Even Chevy Volt Battery Suppliers Surprised at GM’s Volt Aggressiveness

April 15th, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, Timeline

The automotive lithium-ion battery industry is in it’s infancy. Aside for some relatively small companies making limited production prototypes, there will likely be no substantial lithium-ion powered EVs on the road until the Volt arrives in 2010.

Forbes has published a decent review of the current state of the technology. They compare GM and Toyota as the tortoise and the hare, with Toyota cautiously moving ahead, at best putting li-ion into a limited fleet of PHEVs in 2010, and with GM racing to mass produce the powerful battery-driven Volt.

Prabhakar Patil who is the CEO of Compact Power Inc., one of the two companies building prototype Volt battery packs, is quoted as saying, "What I worry about is a black eye–if somebody puts a battery on the road prematurely, it would hurt the entire industry."

The other battery pack team includes li-ion supplier A123 Systems, whose founder Ric Fulop said "Somebody lit a fire under [GM's] butt in 2006," and "I’ve never seen a large company move so fast and put so many resources behind something."

Source (Forbes )

Popularity: 5% [?]

(3 votes, average: 4.67 out of 5)

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Posted by: Lyle

70 Responses to “Even Chevy Volt Battery Suppliers Surprised at GM’s Volt Aggressiveness”

Jason M. Hendler Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

This is a good list, and it is good to hear GM is going after this at full tilt.

[Reply]
Nick Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

More competition than I thought… Looking forward to competitive pricing when the Volt’s roll out!

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josh Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

Good to hear!

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Jimmy Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

That a boy GM! You know you have got a winner on your hands. Keep going full speed and the brass ring will be yours.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

Sure GM’s approach is risky. But the more you hang it out there the more you learn. I’m sure there will be some setbacks along the way, maybe even a delay. But no one else is as far as GM is right now, and everyone knows it.

The “fire under the butt of GM” I bet is what has the other companies worried a little. How often have you EVER heard someone say that about any of the Detroit three. It’s about time GM showed what they can do if they put forth an over the top effort.

At the very least, they should be credited with jumpstarting the mainstream electrification of the automobile. No one else would be where THEY are in their development if GM didn’t throw down the gauntlet with the Volt.

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Jim Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

The automatic transmission, the modern V8 engine, the starter, the Corvette, the Camero, the Toronado, the Corvaire and the EV1. The Volt is GM once again becoming the innovator and leader in the automobile industry. Go Lutz! Go GM!

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AES Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 10:36 pm

GM is either heavily criticized for going forward so rapidly, or heavily praised. When a lot of the criticism comes from the competition, you know you must be doing something right.

So…in a phrase probably culturally incomprehensible to the tortoises at TOYota

“Git er done!”

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Jim I Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

I think the testing being done by GM in the labs and in the test mules will shake out any performance and safety issues, but the real conern for 2010 will be availability. If these companies are not able to produce and deliver thousands of top quality battery packs, that will really hurt this project. I think this is the reason that GM has reduced the initial quantity from 60K to 10K units for the first year.

They really need to get going, so they can ramp up to large scale production!!

This is another reason that GM should use packs from both companies, assuming that they both meet the required specs.

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vincent Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 10:42 pm

I’ll buy a big fat expensive steak to place over Toyota’s Black Eye.
“Moving Forward”, NOT!
Go GM!!!

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Pstoller78 Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 12:48 am

On a semi-related note it appears that some fears of limited lithium supplies may have been overblown.

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1434

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Vinayababu Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 1:46 am

Lithium batteries for Automotive, though it is fairly successful in gadgets, are not yet a done deal. It is yet to prove that it can withstand the enormous stress of storing and discharging sufficient energy to propel a medium size car a minimum 40 miles in one stretch , undergo the minimum cycles of charge and discharge 3000 times and last a minimum 10 years. It is a very very tall order to expect this from a new product that employ a technology that is still evolving and set a time limit of two years for perfection. Toyota knows what it is doing.

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Vinayababu Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 2:08 am

An interesting article on Battery development

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10789409

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KenEE Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:11 am

Whatever energy storage device ships in the Volt, I imagine that within 10 years there will be a superior and relatively cheap replacement.

For all of your other concerns the rigorous GM testing will identify any problems.

