More Thoughts on Th!nk versus Volt
Forbes has published a discussion of the new Th!nk City announcement and rolls in comparisons to the Chevy Volt.
For one thing, the author suggests Th!nk might be going down the same path GM took with the EV-1, a low-range 2-seat EV, and could wind up a failure because of limited acceptance. In contrast however, the director of the U.S. venture cap firm funding Th!nk North America suggests that by the time the Volt hits the roads the five-seater Ox will be available. That car is expected to go 0 to 60 in 8.5 secs and have a 120 mile range. Cost, unknown. (shown above).
The Th!nk city EV in production now is a 2 seater with an option for a minuscule 2 + 2 seat and is made out of plastic. It’s hopeful $25,000 price tag also doesn’t include a battery leasing fee which is over $300 in Europe now, but could be "half that" in the U.S. according to the VC firm.
Source (Forbes )
[Catch me on NBC NY Nightly News 7PM TONIGHT 4/22 talking about this site and the Volt]
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47 Responses to “More Thoughts on Th!nk versus Volt”
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April 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 am
There will be some small market for the current TH!NK vehicle, and the Ox will be more so, but if they are manufacturing in Europe, it will just be too expensive to import them to the US.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:54 am
My wife will not drive a car the size of the Think in LA trafficShe would drive a Volt. She is a poster girl for the Volt concept, as she cannot abide the limited range of a Think type car. Somebody here coined a good name for the fear of running out of battery, but I can’t remember it. Range anxiety, or some such? 99% of her driving would be within the range of the Think, but she absolutely does not want the aggravation fo planning around it. Game over for us.
I might try it for my work car, if it was under the GM umbrella. Despite what I might say here from time to time, I am really motivated to do my bit to help with the survival of GM, so no Think for me either.
Someone yesterday suggested an all electirc Volt. Alas, I am afraid that the Volt is too big and too heavy to get to 100+ miles all electric range, but the idea sounds better every day.
Does anyone think that the equivalent Mitsu might be more of a real car than the Think? Even so, more power to Think as leaders and innovators.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
The Think Ox as pictured above could have a small niche following. Trouble is, a niche following may not be enough to make the product viable in the U.S. As Noel mentioned above, range anxiety is too much of a consideration to ignore for most people, (myself included). The Volt so nicely addresses that concern, and removes the fear of running out of power from the equation. I wish companies like Think well, but I would have to say that the Volt is hands down the preferred of the two, if I had to choose.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Noel, #2 says, “Does anyone think that the equivalent Mitsu might be more of a real car than the Think? Even so, more power to Think as leaders and innovators.”
I don’t know if the Mitsu is an equivalent car or not, but I would buy it before I bought a Th!nk. The reason is simple: Mitsubishi has a much longer track record here in the USA than Th!nk.
——————
A car that is strictly a BEV will not have/make a huge impact in terms of number of cars sold. Range anxiety is a real problem. IMHO the Volt’s technology is FINALLY the correct technology to produce. I hope other car manufactures give GM some competition. I don’t see myself buying a Volt during the first 10,000. Maybe in 2012 - 2015 when the price comes down to where the masses can afford it. At that time, I will see what the competition has to offer.
——————
Noel, #2, You also say are are motivated to help GM. I understand that sentiment, my friend. But at what cost? A $10K - $20K premium? I think you and I would miss that amount of money.
The Volt needs to be priced correctly for wide adoption, otherwise it is a niche product. I truly hope GM avoids selling it as a niche product.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I don’t know if everyone’s financial plan is as this one is, but my plan is to win the lottery and then buy everyone from GM-Volt.com a volt!
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Ack, should read “is as sound as this one”
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Sorry if I spoke too soon. I had not seen the thread below. I was commenting on the Think OX. A large part of my commute is on the freeway. A 62 mph top speed will not do it on the LA freeways. The Think City is a non-starter for me.
Rashiid, #4.
“But at what cost?”, indeed. Even my goodwill only stretches so far. I agree that your analysis of the pricing issue is quite right. Our family has a long tradition of Chevy loyalty, and we would go out of our way to drive one. But, if you look at the mix of cars on the streets of SoCal, it is clear that we are in a small minority. There are not enough of us to make the Volt a success.
