Volt Will Charge at Both 110V and 220V: Half of Range Charge Within an Hour
I arrived OK in Michigan, and on this first night had the chance to speak to a wide range of people involved in the Chevy Volt.
At tonight’s reception, I caught up with Frank Weber, the Volt’s vehicle line executive. At Volt Nation he had mentioned that the Volt will have a smart charging capacity, meaning it would recognize and accept either 110V or 220V input. I followed up with him on this.
He clarified that the car does indeed have a smart charger and it will be in the U.S. model. The car will recognize if the electrical input is 110 volts or 220 volts, as the latter is already found in many homes and if not could be easily installed in one’s garage.
Per Frank, "You need this, if the guy in his house has a 220, at some point he could be in a place where there is only 110, so he wants this flexibility for this car, "…."This is what we are currently implementing, a flexible charger for the car."
"It’s like your notebook charger 100 to 200 volts, although in this case you will be charging kilowatts."
Asked if using 220 volt input would cut the Volt’s charge time to 3 hours, Weber said
"I think we will be able to do something below three".."this is an important piece because at 220 volts we will be in a position where within an hour you might be already have half of your range pumped into the battery".."those batteries have this behavior where the first half is faster than the second."
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April 2nd, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Lyle, do you ever pinch yourself and make sure this is all really happening?
What a cool experience.
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Although I am pleased with what Project Better Place is doing, quick charging is the future.
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Lyle,
Did they, in fact, freeze the Volt design as expected? And, what exactly was “frozen” about the design? Was it just the exterior look and geometry, or was it the entire e-flex platform and all the details about HVAC, steering, braking, motors, batteries, motor controllers, etc?
I have heard engineering project completion expressed as “percent of released drawings”. In other words, if the Volt program will require 8,000 engineering drawings, then you can say that the engineering work is “half” done if 4,000 of those drawings are complete. In the era of 3D computer aided modeling, it might be percentage of assemblies or models, etc.
Any new date for the mules?
Do you have the impression that suppliers are identified and selected for all the other pieces of the car?
When will work at the assembly factory actually begin in terms of preparing for the car to be assembled? Is the factory still the one in Detroit?
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:27 pm
MetrologyFirst,
I just read the latest Scientific American article on time meaurement at NIST. You also probably have to pinch yourself to make sure all that is really happening.
GSP
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Well, that answers all my questions about recharge speed using 220. Around an hour for half recharge indicates flow of a
bit less than 20 amps, for the first hour only. Still certainly worth
the small effort to run a ten foot piece of EMT from my service panel
on the garage wall to the front of my parking space with a 220 outlet.
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Lyle -
Glad to hear of your safe arrival & productive discussions this evening! Frank Weber really does remind me of Werner von Braun (who I knew fairly well). He’s got the same energy, intelligence and communicative skills as von Braun! Unfortunately, I didn’t have a chance to speak with Frank at Volt Nation, but I hope to in the future.
CHECK YOUR EMAIL FOR THE “LUTZ LIST”, NOW RE-RANKED IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE THANKS TO OUR DILIGENT MEMBERS!
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Good info. I was thinking of asking what max amps they were shooting for. So 30A circuit will be fine for 220V, what about 120V? What will max amps capability be for 120V charging? Will you need 2 cords or will there be a plug adapter, so one cord will work on 120 & 220?
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:04 pm
I thought we already learned from the volt nation meetup that it could smartly accept 110 or 220? In any case, how many phases if 220?
By the way, folks should be happy to know that the WWF (World Wide Fund for Nature) just repleased their online book that strongly endources plug-in’s and does mention GM and the Volt.
See http://panda.org/index.cfm?uNewsID=129321
I do recommend the “full report”, while 200 pages you can skip several of the chapters. It gives a great consilidated summary of all the issues and arguments, well-to-wheel comparisions, a great summary of the case against the hydrogen hoax, etc.
Something new I did learn is that GM had a prototype plug-in hybrid back in 1969 called the XP-883. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_XP-883
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:10 pm
This is big news! We had discussed this several times on this board. I thought it would not happen until version 2 or 3. Good job GM. We love the work you are doing!
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Anyone interested in the FINAL “Lutz List” with all questions ranked in order of importance by our own intrepid members will find it at…..
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1387#post1387
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Just think ahead 10 years, projecting the battery improvement curve forward. The battery will be less than half the price. The car will thus be much cheaper. Sales volume will rise, generate economies of scale and make the car even cheaper. As volume rises, more infrastructure is built to support recharging at work and places of business. This increases the electric range and value proposition for the car. Thus more volume and the cycle continues.
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:31 pm
240 Volts is OK with me as well. I can run it anytime. We will need to know what plug design they are going to use….
Wouldn’t the charger cord for 240 V have to be a larger gauge cable?
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Outstanding. I am looking forward to putting down my deposit of $10,000. GM, I’m number 6,894 on the Waiting List if the list is honored at this site. Hope so.
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:29 pm
yaay!!!!! I can charge it nearly anywhere! Thank you, GM.
