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Will the Volt be Too Powerful?
Mike Allen is the senior automotive editor for Popular Mechanics. In a new article he seems to take issue with Detroit’s strategy that plug-in hybrid vehicles have powerful powertrains. He is in fact taking aim at the Volt.
He invokes images of the famous VW (hippie) microbuses that had 40 hp engines, and recommends that PHEV’s would be better off emulating them.
He recommends PHEVs use a 10 hp microgenerator that could propel highly aerodynamic cars at 60 to 70ph when the battery is drained, and be able produce heat, so that energy of heating the car won’t have to be drained from the battery.
We don’t know the final specs of the Volt’s on-board ICE , but we do know it will be a ‘family zero’ 1.0 L engine with 3 or 4 cylinders turning a 53 kW generator. Of course, the electric drivetrain motor is powerful, giving 0 to 60 of 8.5 seconds and peak speed of 100 mph.
GMs argument is that people still want to maintain and enjoy powerful driving, even when going electric. Allen counters that it may be time for a change in driving expectations in this more energy economical world, aka the VW microbus analogy.
So do we think it would be better to have a smaller on-board microgenerator presumably paired with a less powerful electric engine?
I don’t know about that, but I like the picture that came with the article (above) of the Cont/A123 li-ion prototype pack being raised into the Chevy Volt prototype mule.
Source (Popular Mechanics )
140 Responses to “Will the Volt be Too Powerful?”
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April 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
First they shrink the gas tank. Now they are talking about cutting of its balls? Whats this world coming too!!
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April 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
A 10hp engine would be a perfect way to sell zero Volts. This guy needs to wake up.
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April 14th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
I don’t know about anyone else, but I wouldn’t be interested in a vehicle that had so little power. In south Florida, if your driving 60 mph on I-95, you may as well drive in the breakdown lane.
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April 14th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
This is fun! Its going to get worse. A new car for a new age. NOBODY has a clue as to what it should be like. Now that the Volt is getting its head above water where it can be seen the fire will begin to fly soon. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
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April 14th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
No, it should not have a less powerful engine or less output form the electric motor. The original concept is what is getting us all excited about, not a watered down version. Lets stay innovative and pave the path forward to a better future…we should not have to give up the performance along the way.
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April 14th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
I like the current Volt specs and wouldn’t change a thing. Maybe driving expectations need to change but I’ll take the zip and speed of the Volt over something like a 1954 VW Beetle which I once owned. 36hp, barely made 75mph and no heat…nada.
The time may come when we have to scale back our driving expectations, but I highly doubt it. There will always be a people with vision and invention that are able to create new technologies to solve problems and give people what they want. GM is doing just that, right now, for us, with the Volt!
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April 14th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Comparing the Volt to a 60’s VW microbus says it all. I subscribe to PM, and this is the same magazine that Picked the Nissan Titan pickup over the Chevy Silverado.
Take this with a grain of salt.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
I agree with most other posts. Don’t change the volt. That’s all we need is all the negative articles that would come out from an underpowered vehicle. ‘Electric cars, just don’t compare to gas engines’
After it’s proven that they can be as good (and in some ways better) than an economy version with a lot less power would be fine.
An Aveo type car that goes 240 miles on a charge or whatever.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
If the volt can’t sustain speeds of at least 80mph for 30+ miles then its off to a new camaro or CTS for me……….
This think will also need a well tuned suspension. Power is not the only factor but it needs to be able to handle. That might be asking for too much in VOLT 1.0 but 2.0 better have the power and suspension that would pull the masses.
I’m not sure what the percentage of people that drive the Prius are under 40 years old but I’m sure its not high. I hoping the VOLT can break that and appeal to the young as well as the older.
One other thought, don’t think GM isn’t working on using this technology for other platforms. Don’t be surprised to see this technology finding its way into Trucks, SUVs and dare a I say sport cars. An electric solstice or sky would cut the legs of Tesla from under them. I bet they are working on it already….my hunch is that next gen equinox will see it fairly quickly. But those are just guesses.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
I too want power. I’m enthusiastic about the potential electric cars can offer. Personally I really want something 0-60 in 5.4seconds or less but I will make a little sacrifice to get the volt and avoid the gas stations. I’m sure there will be ways to tweak it once the aftermarket products start coming out.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
This is an extremely important point to discuss. We need to have a national discussion about this. I KNEW this was going to rear its head eventually.
The point is, WHY DO WE DRIVE? Is it to get from point A to point B? There are lots of ways to do that.
Why have public transportation methods largely failed in the US?
Wouldn’t train travel be more efficient than planes?
I have an opinion that I think is shared by most. We drive because we LOVE to and we WANT to! At least most of us. There are a few out there who truely hate driving, and you can tell by what they drive. Driving is a personal expression of freedom, just like our homes, our clothes, our music, etc…
People do not live in boring, efficiency homes; wear colorless, boring clothes, listen to the same music. We have a life, we are free to express. We spend incredible amounts of money to build roads that allow us the freedom to roam.
Why on earth should we be forced to drive vehicles with no soul, no design, no power, etc..? Just because it is more efficient? Will we then be expected at some point to build our homes underground too?
This argument is insane. We must make a stand (loudly!) that life on earth is more than about what is the most logical solution to our common problems. It is about accomplishing goals in elegant and creative ways, while still being responsible, and safe.
Otherwise, we might as well not be here at all. This just burns me up.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I read that article earlier today, and wanted to reach through my laptop and slap that guy. The ICE has been reduced in hp already, but effing granolas always want to inflict a punishment car on you, so that you don’t drive at all.
Eventually, we will have a fully green vehicle, no carbon or pollutants at all, so you have to wonder what they will gripe about next.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
I thought PM was more practical than theoretical. Guess I had it backwards. There are electric cars like that today. They aren’t flying off the shelves, and the common term for them is “glorified golf cart”.
But the vast majority of the population is waiting for a Volt like car with few compromises, AND little or no gas.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
The Popular Mechanics is wrong about the heating system. My understanding was that the Volt would use a heat pump (just run the A/C in reverse). If the heat pump is 250% to 300% efficient, not uncommon for air source heat pumps in terms of carbon emissions it would be about the same per BTU output comparing heat pump + grid power with burning gasoline for heat in the car. Then if the grid becomes cleaner so does the Volt’s heating system. Also the same equipment does the A/C.
To get public acceptable of electric vehicles they need similar performance and range to conventional ICE vehicles. A price premium will be accepted.
Just like buying much other equipment — compare with LCD TV. People paid a premium for the early ones. Now who would have purchased LCD TVs if they were lower resolution than standard TVs. I’ll tell you – next to no one. Just like it is hard to sell range and performance inhibited EVs.
It is all price related. However, show the public a crappy performance low range vehicle and the concept is dead for a decade, EVs are already thought of as gold carts. US public still thinks that desiels are chunky. Show them something really cool, and they will wait for the price to come down.
GM have it right.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
There is nothing wrong with what this guy is suggesting BUT MOST people don’t want that. The VOLT is NOT about all these variations that people keep suggesting. whether it is smaller engines, solarcells on the roof, no range extender, wifi etc etc. All those things have their place but should not be considered for the Volt.
The Volt is suppose to be a car that get adequate range on the battery and is as much like a regular car as it can be. GM is trying to sell the public on electric cars and catering to niche markets with the initial vehicle does not accomplish that goal.
If the Volt came out underpower aka golfcart. this would show the public that electric cars suck. Not in 1.0 please.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
I think GM is on the right track, and Mike Allen is a reporter who obviously doesn’t know all that much about selling cars. Making the volt appeal to a small demographic is a great way to make it a flop. I know that where I live, if you can’t get get up and go when you get on the highway, you’ve got a good change of causing an accident.
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
One of the most important things the Volt must do is compete with ICE vehicles, not on EPA, but on performance. If Mike Allen had his way, this wouldn’t happen and we’d be talking about possible electric cars again in 2030.