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Joe Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:39 am

message to #9

“Toyota knows what it’s doing” and I guess GM doesn’t. The great Toyota can do no wrong. Are you American? Why don’t you have a little more pride with our country. Toyota has contributed very little to the auto industry except for the Prius. Because of the Prius, some Americans think they are the greatest company on earth. If we had less of these pro Toyota nonsense, maybe the domestics would do better in terms of sales. I guess all those recalls last year don’t mean anything. If GM had those recalls, the whole world would know about them and the journalists would be unrelenting.

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RB Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:43 am

#9 Vin said “and set a time limit of two years for perfection” I agree with the challenges that Vin listed. Still, we are anticipating batteries in 2010 that are functional and useful, not perfect.

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Jeff Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:55 am

Risk is the difference between first and second….I applaud GM.

On the other hand, why would Toyota pay for the initial risk (large battery pack) if it is not required? The Prius has been converted to a PHEV using several different battery technologies by folks in their garages and 3rd party companies.

In other words, the Toyota “test mules” have been in the field for a few years…and someone else is paying for it. When the Volt gets close to market, the ramp-up time and cost for Toyota will be small compared to GM.

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Vincent Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 7:52 am

To Jeff #14…
And “Toyota with test mules out for a few years”…They still don’t have a Volt do they.

Thats because the Japanese invent NOTHING.

They COPY Everything. WE INVENT Here in the USA.

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RB Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 8:04 am

Re GM moving fast: It’s wonderful to see that the elephant tap dancing..

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nasaman Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 8:33 am

The Forbes chart (above) shows the car I hope to have in my drive parked next to my Volt —the Plug-in Vue— which is actually due in 2009 (next year). For anyone else interested in this plug-in CUV*, a short article by the car’s chief engineer after driving the 2-mode Vue (which the plug-in is based on), is at…..

http://imsaturn.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2033334%3ABlogPost%3A256

===============================================================

*I want the plug-in Vue to tow my boat, haul my kids/grandkids & tons of stuff

[Reply]
Rashiid Amul Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 8:50 am

Very cool that there are so many EVs coming. I hope there will be many many more to come.

Vin #9 says, “Toyota knows what it is doing.” I agree. Toyota is doing what is right for Toyota. GM is doing what is right with GM. They are both great companies. But I think GM’s technology will be better because of the 40 mile EV range followed by the extended range of the ICE.

However, I don’t believe the Volt will win the competition in terms of number of cars sold. I think this because the price of the Prius is much lower than the rumored price of the Volt. Consumers will go cheaper with the cheaper brand. I will buy the Volt only if it cost effective for me.

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Charlie H Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 8:53 am

My goodness, quite a few slaps at Toyota, here.

A little perspective: Toyota brougtht out a hybrid when pretty much nobody knew what a hybrid was. They sold 20K Priuses last month, along with 7K Camry hybrids and perhaps 4K other hybrids (Lexus RX, Highlander).

Last month, GM sold 577 hybrids. That includes the “mild” hybrid BAS system cars. This isn’t first-month ramp-up, the two-modes were in their second full month and the Aura hybrid has been on the market since last fall.

Toyota is a gritty, determined competitor that makes money and has a lot of experience in this arena. Dismissing their tremendous market and production, if not technological, lead is unwise.

And the projected Volt price puts it at a severe disadvantage to the Prius. The market for $40K+ cars is pretty limited and the Volt is just going to be a small part of that market (it won’t replace an SUV or a luxury car, for example). Look at Toyota’s own sales figures, Toyota outsells Lexus by 8 to 1. And some Lexus’ are well under $40K. The bottom end of the market is very wide and the top is very narrow.

The Volt must be effective, reliable and, frankly, pretty darned nice or consumers will buy a $22K Prius, instead, and pocket the change.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 9:00 am

If battery suppliers are surprised at GM’s aggressiveness, I hope they are confident that the batteries will work. Compact Power Inc. seems to have reservations about GM’s aggressiveness, as evidenced by their fear that some battery developers might rush out a battery before it is ready. I hope auto manufacturers are wise enough that they wouldn’t use an unready battery.

A123 Systems may be impressed with GM’s speed, dedication, and resources, but how does that help A123 Systems develop a better battery? Sometimes throwing more money at something doesn’t make it any better.

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Jim F. Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 9:34 am

#17 nasaman

Thanks for the Saturn link. I have my name on the list for a two-mode Vue - I don’t think I can wait for the plug-in version.