…now hurry up and build it…
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Good info Lyle! I second the pinching thing. You started a website, and now you’re probably THE man outside of GM when it comes to information on the Volt.
The Smartcharger shouldn’t be too much of a surprise. It’s not too difficult to make a unit that will accept 110-220V input. The critical part will be how the charger controls the available current, and how the battery can take it to replenish its charge.
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:30 pm
I think I’m number, like, 7,400 something…
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Hey #8, 220/240v is (along with 120v) single phase. You get 3 phase with 208, 277, and 480v. The problem with those is, your looking for a big light bill. Where I live, they consider 3 phase commercial, and that’s at least $100 more per month.
Also, I asked Nasaman the other day about the recharge values if we had a battery that would do 300 miles.
Instead Nasaman, if we had this battery that would do 40 miles on a charge, and to be realistic about the whole 3 phase thing, though not many of us would do such a feat..
A 40 mile battery being recharged from 99.99999% state of discharge, what would the time, and current draw be from 120, 220, 277, and 480? I know the higher the voltage, typically works lower the amprage, but I was never any good with math. (or spelling)
The only way I see us being able to do quick (10 min or less) charging is 480v, at around 200-250 amps. The cables would be something huge, and did somebody say they want them flexable?
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:32 am
“At 240V you might get half the charge in an hour.” Now this is good news since on many days I might very well need this. This is not unlike a lot of other charging devices, I just wasn’t sure the Volt would be able to do it. What a difference that would make some weeks.
Now if Lyle could just snap that photo of the frozen design
.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:38 am
#13 JBFALASKA
#16 firefly
I wouldn’t get my hopes up about the non-binding waiting list position. I think the geographic rollout will more likely determine who gets the first Volts. For example, if you are #50 on the waiting list, but you live in Prarie Center, Nebraska, I doubt you’ll get Volt 1.0.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:08 am
The NEC, National Electrical Code, does not permit a 15A or 20A 120-volt receptacle to supply 240-volts as well. There will be 2 receptacles required and two cords or somekind of adapter from GM. Kw cost should be roughly the same for a “full” charge. Its the wiring method, ampacity of branch circuit and availability of the distribution system that may or may not allow someone to use the 240-volt feature, either way this is all good.
April 3rd, 2008 at 5:07 am
#20 wirenutjd
I asked the question several weeks ago about the cost of 120 vs. 220 recharge and got several different answers. So then is this statement accurate: It will be faster to recharge at 220v but not necessarily cheaper.
April 3rd, 2008 at 5:55 am
Great work Lyle, & nasaman you too.
#20 You will charge about twice as fast going to 240 v, Higher voltages do reduce line leakage, you should save a couple of cents for a full charge, dependent on cable length and KWh charges.
I would expect the Volt to come with one cable rated for 240 v and an adaptor for 120 v being the cheapest option.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:38 am
Nasaman,
The only question I want answered, because ever other question is moot out of this context:
“Bottom Line to the customer, HOW MUCH IS IT?”
I think everyone (and yourself) knows thats the big one, I guess maybe thats why it wasn’t on the list? It’s assumed, lol.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:44 am
So I take it the charging managment system will regulate the load intake automatically when sensing 120v vs 240v plugin … and would its sensing be controlled by which adapter is used when plugged in?
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:58 am
Pounds #24:
I suppose they could do it either way - do a manual check of which cord is plugged into the car, or sense the voltage input. But I would think that checking which cord is plugged in could cause a possible point of failure in the future, as it would have to have some type of a switch that trips when the cord is pluggd in. So I would think that electronic voltage sensing as part of the charger system would make more sense.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:24 am
Fast charging would be great! Maybe an external transformer you could buy as an option? The old stove has a 50 Amp breaker at my house, why should the car get less? It makes way more sense to pull into a filling station along the way than run a generator. I would be all for pulling the generator out for a lot more batteries. A commercially available Marine diesel generator has theses specs:
* 1 Year / 1,000 Hour Limited Warranty (Whichever comes first)
* Dimensions (L x W x H - height does not include muffler): 54″ x 26.5″ x 35″
* 45 KW
* Weight (Pounds): 1330
* Governor: Mechanical Governor
* Single Phase
How many more KWh and range could you get for this 1300 lb?
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:27 am
Good update, thanks Lyle.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:29 am
It would be unwise for GM to come out with a propriety plug and cord to handle both 120v and 240v. If GM did, it would greatly limit the availability of places to plug-in. Being I have many years of experience in this field, I know the solution is very simple. I’m sure the electrical engineers at GM see this as not being a problem. The solution is rather simple. Stick with the Electrical National Code and use only.one cord for both voltages..Make this cord with a standard 240v plug. If the voltage source is 240v, you would simple plug it in. Now, If the voltage source is 120v, then you would simple plug a 240v to 120v adapter to accommodate the 120v outlet (voltage source). Of course, standard GFI (ground fault interrupter) would be required - all standard off the shelf stuff. Cost would be kept to a minimum. for GM and the consumers.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:42 am
Little hints about what Lyle is learning:
General Motors has convened a special press junket in Detroit to give selected members of the media a sneak peak at its progress on the Volt and related E-Flex drive system. Thursday the invited guests will tour GM’s Visualization Center, Battery Lab, Aero Lab and E-Flex Studio, where they will be treated to a teaser look at parts of the clay model of the production Volt, including a full view of its interior. No photos will be allowed, so don’t expect any advanced views of what the car will look like until the company is ready for the official unveiling.
