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At $40,000 the Volt Would Result in No Profit for GM

March 25th, 2008 | Posted in: Financial

An article was just published by Businessweek by way of MSNBC, that discussed automakers’ efforts and requirements to be able to reach the new 2020 CAFE standards.

In it Bob Lutz was mentioned discussing the Chevy Volt. Here is a quote from the article:

“The company once targeted $30,000 as the price for a Chevy Volt. But the cost of developing the technology is making that an unreachable dream. Lutz now figures a more realistic price for the Volt would be about $48,000. He reckons that $40,000 might be possible, without making any profit. Only government tax incentives could take the price tag nearer to $30,000. ”

Source (MSNBC)

Lets not get too carried away because it seems major media often publishes errors about the Volt. In fact, on the same day as well, USA Today’s automotive writer James Healey, actually described the Volt as a two-seater! The article was actually about Mercedes’ plans to introduce electric Smarts into the U.S in 2 to 3 years. Keep in mind that USA Today is the highest circulation newspaper in the country.

Source (USA Today)

Posted by: Lyle

162 Responses to “At $40,000 the Volt Would Result in No Profit for GM”

Brian M Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:32 am

Is there a direct quote from Lutz? If not I call BS.

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Nick Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 1:53 am

It sounds like $40k factors in the development cost. But it sounds like they planted to just eat a lot of that, anyway, like Toyota did with the early Prius.

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Mike G. Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:17 am

Note to GM:
I am NEVER going to buy a volt! Why simply because I am not in the market for that type of car(not talking about the power train). I am a regular here visiting most every day not because I am a big fan of GM but because I am a fan of this technology.

Here is my opinion on the pricing. When the Volt first comes out you can price it low or high and sell out all production. Even though I am not in the market I believe it would be smart to bring the price down into the loss column for a couple of reason.

When the car is released it will generate an image of GM products that will carry into the future. By 2012 the GM is going to have a whole lot of competition for all the other manufactures. If the perception is that GM came out with this technology first and GM is expensive, then people will look to the companies like KIA and Toyota when it comes to buying an E-REV for a good bit less…. even if less isn’t a reality anymore.

Conversely if it is priced at a loss and then the cost of production comes down you will have BOTH the impression of being there first AND being there at a competitive price. [b]To WIN you need BOTH![/b]

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mmcc Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 5:46 am

Ouch. Not good news.

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GM Nothonest Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:26 am

This kind of stuff is well planned by GM to say this one day: Due to the high cost of R&D, no demand and battery failure, we decide NOt to pursue this project. However, we have a good news: Ladies and gentleman, here is the 2010 Chevy Suburban, which delivers 15 mpg compare to 14 mpg of the 2009 edition. We have used the technology derived from the Volt project and dramatically improved the fuel economy and make US less reliant on foreign oil. One thing always seems to be truthful: The louder guy in the room often under deliver while the quite guy is smirking and work hard in Aichi, Japan.

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Dr. Ed Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:32 am

Gentlemen don’t panic! The $40,000 is probably not far off the mark, if you think of over 3 years of development and making only 10,000 Volts. The $40,000 is very dependent on the volume. If GM makes 1,000,000 Volts the breakeven point is very different. Also the breakeven will change if the research cost is spread over the entire product line. GM wants to sell a million Volts so the MSRP certainly will be far less than $40,000, and maybe under $35,000.

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Spin Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:32 am

30 is my number. If I can get it for that, I’m in. I don’t think it will ever be a high volume vehicle at 40.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:33 am

I don’t know what happened to my original message, so I am typing it over again. This is the first time we have heard $48,000, but not the first time that the press has messed something up. Let’s wait until we hear more about it and not bash GM yet. As the news comes out and it turns out that the $48K number is bogus, then we can bash the media.

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Estero Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:36 am

Ouch is right! But, I’ll remain hopeful for a while longer.

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Jim I Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:44 am

Political posturing. If the auto manufacturers (with GM speaking first, since they are further along in the development cycle) can get the US Government to implement a credit of $10K per vehicle in time for the 2010 release date, then it is $10K per vehicle they will get to keep, but we are still at the original target price of ~$30K.

Plus, they get to see at what point we all simply say "no way"!

I only say all of this because at this point in time, with the drivetrain, battery, software, exterior, and interior designs not yet finalized and work on the assembly plant not even started, how anyone could have a clue what the "hard" actual costs are going to be? And I can not believe that GM expects to recover ALL of the development costs for the E-REV platform in the first 10K units released in 2010. That just makes no long term sense at all.

If GM wants to know my high price point, why don’t they just ask? For me, it is $40K out the door. But at that price, it has to be Supercar, not some KISS based, no frills, electric Vega. If that is what is produced, then my number falls back to "comfortably under $28K".

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Ter Meenal Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:45 am

I have seen other companies pull the same stunts prior to a new product launch. What they are doing is classic, float a new high price out, (sort of released in an unofficial way but by someone official), which is absurdly high and is almost guaranteed to cause a lot of their hopeful early adopters to react negatively. Then they announce that the recently stated price was not correct but that they expect the product to come in at a new price of ‘x’ where ‘x’ is lower than the just quoted ‘high’ price but is still much higher than originally expected. Thus they attempt to condition their target market to accept a price which is now much higher than the starting price.

