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Production Volt Exterior Design and Appearance: When Will We See it All?

April 6th, 2008 | Posted in: Design, Timeline, Video

One of the top questions people ask is, "When will the final production Volt design be shown?"

I just toured GM’s Chevy Volt E-Flex Design studio. First let me be clear, GM is not showing anyone what the final production vehicle fully looks like yet.

I also spent considerable time talking to Bob Boniface, the director of Chevy Volt/ E-Flex design. I questioned him about the timing of appearance releases.

He explained to me that final car designs generally make their public appearance roughly two years before the car reaches production. He noted as an example that the Camaro design was actually revealed in December 2005, and will hit showrooms this fall. That’s a nearly 3 year interval which he felt was a too long. Bob says, "You want to time it so that the public and the media maintain their interest in the car, but you don’t want to show it too early because you don’t want to tip your hand to the competition."

Noting that the Volt is slated for production in 2 years and 7 months, he said "if you do the math, expect to see the car sooner rather than later"

He also said GM normally ties design releases to large public events. Some upcoming events to might be the media mule drives slated for July, or GM’s centennial celebration in the fall.

For those who have raised the concern here, Bob said "it can’t be a Cobalt with a battery..over my dead body."

About the design freeze, he said at this moment, "We’re tweaking some areas trying to get some last counts of drag out of it"…"we don’t have to start shipping data for feasibility just yet, so we’re going to keep working on it until the last minute, but if I showed you the car tomorrow, that’s what its going to look like."

In the design center Bob demonstrated the new front quarter panel, which we’ve seen before, but he also revealed a rear quarter panel. The rear has a harder edge than the show car.

What can be summarized about the production design compared to the show car is the following:

-it will look unmistakably like the Volt
-overall proportions have changed
-front end is much more rounded
-roof height has gone up
-low rear overhang stays
-dropped belt line is still there
-length is identical
-very sporty and athletic
-has a nice stance and rake

Bob said this about body color, "the car will be available in a lot of colors. Our color and trim studio has done lots of research on color and trim style. We have a board that shows a bunch of side views of the production car in different colors. In black it is wonderful. "

Regarding the show car’s transparent roof, "I wont comment on the appearance of the roof right now, there are still content decisions that have not yet been made."

I studied in person the 1/3 camouflage model seen in the picture above and I can say the theme is clearly futuristic and the car will make an electric statement and look like nothing else on the road.

Enjoy the high-def video below to see that same scene. And if you get a chance, check out my live interview Monday April 7th at 12:30 PM on the Fox Business News Network.

Production Chevy Volt Design from Lyle Dennis on Vimeo .

Posted by: Lyle

190 Responses to “Production Volt Exterior Design and Appearance: When Will We See it All?”

Shawn Ferrell Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 8:25 pm

One of the main concerns is the price. Can working middle class families afford this fantastic car?

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Tom Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

Too bad it won’t be a Cobalt with a battery. That might have made it affordable for me. Now I’m crossing my fingers for Toyota or Honda to come out with a nice serial hybrid.

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MarkinWI Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

Lyle, LOL great soundtrack! It feels like I’m 12 again, which is a good thing.

Shawn, I’m with you bro, but we’ve beat that horse to death already. I stopped in at Saturn a couple of weeks ago asking about the 2009 model year 2-mode hybrid VUE for my wife (her Xterra is killing me, but I’m probably going to hold out for the plug-in version). The rep was very up-front. Pricing is decided when they get closer to release date, and is sensitive to what the competition is charging. He had no price info for the VUE 2-mode, which is due out in less than six months. Let’s keep our fingers crossed, but I would not waste any thought on it until at least Christmas.

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nasaman Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Superb video, Lyle! The front view is VERY interesting because it clearly shows the hood’s front edge is a clean, distinctive semi-circular shape. I’ll order mine in “Boniface Black” (is that like the Corporate Limo’s in NYC ….so-called “triple black”)?!?

If you haven’t already, I’d suggest putting it on You Tube to promote this site as well as, obviously, the Volt itself. Hardly anyone I mention the “Chevy Volt” to has even heard of it!

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NZDavid Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

“GM’s centennial celebration in the fall.”

This would be my pick for release of such a ground breaking technology.
Great work Lyle. BTW have GM confirmed your drive in the mule yet?

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NZDavid Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

On looking closely at it again, I like it more than the original.

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Paul-R Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

Tom #2,

If Honda/Toyota decide to make a Volt or something equivalent, why would you expect it to cost less than the Volt? Honda and Toyota vehicles tend to cost about the same as their GM equivalents.

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nasaman Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

PS: I’ll venture a WAG that the final design will incorporate two features shown on the Caddy Provoq concept earlier this year…..

1) Actuator-controlled louvers behind the grill to improve range; these would be partially or fully closed at higher road speeds (to the extent underhood temperatures allow)

2) Tough clear polycarbonate or acrylic discs located immediately each wheel’s inside rim a) primarily to reduce turbulence/drag, and b) to block brake dust build-up on the wheels

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kent beuchert Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

After hearing the ZENN Motor CEO announce to his shareholders
that his company and EESTor will begin converting existing gas powered cars into electrics as soon as the EESTor devices start coming off the assembly line THIS YEAR, I have to assume the VOLT people are making contingency plans, because if these devices are what they have been claimed to be, the VOLT immediately becomes obsolete and would need to be converted to a battery-only EV. That shouldn’t be very hard – mostly everything gets a whole lot simpler. I’m betting a friend that the EEStor devices will work as claimed and that the current Volt design will never go on sale. At least that’s my guess. Won’t have long to wait.

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Trauncher Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

ZENN? you mean the golf cart with an ugly paper thin body that only goes 25 MPH? in what universe does that “make the VOLT obsolete”????????

Do Tell!

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Hous Volt Pharteen Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

Wow…I can’t wait, it is like being in the delivery room waiting for your baby to be born. It is that big to me. Wow!

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Jake Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

Zenn is supposedly going to produce an ultracapacitor-powered car that is capable of normal highway speeds in…2009 I think. I will believe it when I see it, but it’s a cool idea nonetheless. If it is produced, that means ultracapacitor technology is ready for the mainstream (at least mostly), and it could greatly benefit all similar vehicles like the Volt.

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omegaman66 Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

kent beuchert the volt will come online as is even if EEStore isn’t pulling a scam. I share your enthusiasm for the promise and have been waiting since they announced this a year or so ago. I read some very discouraging comments about their technology that was beyond my knowledge level. There was talk about the voltage they were claiming the numbers for would not convert to very good numbers at the 350 volt range etc etc. I sure hope they pull this off.

But back to the reason I think the volt will come out either way.

The volts design is superior to the prius. But most of the cars coming out in 2009 will be hybrids and serial hybrids even though the design is not as good. Why because it will take time to bring manufacturing online. So even though if all things pan out for EEStore and even though the Volts energy supply will already be obsolute it will still come to market and be upgraded in the future.

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Trauncher Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

What someone says in their patent application and reality are commonly miles apart. as for “cars rolling off the asembly line this year”… the company states that their next milestone is “permittivity testing” with no date announced… and is adding delays. So far, its a great Stock Hype play, but absolutely no one has demonstrated anything viable. just chalk talks…

I for one am buying on the rumor and selling on the news.

it would be great if it worked… we could all run out and install 480 three phase AC power in our homes to charge the car in 5 min. at a cost of more that the cost of the car… but if by some chance it works, I for one would love to see a 50% improvement over LION bats. (Which is what EEstor claims to be).

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Arch Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

You know what I am sick and tired of this whole game. GM is playing
with us. We want a fine car and they want to see how much we will pay. I helped design this car but I will not be part of this game.

Take Care
Arch

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Jim I Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:49 pm

I am glad it will not be an electric Colbalt! I like what I could make out of the interior for the prior posts.

I also think that the 100 year celebration planned for mid September would be a great time to show off the “final release” version of the Volt, and announce the change of status from pre-production to production status!!!!

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Rouser Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

“Noting that the Volt is slated for production in 2 years and 7 months…”

I thought it was going to be sooner.

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john1701a Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

>> The volts design is superior to the prius.

If you want to play that game, think about how many EV supporters are going to point out the unnecessary complexities of Volt.

The measure of superiority has been quantity, whether you like it or not. Low volume production makes for a great trophy, but it doesn’t sustain the business.

Accept that reality that non-hybrid vehicles are the competition. They grossly out-number the hybrids.

We need designs that will be purchased in very large numbers.

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Mark Bartosik Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

I think that that 1/3 model from what I can see is more appealing than the concept.

EEStor: even if they pull it off, it still comes down to a lot of factors like price, availability, working voltage. Not all the of Volt’s cost is batteries. Let’s say that EEStor costs arbitrarily $3000 vs $10000 for LI battery. Well the Volt may cost $7000 more than what you could eventually buy a EEStor based equivalent car for. But what production volume will EEStor cars be in 2010/2011? I doubt they’ll be in Volt numbers. So you’ll have a choice pay for Volt in 2010/11 or wait and maybe get sometime cheaper later.

It is the same with solar power. There’s lots of cool stuff happening with solar power, e.g. Nanosolar. But did I wait for that?

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Jim I Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

Arch #14:

Of course GM is playing with us. It is to be expected!

They talk about selling at a loss for a few years, but how is the accounting to be done? If they dump all the E-REV development costs into the Gen-1 Volt, they could sell it at $75K+ and still show it as a loss on paper. Accounting is like statistics. You can make the numbers say whatever you want.

Until we actually see a sticker price on he window of a Volt in a local Chevy dealership, ignore everything you read or hear about price…

But in the end, I think that GM will price the vehicle with levels of options that will make most of us ready to sign the 79 forms when you buy a new car!

Now initial availability is a whole different discussion that can keep us going for a few more months!!!!

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Tagamet Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

As always, Lyle, THANKS.
I’ll TIVO you on FoxBIZ tomorrow.
Keep up the great work.
BTW, I have TWO Volt magnets on the back of my Jeep (lol)
God Bless
PS @Kent – I’ll take a large part of that bet.

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Jim I Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

Here is my only problem with ZENN and EESTOR:

This is from the press release announcing the ZENN for 2009:

“ZENN chief executive Ian Clifford said EEStor’s storage technology is in “advanced stages of commercialization” and that commercial product will first be shipped to ZENN in 2008. Though the company said it has not yet tested the technology in a vehicle application yet. The company also plans new 2009 versions of its low-speed ZENN, including a four-passenger car and a utility vehicle.”

So if the technology is not really available for commercial use, and has not been tested for a vehicle application yet, how can they be ready to have them for sale next year???

I have no problem being an early adopter of new technologies, but I would like to see the results of some extensive testing first, don’t you think??

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Mike D Says:
April 6th, 2008 at 11:46 pm

” -very sporty and athletic
-has a nice stance and rake

In black it is wonderful. ”

Hearing these descriptions makes me giddy as a school boy

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Grizzly Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:10 am

Kent # 9

I wouldn’t hold my breath. What makes you think that Eestor is going to give their “best” to tiny lil’ Zenn and not the General or Toyota? Do yo think it’s because they have a soft spot for an econo-box maker over potential billions of $$ in revenue?

Between the two (Zenn and Eestor) I see some major grandstanding bent on attracting attention and VC, nothing more.

Demonstrate the product ( which Eestor hasn’t done yet even for Lockheed Martin) or shut up.

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:20 am

PaulR, #7:

I would expect Honda and Toyota serial hybrids to be cheaper because they seem to have more business sense than GM.

If the Volt is priced over $30k, that’s in direct competition with entry-level luxury vehicles. A BMW or Lexus is going to give you a better ride, better handling, faster acceleration, more comfort, higher-quality interior, AND they are status symbols, the importance of which should not be underestimated. The Volt will be a $35k CHEVY. To most consumers, who do not have the appreciation for engineering we do, the only advantages IT offers are smaller charges at the pump and some greenie points.

GM is pricing the Volt into a completely inappropriate market segment and seems too stupid to realize it.