However, I was able to learn some tantalizing details from conversations with program managers during an evening reception in Rochester, Michigan the night before. Here’s some of what I picked up.
* The coefficient of drag on the car has been improved some 30% over the original concept car pictured above at the Shanghai Auto Show. It is now comparable to the current model Toyota Prius.
* 95% of the power train has now been sourced to suppliers, while only about 10% of the chassis has been sourced, but this is typical for any new car program, GM managers assure.
* The car will have electric brakes, electric steering and an electric air conditioner compressor.
* The 16kW battery pack holds the energy equivalent to just 1 gallon of gasoline
* The very tight technical specifications of the battery have remained essentially the same forcing a lot of innovations on the part of the battery partners: CPI and Continental/A123.
* Managing the internal temperature of the batteries is critical and will be handled by a liquid cooling system.
* The Volt’s engine/generator will use “pup” catalytic converters that are located near the exhaust manifolds as a strategy for handling cold-start emissions.
* The interior design will say this is an electric car, according to its designer
* Because there are only a handful of suppliers to provide many of the groundbreaking components, the cost of the car remains worrisome for GM managers. They are concerned that they will lose money on the project initially, while their suppliers will make a small profit, so this creates some tension during negotiations.
* There are various types of E-Flex/Volt development mules driving around in unidentified locations.
* Above all, the GM technical team exudes an obvious air of confidence in what they are aiming to achieve, though they admit that everyone is continuing to learn.
http://www.electriccarprogress.com/
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:59 am
This is a great development. I have been really down on the Volt recently, and I am encouraged by the foresight that GM is exhibiting in using the smart charger. I will definitely have 220 run to my garage to be able to charge the battery faster.
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:03 am
Wouldn’t it be great if you could simply pull into the garage or driveway and the recharging process would start automatically WIRELESSLY? That might be a possibility in 5-10 years. Who knows?
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=emerging08&id=20248
http://www.technologyreview.com/player/08/03/MagTR10Soljacic/1.aspx
It’s always better to not have to rely on people to remember to do things … even simple things like plugging in the car. People are busy and juggling various tasks on their to-do list already. People forget to plug in their cell phones or swap batteries all the time. This could be more important than you think. It would make sure that IC engine on your Volt comes on as little as possible.
You could have specific frequencies randomly assigned to your car and wireless charger unit and it could quick charge your car just as soon as you are in range of it.
Ideally, you would have a big battery (hopefully they’ll be cheap someday) in the garage that pulls electricity off the grid at night when it is cheaper. That way, you could quick charge your Volt from the garage battery ANYTIME at the same rates you would pay as if you charged the car directly from the wall socket at night.
That’s why I’m hoping there’s some huge breakthroughs in electricity storage in general … like ultracapacitors or silicon nanowire lithium ion batteries …. for the electric utilities’ use and for the home.
If the batteries are too expensive for each homeowner, maybe the electric utilities could have big electricity storage units distributed on a “per neighborhood” basis … kind of like the cable companies uses routers and switches for high speed internet. Maybe one outlet in the house could be wired to go to that “neighborhood battery”. If 5 minute quick charging batteries are in everyone’s car someday this is going to be important. There would be LOTS of voltage coming off the grid at one time if everyone plugs in at 5-6 pm when they get home from work. You can’t force people to charge at a particular time of day. I’m sure the electric utilities are thinking about these things for the electric cars that are coming. They better be. Right now.
The more the electric utilities can inexpensively store and transfer electricity all over the country like the internet the better. They should do whatever is the most efficient and flexible and keeps them from having to build more huge power plants to deal with peak loads … like at 5-6 pm in the summertime in LA. I hear the utilities fire up the old coal plants in the summertime when the grid starts to max out. Not good for the environment OR our electricity bills.
LA needs to phase out their coal plants as soon as possible. Get rid of that smog and the “ozone alerts”. The skies of LA might actually look crystal clear some day. Da Governator and the environmentalists in California will be happy campers.
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:07 am
Hey JBFAlaska….how did you find out your number on the wait list? I signed up last year but don’t know my number.
Anxious to see what GM says to Lyle and the media today!
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:15 am
If I forget to unplug my Volt when I drive off in the morning, how much damage will I incur?
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:31 am
# 33
I don’t believe you will be able to move the auto untill you unplug.
This will have a saftey feature built in for that reason !!
