the efficiency of a
>> parallel hybrid when the parallel hybrid is at its most efficient.
66.2 MPG average from the plug-in Prius.
http://www.google.org/recharge
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April 27th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
How about a built-in solar panel in the roof to trickle charge the battery while it sits in the parking lot!
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
The prius is not a plug in yet. I am referring to what is on the market now. And you post of 66.2mpg makes my point. Wupity doo the new prius gets less than the volt by about 100 mpg.
The only way to make parallel technology get many more miles per gallon than the current prius’s that are on the road is to add battery capacity so that the prius can operate with electric assist more frequently and into the future use all electric more frequently. As battery technology gets better and better the prius will get better and better mpg but the volt will be miles ahead and have to use equivelant mpg since gas will never be used by many. The prius isn’t anywhere close to being able to say that.
66 sucks. Give me 150!!!
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
For the second gen Volt, focus on trimming costs.
Consider replacing the ICE Genset with a replaceable battery like project better place. Then I can hiphop all over the place without ever touching gas.
While we are at it Make the (engine compartment) specs open source so 3rd parties can place the latest technology at owners preference.
Personally I don’t see fuel Cells EVER working in a car, just not efficient enough, & thanks to the 2nd law of thermodynamics never will be!
Must have options to extend EV range.
Oh and 5 seats.
Actually, I really need a 7 seater van. Put two T batteries in it, or a H design! 40kWh useable would do me.
Lets face it, the oil companies need the money, all the expense they are going to building wind farms and CSP arrays
#60
Yes, the radioactive waste can be destroyed, but, you need to build a high temp reactor just to do it! Way cheaper to leave it lying around for a few hundred years.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Regarding carbon fiber, one of the things GM found out with their extensive simulation is that aero plays a much bigger part than mass. Mass is important, but with regenerative braking the greater mass provides more regen. So reducing mass is not necessarily the biggest priority if that reduction comes at a big cost.
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April 27th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
We’ve heard a lot about the battery in the Volt, but I would like to hear more about the electric motor and GM’s plans for improving it in the future. Who is developing it? What is the goal? Why don’t they make it more powerful, when as Tesla showed, the more powerful you make it the more efficient it becomes.
It would be pretty easy to plop in a high performance motor 100 pound motor and make the Volt a muscle car. I see lots of opportunities for future teenage tinkerers.
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
“Zoltek, Hexcel and other carbon-fiber makers already are ramping up production to meet an anticipated surge in demand. But the mainstreaming of carbon fiber as a car-building material depends on prices coming down, and that can only occur with mass-production, said Brian Yerger, an alternative energy analyst at Jesup & Lamont Securities Corp.”
Source:
http://www.zoltek.com/aboutus/news/85/
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Yep 80 OhmExcited more info on the aspects of the car other than the battery would be nice. I mean how many gears.. manual vs auto etc etc etc. Specs on the motor etc etc etc.
Actually right now what I am really looking forward to is hearing about some other car maker come out with their own serial hybrid. Not as many may think just to spite GM but instead to light a fire under them. More competition is only going to be better for the consumer.
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
diesel please
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
# 75 john1701a
The data from Google doesn’t provide the driving cycle used (% of pure electric miles), but let’s make some general comparisons.
The total Google fleet has required 110.6 Wh per mile, and returned 66.2 mpg. For 100 miles, this equates to 11.06 kWh of electricity and 1.51 gallons of gasoline.
The Volt will travel 40 miles on 8 kWh, so for 11.06 kWh it will travel 55.3 miles on electricity (not all in one day, fleet average remember). For the 1.51 gallons of gas, it will travel 75.5 miles.
Therefore, for the same amount of energy, the Volt will travel 130.8 miles to the plug-in Prissy’s 100.
If the fleet has typical daily trips less than 40 miles, the Volt may use little or no gasoline (but up to 200 Wh per mile pure electric).
Let’s look at such an example. Most of the fleet drives less than 40 miles per day (let’s use 30 as an average), however, 22% drive 60 miles per day (78% of drivers commute less than 40 miles per day round-trip). So with 100 vehicles, 78 drive an average of 30 miles on electricity only, while 22 drive an average of 60 miles, with 40 on electricity only, and 20 using the ICE at 50 mpg.
Total electric miles = (78)(30) + (22)(40) = 3220 miles.
Gasoline powered miles = (22)(20) = 440 miles.
Electric energy consumption = 3220/5 = 644 kWh
Gasoline consumption = 440/50 = 8.8 gal
Therefore, for the total fleet, driving a total of 3660 miles,
Electric consumption is 644/3660 = 176 Wh/mile
Gas mileage is 3660/8.8 = 416 mpg
I will leave it to you to calculate the CO2 reductions.
Happy Motoring!
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
#82 omegaman66
It doesn’t have any gears, no gearbox, It’s electric. The ICE only runs a generator.