Honda or Toyota would change the battery to 8 kWh before selling a car like this for over $30k. I know a 20-mile all-electric range is completely “unacceptable” to most people on this board… I guess they will be forced to buy plug-in Priuses which will have 7-mile all-electric ranges… unless you step on the accelerator more than halfway… or drive over 60 MPH…

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Bill Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:31 am

As far as an EEStor breakthrough is concerned –

I still believe that most Americans would have “range anxiety” with an battery-only vehicle (BEV), regardless of any foreseeable range. If some miracle of electricity storage appears, let’s use a small implementation of this new technology to reduce the incremental cost of an E-REV, while maintaining the security of unlimited range, given additional liquid fueling. Very few people want to commit to never using a car for traveling, and charging 8Kwh in 10 minutes means that each “pump” would require 48Kw, so a 24 pump “gas station” would require almost 1.2 megawatts. We are a very long way from being able to do this.

The whole concept of electrifying transportation is going to be a big challenge. For mainstream, non-urban-only vehicles, let’s do the first few decades in “compatability mode” – where even if I get lost or have to stay somewhere where I can’t plug in, I can still keep putting liquid fuel in my car and keep going. Otherwise the high levels of customer acceptance necessary to make huge reductions in oil consumption will be much more unlikely.

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Grizzly Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:32 am

Tom #24

Yes of course. The first 10,000 Volts are going to be overpriced and just like all the luxurious SUVs GM is criticized for selling over the years they’re going to have to threaten people to buy these at gunpoint.

Seems to me there should be a lot more lawsuits against GM for their sales techniques…..don’t you?

You’re right, maybe GM should realize they’re not the company to bring this product to market and abort the project in hopes that Toyota and Honda will be more responsible.

Why do I feel like I’ve just fed a troll????

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john1701a Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:39 am

The “all-electric range” really doesn’t hold much importance to the non-enthusiasts. Typical consumers can better relate (in other words, justify the upgrade cost) for the MPG BOOST that augmentation to existing hybrids offer.

In other words, a “7-mile” reference really doesn’t mean much. It’s an additional improvement of 10 MPG that will people will be buying.

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Gary P Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:41 am

BMW and Lexus as status symbols? Yes, but the Toyota Prius is seen as a status symbol in a different light. As in: “I’m a responsible human being who doesn’t believe in wasting energy.” Toyota now has a “green halo” thanks to the Prius. GM wants one as well with the Volt.

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greg Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:50 am

Someone here was talking about Lexus and BMW. I have seen these cars and have not been the lease bit impressed.

Lexus has Styrofoam bumpers and the cheapest sheet metal out of any car I have seen with the most expenive price I have ever seen.

Compair to a Cadillac CTS the Cadillac is a much more solid car that seems a lot safer to me.

The Prius for example is the most Tinfoil car that could be taken out with a shopping cart.

I have a 2 friends with Toyota cars and they have both been in minor acidents with the other car not even showing any damage. However the toyota cars Crumple under any sourt of a hit and require over $8k in work.

My point is cheap metal costs you more in the end because of the expenive body work.

So I would never purchase a Lexus.

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Bill Cooley Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 1:04 am

The Volt is going to sell for somewhere around
$30,000 dollars. That will put it out of reach of many.
Can’t we just have a plug in without all the bells and
whistles?

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 1:53 am

#26 Grizzly:

You’re right, GM can do what they want. Nobody is stopping them. They’re not forcing anybody to buy a Volt at gunpoint, but the way they’re pricing it, maybe they should. You may laugh at the idea that Honda and Toyota are better at the car business than GM, but last I checked, GM is swirling the drain while Toyota is happy and profitable and just overtook them in terms of vehicles sold.

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MLRTYME Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 1:56 am

-very sporty and athletic
-has a nice stance and rake

I feel this is great information to know. I have been opposed to purchasing a car that does not reflect my desire to I drive a car that I feel attracts attention for the right reasons! The views of a sporty concept increased what I am willing to pay, so knowing they’re keeping “sporty” looks will help me justify this amount.

-higher roof line…

Since I don’t fit in many smaller vehicles produced currently (my head usually rubs the headliner…drives me NUTS!) I’m encouraged to learn this.

As for the cost issue…that is a completely mute conversation for us to volley back and forth on. The bottom line is that Chevy will sell the car for the pricetag that they feel the car is worth. We, as the consumer, will dictate whether we feel that this car is worth the amount they are charging. If the rollout is limited, do you really think that the individuals who would be willing to pay $50K for this car would suddenly NOT buy the car because it is priced at $30K to make sure that so those less affluent individuals can have one? I see this as being no different than any other purchase I make. I run the numbers, and determine what the ROI is, and then set my limit on what I’m willing to spend. If the Volt is within this range, I’ll buy one! If not, I won’t.

We’ve already created a poll on this website dedicated to determining metrics based on % of individuals vs. the price they’re willing to spend. If GM really wants this information…I’m sure Lyle would be happy to direct them in that direction. I have the amount I’m willing to spend sitting in my ING account, waiting for the release. If they don’t meet this number, then I look elsewhere (regretfully).

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Joseph M. Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:38 am

I’m buying the Aptera Plug-In Hybrid. It gets 300 miles per gallon. I’m going for Miles per gallon. I also like futuristic looking design and interior. The aptera achieves that. the volt is at least a step in the right direction. It’s funny, Toyota is moving forward and GM killing the EV1 was moving backwards. Maybe now GM is once again moving forward with it’s Volt. Who Knows? lol.

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Ken Newman Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:48 am

I hope GM will produce the Volt at a competitive price with reliability. Being a Prius owner (waiting for the Volt) I am offended by the statement that the Volt is a superior design–until the Volt is in the showroom, the Volt is “vaporware”.

Having purchased two Pontiac Fieros before and having relatives that bought two Vegas, a Buick Diesel (not to mention two Corvairs), I am reminded of GM’s prior numerous mistakes. I am not aware of any Toyota or Honda cars/issues that have reached the low level of quality/reliability GM obtained in the past. Bottom line: GM needs a “winner”.

A recent engineer who is converting his Porsche 914 to an all electric sportscar, stated to me that he thinks GM’s fear in developing electric vehicles is that there would be dealer push-back since there is minimal manpower available to service these (Electric) cars at the dealer level and the necessary costly training that would be required to get knowledgeable servicemen/women.

I (again) am putting my money where my mouth is, in the hope that the Volt I want to buy will be affordable, reliable and actually built!

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Paul Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:05 am

The smoke test car shape looks boring. Every car goes thru Aerodymaic tests – and guess what? There will be no breakthru in shape technology. The concept car though “looks” absoutely beautiful. Do a windtunnel test on that and tweak it. I’ll bet you’ll find out that your drag coefficient can be within 5% of the “smoke test car”. Are you working on the “K” class chassis? If you cant make a car that makes a bold statement then someone else will. PS – GM has done wonders with the Cadallic brand.

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Rockyroad Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:42 am

When some say “GM is playing with us”
Don’t confuse stupity with intent.

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jdeere46 Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:18 am

I don’t care what it looks like.. I just want a car I don’t have to put gas in –NOW!!!

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Joe Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:27 am

Well, once again I would like to see a real EV here not a plug in hybrid. Lets see EV what does that mean.. Electric Vehicle…Ah yes a real fully electric vehicle with no gas engine added. I want to be free of the oil companies. Don’t you ?

Oh by the way GM you can produce one if you really want to. Maybe its time to do the right thing. Where do you think that piece of ice that broke off on March 26th, 2008 at the south pole will be going ? Maybe melting ! yeap looks like it. CARB board you all need to look at your voting. Oh maybe its about money huh?

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RB Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:29 am

Lyle’s report said: For those who have raised the concern here, Bob said “it can’t be a Cobalt with a battery..over my dead body.” As one person who has had that concern, I’m delighted to hear this response. I’m looking forward to seeing a Volt that’s attractive, maybe even exciting, and hope Bob can bring that to us. The future of the Volt may depend on its styling more than any GM car in GM’s long history, and the future of GM may depend on the Volt.

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OzoneLevel Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:34 am

To all those getting their panties in a bunch over the price of the Volt: who cares what you think! If you don’t want to pay the price, don’t buy it and go drive a Prius! And for pete’s sakes, stop going on about justifying your purchase by running ROI analyses! There’s no ROI on any car! it’s all negative. Buy a car and whatever options because you want to; there is no economic benefit to an expensive stereo, navigation system, or battery power. We’re not interested in your endless whining about cost, we like the technology and we’ll buy it at any price. For you other cheapskates trying to justify a purchase by how many cents you’ll save per mile, wait for the battery econoboxes from China.

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Jim I Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:38 am

john1701a #17:

“We need designs that will be purchased in very large numbers.”

There is no argument with that point. But you seem to think that there should be unlimited amounts of vehicles available at low end scale pricing on the first day of initial rollout.

GM has said there will be 10K units for the first year. Why would they say that?

1. They want the car to fail – that seems rather silly at this point, don’t you think?
2. They want this first year to shake out the bugs of a new design – that makes some reasonable sense. The Prius was already available in Japan for three years before they shipped unit #1 to the USA.
3. Maybe the battery manufacturers have told them that this is all that they will be able to have ready in that timeframe – Also a reasonable possibility

Since everyone here seems to think that GM is “betting the farm” on the E-REV design, I think it makes complete sense to introduce the Gen-1 Volt as a bold statement. If, as we expect, the car over performs, the real change to GM will be in the following two or three years. Then they can introduce different models across all divisions, and all price ranges. I think that by 2015, the farm will be doing quite well!

My personal opinion is that the initial 10K units will all be sold or have deposits placed for orders within thirty days of the release…

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pdt Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:50 am

#25 Bill

I agree.

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mmcc Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:54 am

I’ve got the DVR set for Lyle’s interview. With this national exposure we should go over 20k on the waiting list this week.

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Storm Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 7:08 am

A Cobalt with a battery is just what they should have produced. It would be on sale now. GM would have a chance for their techs to learn the simple technology. GM would see that there really is a market. They could find out what people like or don’t like about EVs. They would be making $ not spending them.

You’d have thought that GM would have learned from their SUV experience.(Maximize profits by minimizing development costs.)

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Statik Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 7:30 am

I have nothing bad to say about this thread.

/just saying

(=

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Zap Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 7:33 am

Waiting nearly another 3 years could be a problem. I wanted this car the moment I saw it. It is/was the first vehicle to catch my eye – and interest – in the last 8 years. Buying the Volt was #1 on my list but now I see as a competitor the German produced “Loremo”. At 100+ mpg and slated for intro in 2010 – batteries included, my interest could be swayed over the next 2 years.

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Paul Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 7:37 am

#46
Yep 3 more years is a bit much.

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Ron Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 7:50 am

Looks like the aggressive stance, with the front wheels pushed out to the corners, with a minimum overhang, has been toned down from the concept. Profile seems to be close…

Price? The rumors haven’t scared me away. GM should up the warrantee to “bumper to bumper” for the 100,000 miles. That would silence the critics!

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Al Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:10 am

Tesla defined a product (electric only sports car), executed it well, and is now in production. Think defined a car (electric only commuter), and seems to be well on its way (multinationally) to success. GM defined a product that they are having trouble executing (a “do everything” serial electric). Hauling a 1300 lb generator around in case you need to use it along with a supply of whatever fuel it ends up being just does not make a lot of sense. Half of the commentors here seem to need an electric only commuter car, and the other half seem to just need anything GM. Diesel electric makes sense for trains that need high startup torque, or (Battery only) Tesla for rocket-like off the line startups. Battery power makes great sense for commuter cars like Think. Aptera has the right car for the application (extremely low aerodynamic coefficient and weight) for a generator driven range extender. Their price point/weight bears this out. How can GM miss the mark yet again?
My thinking is car # 1) commuter electric, and car 2) older road car for regional/long distance drive. As time goes on 2) gets replaced by another electric only commuter supplemented by a very occasional rental for ranges outside improved electric only range.
Big heavy cars in the land of scarce expensive oil really do not make sense. New York city folks must LOL every time they read this site – most do not even own cars!

