Mar 28

Zenn Says EEStor Ultracapacitor-Powered Car for Launch Fall 2009

 

zenn.jpg

Put this one in the category of “I’ll believe it when I see it”, but Zenn Motor company claims it will launch an electric car powered by EEStor’s ultracapacitor in the fall of 2009.

The car called the cityZENN is claimed to have a top speed of 80 MPH and to be able to drive up to 250 miles on a single 5-minute charge.

EEStor is a secretive company claiming to have a breakthrough technology for energy storage in a specialized ultrcapacitor, rather than battery. They have not given interviews, but Lockheed-Martin has a contract with them (see post).

Source (ZENN)

Thanks to Kent Beuchert for the tip.

This entry was posted on Friday, March 28th, 2008 at 7:31 pm and is filed under Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 96


  1. 1
    Grizzly

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (7:38 pm)

    If you read L-M’s website, they have an agreement with Eestor,  but readily admit that they haven’t verified any of the technology.   GM’s  own Denise Gray stated in an interview that Eestor’s ultra cap is good for surge power, but at this time doesn’t have sustenance.  

    How on earth could they make this claim for 2009?   If it’s true,  why would anyone be pursuing Li-ion?


  2. 2
    BillR

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (7:48 pm)

    Just a quick thought.  The Volt goes 5 miles per kWh.  I don’t see this vehicle doing much better, so a 250 mile range equates to 50 kWh.  If I recall correctly, EEStor claims to be able to store 18 kWh is a 100 lb cylinder, so that equates to 3 of these cylinders.

    Just be careful of the "5 minute" charge time.  Even at 22o volts, a 50 kWh charge in one hour would draw 230 amps!  I also believe, that the charge voltage in this cylinder may be several thousand volts.  So yes, if you have access to a 13.8 kV power line, and can handle 220 amps, you can charge this puppy in 5 minutes.  Just make sure you’re in your insulated utility bucket, are wearing rubber boots and rubber gloves, and aren’t worried about a "Tesla" hairdo.


  3. 3
    BillR

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (7:51 pm)

    Sorry, that should be 45 amps at 13.8 kV.


  4. 4
    kent beuchert

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (7:57 pm)

    I must say that this has credibility – unlike ZAP, ZENN
    Motors seems to every bit a legit operation that has been around for some time without acquiring a questionable
    or tainted reputation. When their execs get up in front of their stockholders and make a claim like this, especially since Lockheed Martin recently  made a connection, I have to believe what that they are confident that the devices work. 
    And those devices have been described with VERY impressive characteristics – they would immediately make all other battery technology like those for autos and stationary devices immediately and totally obsolete.  To
    list some of their claimed characteristics : unlimited recharging lifespan; recharge rates that are basically unlimited; weight that  is a fraction of existing li ion batteries; cost that is also a small fraction of existing battery technologies; capacities that are much larger than
    existing technologies. I haven’t heard anything about temperature effects, well, at least I can’t remember hearing anything.


  5. 5
    kent beuchert

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (8:04 pm)

    To add further. If these devices work as described they could have a gigantic impact on the electrical grid, allowing
    storage at a very cheap rate and enable unreliable producers, such as wind and wave, etc. to have output with real value
    and ability to meet all-important peak demand. And generally to make life far more efficient for the grid and electricity cheaper for everyone. The salutary effects would be quite large, in my opinion.


  6. 6
    trevor

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (8:06 pm)

    they can keep their little square box, ill save my money for the chevy


  7. 7
    kdg

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (8:42 pm)

    while everyone is fussing over lithiom ion batteries, ill be driving an air compressed vehicle that will be produced next year. thanks to a group based out of france, who is teaming with tata motors, compressed air vehicles will beat the volt to market for alot less money. zero pollution and much cheaper than electric cars, what else can you ask for???


  8. 8
    OhmExcited

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (8:42 pm)

    On paper this looks like a technology that could change the world, but I’m skeptical because of their secrecy and their association with a little known company that makes cars that are not classed as regular cars. I hope I’m wrong and wish them well.


  9. 9
    Grizzly

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (8:47 pm)

    Kent #4

    This very blog had the interview with Denis Gray who was asked,  and she had tested the Eestor  ultra cap, and  said roughly what I stated in #1.   Namely that it had good surge power, but couldn’t sustain.  If she had tested this unit and found the characteristics Zenn is claiming, why would GM even pursue Li-ion?

    WRT Lockheed Martin as I mentioned above,  their own website specifically states that they have an agreement with Eestor, but that they haven’t tested their devices.

    For this reason, this Zenn claim is to be taken with a grain of salt.     The bigger question is, why is Zenn forbidden to sell cars in Canada, their home turf?


  10. 10
    David L

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (9:08 pm)

    You can watch a webcast of the Zenn Cars AGM at: http://www.zenncars.com/, or download the audio from the AGM from: http://podcast.newswire.ca/media/zenn20080328.mp3

    The portion regarding EEStor and their planned cityZENN starts at 20 minutes, 30 seconds into the presentation.


  11. 11
    KariK

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (9:24 pm)

    In a recent Forbes article:
    http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneursfinance/2008/02/27/motorola-sony-procter-ent-tech-cx_ml_0228battery.html
    they said that:
    "According to the company, EEStor’s batteries boast specific energy of 280 watt-hours per kilogram, whereas a lithium ion battery has about 120 watt-hours and a lead-acid gel battery, commonly used in golf carts and motor scooters, has only 32 watt hours."

    So a 16 kWh battery would weigh 57 kg, or 127 lb.  A Li-ion battery of the same size, according to them, would weigh 133 kg, or almost 300 lb.  To compare, A123 Systems ANR26650M1 Li-ion cell has 108 Wh/kg.

    Capacitors do have the problem of high voltages, and also that the charge tends to leak away in time.  We’ll have to wait until EEStor provides some more numbers (assuming of course that they can deliver the technology, there seem to be guite a few doubters).


  12. 12
    David L

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (9:35 pm)

    #9 – Grizzly wrote: The bigger question is, why is Zenn forbidden to sell cars in Canada, their home turf?

    As a Canadian, I’m embarrassed to say that the challenges that ZENN has been having licensing their cars are entirely due to federal and provincial government bureaucracies. Their cars are currently licensed in 45 or the 50 US states and in most of Europe.
     
    In November 2007, Transport Canada changed the rules to allow the current ZENN model to be driven on Canadian roads. However …
    "Provincial governments need to pass special legislation to allow the car on city streets. The Toronto-based ZENN Motor Company says British Columbia is the only province to have low-speed vehicle regulations in place. The cars are available in the U.S. and were approved by Transport Canada last fall for sale in Canada."