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:01 am
Concerning the plugin voltage identification/selection method; I would think the risk of a future switch recognition failure (or breakage) would be less risk and cost to the consumer than a logic system to recognize which voltage to charge to. Wouldn’t using the logic method require the three independent operating system criteria? This would be more expensive to add and repair would’nt it? Although it would provide the consumer with a friendlier window of repair time and still be able to charge up.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:04 am
Story in the Detroit News about the Volt……
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080403/AUTO01/804030340/1148/rss25
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:04 am
Tom M:
That’s actually a VERY good idea. GM should implement this. You should add that to the list of questions for Bob Lutz.
People have been known to drive off at gas stations with the pump nozzle still in the gas tank filler hole you know.
Highly flammable gas goes everywhere. That’s why the oil companies put in automatic shut off valves on their pumps.
GM should have some electronics that detect the extension cord being plugged in. When the person turns the key an LED light pops up and says you need to unplug before you can drive off. Without this, I can visualize a lot of those 3 prong extension cord metal pieces breaking off inside the Volt’s input plug. Not good. It could be expensive to fix it. It might be dangerous too. Who knows? GM needs to “think outside the box” and test all sorts of scenarios where problems could occur with the new plug in hybrids.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:20 am
>>>The only question I want answered, because every other question is moot out of this context: “Bottom Line to the customer, HOW MUCH IS IT?”<<<
Actually, this wound up as the FIRST question on the ranked “Lutz List”:
1) On Mar 5, Robert Babik of GM said in a CNN interview, “(the Volt) is expected to cost about the same as a typical Chevy compact sedan.” After reading this, I went to the Chevy website and & priced a fully-loaded Malibu LTZ 1LZ, which includes virtually every option available, like a 3.6LV6 (252 hp), 18″ alloy wheels, paddle shifters, etc, etc. The site gave me an MSRP of $27,445.00! So am I right in concluding that the MSRP for the base Volt should be about the same as a typical Chevy compact sedan???
For the remaining questions as YOU GUYS ranked them, go to…..
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1387#post1387
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:27 am
This all sounds great and I don’t mean to be a buzz kill here but how much will this thing cost? I could fly to the moon too… If I could only afford it. Anything over $30K will KILL this car for the MASS market.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:33 am
GSP #4:
The time and frequecy guys are setting the bar pretty high for the rest of us…..
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:34 am
Not to worry. I am sure with all the R&D going on… most of the “idot errors” have probably been accounted for…
I signed up in the first 500 but I don’t think a Volt will be coming to a dealer in Central Alberta Canada till 2011 or later even if GM had them out in late 2009..
Still want one… but mid 2011 is the deadline for me.. as my 07 Malibu Maxx with be over 250 K KMS on it and time to trade up…
GM… I am sure the mules are out… Lyle….. Send me a VOLT… as for the price…. let’s get our house in order and make it affordable to at least 50 % of the drivers out there…. 30 - 35 K is ok… 40 K will drop you into the 30 % of the drivers…
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:50 am
>I’m number 6,894 on the Waiting List if the list is honored at this site.
How did you find this out?
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:00 am
#37 nasaman
“So am I right in concluding that the MSRP for the base Volt should be about the same as a typical Chevy compact sedan???”
You are right based on what Robert Babik of GM said in a CNN interview on Mar 5. You are wrong based on Lutz’s price speculations. IMHO, the eventual price will be set “down the road” once many factors become clearer. GM’s eventual price will result from a business decision that balances short-term and long-term profits. After the EV-1 program and it’s popular legacy, making a viable Volt seems like it would be in GM’s best interest. Pricing the Volt “out of the market” is counter to that goal.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:02 am
#37 nasaman
Sorry, I just realized that was your question and not a new topic for discussion. I should not ahve posted my #41 post.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 am
Yeah I had a looksie at the final list. I think you sorta know what I am inferring though.
Number 1 is kinda a ‘whats the price’ question…but not really, it’s very ambiguous and pretty easy to skate out of. If Lutz has to answer this question –> “So am I right in concluding that the MSRP for the base Volt should be about the same as a typical Chevy compact sedan???”
He isn’t going to say anything about the price, he is going to just going to say, “No, at the end of the day it isn’t a typical Chevy”
…but at the end of the day, every little factoid, production note, styling & technology development is rendered useless without a monetary basis to judge it on.
Like this thread, it’s pretty cool it has 110 and 220 built in, half charge in a hour…but the coolness is related to the price. If the car is $30,000 its a ‘holy crap thats a fantastic feature,’ if it’s $50,000, my reaction is more like ‘thats what I expect for my money’
I guess thats why I seem blaise about most threads…my reaction to everything is, “yeah, but what’s the price…I’m pretty sure this new feature GM isn’t putting in for free”
Is this a feature I can opt out of? or is this another famous GM ‘package thing’…like oh you want power windows? Well you have to buy the ‘convienance package’ where you also buy heated seats, heated mirrors and it is only available if you first buy group 1SB.