For proof of this take a look at the stages of the price increases that the Volt has gone through. 1) Originally stated to be "…south of 30,000…." 2) Then a while later it was stated that it could be nearer 40,000. 3) Then a statement appeared from Lutz indicating that it would be around 35,000. 4) And now we are hearing that it may be around 48,000.

Congratulations GM, you’ve just priced yourself out of reach of the average consumer and into the land of the wealthy who would buy it as a toy 3rd car. To have been successful you needed to have nailed the price where approximately 70-75 percent of the car buyers could afford it.

Ter

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Will Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:00 am

Is there a quote from Lutz? Didn’t we just see an article the other day about how GM is planning to take a loss at first? I think the 48k figure is too high, just like the under 30k figure was too low. This is a revolutionary car, and until GM can spread the overall costs out over the entire eflex family (they have to start selling more than one model for that to happen) the volt will be a little pricey. So what. So were DVD players when they first came out. Now you can get one for 39 bucks.

Keep up the good work GM, I’m still patiently waiting for my volt.

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pdt Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:01 am

My guess: $35k and they will lose money due to the low volume of the many very new types of parts they are going to be ordering from suppliers, driving up costs. They are going to argue that the extra $10K for the batteries will be recovered in reduced fuel costs over the vehicle lifetime, which will probably be true if gas is $4/gallon.You can’t factor in development costs into the price of the first 10K vehicles. Development costs have to be recovered over many years of production at high volumes.

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Statik Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:01 am

Is there no learning curve at all on this site? Here’s what we know…for sure.

1.) GM is producing the Volt

2.) GM is a exaggerator and a liar

So if you want a Volt, HERE IT IS –> you are going to have to wait (a long time)…and pay (a lot of money). The vehicle will make no sense….other than you are driving a electric car (which for many of us, is really all we care about). As said before, they are using the Volt’s good vibes (and us) to generate publicity to sell ridiculous ‘hybrids’

This GM vs Toyota Hybrid war kind of reminds me of the SNL exaggerating skit:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/06/06spenelope.phtml

Gina: Yeah I have a card for everyone to sign, some of you might not know this but Mrs. Jacob’s 15 year old cat Whiskers Magee passed away last week…

Penelope: My cat passed away tooo sooo his name was whiskers magee the first sooo, he was 17 years old so just a little bit older than her cat soo it died a few minutes ago too sooo just effects me more soo.

Lisa: That cat was like a child to her.

Penelope: my cat was my child I was pregnant with my cat… I gave birth to it sooo I had my cat baby in the hospital and I had my cat baby shower soo a lot of people there soo.

PS) What car exactly is GM making money on these days? They lost 38 billion in ‘07, 2 billion in ‘06, 10 billion in ‘05

Just pray they last long enough to get this car at all. Looks like they’ve got enough cash to last just about 2 years. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gm-down-to-its-last-34b/

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Thom Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:23 am

I really hope this is a mistake because my upper limit for this car is no more than $40,000 and that itself is streatching it.

Just calculated my monthly payments (6 year loan, probably unrealistically favorable 2% interest rate) at different price points. I won’t have anything to trade in because my current 2002 car will be fully depreciated by the time the Volt comes out. I purposely leave any mention of a tax rebate out because it is unlikely that that the federal rebate will exceed the cost of tax, title and license at the state level which I also don’t attempt to bake in here.

Volt Price                       Monthly Payments
=========                 ===============30,000                          442.5135,000                          516.2740,000                          590.0248,000                          708.02

Considering that I fill up my car once a week, it looks to me that any financial benefit of driving the Volt vs my current $32,000 car would be lost for the first 6 years at current gas prices.  When I factor in the the additional auto insurance required to protect this extra $16,000 investment, the car has no economic advantage for me at the $48,000 price point and really only puts me at a break-even around $40,000.

Sure there are other reasons for me to buy a car, but it gets a lot harder to justify this to my wife considering that I’m not yet fully funding our retirement accounts or our kids college savings accounts yet.

Those that fill up 2 times a week would at least break even at $48,000 for those first 6 years.

Or course, I guess I can defer more payments to later years by leasing to own since I’m able to keep my miles down. I can also start saving now — but that kind of financial wizardry doesn’t alter the true economic value of the car — just when I may opt to pay for it. Sure hope that those batteries really last 10 years instead of just 8.

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Thom Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:27 am

Web site didn’t retain my returns.
$30K Principle = $442.51 in monthly payments.
$35k Principle = $516.27 in monthly payments.
$40k Principle = $590.02 in monthly payments.
$48k Principle = $708.02 in monthly payments.

