Comments on: A Chat with Project Better Place Investor, Michael Granoff http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/ Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:55:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Shawn Marshall http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-35278 Shawn Marshall Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:52:33 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-35278 Scuse please. To extend range give me a trailer with an ICE and Battery pack so I can go full scale if and when I want. Should cut the price a lot and give me options for sizing the trailer. The trailer could attach in a rigid way that would give essentially me a six wheeler with just an up and down freedom of motion for the trailer. I'm an optimist- I believe some smart company will do it. They could lease range extending trailers if they want. It's a transformer in a way. Scuse please. To extend range give me a trailer with an ICE and Battery pack so I can go full scale if and when I want. Should cut the price a lot and give me options for sizing the trailer. The trailer could attach in a rigid way that would give essentially me a six wheeler with just an up and down freedom of motion for the trailer.
I’m an optimist- I believe some smart company will do it. They could lease range extending trailers if they want. It’s a transformer in a way.

]]> By: Shawn Marshall http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-35277 Shawn Marshall Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:46:35 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-35277 I'd like to have a Vega/Volt with a 20 mi. range for my local trips. I’d like to have a Vega/Volt with a 20 mi. range for my local trips.

]]> By: Neutron Flux http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-35214 Neutron Flux Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:52:32 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-35214 Some may call this car a toy but based on things read, it will be in production this year with a price under 20K when sold in the US. Range 111 miles, 62 MPH max speed, battery would be leased for around $150.00/month. What is it : Think City. Would not count on any coming to US any time soon though based on production numbers. If Volt is 35-40K & one of these or the Ox is available for sub 20K it will become the mainstream for most long before Volt & has recharge option of up to 80% < 1 Hour and uses A123 batteries. Google Think City if interested. The Aptera looks nice too excepting it is currently a two seater but would defiantely turn heads and has a series hybrid option & looks to be produced before the Volt in Carlsbad Ca. I like the Volt but if GM can't get its price down there are other options for those who want to get us off oil ASAP. GM is not the only show in town. Some may call this car a toy but based on things read, it will be in production this year with a price under 20K when sold in the US. Range 111 miles, 62 MPH max speed, battery would be leased for around $150.00/month. What is it : Think City. Would not count on any coming to US any time soon though based on production numbers. If Volt is 35-40K & one of these or the Ox is available for sub 20K it will become the mainstream for most long before Volt & has recharge option of up to 80% < 1 Hour and uses A123 batteries. Google Think City if interested. The Aptera looks nice too excepting it is currently a two seater but would defiantely turn heads and has a series hybrid option & looks to be produced before the Volt in Carlsbad Ca. I like the Volt but if GM can’t get its price down there are other options for those who want to get us off oil ASAP. GM is not the only show in town.

]]> By: doggydogworld http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-35071 doggydogworld Tue, 01 Apr 2008 17:42:29 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-35071 Tim, your EREV vs. EV cost numbers are way off. A Volt-equivalent EV with 100 mile range would cost MORE than the Volt. There's an extra $10k or so in battery cost vs. only a $5k-ish savings from eliminating the ICE/generator. Your hypothetical non-toy $20k EV-100s might be big sellers, if they existed. The only way to get close to $20k in a non-toy car is to use lead-acid, which needs total replacement every few years. Lifetime car+battery cost is thus more like $40k than $20k. KariK, here's what Zenn's chairman actually said: "To be very clear, this is not a lab that they are building. It is a full, state of the art production facility that is nearing completion, and we remain very pleased with their progress." He did not say devices were already in production. No one, including EEStor customers/investors such as Zenn, Lockheed and Kleiner Perkins, has ever claimed to have seen a working EEStor capacitor. Tim, your EREV vs. EV cost numbers are way off. A Volt-equivalent EV with 100 mile range would cost MORE than the Volt. There’s an extra $10k or so in battery cost vs. only a $5k-ish savings from eliminating the ICE/generator.

Your hypothetical non-toy $20k EV-100s might be big sellers, if they existed. The only way to get close to $20k in a non-toy car is to use lead-acid, which needs total replacement every few years. Lifetime car+battery cost is thus more like $40k than $20k.

KariK, here’s what Zenn’s chairman actually said:

“To be very clear, this is not a lab that they are building. It is a full, state of the art production facility that is nearing completion, and we remain very pleased with their progress.”

He did not say devices were already in production. No one, including EEStor customers/investors such as Zenn, Lockheed and Kleiner Perkins, has ever claimed to have seen a working EEStor capacitor.

]]> By: noel park http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-35059 noel park Tue, 01 Apr 2008 16:38:08 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-35059 I don't even know if it's a Zenn or not, but a local guy here has a Canadian made electric car, and it is the cutest thing you ever saw. Beautifully welded all aluminum frame, ultra thin fiberglass body, everything done to minimize the weight. Even the seats are totally minimalist. They look sort of like high end lawn chairs with elegant aluminum frames. The whole thimg must weigh about 1000#, less batteries. It's only a 35 mph, 35 mile range deal, but it is really elegant for what it is. An omen for the future, IMHO. Alas, however, the 35 mi range is a total deal killer for my wife, and I can't commute in a 35 mph car. Still, it is really cool. I don’t even know if it’s a Zenn or not, but a local guy here has a Canadian made electric car, and it is the cutest thing you ever saw. Beautifully welded all aluminum frame, ultra thin fiberglass body, everything done to minimize the weight. Even the seats are totally minimalist. They look sort of like high end lawn chairs with elegant aluminum frames. The whole thimg must weigh about 1000#, less batteries.