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Jason The Saj Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:13 am

A REEVer is just what I want…as an all electric vehicle is not likely to provide the distance I need while traveling for quite a while.

Sure when you can give me an all electric vehicle with a 300-600 mile range…and a 10 minute re-charge – I’m game. But until then, the REEVer model is far more intelligent and practical.

I am concerned the “new design” will lose that sophisticated, sleek, wide & low look of the prototype and look more akin to a Chevy Cobalt – bah. I don’t like high roofed looking vehicles.

And please…stop with the killed the EV-1. Honda & Toyota killed the EV-1 by pressuring California to drop the 0% emissions requirement.

As for GM quality versus Honda/Toyota. All my GMs have exceeded 145,000 mile lives. Many of these were abused vehicles. While I have my first Toyota (2002 Prius w/ 94,000 miles) and do not know it’s life. I’ve owned two Hondas. The longest lived died at 115,000 miles. And I do constant maintenance.

So I actually question Honda “reliability”. Toyota…reliability I have yet to discover. I truly hope it is good – now that I own one. That said, Toyota “layout, design, interface” is poor. I think Toyota and Honda get a lot of high ratings for their interfaces simply because they’re Toyota/Honda.

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BillR Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:19 am

Lyle,

Great video! Thanks for sharing.

Now, since its Monday morning and I’m in a cantakerous mood, I’ll respond to some of the more inspiring comments:

# 24 Tom

“I would expect Honda and Toyota serial hybrids to be cheaper because they seem to have more business sense than GM.”

Write a book and call it “Great Expectations”. By the way, when are their E-REV vehicles coming to market?

# 34 Ken Newman

“Being a Prius owner (waiting for the Volt) I am offended by the statement that the Volt is a superior design …”

The truth hurts, don’t it.

#38 Joe

“Well, once again I would like to see a real EV here not a plug in hybrid. Lets see EV what does that mean.. Electric Vehicle…Ah yes a real fully electric vehicle with no gas engine added. I want to be free of the oil companies. Don’t you ?”

First, see #25 Bill, last paragraph. If you want an EV, go buy one. Tesla has one for about $100K. There are others as well.

I think most members here want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. However, we don’t think the jump from conventional vehicles to BEV can happen overnight, and the Volt is a no-compromise solution.

If you want to be free of the oil companies, stop whining and do it! Get a bicycle, take mass transit, walk, boycott airlines, restructure your life! You can do it!

For me, I’ll take the more gradual route and be happy to reduce my gasoline consumption by 80% annually with the Volt, and wait for more proven BEV technology and infrastructure before making the same lifestyle changes that you need to make.

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Richard Poor Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:43 am

The elevated rear deck in conjunction with a relatively small window impairs visibility and saftey. This makes reliance upon the rear view mirrors even more critical. Therefore, the rear view mirrors are too small. I have driven existing, Toyotas with such mirrors and find them frustratingly limited and dangerous. Please, don’t do the typical GM, overboard on the styling, sacrifice function mentality. If you are aiming at young families with kids, you have really screwed up. The rear of the car makes it the “back over the kid’s tricycle you never saw” type of car or worse!

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lester hupke Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:05 am

took 4years to make the atom bomb. so hire good men.

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ksuhwail Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:08 am

^^^#51

Spot on…

#50

“So I actually question Honda “reliability”. Toyota…reliability I have yet to discover. I truly hope it is good – now that I own one. That said, Toyota “layout, design, interface” is poor. I think Toyota and Honda get a lot of high ratings for their interfaces simply because they’re Toyota/Honda.”

God I love that line, now if only we can get that published in Motor Trend!

And for those of you who mention Lexus in the same breath as BMW…

I guess I have been living under a rock since Lexus is a Buick competitor and is definitely no luxury maker or status symbol. Except for the 460 they are no better than Lincoln. They are not BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Cadillac….sorry. And are only status symbols for the geriatric floor at the local hospital.

On the topic at hand, Thanks for such a clear video and the car is gonna be a looker. The GM folks sure seem to like dropping hints!

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Tagamet Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:25 am

Dear Statik,
You made my week (even in jest).
Thank you,
Tagamet

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Paul Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:26 am

Did I miss something? The video could be of any car made by any manufacture produced at any time. The picture of the ‘concept volt’ is truly exciting. The video does nothing for me, looks like a High School Science project more than anything else. From a technology standpoint the ‘Volt’ powertrain is truly remarkable.

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Arch Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:26 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120733236876290335.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Take Care
Arch

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Ray O. Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:34 am

Late 2010 or Mid 2011…. I will be looking foreward to picking up my VOLT at my favorite Chevy Dealership….
….at wherever they are going to charge for it…

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Arch Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:37 am

Volt taking a few hits.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/08/tv-ad-for-chevy-volt-environmentalists-let-dogs-lick-you-inste/

Take Care
Arch

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Jim Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:42 am

If it is expensive and unreliable, like the rest of GM’s products, it will have its 15 minutes of fame.

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Joseph Hastie, MD Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:56 am

I am so hunger for this car that I would write a check today, just knowing what little I do about it.

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Dr. Ross Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:59 am

I am going to be 50 this year and grew up in the age of muscle cars and consuming mass amounts of fuel. We now live in a Geodesic Dome, have windmills and solar water heaters. I have been buying Mercedes Diesels because of the efficiency and longevity. I am holding off buying a new car because I am done funding the oil industry. (It seems there is more pollution generated in the production of a car than in the operation of the first owner). Yes this is a green car but it will likely be a long lasting car that will exceed my performance desires. Congratulations to you all for promoting something that will be good for safe travel, economy and environment.

Tony

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Steve Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:00 am

I am an Electric Car kind of person … just waiting for the right one.
Not knowing anything else, At first I wanted a Tesla … and dug into my retirement savings and put a deposit down. I also got a License plate “Tesla” to be ready for it. That plate is currently on my 96 Geo! I get a few strange looks…. but not many. That was before news of the other electrics came out. Now we have more on the horizon … and Tesla is late with trannie problems and I got worried about them failing … and worried about losing my deposit. Their financial strength is only one rich man. If he had no ability to get carry the company with further delays, it would go under and the big deposit would be lost. I am not able to take that hit.
Then I learned about a few others including the Zapp X and the Aptera and the Volt. I have always considered myself a Chevy man … having had a bunch of them over my life… a 65 Biscayne, a 72 Biscayne, 6 Vettes, and 2 Geo Metros … so I have wavered between economy and style/power. Now, the Aptera is really neat. and the Volt seems that it will be well tested and ready when it comes. So I have deposits on the Aptera and license plates reserved for both the Aptera and Volt (with those names simple stated …). I am not sure what to do with the TESLA plate …
but it would look nice on the garage wall, I guess. If ti really is delivered to real customers, it will be a nice sports car. But I can use the ability to put a bike rack on …. and the Tesla does not accomidate that. I hope the VOLT will, with a receiver hitch capability. “Green” people do have bikes!
Steve

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John Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:02 am

I just don’t get it. Nice looking vehicle and all.. BUT, why don’t you develop a bullet proof 3 or 4 cylinder turbo diesel with 125hp that runs on bio-fuel and cut the weight out with all this electric_crap.

If you built a car that looked this good and if it got 50mpg (possible today) you’d sell millions of them. I’m certain with all the brains-cells at GM you could even tweak that to 55mpg make 65mpg a goal.

SO, why not? AMP’s got your tongue?

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noel park Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:28 am

In the words of the late, great, Jim Healy:

Comment……………………………………..no comment.

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Michael Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:32 am

The VOLT is a nice thought. I would love to have a car that doesnt have to depend on gasoline. I work 15 miles from home. The problem is that where I live and work is bitter cold in the winter and sweaty hot and humid in the summer. From everything I have read about the battery range and with all the bells and whistles GM is going to put in this car, I will probably run out of electric before I hit the highway. I dont need an LCD screen for a dashboard. I dont need the stereo system GM is going to install. Plus the cost keeps going up…

As I predicted a while ago, the “under $30k” VOLT, which is now up to $35K, will be close to $40k when it arrives. It will definately be $40k if you get any extras in/on the car.

Lyle, GM, thanks for the effort. Sorry I dont make enough money to afford it. I still encourage you to lead the charge in getting away from gasoline guzzlers.

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BillR Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:39 am

# 59 Jim

You mean like the Corvette?

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Lugh Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:46 am

As far as I remember when I look at automotive history, technological advances have been made from the top down. Automatic transmissions, disc brakes, V-engines, fuel injection and the like were all available on either luxury cars or on high performance sports cars. Also, some emergent technology has been developed from the bottom up. Mainly since the cost of prototypes are lower. Look at the current wave of ebikes and e-scooters being produced. Also look at the Aptera which is in essence a space age econobox. No offense. I think the car is beautiful. Eventually the new technogy makes it to the mid-priced product. Now,what everyone here should consider is while GM is trying to figure out what to do. Fisker is going to beat them to the market with the Karma, which is a sports sedan at $80K. I bet they have a waiting long list to buy one, too.

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BillR Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 11:00 am

#62 John

With electricity to power the Volt, your energy comes from coal, nuclear, natural gas, wind, hydro, solar, biomass, and other sources. Also, studies have shown that harmful emissions (NOx, CO, HC) are lower by this method as power plant emissions are better controlled at the plant than by emission controls on each individual automobile engine.

So, using electricity provides more energy diversity and lowers harmful emissions.

You have demonstrated your energy naivete by thinking the entire nation can switch to bio-fuels. Although I do not discourage their use and development, there is not enough biomass in this country to completely meet all of our energy needs. See one of my previous posts to get a feel for how much energy we use in the US every day.

See “US CO2 Emissions”

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143&page=2

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Tim Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 11:16 am

When I went to the Chevy Cobalt page & turned the Cobalt in the same direction, there were a lot of similarities with the camoflaged volt…. Then again, it could just be me…

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chad Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 11:41 am

Looks like they shortened the hood. Hope they don’t homogenize it too much!

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David L G Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

It is hard to tell for sure with the camo, but I thing the thing that I miss the most in the production version is the line that carries through from the hood to the windows, to the rear hatch/spoiler.

I think that is one of the best design elements of the concept and I don’t think it made it from what I can see. It isn’t a Prius, but you’ve gotta admit that it is certainly more Prius like…

Lugh @ 66, I don’t think GM is worried about Fisker with their $80k offering – Tesla is already in that niche

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Statik Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

# 55

I’m here for you tag!

Everyone needs a day off now and then.

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RB Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

#59 Jim
My latest GM product is now at 140K miles. It was competitively priced. It has been, and remains extremely reliable. It also is comfortable, good looking, and, when needed, fast.

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doggydogworld Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

#27 John1701a,

I think EV range may actually replace MPG in people’s minds. Consumers want to know two things:

1. Can I cover my daily commute/errands on ZERO gas?
2. What MPG do I get on long trips?

and will care most about #1. An EREV sticker which says 40 mile EV/50 mpg extended range is simple and answers both questions. If you have a long commute you look for a 50 or 60 mile EV range, if you have a short commute maybe you save some money with an EREV-20 or -30.

MPG is relevant to hybrids, but loses meaning once you plug in. These 100-150 mpg claims are not technically accurate and depend entirely on factors such as how much you drive. You think people complained when their 60/51 mpg-rated Prius delivered 45 mpg? Just wait until folks who drive 10 miles each weekday and 250 miles on weekends average 50 mpg from their “150 mpg” blended mode PHEV. Yikes. You could use MPGe to properly factor in electrical energy, but that’s complex and doesn’t address question #1.

In fact, most blended mode designs can’t really answer question #1. Rest assured GM will make this a big marketing issue. Blended mode may counter with lower cost due to downsized motor/generators and power electronics. It will be interesting to watch.

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TOM M Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Do we have time for a young man of 72 ? Well, here goes my two cents worth.

I had the miss fortune of tapping the rear end of a Prius with my 07 Ford Ranger. Not a scratch on my Ford, the Prius looked like it was rear ended by a freight train.

I had the experience of driving an electric car for quite some time and really enjoyed it. I drove it every day to work and pluged in at the office for my return trip home. I will say that having a range extender makes sence because I was not a happy camper when stranded with no juice.