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Grizzly Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 9:35 am

Maybe it’s a good thing GM didn’t get it’s feet deep in hybrid technology because they’re obviously planning on leapfrogging it. Criticized they were about not having hybrids on the road, they are now focusing on the future. Honestly, for all the complexity involved, I’ve never been impressed with the mileage figures for the Prius.

When someone makes the comment that Toyota knows what they’re doing, I’d agree when they decided to ditch PEVs based on cobalt oxide batteries. One BEV advocate on this board actually tried to make the point that because of this Toyota already proved that Li-ion wasn’t possible right now.

Watching GM move forward with great partners, and a superior chemistry has got to be frustrating.

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Statikwe Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 9:36 am

I find what the suppliers have to say alot more interesting than what GM does to tell you the truth. Seems like right now it’s, “GM is asking for batteries…and are actually willing to pay, but I’m just not sure we can deliver yet”

Aside: Enough with the Prius vs. Volt, lol. Different cars people…the Volt is not ever going to outsell the Prius, thats not what it is about anyway) Prius is ramping up to 460K copies this year, you could give 100 billion dollars to every battery maker in the world and they couldn’t get this many working batteries out in a year until probably 2020.

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Kevin R Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 10:07 am

#17…

I completely agree with you. The entire consumer electronics industry is stacked with examples of inventions that were thought of and created in the USA but the patents purchased by the Japanese. They are not the innovators or inventors on a large scale. They purchase inventions and tweak them for the mass market. The video recorder is a perfect example of a technology that was invented here and shelved as not applicable to consumer appliances. A Japanese firm purchased it and before you knew it Sony and JVC had competing formats our in the late 1970’s.

I really believe that when GM gets the Volt to the showroom floor there will be no stopping them for the foreseeable future. They must be aggressive, never ending their push of the envelope in their quest to be the best and most innovative from now on.

GO Mr. Lutz and Volt team…..bring that beauty to us as fast as you possibly can!

[Reply]
scott Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 10:30 am

If you really want to be spun up into a rage over bias anti-Volt sediment read this article:

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=18013&url=http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-great-hybrid-showdown-chevrolet-volt-vs-toyota-prius/

It’s hard to take a journalist seriously who ends an article with the word “ass”.

[Reply]
Eco Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 10:31 am

Dear Joe

you wrote “The great Toyota can do no wrong. Are you American? Why don’t you have a little more pride with our country. Toyota has contributed very little to the auto industry except for the Prius.”

Reply:

Total Cost of Ownership

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Grizzly Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 10:33 am

If one or both batt. technologies prove themselves down the road, the battery size might just be able to be cut in half to 8Kwh. This would reduce costs further for a 40-50 mi range Volt in addition to increased production. The ten year life might not be so important because a battery half that size could be upgraded fairly easily in 5-7 years.

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noel park Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 10:34 am

#26 Kevin R:

You have stated the essence of the whole thing:

“They must be aggressive, never ending their push of the envelope in their quest to be the best and most innovative from now on.”

My devout hope is that the penny has finally dropped, and that GM has realized that abandoning leadership of the car market in favor of relying on light trucks and SUVs for profitability is a thing of the past with the advent of $4.00+/gallon gas and diesel.

If they cannot compete with imports for the cheap small car market, they must create products which are so innovative, and so good, that they are irresistable to the marketplace at prices which allow GM to make money.

Mr. Lutz has stressed the existential need for technological leadership many times. We can only hope and pray that he and others in GM management have the skills and the determination to make it happen.

[Reply]
Spin Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 11:03 am

Sorry about the thread hijack but this is interesting:

Tesla sues Fisker

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/technology/15tesla.html?_r=1&ex=1366084800&en=484456c892def03d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

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Vinayababu Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 11:21 am

message#14
Interesting discussions, but sorry Joe not interested in a debate over pride and patriotism in this forum, but will discuss GM and is Volt.
Pride alone cannot make a company make a better product and sell it. Toyota makes and sell more Hybrid than GM in US, that does not mean Americans buying Prius are pride less. As a GM admirer over five decades I wish GM regain it glory and leadership in Automotive field which it is loosing to Toyota. All good products, whoever make it should be appreciated.