When the projected price got to $48k, or whatever it was, I said on another thread the other day that we were out of the game at that point. We are not going to just blindly pay the price, no matter what. I guess we just have to wait it out, see what happens with tax incentives and the price of gas, and decide when the situation clarifys itself.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Autobloggreen’s Top 20 most exciting green cars we wish we could buy today:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/22/top-20-most-exciting-green-cars-we-wish-we-could-buy-today/
hint: #1 was the Volt.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Here in San Antonio some of our road ways are 70 to 75 miles per hour. To cross town from city limit to ctiy limit we are looking at 40 + miles. This does not include subdivisions located on the fringes of the city limits. As I mentioned in my last reply, we have 100+ weather in the summer and driving with out A/C is not an option. These autos have their place but as far as I’m concerned it is very limited. VOLT seems to answer most of these questions and untill they prove me wrong, this unit will be my next auto.
Price: look at Computers, LCD tV’s and other electronic equipment. When they first came out all the average person could do was look and wish. We”ll get there just hold your horses.
God Bless America !!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Why is no one is talking about quick charge technology, if you want to drive eclectic only car, even with a longer distance per charge, even if it 200 or 300 miles per charge, if you want to drive cost to cost, then what?
We should also talking about quick charge / quick charge stations.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
This car dosen’t work for anyone who isn’t a family with a 2nd car.
I wish them the best, but what is there plan for people who only own 1 car. Rent a car for long trips?
I need a total solution, not to mention the Volt has 2 power sources for the motor, once i have that, the idea of getting stuck because my battery fried, or my timing belt went will seem archaic.
I’m holding out for the best powertrain design i have yet to hear of to date.
As far as the price, i’m driving a Honda CRV, so an extra 10 grand to never burn a drop of gas again(for the most part) is worth it to me. Unless your driving a Kia, Hyundai, or a super-sub compact the price shouldn’t be an issue.
If your driving a Infiniti, Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Lexus, Jaguar, Audi, Volkswagen, Range Rover, Cadillac, you’ve probably paid as much for your current car.
There is alot of guys on here acting like 35-40K is a ridiculos price for a car. Take a look out your window on the way home and count how many 40K+ cars you see on the way home. I’m sure it will be close to 50%.
Here’s the problem most of us are motivated by money, if not it’s a close 2nd. That being said most of us wouldn’t buy a 35K luxury sedan. That dosen’t mean that represents the majority of people.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:08 pm
I am old enough to remember when a digital watch cost more than $500. Today they put them in our cereal boxes.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
The problem with the original Th!nk is that it is essentially the SMART of BEVs. It is too small and w/ no RE and a limited top speed it won’t be worth the money. With EVs scaling everything down to minuscule doesn’t really serve a purpose and detracts from the utility of the vehicle.
As someone pointed out, not only will it be expensive if it’s produced in Europe, but this company doesn’t have economies of scale of GM or even Mitsu, and no dealer network for servicing etc. I don’t think this car will do any better than the Yugo.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I would never buy a pure EV. The 120 mile range of the Ox is too much. Take it down to a 40 mile range and add an ICE generator.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Totally irrelevant I know, but this thread reminds me that last Friday I was in Oslo and saw more EVs in one day than I ever have before: 2 Th!nks, 1 Twike and a Kewet Buddy out on the roads (made me miss my Berlngo sitting in the rain back in London!).
Every little heps!
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Range anxiety or gas price anxiety. Take your pick.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:41 pm
the article states that the EV-1 had limited availability. Really? Why were owners begging to keep theirs? Why did GM destroy all EV-1’s?
Why are consumers begging for a car like the EV-1???
WTF is wrong with you GM???
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Well it is a perfect car for, as its name suggests, *CITY* driving. You would be hard pressed to go anywhere in a city for more than 100 miles and not be able to plug in to recharge. Also, average speeds are well below 60 mph.
For longer commutes and higher speed roads it is not as well suited, so no point attacking it. It is not built for that.
The numbers I found in the news is below $20K car and $100-$200/month batt lease. Here is the problem. We can lease many smaller cars for $100-$200/month without a large $20K downpayment. Since smaller cars tend to be more efficient, one can get a lot of driving for $20K worth of gas.
