Volt Nation Audience Reactions

25 Responses to “Volt Nation Audience Reactions”

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   Lyle Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 6:49 am

   Overnight we moved the site to a new Dedicated Server..Some things may have gotten a little quirky let me know if there are any problems. I apologize for a few comments getting lost as well.

   Good news is we can now handle more than 500 comments, and that post which overwhelmed the old server is now back for all to see here:

   http://gm-volt.com/2008/03/16/give-your-direct-input-to-gms-volt-engineering-team-on-vehicle-data-options/  
   
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   nasaman Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 7:41 am

   Congratulations, Lyle …. for a smooth transition to a new host & faster server! The site’s tremendous popularity & explosive growth that necessitated it are the direct result of your herculean efforts!

   The “video vignettes” you’ve included above are excellent examples of the excitement expressed by the hundreds of people attending the incredible VoltNation inaugural town hall meeting last week from as far away as California …..it was truly a history-making event comparable to the first Space Shuttle launch (which I was also involved in)!!!  
   
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   nasaman Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 7:43 am

   Forgive me once again, everybody, but I need to add….

   PLEASE REMEMBER: A new forum thread is available for everyone to RANK the top 10 or 20 questions not yet answered (or not fully answered) by GM at VoltNation or elsewhere. Go to….. http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175 where you can rank these questions I’m calling the ”Lutz List” from most important to least important. The deadline is Wed, April 2.

   (If the above link doesn’t work for you, please copy/paste it into your browser’s URL address window instead.)

   ….ONLY 3 DAYS REMAIN TO RANK THESE QUESTIONS!  
   
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   pdt Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 11:42 am

   I wanted to post to the Forum, but couldn’t register due to a broken link to the registration image. If anyone wants to post this to the forum, please do so.

   Sorry if any of this is redundant, but I just got time to get my notes in order.

   GM Volt Nation Event March 19, 2008

   People I focused on: Lutz, Frank Weber, Jon Laukner, Alexandra Cattelan (Assistant Chief Engineer, E-Flex Extended Range Electric Vehicle)

   Overall impressions:

   This was a unique event and I learned a great deal by attending. Thanks Lyle and GM!

   The GM team working on this car is top-notch technically and very motivated/energized about this vehicle. I really believe they see vehicles like the Volt as the future and have a great sense of purpose and pride about being a leader in this area. I participated in an informal question and answer session with Alexandra Cattelan after the formal event. Alexandra was very impressive, definitely the kind of person one would like to have leading this effort.

   Batteries:

   GM has several prototype battery packs with cells from A123 and LGChem–at least one since December. The first thing GM said was that the batteries are performing as expected in lab testing. I had several questions ready about the battery packs, but it seems that the only questions left are about cost and production volume which I don’t think they can predict. GM seems to believe the combination of engineering controls (e.g. active temperature control) and the battery characteristics will meet the performance and durability requirements for the Volt.

   I asked about low temperature issues for batteries. First, GM is considering the use of some grid power to keep the batteries above a critical temperature while plugged in. Second, if necessary, they will use power to heat the batteries (including possibly power from the ICE). Subtext: They will protect the batteries by whatever means necessary even if it sacrifices some efficiency. I forgot to ask about high temperatures (probably because I live in upstate NY and it’s March). Also, “GM will not sell an unsafe product.”

   In a related question they plan to tie the waste heat of the ICE into the same loop as the electrical heating system so that if the ICE is running they can use the waste heat for passenger compartment and battery heating (i.e. they are not going to waste the waste-heat from the ICE).

   Also related, the battery internal resistance is much lower in the Li-batteries than for Ni-batteries, which requires different strategies for control (e.g. they have to use a heating system to warm the batteries rather than just allow the internal resistance to self heat). About 250 cells/pack (more or less depending on chemistry). GM believes the batteries will have more than enough power to handle regenerative braking and peak power requirements and that they will not need ultracaps or two sets of batteries (power batteries and energy batteries).

   Timing/Manufacturing:

   Lutz is “100%” sure they will make the Volt.

   Volt will be built in Detroit (at least to start).

   “Days” to production design freeze (should be frozen now).