May I ask what is the contribution of GM in the last decade in Automotive industry. The EV1 was abandoned, may be that was a good business decision, but killing a technology was not. When Honda introduced Hybrid for the first time,Toyota followed it up using a battery system, GM abandoned. I feel that was the second time GM lost an opportunity.

I think Its Vue announcement after the Volt is a admission of being late . when GM is pushing the Volt vigorously setting time limit over an yet to be proved battery, they are taking a huge risk on it reputation. I hope and wish they see success this time.

[Reply]
noel park Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 11:44 am

#31 Spin:

No need to be sorry. It is interesting. The irrelevant sues the irrelevant, ha ha ha, lol.

#32 Vinayababu:

Well it’s hard to argue with that. Too true, alas.

Mr. Lutz himself, to his credit, has been quoted here a number of times saying that GM missed the boat on hybrids and is now struggling to regain technological leadership.

I hope and wish that they see success this time as well.

[Reply]
ThombDbhomb Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

#14 Joe

“Toyota has contributed very little to the auto industry except for the Prius”

Because GM is competing with Toyota, Toyota is a factor in GM’s pursuit of the Volt. The Volt has the potential to mark a major turning point in the auto industry. If that occurs, it will be due, in part, to Toyota.

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2Snowboard Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

24 Grizzly
Yes, GM may turn out to produce better products having never gotten established in the hybrid push this decade. Sure they suffered a PR disaster, but I totally agree that the mileage figures for the Prius make it probably the most overrated vehicle in recent memory. A coworker got one of the first ones off the boat in America and I was all jazzed at the concept and the supposed mpg. But then when the study came out that more accurately accounted for the variables of hybrids and found it was a 5 - 10mpg addition, I was like you have to be kidding me. Its real contribution was making mainstream the concept of different power sources, that’s it.

Let all the hippies smugly drive their nerd’s shoe into the next decade while other consumers and companies evolve beyond hybrids.

[Reply]
Jeff Sutter Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

Batteries used in this application are going to be “ridden hard and put away wet”. I’m surprised that GM is still screwing around with batteries that need temperature management when they could get Altairnano that have an operating range from -40 to +250 degF.

Owing to their vanishingly low internal resistance, they only heat minimally when stressed (testing at AeroVironment found that charging a 35kwh pack in 10 minutes heated it 9 degrees). And since they’re good for at least 4000 full charge/discharge cycles, they could last longer than 10 years.

I’d love to get a Volt but Chevy still has to convince me that the batteries they use will stand up to every day use and perform reliably for the life of the car.

[Reply]
drivin98 Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

“Aside for some relatively small companies making limited production prototypes, there will likely be no substantial lithium-ion powered EVs on the road until the Volt arrives in 2010.”

Um, Mitsubishi i-MiEV with GS-Yasua batteries? Maybe they won’t be on U.S. roads in 2010 but they should be in Japan, Korea and England.

[Reply]
Compare to the Volt - Page 2 - Tesla Motors Club Forum Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

[...] noises continue: GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Concept Site
GXT Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

#27 Scott:

That is a good article.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Blinded by Prius-envy, GM is making a big mistake with the ERev and 40 mile range. They have taken the worst parts of EVs and Hybrids and put them into a single vehicle for which they want you to pay a premium. Talk about letting your company be destroyed by marketing.

[Reply]
TOM M Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

GTX # 39

ONLY ONE MANS OPINION ! Everybody is such an authority when we are on the outside looking in !!

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Tim Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Fast is great! Check out this eerie oil prediction from a high ranking energy analyst:

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/11413/High-Oil-Prices-You-Ain‘t-Seen-Nothing-Yet?tickers=xom

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Jon Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

“Somebody lit a fire under [GM’s] butt in 2006″
Really? Well DUH! Could it be that oil is $114 a barrel and GM realizes that if they want their company to exist in a few years when gas is 7-10 dollars a gallon they have to produce a vehicle that is at least capable of a fair amount of all electric driving range. With global oil production capacity peaking the electrification of the transportation fleet is the only way an auto maker is going to stay in buisness.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

Here’s an interesting article that popped up today about the hybrid powertrain technologies on the way:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/determining-the.html#more

By the way, you can’t really call the Volt a “Plug-in hybrid” (PHEV). PHEVs are pretty much considered the current Priuses out there that have been converted to be plug-ins. They are actually “plug in POWER SPLIT hybrids” I guess … P + HEV. HEV = power split hybrid electric vehicle. The marketing people will have some problems describing the new hybrid technologies to customers. Lots of new acronyms. They’ll have to train the car dealer salesmen on this stuff and give them some good charts or something.