Wake up! I never cease to be amazed at all the dumb PM articles over the years. They have a higher article/advertising content than Pop. Science, but the quality in many of those articles just isn’t there.
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
The Volt needs to be powerful enough to impress the people that are skeptical about electric vehicles, high power and torque are a major attraction when purchasing a new vehicle.With the Volt being powerful and eco-friendly, what more could you ask for in an automobile and why would anybody want to buy a different car???
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
It’s the paradigm shift he is talking about that is the problem. He basically thinks that maybe we should be driving around golf carts instead of cars. If we are not careful, floating ideas like this gain traction in some circles. We need to say, unequivocally, that future cars need to inspire, not just move us from point A to point B.
It’s bad enough that magazines like Consumer Reports have convinced a lot of people that cars are appliances. To CR, a car is nothing more than an expensive toaster, unworthy of any sort of allegance or affection. If cars do indeed morph into glorified golf carts, then we lose; they win. Our children and grand children lose. We need to make some noise about this and put this idea in the ground, permanently.
This is the proverbial slippery slope of gigantic proportions.
I have lost large amounts of respect for Popular Mechanics. That’s too bad, I thought they would have encouraged this type of innovation.
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Maybe we should only shower once a week to conserve water too.
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Anybody ever read Orwell’s 1984?
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
This suggestion of giving the Volt anemic performance is complete horse____.
It’s hard enough as it is to lure people away from their SUVs and sports cars. Does Mike Allen think it will make the Volt more popular by turning it into a “penalty box?”
This author must work for big oil. That’s the spirit. Sabotage the first serious effort at a mass-market electric car by giving it the performance of an old VW bug. Frickin’ genius.
I don’t know how this guy doesn’t trip over his own rhetorical shoelaces in the morning. For clear-headed thinking on this subject, ignore PM and go read Amory Lovins on the supercar.
Sheesh.
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
It’s my understanding that with electric drive, you don’t need to choose between performance and economy. You can have both.
That’s because economy is determined by how much power you *use*, not by the power “available”.
So if you use only 50HP, you get the economy of 50HP. It doesn’t matter if the motor is capable of 50HP, 160HP (like the Volt) or 260HP (like the Tesla Roadster).
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
If some people want to put put around in NEV’s, fine, but some of us have to drive for work, and time is money, so please stay out of the way……………
GM has the sense to realize that people like to get in a car and go!
And now they realize that we would also like to go as far as possible on electric power, but we still want to go!
PM is WAY off the track on this one.
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April 14th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
The guy from PM must be on LSD, or something. Giving the Volt a smaller motor would be like NASCAR having 150hp instead of what they have now, it jus won’t happen.
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Yet another bad idea. When Hybrids first came out the feedback from the buyers was they were too gutless. The second generation Prius was more powerful than the first. The number one complaint concerning the Insight was lack of power. We do not need zero to 60 in less than 4 seconds, but less than 9 is a good target.
The Camry Hybrid outsold the V6 Hybrid for the first time recently. And the Hybrid is less powerful than the V6 but more powerful than the 4 banger. Its equivant HP is about 192, and so that seems to be the sweet spot in the power range. And that is right about where the Volt is. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Martin Eberhard of Tesla wrote early on that the more powerful they made the electric motor the more efficient it became, almost like cheating.
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
I have to say I am impressed by these responses. I thought at least a few people would agree with this dolt from PM. Apparently we have some pretty smart people here.
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I’ve never subscribed to PM. It’s not coincidence…
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Honestly, Mike Allen is a douche. Pop Mech SAE obviously doesn’t have a clue.
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
“So do we think it would be better to have a smaller on-board microgenerator presumably paired with a less powerful electric engine?”
No, we do not think that would be better!
I hope for a great success for GM and the Volt. You don’t have great success with mediocroty! They need to produce an innovative car that compares favorably to other cars that are not only already out there, but to those in the process of coming to market.
The consumer wants power, comfort and efficiency. Not a underpowered eco-box!
As for the competition:
Prius is already producing a reliable gas saver. Not the most stylish, but within a price range of affordability.
Tesla has a nice car for a small niche but it is highly priced with a short range.
Fisker is planning ( and receiving 50 – 100 pre-orders per week) for what is esssentially a luxury sport model “Volt”
GM needs to think about what made it great many years ago. That is to deliver innovative cars, that people feel good about driving, at a price within the reach of the average American!
I hope Volt will do what it takes to succeed . . . and not fall victim to those who suggest that “it may be time for a change in driving expectations. ”
Americans have always been known for innovativons that increase expectations, not the reverse.
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:03 am
He seems to be talking more about the range-extending generator being small, not necessarily the electric motor itself. I think his idea is noble but I don’t think people would take to it very well. I am pretty “granola” (been known to shower roughly every other day, take the train instead of the car, and other things mentioned above) but I do like it when cars have a bit of pep. The general public would be far less forgiving.
I must say I have no idea where he gets his “facts” for this article. Apparently he believes the Chevy Volt (or similar) will have its ranged HALVED just by having various other electrical systems running. What on earth is he talking about? The Volt WILL in all likelihood be able to do a 15 mile commute to and from work without burning a gallon of gas. Why is he phrasing this goal in terms of “what if?”
By the way, with a 15 mile commute one might consider the most efficient form of transportation ever created – the bicycle.
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:31 am
I have a better idea than Mark Allen’s.
Make the Volt fly. That would probably sell more cars than a
smaller ICE will. No one wants an NEV as a primary car.
They don’t work too well on the highway.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:46 am
100 mph!! who drives that fast? you’d go to jail where i live.
I would take a volt that could only do 80 or 90 if it meant a quicker 0 to 60 time (without sacrificing range).
Isn’t that why an electic motor is so great, no torque curve.
So i agree give me at least the power of my 98 escort.
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April 15th, 2008 at 2:31 am
They’re putting a battery in a mule! Cool. I wonder if they were just doing a fit test or preping for a run?
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April 15th, 2008 at 3:42 am
Lets start with performance,
Anyone can build electric golf carts like the PM editor wants.
PM authors are so lame. 40Hp Microbus pfffft.
The only thing they had going for them was air cooled engine, which was also their bigest enviromental / inefficent down fall.
Don’t think anyone wants to re live those experiences in second gear up a steep hill at snails pace.
PM – oh please …….
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April 15th, 2008 at 4:05 am
I want people to give up their cars, move to houses that are not bigger than one room per person, grow their own veggies, collect water on site and of course use solar power for everything. I also want a golden pony.
Just because we should do some things that are better for the earth doesn’t mean people are ready for that kind of change, unless it was thrust on them. If there was no food then they would gladly sell their car for a loaf of bread. We’re not that bad off… Yet.
The other train of thought is that we should use more energy! I actually agree with this way of thinking. Of course the energy used would have to be renewable as well as other used resources. We need to eventually learn to harness all of the energy and resources on earth. When achieve that we can then call ourselves a class 1 civilization (a ranking used by scientists). We are only a class 0 civilization now.
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April 15th, 2008 at 4:23 am
I’m with pretty much with everybody here.
I want my Volt to be as it has been shown already. A real Chevy! E-rev with 40 mile AER at end of life. Personally, I consider the whole debate over how powerful we should be making our cars largely irrelevant and an unnecessary flapping of gums. We Americans love our cars and our highways. The problem is not that our cars are too fast, although they don’t need to get any faster. Instead the problem is that our cars use gasoline and nothing but. Unless it’s a diesel, in which case it is the same problem: it is oil-powered.
The discussion should return to the genuine promise of e-revs, the promise of using more advanced engines as range-extenders that can run on sustainable biofuels, and in time be lightweighted. The promises of V2G should be a recurring theme in America’s vision for our automotive future, as well as the promise of ever cleaner electricity. And finally, the talk should also be put more on taking away our dependence on our cars for commuting and we, as a nation, should modernize our transportation system to include more trains, trolleys, better buses, water transport, and when we can airships. Yes, I said airships! That should be included in our transportation future too.