So all you need is Park Forward and Reverse. You can search back through previous post to find out the specs. From memory the ICE is driving a 53kW genset.
Cheers
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April 27th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
#84 Bill R
Good post. Figures are good :0)
#37 tiger alum
Brilliant concept, I would through in a few shots of people in lines at gas stations as well.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Re: OhmExcited about mass of vehicle and regen
While regen braking I’m sure helps somewhat reduces the need to reduce mass…
… regen braking is not 100% efficient… I think I’ve heard it’s about 80% efficient?
… too much mass and the problem with regen is that it produces too much power too quickly it can’t be stored fast enough back into the battery system so is lost. This is where super/ultra capacitors come into play (they can quickly take in a charge).
… mass still affects performance… the lower the mass the faster the acceleration with the same drive train (as well I’m guessing as stopping ability).
Reducing drag reduces the energy needed to maintain a certain speed… especially at highway speed, so I agree it’s a better place to focus on initially as the aero design only costs money up front to design, but I don’t think adds much if any to the cost of the vehicle. For city driving however I don’t think reducing drag has that much of a paypack, so reducing mass I’m guessing could have a bigger payback for city driving where you are starting and stopping a lot (again because each time you start and stop you only recoup from regen braking some of the energy needed to start moving the car each time).
Carbon fiber however is just too expensive right now I think to justify the savings you’ll get with less mass. Of course they said the same thing about large format Li Ion battery systems… with mass production both will come down in price.
Reducing mass has a chain effect by the way… less mass and you may be able to have a smaller electric motor, and a smaller battery pack, which also reduce the mass, to go the same distance per charge. I have always wondered what the lowest practical mass a vehicle can actually be however before it’s so light that it can be blown off the road (keep in mind unlike race cars, it’s not pratical to have a car that sits so close to the road) or doesn’t have enough to keep the tires gripping the road, especially on wet or snow covered surfaces?
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
#82 omegaman66
I’ve posted some links and information on electric motors and such in the forum at this link:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=252
I believe the motor will be similar to the one in the Fuel Cell Equinox (which Lyle has driven). I believe there is a single gear reduction from the motor to the drive, but it is fixed with no gear changes (no shifting, manual or automatic).
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
The 2nd generation volt needs more variants… Perhaps a station-wagon (Flextreme!) or a subcompact pickup-truck about the size of those Datsuns from the 70s? What about AWD, using in-wheel hub-motors? An AWD Volt wagon could probably compete with both the Prius and also with pretty-much everything that Subaru makes.
Also, more options for rang-extender — I’m sure some (like me) would like a diesel variant. I bet some others would be interested in CNG… Or an ethanol-only high-compression high-efficiency engine. Also, a way to swap the range-extender would be great — and I bet that GM’s dealer network could make tonnes of money by selling (and buying (and reconditioning)) range-extender modules.
And, yes, as long as I’m dreaming, it should have more battery-range… As much as is financially feasible. And different ranges, depending on the needs and budget of the customer.
So, basically, more variants.
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
#87 Jeff M
“Before taking AutoblogGreen and others to the design studio on Monday, Frank Weber, the Vehicle Chief Engineer for the Volt, talked about the effect of aerodynamics and other factors on vehicle efficiency. Driver behavior is clearly a factor for both traditional and electric cars. Beyond that, on traditional cars, factors like mass, aero drag and rolling resistance come into play in that order. In testing and simulation GM has found that for electrically-driven vehicles mass actually drops to third on the list behind aerodynamics and electrical loads with rolling resistance coming in fourth.”
Read more at this link:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/12/12/volt-aero-and-styling-touring-the-e-flex-design-studio-and-gm-w/
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
The Volt gives me the opportunity to get off of the petroleum merry-go-round. Why would I want to get off of the merry-go-round to get on a hydrogen ferris wheel? To put it bluntly, I will not willingly buy a hydrogen fueled car. The reasons have been listed by posters here and elsewhere on the internet. Put the proposed money needed for the hydrogen infrastructure into the existing power grid. The grid upgrade benefits everyone, car owners and non car owners alike, not to mention distribution of renewable energy sources.
Now if they would build the Volt to allow 6′4″ drivers to see out of the windshield. Mr. Wagoner, can you sit comfortably/safely in your product?
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Gen-2 requests can go all over the place.
1. A less expensive 2 seater version.
2. A Crossover version for familes than need more seating.
3. I am not a believer of V2G, because IMHO, a small ICE is not as efficient as a large power plant in producing electricity. However, a 120 V 10-15 Amp AC outlet for short term emergency use would seem to make a lot of sense. For those few times when the power grid fails, it would be nice to power a few lights.
For Gen-1, my main request would be:
For GM to forget about the initial limit of the 2010 Volt to 10,000 units. With so few units available, they will be all be sold or pre-ordered within the first month or so. This type of vehicle is really needed, and asking us to wait another year with gas prices on a never ending upward climb seems really short sighted. If the development cycle is going as well as we are being told it is, why hold back production?