   “Weeks” to get battery packs into vehicles.

   Philosophy:

   I asked what GM perceives the advantage to be of the E-REV design over just adding batteries to a standard hybrid. Answer: The E-REV design allows for more use of grid power when averaged over the distribution of driving behavior in the US. (my conclusion, not stated by any GM rep: other advantages, such as lower criteria emissions (NOx/CO/HC), must be seen as secondary).

   I had a vigorous discussion about standardization of the power bus hardware and software, enabling possibilities for options such as varieties of battery pack sizes, engine sizes, motor sizes, etc. The bottom line seems to be that the compressed development time frame for this vehicle does not allow time for those considerations. They seem very focused on getting one well-engineered vehicle designed without taking the time for powertrain options or long-term visions about standardization (something like this: http://osgv.org/).

   Other:

   The Volt will not have the ability to output AC power (at least in Rev 1).

   Having a mode for using both the ICE and the batteries for power simultaneously (even when the battery is fully charged) is under consideration (this would allow for some interesting performance/economy choices by the driver).

   GM reps referred several times to the challenges of building this car such as dealing with the possibility of “stale” gas, thinking about shock and vibe for an engine that is not running, dealing with engine lubrication if the car is run only on batteries for weeks or months.

   It surprised me to hear that E85 has less of an aging issue than regular gas.

   The volt will still have a 12V lead-acid battery (a small one).

   Hot and cold weather will have the same impact on range as in a normal vehicle. (my comment here: since the all-electric range is only ~10% of the total range, weather conditions could have a fairly dramatic impact on all-electric range). However, the driver will have control over comfort vs economy.

   Engine will be a 1-liter, turbo-charged, port-injected, 3-cylinder engine (but with possibilities for “other” technologies).

   Emissions controls are all about the first 30-seconds of the engine running.  
   
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   Talks Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

   pdt,

   I think you got the answers for most of the questions nasaman has prepared.  
   
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   Jim I Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

   pdt:

   That was really good information!  
   
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   Tom Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

   Seems like a lot of problems could be solved by simply automatically running the engine for a while once a week. Stale gas, engine lubrication, etc.

   You may have to put in, say, a gallon of gas or two per month even if you never really need the ICE… think of it as a $60/year engine maintenance program. People probably spend more per year just changing the oil in their regular cars.  
   
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   Grizzly Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

   pdt:

   A great concise summary jam-packed with relevant info. One of the best I’ve seen.

   Question…last statement…what do you mean by emissions being “all about the first 30″ ? Do you mean that the closed loop emissions are already standardized for that 3-banger and that they’re working to limit the open loop cold engine emissions?

   Thanks  
   
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   GM Volt Fan Says:
   March 30th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

   I hope that IC engine is as quiet and fuel efficient as they can make it and it will run on almost any type of alcohol, gasoline or “biogasoline” … whatever they might come up with.

   Hopefully it will be as quiet as some of the Honda generators … which can run at low as 59 db. at 7 yards away …. about normal speech level.

   http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gensup.asp

   If people want engine noise they can buy mp3 or CD recordings of their favorite sounds and play it inside the car … and even outside with speakers if they want to. I hear the Fisker Karma car is going to have this..

   http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/

   So is the Lightning GT car.

   http://www.lightningcarcompany.com/specifications.php  
   
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    Tom Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

    Cars like the Honda Civic today have very small, refined, quiet engines. You can barely tell they’re running at idle, at least. Since these “small” engines are still much larger than the engine the Volt will have, I imagine GM won’t have too much trouble keeping it quiet.  
    
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    George K Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    Lyle, great job putting those together! My thanks to GM as well.

    Pdt, thanks for the extra details!

    Nasaman, opposite of one of the questions, I would like to see a switch to turn the ice on when the battery SOC is above 30% . That way, the DRIVER could cycle his tank without having to wait for the battery to discharge. (I prefer not to have the Volt cycle on its own to keep the engine/gas fresh. That’s too much like a parallel hybrid!)

    Also, larger cities are contemplating a “congestion tax” with exemptions/reductions for electric cars (London has this now). It would be great to be able to drive to the city and still have a full battery! While I’m in a suburb of Chicago, I still live 35 miles from downtown.  
    