Zeppelins were flying well enough until the early airplanes took off, so to speak, in the mid 20th century, all based on the 20th century cheap oil era. Airship designs are more advanced now, and they should be built in mass to supplement rail traffic. If you can get passengers and cargo place to place at the speed of conventional rail, then you can also use airships, and with minimal infrastructure investment. We should be talking about all of these things, not just saying our cars have too much power. The Volt designs are awesome just as they are!
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April 15th, 2008 at 5:21 am
Hi everyone, I have much work those days that I cannot comment a lot.
Being in Europe a much more reglemented part of the world than the U.S. of A., I’m used to attemps to limit our freedom more often than you do.
This PM paper affraids me :even in the U.S. of A. there are people thinking we should limit our freedom for the sake of energy conservation. On the other way, I’m supportive of initiatives like the GM-VOLT able to give us more freedom, less state control, and a more confortable life NOT a LESS confotable life, WITH LESS freedom and MORE state control.
So I hope the Volt would be a more fun car to drive than our ICE ones, more appealing, more efficient, AND NOT LESS.
BTW in Europe they intend to use the 1.3 l CDTI diesel engine to power the generator. I have this engine in my Opel Corsa and it rates 70 hp. With a variable geometry turbocompressor it may get up to 90 hp.
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April 15th, 2008 at 5:29 am
Forums always brings out the extremest like Mike Allen. He is to be ignored. I find it strange someone like him can come out of the blue and give his views on something he knows little about. He’s not even and engineer.
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April 15th, 2008 at 5:39 am
I wonder what Mr. Allen was smoking in his VW Micro Bus back in the day? He obviously doesn’t have a firm grip on the reality or experience at driving on US highways.
No one is saying it needs to go 100mph plus for every day driving, but damn it you need some REAL reserve power to pass, and get yourself out of harms way sometimes.
If GM were to neuter the Volt like that I’d walk away from the whole idea of it and never look back. Now I KNOW why I don’t know ANYONE who reads PM outside the doctor’s office waiting room. And that copy always seems to be WAY out dated for some reason… and just like Mr. Allen’s thinking, they both just crawled out of the back of a VW micro bus, smelling very BAD!
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April 15th, 2008 at 5:45 am
Not only do I disagree with Mike Allen, I think he has some basic facts about electric motors wrong.
In old, ICE engines, the larger the engine the less efficient. In electric motors that’s not the case. The larger the electric motor the more efficient it is. So giving the Volt an anemic engine hurts efficiency for what most consider 80-90% of driving time.
The only time having the small engine even helps is for long, pure gas trips. On the entire pure electric run time it’s more efficient to have a larger motor.
If they want to save energy they could limit the acceleration and speed, but the smart way to do that would be electronically even so.
Bad idea all the way around. Why cripple a car that could change the world to save so little.
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April 15th, 2008 at 5:45 am
Oh Good Grief…..
When will the North American consumer get their head out of their arse and realize that they have been duped into believing that they have to drive the biggest, fastest, most powerful…etc., vehicle? The point that can be taken from the PM article is that a successful vehicle needs to be available to the average consumer NOT the elitist, hence the reference to the VW. If GM wants this vehicle to be a success then build it to be affordable and practical (and no, that doesn’t mean it has to be a slouch in traffic).
Ter
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April 15th, 2008 at 6:10 am
Good point Ter Meenal #39,
In Europe we have smaller cars than yours, usually less powerful but this doesn’t imply they are as dull as VW microvans.
A lot of carmakers keep they customers here because they improved both the appeal of the car : speed, power, torque, ease to use, confort, etc. AND decreased significantly and simultaneously the fuel consumption.
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April 15th, 2008 at 6:45 am
One point made in the PM article that no one here has addressed is the heating issue. I’m not sure how GM is handling it, based on previous posts. And please, no one mock about “creature comforts” if you don’t live somewhere that gets below zero every winter. Has GM solved this issue, or will I be driving while wearing my hunting gear with hand-warmer packets by every extremity? Does the PM guy’s solution for heating make any sense to anyone out there with an engineering background?
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April 15th, 2008 at 6:47 am
Although the some will side with Mike Allen……
I will vote with Tim Allen. … ooh, ooh MORE POWER!!!
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April 15th, 2008 at 7:15 am
I agree with Allen in theory, but for the Volt to compete in today’s marketplace, GM is going to have to make it both powerful and cheap. Under 125 horses or over 30K will be the death of this car.
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April 15th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Fortunately, Mike Allen is not part of the Volt design team…..schmuck.
The ONLY place we need 40 hp VW engines is in ALL the IC engine cars and sedans.
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April 15th, 2008 at 7:29 am
My expectations of the Volt would be no less acceleration/power than the EV1 demonstrated. I’ve read some where that the EV1 had anti-slip, likely built into the controlling electronics. No smoking tires from the EV1 but I’ll take “chirping”! Here’s a video of the EV1 “chirping it’s tires”. Note the response from the childs voice in the background.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3488120954418982750&q=chirping+ev1&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
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April 15th, 2008 at 7:43 am
#9 ksuhwail said “This thing will also need a well tuned suspension. Power is not the only factor but it needs to be able to handle. That might be asking for too much in VOLT 1.0 but 2.0 better have the power and suspension that would pull the masses.”
Actually, Volt 1.0 needs a well tuned suspension, not +/- 3 years later for Volt 2.0
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:00 am
Mike Allen, no we don’t want the volt to be another golf cart. We already have them. GM knows what they are doing leave them alone. go volt.
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:01 am
I’m just thankful he doesn’t work for GM. I love Popular Mechanics, but I wouldn’t drive the vehicle they are proposing. Call me wasteful, but i expect some pep for my $50k.
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:22 am
i would not buy a 30-40k POS electric car. hell i would not buy a POS anything. you would have to pay me to even put it in my drive way and i still would not drive it. SHOOT! PEP! i want the thing to MOVE!!
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:24 am
I’m hoping that the Volt does 0-60 in 7 seconds like Bob Lutz mentioned one time. The 120 mph top speed is nice to have too. Never know when you might need to “get out of dodge” in a hurry if you get lost in some creepy small town on a long trip … like in a few movies I’ve seen.
If the Volt gets exported to Germany, they’ll want to drive on the autobahn you know.
I’m hoping the engineers don’t have to make any major compromises with the Volt by the time it’s ready to go in 2010. I want as few changes to the performance of the Volt as possible … and as much “all electric range” as possible. Us Americans want it all if we can get it. We can’t help it.
I’m getting concerned about what they might have to do with the heating and air conditioning systems after reading this article.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/20556/page1/
I hear that GM is making the Volt its highest priority and Lutz said they were “going for the brass ring”, so maybe they’ll come up with some ingenious new technology for the A/C and heating. Maybe they can get this thermoelectric technology developed quickly so that the A/C and heating won’t be stealing too much juice from the batteries in the summer and winter.
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:35 am
I drove a VW microbus and a VW worktruck (a pickup version of the micro ). These were not fun, enjoyable or conveniet transportation. Neither vehicle had enough power to get out of its own way. Freeway onramps were dreaded, as were any close encounter with an truck.
Lets not romantisize these terrible vehicles, they were so underpowered as to be unsafe and and a chore to drive.
There is already a underpowered geek mobile on the market, the Prius.
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:41 am
I think there is a place for both types of models. As even the ugly and way under powered prius is selling, there will be some that want to squeeze every bit of effiency out of a car. while others want an electric car but still have 0-60. both types of cars would sell. but the first volt has to not be the under powered one. in fact, just put the power train in a different car altogether and call it something else with a less powerfull everything. put it in the saturn line. it will happen. you can bet on it.
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Wow, already past 49 posts!
Talk about “HIT A NERVE” !