So you could get a Smart, Toyota Echo, Honda Fit, etc. which can go faster on highway and have a longer range.
So this leasing battery for $100-$200 month is a deal killer. Unless you actually get something for all that money after a period of time. For instance, say I pay monthly $150 for battery lease and after 5 years I own the battery. Then if I didn’t abuse it and it still works for another 10 years then the battery cost wouldn’t be that bad. However, if I have to keep paying this lease for 20 years, 20 x 12 x $150 = $36K
Why the heck am I paying $36K for a battery alone??????
To be fair, they clearly haven’t finalized the pricing, so we have to wait. Clearly they have to limit the lease costs as everyone hates them.
As for the car tiself, I think it is a great complement to Volt. They are clearly different designs for different markets - zero competition. So for the time being GM and Th!nk are really helping each other to develop this market. Consider someone afraid of EVs but willing to try City car. Then he is impressed and upgrades to Volt. Also, you get a Volt and are impressed so much you want another EV for wife, kids, etc. So you get them a City car. Perfect synergy.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I don’t understand this obsession with performance (top speed) and range. No one is suggesting City is a primary all purpose car. It is clearly an auxiliary car. As such it is perfect.
For shorter trips to a local shopping center, or to go to movies, restaurants, etc. we are generally talking 20-30 miles one way. So 100 mile range is more than enough.
Also, we are generally taking slower 30-50 mph limit roads. Maybe you take highway for a short distance of 5-10 miles, no more. So again the top speed of 60 mph is plenty.
As a 2nd vehicle for smaller errands and short trips this thing is perfect.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:03 pm
I looked up the Saturn Flextreme Concept stuff. I would be more interested in that than a Think, or a Volt.
It’s a diesel E REV. More modern design. By the time it’s available, it will be second generation, positively no doubt it will be less cost to buy than a Volt.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:43 pm
At some point GM will surely consider licensing the Volt technology to other makers (like Toyota does for Ford’s Escape & Mariner hybrids). Th!nk may be too small to be a good candidate, but range anxiety is such a pervasive concern of most EV buyers I would expect several other companies (maybe even Tesla and their volume-manufacturing partner for the next Tesla model) would eventually be interested.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Think is simply trying to cash in on the hoopla about electric cars.
It’s pretty obvious that the reaon they aren’t building a Volt type vehicle is because they can’t. It’s also pretty telling when the Think guys best argument is that the next model years down the road will be a good one. Of course, with respect to comparison with the EV-1, someone should clue this guy in on the fact that his future super 8.5 sec, 120 mile range EV is pretty much exactly what the EV-1 was like. That’s actually pretty discouraging that someone at the head of an EV company seems to not know very much about EVs.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
why are people attacking this car for not being able to achieve super-long distances? “Oh, it can’t go 500 miles on a charge, instant deal killer in my books”. It is NOT made to go on long commutes. It is made for CITY driving. Going to the store, going to work, and traveling around the city. If you want something that can go long distances, you have the option of the Volt, or renting a gasoline car. As for most people, 100 miles on a charge is more then enough.
I hate when a small portion of the population thinks electric cars are “useless” and “there is no point to even producing them” when electric cars can’t meet 100% of THEIR needs, when the general population who wants electric cars KNOW it is PERFECT.
So, take your pick…either a) long distance range while paying for gas. b) 100 mile range, 8 hours to charge while your sleeping, and paying something like 1-2 cents per mile..AND..being able to budget finances a lot easier.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:38 pm
#11 JPhillips
“There is alot of guys on here acting like 35-40K is a ridiculos price for a car. Take a look out your window on the way home and count how many 40K+ cars you see on the way home. I’m sure it will be close to 50%.”
By your reasoning, I should pay a lot for a car because others do? Respectfully, I don’t care what other people spend on their car. Similarly, I wouldn’t have gotten a sub-prime mortgage loan either, like a lot of people did. Even if a bunch of people jumped off a cliff, I wouldn’t. I only have so much money to go around. If other people can afford an expensive cars, good for them. If other people sacrifice so they can drive expensive cars, so be it. If ohters prefer to linve in substantial debt, good luck to them.
Just because others spend a lot on their car doesn’t mean I want to. If close to 50% of the cars on the road are $40K+, Then close to 50% of the cars on the road are sub $40k.