    Apparently, PEI is considering allowing the ZENN cars ..
    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2008/01/21/zenn-mackinley.html

    Background Video:
    http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/environmentscience/a_victory_for_zenn.html

    I’m wondering if I should buy some shares … :-)


  13. 13
    pdt

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (9:53 pm)

    As far as I can tell there has been no independent testing.  That’s not something I would bet on.  The patent is worth reading too for the complete lack of any data.  It’s a theory patent.  That’s not a patent I’d invest money in.  Having said all that, I’d be thrilled if they really had something.  Thrilled and surprised.


  14. 14
    George K

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (10:21 pm)

    I wonder if the shape of the ultracapacitor could fit in E-Flex?  Remember there is a cross bar in the center of the pack going width wise.  With batteries, you can build the pack to fit different shapes.

    I’m glad to know that Denise Gray has looked at these, and I think it’s too late to switch horses now, for a Nov. 2010 delivery.  Especially with so many negative Nells saying "the batteries aren’t ready!  The batteries aren’t ready!", and now we  know that the batteries are ready.


  15. 15
    Tom Crowley

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (10:27 pm)

    Ok
    I’m trying to do the math, Its late , I have a few adult drinks,
    But when I start to crunch the numbers, in the back of my mind I see the car plugged in and it looks like a bug zapper.
    Does any one else have this problem?
    I hope they have solved the problem with the Caps and charging, but full charge in 5 minutes and that much range
    Something is not right


  16. 16
    Koz

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (10:54 pm)

    If the technology works and the price is close to what they claim, I doubt any car maker would have issues with designing around it’s size. Like many others have said, this is a BIG IF.

    Another concern that may have to be engineered around is that capacitors have a big voltage swing over their discharge cycle.


  17. 17
    John

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (11:12 pm)

    Wonder if the 5 minute charge requires you to have one of their units in your garage that has been charging all night , so charging the car is just a transfer from one to the other ? Maybe LM is just interested in the huge discharge , no duration and portability ?


  18. 18
    David L

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (11:23 pm)

    I’m not en expert, but here goes:

    120 V, 15 amp circuit takes 27.78 hours to charge 50 kWh if 100% efficiency. At 90% efficiency, it would take 30.86 hours.

    240 V, 20 amp circuit (similar to a stove or dryer) takes 10.41 hours to charge 50 kWh if 100% efficiency. At 90% efficiency, it would take 11.57 hours.

    To charge 50 Kwh in 5 minutes would be 10 kWh/minute – or 600 kWh/hour. At 240 V, this would be 2500 amperes (600,000 kWh/240V). There is no practical way to deliver such a high amperage at a low voltage (the cable would need to be huge!). Therefore, if considering a "safer" voltage, such as 100,000 V – only 6 amperes would be required. The only way to realistically deliver this is through high voltage power lines to a "recharge station" with a small step-down transformer. However, I cannot perceive of any safe way for a consumer to connect the electricity to recharge at this rate.

    So …. I suspect 15 to 35 hours for a full charge from a home electrical system is a more realistic estimate.


  19. 19
    David L

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (11:31 pm)

    I’m not en an expert typist, either. :-)


  20. 20
    John

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (11:43 pm)

    They do get a lot of bad press because of their secrecy , but I ‘ m OK with that . It is companies like Nanosolar that I wish would tell us more , because they have received so much taxpayer money . Maybe I ‘ m wrong and Eestor is using public funds also : if so , I would like them to update us as to how they / we are doing .


  21. 21
    Jeff M

     

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    Mar 28th, 2008 (11:55 pm)

    Ok, first if you read the press release, and assuming I read it correctly… they aren’t planning to make any cars from scratch… but retrofits of conventional cars (presumably new). So I think we are talking about small volume, and since it’s a retrofit and in such small volume, I wouldn’t expect it to be cheap.

    Regarding the 5 minute fast charge… I do NOT think the purpose of that capability is for at home charging where there really isn’t that need.  Instead that capability is most useful if there was a network of fast charge stations, effectively extending the range as long as the next charging station was within range.

    And regarding why they can’t sell in certain locations their current EV’s…. as David mentions, it’s politics, but the key part of what he said is that it applies specifically to non-highway capable EV’s…. this new vehicle is highway capable so in theory they wouldn’t have to worry about that rule….


  22. 22
    Mark

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (12:18 am)

    ZENN is built in Canada..yet NO province will let them sell in Canada.  Such a shame.   If they were allowed to sell it, I would buy it.


  23. 23
    Grizzly

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (12:32 am)

    The biggest thing for Zenn right now is to deliver on their claim.    The question I have is that if they’re for real, they have to have already tested prototypes to know for sure that 250 is doable    If they haven’t, then they’re taking Eestor’s word for it, which puts this whole thing back in perspective.


  24. 24
    Jim

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (1:17 am)

    This controversy about if Eestor will ever deliver to Zenn has gone on long enough. Zenn needs to drive an Eestor Test Mule 100 miles or more in full view of the public. If Zenn is going into production next year they have tested a prototype Eestor unit in one of their vehicles.   No close scrutiny of the Eestor unit would be necessary. This would allow Eestor to remain secretive and lend credibility to Zenn and Eestor.


  25. 25
    NiraliSherni

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (1:32 am)

    I welcome the fact that more and more companies are interested in the environment and in producing electric vehicles and that more electric vehicles will be seen on the roads in the years to come. ZAP is already a leader in producing road worthy electric vehicles of all kinds, to suit every pocket and requirement!


  26. 26
    David L

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (1:36 am)

    #22 Mark, wrote: ZENN is built in Canada..yet NO province will let them sell in Canada. Such a shame. If they were allowed to sell it, I would buy it.

    As I wrote in post #12 – the ZENN currently can be sold in BC. Reading other news reports, it appears that approval is pending for Quebec, Ontario and for PEI.


  27. 27
    David L

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (1:50 am)

    #21 Jeff M, wrote: Ok, first if you read the press release, and assuming I read it correctly… they aren’t planning to make any cars from scratch… but retrofits of conventional cars (presumably new).

    I watched most of the AGM webcast (see post #10). It appears that they are planning a brand new design, but it is currently under wraps. ZENN does manufacture their current car from scratch, using plastic panels and an aluminum frame. You can get a tour of their factory and the car (while watching a pretty funny video) at:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c


  28. 28
    NZDavid

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (3:00 am)

    When Lockheed Martin whet to visit, loast year,  they were not even doing bench testing let alone have a working prototype, 2009 just is not gonna happen.
    I think ZENN should upgrade their lead Acid batteries to the firefly ones, and settle in for a long wait. 
    Teslas charging station is 70amp on 240 Volt and it takes 3.5 hours for ~47 KW. Basically you would need one EEStor  capacitor to charge another.