Well, me too. Hey i have an ‘88 Olds “Cutlass” Calais with a Quad 4, DOHC, EFI, 5 speed and “header-like” exhaust manifold. If you never drove one of these (most folks haven’t) It is really a hoot! It does 65 in 3rd gear and with a speedometer that only goes to 85 i’ve buried the needle somewhere well past 85 in 5th! My favorite thang to do is wrap it up to about 45 in 3rd gear and hold it there. Then i ask my passenger to turn up the radio – as he starts to lean up & reach out i mash the accelerator and watch in joy as the poor soul can NOT reach the knob!
THE POINT IS THAT EVEN THEN I WOULD ROUTINELY GET 25 mpg and on a long trip, driving carefully i often get 30 +. This with late 80’s technology.
The Volt can be fun and practical and economical depending on your mood and or needs at the moment.
Mr. Allen – just keep your foot out of it and it can be your “microbus”
But we need to be able to occasionally romp on it and get a few jollies while still saving the planet. Especially when we pair it with home solar…
Rock on VOLT !
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:55 am
The day anyone would accept a vehicle with a 60-70 mph top speed is when gas is $10 a gallon and no automakers offer behemoths like the hybrid Tahoe anymore.
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April 15th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Just Jeff #50
I completly agree power and torque are essential element of safety.
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April 15th, 2008 at 9:14 am
After a more thorough read on the article, among other things his biggest goof is that he assumes that the Volt is a PHEV or an HEV for that matter, which it’s not. He never distinguishes that the Volt’s ICE does not propel the vehicle.
Again, how much credence are we going to give to someone who writes an article about something he knows nothing about?
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April 15th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Don’t cut off the balls. It gets enough greef for being an electric car as it is.
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April 15th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Oh my god my Mike allen is a complete and utter dumbass if he thinks that an underpowered Golf cart model would be okay for the volt. My uncle has a vdub hippie bus and I always hated driving it for you are just holding the pedal waiting to gain any sort of speed. It was less annoying to go just down the road 2-3 miles but any thing else it just plain outright sucked.
Living in the great state of Michigan my states whole economy is linked to the auto industry especially GM if GM does bad Mich does bad that is why I hope someone from GM will agree with both #28 Tim and #42BillR ’cause I sure do.
The only thing I drive is GM, started with a Chevy cavalier now have a Pontiac Grand Prix. Let’s just say I like the fact that my car has some major cahones and can get up and go. Since I love the concept the way it is(even though they shrunk the gas tank) if it turns into a glorified golf cart I may just have to buy a dodge when my GP dies(hopefully not in the near future).
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April 15th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Just Jeff #50
You are as misinformed about the Prius as Mike Allen is about the Volt. The Prius has a 0-60 acceleration of about 9 seconds–it’s got about as much zip as the very fun-to-drive Celica. It also is a 4-door hatchback with plenty of cargo room and hauling capacity and is generally a pleasure to own. That’s what earned it Motor Trend car of the year in 2004.
People think the mileage drops drastically on the highway, but that’s not true either. I recently drove mine 2,800 miles in all sorts of terrain, (averaging 44MPG), including 8-inch deep snow on dirt roads in Montana. The traction control combined wth electric motor torque means I never got stuck when even 4 x 4 SUVs were having trouble.
What would you ignorantly slam the Prius? You’ve probably never driven one, and just have no freaking clue.
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April 15th, 2008 at 9:41 am
And this is just one more example where we’ll have to wait for Volt 2.0 with OPTIONS. Like with range, we want to be able to choose our power. Wait people, and there will be choices.
As for now GM, stick with what you’ve got, and push this thing through!
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:05 am
The microbus the PM author refers to was probably a lot lighter than modern cars, which are subject to a lot more stringent safety standards.
Also, the 1.0 liter engine of ~73hp: that 73 hp is measured as the PEAK horsepower the engine can deliver at 5000+ rpm or so. At its most efficient operating speed, it would probably be delivering the 40-ish horsepower the author refers to. That’s the typical amount of power needed for maintaining a given speed – even a 4000+ pound Bugatti Veyron only uses 50hp to maintain 70mph.
Also for the record – I used to drive my old boss’s Prius around, and it was the most miserable driving experience of my life. Test-driving the AC Propulsion e-Box (an EV not entirely dissimilar in technology to GM’s EV1) was a world of difference. The volt will surely beat any next generation prius in driving dynamics.
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Mike Allen is the senior automotive editor for Popular Mechanics. Who cares what this guy thinks!
GM is right. People want economy without compromise. Personally, I still like AFS Trinity’s idea of utilizing ultracapacitors to buffer the power flow to and from the batteries. This will allow AFS Trinity to use a smaller and expensive battery pack in comparison because they can use 80% of the capacity instead of the Volt’s 50%.
AFS Trinity’s architecture can capture more regen braking energy and have that power available for acceleration at a cheaper price because the batteries pack is smaller and these packs will see less volume strain.
Then again, I’m still praying for EEStor to be real and for GM to listen and help them. That would make batteries moot altogether.
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:16 am
No wonder GM loves this site. If I were a guy in marketing vehicles, I’d run off the comments on this page and demand a raise for my total success getting the car so wedged into the psyche of Americans, they cannot conceive of having a car that just works as transportation.
Folks, to me a car is a toaster.
My toaster does not make a statement of who I am. It does something I need.
I don’t use my toaster to impress people I meet.
I don’t use my toaster as a way to get women to notice me.
I don’t care if your toaster makes toast faster than mine, because in the end, all I had to do was make toast.
I have things I want to spend money on, things that I enjoy, and a toaster is not one of them. Buying a car that goes 150 MPH when the speed limit from home to work never gets above 55 would be stupid for me, especially when buying that care drains money from what I want to spend money on.
I would drive a go-kart if I could, because I don’t attach to a vehicle the myriad of attributes that people did on this very page.
I could draft a list of not very nice things to say about your viewpoint, but did not. I’m just offering an alternative to the marketing machine that is GM.
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Ter Meenal #43.
I am a North American consumer. And for you information, the last time I had a Colonoscopy, I asked my doctor if he found my head up there.
He was very surprised by the question, but he said no. So I went home and told my wife that she was wrong.
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:47 am
This does bring up a topic that I have been wondering about. That is the motor drive electronics. Is the drive an open loop vector drive or is the motor commutation by way of an encoder feed back? Motor Drive technology has come so far in the past several years with open loop vector having tremendous performance, however a degree of efficiency can still be gained by encoder commutation. Also are the drive parameters at all adaptable or variable by the vehicle owner (I.E. performance mode vs economy mode)?
Thanks
Jeff
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Too much power? I don’t think so… The Volt is designed to be efficient and also to be able to manuver safely on todays roads in todays traffic. Thinking that the Volt will be able to do this with the equivalent power of an old vw is absolutely ubsurd. Lack of power is one of the main negatives I’ve seen in reviews of current hybrids. Let’s get a hybrid on the road that can keep up with the flow. The Volt is it.
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Jeff #68:
Good questions. For now the answer is: unknown at this time, as full specs and features have not been released.
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:58 am
I saw that article and realized that
1) Allen is a fool to recommend anything like that VW microbus – it was HORRIBLE – I remember being a passenger in my cousin’s bus on a trip – it barely could ascend a small mountain in Virginia. And it needed (really needed) a manual transmission, another undesirable characteristic in the modern era. It had the aerodynamics of a brick, although since it couldn’t get above 55 MPH, that didn’t matter so much.
2) Allen was raised and still believes that the whole problem is one of CONSUMPTION. That’s Jimmy Carter style stupidity. The world will always need more energy and the world can easily produce such energy. If we want to use coal (which we don’t) there is 600 years worth in Montana. If we wish to use solar thermal, there is enough to power the entire US in a square area of desert a mere 92 miles on each side, which is less than 10% of just the Federally owned land in Nevada.