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    Grizzly Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    Tom #10

    I have do doubt it’ll be quiet, but smooth is another issue. For any given number of cylinders usually the smaller displacement siblings are smoother, ie a 1.6 four (all else equal) is usually smoother than a 2.0 or 2.2 etc. At 1 liter, the Volt ICE is small, but it’s also a 3 cyl which makes it difficult to balance. Hopefully they’ll blend the right amount of counterweighting and counter rotating shafts to really smooth this thing out if they haven’t already.

    The fact that this engine won’t be in the drive train may allow for unusual mounting that further isolates vibration. I’m sure they’ll work this out.  
    
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    Grizzly Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    Ooops……typo #12….that should be “no doubt”…  
    
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    pdt Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 7:32 pm

    #8 Grizzly:

    “Question…last statement…what do you mean by emissions being “all about the first 30″ ? Do you mean that the closed loop emissions are already standardized for that 3-banger and that they’re working to limit the open loop cold engine emissions?”

    I’m not sure about the closed loop/open loop terms. What I meant to say is that the total emissions of NOx/HC/CO over the entire time the engine is running are dominated by the “cold start” emissions in the first 30 seconds after a cold engine is started, but before the 3-way catalyst “lights off”. After the catalyst is warmed up the emissions are very, very low.  
    
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    Grizzly Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

    pdt #14

    That’s what I thought. Open/closed loop refers to how the PCM works with sensors, but you’ve answered my question. We know that most O2 sensors don’t function until about 600deg. F and in older odbII cars (pre 2000…at least) this took some time, and until this condition, the vehicle was operating in a “preset” (open loop) MTM mode. Recently GM cars have shortened the length of time that they operate in “open loop”, my own closes in about 30 sec even if the O2 hasn’t reached 600deg. F.

    One of the biggest questions about low batt SOC triggering an ICE=ON condition is….will it warm up with a simple “fast idle” or will it immediately race to 1.9-2.5K rpm? Engine wear aside, I’ve got to believe this is DEFINITELY one of the “programming issues” GM is wrestling with. I’m guessing that for this “green” car they want to cap even the warm up emissions. Personally, I think it should come on about 30sec to 1 min earlier than necessary and warm up under a modest 900-1000rpm fast idle condition and circulate oil before climbing to a work-load 1.9-2.5K speed. The ICE may be used sparingly by most people, but it is an insurance policy that will almost guarantee public acceptance of this vehicle. For this reason I think that the long life of the ICE is the only thing in question and since most wear occurs during startup, why race the engine when you can give it a grace/lube period?  
    
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    NZDavid Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 10:15 pm

    Phew, finally transfered over. I was having withdraw symptoms for a while there. Pdt. thanks for the info.  
    
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    Tom Says:
    March 30th, 2008 at 11:50 pm

    #15, Grizzly:

    As a data point, my BMW has an “oil life” meter. I read up on it several years ago. It’s a very simple counter that just increments for every mile you drive, except for two special conditions. It increments twice for every mile you drive > 3000 RPM when the engine is cold. I remember being very surprised that driving for an entire mile at > 3k RPM with a cold engine made such little difference to this counter. So maybe having a “graceful” warmup period isn’t as important as we instinctively think.  
    
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    MLRTYME Says:
    March 31st, 2008 at 2:29 am

    9 GM Volt Fan: It would be a great idea if they can provide multiple solutions for the fueling issue. I would love to see E85 as an option, or “bio”fuel derivatives. Straight alcohol wouldn’t be a successful long-term option as this type of fuel “gels” easily within lines when left unaccounted for. Our cars run additives, but we still have to drain the lines if we aren’t scheduled to run again for a couple of weeks. Also, that darn fuel is MURDER on lubrication systems. The condensation that builds up in the intake manifold that drains water into the oiling system is brutal. We are constantly changing the oil in those darn things! However, thinking outside the box will only help!