I understand that some people value expensive cars. I wouldn’t begrudge them their preferences. However, from a practical perspective, $35k-$40K is a ridiculous price for a car. It nearly matches the real median household income in the United States.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:14 pm
$20K plus $18,000 ($150 per month over 10 years) for the battery?
That gives a total price of $38,000, which is as much or more than the most recent estimates for the Volt target price and it’s greatly inferior to the Volt.
That said, the more the merrier.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Liked the top 20 cars and the top of the list is Chevy Volt. To me the top of the list is the EV-1. I’d buy one today if I could. Had they been sold nationwide instead of just Cali and Arizona they would have made a fortune for GM. BUT if they won’t make the EV-1 then the Volt is the next best thing. GO VOLT….GO GM. I haven’t been so excited about a GM car since the 1958 Chevy. AND yes GM I would like to test drive a mule for you in FLORIDA. 239 410-8826 TED
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:51 pm
On the TH!NK web site, it states that the Ox “platform concept also forsees a sports version with a higher top speed and a range extended to up to 450km” - which is about 270 miles. I think (pun intended) this will help buyers overcome the “range anxiety”.
As for $100 to $200 for leasing the battery … I’m now spending about $150/month for gas. I expect that within a few years, this monthly cost will rise to at least $200 or more. So with a $150 monthly charge for leasing the battery and another $30 for electricity - I can spend a bit less money and have close to zero emissions. (My electricity is 90% hydro-electric.)
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Whoops! Here’s the link …
http://think.no/think/content/view/full/269
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:07 pm
26 David L.
I still haven’t figured out the logic in ‘leasing’ the battery. Financially, a lease is no different than a loan with a balloon payment at the end. The balloon payment is based on the residual value of the item being leased (in this case, the battery), and it only works if the lessor has a reliable calculation of the residual value.
Unfortunately, the residual value of an EV battery is going to be low. Not only is the battery capacity reduced over years of driving, but also anyone involved in this field knows that the batteries will get better. Both of these reduce the value of the battery at the end of the lease.
In the end, anyone offering to lease a battery is going to either find a way to fool the buyer into paying for the entire battery, or is going to lose their shirt leasing batteries. Either way, it’s not going to be a winning solution.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
#19 Canuck - You must live in a small town… In the City of Houston I can easily drive 100 miles on the freeway in a single trip without leaving the city limits, with nowhere in site to plug in. Range anxiety is real. I would never buy a pure electric vehicle without less than 200 mile range…
and I’m not too sure of that. Maybe if it had an on-board nuclear reactor and had a 10,000 mile range, I would consider it. The gasoline range extender is the only technology that adequately addresses range anxiety.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Screw leasing the battery. I want an electric car to avoid the high price of gas. Why would I lease a battery at about the same price as what gas cost and then have to pay to charge it too. No thanks. But they are getting closer. Maybe I could buy a think and send the stupid battery back. Then buy my own battery from some place like Lionev. And the battery I buy could be half as large as I don’t need 100 mile range to get to and from work.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I like it. Not for the price though. IMO the market for PHEV’s or EVs is stratified. There are those who want a cheap gas free way to commute, and there are those who want a vehicle with little to no compromises. A direct replacement for a traditional car.
Give me a Th!nk for 10-12k and I will be happy.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Sorry if this is a repeat, … just heard on one of the 24 hour news channels (which are all having “green” stories for Earth day which is today) that the Th!nk could be seen on US roads starting as early as late this year!
If I lived in the big city I would definitely get it!
By the way, did anyone see PBS’s Nova tonight titled “Car of the Future”? The Volt got some time on it… except that while my online program guide said this was a new episode of Nova… lots of the info seemed it was at least 6 months dated about the Volt, Tesla, etc.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Will be under $25K but you lease the battery according to their website, for hundred$$$ per month. A big “BUT”. It’s like buying two cars. I still might buy one… but not as great as it sounds.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:12 am
The EV-1 people will never let it go, will they?
Once more:
The estimated price of an EV-1 was about $85K, and that was in 1998 dollars, so if you think a Volt is going to be a niche vehicle, what do you think the EV-1 would have been?
GM knew that the EV-1 would not work in cold climates, so it could never have been released nationwide.