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April 27th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
The whole “two-mode hybrid is good enough for bigger vehicles” idea is a bunch of crap! There is absolutely no reason they can’t extend the E-Flex concept to larger family vehicles. Actually, that age group is likely a big part of the coming PHEV and E-REV market.
AFS Trinity didn’t seem to have any problem getting 40 all electric rnage (AER) out of a Saturn VUE Plug-in Hybrid conversion with ultracaps and a lithium battery.
For those of you who haven’t seen it here’s the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jIaDv5qMaE
I’m betting they just want to see how the Volt sells before they start thinking about other body styles.
As far as premium price for early adoption of a new technology? Duh, thats how it works folks. I’m the proud owner of a $700.00 HDDVD player thas currently worth $20.00, but me and my family have been enjoying true High-Definition movies for two years while our friends keep waiting for the price to drop.
If you want to be one of the first to drive 40 miles every day without a drop of gas in a well designed car by a major auto maker, if you want to help create demand that will ensure this technology stays and grows, if you want to be part of the solution…then you spend your money on a battery instead of oil/gas.
For me…$35,000.00 is a big stretch, BUT I don’t want my 6 year old boy to ever have to drive a gas car.
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April 28th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Jim I,
240V V2x, please. If we are backing up the house and the grid, we may as well do it right. I don’t think people are thinking of V2G from the ICE. I believe it would be from the battery, but the practical implementation would only for short duration loads to keep the grid up in an dire situations. Think of the recent blackouts in Florida, California, and the major one a few years ago in the Northeast. These are tremendously expensive occurances that the power companies would be big $ to for a crutch when they need it.
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April 28th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Well put Eric E
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April 28th, 2008 at 1:36 am
I wonder why is there under the hood a big fat electric motor and is not used? If you have to haul that weight everywhere you might even get a profit from it and we can have an AWD Volt while in electric mode only. Why isn’t that generator used as motor when the vehicle is in electric mode, how much power would add such a setup?
Regarding hydrogen, I don’t there will be needed an infrastructure like we have for oil, you could buy/change the tanks at Wal-Mart like you do with the propane for your bbq.
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April 28th, 2008 at 4:36 am
Greater all-electric range and limited V2G in the case of those few times when the power grid fails : so a 240 V 10-15 Amp AC outlet will suffice in those cases.
In the case of European narrow city streets, a smaller version of the Volt of size like the Chevvy Aveo or the Opel Corsa should have a large success.
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April 28th, 2008 at 4:57 am
Hydrogen is OUT. Let’s move forward with EV and RE EVs and forget about Hydrogen. Soon, everyone will forget about this ridiculousness and move on. Or…are we supposed to believe that 100 or 200+ mile range Evs are not possible nor is the infrastructure to support them?
How are we to believe that H2 is the answer? This is insane.
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April 28th, 2008 at 5:26 am
1. BEV with 100+ AER
2. E-Flex in Small econobox. Think Scion Xb previous version.
3. Wheelmotors to raise efficiency.
4. Solar hood, roof, trunk lid for charging while at work.
5. Large volumes of cars for sale.
6. BEV 2 seater with 250 AER.
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April 28th, 2008 at 5:45 am
Grizzly, Hydrogen is out. It would be best to invest in making the battery have a higher range, than wasting all this money on H2 research. But companies (including GM) seem hellbent on doing it anyway. Isn’t the government paying them to do this?
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April 28th, 2008 at 5:48 am
Next Gen LiIon, if available (nano)
AWD. hub motors, high eff
Plastic, Low-cost solor, or even paint, if avail….prob too far in future….what would be the performance of this? Is it practical in the area available?
E100 range extender w/ 800 mi range…
Fold down rear and side seat
The look of the concept
Mr. Fusion range extender
Towable/optional/rentable range extender?
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April 28th, 2008 at 6:16 am
93 Eric E…..
You said, “The whole “two-mode hybrid is good enough for bigger vehicles” idea is a bunch of crap! There is absolutely no reason they can’t extend the E-Flex concept to larger family vehicles. Actually, that age group is likely a big part of the coming PHEV and E-REV market.”
“AFS Trinity didn’t seem to have any problem getting 40 all electric range (AER) out of a Saturn VUE Plug-in Hybrid conversion with ultracaps and a lithium battery.” ….YOU’RE RIGHT!!!
And, once more, the evidence that GM’s electric drive train engineering group “gets it” is the CADILLAC PROVOQ concept (NOT Evoq, as some here have mistakenly said; the Evoq was a 1999 NorthStar-powered concept).