    17 Tom: A warm-up period may be an important factor for more reasons than just oil useage. Many rotating assembly items are designed to work at maximum efficiency when they reach certain tolerances (Piston to wall, Piston ring gap, crank and rod journal, etc…). Also, an ICE at operating temperature will burn fuel more efficiently due to an already heated pistons, cylinder heads, and other items in the quench area which promotes an more complete combustion cycle. If the system takes a small “graceful” warmup period to achieve optimum operating temperature, then when the system does kick in, it will be more efficient. Now, whether or not that is a fair trade-off in comparison to the amount of fuel used during the warmup period…I wouldn’t know. I’m sure the engineers have their hands full on that one. I would just assume that the warmup period would be for more than just optimizing the lubrication system.

    …of course, that’s just a guess!   
    
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    Jim F. Says:
    March 31st, 2008 at 6:05 am

    The discussion about the ICE warm-up makes me wonder about the annual emissions inspection in our state. It seems to me there should be a method to start and bring the ICE up to operating temperature before the emissions are checked.  
    
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    noel park Says:
    March 31st, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    When the hybrid systems shut down the engine at stoplights and then restart, does this issue come into play? Or do the cats stay hot long enough that it’s not a problem?

    After reading about the GM “soft” hybrids, I have taken to shutting off my 4 cyl S-10 at long lights. I get beeped at when I take off too slowly, but what the hey, it’s another dime out of the Saudi princes’ Swiss accounts. But I have to admit a bit of guilt about possible extra emissions on restart.

    Does anyone have any info on this?  
    
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    pdt Says:
    March 31st, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    From reading one of the Argonne papers, one of the criteria for restarting the gas engine in the Prius is catalyst temperature going too low. The catalyst will stay hot enough for some period of time, but the exact time depends on the particular design of the exhaust system.  
    
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    Grizzly Says:
    March 31st, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    Tom #17

    Oil life monitors are kind of sophisticated “idiot lights” to say the least. I monitor my own oil changes and just reset mine w/o ever giving it any consideration. I’m sure every manufacturer has their own algorithm to decide when it comes on, but the reality is that it’s basically an ornament.

    Again, this brings me back to the ICE in the Volt. I’m just betting that some people might go better than a year w/o ever triggering the ICE in their normal every day driving. I do envision more sophisticated RE options in the future like even possibly turbines etc. but for now I think that the good ‘ol 3 banger will get the job done provided it’s regular maintenance and up keep (such as running it occasionally) isn’t overlooked. The reason I mentioned the warm up in an earlier post has nothing to do with emissions. If the ICE hasn’t been run in quite awhile and temps are cold and it immediately races to 2-2.5K rpm you;re looking at oil starvation of parts that don’t even have a base film. This type of intermittent running of the ICE could quickly turn it into an oil burner, and coolant “leaker” with relatively few work hours. This would not be the case in a regular vehicle where the ICE is run everyday because it’s the only means of propulsion.

    Sooo, even when all the attention is on the batt. pack, range, et al. there is quite a bit of work to be done before 2010 on other fronts. For those that say this is just as simple as adding an ICE to an BEV and “be done with it” I hope I’ve made a point. Most know however that this vehicle has never been attempted before and just what kind of challenges GM is up against.  
    
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    Pstoller78 Says:
    March 31st, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    If the ICE hasn’t been run in quite awhile and temps are cold and it immediately races to 2-2.5K rpm you;re looking at oil starvation of parts that don’t even have a base film. This type of intermittent running of the ICE could quickly turn it into an oil burner, and coolant “leaker” with relatively few work hours.

    If an electric oil pump were used couldn’t the engine be “primed” with oil before being started.  
    
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    NZDavid Says:
    April 1st, 2008 at 12:19 am

    #22 & 23. Like the Prius the generator will bring the engine up to speed, lubing all the parts before fuel/heat is introduced.
    I expect life cycle should be enhanced over the current versions. Hopefully my engine hour counter will mean once a year services.  
    
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    knMichaeluk Says:
    September 28th, 2009 at 3:45 am

    Thoughts, images, arguments. That which does not show and not tell.

    Details on video

    Download

    http://letitbit.net/download/2966.2c643813e1fbdb116fbca741b/video.mp4.html

    http://depositfiles.com/files/8u842j0j3  
    
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