Battery tehnology just was not ready at that time. Now it is! The Volt technology will succeed, and will sell by the millions!
The movie really got many of the important facts wrong………
As to the Th!nk: For inner city, low speed driving, it would probably be OK, but for that type of car, it is just too expensive, if the published pricing is accurate.
The one thing I would like to know for certain is how the range is affected when running the heater, and if they will put in an air conditioner in the US model.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:50 am
Jim sez:”The estimated price of an EV-1 was about $85K, and that was in 1998 dollars, so if you think a Volt is going to be a niche vehicle, what do you think the EV-1 would have been? ”
It would have been a niche vehicle for a very large niche. The price was high because they were assembled individually. The parts count was low. If assembled on a production line it would be cheaper than an ICE
“Battery technology just was not ready at that time.” The PbA batteries were barely adequate, but the NiMH did just fine. They had excellent life expectancy as well as demonstrated by the many RAV4s with over 100k miles. GM set EVs back by a decade by selling the technology to Exxon-Mobil. E-M sued Panasonic for making the RAV4 packs and will not license NiMH for EV use. Certainly, lithium may prove to be superior, but we could have been using NiMH while we were waiting for the development were it not for the E-M blockade.
“The movie really got many of the important facts wrong…” Sure got more facts right than the GM line you’ve been swallowing. There were customers for all the cars they could produce. Even with GM anti marketing there were customers. Customers were willing to pay lawyers to try to keep the cars they were leasing. Sure sounds like an unsuccessful vehicle to me!
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:31 am
Scott,
Yeah as I was writing I thought of bigger US cities. I lived in New Rochelle, about 50 miles from New Yor City core. While you can drive 100 miles and remain within greater New York metropolitan area (like GTA here, Greater Toronto Area), I did most of my activities within about 10 miles. My parents mostly used train to go to work.
It would still be rare for someone to be driving accross town on a regular basis. That being said, ther will always be some people who drive more than 100 miles on a regular basis. Like I said, City is not a general purpose vehicle for all needs.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:54 am
My wife can’t remember to fill up the tank on our Jeep…and it gets 500mi per tank (diesel, gotta love it). So how many times am I going to have to go pick her up on the side of the road with a 60mi range vehicle? So now you have eliminated half the market off the bat. (C’mon, just joking). And it can’t carry the kids, so that eliminates married guys like me. So that leaves the single, geeky guys…who instead can afford a real, sexy geeky electric two seater like a Tesla or whatnot (at least the non-divorced single guys). That leaves only the geeky guys who are humbly-incomed for the Think ..which is really a oxymoron. If you are single and a geek, you damn well should be making a decent living and have plenty of disposable income, no excuses. The IT guys around here live like kings unless they have a serious internet gambling habit.
Anyways, even the 4-door Think OX will not compete with the Volt..it will compete against the 200? Prius which will be in the same price range..and the Think will fail to penetrate individual consumerscause of the range issues. It will be a fleet vehicle for minicipal governments and city taxi companies. End of story.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Storm:
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. But there is no use arguing back and forth, because we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and neither of us will change our minds…
So I guess the real question is:
GM has admitted that backing off on the development of this technology and hybrids was a mistake. They are now working on correcting that error. So how long do you want to keep smacking them in the face about it?????
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Jim I, #39. I’m with you on this one. We have so beaten this EV-1 thing to death here. It is in the past. It is NOT the future. The future is the Volt.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Better to wait for the car reviews from Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, JD Power and those guys first … but ….
It would probably be a good car for those stay at home mothers who just need a car to do errands and haul their kids around to school and sports, etc. People that work from their home too. People that usually have 2 or more cars in the family anyway … for long trips, etc. I think they ought to name this Think car “Suburb” or “Small Town” instead of “City”.
If the vast majority of a typical person’s driving is 120 miles round trip or less and they don’t need to get on the interstate very often, this is a pretty good choice. Even if the driver did run out of juice, it wouldn’t be a big problem if the suburb they are living in is fairly safe … more nice, friendly, helpful people and not as much traffic, etc.