  29. 29
    Tom Crowley

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (7:06 am)

    Morning
    After a good night sleep I checked out Zenn’s web page
    and I have two dealers about 100 miles from me.
    one is a golf cart store and the other is a use car lot
    I’ll let the group know what information I get from them.


  30. 30
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (7:53 am)

    I think it might be a good possibility that GM uses both the A123 or LGChem lithium ion batteries along with the latest and greatest ultracapacitor technology.

    Check this out:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4252628.html

    "Plug-in hybrids, on the other hand, will still likely use batteries for their main battery pack, and capacitors for reclaiming energy while slowing down and to provide high-current acceleration. This will let the batteries discharge and recharge at moderate current, which should offer better performance and battery life over the long haul. Get ready for these ultracapacitors, because I think they’re on the way."

    There’s going to be a bunch of mind boggling new technologies coming in the next 10-20 years.  "Back to the Future" type stuff.  Check out this video about "smart materials" with this top GM engineer.  These "smart materials" look like something the government "reverse engineered" from a crashed alien spaceship in Roswell or something.  :)

    http://www.jumpthecurve.net/index.php/recent_posts/the_future_of_the_automobile/

    There’s a lot of groundbreaking stuff going on these days.  In 10 years, we’re going to wonder why the heck we ever had to propel our cars with these loud, obnoxious, polluting, inefficient, fuel guzzling things called "internal combustion engines".  I just want it to get here SOON.  I’m tired of waiting for "in 5 more years …. "   :)

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4252623.html


  31. 31
    nasaman

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (8:09 am)

    PLEASE REMEMBER: A new forum thread is now available for everyone to RANK the top 10 or 20 questions not yet answered (or not fully answered) by GM at VoltNation or elsewhere. Go to…..  http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175  Here you can rank these questions I’m calling the "Lutz List" from most important to least important. The deadline is Wed, April 2. (If the above link doesn’t work, copy/paste it into your browser’s URL address window instead.) ….ONLY 4 DAYS REMAIN TO RANK THESE QUESTIONS!


  32. 32
    nasaman

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (8:28 am)

    PS: So far 15 folks here have ranked these questions –THANKS GUYS! Only 4 days remain until April 2, when I’ll consolidate your rankings & forward the final "Lutz List" to Lyle, for sending on to GM. This process should improve our chances of actually getting answers from GM!


  33. 33
    Statik

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (8:31 am)

    It does say rechargeable in less than 5 mins, but maybe they just don’t want to give something away.

    I was thinking, what if they think of the car like we do a cordless drill? Where you can swap packs in less than five minutes? Old pack pops out to recharging station, new pack pops in? Bingo! Your good to go! Or you can just plug it in and wait 8 hours…old school.

    If it wasn’t for the cost of packs, that seems like a bloody brilliant idea. Surely, if we can automate seats, doors, retractible roofs, suspensions, we can figure out a way to auto-unload a battery pack.


  34. 34
    John

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (9:02 am)

    I doubt that even their 3 paragraph disclaimer on the bottom of the page would would keep their stockholders from chasing them with sticks if they don ‘ t see the product on time after a press release like this one . I want them to do well.


  35. 35
    NorthernPiker

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (9:23 am)

    There are also developments in Li-ion batteries that promise vastly improved performance.  So, future improvements in EV performance may come from a variety of storage technology advances and that is good.

    Argonne National Labs has developed a new cathode chemistry with double the capacity of A123′s LiFePO4 chemistry.  It still uses cobalt like laptop batteries but less of it. So, it may be expensive, due to the cobalt content, once the EV market takes off and therefore limited to the laptop/cellphone market.  Anyway interesting stuff.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/03/argonne-license.html
    Also, Stanford claims that it has a developed a silicon nanowire anode with 10 X the capacity of the graphite anode typically used Li-ion batteries.  AltairNano also uses a non-carbon anode . Stanford and claims the same benefits plus more capacity.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071219103105.htm


  36. 36
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (9:35 am)

    I’m with Lyle on this one.  I’ll believe when I see it.

    We hear so much talk talk talk talk talk from companies that have invented this, and invented that.  But let’s be honest.
    Right now, if we wanted to buy an EV, we are faced with limited range, limited speed, and/or an astronomical cost.  I really hope that EEStor and Zenn make their vehicle and it does what they claim.  I really do hope this, because it will turn the whole EV idea on its head.   Because a 250 mile range on a single 5-minute charge will change car transportation for ever.  It takes at least 5 minutes to go the gas station today and fill up.  Although 250 miles is less that most cars can get on a tank of gas, this is still great news.  Too good to be true in my opinion, which is why I will believe it when I see it.


  37. 37
    Tim

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (10:08 am)

    Promises, promises.  PROVE IT!

    If you want to charge it in 5 minutes, just crash it into a power substation.  <just joking>

    Anyway, I don’t care about 5 minute charging!  I’ll only need 20 seconds to charge mine because that’s how long it will take me to plug it in at home each night.

    I’ll take two IF they can cruise at 80mph for over 70 miles and if they cost less than $20K/copy with air conditioning and electric windows because a 70 mile electric range will handle over 92% of my daily driving and I have AAA in case I screw-up.  I’ll keep my old gas car for those occasional long trips.

    If this IS true the world will change almost overnight!

    (please be true)


  38. 38
    Tim

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (11:26 am)

    How do I charge an electric car in 5 or 10 minutes?

    ZENN was presumably claiming a charge time of 5 minutes for the 15KWh unit which will initially be used to power the ZENN electric car, not a 52KWh unit as in the Eestor patent.

    The easy way to do this is to have TWO Eestor units – one in the house (or several in a “filling” station) and one in the car. You charge the house unit at night in a few hours using cheap-rate electricity (which a number of countries and regions have, but not all) at 110v or 240v and a current that is comfortable for the house supply. Then you can charge the car from the house unit in 5 minutes using a well insulated cable at 3500v and 70 amps (approx, depending on converter losses at both ends). For a 52Kwh unit 10 mins would probably be more comfortable.


  39. 39
    Tim

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (11:37 am)

    ZENN Motor Company Details Plans for Highway Capable ZENN Powered by EEStor!