People that like Toyota cars should be asking them if and when they are going to make a “SERIES hybrid” (an E-REV). Here’s why Toyota will probably be in catch up mode to GM and will be developing their own “series hybrid” (E-REV) in the next few years.

“GM concluded that:

The real-world RTS data set contains widespread and significant driving at power levels and speeds beyond that represented by the urban driving schedule.

An E-REV is more than TEN times as likely to finish the day as an EV than as urban-capable PHEV derived from an HEV, when operated in the actual application, as represented by the RTS data set.

An E-REV consumer, on average, uses less than HALF of the petroleum of a PHEV in the real world, IF overnight charging is assumed.

An E-REV will reduce regulated emissions that are due to initial trip starts by more than 70% when compared to a PHEV in the actual application.

Electric range when operating on the urban schedule is not a direct measure of a plug-in vehicle’s ability to run with the engine off, ability to displace petroleum or ability to reduce regulated emissions in the actual application. Rather, the ability to run with FULL performance on electric power alone leads to improvements which would be realized in actual application.

In the event of a petroleum disruption, an E-REV could support uncompromised vehicle operation for the majority of drivers.

We conclude that electrification that enables E-REVs may be well worth the effort. Specifically designed electric powertrains, incorporating higher power motors and thermal systems, higher
energy batteries and integrating them into vehicle structures specifically designed for that purpose will be rewarded with societal benefits in real world use. While PHEVs can make improvements compared to HEVs, an E-REV appears to realize a MUCH GREATER portion of societal benefits.”

In the RESOURCES section at the bottom of this article, there’s links to some good detailed .pdf reports from Toyota, Argonne Labs, and GM. You have to pay $14 for them though. I’m getting the GM (Tate) one for now and the other ones later maybe.

Edward Tate (GM) et. al.; The Electrification of the Automobile: From Conventional Hybrid, to Plug-in Hybrids, to Extended-Range Electric Vehicles (SAE 2008-01-0458)

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2008-01-0458

Aymeric Rousseau (Argonne); Comparison of Production Powertrain Configuration Options for Plug-in HEVs from Fuel Economy Perspective (SAE 2008-01-0461)

Masayuki Komatsu (Toyota), et. al.; Study on the Potential Benefits of a Plug-in Hybrid System (SAE 2008-01-0456)

[Reply]
Brad Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

Great article. I cannot wait for the volt.

[Reply]
scott Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

#39 GTX:

Be specific. You said GM took the worst part of hybrids? What does that mean? Explain then quantify that explanation. Don’t just rant. That was exactly the problem with the bias article I referenced in #27. Maybe you are the original author!

[Reply]
Woody Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

I’ve been driving Toyotas since 1979 because they are great cars. The Volt and and what it will mean for the US is probably the only thing that will bring me back to “made in USA”. I am pulling for GM for the first time in many years.

[Reply]
Nixon Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Competitor 1 says: “What I worry about is a black eye–if somebody puts a battery on the road prematurely, it would hurt the entire industry.”

Competitor 2 says: “I’ve never seen a large company move so fast and put so many resources behind something.”

My money is on Competitor 2 being ahead in the competition based on those statements.

[Reply]
Theoldguy Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

GM Aggresive ? Let’s get the VOLT out there now and ahead of the other guys… as I said in a previous post….

GM already has all the hard stuff done… Mules have been running for 6 Months….. they are getting ready for the actual “Real” batteries to go into the mules… This also means that the bulk of the sofware/hardware issues relating to the batteries are in their final stages… The body of the car is only a short time away from being finalized.. So now , all GM has to do is finalize the testing,, get the production plant up to speed and start producing the VOLT..

Come on GM…. you may be aggresive to get the Volt out there…

But you have pick up the pace and get the price competitive for the general public… 30 - 37 K so that most of us can still afford it. You could have it out there by late 2009 …. AND in big numbers…

I am ready now but will wait for my Black Volt With all the options.. 2010 / 2011 at the latest…Central Alberta, Canada… I am READY !!!
Please confirm the delivery date for me ….