I suspect that the Think cars will have places in the engine where you can attach jumper cables from a regular IC engine car battery and quick charge it enough to get it home. If you are near a neighbor you know, you could even plug it into their house and visit with them while it charges … just pay them $5 on the way out for the juice. Better drive with a cell phone, a long extension cord and get AAA if you get this car just in case.
Volt owners won’t have to worry about this range problem. Smart Volt owners will have at least 2 gallons in their gas tank to get home in case they get stuck in traffic, make a wrong turn, etc. Volt owners could drive anywhere with peace of mind. Just keep keep that gas tank filled up enough like they always have. It’s a good insurance policy.
The Volt ought to have several digital readouts on the touchscreen (or gauges or whatever). Warning lights too of course. Total estimated miles left (gasoline AND electric), all electric miles left and so forth. Plus, a digital readout of gallons in the IC engine tank. GM should alleviate range anxieties as much as they can. Make it all very user friendly of course … like an iPhone or something. Even little old ladies and 16 years olds could figure it out fairly quick.
Despite the “range anxiety” problem with these Think cars, they could be good cars for a lot of people. They’ll save people a LOT of money on gas and car maintenance/repairs and do their part to “stick it to OPEC and the oil companies” and help the environment. Gas could be $5 a gallon soon for all we know. 100% electric cars should be MUCH more reliable as far as repairs and maintenance goes. That money adds up you know.
If everyone got Think cars in certain subdivisions it would would make them quieter and more peaceful. People move to the suburbs to get away from the noise and hustle and bustle of city life you know. They’d probably like to do their part to make the air quality better in their town. Their neighbors would probably want to get one too before long if the “early adopters” like them. Word of mouth gets around about these things. People are like that … gotta keep up with the Joneses and all that.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Speaking of early adopters, I tried to estimate the number of US families that may buy a EV or E-REV and found an article that said 30% of US families are early adopters of technology.
For that reason there is almost no risk in introducing new technology products. Refereing to Ipods I guess but…….
The scenario described today, that makes an EV a better investment than gold, due to scarcity,looks a possibility.
ps. I hold no investments in vehicle manufacturers, or any thing else for that matter.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:35 pm
#36 Storm,
“If assembled on a production line it would be cheaper than an ICE”
Not even close. Manufacturing cost for a small ICE car is less than $10k. EV-1’s NIMH battery alone cost more than that. Nice batteries, as you say, but very expensive. Also::
1. GM never sold NIMH technology to Exxon-Mobil
2. Panasonic IS allowed to sell NIMH for EV use
3. Other licensees are also allowed to sell NIMH for EV
4. No one sells NIMH for EV because of weight/cost
April 24th, 2008 at 2:02 am
I like the Think car. My daughter who works within 2 miles of home and will go to college within a few more miles from home are players for this market. For me, I need the backup generator applied using the Volt design. Critically important to me. Without this added feature to support the EV, no purchase.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Electric cars are not for everyone nor will they meet every need. FWIW, I drive one every day. http://www.evalbum.com/1059
To say they are not practical because of the cost of the batteries may be true as long as the battery packs are hand assembled one at a time. How much would an ICE cost if only 500 were hand built per year?
Sorry I mis stated ‘Exxon’. The NiMH business is controlled by Chevron/Texaco through its Cobasys company which has a joint agreement with Ovonic, the basic patent holder for NiMH. Texaco purchased Ovonic from GM. So far Chevron/Texaco has been able to limit the size of NiMH for EVs by patent infringement suits. Panasonic was successfully sued and is only allowed to make packs large enough for the hybrids. This has been the main reason that Toyota hasn’t entered the plug in hybrid business.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“Panasonic was successfully sued and is only allowed to make packs large enough for the hybrids.”
This is not correct. The original settlement prohibited Panasonic from selling NIMH batteries for “certain applications” (i.e. EVs) in North America. The agreement was revised one year later and currently allows such sales. This information is all available in SEC filings for Energy Conversion Devices, parent company of United Solar Ovonic:
http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Energy+Conversion+Devices&CIK=&filenum=&State=&SIC=&owner=include&action=getcompany
April 29th, 2008 at 4:33 am
Blah blah “Th!nk could wind up failure”… blah blah “miniscule”… blah blah blah “made of plastic”… blah blah blah “hopeful price tag”. I can smell your fear and I like it. It smells like… victory!