The Plug-in Caddy Provoq SUV was announced just this January. It’s designed with a 9KWH Li-Ion battery to go 20 miles on battery alone. Scale its battery up to 16KWh, substitute a gas/ethanol ICE/Gen for its fuel cell range extender & ditch the 2 huge hydrogen tanks— and you’ll have an E-Flex SUV good for ~35 miles AER! Judge for yourself— GM gives the Provoq design details at…..
http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/experience/news_provoq.jsp
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April 28th, 2008 at 6:43 am
I agree — being able to use the backup generator would be a wonderful feature. The power was out fr 3 days in January, and my house nearly froze — even in the mild Southwestern Virginia climate. I’d much rather plug my car into a transfer-switch, than drain my pipes!
Having a power-take-off (pun intended) for this kind of emergency-use would make a 2nd generation Volt a must-have for those who like to be independent during local crises, even without AWD!
Currently, the Prius has the edge here:
http://www.priups.com/riddle/answer-1.htm
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April 28th, 2008 at 6:47 am
nasaman:
Thanks for clearing up the Evoq thing. I was wondering what that was…..
The only problem with your statement about “the engineering group gets it” comment is that if managment decides to go in a different direction, engineering will do what they are told to do.
The only way that management will “get it” is if:
1. We keep the pressure on at this site. It is obvious that Lyle has been able to get the attention of GM. I am sure they are using this site to gauge public reaction to some of their press releases. We simply have to tell them over and over that E-REV and high range BEV vehicles is what we are looking for!
2. We vote with our checkbooks. If the oil companies are going to buy them off and try to push them in the direction of Hydrogen, we simply reject it, just as we are now telling them that we have had enough with gasoline based vehicles for transportation. If we do not buy these vehicles, they will not make them. SUV’s are starting to pile up at the dealerships. That, in turn, is going to make their dealer network start to scream back to GM to fix the problem!
I am rooting for GM to get the E-REV design right and out the door in quantity. But if they don’t, my hard earned money will go to the company that makes what I want to buy. I am done having to “settle for what you have”!
GM, can you hear me now????
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April 28th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Luke:
A concept site hardly give the Prius the “edge”…………..
I still believe that using a car’s generator should still be for emergency use only to power a few necessary items for the house, like using it to power the furnace during a power failure in winter. But I just do not see the value of using my car to help the power company with rolling blackouts. The wear and tear on my car would be a lot greater than the $0.10/kwh they would pay me!
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April 28th, 2008 at 6:58 am
I’m not sure what drove Burns to speculate on a fuel-cell version of the Volt, but remember, he’s the godfather of the Autonomy (remember that?)
I agree with the others who want to see more electric only range in Gen 2, but looking out to gen 4 or 5, how about evolving the EREV to use the Autonomy’s “skateboard” architecture. Coupe, sedan, minivan, SUV — take your pick. The biggest issues would be a common location for the ICE gen set, which would necessarily protrude above the skateboard, and the aerodynamics, which as we know have been a huge factor in the Volt. Ideally, further li-ion developments, such as the nanowire cathode, will yield stronger batteries that make CD less of an issue.
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April 28th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Weight always matters. Maybe not as much as aero at higher speeds as aero does not matter as much at lower speeds. Rolling friction is a function of mass. When you climb a hill (or any incline) the mass of the car is very important – ask any truck driver. Notice that race cars are all lightened to provide the highest performance. In stop and go city driving, mass is a killer on the battery. Think City body is plastic for several reasons, one being reduced mass. Hauling 3000 lbs everywhere you go is ridiculous, get rid of the fat please. Phase II, 2000 lbs.
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April 28th, 2008 at 7:32 am
#98 Grizzly said “Hydrogen is OUT.” I agree for most of the USA, but it may be a better choice in China. The Volt is a car for a world-wide market. H2 also may be a good choice in the USA where fuel for a fleet comes from a central depot. Different situations reflect different priorities, and where energy security or lowest emissions are at the top, H2 may (arguably) be the better choice.
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April 28th, 2008 at 7:46 am
#108 RB
If lower emissions are important, the EV wins every time. H2 is a energy carrier just like a battery, so why in hell would you want to waste energy turning electricity into H2 and back again?
It just doesn’t make sense. Especially in China where there is none to waste (rolling blackouts are common).
Grizzly is right.
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April 28th, 2008 at 8:05 am
I think the biggest benefit in my opinion on a V2G would be a high speed recharger. Being able to plug in at a metered charge station (be it a 110V or 220V) and recharge in 10 to 15 min. would be a huge benefit. Then extend the range to 200 or 250 miles on a charge. I think that would allow us to eliminate the gas issue all together.
of course if we’re talking dreams I think a small Nuclear reactor with a 10 year core would be best.
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April 28th, 2008 at 8:49 am
I can’t even get through all these comments, they are so negative.
Why is it that when people ignorant of the current technology in the Volt talk about “battery operated golf carts,” Volt fans react as if hit by lightening.
But someone brings up fuel cells, and THAT is a pie-in-the-sky illusion? Folks, there are more fuel cell cars on the road at this very minute, than Chevy Volts.
Millions of pounds of hydrogen are already produced every year around the world. We just don’t use it in cars at the moment.