    TORONTO, ONTARIO–(Marketwire – March 28, 2008) – ZENN Motor Company Inc. (TSX VENTURE:ZNN) (the "Company"), a leading manufacturer of electric vehicles, held its Annual and Special Meeting of Shareholders at which time management updated shareholders with Company progress in 2007 and detailed future plans for EEStor implementation including specifications around a highway capable, fully electric cityZENN!

    http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=837653

    "EEStor’s game-changing energy storage technology is in the advanced stages of commercialization", stated Ian Clifford, Chief Executive Officer. "EEStor has publicly committed to commercialization in 2008 and their first production line will be used to supply ZENN Motor Company."

    “The Company also plans to work with strategic OEMs to offer a ZENNergy drivetrain, powered by EEStor, in various vehicle platforms as ZENN branded vehicles. ZENNergy drive systems will also be developed for the retrofitting and conversion of existing internal combustion vehicles to electric drive. The Company’s initial target for these retrofit kits will be large, high-profile fleet opportunities.”


  40. 40
    BlackSun

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (11:58 am)

    As other commenters have pointed out, the power needed to deliver 50KWh in 5 minutes is 0.6 MW. If anyone can figure out how to safely hook up the better part of a megawatt to a car, I’d be impressed. At low voltage the cables would be as big around as your arm. High voltage would present its own dangers. Definitely not practical for residential use.

    A far better idea would be to just plan to recharge the vehicle over several hours. Even at a 5 hour recharge time, you still need 10 kilowatts. That’s a healthy amount of power. It would still have the potential to cause a dip large enough to flicker the lights in your neighborhood when activating the charger.

    Something else to think about: This ultracap needs built-in current-limiting to prevent accidental (explosive) discharge. This would seem to also limit charging rates.


  41. 41
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (12:33 pm)

    The electric utilities better get busy planning and rolling out "smart grid" technologies.  100% electric cars and plug-in hybrid are coming.  It could happen faster than they they think. 

    They better at least get their plans for scaling things up in place if there’s a big breakthrough in batteries like EEStor is saying and people want to trade in their old fashioned gas guzzlers in droves in order to get an ultra efficient 100% electric or plug-in hybrid.

    There should be plenty of people who want to stick it to OPEC and the oil companies if gas prices keep going up.  Plenty of people who want to help limit CO2 emissions to slow down global warming.  Plenty of people who just love the "latest and greatest" car technology.  Plenty of people who just think the Volt "look cool" and want to impress their friends.  Lots of eager customers will be out there on waiting lists to get their shiny, new plug-in hybrid or 100% electric.

    This company, Gridpoint, looks like it has the right idea. 

    http://www.gridpoint.com/news/press/20080327a.aspx

    http://www.gridpoint.com/solutions/valueadded/ 

    This company will be able to maximize your electricity savings once their products get cheap enough and integrated with the electric utilities.  If you have the money, you could do all sorts of energy saving things.  You could use it with your latest and greatest solar panels on the roof …. and sell excess power back to the electric utility and lower your bill dramatically.

    If batteries get cheap enough, you could program your Gridpoint management system to pull electricity off the grid at night when it is cheapest, store it in (hopefully) cheap batteries and use that battery to charge your Volt up anytime at the rates you would pay as if you charged it at night. 

    Hopefully, they’ll eventually have the technology available to very safely "quick charge" your Volt in the garage in 5 minutes like EEStor is saying with ultracapacitors.  All this sounds expensive though.  Millionaires will have it right away.  In 10 years, it might be cheap enough to trickle down to everyone else.  Who knows? 

    OPEC and the oil companies won’t like this.  They like making money from all those gas stations around the country and their liquid fuel distribution infrastructure.  The home as "master energy station"?  They’d hate that.  It would be heresy to the Big Oil fatcats.  :)


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    DaV8or

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (12:42 pm)

    Using capacitors to regulate surge charging of the batteries in an EV is fine, but running the car off of them is not likely. Capacitors discharge whether you want them to or not. Imagine leaving your car for a couple of days only to find the capacitors empty. So you have to charge them again. That’s wasted energy. Lockheed Martin is interested in these capacitors be cause they want to use them where it makes sense, like charging a big laser cannon, not to propel vehicles.

    Why would ZENN make this claim of 2009? Because they need the money to survive. They’re hoping people will invest in them if they believe that a huge break through is just around the corner. If believe ZENN, then I can also show you some very promising jet-car companies that could use you cash too.


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    Firefly

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (12:51 pm)

    As a welder, I know that with our industrial welding/generator units that we use in the field, we’re not pulling nearly as many watts/amps that this car would need to recharge. The cables we use are zero gauge and thicker. Our 8 pack welder power unit’s cable was 3 1/2 inches in diameter and under prolonged use would heat to the point of warping the insulation. With all due respect to everyone here, but there is no way in hell that much power could safely be transferred through ANY cabling that the UL would list as safe for residential use. Even in the filling station role, you’d better pay the fill-up attendant a very handsome salary to to it. Even in car audio applications, the capacitor manufacturers warn that not handling capacitors properly could result in injury or death. These capacitors are puny by comparison. And you expect me to believe they’ve solved how to do this without potential loss of life? Give me a break.

    The funny part is that people post here saying GM doesn’t have a clue with technology that they’re more than happy to show off, but you hail this as God’s gift to oil-independence? I won’t believe it when I see it, I’ll believe it when they TEST it to back their claims up…


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    RB

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (1:07 pm)

    The present Zenn car is listed with a maximum speed of 25 mph. That limits the places it can be driven in NC, where even city speed limits normally are 35 mph.  Will the new car be 25 mph maximum also?


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    noel park

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (1:09 pm)

    One thing’s for sure, it’s gonna be a whole new world 3 years from today.


  46. 46
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (1:31 pm)

    Firefly:

    I think the scientists and engineers might have a solution on the way for dealing with the heat generated in the cables caused by electrical resistance in the copper or aluminum …. room temperature superconductors

    Quick charging equipment and ultracapacitors in the home garage for our electric cars might be a possibility in the next 10 years.  It could also lead to radically cheaper electricity rates and practical long distance, low loss electricity transfer. 

    You could get some of your electricity from solar panels or solar thermal plants that are in the Mohave desert in the southwest.  Maybe even from solar in the Sahara desert in Africa.  An "international electrical superhighway"?  Who knows? 

    http://www.infrasite.nl/products/productnews_article.php?ID_productnews=234&language=en 

    http://www.energycentral.com/centers/energybiz/ebi_detail.cfm?id=480

    http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HTTOTGYXPCPWSQSNDLSCKHA?articleID=206904213

    http://www.howstuffworks.com/question610.htm 

    The innovations these days are coming faster and faster.  We’re getting into the Buck Rogers 21st century age with all these nanotech innovations on the way.  Star Trek stuff.  You really can’t say something can’t be done because there might some genius out there who’s about to prove it can be done.  It’ll pop up in a Google search.  OPEC and the oil companies aren’t going to like all these innovations with electricity one bit.  It’ll be great for everyone else though.  :)

    http://www.infrasite.nl/products/productnews_article.php?ID_productnews=234&language=en


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    David L

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (2:10 pm)

    #44 RB, wrote: The present Zenn car is listed with a maximum speed of 25 mph. That limits the places it can be driven in NC, where even city speed limits normally are 35 mph.  Will the new car be 25 mph maximum also?