What are we all excited about with regard to price?
Right now anything that is in the market place (or soon will be) is
priced $50K and up. Mostly up. This includes the conversions that are available I am sure that GM has it’s goals and knows where this Volt fits within these market goals. It doesn’t make much sence to produce a product that no one can afford. This is GM’s shot at gaining marget share and they are trying to get it right the first time because I don’t think they will have the opportunity for a second try.
Let’s all set back, take a deep breath and see what develops.
God Bless America.

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Lugh Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Just to clarify on David LG 70. Yes, the Fisker Karma is in the same $80k class as the Tesla Roadster but the Karma is Plug-in Hybrid same as the Volt. It will be much more easy to market than the Tesla since it will have the range extender engine. My guess is once Fisker catches the eye of people with the high end Karma they will put out a tamer addition to their line (just as all the other auto makers do). It makes good marketing sense to have a high end, mid, and economy edition on the same platform. Take the Camaro. Even the person driving the six banger Camaro can feel he is driving the same car as a Z28. That being said GM may want to do the same thing with the Volt. Put out an ultra sporty car then tame it down to a more affordable offering.

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Assuming people will only care about a contrived MPG number for these cars is completely wrong. The reason people care about MPG right now is because (virtually) ALL CARS SOLD RIGHT NOW RUN ON GAS so what else should they care about?

P.S. To the guy who brought up the issue of a 1300 lb generator, I thought we covered this in the last thread but the Volt will not have an industrial diesel marine generator. Give it a rest. It will have a generator that weighs like 200 lbs. Is that REALLY too much extra weight for you, in a 3000 lb car?

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Jim I Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

John #62:

Maybe you have missed the initial idea of the Volt…..

If you have a daily commute of less than 40 miles, or less than 80 miles if you can re-charge at work, you will use NO gasoline at all!

But if you need to take a longer trip, you have the capability of traveling up to 640 miles on only 12 gallons of gasoline, so you do not have to have a “city” car and a “travel” car.

This is not about saving money or just getting a higher mpg. It is about reducing the amount of oil that has to be imported into this country. And there are many reasons why that is important. Each of us has their own opinions on this.

GM and the US Govt’s research shows that a high percentage (I can’t remember the exact number right now) of the daily commutes are less than 40 miles. So your consumption of gasoline could in theory be ZERO! For my driving requirments, my gasoline consumption would go from just under 50 gallons per month to about 5. That is a 90% reduction!!!!

If people are just going to look at dollars, then go buy a base price Kio Rio for $11.5K and get 33 mpg. You will be way ahead……

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nasaman Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

Lyle…. slightly off topic, but your outstanding live interview today on Fox Business News was the best 4-5 minute pitch I’ve ever seen on network TV for the Volt!!!

GM…. get Dr. Dennis to sign a waiver allowing use of portions of today’s interview in TV/radio spots for the Volt —and make sure 1) he’s one of the first to drive a Mule this July (or ASAP), that 2) he’s one of the first to drive a Volt protoype next year, and that 3) he’s one of the first production Volt recipients (he’ll need to replace that aging, gas-guzzling Mercedes E350)!

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nasaman Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

PS: Dr. Dennis will be able to do LOTS more for the Chevy Volt than my neighbor Tiger Woods has done for Buick!!!

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Schmeltz Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

I was unable to see the video interview done by Fox Business News today. Can anyone provie a link to a video clip of it please? Thank you.

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Tagamet Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Great job on FBN today, Lyle! I got a picture of Degan at the Voltnation get together.

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N Riley Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Look, we all want the most car for the least money. Let’s face it! GM has made some great cars in the past, but at the same time, boy – have they made some bloopers.

I don’t know if I can wait until 2012 for availability of the Volt in Mississippi. I will probably take a good look at Honda’s new hybrid vehicles this fall (assuming they are still to be released). I love my Honda’s in the past and currently. If Honda doesn’t hit my sweet spot, I will probably buy the 2009 Prius. I am hoping for more improvements in the Prius for 2009.

Good Luck To All….

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scott Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Jim #77:
If 12 gallons is able to send this car 640 miles, that will almost get me from Denver to Las Vegas on one tank! I have heard the 640 mile on one tank number before and I find it hard to believe. Why would the volt get 50 MPG on gas alone. I know the generator will be able to run in the optimal RPM range but don’t most cars run close to this in 5th gear on the highway? Plus, with the generator there are losses. The gas-to-electric drive is nothing new, but never made sense with vehicles smaller than a freight train because of these losses. How would the Volt be any different? It will be interesting to see what the actual generator-only MPG rating will be with. I am skeptical it will be 50. My guess would be 35.

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scott Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

nasaman #79,
More mane dropping? Really?

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

#83, scott:

Once you get up to highway speeds the weight of a car doesn’t matter so much. So it may take 25 horsepower to sustain 75 MPH for a Volt or a Geo Metro. So the difference in fuel economy comes down to how efficiently you can produce those 25 horsepower, and that mainly comes down to engine size. If you have a 1L engine like the Volt or Geo Metro, you get close to 50 MPG highway. If you have a 3.5L engine, like a large sedan like a Nissan Maxima, you get half the MPG.

So the Volt getting 50 MPG is believable to me considering the performance of the Geo Metro. There may be some inefficiency with the mechanical-electrical-mechanical conversion, but the Volt should gain some efficiency from its turbo and more modern engine design. Maybe it uses the Atkinson (?) cycle too, like the Prius. It may also benefit because temporary heavy loads can be handled by the battery, but engines run best at WOT so maybe not.

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WROSAIRE Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

OK, COULD ANY ENGINE OR AUTO ENGINEERS AND AUTO DESIGNERS OUT THERE TELL US IF A FUTURE CAR WILL EVER RUN ON ALL OF THE EXCITING CURRENT TECHNOLOGIES COMBINED INTO ONE CAR?…. ULTRACAPASITORS + FLYWHEEL + COMPRESSED AIR + HIGH PERFORMANCE BATTERIES? AND IF FUEL IS REQUIRED, WHAT ABOUT THIS HHO BROWN’S GAS STUFF? IT SEEMS AS IF METHANE, BIOFUEL FROM NONFOOD, HYDROGEN AND FUEL CELL IS PIE IN THE SKY!

I MAY NOT LIVE TO SEE IT BUT IT WOULD BE GOOD IF MY KIDS DO.

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skeptikool Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Let’s have the gasoline or diesel generator as easily removable as an outboard motor from a small boat. This would surely be favored by those traveling only short commutes and wishing to run solely off the grid. Such owners may wish, even, to toss in a extra battery or two.

Black may look good but, particularly in the “hot” states I’d favor white or silver. Don’t under-estimate this as an energy-saver.

Better hurry. An ad is running telling me that I can significantly reduce my fossil fuel use by producing hydrogen “on board” the vehicle, using the car’s battery/ies to split water.

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Jim I Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

scott #83:

I am sure you already understand this, but for those that do not, the small ICE is not linked directly the drive train, but to a generator. So I should think that having a small engine running at optimum rpm should be able for the car to get 50 mpg pretty easily. And don’t forget that GM has said that the aero characteristics are more important than weight, which is why they changed the concept car design. Another performance boost, that uses no gas!!!

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

#88 Jim I:

Scott was making the observation that in 5th gear most cars also run at optimal RPM.

Interestingly, I have found graphs of Prius engine efficiency which show that there are only minor differences in efficiency once you get above ~20% load and a certain minimum RPM. So this whole “optimum RPM” business may not really be the issue we’ve thought.

But one benefit of the Volt design is that the engine can be Atkinson cycle and still deliver massive instantaneous acceleration, unlike a regular car.

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voltme Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

The question of aerodynamics is a very interesting one. One might presume that a wingshape that produces slight lift would be desirable (ala Prius), but not at the expense of wheels to road friction necessary for safe traction. Another interesting aspect of aero design is the effect of the rear spoiler and what CD characteristics are derived from small changes to it.

I would also expect their to be computer based modeling tools that can predictively analyze the impact of design on aero characteristics. For example, drag a control handle to raise or lower the rear deck and view a real time gauge for the corresponding effect on CD.

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voltme Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

All of these questions I’ve posed above in #90 where prevalent as I was tweaking the shape of the concept car to achieve the updated look from the wind tunnel scale model. The results of my photoshop render show that the effect of raising the roof and rear deck have a remarkable effect on the perceived length of the car as can be seen from the pics I’ve just posted.

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Arch Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

#83 Scott

Todays modern car engine is designed to do a lot of things. It has to
be able to come off the line quickly. It has to cruise at medum AND
high speed. To get an engine to do all of this you have to make a lot
of compromises along the way. Each and every one cost you milage
in some other area. Nothing if free when you are designing an engine.

Its just like the Olds 455 engine. In a car they were hot and had plenty of horsepower. They were not know for the best mileage.
Most people do not know that thousands of them were used to
drive very large water pumps. Change the cam run it at a near constant speed and you had one of the most efficient water pumps
ever built.

Take Care
Arch

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scott Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Great discussion! I’m an optimist like all of you but I want to play devil’s advocate on efficiency. When you are cruising and running on generator-only power you can take batteries out of this simplified equation. Let’s say the ICE only needs to produce enough energy to sustain the vehicle’s highway speed. Now, what evidence is that that the small Volt engine could be 2X more efficient in producing that power with all of the mechanical to electric and back to mecanical energy losses than than a Toyota Corolla which also has a small engine but a purely mechanical connection with only a small amount of loss from the transmission. It just doesn’t quite add up, at least for me. I can see a possible efficiency gain in the fact that it is a small generator and the car is very aerodynamic, but there are some heavy batteries onboard, friction is Fun! (F=µN), and then there are the electrical losses which can’t be ignored. It just doesn;t add up to a 2x gain in gas mileage. Someone show me I am wrong. I definitely want to be wrong!

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scott Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

I should have said 70% gain in gas mileage when compared to a 35MPG car, not 2x.

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pstoller78 Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

#93

I’m not certain of this but I think a large part of the efficiency gains come from regenerative braking. The Corolla you mention would not have this capability. Being able to recover a large portion of the energy it takes to get up to speed I think would play a large factor.

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

#93 Scott:

I agree, good discussion.

Okay, let’s consider the Corolla. First of all, it gets 35 highway MPG, so we’re not talking twice as efficient but 42% more efficient. Second, the base Corolla has a 1.8L engine which is a full 80% bigger than the Volt’s. Also, according to some page I just found, the Atkinson cycle can make an engine up to 10% more efficient. Also, the Volt will have a turbo, which makes it somewhat more efficient than NA but I’m not sure how much. Additionally, the Corolla has a CD of 0.29 whereas the Volt and Prius are 0.26 which is 10% better. (This starts to make a difference at ~50 MPH and increases exponentially.)

So that’s a lot of reasons why the Volt could be much more efficient than the Corolla.

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john1701a Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

>> If you have a daily commute of less than 40 miles, or less than 80 miles if you
>> can re-charge at work, you will use NO gasoline at all!

You are feeding a misconception.

The engineers have clearly stated the engine will have to be run from occasionally to keep in properly maintained. So the absolute of “NO” is false.

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DaveP Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

I’m glad they’re not just making it a cobalt. I don’t think that’s going to affect the delivery date or the price to produce the car, either. As for the price, Ok, they’re going to spend more $$ on designers and people to customize this car, but so what? It’s not like they just hired these people from out of the blue. It just means they won’t redesign some other car, say, the cobalt in the same time frame because those people are all busy with the volt. And for those people that think they could have the car sooner… no. They are sticking the drivetrain into Malibus and that doesn’t mean they’re anywhere ready to ship “Malivolts”. Too much more testing to do. So, while all that is going on, might as well design a cool car around the drive train. In the end, it won’t matter if the assembly line is stamping out volt panels or cobolt panels or malibu panels for that matter. Might as well be Volt panels.
The initial Prius was basically the much-unloved Echo. Sales in the US were actually pretty awful until they redesigned it to the current Prius everbody recognizes. That redesign was an undeniable part of what made the Prius eventually successful. GM is right to want to get the styling right on the first go around. It shows they really are paying attention to this.