For every technological barrier that people have brought up about hydrogen, I can cite two things; one, a similar barrier existed 36 months ago for an E-Rev; and two, there is an R and D “arms race” going to on resolve it.
An E-REV concept may last 3, 5, or 10 years. I doubt it will last all 10 before some alternative kicks it to the curb too. We just have to wait and see.
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April 28th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Others have already mentioned my wish list for the Volt v2; lower price, greater range and 5-seats. Wheel motors would be great but not required.
I must admit the Wheel & Driver interview with the GM VP has further lessened my enthusiasm for the Volt V1; yet another feature that was is not going to be delivered. The original Volt was described as having an 1.0 3-cyl ICE. Now we find it is going to be more like a 2.0 4-cyl ICE.
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April 28th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Jim I @ 105,
April 28th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Gee … am I the only person here that knows that you don’t need hydrogen reserves to run a fuel cell?
They didn’t say anything about hydrogen, people. My guess is that they’d use the fuel cell with gasoline (with built-in microreactor to feed the fuel cell). Major auto-manufacturers (Nissan, GM, Toyota, etc) are investing $100M+ in this fuel cell technology that uses gasoline instead of hydrogen. Compared to internal combustion engines it produces half the carbon emissions and is 3 times more fuel efficient while using the same fuel: gasoline. This means the ICE generator would be replaced with a fuel cell / micro reactor, that would provide 100+mpg instead of 50 mpg, using normal gasoline or better yet: Bio-fuel.
Sheesh – Some of you are all getting your panties up in a bunch over something you know nothing about.
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April 28th, 2008 at 10:07 am
for more info google innovateks microreactor. They’re just one company involved in the no-hydrogen-storage fuel cell technology.
Then you have carbon fuel cells, and methane fuel cells, and fuel cells that run directly off propane. Fuel cells do not necessarily need a “hydrogen infrastructure” if done right.
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April 28th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Dave Austin-
We don’t want to use gasoline. We want to displace gasoline with electricity.
The Volt is a means to that end and a fuel cell solution just delays the much needed developement of advanced electrical storage devises like the EEstor Ultracapacitors and silicone nanowire batteries.
“From gas friendly to gas free. That’s todays Chevrolet”
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April 28th, 2008 at 11:40 am
#113 Dave Austin
I’m one of those who did NOT know about microreactor fuel cell technology. Thanks for the information!
#115 Eric E.
It is true that we don’t want to use any gasoline at all. But, getting to that point is a long way off. It will be necessary to take many small and incremental steps before reaching that goal. So, let not be so critical of taking those steps, including the microreactor fuel cell technology.
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April 28th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Dave Austin… you may be the one who doesn’t know as much as you think…
When GM says “Fuel Cell” and forget to mention “Hydrogen” it’s implied. It’s what they’ve been making and pushing (partly because they had to put on the road so many H2 fuel cell vehicles this year as part of agreement the automakers agreed to when they were allowed to kill their EV programs the last time CA’s ZEV mandate was substantially changed).
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April 28th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
#4 agreed.
It would be nice if they built it so that it would be easily modified by the “Tuner” crowd.
Just plug in your laptop and change the power/driving characteristics with a simple program that didn’t overwrite the base control code.
Or, for that matter, user changeable driving configurations accessible from the on board screen.
If you want to have a car sell like hotcakes, make it marketable to those people who like to modify their cars, as well as Joe Schmoe who thinks a car only exists for transportation purposes.
The best of both worlds.
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April 28th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Dave Austin #113:
If GM is working on fuel cells that operate on anything other than Hydrogen, they sure do not talk about it. Here is a link from the Chevy.com website:
http://www.chevrolet.com/fuelcell/?evar10=HP_promo_right_fuelcell
If Larry Burns was making some kind of big announcement, he sure missed the mark, don’t you think?
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April 28th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Hydrogen or fuel cells I should say are so far in the future before they are practical that it isn’t even funny. People were complaining about the price of the volt when it went above 30K! What do you think they are going to do and say when it tops 100K???
Fuel cells still suck. Somebody refute that statement.
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April 28th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I agree with one thing “Some of you are all getting your panties up in a bunch”. Fuel cell as a range extender is the perfect solution. The hydrogen would be used in a steady regulated process and would not need throttling. Where is the infrastructure? Just monitor the National Hydrogen Association. http://www.hydrogenassociation.org/general/fuelingSearch.asp
Making hydrogen will cause more pollution? Maybe, but with companies like Plug Power, Inc. working with Honda on a “Home Energy Station” which generates hydrogen from natural gas more options become available. http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/owning/home-energy-station/
Won’t hydrogen be dangerous to be driving around with? Depends weather you think it’s less dangerous to drive around with 12 gal. of gasoline instead.
I was one of the first to buy a DVD player when only 10 movies existed. I will be one of the first to buy an E-Flex vehicle when available. I know I paid a premium for the right to be one of the first, but I saw it as an opportunity to embrace a change for the better.