It’s only a 35 mph, 35 mile range deal, but it is really elegant for what it is. An omen for the future, IMHO. Alas, however, the 35 mi range is a total deal killer for my wife, and I can’t commute in a 35 mph car. Still, it is really cool.

]]> By: KariK http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-35034 KariK Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:01:49 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-35034 "EEStor devices were described by ZENN Motors chairman today as being not in the lab, but actually in production in Austin, Texas" Kent #39, could you give us a link to this news, I was unable to find it? “EEStor devices were described by ZENN Motors chairman today as being not in the lab, but actually in production in Austin, Texas”

Kent #39, could you give us a link to this news, I was unable to find it?

]]> By: Tom http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-34988 Tom Tue, 01 Apr 2008 09:44:46 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-34988 nasaman, #8: >>I think many people here are overly optimistic that EV battery >>performance will improve significantly, or that battery costs will drop >>dramatically, in the next 10-20 years. I'm glad somebody else feels this way. For some reason most people here take it as a given that batteries will start improving at the same rate as computer chips, because of "science" and "mass production." Computer chips (and the things that are based on them) only improve so quickly because there are frequent and steady improvements to how small transistors can be etched onto silicon. Other than that, a brand new computer chip today isn't really that much different from one 30 years ago. From a certain perspective, they haven't even really improved at all. They're still silicon squares with ceramic packages and metal wires coming out of them. Since batteries don't depend on pretty pictures you can etch on them, expectations must be adjusted. nasaman, #8:

>>I think many people here are overly optimistic that EV battery
>>performance will improve significantly, or that battery costs will drop
>>dramatically, in the next 10-20 years.

I’m glad somebody else feels this way. For some reason most people here take it as a given that batteries will start improving at the same rate as computer chips, because of “science” and “mass production.”

Computer chips (and the things that are based on them) only improve so quickly because there are frequent and steady improvements to how small transistors can be etched onto silicon.

Other than that, a brand new computer chip today isn’t really that much different from one 30 years ago. From a certain perspective, they haven’t even really improved at all. They’re still silicon squares with ceramic packages and metal wires coming out of them.

Since batteries don’t depend on pretty pictures you can etch on them, expectations must be adjusted.

]]> By: NZDavid http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-34984 NZDavid Tue, 01 Apr 2008 05:09:47 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-34984 #45 Adam. You don't lease the battery, you rent it. Thats why it doesn't matter when you swap it out. For example, you recharge each day and after two years you notice the SOC going down, change it no problems. If its below specs at the swap station, it will go off to be recycled. As long as the battery specs are set, I don't see why other car companies could not make product as well. Indeed, I don't see why different battery companies could not compete as well. I can see Singapore going with PBP as well. #45 Adam.
You don’t lease the battery, you rent it. Thats why it doesn’t matter when you swap it out. For example, you recharge each day and after two years you notice the SOC going down, change it no problems. If its below specs at the swap station, it will go off to be recycled. As long as the battery specs are set, I don’t see why other car companies could not make product as well. Indeed, I don’t see why different battery companies could not compete as well.
I can see Singapore going with PBP as well.

]]> By: nasaman http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-34983 nasaman Tue, 01 Apr 2008 05:01:03 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-34983 Re: 45 Adam...... You ask, "....how big of a battery would it take to propel the volt 300+ miles, and what kind of electrical service would a person need to employ to get <10min recharge time?" OK, I'll bite. Using the Volt's current battery technology, a 300-mile version of the Volt's battery would likely weigh roughly (300mi/40mi)x350lbs= 2,625lbs, or as much as some small cars weigh. And to recharge such a battery in 10 min would require 120KWh/0.167h= 718.6KW. At 220V this would draw 718,600W/220V= 327amps, which is impractical. (Even if a charging station could somehow supply 327amps for 10 minutes, the car's battery could not accept charging currents this high without overheating enough to damage itself.) Therefore GM's sizing of the Volt's battery is exactly right for today's technology. Re: 45 Adam…… You ask, “….how big of a battery would it take to propel the volt 300+ miles, and what kind of electrical service would a person need to employ to get <10min recharge time?”

OK, I’ll bite. Using the Volt’s current battery technology, a 300-mile version of the Volt’s battery would likely weigh roughly (300mi/40mi)x350lbs= 2,625lbs, or as much as some small cars weigh. And to recharge such a battery in 10 min would require 120KWh/0.167h= 718.6KW. At 220V this would draw 718,600W/220V= 327amps, which is impractical. (Even if a charging station could somehow supply 327amps for 10 minutes, the car’s battery could not accept charging currents this high without overheating enough to damage itself.)

Therefore GM’s sizing of the Volt’s battery is exactly right for today’s technology.

]]> By: NZDavid http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/31/a-chat-with-project-better-place-investor-michael-granoff/#comment-34982 NZDavid Tue, 01 Apr 2008 04:57:05 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/?p=980#comment-34982 PBP is a good idea for small, high population density, countries, maybe large cities. E-REV technology is better for large countries, or low population densities. Both approaches have their place. For NZ E-REV is the way to go. PBP is a good idea for small, high population density, countries, maybe large cities. E-REV technology is better for large countries, or low population densities. Both approaches have their place.
For NZ E-REV is the way to go.

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