Allen deserves to have his brain preserved as an example of impractical, mid-1970’s thinking.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:01 am
I want to slap this guy! Too powerful? Is he kidding? If he wants to drive around in a box kite with a vacuum cleaner motor and stack of laptop batteries go right ahead, he can even paint big flowers all over it to bring back the ’60s, but not me. I never read that magazine because it’s usually so full of errors and speculation that it’s laughable at times.
GM, please, IGNORE this nonsense. If anything, think about future models with MORE power.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Question: Will the Volt be Too Powerful?
Answer:
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Answer: No such thing.
Sorry for the two posts. Fat fingered it.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:15 am
I said a long time ago that I don’t care what the 0-60 time is, as long as it gets 40 miles of electric range.
Even so, I can only agree with Dave B at #63:
“As for now GM, stick with what you’ve got and push this thing through.”
You can’t say it any better than that.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Q: Who killed the electric car?
A: People like Mike Allen from Popular Mechanics.
“Allen counters that it may be time for a change in driving expectations in this more energy economical world, aka the VW microbus analogy.”
I like Popular Mech, but how arrogant is the Boomer anyhow still yammering on about the perfection of some wimpy 60’s bus? No, you can’t demand that consumers change their expectations to fit your products’ limitations. This isn’t even a huge savings if it were implemented. In a marketplace for something as important as a car, consumers chose reliability and familiarity. E.G. They don’t want to risk having some no power, slow acceleration, low top speed screwball automobile as their mode of transportation.
This attitude is what allowed the EV1 to get into limited production before more balanced heads at GM realized that range anxiety made the EV1 DOA. Congrats to Lutz for not letting impractical hippies like Mike Allen doom the Volt to a similar fate.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:28 am
We’ve got Mike Allen,senior automotive editor, telling us what we should want. And, by the way, you should feel guilty if you don’t agree.
On the other hand, we have Lyle posting the latest Volt information, and the GM team listening to our feedback, reading this forum, Volt Nation, etc.
I was trying to think of what exactly the difference is and finally came up with it… Arrogance.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:32 am
#66 Eco
Some toasters suit me more than others. I’m glad there is more than one type of toaster out there. I bought one a few months ago. I like it better than my old one. Maybe Volt 2.0 could include a toaster option for you.
You seem angry that others’ values differ from yours. Being intolerant and casting aspersions will appeal to like-minded individuals, but you won’t change those you rant against. Your approach seems bitter, unproductive, and doomed.
It isn’t clear what your “alternative to the marketing machine that is GM” is. You are free to buy a generic and slow car. It doesn’t bother me and I’m not mad at you for it. But, stay to the right and let traffic pass on the left.
You haven’t convinced me that we should all want the car you want. Apparently, neither has Mike Allen over there at Popular Mechanics.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:34 am
If is is in PS.
DON’T believe it!
They have a hard time getting there facts straight and don’t understand a lot of what they try to cover.
I use to go every issue and over time I started to see how wrong they would be on anything new.
Try to remember this is a Electric car for going to work and small trips
not a high speed car for Friday & Saturday nights
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Regardless of Allen and others, I want a Chevy Volt that looks and performs as close to the concept car as possible. That is the car we all fell in love with. I am willing to purchase one ASAP as long as GM doesn’t vary too much from the concept. How much variation, I don’t know. We will all make that decision when when it is finally available on the market.
Let’s keep GM informed, but not get too far off the subject. And keep giving GM credit where credit is due, but let them know when they are wrong. But, please, give them encouragement to get it done as soon as possible.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Eco #66
No problem at all with your opinions or your veiws on what a car means to you. This is the whole point, the car means something different to everyone. To some I know, the car is EVERYTHING; to others its utility is most important; to others, fuel mileage is paramount. I know others who don’t give a hoot what there car looks like, smells like, or who made it. The point is there is no reason we all can not live in harmony. Car manufacturers need to serve us all.
The problem is when someone (the PM writer) feels there view is superior to all the others; and want everyone to change to their point of view. This means loss of freedoms, loss of choice, loss of versatility, etc.. It is a version of Orwell’s 1984; the powers in charge restrict innovation, limit choice, and tell you it’s for your own good.
I don’t think anyone wants to live that way. Responsibility, creativity, and choice can co-exist. There never needs to be a single universal solution or approach to any problem. Certainly not when it comes to cars.
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April 15th, 2008 at 11:49 am
66 Eco,
Your toaster analogy falls flat because behind a home, a car purchase is the most important expenditure most families ever make. That means accounting for variables that pie in the sky idealist normal can’t comprehend. Also you post attacks Americans, this forum and GM simply for having a different viewpoint or even set of priorities then your’s. That is kind of childlike condescension, and to me sums up the conceitedness of so many within the Environmentalist movement and why I no longer associate with it.
Just because you don’t want a car that accelerates as fast as other cars does not make you a better person then others. If you have some logical, factual case why the others on this board are wrong for disagreeing with Mike Allen, make it. We’re adults here, which means we can disagree about abstract things without resorting to passive aggressively attacking large groups of people. As it stands, you and Mike Allen have completely failed to make any case.
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Interesting topic for next thread will be the pounding the Volt is taking over at EV World today. Ouch
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Put the Volt out with the low power setup Mr. Allen prescribes would consign it to a fate worse than Edsel, if that is possible.
Rather than “lowered expectations”, and driving around waiting to get run over, the expectation that will sell is greatly reduced operating cost and pollution output while maintaining reasonable power and amenities.
Mr. Allen, we’ll leave the hair shirt for your personal use.
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
It is all just comments and opinions…. GM already has all the hard stuff done… Mules have been running for 6 Months….. they are getting ready for the actual “Real” batteries to go into the mules… This also means that the bulk of the sofware/hardware issues relating to the batteries are in their final stages… The body of the car is only a short time away from being finalized.. So now , all GM has to do is finalize the testing,, get the production plant up to speed and start producing the VOLT..
I am ready now but will wait for my Black Volt With all the options.. 2010 / 2011 at the latest…
If I am unable to get one by Mid 2011.. all bets are off as I WILL need and will purchase an Electric and/or Hybrid at that time…
GM Can you hear me now… How about now?
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
#82 John – I’m curious about that. Got a link?
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Link to EV world article.
Don’t let your children read it. It is pretty tough.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-great-hybrid-showdown-chevrolet-volt-vs-toyota-prius/
I would like to know where the “32 miles” on the battery came from.
I hadn’t heard that before.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I’ll make this statement regarding the Volt vs. Prius.
I don’t believe the Volt will be any competition to the Prius if GM
prices the Volt out of range for the masses.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I’ve got a message for Mr. Allen: please lead by the power of example, drive a golf cart and live in a 400sf condo, this way your carbon footprint will be as low as your IQ.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Truly, there is an issue with getting the general public to accept a car that isn’t what they are used to. If the the public was really all that concerned about the environment and gas prices, they would all be driving Honda Civics right now. But really most people like having fast and stylish cars. The speed limit on the NJ turnpike is 65 and I set my cruise to 70. I have to stay in the slow lane because 90% of the the drivers are doing 80 or better, weaving in and out of traffic. These people aren’t going to buy a car that can’t go fast when they want it to. That’s the only way GM is going to sell a car like the Volt…convince the speed demons out there that they can still drive that way with a car that’s unlike any other they are used to.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Thoroughly in keeping with his 1970’s warped minset, Allen apparently is still operating under the delusion that weight is the big factor for economy in the age of electrified autos. Sorry, Mike, going small is thinking backwards – weight ain’t the big penalizer it used to be – now it’s aero and rolling resistence. That VW microbus with the aerodynamics of a brick that Allen is gfond of, would be THE most inefficient vehicle one can imagine. Mike Allen needs to get transported to the present – the obsolete and invalid asumptions
he is operating under are apparent from his really poor arguents ,and are embarrassing.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
The comments to the EV World article in #85 have one common thread running through them.
If GM proposes it, then forget it. Their reputation means it will fail or it was a bad idea or it was a bad implementation, etc.. You get the picture.