    You might want to check out the press release that Lyle linked to in his original blog posting:

    The cityZENN is planned to be a fully certified, highway capable vehicle with a top speed of 125 KPH/ 80 MPH and a range or 400 kilometres/250 miles.

    http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=837653


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    omegaman66

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (2:22 pm)

    A few points.

    Charge time is not what you will have when plugging  at home.   The point is the technology of ultra capacitors allows for super short charge times.  YOU will be the limiter in charging not the capacitor.

    Someone mentioned ZAP.  They are a scummy company that I would not buy from even if they had a great product.  They owners are scam artist that have screwed over a whole bunch of people and companies.

    EEStore has been alluding to their ultracapacitors for a few years now.  I hope they are dead on right.  If they are right then this will be the biggest discovery in terms of changing the world than any thing we have ever seen in our lives.

    I hope EEStore is right but simply doubt it.  They have all the tell tell signs of a company that is out to secure investment income on empty promises.  Why have they NEVER given a single demonstration of their technology.  This could easily be done without giving away ANY secret information.


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    jabroni

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (2:36 pm)

    If this vehicle actually happens, you can be sure I would buy this before a Volt…


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    Shawn Marshall

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (4:16 pm)

    240 V * 50 Amps =  12,000 Watts
     That’s a typical stove circuit in a home. It must be derated to 80% of capacity but ignore that. 12,000 watts means 12kW. In one hour that is 12kW-hr. So you need a little over 4 hours to get to 50kW-hrs.
     But you could charge your own caps at home at high voltage and have it ready to transfer to the car via cable. That could go quickly.
     But wouldn’t the high voltage caps in the car need to feed a battery system? The high voltage caps used in power systems  don’t store much energy.  If EEstor has anything like they are describing, it will be truly amazing. I’m gonna ask them to make me a gravity amplifier.


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    Grizzly

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (4:41 pm)

    Lyle,

    Perhaps you could interview Ian Clifford, CEO of ZENN motors and find out what the 250 mile range ZENN claim is based on.

    While Zenn has nothing to do with the Volt, the technology behind it could be applicable, and if it were just Eestor’s claim,  no one would necessarily take it seriously.   Since Zenn is the one making the claim, perhaps their CEO could shed some light.


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    Rockyroad

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (5:25 pm)

    All this reminds me of when the first Exerox copy machine came out and could print on any kind of paper. What ? " You don’t need a master copy and Mulitith machine to make copies?"  I don’t believe it ! Also the first SONY video cam with a cassette tape that you can use over and over again to take video. Can’t be! To note how little was understood one guy even told me that the cassette tape was "developed" in the video cam !! That was the only way he could understand the technology. The majority of the public could not understand the technology at the time. This was in the late 1950s and early 1960′s. Here we go again. Hang on to your down payment for a while this is going to be a bumpy ride. You don’t want to buy the one that uses VHS-C for power.


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    BillR

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (8:04 pm)

    I haven’t scanned EEStor’s patents recently, but if I recall correctly, they are using a ceramic plating on a metal (probably aluminum) surface to be an insulator.  I suspect a number of these plated sheets are rolled together and then charged.  The closer two plates are to one another, the more charge they can hold.  The ceramic keeps the charge from arcing from one plate to the other.

    My concern, from an automotive standpoint, is reliability.  With all the potholes there are around this time of year, how long would it be before the "G" forces from constantly hitting potholes would cause the insulating ceramic to wear at one point in the ultracapacitor, then you would have a 50 kWh meltdown.


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    Grizzly

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (8:50 pm)

    Rockyroad #52

    However the difference is, that Ampex, Xerox etc all gave demonstrations to prove their technology.    I’m not at all insinuating that Eestor isn’t for real, they just haven’t demonstrated their product, which would be a big step in credibility given their claims.


  55. 55
    David L

     

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    Mar 29th, 2008 (11:33 pm)

    The claims by EEStor regarding their ‘Electrical Energy Storage Units’ (EESU) are: Nontoxic and non-hazardousNon-explosiveFor a 52 kWh unit, an initial production price of $3,200, falling to $2,100 with mass production is projected.[6] This is half the price per stored watt-hour as lead-acid batteries, and potentially cheap enough to use to store grid power at off-peak times for on-peak use.No degradation from charge/discharge cycles4-6 minute charge time for a 336 pound (152 kg), 2005 cubic inch (33 L), 52 kilowatt hour (187 MJ), 31 farad, 3500 volt unit, assuming sufficient cooling of the cables.A self-discharge rate of 0.1% per monthFrom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor


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    jscott1000

     

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    Mar 30th, 2008 (2:33 pm)

    I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I believe we are two or three scientific breakthroughs away from this application of technology.

    Capacitors are the only known devices to store electricity, and ultimately I like them better than batteries. Batteries are finicky and subject to all sorts of temperature and physical constraints. Batteries don’t like to be charged or discharged quickly, they don’t like to be fully charged or discharged, they have low energy density, the list goes on and on.

    Now the ultra capacitor could solve many of those problems, but like the Li-Ion, it’s one thing to build one in the lab, and it’s quite another to build one that can be placed in an automobile safely.

    Charging that puppy in 5 minutes could be done at a power plant or sub-station, but whether or not you could do it safely in your home I really really doubt it. These charging stations, but it would have to be staffed with highly paid technicians and out your car in a bomb proof shelter in case anything goes wrong while you are pushing the better part of a megawatt into the capacitor.

    For the sake of electric vehicles, I hope we see such a car someday soon, but as Lyle says, “I’ll believe it when I see it”


  57. 57
    omegaman66

     

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    Mar 30th, 2008 (3:42 pm)

    Uggghhh a Zap commercial at the bottom of the page.


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    Exciton

     

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    Mar 30th, 2008 (8:32 pm)

    Grizzly #9:

    Denis Gray only stated that GM gave to EEstor their specifications/questionnaires. She never did any tests with EEstor devices. Because there are’t any of them worth attention. And never will be. Founders of EEstor have found very sophisticated trick to get the money from VC and get away clean. Keywords are “saturation of polarization”. Ask any researcher working with solid-state physics.