If I am unable to get one by Mid 2011 at the latest…. all bets are off as I WILL need and WILL purchase an Electric or Hybrid vehicle at that time…

[Reply]
pdt Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 5:48 pm

#36
Jeff Sutter

I think that technology has real potential both in automotive and in stationary energy storage. My guess would be that at the time GM evaluated technologies this one was not far enough along in terms of demonstrated manufacturing capability. The other downsides are relatively low energy density and low voltage. The low energy density is probably not too much of a detriment because they would probably not need to be as oversized due to the high stability you pointed out. The low voltage means they would need more cells to build the 300-500 volts they need to power the car.

[Reply]
Ted in Fort Myers Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

Now with $5.00+/gal gas, Electrics are the way to go. Just think of an EV-1 with LI-Ion batts going 120 miles per charge. GM you could now sell EV-1’s by the boatload. Hurry with my Volt. I must have electric. Slip the battery pack into my mule and send it down to South Florida….. TED

[Reply]
NorthernPiker Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

“Aside for some relatively small companies making limited production prototypes, there will likely be no substantial lithium-ion powered EVs on the road until the Volt arrives in 2010.”

Well, here’s a company, Tanfield, that has projected a not insubstantial 1,000 and 3,000 EV sales in 2008 and 2009, respectively. The Ampere is co-branded Ford and Smith (a Tanfield division)

“The fab four

TANFIELD produces four electric powered vehicles which can travel 100 miles on one battery charge.

:: The Ampere has a top speed of 70mph. It weighs 2,340kg and has a payload capacity of 800kg.

:: The Faraday II weighs up to 13,000kg.

:: The Edison is the world’s first purely-electric powered van with a weight of below 3,500kg. It has a 50mph top speed.

:: The Newton is the world’s biggest pure electric truck and weighs between 7,500kg and 12,000kg. It has a 50mph top speed. ”

http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/business-news/latest-business-news/2008/04/16/tanfield-and-ford-unveil-the-ampere-51140-20769080/

According to the following February 7, 2008 press release, Tanfield has signed a contract with at least one Li-ion battery manufacturer, Valence Technology.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080207/20080207005805.html?.v=1

[Reply]
StevePA Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

The full text of that Forbes article can be reached via link in post made a couple weeks ago in the “Electric Competiton” forum. Subject was entitled “Jump Start”, as is the article.

Sure seems like a passell of Toyota apologists on this board. Hey folks, they’ve made their share of missteps. They won’t be first or best all the time. It does look like they’ll be bested in this round.

[Reply]
Brian M Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

FIRST VOLT MULE SPIED!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-volt.html

[Reply]
ksuhwail Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

GM needs to drop their shoulder and charge forward like walter payton! Never waver! They have the diversified brands that would appeal to all walks of life. I hope they stick it to Toyhonda right in the heart and RUN away with the future.

[Reply]
ksuhwail Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

As a side note…check out this link for some pictures of
VOLT TEST MULES

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-volt.html

[Reply]
Jeff Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

If this article and the number of hybrid vehicles already sold are evidence that the auto industry (not just GM) has fully embraced the electrification of the passenger vehicle…

Battery technology should improve…

[Reply]
Ed Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

GM had their shot 10-12 years ago with a Super ALL ELECTRIC car, the “EV1″, do a search on it! So what happens, Big Oil gives Big GM, a few Billion and they pull the plug on the EV1, Literally! This car could could over 100 mph, and approx. 150 miles on a single charge, that you plugged in at home. That’s right, AT HOME!!! No Thanks GM, You blew it, give me a vehicle I can plug in at home again, or I’ll wait until Japan does!!!

[Reply]
Al Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 9:31 pm

Just in case you believe it is all about cars, try this link:

http://zeromotorcycles.com/cleanest.php

This is the 3rd manufacturer’s entry into a hot market, and for you really early adopters $7500 gets you 40 miles BEV range, a completely non-toxic Lithium Ion Battery, killer performance and a few tricks Volt cannot do. How about jumps and wheelies or even a 2 hour recharge rate. Street version ships this summer and they cannot keep up with the orders now. Reportedly all US Technology. No gasoline required. They will sell you an accessory similar battery that adds 20 miles range for a cool $2500.