If Toyota proposes it, it must be great because we ALL know Toyota would never produce anything that was not 100% dependable, reliable and well thought out.
This argument is the biggest headwind GM faces in the public perception game.
As far as I’m concerned, let them wallow around in their circle over there. I feel GM knows the game has changed, they are committed like at no other time in recent memory, and they will over deliver with the Volt. I wonder what will be the discussion then?
Should make for interesting reading.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
I think comparing the Volt vs. the Prius is fun too, but they are both going to sell out anyway. They will not be stealing sales from each other.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
#85 Rashiid
I read the article. Interesting but so one-sided. So slanted in favor of imports and particularly Toyota. I don’t believe the 35 miles range either. GM has been reporting for some time that 50 miles on a charge is more likely for the first 10 years and that is with these battery packs in 2008. No telling what they will do in 2010 or if they incorporate estore’s capacitors or others. In addition, the article mentions $4 gallon gas. We’re there already….do these journalists live where gas is around $2. Like gas will slowly creep up to $4 by 2010? Hell, it went up .36 cents alone yesterday in most of Michigan and it’s heading higher. Experts predict now that we will see $5 & $6 gallons of gas before 2010 if India and China continue their economic expansion. That changes the whole equation.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
#85 & 86 Rashiid Amul:
It is pretty tough. You are clearly dead right in #86.
If it was only about money, we would just keep driving our Impala. At $4.00/gallon, the math between the paid off, lower insurance, lower registration Impala and the Prius is about the same as the math between the Prius and the Volt. But, as we have discussed here so many times, it’s about a lot more than money. I only hope that the Feds and the states can see that when they consider legislation to incentivize plug in hybrids.
BTW, as I went to open this site, I couldn’t help glancing at the Yahoo headlines:
“Oil reaches nearly $114/barrel, gasoline hits record high.”
$4.00/gallon is going to be nothing but a fond memory in our lifetimes.
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April 15th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
While a low power, even more efficient Volt might be a great option for some, I personally would choose the more powerful version in a heartbeat for myself.
I currently drive my 25 MPG, 2 Ton, V8 80 miles a day to work and back. I love every minute of it. The current specs on the Volt are a little slower than my car in terms of acceleration but definitely respectable. I would gladly drive one and get the benefits of energy economy.
I hope they keep the Volt powerful. If they want to develop a low-end option for regular commuters that’s fine too.
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April 15th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
If I wanted a gutless golf cart, I’d buy a gutless golf cart!!!!!
No Power = No Sale!!!!
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April 15th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Good Lord this PM guy was be a real leftover hippie reject that was too high to remember how slow those old microbuses are. I own at the moment six old air cooled VW’s, I’m a huge addict. HOWEVER, when I rebiuld an engine, I make it larger displacement so I CAN CLIMB HILLS!!! I have seen here a couple times people complain about the heating systems. Maintain them, they heat just fine, with the exception of the microbuses and Vanagons. Please, please please, PM, if you can’t remember the sixties, don’t make incredibly stoopid comments on how much we would all like to be stuck behnd an underpowered vehicle going up a hill. And here in the greater Seattle area, we got bunches of hills and underpowered old Microbuses. I want a Volt that is compareable to my Olds Achieva, not my 72 Micro Camper. If you want a slow accelerating car, go buy an old automatic Subaru, if that makes you feel all warm inside. Yikes!!!!!
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April 15th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Face reality. A barrel of oil is now $113.85. Gas prices are soaring.
The market needs affordable & practical solutions. Automakers need steady & continuous profit sources. GM needs Volt to be a vanilla choice… appealing to a very, very wide consumer base.
Enthusiasts here that desire more than what is actually required will do more harm than good. To sell a vehicle in large volumes, the design must be well balanced.
In other words, too much power is just as bad as too little. There’s a happy middle. Finding it means learning the difference between NEED and WANT.
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April 15th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Yeah, I didn’t buy a Prius because it IS a dog. Motor trend managed to coax out 0-60 of 9.8 (more like 10 than 9) and a quarter in 17.04 but I doubt any body else does. drag times has best quarter at 17.7 and one at 18.5, which is much more like the 11 second 0-60 dog we all know it is.
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_04_coy_win/specs_price.html
http://www.dragtimes.com/Toyota–Prius-Drag-Racing.html
And also there’s no rear seat headroom for me (6′2″) which was a real deal breaker as I expect my kids to grow as tall and nobody who is tall should ever have to sit in the back of a Prius.
From a safety factor, there is no way I would ever drive a dog car on our Silicon valley CA freeways with some incredibly short on-ramps and fast traffic (can you get to 70mph in a few hundred feet?!?). Frankly, I swore I’d never buy another car that accelerated 0-60 in less than 8 seconds again, because I’ve needed the acceleration too many times to keep from getting rear-ended. I’m willing to give the Volt a break at 8.5 though because, well, 8.5 is at least not horrible and the car is doing so much else right; can’t have everything on the first try.
Come to think of it, 2 of my friends with Priuses have been rear-ended. Coincidence? Who knows. Hardly a scientific study, yet our perceptions and experiences are largely why we buy the cars we do.
Am I bashing hybrids? Not at all, I bought an Accord Hybrid, 0-60 in 6.6 and awesome mileage for its performance. Not as good mileage as the Prius, but it’s a much bigger car, too, that tall people can actually fit in.
Anyway, that’s what I want. More power, less gas. Electric drivetrains can give us our cake and eat it too (although I’ve never understood that phrase, really).
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April 15th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
So, Program it with several modes. 50’s Bettle depressing power for the absolute geeky taped together eye glass crown. A mode for average and another mode for sport. it’s just a software program.
now you made “Vanilla” with what ever sprinkles you want on top. Thank god some of you are not in marketing….yikes.
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April 15th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
…and…just think of all the EXTRA fuel that will be burned as all the traffic races around the suggested non thrilling slug with no power….sheeeeeesh…OK rant off.
Build the concept. Period.
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April 15th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Rashiid #89
I don’t believe that ultimately they have any intention of doing so. The first 10K are a different story. I know as do most, that I won’t get one of the first 10k, and if there are people out there willing to pay $45k or even $50K+ (and there will be..for sure) , let them contribute revenue to the Volt project that will gear up for for the next year and perhaps Gen2.
This entire project isn’t easy and landing it is indeed like a moon shot. Understanding this I’m willing to be reasonable and and supportive of the entire effort. I agree, it would be nice if they were priced at $30K out of the starting blocks, but this may not be possible, and if those first takers are willing to help GM recoup and gear up for future success, all the more to them.
****
…just an experiment to see if it snags an almost identical comment…
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April 15th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Mike Allen sounds like he has a great idea for selling cars to a niche market of buyers. He should start a company and start building them. He could make Millions.
Meanwhile, GM is a mainstream company, not a niche builder. They need to build the Volt to mainstream needs. That means performance that matches current mainstream products. That way GM can sell them to the mainstream and make Billions.
The reality of light weight cars is that the passengers and cargo don’t get any lighter when they are put in a lightweight car. A family of five with a weekend of gear will greatly affect performance of a lightweight car with a small power plant.
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April 15th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Too bad Mike didn’t have a Chief – Editor to review his article. Perhaps the editor would have said, “where is any substantiation here other than vague nostalgia about your youth?” “Take this back to your word processor and get out of my office (or was that a Selectric)!”
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April 15th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
GM needs to make sure that the Volt stacks up reasonably well in side by side comparisons with the 2008 Toyota Prius and the upcoming 3rd generation Prius … even though there will be a sizable price difference between them. GM cannot afford to UNDERESTIMATE the competition when it comes time to rollout the Volt in 2010.
The whole company needs to get focused on making this car a success. Lots of number crunching should be going on in all the departments. People tend to end up buying a car based on emotional reasons and then justify it later with logic based on things they read in brochures, the internet, etc. I’m sure GM knows the main reasons people buy cars by know. They just need to do a good bit of extra homework for the Volt.