If we had a solid price, then this type of article would be a ‘oh, thats cool’ moment.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:28 am
12 kWh is about the maximum recharge that can be conveniently supplied overnight at home (or at the in-laws) using ubiquitous 15A, 110V outlets while still taking advantage of low off-peak (11 pm to 7 am) power rates. 220 V charging capability is good. It will double this maximum recharge to 24 kWh, which is good for: quick recharges, Volts with a longer all-electric range (AER) and for larger vehicles, e.g., vans, that get 3 miles to the kWh compared to the Volt’s 5 miles per kWh. 24 kWh translates to a range of 72 and 120 miles for a van and a Volt, respectively.
Yes, I envisage Volt battery packs being made available for an AER from 25 to 100 miles depending on one’s typical daily mileage – commute plus local business travel. If it makes sense to run on batteries for 40 miles a day, then it makes just as much sense to run on batteries for 60 or 80 miles a day. Conversely, why should people with a 25-mile round trip commute be required to purchase batteries sufficient for a 40-mile AER?
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:39 am
#31 GM Volt Fan:
Just for the record, there are NO coal fired power plants in LA. We do get a lot of power from coal fired plants in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, thus cleverly exporting our pollution to the Grand Canyon and other points of interest. All of the power plants in the basin are fired by natural gas. Some of them used to be fired by oil, and some may still occasionally be in the winter when the air pollution is somewhat less.
Most of the air pollution you see in the LA basin comes from other sources - cars,diesel powered equipment of all kinds, oil refineries, cement plants, and all of the other manufacturing infrastructure of a modern megalopolis. Not to mention fireplaces, which have recently been outlawed for new construction. Our two giant ports are the largest single source of air pollution here.
Hopefully the Volt will be a useful step toward making the air here a bit less toxic. Exporting the pollution to other states is a bit of an issue however.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:39 am
#29 Dave B, Electric brakes – good news – this precludes no brakes because of hydraulic fluid boil on a steep hill descent. I do understand – regenerative braking has little friction brake heating – but electric brakes also solves the fully charged battery problem on a long steep hill descent.
Now Lyle, if someone could find out exactly how the cruise control will work – if there will be an accelerate and decelerate button that permits the holding of a last set speed to a very tight tolerance going up and down steep inclines and declines? Also will the decelerate button, decelerate at a constant rate or an exponential rate, time wise, using regenerative braking? I hope the answer is an exponential rate! For those of you long time readers, yes, I am still on the kick!
Keep on with the good work GM.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:46 am
#26 Al:
The size of the generator in the Volt will hardly be different than a small engine in a small car, like the Geo Metro or Honda Insight. We are not talking about a 1330 lb 45 kW marine generator. We’re talking a 150-200 lbs 52 kW engine. Replacing that weight with batteries would give you an extra ~15 miles of all-electric driving.
Basically, for the same weight as a large extra passenger, you’ll be able to drive 600 miles in a Volt instead of 50. Seems like a worthwhile trade-off to me.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:51 am
I agree with Statik, et al, that price has become the number one make or break issue.
Based on the NPR report I mentioned yesterday, I am resigned that the good old “first adopter” “dealer markup” system will be alive and well here. If Ford Escape hybrids ( a pretty weak piece, IMHO) are still drawing $5K “dealer markups” what, 4 or 5 years in?, I shudder to think what will happen with the vastly superior Volt.
Somebody said that the first 10,000 will easily sell for $60K each. I don’t doubt it. Fortunately, I can control my first adopter impulses pretty well when it comes to spending $40k for a car. So I will just wait until the feeding frenzy subsides to a tolerable level, even if I lose my place on the famous waiting list.
All of my highly optimistic urgings for deposits have taken a bit of a hit, needless to say.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
Deposits and your place on the list are all meaningless if GM takes the “limited release area” approach. This has me more disappointed than anything else. I WILL NOT buy a car that I am not guaranteed can be serviced by a dealer in my local area.
So as much as I think the Volt is THE car, I will be looking at all available options, if the Volt is not available by June, 2011 at the very latest……
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:17 am
#21
Here is an electric bill formula.
cost of bill = rate in dollars X Kw hours
rate in dollars = what your electric ultility is charging you.
ex: in Los Angeles it is .08 cents for 1Kw hour
Kw hours = how many watts you are using in an hour
ex: a 60 watt light bulb would be 60 watts divided by 1000 = .06 KW
OK, lets figure our bill for this 60 watt light bulb
cost of 60 watt light bulb = rate in dollars X Kw
cost = .08 cents X .06 (1 hour) = .0048 cents for every hour the 60 watt light bulb is “on”
GM Volt at 120-volt charge
cost = rate X Kw
cost = .08 X (120-volt X 20 amp)
cost = .08 X 2400 watts (2400 divided by 1000)
cost = .08 X 2.4
cost = .192 cents for every hour
GM volt will take overnight to charge, so
cost = .192 X 10 hours
cost = $1.92 for a “full” charge
GM volt at 240-volt charge
cost = rate X Kw
cost = .08 X (240-volt X 30 amp)
cost = .08 X 7200 watts (7200 divided by 1000)
cost = .08 X 7.2
cost = .576 cents for every hour
GM volt will take 3 hours to charge, so
cost = .576 X 3 hours
cost = $1.73 for a “full” but “quick” charge
cost at 3.5 hours is $2.02
so you can see how they are very close in cost.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:23 am
#50 wirenutjd:
You don’t have to do anything nearly so complicated. You just have to know that you put 8 kW into the Volt to charge it completely (to get its 16 kW battery from 30% to 80%). Any difference in charging costs between 120V and 240V will come down to various inefficiencies in power transmission and maybe the chemistry of the battery, but the differences will likely be very very small.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:30 am
yes. I know, but I was showing another how to calculate it and I have read some bogus calcs on this blog before, but thanks, John
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:45 am
Hey, Dave B woke up earlier than me and posted the link to http://www.electriccarprogress.com/ with some spoilers from the press junket Lyle is at. Those are some sweet spoilers! I’m surprised no one is excited about the fact that GM has mules on the road!!!