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Chevy Volt: On Video - Page 4 - PriusChat Forums Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Bill Cooley Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

We need a low price electric vehicle NOW!

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john1701a Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

>> The initial Prius was basically the much-unloved Echo. Sales in the US
>> were actually pretty awful until they redesigned it to the current Prius
>> everbody recognizes.

Echo wasn’t rolled out until 4 years afterward. Prius was first, the design that contributed to creating Echo.

As for sales, be careful. Volt production will also be limited intentionally. But I could just as easily claim the numbers were low due to demand… like you just did for Prius.

Making assumptions will reduce the credibility of Volt enthusiasts. Now is your chance to study up on what actually happened.

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Dwayne Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

Does anyone online know what the actual average selling price of a car sold in the US is? I would be very suprised if it was not well above 30K.

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Arch Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

#93 Scott

The Toyota Corolla is a parallel system. That means the engine has to operate well in a wide range of RPM. The volt is a serial system.
The engine (I hope) runs at one speed and under one known load.
Any engine will have a torque curve that looks something like a
bell-curve. The top of that curve is the most efficent RPM to operate the engine. Parallel hybrids help the engine through the tough start up from the stopsign. With the serial system the engine NEVER
sees the startup from a stopsign. All it ever sees is the charging load. To top that it is running at the top of the bell-curve. That alone
will give you much better mileage. Then if you go back and redesign
to engine to only operate in a very narrow RPM bandwith you can get another big mileage gain.

Take Care
Arch

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john1701a Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

>> To top that it is running at the top of the bell-curve.

FULL hybrids, like Prius, do the same. The engine to pushed to that top to avoid inefficiencies. That’s why you often see electricity recharging the battery-pack at the same time electricity is being used for propulsion.

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

#105 Dwayne:
The average price for a vehicle in the US is, I believe, $12k. (Yes, for those who don’t “get it”, many vehicle purchases are of used cars.)

#106 Arch:
Check out this link for Prius torque/efficiency curves:

http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/prius-curves.gif

They’re pretty flat. I don’t think it really matters that the Volt will be able to run at a fixed load/RPM. (And actually I doubt it could effectively run at fixed load anyway. The goal is to keep the battery charged at 30% which means demands on the engine will basically vary with the demands of the driver, i.e., if the battery is already at 30% and the driver speeds up, the engine load will increase, and vice versa.)

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john b Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Two things it must have for my wife. Dual climate control and cushy
heated seats.

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Dwayne Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:42 pm

OK, let me rephrase the question: Does anyone online know what the actual average selling price of a new car sold in the US is? I would be very suprised if it was not well above 30K.

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Ted in Fort Myers Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

I already have a car which gets 600 miles on a ten gallon tank. The Honda Insight. I had to look for it because Honda was not pushing it and when I bought it there was only 4 available in the State of Florida. But it still burns gas and my next car will be electric.
Also, the reason the mileage can be so high is the lack of moving parts with internal friction. I speak of the larger 6 and 8 cylinder engines and automatic transmissions, rear ends, universal joints, large disk brakes which drag on disks when not in use, etc. Using all of this knowlege 50 MPG should be easy. It just can’t be done with a monster SUV.

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nasaman Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

110 Dwayne….

“In 2006, for example, an estimated 44 million used cars will be sold as compared to an estimated 17 million new cars. While the average sale price of a used car is estimated at about $13,900, the average price of a new car is estimated at roughly $27,800.”

From….

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/45310/article.html

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ThombDbhomb Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

…so what will the Volt’s selling price be? (sound of gasoline poured on fire)

Please don’t answer…I’ve heard enough Volt price conjecture.

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Al Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

PS to Tom, put up or shut up! My diesel generator set is a better one on the market and can be found today all over the Web. As it turns out your fictional 200 lb generator set (60-70hp motor and of course the 50KW generator head needed to run this beast) will also need cooling that the Marine version did not need. 1000lbs is a liability that you or GM cannot pooh pooh away. What do you think is taking up the area under the hood? It is not batteries, they are sitting between the 2 children in the back seat. The electric motor is relatively small. The generator set is BIG. Try to buy one for the home!

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Arch Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

#108 Tom

Now first of all I never said the Prius was not a good machine. I just said the Volt would be a better one IF they can get the costs down.
To introduce hybrids to the masses the first ones went the cheapest
route. I understand that. NOW it is time to go to the better system. IF
the Volt comes in with anything less than a honest 50 MPG I will be dissapointed. Electricity is cheaper than gas. Why not use it? Next
if you look at the output on the generator it is a little bit more than
what the draw is on the motor. That means that once it fires up it will
be charging at a greater rate than the motor will be using it. Sure looks like fun to me!

Take Care
Arch

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nasaman Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

110 Dwayne & 113 ThombDbhomb…..

Our question #1 to GM (of the 20 ques’s compiled on April 9) was:

“On Mar 5, Robert Babik of GM said in a CNN interview, ‘(the Volt) is expected to cost about the same as a typical Chevy compact sedan.’ After reading this, I went to the Chevy website and & priced a fully-loaded Malibu LTZ 1LZ, which includes virtually every option available, like a 3.6LV6 (252 hp), 18″ alloy wheels, paddle shifters, etc, etc. The site gave me an MSRP of $27,445.00! So am I right in concluding that the MSRP for the base Volt should be about the same as a typical Chevy compact sedan???”

Is anyone else struck by the fact that this question started out as quoting a GM official scarcely 30 days ago, which led to pricing a fully-loaded Malibu for $27,445 ….and that this is not so different from Edmund’s avg new car price of $27,800 (in 2006)!?!?!?

Maybe there’s still a glimmer of hope the Volt’s base price will be ~$30K?!?

[THREAD HIJACKERS ARRESTED, CUFFED & INCARCERATED!]

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Andrew Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

Jeez, out of over 100 posts 90 of them must have been whining about the price or that they what it now.

Stop already. Whining ain’t gonna get GM to lower their price. They’re not your parents after all.

Besides that, people are forgetting GM has largely isolated themselves now from the ridiculous costs of buying extremely generous health insurance policies for all their employees. Gone with that is the $5000 those costs added to every GM car, whether it was a Cobalt, where the customer really notices $5000 or whether a Corvette, where the typical customer spends $10,000 tarting the car up after it leaves the dealer.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

I’m ready for the electric car revolution to get here SOON!

I’m TIRED of waiting for “five more years” or “two more years”. I want to see super energy efficient, super low emission, super quiet cars on the roads all over the world just as fast as the auto industry can manufacture them. It’s time. Right now … like the old Van Halen song … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCkQZOnCN3k

Won’t it be GREAT when you won’t have to hear loud garbage trucks in your neighborhood? Check out this new electric hybrid garbage truck on video:

http://volvo.qbrick.com/index.aspx?cid=2&mode=3&mid=65

http://www.volvo.com/trucks/global/en-gb/newsmedia/pressreleases/pressreleases.htm

http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/C96EEB71-7907-4907-BF4D-23F6BAFAF2F5/0/Hybrid_EN_final.pdf

Even the dogs in the neighborhood won’t know when the garbage man is in the neighborhood. Electric hybrid technology should be VERY popular for the truck delivery companies like Fedex, UPS, the US Mail, etc. Electric hybrids are great for stop and go, in town driving. Trucks waste a LOT of fuel just idling you know. Lots of truck fleet owners ought to be HIGHLY motivated about electric hybrids with diesel fuel at $4+ per gallon.

I look forward to the cleaner air and less noise coming from the trucks, I know that. It might also help lower the prices of food and everything else that gets trucked to the stores. I hear that Wal Mart is trying to “go green” with their HUGE truck fleet to try to save us some money. I’ll try to shop there more often. Their grocery prices are pretty good you know. Get some compact fluorescent light bulbs while you are at Wal Mart. They have a huge aisle full of them. They’re pretty inexpensive and last for years and save you money on your electricity bill. I know I did.

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noel park Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

Well I thought that the thread was about the appearance of the Volt.

Interesting that someone mentioned the Echo. I have been thinking all day that the model above bears an eerie resemblance to the late and unlamented Echo.

I know that I have said many times that I don’t care what it looks like as long as it goes 40 miles before the ICE starts, but gee guys give me a break. It’s a long way from the picture at the top of this thread to “sporty and athletic”.

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

#114, Al:

Look, your 1300 lbs just doesn’t make any sense.

Okay, let’s talk about the weight of the engine and peripheral components, which includes cooling, i.e., the radiator, water pump, etc. I think the weight for the Honda Insight is ~150 lbs but I can’t find that page anymore so let’s talk about the Ariel Atom. It’s an ENTIRE CAR with a 2L supercharged 300 HP Honda engine and it weighs 1005 lbs. (That’s obviously including the seat, steel frame, wheels, tires, brakes, etc.)

Now let’s talk about the actual generator itself. Basically it’s just an electric motor. The Tesla Roadster has a 248 horsepower electric motor that weighs 70 lbs.

So if you take both of those weights and combine them, you have an engine that’s WAY bigger than the Volt’s, an electric motor that’s WAY more powerful than the Volt’s generator, the entire rest of a car, and you come to a grand total of 1075 lbs.

My only explanation for the 1300 lb weight for your marine generator is that it was simply not designed to be lightweight and it probably has a bunch of steel to make it sturdy.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

#116 nasaman

How can I be a thread hijacker if I said, “don’t answer” in my post #113? You took the bait and ran with it! Don’t be mad…I’m just having fun with you while I’m waiting for Lyle’s next topic.

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Grizzly Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

nasaman # 116

I’ve got to admit that’s a pretty good question, if for no other reason than the quote from one of their own.

However, I don’t expect the fist 10K to sell for anything less than what the market supply/demand dictates. If anyone expects otherwise, time to fix your clock.

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

#114 Al:

Here’s another datapoint that I just realized. There are plenty of motorcycles that weigh around 450 lbs and produce over 100 horsepower. Surely over 70 lbs of that weight is the frame, seat, wheels, etc.

So the absolute upper bound for the weight of the Volt’s genset is at the very most 450 lbs.

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Grizzly Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Tom #32

“You may laugh at the idea that Honda and Toyota are better at the car business than GM, but last I checked, GM is swirling the drain while Toyota is happy and profitable and just overtook them in terms of vehicles sold.”

*** *** *** ***

Toyota never overtook GM like the silly press fore casted. GM and Toyota are headed in opposite directions as evidenced by 2 Toyota shoo-ins not making the Consumer Reports recommended list as they had for the past ten years largely due to repeated problems. In 2006 Toyota suffered the greatest recall in terms of sheer numbers of vehicles in automotive history, many of those were for the notable engine sludging problems. Buick tied Lexus as the most trouble free brand of car, followed by Cadillac. GM has won numerous car of the year awards in the past couple of years starting with the Saturn Aura, Chevy Silverado, Buick Enclave, and now the Cadillac CTS. How many has Toyota won?

If the trend continues, I’d rather be in GM’s shoes than Toyota’s and there is nothing to suggest it won’t.

Do a little research before you post, and stop calling it as it was 20+ years ago.

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mmcc Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Just got home and watched the interview — outstanding! You hit a home run Lyle.

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Ken R. Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

I bought a 2007 Prius over 2007 Hybrid Camry because my golf Clubs wouldn’t fit in the Camry. The Prius also gets better gas mileage, cost less and the Prius back seat has more leg room.

Plug-in Hybrid will be my next car.

The Volt trunk looks small. Make sure my clubs will fit !!!
Also make sure a 6′ 2″ person can sit in the back seat with enough leg and head room with the driver seat all the way back.

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PJK Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

Great update… hope the schedule stays on schedule without any setbacks… looks great so far!

re: Toyota

Just heard another friend who has a 98 Toyota truck that was just diagnosed as ” unrepairable” the frame completely rusted out. My Chevy was 21 years old when I sold it. Even Unfair trade isn’t helping the Japanese these days .. a lot of people are finding out that they aren’t as good as the bias journalism majors say they are while GM just keeps making a all round good vehicle that lasts.