[Reply]
omegaman66 Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 11:50 pm

I think there is a bigger story than li-ion batteries that nobody seems to realize pay attention too or grasp.
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The Volt is BETTER than a prius in mpg even if you toss the battery in the garbage! Does anybody realize that you don’t need a Li battery or any battery for that matter for the volt to get better gas milage than a prius. The worst case senario for the volt without a battery still gets better gas milage than the prius in its best case senario.

That is point ONE which leads to point TWO! I sure hope that someone at GM realizes that the prius will beat out the volt because of its lower cost. Version 2 on through version 2000 of the volt and all line of cars and trucks that gm make should be converted as quickly as possible to the volt drive design and limit battery size as needed to be cost competitive. Cost matters.

By cutting battery size by a factor of 3 GM can triple production that is limited by battery availability and at the same time drastically cut the cost of the vehicle. AND YOU WILL STILL GET BETTER MILAGE THAN A PRIUS!!!

Ultimately buying a car/truck should be like buying a computer. “Do you want the 20, 60 or 80 gig hard drive. Do the same with the battery size.

[Reply]
Lithium Battery summary in Gm-Volt article - Tesla Motors Club Forum Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 5:52 am

[...] producing what types of batteries and for what vehicle, along with expected timeline for release. GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Concept Site
Rockyroad Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 5:57 am

# 14 Joe ….
Toyota knows what it’s doing” and I guess GM doesn’t. The great Toyota can do no wrong. Are you American? Why don’t you have a little more pride with our country.

I am an American and I am proud of my country, and I bought a new Ford Ranger in 2003. The Alernator went at 23,000 miles. The new battery was defective from the day I bought the truck and the dealer service never found it. I found that the spare tire on the truck was SMALLER than the tires on the tuck and that if we had used it the rear end could have been damaged. You don’t have to guess what kind of pickup I bought in 2007.. Tacoma.
My pride in country does not extend beyond my wallet.

[Reply]
jabroni Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 7:42 am

Hey Prabakhar - There is not time left to worry about black eyes.

Since CARB buckled and caved in, we essential have lost 10 years of development in the electric auto industry. Full speed ahead now….

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Shawn Marshall Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 8:55 am

On GM aggressiveness - why die without a fight? Give ‘M hell GM.

[Reply]
Jason The Saj Says:
April 18th, 2008 at 11:27 am

Ed = naive, GM did not kill the EV1. Toyota & Honda did. By killing the Zero Emissions requirement.

Prius versus Volt Sales Forecast:

Prius wins…due to cheaper cost.

Future E-Flex vehicles versus Prius.
Prius falls far behind as GM ramps up E-Flex across it’s line. The Cobalt versus Malibu, the Charge versus Volt. GM’s put a lot into a platform design. Where as the Prius is a great design, it is NOT a platform. The result, other Toyota hybrids get no where near the Prius performance.

[Reply]
Jeff Sutter Says:
April 21st, 2008 at 1:25 am

The Volt will get more than 100mpg on average - double the Prius at best. The higher the price of gas goes, the greater the advantage of the Volt. People aren’t stupid - when they see that spending $10K more on a car saves them $20k in fuel over the car’s lifetime they’ll buy it.

The Volt’s due out in late 2010. Let’s see, the cost of gas is headed to $4.00 now. What about in two years? $5.00 per gallon? No one can say that that’s out of the question.

Prius QuickMath: 40 miles/day, 50-35 mpg, $5/gal = $120 - $170/mo.

Volt QuickMath: 40 mile/day, 2.5 miles/kwh, $.11/kwh = $53/month

40 miles/day = 14,600/year - about average. The trip to grandma’s in the Volt costs more/mile but not as much as the Prius by 1/2.

Money doesn’t talk, it swears:-) Maybe it’s just me, but I think the Volt wins.

[Reply]
Charlie H Says:
April 21st, 2008 at 10:07 am

#65, Jeff Sutter,

That’s the absolute best-case scenario (14,600 miles/year with 40 miles EVERY day) for the Volt and I notice you didn’t look at the projected price differential. If the Volt becomes available for $42K and Toyota holds the Prius to $21,100 (they’re ramping up to 1/2 million/year, so I think we can reasonably expect further economies of scale), then the Volt has to show $20,900 in savings over some reasonable projected lifetime. Presuming the ‘10 Prius gets 50mpg (they are at 45 now and Toyota intends to better that), that’s $1460 for the Prius in fuel each year. You shortchanged the Volt a little, I get $321 to “fuel” it for the year, electric-only. The advantage to the Volt is $1139/year in “fuel” costs and the simple Volt payback is $20,900/$1139 = about 18 years.