The reason I was asking if the Volt would also be able to charge with 3 phase power (at the higher voltages) is not for being able to charge even faster at home (as Adam mentions, you aren’t going to find that residential)… but being able to charge faster such as future special charging stations at the mall, grocery store, etc. If 100,000 Volts are on the road within a couple years after launch, especially with them being concentrated in some geographic areas due to the planned roll out, if the car supported it, others may build such charging stations.
It sounds obvious though that 3 phase would require a different plug/cable on the car for the extra conductor(s). So it doesn’t sound like this will be an option if there will be only a single plug on the car.
Though I’m curious, if 3 phase was an option, how much more juice can be pumped at 208V 3 phase vs. 1 phase 220V?
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:59 am
If you are planning on running wire for an outside receptacle then you might like to consider using 3 wire. That way you can have 115v and 230v receptacles available, with a GFI breaker in the main panel.
Charge your Volt with 230v but use 115v for the electric lawn mower (if so be careful to fit a 20A rated 115v receptacle). Or ask electrician or consult NEC.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I wonder if the mules driving around undisclosed locations make fake engine sounds. Otherwise a Malibu driving around silently is going to be suspicious. Not sure that GM cares.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
FYI…. I was in the first 500 to register ….. but I don’t expect a VOLT to arrive in Central Alberta, Canada till 2011 even if GM puts the VOLT out in late 2009… Let’s hope GM has a look at the order which people signed up and maybe expedite something to the large dealers closest to some of us…..
GM … Send me a VOLT… My 07 MAXX will have over 250k KMs by 2011 and will need to be replaced…. 30 - 35 K for a price will put the Car in approximate 50 % - 60 % of Canadians but 40K+ will cause it to drop to 40 % or less. Let’s go for the volume !
Call me when I can pick one up Lyle……. sooner is better than later !!
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Why does everyone want fast charging? 40 miles a day is a lot. Double that if you charge at work.
Why pay $200 to have an electrician install a 220v outdoor rated outlet in your garage? Why pay an extra $50 for the extension cord? How often would most people actually use the fast charge capability? How would fast charging affect the grid once E-REVs go mainstream?
Maybe this is something like people who want a 4GHz processor to surf the web…
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:35 pm
#54
that would be a NEC code violation. a 240-volt branch circuit shall not supply line-to-neutral loads. You would need 4 wires plus an equipment grounding conductor. 2 for the 240 volt branch circuit and 2 for the 120-volt branch circuit.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
#47 Tom,
You’re right about engine weight, the Insight’s 50 kW ICE was 60 kg, I think. But a full gas tank is another 40 kg, so you’re arguably at 100 kg total. That’s about 10 kWh worth of A123 cells, with 5 kWh usable for an extra 25 mile range. You might save $4-5k removing the ICE/generator but the extra batteries are $6k, so a slight increase in cost.
The choice is thus 65 mile range EV vs. 600 mile range EREV. Easy choice for 95% of US customers.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Jeff M #53:
I have to tell you that the thought of my wife plugging in a three phase cable in the parking lot of the grocery store during a snow or rain storm, causes me some concern…………….
I better make sure all her insurance policies are paid up!!!
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Supposedly news is out that GM may be buying back Cobasys from Chevron! I assume that means they get the NiMH patent back as well!
I can’t find anything official on that, though Dave M in a comment to http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=17898 said the Oakland press reported it on March 28th 2008.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
#56 Dave G
I drive about 45 miles one way to work so using the ICE will be a daily occurrence for me. Having that ability to quick charge would allow me to charge while at work to drive electric only home or be able to drive electric if I go out for some lunch. Otherwise, the battery would be depleted for over 50% of my driving. So unless that 40 mile range becomes 100+ miles I would love a quick charge feature. I drive over 100 miles a day and spend over $400 a month in gas. That quick charge feature would allow me to charge much more often so I can use less gas and save money.
Not to mention, installing 220V in your garage is very simple and I’m sure you would be able to do it if you did some research first.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Just found this on CNN.