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Dennis Dale Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

To sell this car it must be very sporty, have a good quality interior like the corvette, must have ultra light weight rims and tires, and the cost should be around $23,000 to $26,000 base which includes a high quality electric cord for charging thrown in for good measure. I would also ditch the spare tire and go with run-flat tires standard to provide more trunk space and with help reduce total body weight! Have more ideas but who cares? A serious thought relates to the battery technology…diesel submarines have been utilizing this type of “volt” technology for a very long time! In fact that use something called “split plant” mode of operation in which the engine runs at an efficient RPM to turn the generator which produces electric energy to supply or float the batteries and also provide power to the main drive electric motor! This is nothing new under the sun by any means! Also, the Germans have some superior battery technology related to their submarines…has anyone checked into this?

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Arch Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

http://www.automotive.com/used-cars/recalls/11/toyota/prius/index.html

Take Care
Arch

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Al Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

Tom,
Just show me a web page for your imaginary generator set. All generators that I can find for any application in the 50KW region are HEAVY. Portable units are HEAVY.
I would NEVER buy the first Model year of the Volt! Too many unknowns and unproven Technology. I would love to see this car drive up Pikes Peak.

To all the GM Marketing folks that make WILD claims like Grizzly:

First I have the 2008 Buying guide by Consumer reports. It says: Buick Terazza – Expected new car reliabilty based on past perfomance – Much Worse than Average, Cadillac SRX V6 – Worse than Average, Chevy Aveo – Worse than Average, Cadillac Seville Much Worse than Average.

Secondly, don’t lie about the competition to make GM look better. Toyota with one Average rating (its lowest) Held Much better or Better than average for the whole fleet. Just check the parking lot for GM vs Toyotas, Hondas, etc. Not One Toyota made the “Cars to avoid list.” Plenty of GMs received the dubious award!

I suppose next, the very Consumer Reports you tout now, will be some Japanese sponsored publication blah, blah, blah.

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tom b Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

how much later before a small wagon or suv will be built on the same platform. I need a more practical car to fit all my needs . would not mind the added expense if it would do everything for me . I think the market is wide open for a commuter wagon .

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

#124 Grizzly:

Toyota actually did overtake GM in global sales in Q1 2007, that must be what I was remembering. Anyway, yes, Toyota has admitted that they let quality slip and they’ve started a program to get it back up to normal. If that’s the only bad thing going on at Toyota I still want to be on their team. All I hear about GM is incessant bad news–layoffs, closed plants, massive financial losses and write-offs, etc.

#130 Al:

I’m not going to debate you about the generators you’ve found on the Internet. I’m 100% sure you’re right that you can’t find one that weighs less than XYZ pounds. But I’m trying to appeal to your sense of reason here. Can we agree that a generator is comprised of an engine and an electric motor? And can we agree that a suitable engine weighs < 450 lbs and a suitable electric motor weighs < 70 lbs? If so, I don’t see what the problem is. You must disagree with one of these statements or you would also believe that the Volt’s genset can’t weigh more than 450 + 70 lbs.

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Grizzly Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

Al #130

I never cease to be amazed by those who feel empowered by CR and “who killed the electric car” as their sole sources of automotive wisdom. Ain’t DAT sumpin’??

Al….to quote your post…. “Cadillac Seville”???….. Gm discontinued this car in the early 80’s. Al my old man, you might want to consider some recent (within the last 30 or so years) sources, and try your best to get out of the house.

WHY do I continue to feed the trolls? Tag?

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GM Volt Fan Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

One thing I’ve noticed is that on Consumer Reports the latest HYBRIDS tend to get damn good RELIABILITY ratings. That’s what I want to see with the Volt. High reliability and quality ratings for the whole car.

http://www.consumerreports.org

I hope ALL the series/parallel/power split hybrids coming out in the next 10 years have a big increase in reliability. Electrical components usually beat mechanical components in reliability every time if they are designed and tested properly. Maybe they’ll have far fewer repairs over the life of the car along with the less maintenance!

The Toyota Prius got a bunch of those Excellent “red circles” …. almost all of them for the 07 Prius are rated excellent on the CR website if you have a subscription. THAT is what I want to see for the Volt! I want to see GM get back on top in reliability and quality.

The one thing the 07 Prius doesn’t do well on is the acceleration. Hopefully, Bob Lutz is going to get the Volt programmed to go 0-60 in 7 seconds or so like he mentioned one time. The 160hp electric motor ought to be able to do that with the instantaneous torque you get from it.

I also want GM to put a decent SUSPENSION on the Volt … a nice, 4 wheel independent suspension like on some Hondas I’ve seen would great. I also hear the Prius is lacking with the steering and handling.

In a nutshell, GM needs to build us a Toyota Prius killer. Impress those guys with the car magazines and Consumer Reports and the Volt will probably be a monster success story. People ARE influenced by those magazines and car websites. People like to get the most bang for the buck in their next car and they don’t really like having to analyze every tiny detail of about 10-20 cars. The car magazines and CR help people narrow things down and decide what they really want and how much they should pay for it.

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Paul-R Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

The new Volt is so ugly with all those stupid diagonal stripes. Who’s gonna buy that? You can’t even see out the windows! GM has no car sense. I know, because I read it in Consumer Reports.

Only the Japanese have car sense. I’m buying a Japanese Eliica electric car. 8-wheel-drive! 640 HP!! 250 MPH!!! Check out the YouTube vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95Lh3NnL4A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZISVJNJ6W2o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8t2c9WErTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw7nMLy81Vs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILbsaaAqELg

I’ll be saving the planet at 250MPH in my electric monster-car … that’s what I’m talking about.

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Steve Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:44 pm

Lot of strong opinions out there. Think that whether Volt will be a success or not is going to depend on mainstream appeal and cost of operation better than a 35-40mpg econobox. I’ll need more than a good feeling about reducing oil useage. When I considered hybrids last car purchase the math said it would take a long time to break even with purchase price vs. fuel savings. Bottom line will be the same sort of math with newr data. Until I see the actual car and the numbers, I can’t get any more enthusiastic. I suspect there are going to be competitors to consider seriously if when the Volt finally arrives.

Aptera looks interesting, but it’s only a tiny two seater, msrp of nearly $30K, not in production yet, and initially only available on the coast opposite me. Might as well be sold only on the moon. These days make rounds to my retail customer 2-3 times a week. 40-60 miles round trips. I’m in the target performance for the Volt. The Aptera is technically a motorcycle. Might not meet my average cargo handling needs. If if needed just a commuter it might be a great deal, but at first glance it seems a little pricey.

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mifh Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

Quite Disappointed.
Don’t really understand the delay. 2 years and 7 months will most likely make most of the people look for other options. There are many options that will be available in 2 years or less. I could end up buying a 2009 Toyota Prius in 2010 for a discount for probably $18000 less than a 2011 Volt. Is GM just plain nutz for delaying this car when they have been promoting it all over the place for the last 6 months. If this car is priced over $32; I’ll be finding an import and alot of people will be doing the same. Who wants to be the idiot to pay way TOO MUCH for a car just to save a $50 a month on gas over some close competitors.

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Al Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

Poor Old Grizzly, can’t keep his facts straight:

Cadillac did indeed make a 2003 Cadillac STS Seville. CR has some data for 05 (yep I don’t know where they got that either) so the STS Seville appeared in the 2008 book. So let’s agree to toss that altogether and just use the regular STS which is still made today and is just Worse than average.

Tom, I am sorry that you cannot substantiate your position. I won’t agree to your very strange logic. All the 50KWs I have every been around (more than a few) were Very Large. You can run your whole house on that power! GM says “and then a miracle happens,” doesn’t work for me. Does anyone know the weight of this car yet?

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Tom Says:
April 7th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

#138 Al:

How is my logic strange? It’s a simple fact that a genset is an engine and a motor. Do you disagree or not? You don’t have any actual logic behind your argument, just some unrelated anecdotal experience. And 50 kW does not impress me at all, it’s 71 horsepower. My car engine produces 190 horsepower, of course I can run my whole house on it, several times over, so what?

Check this out, look at the Wikipedia page for the EV-1. Search for serial hybrid. They built a genset based on a gas turbine that weighed 220 lbs. and produced 40 kW. This is in-line with what I’ve been saying all along.

Of course you will now complain that a turbine isn’t the same as a piston engine, but the simple fact is that they both rotate a crankshaft, so if you can find a piston engine that weighs ~150 lbs. it will serve the same purpose and you end up with something similar to the Volt’s genset.

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speed Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 12:35 am

That’s someting because the 2009 Toyota Prius is going too and will increase there displacement of there engine to 1.8-liter or 1.9-liter four cylinder. Wonder what the mileage going to be? And why increase it?

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Je Ro Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 1:20 am

How about making the car a hatchback? It must be a useful car.

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MLRTYME Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 2:13 am

126 Ken…the days of fitting us “taller folk” in the backseat of anything is long gone. My mother retired and purchased a Suburban about 3 years ago (maybe 4) and I cannot fit my legs comfortably in any of the rear seats…and I’m not that tall at 6′3″. I’m just happy if I fit in the front seat. Of course, the fact that I’m the smallest of the 3 boys in our family doesn’t bode well for trips of any particular length with the whole family in tow, but I would have expected a Suburban to be able to provide room. Oh well!

BTW Lyle, your peice on FBN was terrific! Kudos!

As for “sporty and athletic”…man, I hope so!

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Ethan Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 3:14 am

- First off, is Tesla producing cars? I don’t see any. Can you buy one?
- GM is going to be years ahead of other car companies after learning the struggles of engineering an electric car. So, if any other super high capacity energy storage systems come soon, GM will benefit and so will all of us…
- GM’s goal is to make money and the market drives their products. It takes 60 months from design to market. 5 years ago average gas was $1.65 and that was after a spike. If gas was $1.65 today, what car would you be talking about? I doubt it would be the volt…

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mmcc Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 5:01 am

Just received the May issue of MT with the Caddy CTS on the cover. I do see the resemblance in the Volt and the Caddy. It would be great if the Volt turned out to be a slightly smaller, 4-door version of the CTS. MT also states on the cover that the CTS is “The best-looking american car in decades.”

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BillR Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 7:15 am

#139 Tom

Here is a link to an article on a GM 2.0 L supercharged engine. It weighed in at 330 lbs with a supercharger and intercooler. This is a 4 cyl engine.

http://www.j-body.org/faq//46/

For the 3 cyl, 1.0 L turbocharged engine in the Volt, I would expect a lower weight, possibly 200 to 250 lbs, not including the generator.

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noel park Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 10:58 am

#141 Je Ro:

Amen!

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Tagamet Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 11:10 am

Grizzly, Grizzly, Grizzly,…(shakes head slowly). Note to self: Increase Grizzly’s Troll Rx.

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Jim I Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 11:54 am

It is going to be a very long 30 months……………….

John1701a #100:

Are you kidding me? You are going to nitpick & complain about the amount of gas used to sustain the engine?

OK, lets do the math:

Absolute minimum engine run time per month to keep everything in working condition – I am not an engineer and do not know exactly, but a WAG is 10 minutes per month, just enough to bring it to normal running temp. As far as the fuel, just put in a good stabilizer. And if my habits did not cause the ICE to kick in, I would not keep much fuel in the tank (It would lower the amount of weight being hauled around – 10 gallions of gas weighs 62.5 lbs at 72 degrees)………. Another perfromance improvement!

If we make the assumption of 50 mpg @ 50 mph = 1 gallon of fuel consumed per hour, that would mean that it would take 6 months of 10 minute runs to burn a gallon of gas. So this car would consume 2 gallons of gasoline per year!

So it would take 6 YEARS for a Volt to use a tank of gas. And how much fuel would your wonderful awe inspiring Prius use in that same amount of time?

If you don’t feel silly, you should!

If I am wrong, and anyone has real experience in how much run time is required to keep an engine working, please chime in. I have a friend with a restored 1955 Chevy, and he only starts it up about twice per year.