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    Mar 30th, 2008 (10:33 pm)

    I was going on my memory of the interview with D. Gray w/ Tony Posawatz sitting next to her. You may very well be right and I wouldn’t be the least surprised.

    Since we probably can’t get a word out of Eestor, I’m going to try to contact Ian of Zenn motors. The public has the right to the info, and if Zenn is for real they’ll stand behind this. We’ll get to the bottom of this.


  60. 60
    Neil

     

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    Mar 31st, 2008 (3:52 pm)

    Grizzly: #9

    Why is the Canadian government making things awkward for Zenn. Because we are a net exporter of oil and have a governing party who’s power base is in Alberta. Money talks and Steven Harper walks (just like George W)


  61. 61
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Mar 31st, 2008 (4:05 pm)

    Check out this hybrid heavy duty truck that Mack is building for the Air Force. It uses ultracapacitors right now. I wonder if EEStor is supplying them with the ultracapacitors. EEStor is already working with Lockheed Martin and the Army I hear.

    http://www.macktrucks.com/default.aspx?pageid=2189

    http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/2540/20070313183537/www.constructionequipment.com/articles/images/CEX/20070301/cex0703hot_06L.jpg

    http://www.macktrucks.com/assets/mack/vikner_op_ed.pdf

    I’m impressed with what the big truck industry has done so far. Of all the types of vehicles that could use gas saving technology from innovations like A123/LG Chem lithium ion batteries or ultracapacitors from EEStor it is them.

    Those big trucks have guzzled A LOT of fuel just idling for the past 50 years … no doubt about it. Diesel fuel is more expensive than regular unleaded you know. I hear it’s over $4/gallon. The truck drivers love the torque you get with electric drive motors too.

    http://www.calstart.org/


  62. 62
    George B.

     

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    Mar 31st, 2008 (6:57 pm)

    The capacitor technology employed by Eestor appears to be widely recognized (look up Barium Titanate capacitors on the web) as workable. The question is: can the mas produce? The patent they hold looks very similar to one owned by U.S. Phillips, but Eestor just calls the device a “replacement” for conventional bartteries. There will probably be lawsuits involved here and Zenn will never see the capacitors from Eestor. Someone will make them, though and I think this will change everything….


  63. 63
    George B.

     

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    Mar 31st, 2008 (7:01 pm)

    Does any of this sound familiar? Flux capacitor…..1.2 gigawatts…
    My golly, it’s BACK TO THE FUTURE!!!!!


  64. 64
    BillR

     

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    Mar 31st, 2008 (7:20 pm)

    Well, George B., you had to mention BACK TO THE FUTURE!!

    For all those who complain about the ICE on the Volt, and want more batteries, a diesel, or maybe a fuel cell, I want GM to replace my ICE with Mr. Fusion!!

    One charge of hydrogen and I’m good for the century. Now that’s what I call the hydrogen economy!!


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    George B.

     

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    Mar 31st, 2008 (7:38 pm)

    Yeah….sorry, I couldn’t help it! I really was hoping that Eestor had something, but my fear is that they have found that, while getting huge charges into a capacitor is relatively easy, getting that charge out in a controlled fashion is a lot harder. I’m still hoping, though.


  66. 66
    johng

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (7:16 am)

    Has anyone noticed that they have not claimed the milestone payment for measuring the permitivity? It takes only seconds once you have the ceramic made.

    How can they have a prototype without making the dielectric?


  67. 67
    George B.

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (8:21 am)

    They just finished the BaTO3 milling process a few months ago. The next step would be creating a dielectric film with the right dispersion, which sounds pretty difficult. They could probably contract that out, but then they would be sacrificing margin on their product. This will be a business, after all and it seems like they want to produce the whole unit in house. That means ball milling the raw BaTO3, producing the film and other components of the unit, testing each component and assembling the unit. Big job….and they’re starting from scratch on each sep of the process. Their biggest problem is that U.S. Phillips has a similar patent that predates theirs by a year….sounds like litigation to me.


  68. 68
    johng

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (9:53 am)

    WOW!

    George B:

    Thats the most solid information we’ve had.

    If true, they have a heck of a road ahead. Being in the business, I dont understand how they can re-invent all the processes they have to go through yet. To make one ESU a day, they would need something like a half-million square feet, a couple hundred employees, and about $100 million. IMHO

    Do you have the Phillips patent no? I’d like to look at it.


  69. 69
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (10:05 am)

    Hmmm … I wonder if EEStor has been talking to Georgia Tech researchers about their ultracapacitors in the past year. I suspect they have. They might be working at EEStor already for all I know. It looks like they might have a big breakthrough going in their work with barium titanate.

    “A new technique for creating films of barium titanate (BaTiO3) nanoparticles in a polymer matrix could allow fabrication of improved capacitors able to store TWICE as much energy as existing devices.”

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070426093428.htm

    Maybe one of those Georgia Tech researchers, Joe Perry, will become a “rock star of energy storage” in the next few years like Joe Perry is with Aerosmith. :)

    http://www.aerosmith-lyrics.com/files/JoePerry_solo_1.jpg


  70. 70
    johng

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (10:16 am)

    GM Volt Fan:

    The Georgia Tech work is with much lower permitivities.

    They (GT) are talking of getting a dielectric constant of 50, which is about double that 3M and DuPont (and others) have exhibited in their BT loaded polymer. Their voltage is about 50. They do it with nano-particles.

    Eestor, on thier polymer version, claim a dielectric constant of 20,000 with a working voltage of 3000 volts. A very different level.

    Understand, EEStor has two different technologies, both of which “blow away” the industry standards. The Film capacitor has a K (permitivity for practical purposes) of around 5, EEStor has 20,000.

    The BT multilayer capacitor industry has a range of dielectrics, but the only ones that can take that voltage have a K of about 100. Again, EEStore claims about 20,000.

    Isnt that amazing. One little company can outperform two major industries!


  71. 71
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (11:03 am)

    Me want 150 mpg extreme hybrid!

    “Now a secretive Texan company, using an exotic material, Barium Titanate, and which is well known to have a giant dielectric constant, claims another huge factor of improvement and that their ultra-super-capacitors even out perform the best batteries in energy storage as well.

    Have the Texans done it?

    Is it snake oil or sangria?

    The world IS waiting with baited breath for announcements and trials due this year. Watch this space!”

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/business/150-mpg-extreme-hybrids-.3838033.jp

    Maan …. I hope EEStor is “for real” and they can usher in a new era of energy storage. If they are, they really could change the world in a BIG way. Maybe that’s why they are being so damn secretive. Paranoid that OPEC and the big oil companies might try to bury their inventions? Jeez. Not a chance. The world is DYING to get something done about “peak oil”, gas prices and global warming and all the other problems that burning fossil fuels causes. Whatever company or individual makes the big breakthrough that puts us in practical 100% electric cars the soonest is going to be as rich and famous as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs probably … and in encyclopedias and history books like Edison, Einstein and Tesla, etc.