GM road-tests batteries for Volt electric car
Lithium-ion batteries being put into specially-equipped sedans for driving tests.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/03/autos/bc.na.fin.com.us.gm.volt/index.htm?cnn=yes
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:48 pm
#61 ksuhwail,
I still don’t get it. You drive 45 miles one way to work, so charging at work would be really beneficial for you. But most people work for 8 hours or more. What’s the advantage of 220v charging at work over 110v charging at work?
If you go out for lunch, how far will you go? Most people only go 2-3 miles for lunch. With regular 110v charging you’ll get about 20 miles in the first 2 hours of charging. So if you plug in to 110v after you get back from lunch, you should have a full 40 miles of charge by the end of the day, assuming you’re at work 8-hours or more.
What’s the advantage of 220v charging?
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Ksuhwail
You will probably have difficulty getting a 220V outlet at an office but I believe they said recharging from 120V will take 3-4 hours so this should be a problem for workplace charging.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Rashiid Amul @ 62,
Testing batteries in the Malibu? that is some interesting stuff. Wonder how many packs? Wonder how many are humming around town? Wonder if its in pure EV mode?
Everyone in Detroit, be on on the lookout for a Malibu that doesn’t make any noise!
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:21 pm
doggydogworld & Tom
Don’t for get about the generator motor, engine cooling, etc. Removing the ICE genset and peripheral equipment would probably remove more weight than the 10KWh additional battery capacity would add. Also, adding 10KWh would duble the usable capacity if the 30% discharge limit is more of a performance limitation than battery life thus 4KWh being the actual lower limit. Charge cycle would then be 4KWh - 21KWh (15% - 80%). This would still not satisfy a large portion of the market, but every 1% is roughly 160,000 vehicles/year. So, with virtually no competition this seems like a viable market as an option for the Volt.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I work in a small engineering company (about 250 engineers) where we have both 120 and 220 available so I am going to try to push for some parking lot charging stations once these cars get on the road.
#63, #64
You both have good points. I see the quick charge as a benifit if I am going between numerous job sites. I have numerous friends that work for Rockwell Automation and drive between job sites. This would be very helpful.
I just know that if I am driving 100+ miles a day (mostly highway at speeds 70-80mph) I would feel like I’m gonna kill that little ICE and would want to keep my battery charged as much as possible.
However, if charging from 120 will only take 3-4 hours I can see how that would be more than adequate for 90% of people.
I wonder what the top speed the volt will have and how long it can sustain a constant 80mph drive. Every few months I drive from Cleveland to Elmira, NY which is about 4+ hrs of 80mph driving. How will the volt hold up to that? Granted, thats not what the normal person has to drive.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Re: #3 and #29
See the following link for more hints of what Lyle is learning.
http://www.reliableplant.com/article.asp?pagetitle=GM%20makes%20progress%20on%20advanced%20lithium-ion%20batteries&articleid=11315
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:49 pm
#67
You consider (250) engineers a small engineering company??? I work in a small engineering company too–(6) engineers.
Regarding the 220 V charging, and maybe this has been addressed already somewhere, but I am just wondering if there is a durability sacrifice on the batteries if they are charged at 220 vs. 120 Volts over the life of the system?
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
240-volt is 3-4 hours, 120-volt is at least twice that 8-10 hours, why is everybody saying 120 in 3 hours?
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Re: #3. O.Jeff
You asked: “Any new date for the mules?”
Check this link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120723802064386655.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:01 pm
#67, ksuhwail:
A design goal of the Volt from the beginning is to sustain 100 mph. So, given that wind resistance increases exponentially, 80 mph will be no problem at all.
Of course this is unrelated to top speed. No idea what the Volt’s top speed will be but the EV-1 had a top speed of 186 mph (?) with the governor disabled.
April 3rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
#66 Koz,
I’m pretty sure the 60 kg includes all engine-related peripherals (oil pump, etc.). It wouldn’t include peripherals like A/C compressor, power brake pump, etc. but you’d still need those. As for cooling, the Volt batteries are also liquid cooled so I figure it’s a wash. You’re right a larger pack runs at a lower discharge rate and thus can sustain a higher DOD. Maybe 80-20 instead of 80-30. That’d put range for the 26 kWh pack at 78 miles instead of my 65. I still say that’s way too limited for consumers. Startups building such cars always seem to fail.
#72 Tom
The 183 mph EV1 had a lot of other mods. They taped up the seams and put a cone on the back. They also re-geared it so power was available at the top end (of course this means low end torque was vastly diminished, and 0-60 took forever). I think there were also battery/controller mods, but I don’t have any details.
April 3rd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
#31 GM Volt Fan
“It’s always better to not have to rely on people to remember to do things … even simple things like plugging in the car. People are busy and juggling various tasks on their to-do list already. People forget to plug in their cell phones or swap batteries all the time.”
If these people can’t even remember to plug the Volt in when they come home to recharge it, they should not buy the VOLT.