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Tagamet Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

Lol, Jim I, the idea that the discussion would turn to the engine maintanence/run time is proof POSITIVE that A) it is indeed going to be a very long 30 months and B) we do indeed need to get out more, Maybe we could start a Troll Hunting Season to pass the time….

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noel park Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

#148 Jim I, #149 Tagamet:

A long 30 months indeed. Do you think that this is sustainable for 30 months?

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Tagamet Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Noel,
I believe it is. There’s a lot of fire in the bellies here.

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Jim I Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Tag:

Questions concerning the Troll Hunting Season Pass:

0. Does Lyle have a counter list to see how many people want one?
1. How much is it?
2. When will it be avaiable?
3. Can I put down a deposit for a pre-order?
4. Is it an annual pass or can it be purchased for the entire 30 months?
5. What is the “limit” per season?
6. Does it include the “Lets bring back the EV-1″ and the “Can I get a BEV only version?” groups?

Please feel free to add on any items I may have missed……

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Tagamet Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Hmmmm, so many one liners, so little time…
Given the fact that trolls are known to actually thrive when attacked, “Pack licenses” may need to be issued so that Non-trolls could form teams. New meaning for the term “Tag team”. Extra points would obviously be issued for Trolls still sporting their como tape (they are harder to see, after all). Points scored by the teams could be used toward movement up the waiting list for Volt V 1.0’s. Due to the very limited availability of the first Volts, the winning team would be locked in a Hotel 6 room until one member emerged. GM would pick up the tab for the room (and hospitalizations therefrom).

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Pat De Winne Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

I want cup holders front and back, a clock that can be seen with the sun shining on it, a radio with a minimum number of buttons with LARGE print, and fabric, not leather, upholstery. SOON!!!!

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Jim I Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Tag:

I forgot the most important item on my list:

7. Will the pass be for sale and usable worldwide, or will it only be available in “limited areas” for the initial rollout…..

As far a Tag Teams, I would prefer the option of a “lone gunman” or “sniper option”, even if it is has to be made as an extra cost item. I know that most users want to use the KISS method, which favors the team approach and would cost less, but there are a few of us that are willing to go it alone, and pay for that privilege!!!

And it would be a lot less mess to clean up at the Hotel 6.

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noel park Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Based upon the last few comments, I would just repeat my question at #150!

I was raised to believe that trolls were grumpy little fairy tale folks who lived under a bridge and made rude comments to passersby. Was it “The Three Billy Goats Gruff’?

I looked it up in my tattered old paperback Webster which I keep on my desk since I can’t work the spell check on this blog, if any. You may not believe it, but I do try to proofread. OMG, I just misspelled “proofread”, but what can you expect from an engineer?

n. #3 – “a fairy dwarf”.

I looked it up on Yahoo and found an extensive item about happy little furry creatures living in caves around Santa Clarita, CA who played a key role in the founding of Magic Mountain Amusement Park.

My understanding of internet lingo is that a “troll” is some sort of an agent provocatouer for some other agenda. What the hey, some may even accuse moi of that! A wise friend of mine once told me, “Never invent a conspiracy theory for something which can be explained by simple incompetence”. I think that something similar applies here. If someone makes outrageous statements, or has the poor taste to disagree with us, I would think twice before calling them a “troll”.

First of all, some may take it as a compliment. Second, I fear that we give them entirely too much encouragement and air time by doing so. Better to just ignore them and drive on, IMHO.

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john1701a Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

>> You are going to nitpick & complain about the amount of gas used to sustain
>> the engine?

As long as people here continue to express * NEVER * for the amount, you better believe it. Being disingenuous harms reputation. Don’t allow the antagonists such an easy opportunity to discredit.

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john1701a Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

>> My understanding of internet lingo is that a “troll” is some sort of an agent
>> provocatouer for some other agenda.

The ambiguous nature of Volt’s target market makes agenda difficult to identify in the first place.

But there is an underlying anti-hybrid movement, those fighting any major step forward toward both cleaner emissions and improved efficiency.

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Grizzly Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Tag #147

Yes….chalk circle on the black board and nose pressed square in the center…..

I WILL NOT FEED THE TROLLS…
I WILL NOT FEED THE TROLLS…
I WILL NOT …….

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texaskyle Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

Like I’ve said, looks just like the Dodge Caliber.

Boooo

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Greg Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 8:41 pm

Have the engineers considered placing a solar cell on the roof to help recharge the battery?

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Russ Cupp Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

I want a car that uses either no gas (total commuter electric that will do 60 MPH) or a plug in hybrid and I want it now – not in 2010.

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J.D. Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

I still have a lot of questions that will need to be answered before I would make the purchase. I am still enthuised abot the car,however,geographic location,weather conditions,the design,curb weight and purchase price are just to name a few. I bought one of the die-cast models and I think this vehicle could be very impressive for the average consumer with a detailed and limited driving arena. Even after talking to Toyota sales the Prius would not be a car for my situation. I have a lot of concern about the wind resistance of oncoming Semi -Trailers and winter type road conditions to make this vehicle a replacement vehicle for a daily driver. I would hope this car will not be a Corvette type vehicle whereas, one is skeptical in driving just on certain good days. I would sure like to have or see test data out here in the very Heartland of the U.S.A. I’ll keep watching for updates. Thanks…..

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Patrick Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

Was that pixie dust in the video? They are going to have to shower me in it before I shell out $35,000 for a vehicle they should do for $25,000 or less. “Come on USA”, don’t let Toyota get you on the car of the future!!

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Tagamet Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

This is me not feeding john3:16.

(and Jim I, I like the sniper option a LOT)

PS Piceune is worse than disingenuous.

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Jim I Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 11:07 pm

Sorry guys, I just have to do this……

john1701a #158:

Your quote:

“But there is an underlying anti-hybrid movement, those fighting any major step forward toward both cleaner emissions and improved efficiency”

ON THIS SITE?????? Are you not reading the same posts as the rest of us???? The almost universal chorus is for GM and every other auto manufacturer to get more parallel hybrids, PHEV’s, full BEV’s, serial hybrid’s (or E-REV’s, if you prefer), and even fuel cell technology on the market ASAP! People want a choice, different than what they have been offered for the last 100 years. No, that is incorrect. They want multiple choices, so they can pick what is best for their personal driving requirements. There is no one answer that will work for every car owner on the planet. Is that so hard for you to understand?

I have made the decision that the next car I want to purchase will use as little gasoline as possible to get as much range as the technology will permit at the time I make my purchase. Personally, I could care less if the engineers figured out how to use twisted rubber bands to make the car go for 40 miles per day! But for right now, I like the idea of the E-REV design, so that I do not have to have another vehicle available for longer distance travel, because for five of the seven days per week, 40 miles of AER works for me. The other two days, I have to drive more miles than that. But as I have said time and time again, my current consumption of gasoline will drop by at least 90%, and that is what I am trying to accomplish.

The Prius, which may be cheaper to purchase, does not meet my stated goal. Plus, I just do not like how it looks, which is an opinion I am allowed to have. It really is that simple.

I do not tell you that you are wrong for buying a Prius. So please stop telling us that our decision to purchase a different technology, like the Volt, is wrong, or somehow inferior to your selection. It is my decision, and my money, so I will end up spending on what I decide is the best choice for me.

And quite frankly, if you do not like my decision, why should I care?????

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Tagamet Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

Ok Jim I at 165, that’s sums it all up.
Next topic.

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Al Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 12:01 am

139 Tom,

You will never convert all 75 mechanical HP into DC Electrical Power. In this case you will need some really nice Alternator(s) to do the trick – maybe liquid cooled. The engine must be matched to the HP/Torque requirements of said Alternator(s). If the conversion is 30% efficient, you will need 225 HP just to produce the DC power to run the electrical motor and recharge the battery. 50KW is a lot of electrical power to generate. Your “cute” EV-1 Williams power plant at 100,000 rpm besides being outlandishly expensive was never proven and does not exist on the market today. If the Volt has to have this power plant, I dread to see the sticker price.

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CM Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 12:13 am

Arch said: “The Toyota Corolla is a parallel system. That means the engine has to operate well in a wide range of RPM.”
The Corolla isn’t a hybrid, not yet, I think you meant “Prius”. Also, the Prius and other Hybrid Synergy Drive cars are “split path” hybrids, with part of the IC engine power output going through a generator then a motor like a serial hybrid, and the rest transmitted mechanically to the wheels like a parallel hybrid. The Hybrid Synergy Drive acts as a continuously variable transmission, allowing the IC engine to run at the most efficient speed range, regardless of the speed of the car. Incredibly, it does all that using fewer moving parts than a standard transmission!

Conversion losses going from IC engine generator to motor to wheels is approx. 10%, rising to over 20% if the electricity is stored in the batteries before going to the motor. The Hybrid Synergy Drive can reduce the conversion loss as low as 5%, thanks to the more efficient mechanical path.

There are several things that help fuel economy in full hybrids, including regenerative braking, engine shutoff & autostart, Atkinson/Miller engine, and CVT optimized engine speed, but the biggie is the use of a smaller IC engine, sized just large enough for freeway cruising – additional power for acceleration comes from the batteries. With a well optimized design, the Volt should be able to match the current Prius in fuel economy in spite of slightly greater conversion losses, due to use of a slightly smaller IC engine.

Toyota isn’t standing still, they’ve already got several prototype plug-in Prius on the road already. With more battery power, the prototype was able to use more powerful motor/generators and a different gearing ratio to allow all electric speeds up to 60 mph, while retaining the efficiency of the split-path design. The production version might get even more battery power, achieve EV freeway speeds, and might even use a smaller IC engine. The race is on, and the winners are everybody but OPEC and the oil companies! To get some idea of Toyota’s future plans:
http://blogs.automotive.com/6229728/concept-cars/toyota-1-x-concept-is-light-at-2008-chicago-auto-show/index.html

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CM Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 12:42 am

#167 Al: Of course there are conversion losses, but nowhere near 70%! Average run-of-the-mill generators are 90% to 95% efficient at converting mechanical energy into electrical energy, the very best are close to 98%! That means an 80 hp IC engine might be more than adequate.

As for the Williams gas turbine power plant, it might not be available, but a similar unit from Capstone is. Capstone makes gas turbogenerators for cogeneration with 1 moving part and air bearings, and is experimenting with turbogenerators for automotive use. I do agree that the current price is too high, though it is considerably less than H2 fuel cells.

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Al Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 10:42 am

169 CM

Where are you getting your numbers?? Please provide a reference.
Most commonly quoted efficiencies are 20 % for an ICE.to produce mechanical power from gas.
The rectification process eats a whopping 70% of the energy going from AC – DC.
The resulting energy will only be 2.2KWh in the Batteries from a gallon of gas. So 1 gallon of gas only goes ~ 10 miles using a Volt not the 50 I see bandied about.
From Capstone’s own site the electrical conversion from fuel in, to AC out is 33%. In that case you get 1 gallon in and closer to 20 Miles in the Volt – still not 50 mpg…

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doggydogworld Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

#157 John1701a

It’s true GM has discussed running the ICE occasionally even when not needed for lubrication and such, but it would not surprise me if they decided against it. They could, for instance, run the ICE off shop fuel during annual maintenance in cases where datalogs show extended range has not been used. This allows marketeers to claim “if you drive less than 40 miles per day you will NEVER use any gasoline”. This could be a big differentiator vs. blended mode PHEVs. Or perhaps not. Time will tell.

#171 Al

The Volt’s 53 kW range extender is a 53 kW ICE with a 50 kW electrical generator. The Prius engine is a bit less than 50 kW and weighs 88 kg. The Prius engine connects to two motor/generators, the larger of which (MG2) is 50 kW same as the Volt and weighs 45 kg. Total weight is thus 133 kg or less than 300 lbs.