It’s not “just another car”. It’s probably the start of a HUGE wave of innovation in the auto industry in the next 10 years. I’d like to see GM come out of the gates with a hit car with the Volt 1.0 and outshine Toyota in the hybrid world. I’m sure Bob Lutz would love to retire going out like that. It would be like a head coach retiring after winning the championship.
GM doesn’t make a “power split hybrid” like the 2008 Prius for a good “apples to apples” comparison. Not yet anyway. The Volt is called a “series hybrid” by the US government testing labs (Argonne). GM calls it an E-REV because it is fundamentally an electric car with an electric motor ONLY driving the wheels … plus a built in battery charger … like one of those Honda portable generators.
I also hear that Toyota is going to make a “plug-in Prius” by around 2010 or 2011 … supposedly for around $30,000, but it will probably be more like $35,000-40,000 like the Volt could end up being unless there are some really good government incentives. I’m not sure if it will be a “series hybrid” or not. I’m guessing that Toyota will name the “plug-in Prius” something else to avoid confusion. This “plug in Prius” is THE car that GM needs to compare well to. It looks like there will be “regular hybrids” like the 2008 Prius in one category and “premium plug-in hybrids” like the Volt and the upcoming “plug in Prius”.
Your average hybrid car shopper is going to need to read up about the difference between the two hybrid technologies or they’ll be confused. They need to know that series hybrids have more sophisticated and larger batteries that need extra cooling, etc.
Until factories get the “economies of scale” series hybrid batteries are going to be expensive like the first HDTVs were. The current Prius uses older technology nickel metal hydride batteries that are smaller and cheaper. That is why the Prius costs $24,000 or whatever it is. Toyota has lithium ion batteries on their roadmap … so we’ll see what happens with hybrid car prices in the next few years. Toyota’s lithium ion cars will probably creep up to the 30s.
The whole auto industry needs to get the costs of lithium ion battery technology DOWN … soon … so average Joes can afford to buy ‘em. Gas prices are killing us average Joes already, so the idea of a 100-150 mpg car is going to look VERY compelling if gas is $4-5 a gallon in the next year or so. Lots of Volts will probably be sold purely based on people’s “pain at the pump”. People generally like to avoid economic pain whenever possible you know.
GM needs to show some clear, compelling features and advantages in their advertising that people will understand in their marketing of the Volt to justify the higher price. I know what they are. GM’s marketers definitely need to know what they are and how to communicate them optimally to car buyers. GM needs to get their best advertising and marketing folks involved EARLY to make sure the engineers are getting their feedback … and vice versa. The name of the game is making the customer happy with the car purchase over the long haul so they keep coming back for more GM products.
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April 15th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
#100 John said
“GM needs Volt to be a vanilla choice… appealing to a very, very wide consumer base.”
This wonderful statement is absolutely right, perhaps for an unexpected reason. Vanilla is not a “plain” flavor, but rather an exotic flavor. Vanilla caused a sensation and sold out all around the USA when it was first imported and available. New, unusual, with very broad appeal — both vanilla and the (powerful) Volt.
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April 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Rashiid #88:
The link to the article is a subject in the forum we have been talking about for five days now. The writer of that article asked us for our comments, but then basically told us we were all wrong with our opinions….
Here is a link to the thread in the forum. You guys should check it out now and then. There is a lot going on there as well…..
http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248
Jim
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April 15th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Eco #61
I just need to say that for a lot of Europeans their car is not just a simple means of trasportation either.
I respect your vision but It is not mine not the one of the majority of my fellow (good) citizens.
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April 15th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Future electric cars like the Volt could certainly get a LOT more efficient and powerful if this ultracapacitor technology by EEStor turns out to be “for real” and they can scale it up for mass production and it is proven safe, etc.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0416/p13s01-sten.html?page=1
I know EEStor and ZENN will have some ’splaining to do in 2009 if the new ZENN cars have a bunch of “technical difficulties”. They sure are promising a lot and nobody has seen anything yet.
Trust me, I hope EEStor really DOES have a monster breakthrough with their ultracapacitors. God knows the whole planet NEEDS a big breakthrough to help wean us off of burning fossil fuels. We’re oil, gas and coal addicts. We’re screwing up the planet and our fossil fuel habits are getting waay too expensive. Wars and economic upheaval could break out over our oil addiction. It’s getting bad.
Watch “The 11th Hour” movie if you’re not yet convinced.
http://wip.warnerbros.com/11thhour/
I hope in 2009, we’re all saying “WOW, this little ‘ol company from Texas called EEStor is going to be a global sensation and change everything … how can I get in on the IPO somehow?” Maybe they’ll be even bigger than that “little ‘ol band from Texas” …. ZZ Top. They say everything is big in Texas you know. EEStor could definitely help keep that tradition going. Let’s just hope EEStor isn’t “all hat and no cattle” like Perot used to say.
I guess we should “get our popcorn ready” like T.O. with the Dallas Cowboys says and wait and see what happens with EEStor in the next year or two. It sounds like EEStor might have some big news in the energy world coming pretty soon. That could explain why they’re being so secretive. Maybe they really are afraid some oil industry dudes down in Houston might try to stop them from bringing their products to market somehow.
If EEStor’s ultracapacitors are for real they could give a new meaning to the term “creative destruction” in the capitalist system. IC engines and gasoline would go the way of the horse and buggy fairly quick along with a bunch of other products. This could be a “holy grail” type breakthrough as big as room temperature superconductors. The whole energy energy would change.
Here’s what one of the VPs at EEStor said:
“EEStor’s technology has the opportunity to touch every aspect of daily life from very big to very small devices,” Mr. Weir writes. “We also see a whole new generation of products … based around our technology.”
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April 15th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Video of Mitsu’s new ImIEV “jellybean” all-electric driving 18 miles up a mountain road with a 5,800 foot vertical ascent and then recharging nearly 100% on the downhill run.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.tv/index_5tateyama.html
Looking forward to eventually driving a Volt up Pikes Peak and other great mountain roads.
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April 15th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Delay is not an option. If a technical issue does not exist, stay on course with the “frozen” design.
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April 15th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
I hope they make the volt whit everything they said in the ads less the 30k 640 mile range 40 miles no gas
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April 15th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
How about an option, then? Have a cheaper, less powerful Volt that uses energy more efficiently for a lower price and a more powerful Volt that will get you to the next red light faster than anybody else?
I can’t relate to all of you power/speed hungry drivers. I’ve been driving my Geo Metro for the last 18 years….that’s at 45 mpg. Never been in an accident (maybe, just maybe it’s because I CAN’T drive aggressively). Is my Metro fun? Well, no. But my Metro gets me to where the fun is just as well as any other sort of transportation. It’s the other idiots on the road that make it not fun to drive. I would buy a cheaper Volt if it meant I paid less. There’s finer things in life than a car that goes fast and I’d rather spend my money on that. A $30K Volt is out of my budget by about $10K…I’d gladly sacrifice ‘fun’ in my car in order to pay less for it.
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April 15th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
#20 “Maybe we should only shower once a week to conserve water too.”
How would showering more save water?
Step one is to blow away the glorified golf cart meme. Tesla helped. The Volt can finish it off if it is powerful enough.
Then widen the selection with the public’s perception already anchored in “EV equals exciting” EV-econoboxes, etc. Eventually.
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April 16th, 2008 at 1:06 am
Couldn’t we have the best of both worlds?
If the electric motor is the same size but the generator is smaller, wouldn’t all that happens is that it takes longer to charge the battery whilst the performance stays the same? This would mean that the battery is drained quicker.
All it would take is for the generator to kick in earlier (that is when the battery has discharged to say 80% rather than 60%) to keep the charge at an appropriate level of charge.
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April 16th, 2008 at 5:12 am
GM, I am still waiting for the call that my mule is ready for South Florida summer driving “real world” experience. The Florida Electric Auto Association has many events to promote EVs. The publicity would be world class in an area where the roll out is scheduled to be early. You cannot buy this kind of advertising. 239 410-8826 TED
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April 16th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Here comes the corporate spin, this time in the form of your friendly and so honest consumer reporting magazine.