    It would be awesome to be able to have an electrical grid that is like the internet … an “electrical superhighway”. Just “download” however many kilowatts of cheap “clean energy” juice you need to your inexpensive ultracapacitor storage system in your garage at night and quick charge your 400+ mile range electric car anytime in 5 minutes.

    Is that an awesome “vision of the future” or what? OPEC and Big Oil executives would be horrified. No need for oil or liquid fuel infrastructure at all! Everyone else would be thrilled. I know the environmentalists and Mother Earth would love it. Al Gore wouldn’t know what to do with himself. He’d have to put together a huge “Earth Day” concert to celebrate or something. :)


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    George B.

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (3:15 pm)

    John G:

    U.S. Phillips Patent:
    http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5841625-claims.html

    I’m no patent lawyer, so this may have no bearing on the matter. I’m sure the Eestor patent supercedes this from a technical standpoint. If Eestor is watching this….please..throw us a bone here. The whole world is watching!!!


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    noel park

     

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    Apr 1st, 2008 (3:29 pm)

    #71 GM Volt Fan:

    I love your optimism and positive outlook. As much as i can be just the opposite, I have to agree with you. If it happens, it will be great. If not, we haven’t lost anything anyway. Bring it on!


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    Brian H

     

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    Apr 2nd, 2008 (2:52 pm)

    GM Volt Fan #61;
    The electric motor on those trucks looks less powerful than the one TeslaMotors has put in its 2-seater sports car! Of course, they’ve got a 365 HP diesel helping out …

    If you want some other competing electric storage news, Google SCiB.


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    Apr 3rd, 2008 (1:18 pm)

    George B

    I looked at that patent, it is nothing “special”. It is typical of that class of ceramics, high permitivity (15,500) but shows an 80% drop off in capacitance over its temperature range (-35 to 85°C). They applied 20 volts/micron to accelerate the failures.

    In comparison, Eestor CLAIMS a permitivity of 20,000 that can take 300 volts/micron rated, and by inference, will NOT drop off in temp or applied voltage.

    Course, if your earlier observation is correct, and they are only at the tape casting stage, they don’t know yet.

    So, the Phillips dielectric, (and any other manufacturer of MLC) would only have a permitivity of about 1000 or less at their use condition, if it survived at all.

    “Snake oil or Sangria?”


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    j. jacobs

     

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    Apr 4th, 2008 (11:01 pm)

    As a retired Lockheed Martin engineer I notice that my former employer is hooked up with eestor. That raises the question about whether or not the eestor technology is so important that the Federal Govt will try to delay the public access to it for some time so that we establish and maintain a lead against potential enemies in the realm of energy storage and production. Let your congressman know that you want this tech in your garage!!!
    I have a wind energy machine and would love to see the ZENN road capable vehicle in the garage. The salient fact to keep in mind is that in the US 75% of all driving takes place within 25 miles of the garage.
    Range is not a big problem for at least one car in your garage.


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    John Petros

     

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    Apr 9th, 2008 (11:34 pm)

    Check out the Wikipedia page on the capacitor Eestor has developed. It seems to me Lockheed Martin would not even have mentioned Eestor if the technology wasn`t for real. I`m hoping it is, and if it is fully developed, goodbye vehicle pollution, hello cleaner environment. : )
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor


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    Apr 12th, 2008 (10:03 am)

    Hi I hear allot of people dobting Zenn because they are not able to licence their current cars for sale or use in Canada. If they were keeping up on the news they would know the reason for this.

    Basically they do not go fast enogh for highway use.

    the eestor battery will solve this problome.

    Also the host vehicle is purchased from europe but Zenn has officially said that the host vehicle for the city zenn will be provided by another company hopefull noth american meaning GM Crysler or Ford. The latter is stricly speculation but a host car could quite posibly be assembled by one of the big three then outfitted by Zenn with an electric engine powered by eestore. This would automatically make it legally available in Canada by 2009.

    My guess?

    Watch the manufacturing news in Ontario. We need manufacturing jobs in GM shops at Oshawa and other cities. We could easily keep up with demand but can Zenn outfit the cars fast enogh.


  79. 79
    Dave

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    Jun 4th, 2008 (12:38 pm)

    Re ZENN / eestor battery

    54 kWh is tough. A typical new home has 200 amp service at 220 volts. Assume we use 150 amps at 220 volts. This is 33 kW. This is 54/33 = 1.63 hours, Not 5 min. 5 min is 640 kW — which is beyond the capability of the transformer serving a whole cluster of 6 to 10 homes.

    Also, if the min discharge time is 3 hours and the charging time is 5 min, then the internals of the battery have to be 36 times as heavy to stand the charging rate.

    Also to do an efficient charger one would want 3-phase service anyway.


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    Jun 11th, 2008 (8:01 am)

    I understand how the electric vehicles keep cool in the summer. But how will they keep warm in the winter without sucking the life out of the battery/cap? When charging will it run a little cabin heater? Anyone know the plan?

    I own a Prius and running the heater kills the mileage on short trips in cold winter weather. The engine needs to warm up completely so the heater works. (It is such a waste. There must be a better way.)


  81. 81
    Nick Sozo

     

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    Jul 1st, 2008 (3:16 pm)

    I admittedly have not read ALL of the posts, but after reading a couple of dozen, I wanted to make a statement. All those that say, “if this is so promising then why are “__ fill in the blank ___” pursuing lithium batteries”, haven’t been watching the trend. With lithium so promising why have they pursued flex fuel or ethanol fuels. They are not economical, as a matter of fact they have helped to decimate the economy. Something that with the midwest flooding we will feel dearly now. So why shouldn’t they also pursue something else and spend millions on something else that is just a fleeting band-aid.


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    Rydogg

     

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    Jul 1st, 2008 (5:08 pm)

    Ok, ok ok, I’ve seen enough of you speculators out there that have NO idea what you’re talking about. I’ll pick on the main thing that people seem to be harping on without READING the article.

    Yes it said that you CAN recharge the unit (which is 52+kwh) in 5 minutes…BUT YOU CAN NOT DO IT FROM HOME, the article never claimed that it can be done from home so quit harping on it.

    The capacitor operates at 3.5kV and at that voltage it would take 178.3 Amps to recharge it in 5 minutes. BUT ONLY FROM A SPECIAL CHARGING UNIT…No standard household power can handle that. It would be more likely that it would recharge over night on your 220VAC line at 20 amps for about 12 hours (from completely empty to topped off.