BUT:

The Prius engine is 4 cyl, 1.5L. The Volt ICE is 3 cyl, 1.0L. Estimated Volt engine weight is 60-70 kg. Although smaller and lighter than the Prius engine, the Volt engine achieves slightly higher power output, presumably via turbocharging. Also note that 8.9 kg of Prius MG2 weight is the case, which also supports other drive train components in the Prius design but not in the Volt. Furthermore, the Camry Hybrid MG2 actually weighs LESS than the older Prius MG2, despite putting out more power. Toyota claims Camry MG2 is 105 kW, but the Oak Ridge teardown says 70. The lower Oak Ridge number, combined with a lighter case, brings us to a Volt generator weight estimate of about 30 kg.

Volt range extender weight should thus come in around 60-70kg + 30kg = 90-100kg or 200-220 lbs. Or, instead of using automotive-grade components GM engineers could just stick a 1300 lb marine diesel generator in there. Hmmm, I wonder which they’ll choose.

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Paul Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

Why not use AC drive motors?

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Al Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

172. The whole rest of the generator world has not figured this out yet. Just find a commercial anything like the imaginary Volt ICE range Extender. It appears the ICE/Gen set does not exist yet. I also believe (based on efficiencies) the mpg with the extender is exaggerated like the low Volt price. GM said the EV1 was running them $80K per copy with no ICE. Since this proposed system is not COTS, guess what happens to the total Volt price again! Maybe GM should just buy Prius Gen Sets to charge their batteries. Don’t bother to quote unsubstantiated Wikipedia articles either.
GM really needs to hurry, Miles XS500 gets closer by the day as does Aptera.

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Shane Hughes Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 7:54 am

The increased roof height sounds like a bad idea. It seems this would make it less sporty-looking and increase drag.

What’s the price range? GM would be wise to cater to the middle class. The elite won’t be buying this car… they’ll still be buying their Mercedes, Lexus, and Hummers. Don’t snub your base, GM. We’ll snub you back if you threaten our pocketbooks.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

After reading this article tonight …

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2008/04/12/mfplug112.xml&page=1

… it sounds like the Volt might look more like the Toyota Hybrid X concept car:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Toyota+Hybrid-X&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

Since the above article mentions that …

“the Volt will be a five-door hatchback, based on the pressed steel underbody architecture of the replacement for the Vauxhall Astra, or Delta platform”

… I suppose you might could visualize the Volt looking like a cross between the sleek, aerodynamic Toyota Hybrid X and Vauxhall Astra.

http://www.whatcar.co.uk/car-review-pictures.aspx?RT=644

The article also said this …

“The dimensions are Astra, but the closed grille, heavily rounded front, low side skirts and high boot lid with its pronounced spoiler are designed to allow it to slip through the air and also endow it with a distinctive appearance.”

Hmmm. That’s what makes me think that the Volt could look similar to the Toyota Hybrid X. That body shape probably has very good aerodynamic drag … and it is also a hatchback design. This hatchback design for the rear end might be what we’re going to see more in the future. Good aerodynamic drag numbers could get you up to 6 extra miles of all electric driving.

http://evenements.caradisiac.com/salon-geneve/IMG/jpg/Toyota_Hybrid_X_Concept_8.jpg

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2007/2007-Toyota-Hybrid-X-Side-1024×768.jpg

Some of these new electric car designs might start to look a bit like Lamborghinis … for very PRACTICAL reasons. That’s cool with me.

http://www.thesupercars.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/lamborghini-reventon.jpg

I just want to make sure that GM doesn’t make the Volt look TOO nerdy … the EV1 springs to mind. We are going to love the new E-Flex powertrain, but … please GM, make sure the exterior looks good too. I want this car to be a smash hit for all sorts of reasons …. besides just saving money on gas, the environment, “peak oil” anxieties, energy security, the Middle East mess, etc.

I want to see it become “a cool looking car” that all the college students want to get … even if they don’t realize how awesome and revolutionary all the technology under the hood is.

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Tagamet Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 9:37 pm

Please, Please, PLEASE not like the Toy Hybrid X ! (finishing major wretch)
The mini-Lamborgini is kinda nice though.

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Tagamet Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

I think I just discovered the limit of ugly that would keep me out of a Volt. I didn’t think there was such a point.

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doggydogworld Says:
April 11th, 2008 at 8:51 am

#174 Al, generator vendors have figured it out a lot better than you. Commercial generators are designed for 24×7 operation (e.g. 100k hour life) at the lowest cost. Weight is not a factor. They make generous use of cast iron and other durable, cheap but heavy components. If you try to sell a commercial generator which saves weight by using expensive rare earth magnets, aluminum components and a 2000 hour service life you will go bankrupt in no time.

Airliner generators inhabit the opposite extreme. Current products weigh around 1 kg/kW (vs. my 2 kg/kW Volt estimate) and efforts are in place to hit 0.5 kg/kW. Such extreme light weight units cost too much for automotive use, though.

“It appears the ICE/Gen set does not exist yet.”

As I just described, it exists today in the Prius. My data points do not come from Wikipedia, but an ORNL teardown:

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/922327-5ktfCi/922327.PDF

“GM said the EV1 was running them $80K per copy with no ICE.”

No ICE but more batteries and extremely limited production quantities. I’d also like to see you document this quote.

“Miles XS500 gets closer by the day as does Aptera.”

I hope they all make it, but the failure rate of obscure, underfunded vehicle startups is roughly 100%.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
April 11th, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Check out the most aerodynamic cars of all time …

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2978/article.html

The EV-1 had a drag coefficient of 0.195. Hmmm. Maybe GM does know what they are doing when it comes to aerodynamics. I hear GM has a world class wind tunnel available they’ve been using for the Volt. They should use it a LOT and get that exterior as good as they can get it.

Lets just hope GM makes a good compromise between aerodynamics and the design looks of the car. It needs to LOOK COOL and appealing to as many people as possible with this first E-REV car. I gotta keep repeating it. I hope GM designers really do read this blog. Make SURE that Volt 1.0 is super successful so that there will be PLENTY of other E-REVs coming after it in future years that have all kinds of designs that particular people might prefer.

I would settle for a 0.25 drag coefficient for Volt 1.0 if the car ends up looking cool to most people. The Prius is 0.26. Gotta outdo the Prius a little on drag coefficient you know. Good for marketing if you can outdo the Prius everywhere possible since it is a popular car already.

Some people like those ultra futuristic concept looking cars. GM could come out with those E-REVs in 2011/2012 perhaps. Here’s one by Mercedes that has an excellent drag coeffcient. They designed is using the boxfish as inspiration. Modeling a fish apparently worked because it has a drag coefficient of 0.19 just like the EV-1.

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/auto/mercedes-benz-bionic-car-gallery.asp

http://www.freedom-adventures.com/a/lrg/Boxfish.jpg

http://www.auto-innovations.com/site/images5b/VoitureConso01.jpg

http://www.popsci.com/aerodynamic/article/2005-08/fish-inspired-car

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jason Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 9:37 am

I have to say that the changes to the front end and the height have disappointed me, it looks like the front tires have moved back somewhat too (I assume as a result of the front end changes).

With the raised top I feel like I am looking at a 1980 ford Mustang. And those tires look tiny! For as much as this vehicle will cost put some decent tires on it!

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fixerdo Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 11:59 am

Get look but of course someone is going to screw it up and not allow the kind of styling that will attract real car lovers.

The only problem I have is how the rear of the car looks.
Its too squat looking.

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fixerdo Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

I meant ” Great Look “. Oops.

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fixerdo Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Why do we have these people that don’t have any styling sense, make decisions about the look of a car.

The initial look of the Volt is great. Just give the rear of the car the same styling look of the rest of the car and then you’ll have a truly awesome looking car. The rear ” squat ” look is odd.

That’s what we want to drive in. Great looking cars. Not corporate committee chosen crap.

Volt is not a hybrid. Its the only true electric car that happens to have a battery charger inside the vehicle.

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Carol Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

I’m looking forward to having more electric options on the market. I’ve never bought a new vehicle, but would be willing to buy a Volt or similar to support the technology. However, $30,000 is out of my league. I’ve been following the ZENN/EESTOR story, and it’s hard not to be skeptical. I live in BC Canada, ZENN is a Canadian company, but nowhere in Canada is there legislation to allow electric vehicles on the roads. My understanding is that BC is the only province with the first level of leg required, but municipalities then have to create by-laws to allow. I don’t know how it works in the States.
I heard an interesting idea this week to deal with the range issue (altho don’t know how viable). Instead of getting gas at stations while on a trip, people could pick up a full charged battery, and leave the one in their car. ?
Thanks for all the info…..

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jamie Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

Tom, #25

51 MPG

$189.00 PER MONTH

I bought one. Honda Civic Hybrid. Now can GM match that?

I still want to shop and compare when the Chevy Volt hits the market though. So at least I will have something to compare it to.

(Quote)
CM Says:
April 13th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

#171 Al: I think you misunderstood, the “conversion loss” I mentioned wasn’t including the efficiency of the IC engine itself, but rather the loss in converting mechanical power into electrical power, then back again at the wheels. Most of my information came from the Tesla Motors website, Wikipedia, and various other sources.

Rectification is unlikely to “eat” 70% going from AC to DC. Checking Wikipedia under “rectifier”, I find that the peak voltage drop for a silicon diode is 0.7 volts, two diodes in a bridge rectifier would be a 1.4 volt drop. I’m not sure what voltage the Volt will be using, but even at a modest 240 volts AC the rectifier operates at over 99% efficiency, less than 1% loss! Now if you were to rectify a mere 2.8 volts AC, the efficiency is only 50% due to voltage drop, but somehow I don’t think that would be useful to power an electric car! Hmm, maybe you were confusing it with some older less efficient rectifier, but I’m not aware of any that are that inefficient.

The 33% figure you quote from Capstone includes both turbine efficiency and generator efficiency, but not “motor to wheel”, adding that in would drop it to about 31%, still well above the efficiency of a typical non-hybrid.

Now figuring an overall “Tank to Wheel” efficiency comparison between non-hybid petrol cars and electric hybrids gets a bit more complicated. Both types have thermodynamic losses in the IC engine. The electric hybrid has conversion losses not seen in non-hybrids, but series and split path hybrids can take advantage of several energy saving efficiency boosting techniques not available in non-hybrids, such as: Regenerative braking, Engine shutoff/autostart, low speed electric only operation, Atkinson/Miller cycle IC engines, and keeping IC engine speed near optimum regardless of road speed. Also, non-hybrid automatic transmission cars have torque converter losses not found in Series or Split Path hybrids. The result is higher overall efficiency for hybrids, and the real proof is in the on-road performance. It really is possible to get 45 to 55 mpg with reasonably good driving, as more than a few Prius drivers can tell you. While the fuel efficiency of a series hybrid like the Volt may turn out to be slightly less, it will still be well above the efficiency of a non-hybrid.

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CM Says:
April 13th, 2008 at 11:54 pm

#173 Paul: GM is likely to use AC induction motors for the Volt, as they have experience with them, they are brushless, reliable, high efficiency, and cost slightly less than brushless permenent magnet synchronous motors.

#185 Carol: The Canadian government doesn’t allow low speed “neighborhood electric vehicles” on the hiways, as their maximum speed is only 35 to 40 mph, and they don’t meet the same safety requirements of faster vehicles. Some Canadian cities are allowing NEVs on residential streets with speed limits of 35 mph or less. An electric car capable of freeway speeds and meeting full safety standards are allowed on all roads.

The idea of a swappable battery is a common one. There are some technical details to work out, the batteries would have to be leased from the battery swap company, and it is not entirely clear if the economics works out. Project Better Place is trying to develop a swappable battery pack system, along with public recharge stations.
http://www.projectbetterplace.com/

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terri voneye Says:
April 20th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Have they considerd a couple of tubes that are hooked to a couple of small wind turbine generators to assist in charging the batteries on the highway, so the motor may not have to run so much for better gas MPG.

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DD Says:
April 20th, 2008 at 11:07 pm

I was somewhat disappointed to learn and see the actual photos of the new Chevy Volt (via Yahoo news/Internet) that this vehicle has been displayed at the 2008 China Auto Show this past weekend! Guess you don’t have to guess anymore…

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Production Volt Exterior Design and Appearance: When Will We See it All?

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