GM, keep your focus and timeline. You will succeed!
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April 28th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
As I understand the situation, ALL fuel cells operate on hydrogen.
The microreactor mentioned in the Dave Austin #113 posting is a hand-sized device (weighs about 1 lb.) that can reportedly “convert virtually any liquid fuel into hydrogen, producing a portable hydrogen stream for use in adjoining fuel-cells”.
Imagine a Volt or other E-Flex car with a tank with 6+ gallons fuel capacity. The microreactor converts the gas, bio-fuel or whatever to hydrogen and fed directly to a fuel cell (instead of an ICE). The fuel cell generates electricty that is stored in a battery or ultracapacitor until needed to propel the car. This is dynamite!
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April 28th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Mr. Fusion. Just keep it under 88mph.
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April 28th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
I would like to see 3 things:
1) 5 seater; I plan on having 3 kids.
2) A choice of battery sizes/ranges. Maybe a of 30, 40, or 60 mile range. One size does not fit all.
3) Lower the cost. Part of that can be providing a 30 mile range option for those that don’t drive very far to work.
As far as fuel cells, I don’t believe that hydrogen will be the fuel of choice for a number of reasons already stated.
But really I think that fuel cells run counter to the philosophy and beauty of the Volt. That is most of the time you run only on electric but use a *CHEAP* range extender to 1) limit the size/cost of the batter you need and 2) Eliminate range anxiety.
Fuel cell are far more expensive than any IC engine, and will be for quite some time, so you would be adding a lot of capital cost to a part of the car that no one really wants to use. That makes no sense.
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April 28th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
RB #108
For fleet vehicles, you just rapid recharge them. As NZ stated it is a complete waste of energy to produce H2 only to have to turn it back into electrons again. As Frank weber mentioned even the first gen Volt at 240V can have 1/2 it’s range on a 1 hour charge and this will only improve. For fleet vehicles, you have a few more than you need and those not out on duty are charging back at the depot.
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April 28th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Rahsiid #100
If it isn’t the govt then it could be big oil or both. The flip side is that GM has publicly stated that they can’t predict what the future will bring for vehicles. It sure does seem that electricity is it, but things change. That said I can understand diversifying and being sure footed and ready for an ever changing world.
Rick Wagoner, GM’s chairman gives an outstanding interview on
Autoline Detroit, as well as discussing the Volt here…
part 1
http://tinyurl.com/57tzky
part 2
http://tinyurl.com/5q4cxy
part 3
http://tinyurl.com/5e6f44
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April 28th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
#123 Nathan. I see it quite differently.
The beauty of the E-Flex concept is the critical components (fuel, engine & battery) can change over time as technology evolves. And, the mix of those components can be based upon the needs of any particular country. In the U.S., for example, our infrastructure is based upon gasoline. In Europe, it is diesel. Who knows what will be needed in China and elsewhere?
Make no mistake about it, technology will evolve and perhaps faster than many might imagine.
The Volt v1 will have a lithium-ion battery. Only time will tell about the Volt v2. It could potentially be a new generation of lithium-ion batteries, an ultracapacitor or something entirely new. Battery technology might eventually evolve to the point where it could entirely replace the ICE. Who knows?
The Volt v1 will have a small ICE; the latest reports suggest a 2.0 litre 4-cyl ICE. The Volt v2 might have something entirely different; diesel, stirling engine, fuel cell or whatever. There have been several other potential engines mentioned on this website. Who knows which of those technologies may become commercially viable and make it to market.
.
The point is — Who knows what tomorrow may bring? I encourage research into all technologies. May the best products make it to market!
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April 28th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I guess that this is encouraging, for all of the reasons mentioned above. I have been as guilty as anyone in agitating for my pet Gen. 2 project, an e-flex small pickup or other commercial “gofer” vehicle.
Even so I have to say, let’s get the first one on the road before we take our eye off the ball:
“Keep It Simple, Stupid”
“What ain’t there don’t give you no trouble (or cost you no money!)
“Simplicate and add lightness”
“Small is beautiful”
“Less is more”
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April 28th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
#126 Estero
I agree with everything you are saying. I too like the flexibility of the different components. Diesel, different kinds of engines, batteries, etc…
My comment was only about fuel cells in the volt today and in the medium future. A fuel cell today will just drive up the cost of something that I don’t want to use. I would rather them improve the battery, put in a smaller IC engine, and improve the cost. I like the idea of different engines but they need to keep the capital costs down.
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April 28th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
#128 Nathan We’re really on the same page.
I really like the concepts of a fuel cell — provided the transportation & storage issues can be resolved. It is likely to be several more years of research and testing before we know if the microreactor technology can address those issues.
I’ve seen reports that ICE’s are 20-30% fuel efficient. Fuel cells are being reported to be 80% fuel efficient. From this standpoint alone, fuel cells makes alot of sense. If the Volt were to have a fuel capacity of 6 U.S. gallons with either an ICE or fuel cell, then the range of the fuel cell should be 3-4 times that of the ICE using the same amount of fuel.