You can’t make everything idiot proof from an idiot.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I’ve been toying with the idea of a portable solar awning which could be deployed over the vehicle when parked. This unit could power a 120V inverter but would be limited in output power. The question to GM would be: Does/could the planned Li-Ion charging regime/charger architecture have the flexibility to reduce the charger input power requirements based upon the input voltage folding back or could this be a selectable mode. On a sunny Florida day, a good portion of the 8kW-hr energy requirement could be supplied by a 10 square meter PV array during a work day.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Good new for increased charging speed. Although, according to the picture above, looks like you will need a “GM” brand electrical cable instead of off the shelf. If you loose it, that will cost you another $200 instead of $3.95. Oh, and forget about changing it anywhere- unless you have multiple cables, as an optional upgrade of course ($$). When is GM going to design and build for the people, and not GM?
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:36 pm
GM Volt Fan - I agree with you that we should have wireless electricity…but Tesla, (the man not the car) did not prevail and we got stuck with Edison’s wires….but I digress.
Where are you guys getting these low overnight rates? I pay a flat rate for kwh fixed for the next two years. I don’t see the advantage to fast charging.
Also, if you forget to plug in the Volt, no big deal, you are just going to burn a gallon of gasoline on that day.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Using three phase is mention in this blog and I can not help but mention, three phase is not offered to residential homes.It is used mostly in industries and with double the voltage.A three phase electric motor to power the wheels would be a good choice because of it’s efficiency and cost.Three phase current is mostly only used by industries and with double the voltage, Even with all the safeties, 240v is still very dangerous, The current available in homes is single phase 120v and 240v. You can be rest assured that’s what GM is going to use…..there is not much choice because of safety and availability.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:01 am
There is a lot of confusion on this site about voltages and current. Residential service in the US is almost universally 120/240 VAC (That’s volts alternating current.) This voltage must be rectified to charge a battery which has only DC voltage.
Three phase AC voltages could be used at commercial sites to charge various systems and multiple cars. Three phase voltage is available at any voltage desired and 120/208 Y or 120/240 delta are standard industry banks. All that is way beside the point of a car named Volt.
240 VAC charging at your home will be desirable because of the reduced charging time - any losses saved will be minimal. There is nothing more dangerous about 240VAC than 120VAC. You can charge the car outside also not just in your garage. Does anybody know if this big battery pack will need venting of any kind?
Don’t any of you Voltiacs want to take your little hummer out after work?
April 4th, 2008 at 11:30 am
Talking about quick charging… an article yesterday about ZENN using EE-Stor’s ultracaps instead of batteries claiming 5 minute recharge to go 250 miles… see http://tinyurl.com/5lpnmw
April 4th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
This technology sounds really exciting, but how much are we saving to drive one?
If a current Prius gets 48 mpg (city), then it uses ,83 gallons of fuel to drive 40 miles. At $3.30/gallon the cost to drive 40 miles is $2.75 (.83 gal x $3.30). The cost of charging the volt in CA would be around $1.92 (from earlier post), The difference in cost to drive 40 miles would be $0.83 ($2.75 - $1.92) or $.021/mile. Based on a 12,000 mile year, this would yield a savings of about $249.00 per year, over driving a Prius. When the next generation of Prius Hybrid arrives, the mileage will undoubtably increase, closing the gap between the two.
In the end, it is better fuel economy vehicles that will save our planet and our pocket books, not an electric only vehicle. Am I missing the point here?
I have to admit that an all electric vehicle is a sexy approach to saving money and our planet, but I wonder how much we wil be saving our planet. The US imports much of it’s natural gas to burn in power plants (which increases it’s carbon footprint). Coal is a dirty fuel that also increase the carbon footprint as well. Hydro Electric power is a “clean” alternative, but has negatve effects on the evironment (increased salinity in watershed, reduced availability of water due to evaporation, etc.). Ethanol is a flawed approah and has already driven up the cost of corn. Beef price increase aren’t far behind (corn feed). In addition, corn uses a tremendous amount of water to grow, to raising this cash crop in more arrid areas will have an environmental impact as well.
Perhaps the answer is in recycling. Not as sexy, but using waste vegetable oil would recycle a product we are already using. Of course there may not be enough of it to satisfy demand. Another promising technology is using salt water for combustion. Now there is a resource that we seem to have an excess of (for now).
A final question: Has any body found studies that examine the effect of EMF (electro magnetic fields) on humans? I mean, is it safe to put my one year old daughter in the back seat of a Volt with a battery bank sitting underneath her?
Keep up the ggod work GM, you on the move - just not sure if we are heading in the right direction.
April 4th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
84 Bob K. In reverse order.
Make sure your daughter NEVER has a MRI scan in a hospital, because they do EMF on a huge scale! Besides the battery is DC, so very week EMF.
Waste Vege oil should supply about 4-5% of transport needs. Not enough! I agree with you on Ethanol. It is better, and more efficient, to generate electricity from a gallon of diesel, than burn it in the ICE directly. Same with coal.
You make good points about the Prius, except most trips are under 40 miles so gas will be rarely needed. Anyway, not everyone wants to drive a Prius. Choice is good.