This is only the tip of the iceberg!
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April 16th, 2008 at 9:22 am
# 118 Ted in Fort Myers
“GM, I am still waiting for the call that my mule….”
Don’t be surprised if you have to keep on waiting.
I think most people on this site, especially those who have frequently visited and posted here for the last year, as well as being some of the first on Lyle’s waiting list above, would tell you “Get in Line”!!
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April 16th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Interesting.
Does the Volt have to perform like a Camaro to be worth producing?
Let me put it this way…
If the Volt is going to perform like a Camaro, why NOT charge 50K for it?
If the Volt goes 0 to 60 in 7 seconds or less, and has all the bells and whistles that you get from a Grand Am, Mustang, Camaro, Dodge Charger, whatever, then I can’t see why GM would charge less than 30K, ever. It’s a performance vehicle…
Someday they might put that powertrain in something else.
But until they do…oh well.
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April 16th, 2008 at 10:30 am
I’m a 20 year old college student and im crazy about the volt and hybrids in general. 3.50 Gal gas is kicking my butt. 2010 Release date matches perfect with my graduation date.
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April 16th, 2008 at 10:35 am
I hope they remove that large muffler on the mule. It must weigh at least 20lb.
I wonder if the Volts ICE will exhaust out the rear requiring lengthy heavy exhaust pipe.
Is there a need for a heavy exhaust system for a 1.0 L engine with 3 or 4 cylinders.
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April 16th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Just about the only thing that will un-sell me on a Volt is if it’s a dog. I’m not interested in some hippy-mobile. So if you’re interested in “saving the planet”, what’s better: a hairshirt car that I’m going to ignore, or a reasonably-powerful Volt? On the other side of the coin, which is the best choice for making money?
Isn’t it wonderful when interests coincide?
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April 16th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Am I right seeing Volt cost figures like $48,000? There is no way the car is going to be successful if the cost is over $35,000 with limited production. It will need to come down to around $30,000 to be widely successful.
What do you think about the actual cost when released? What are you willing to pay? I can’t see paying much over $30,000. I just can’t see it at this time.
I know we all want this car, but we have got to think about recovering the initial higher cost as soon as possible. What is it worth to reduce our dependence on the Middle-East or elsewhere? I like the idea of buying a Volt (or some other non-gas using car) and sending our “friends” in sand land a message.
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April 16th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
N Riley #125:
This issue creates a real firestorm……..
You have the people that say – make it a no frills, no options electric Vega, and charge no more than $20K. It HAS to be less than a Prius!
You have people that say Lutz said ‘nicely under $30K, well equipped’, and expect him to live up to that, no matter what.
You have the people that want this to be supercar, and are willing to pay for that.
It is another issue of not being able to please everyone.
Many of us here think they should offer three different versions, to try to fit the most number of people. But GM is not yet saying what their plans are in this area.
If you are asking individually, what our max price would be, I can tell you that I would go up to $40K, but it has be top of the line luxury, with all the bells and whistles. Over that price, and it should have a Caddy badge on it, not a Chevy bow tie….
But that is just my opinion…..
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April 16th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
people enjoy power and speed….what is wrong with that if effeciency is not majorly impacted…….
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April 16th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
#126 Jim I
Well, That is a good honest opinion. I think you are right about GM offering multiple levels of “value” for different tiers of prices. That is not unlike normal automotive pricing today, but generally today the tiers carry different names/badges (Impala, Malibu, etc). I am sure they will offer a base car along with many options that will bring the price up quite a bit. Maybe we can purchase a base unit for around the $25-30,000 range and still have a “good” car that helps take money out of the oil producing countries’ hands.
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April 16th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Could someone remind me how well the VW microbus is selling?
If you really want people to drive smaller, more efficient cars, do what Europe has and tax the hell out of gas. Not only could this decrease our national debt, it would encourage us to be more energy conscious.
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April 16th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
A 10hp microgenerator is idiotic. The car couldn’t sustain 15mph up a long freeway grade.
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April 16th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
The guy didn’t even bother to research how the Volt is proposed to work. At no point in regular operation will the battery not be available to assist with high power loads. The generator is only supposed to be 53KW max and the battery will supply the transient loads beyond that when in generator mode. He also assumes that auxiliary heat loads will consume about 4KWh during 20 miles of commuting in severe cold and snow. That would be about 12KW for the auxiliary power. He’s only off by an order of magnitude.
He’s miscalculated and misinterpreted several details. It’s just another example of shoddy reporting that appears too often these days. It’s just very questionable that someone espousing efficiency and carbon footprint would take aim a car that is being designed to effectively get about 280mpg when using the average american driving pattern (33 mile commute, 12,500 total miles per year). You’ld think he could find more appealing targets.
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April 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
one thing is for sure: If they change any engine specs at all, no matter what it is I WILL NOT BUY THE CAR. I want a electric yet powerful car, and not a car with one horse that doesnt have enough power to run at 95mph or going from 0-60 in less than 10seconds. If the car turns out to be a crappy car, I’ll stick with my 4 cylinder minivan that has a top speed of at least 110, or I’ll buy a Plug in Prius.
So G.M. please dont cut the Volt’s balls!!!
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April 17th, 2008 at 7:06 am
No power, no volt for me.
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April 17th, 2008 at 8:59 am
GM can build his model in China.
The Volt scheme will probably grow more powerful over the years.
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April 17th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Hey, for those of you (like me) who are used to driving cars with a 0-60 in the 5’s or 6’s and are somewhat disappointed by the 8.5 of the Volt; it may not be that bad. For me, anyway, most of the time I’m not actually doing 0-60 runs. I’m looking to accelerate hard from 5 or 10mph (turning left from a stoplight onto a short onramp for example, or accelerating when somebody in oncoming street traffic makes a left turn through a red and tries to hit me in the side of the car. That kind of thing). I’d argue that unless you’re at the dragstrip (or really, really need to get in front of the other guy at the stoplight
perhaps more important than 0-60 is 5-60 or 10-70 or something like that. Car and Driver reports their “rolling start” numbers of 5-60. For example, something like the Mazdaspeed3 they coaxed a 0-60 of 5.8 but a “street start” 5-60 of 6.7, amost a whole second slower when the car was already moving. With the Volt, the acceleration should follow the same curve no matter at what speed on that curve you start. So, a 5-60 time should be FASTER by however long it takes to go from 0-5.
For example, C&D clocked the Prius 0-60 at 11.3 and the 5-60 street start at… whoops, 11.3. Well, it didn’t get any slower, anyway.
http://www.caranddriver.com/content/download/100711/1306461/version/1/file/CD02_PRIUS.pdf
I suppose the take home lesson is that with the electric motor’s huge low end torque 0-5 is nearly instantaneous.
Well, that’s cool.
Anyway, the point is comparing Volt’s acceleration to an ICE accleration isn’t exactly apples to apples and we’ll just have to wait and see how it drives. I tried to dig up some performance numbers on previous full electrics but couldn’t find anything equivalent to the C&D “street start” numbers.
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April 17th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I just wanted to second the motion from post 101. The three complaints most often heard concerning hybrids, not enough power, not enough rear seat room, and not enough truck. I will bet the Volt will fail 2 out of three.
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April 19th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Way Cool,
The Volt is Red!!!
Red HHR, Spring Edition
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April 24th, 2008 at 3:21 am
June 5th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
There is and will be a growing market for a lower powered electric car. It does not have to be the Volt. I’m 50, and am looking for a basic city car that is simple and economical. My need for speed is a lot less now and is satisfied with a Vette. I look forward to the development and advances that will deliver a high performing and highly desired Volt. Some time after that a more pedestrian car can be produced using same technologies.
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December 5th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Why not doing a Volt highway capable ?
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