I have been concerned for quite some time about using an ICE in any version of the Volt, especially after it was disclosed the Volt battery would be discharged to no less than 30% SOC but then only recharged to only 40% SOC instead of 80% SOC as some of us had originally thought. This means the frequency of starting/stopping the ICE (especially on long trips) is much more than I had originally imagined. Will this cause increased wear and tear on the ICE? Will this result in decreased fuel range? I don’t know, but I’m concerned because what I had always understood from my teen years about the effects of starting/stopping an ICE.
The frequent starting/stopping of a fuel cell is not a problem to the best of my knowledge.
It is obviously too late to incorporate the microreactor technology in the Volt v1 but perhaps the Volt v2 is a possibility. Who knows?
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April 28th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
#128 Nathan:
Second the motion.
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April 28th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
One more thing on fuel cells. It is my understanding that the cost of manufacturing fuel cells have dropped dramatically these past few years. Are they now competitive with an ICE? I don’t know but would imagine they still have a ways to go.
Finally, I would imagine that the size of a fuel cell whose only function is to recharge a Volt battery or ultracapacitor would be much small and fuel efficient than one that would replace an ICE in today’s cars.
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April 28th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
The one thing that is probably most important to me in a second generation is the option of getting a station wagon/5 door hatchback model. I find that these vehicle styles are probably the most effective for everyday use. If you have kids you can easily toss a couple of strollers in the back or if you need to haul something you can fold down the rear seats and stack it full to the roof. I really don’t want this too be over looked. Up here in Canada, one of the most successul and highest selling cars over the last few years has been the Mazda 3. This is partly due to the fact that they built a solid car, with a cheap price, that is fun and fuel efficient and available as a sedan or hatchback wagon. It sells like crazy, maybe a Volt hatch would as well.
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April 28th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I just spent another 20 minutes trying to start my generator in preparation for hurricane season. Because my lazy, undisceplined glutemous didn’t start it every couple of months, it won’t start I’ll have to take it apart to clean the fuel path. Please, all people that have not live through a prolonged power outage hold your unseasoned comments. I want a friggin backup source that I know will start and since the Volt will have this plus tons more than my house needs, I WANT it in my Volt and with enough power (240V & 30A or more). I will gladly pay for this option, and I am confident that many, many others feel the same way.
Practical V2G in any near term scenarios would not include running the ICE, nor storing energy from intermittent renewables to be returned to the grid, nor fees per KWh provided back to the grid. If it comes to fruition, it will be to dynamically adjust recharge rates and/or times if needed by grid load or to stabilize the grid during an exceptional occurance. Just like programs to shut down high load appliances in excdptionally high demand situations, you would be credited a monthly amount for the availability of your Volt’s energy. Currently, the power companies pay a LOT of $ for these capabilities from other sources. Of course everyone will be free not to participate, but you would be missing out on basically free money.
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April 28th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Estero #133
You still have the infrastructure problem and all the energy it takes to produce hydrogen. By that time we’ll have rapid recharge batts and and AERs of 400+ mi. Both of those will happen before fool sells take root. Again H2 is DOA.
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April 28th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I vote for a station wagon version for Volt 2.0. My wife has a 2000 VW Passat wagon and it works fabulous for everything we’ve ever needed a car to do. I’m willing to give up a little bit of aero perfection for the enhanced utility. Practical functionality is worth far more than flashy sex appeal to me.
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April 29th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Not that you are still reading omegaman, but I’ll give you just a few examples of why hydrogen and fuel cells don’t “suck.”
U of MN is developing an ethanol reformer that obtains hydrogen from ethanol. Considering we are ramping up ethanol production, using that more efficiently in a fuel cell rather than combusting it is a good idea.
Purdue has developed a system to make platinum alloys, rather than use pure platinum, for the catalyst. Since platinum is the expensive part, cutting the amount you need to a fraction of the original amount will have a similar impact on the price of the fuel cell.
Ohio U is working on an ammonia-based hydrogen system. DOE has said in writing that ammonia would be something they would like to pursue, IF you could split ammonia for low cost. Ohio U has developed a way, and the company they affiliated with is building a working proof of concept.
Some university I can’t remember is developing super-enzymes to digest plant matter into H2. Not only would that have a dramatic impact on the fuel supply system, but it’s carbon neutral.
The volt will hit the road, and I hope the drivetrain displaces all cars with only IC engines by 90 percent, within two vehicle cycles, or about 20 years. At that point, we live very well.
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April 29th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Finally got time to give my wishlist for future editions of the Volt.
GM, my foremost, no. 1 wish is more all-electric range, hands down. I’ll take whatever you can safely achieve whether it be 5 miles more of additional all-electric range, or hundreds of miles more. As mentioned on this site before, that nano-wire research currently being done, or even the EEstor capacitors, (if they are indeed real), are things I hope you are seriously looking into for future advancement. Any increase in all-electric range is a plus IMO, and would be greatly appreciated.