    Just to be clear, 52kwh (that the EESTor unit claims it holds) is a LOT more power than any current battery electric car has on board NOW or anywhere in the past. Most Lithium Ion and NMH battery packs only hold a small percentage of this power… and weigh a TON (literally).

    Please, for the love of God, no more comments about NOT being able to charge this thing at home in 5 minutes. You’ve got brains and eyes people, lets use them!


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    jeremy

     

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    Jul 2nd, 2008 (11:50 pm)

    If they can deliver what they claim it could be game changing. If not it could be a nice supplement to quickly recover regenerative breaking power in conjunction with a more traditional type of battery be it LI-ION or something yet to be developed. Oh and If a properly designed and insulated charging receptical were developed for away from home charging “stations” 3500v wouldn’t be a significant danger. Obviously it would need some sort of failsafe break away just like traditional fuel pumps have now. Maybe even some sort of insulated pad that covers and insulates the whole parking/charging area from ground as an additional failsafe too prevent joe schmoe from flash frying himeself incase all the other safety measures failed.


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    Marvin Brecht

     

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    Jul 3rd, 2008 (11:08 pm)

    One way to charge at home would be using a step up transformer
    ( i.e. 220 > 3500+ VAC) and use the high voltage to slow charge a home ultracapacitor system. Once charged, this home system could rapid charge the vehicle ultracapacitors. Maybe not economically efficient, but it is a way to do it. (I always get a kick from people who say you “can’t” do something.)


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    Rich Rosenthal

     

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    Jul 8th, 2008 (4:16 pm)

    Home charging would need to be done with stepped up voltages and be capable of delivering high current. The connectors and safety considerations are not trivial. These things need to be kid proof, splash proof, and not generate any sparks. I can foresee that the charging scheme may require integration with the structure and certified installation. At 3500 volts this is like working with power lines you would normally find on top of power poles.


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    Rydogg

     

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    Jul 9th, 2008 (6:33 am)

    Rich,
    Ideally you would have the transformer on-board the car such that you could simply plug in your car directly to the 115V or 230V sockets maximizing it’s “kid proof”-ness. Requiring a ‘special’ charging station would drastically decrease your ability to go anywhere without a charge station, whereas 115-230V outlets are everywhere.


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    vlad

     

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    Sep 14th, 2008 (4:41 am)

    Funny that nobody even mentioned the core question of stability of such an energy storage. Imagine some 50 kW-h of energy tightly packed into 33 L volume! The system is extremely unstable: any occasional leakage to ground would bring the device to immediate warming-up to real high temps – with disastrous effects. In fact, a powerful blast could take place any moment; are you morally ready to make use of such a bomb in everyday practice?
    There are merely no safe ways of that dense energy packing in a capacitor; Mother Nature’s laws. Let’s think twice before…


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    Anadultmale

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (7:41 pm)

    News that the web site reuters.com has stated that ‘EEStor Inc, has secured a U.S. patent for its battery,’ Not a battery at all. But a ultra capacitor. The current equals the size of the capacitor, times the voltage changed, divided by the time it discharged. This will be as big of an invention for power as the airplane was for travel. Yes I am an Electronic Engineer. Finally the electrons will flow big time.


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    paulus

     

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    Jan 15th, 2009 (8:13 pm)

    me la schuelte


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    Dove

     

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    Jan 23rd, 2009 (3:21 pm)

    Well … if I were to have a http://www.nanosolar.com paint … hopefully the new default paint colour on my next car … and this capacator … it would be grand. Perhaps someone would figure out a ‘perpetual’ … (I say that jokingly … Carnot effiency) … generator using a halbach array and herbsmithite. With new materials science tomorrow is looking more like the book ‘The Diamond Age’.


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    Bryan

     

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    Feb 18th, 2009 (8:20 pm)

    Dove has touched on a marriage of technologies I have been drooling over for years. I would add wind turbine to that mix. Yes… all to power an electric vehicle — without stopping at a charging station.

    The vehicle I am describing is a self contained/reliant recreational vehicle (motor home). These vehicles are already lightweight considering their volume. This would allow maximum surface area for solar charging and comparatively lower power consumption. (compared to a freight vehicle of similar volume). However, the solar technology I am referring to also utilizes the infrared specrum as well as the visible.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

    Of course all this dreaming is pointless if EEStore doesn’t come through with this ultracap.


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    joemama

     

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    May 31st, 2009 (8:44 am)

    Eestore is a scam and a sham folks. Good greif. They have never been able to produce a working prototype ! Please keep repeating this to yourself, until the lights come on. Please.

    They had an idea, and they thought they could make it work. But, they can’t seem to make it work. Hence, no working prototype. Now they are just scamming us with ‘hopeful’ reports, and eating up investment dollars. Five years from now, they will still be giving us excuses, and lies. It is a shame that they are not more honest.

    Repeat…….. they don’t have a working prototype to test, because they can’t get it to work !


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    Michael

     

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    Jul 1st, 2009 (8:31 pm)

    I came across your site while searching on MSN and have now added you to my rss reader. I Just though i should say


  94. 94
    Ray Lambert

     

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    Aug 9th, 2009 (6:46 pm)

    Eestor, has proven its product, Zenn has increased its funding, DARPA and Lockhead is on board, and this thing is moving forward. I still want to see it in a product, but it now seems likely, Eestor is for real.


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    Edgeman

     

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    Sep 6th, 2009 (2:31 pm)

    I’ve read all your comments with interest, Fall 2009 is upon us and we will see what will develop in the next few months ….. But I do have to leave you with my opinion … do you really think that an company like ZENN that has invested milions of dollars haven’t been testing this PowerCell from EEStor …. may I remind you that they are partners, who else would be testing this in prototype vehicles right now & in the past …. I think that these people (EEStor) have taken lessons from Apple, they don’t announce anything until they are ready to release the product. I’m sure DARPA and Lockhead are on a agreement NOT to release any information to anybody.

    As to all the other provinces in Canada they are followers NOT leaders, they wait until Ontario & Quebec passes legislation so the ZENN automobiles can ride their roads, then they like the sheep they are will follow as well.

    As all of you I’m hoping that they will come thru with this powercell and make this planet a little more GREEN


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    dick

     

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    Nov 17th, 2009 (12:20 pm)

    Ray Lambert: Eestor, has proven its product, Zenn has increased its funding, DARPA and Lockhead is on board, and this thing is moving forward. I still want to see it in a product, but it now seems likely, Eestor is for real.  (Quote)

    How have they proven their product? get real. SCAM!