Now, add a time value to your money. If you put your $20,900 left over buying a Prius instead of a Volt to work, you earn about a thousand dollars a year. The Volt advantage shrinks to just $139 per year. The revised payback is $20,900/$139 = about 150 years, or 120 years after the cars have been junked. That’s not a payoff.

Another way to look at this is, buy the Prius in 2011, keep the $20900 in your pocket and buy a true, longer-range BEV for your daily commute in 2012 or 2013, in addition to you Prius.

If you change any of the parameters of use (add some periodic long trips, figure a longer or shorter daily commute), the Volt loses some of its fuel cost advantage over the Prius. 40 Miles per day, every day, is absolutely the Volt’s optimum use cycle. Anything other than that either diminishes the miles traveled and, therefore, the savings over the Prius or increases the cost of miles traveled and the Prius gains on incremental cost. Either way, a change lengthens the Volt payoff or negates it altogether.

The thing about the Prius is that, although people criticize it for it’s “lookitme” green factors, it’s still reasonably priced. Hard-headed people with no stake in the environment, oil independence or any other societal factor can look at the cost of operation and see a savings over a mid-priced sedan and go ahead and buy it. If gas goes up, their savings look even better.

With the Volt’s projected large price penalty, it’s very difficult to make a “business” case for the car and that means its principal value is in societal factors. In other words, it’s “lookitme” greenness that will sell - or not sell - this car. And it’s a $20K committment to “lookitme” greenness, which is a big chunk of change. For that, you could buy solar cells, solar heat/hot water or a windmill.

GM has got to find a way to manufacture it at a reasonable price. I don’t mean subsidize it from other profits, that’s the road to Chapter 11. They have got to do what Toyota’s doing; relentlessly drive down the cost to produce each additional vehicle and get that incremental production cost down to the point where they can afford to build and sell a lot of them and still make a little money (or at least break even).

This is where GM has, apparently, failed with their current crop of hybrids. Given their financial position, it’s not a mistake they should repeat.

[Reply]
Don Harmon Says:
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Someone please explain the quote by Prabhakar Patil who is the CEO of Compact Power Inc. “What I worry about is a black eye–if somebody puts a battery on the road prematurely, it would hurt the entire industry.” Exactly what does he mean? Is he afraid somebody will beat him to the market ? Or is he afraid that bad technology will damage his technolgy ? Well, Prabhakar - there will be a battery on the road before yours my friend, and a totally electric car well before the Volt (which is not totally electric), the Think or the Tesla.

Just wait a few more weeks and you will see it for yourself. I hope you don’t poke your eye out Prab.

[Reply]
Jeff Sutter Says:
April 24th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

#66 Charlie H

Of course you’re dead right. At $47,500 Californians will be able to buy the BEV Phoenix short bed pickup later this year. With a >100 mile range it covers most commutes. I don’t know whether the dramatically reduced maintenance footprint (25% of ICE) and the fuel efficiency will actually cost justify it, but there’s an outstanding chance that the vehicle will last for 250K miles using up rear breaks and tires only. That buys a lot of time to amortize capital premium.

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Jeff Gudme Says:
June 3rd, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Its about time they made an electric car that looks cool most of them look like something most people would not want to be seen in, but the Volt looks tough like a real car should. I am excited for the Volt to be available for purchase and will be one of the first in line to buy it when its available, so don’t underproduce them GM. Everyone is going to want one especially when gas prices will most likely be over 6 dollars a gallon by 2010. HURRY!!!

[Reply]
Jeff Maxon Says:
July 19th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Please hurry up with the Volt!!Do you think maybe it can be ready by the end of 2009.I will be buying one as soon as they are available if it is under $30,000.It will be for my wife.She mostly drives around town each day(under 40 miles),so the little gas generator will probably never have to run.We will be able to go a whole month(or two)on the one12 gallon tank.

[Reply]

Even Chevy Volt Battery Suppliers Surprised at GM’s Volt Aggressiveness

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