Secondly, I would like to see the E-Flex platforms expand into other vehicles such as other cars of all sizes, SUV’s, small pick-ups, and Crossovers. Prepare a proliferation of the E-Flex architecture vehicles across your line-up. I understand that for your large pick-ups and SUV’s, perhaps clean diesels and/or your 2-Mode Hybrid are better fits for those applications, but by and large, the E-Flex could appropriately serve just about all of the rest.
Last, not knowing how the first version of the Volt interface will be, I would just like to suggest that you keep everything as simple and user-friendly as possible. There is a beauty in simplicity. A few years ago BMW offered this extremely complex electronic interface in their 7 series called i-drive (I believe that was the name). Many were turned off to the vehicle due to this overly complex system that was thought to be a wonderful, high tech feature by BMW. Just cautioning, there’s a thin line between being useful and unique vs. complex and bizarre. Resist the temptation to go complex.
As always, Thanks for hearing our thoughts and requests, and keep up the good work!
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April 29th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Will these Volt have dive-by-wire and steer-by-wire technologies ?
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April 29th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
#1,2 and 3: I would like more all-electric range. (big surprise there)
#4: I would like more efficient backup generation.
#5: I would like a modular performance design that allows easy upgrade of generators, electric motors, and other parts. In the end I would like to be able to tune the electric car to meet my idea of how it should perform.
#6: I would like to see options for more advanced electronics / computer functions in the cabin… it should be something that is modular, upgradeable, and something that people can leave out if they want something as simple as possible while others can add-on capabilities.
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April 30th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Although it would surely increase electric capacity requirements, the drive by wire concept, i.e. a Joystick instead of a steering wheel, would propel the sheer “cool” factor over the top. The concept is proven highly reliable in our most sophisticated aircraft and would reduce injuries from collisions dramatically.
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April 30th, 2008 at 11:45 am
#142
But where would you hang all the other controls? Wipers, light dimmer, radio and speed controls. Joy sticks sound good, but I want to stick to a steering wheel. I guess I am a little old fashion about some things.
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April 30th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Hi guys,
Just a quick question to all the Volt fans in the know. Will the Volt have “transmission creep” like a ICE car? I was going to install a high stall tourqe converter in my vette and drove my friends vette with one. I could not stand letting of the gas petal in heavy traffic and not creeping forward. It sucked so bad to have to hit the gas to move just 2 feet forward and then brake over and over again. Will the Volt be like a golf cart or a ICE car? No transmission creep would be a deal breaker for me.
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April 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Tim:
You get forward motion with an ICE based car, because the engine is idling at 800 – 1000 RPM. So you actually have to hold the car back with the brakes, or keep the clutch pedal down to stop the transmission from turning the drive axle.
On an electric car, there will be no power to the motor when the car is stopped, so yes I would assume there will be some learning curve in driving the car from a dead stop.
But that should hardly be a deal breaker!!!!
Now, $48K is a deal breaker………………
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April 30th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
1) I’m really glad they are already working on the next generation. It’s critical that the development pipeline stays active and constantly improves the design.
2) My most wanted feature for the the Volt Rev 2 – LOWER PRICE!
3) My second most wanted feature – a small station wagon, like the Subaru Outback only not so ugly.
4) I’ll never buy a car with fuel cells. I’ll also never buy a pure EV. The ICE based EREV hits the nail on the head.
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May 4th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Why do they have to have such a big engine to charge the battery??? They need to make it very small and very fuel efficient…
Possiblly a ceramic, 1 or 2 cylinder engine??? It would be nice if one day we dont have to rely on foreign oil at all…
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May 11th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Mark
I used to be dead set against fuel cells as well. It inherently keeps us dependent on a fuel infrastructure that will inevitably be controlled by multi-billion-dollar corporations.
Consider, however, the option of using solar panels or solar concentrator mounted on your garage roof to make your own hydrogen. Over the course of a week you could store hydrogen to fill up your tank on Sunday night with enough to run for the (average) week. The hydrogen infrastructure out there becomes your backup plan, not your addiction; there just in case you run short before the end of the week (or whatever time it takes to make enough for your use).
A hydrogen economy will be useful to couple h2 pipelines with electric utility lines (electricity would be distributed via superconducting wires kept cool basically for free by the h2 flowing through the well-insulated pipelines). This would reduce the electricity currently being lost due to our current electric transmission lines. This change alone would “give back” 7% of our nations power generation capacity. That is 7 times more than solar currently provides us.
And don’t forget that you want vehicles used by public services like police, ambulance and fire to have no limits to their range and the only way to do this is either to use Ethanol ICE for those vehicles or fuel cells and an H2 infrastructure. Ethanol in the short term, yes, but H2 has to be part of the long term answer.
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