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Ziv Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:45 am

Business Week isn’t a magazine I look to for accurate reporting, and Lutz isn’t quoted as saying that the Volt would be selling for $48,000, so I am not that stressed by the article, but I am begining doubt that GM is going to deliver the goods with the Volt. Lutz can’t be this stupid, this series of gaffes are unbelievable, he must be preparing the market for an overpriced car. If they want to sell more than 10,000 or 20,000 a year, the car has to be less than $30,000.
Thom’s numbers are good evidence that the vast majority of Americans simply won’t be able to afford a $40,000 Volt, even with $4.00 a gallon gasoline, and as he said, he was using a fantastic interest rate which makes the payment artificially low. We can’t, and GM can’t, rely on the government to make up the difference. If GM won’t deliver a car that we can plug in, some other company will, and unfortunately, that company will probably have a headquarters in Japan or Europe.

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Dave B Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:45 am

Way too early to be discussing costs… I know people are asking GM every chance they get, but why does Lutz entertain it? Seems like a really good way to fuel the fire. How could they possibly know costs when they don’t know the components, technology, etc.?

JUST WAIT A FEW–MAYBE TEN MONTHS.

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Eric Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:57 am

What we really need is for Congress to step up like it did for the hybrids, and offer significant tax credits for the first X number of production PHEV’s from each company of big auto.

The credit should be relative to the benefit (fuel reduction) of the car, similar to the hybrid credits. With a car that uses zero gasoline under 40 miles, I don’t think $10,000 would be an unreasonable credit to offer for the first, say, 50,000 vehicles, and then decrease to 75%, 50%, etc. of that initial credit.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 8:05 am

It all depends on the assumed volume of sales, sale price and assumed investment by GM.

I thought I heard Bob Lutz say they were spending $400 million developing the Volt, so if they intend to sell 10,000 of them, then the cost is $40,000, so any price equal or lower than that would be unprofitable.

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nasaman Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 8:30 am

15, 16 Thom; 18 Dave B…..

Your comments here, with projected monthly payment numbers including financing costs are very helpful, Thom!!! BTW, a 2% interest rate isn’t completely unrealistic —as I think I mentioned to you at VoltNation in NYC, I just bought a new CUV* & financed it through GMAC at 2.9% ….two other banks couldn’t even come close, thank’s to the dealer’s factory-sanctioned "march madness" promotion.

And Dave, you’re absolutely right when you say, "How could they possibly know costs when they don’t know the components, technology, etc.?" —I bought one of the very first Camaro Z-28’s right after its complete redesign in 1982 and my dealer in California said he had a very senior, knowledgeable inside source at the nearby Van Nuys Camaro factory who said, "we have NO idea what these cars are costing us, and we won’t know until several thousand have come off the line!"

*My new CUV is an ‘08 Saturn Vue with the new body style (shared by the Caddy Provoq concept) —a car I’ll trade for the plug-in version to park alongside my plug-in Volt in 2010/011. (The Vue’s materials, fit & finish are impeccable, inside & out, and it handles like my daughter’s CUV, a BMW X5!)

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GXT Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 8:33 am

Lutz shoots his mouth off all the time. I don’t doubt he said it. The good news is that he seems to usually be wrong. The bad news is that he could just as easily still be low.

It sure looks like GM brass pulled the Volt out of their Toyota-Envy bin and asked the PR team for input before the EV1 team. It is painfully obvious that they had NO clue at all about how to build such a vehicle or if it could be built. The only thing they were sure of was the range and that was based on flawed logic operating in a vacuum.

Note to GM: You start off with a small battery/range and increase as the price comes down. Of course, that means you have to research what is possible and feasible before you put a commercial on TV claiming range X.

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Frustrated Would-Be Volt Buyer Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 8:52 am

Call me cynical. It feels like a typical car dealer scam. First, he gives me the low-ball price, “$30,000.” Okay, it’s more than I’ve ever paid for a car in my life, but I guess maybe I can swing it. I really want this car. “Where do I sign?” (Too fast! I was too eager. He knows I really want this car.)

The dealer disappears in the back office for a while, and comes back. “I’m sorry. My boss tells me I can’t sell it to you for $30,000, he says it will have to be ‘closer to $40,000.’”

“How much ‘closer to $40,000!?’” I ask, thinking, “can I possibly make that happen?” My friend the car dealer says, “Well, I’m pretty sure it won’t be much over $30,000. We’ll lose our shirt, but we really want to sell you this car.”

“Oh, okay…” It’s nice to know he’s on my side. I guess I won’t bolt out the door yet. He disappears to get a firmer number. “Yeah, alright, my boss says it’ll be about $40,000 (just like I said.) Yup, we’re losing our shirt on this!”

“Now wait a second! You said ‘about $30,000!’” “Did I? If I did, I’m sorry. That was just a guess. You know how bosses are…”

“Okay, yeah, I understand. Alright… I guess maybe I can make $40,000.” “Great! Thanks for understanding. Let me go get the paperwork.” He disappears into the back again, and when he comes back, he’s got an agreement with the number $48,000 on it.

“Here you go! ‘Just about $40,000.’” “Now come on! The way you got me interested in this car was by telling me you could sell it to me for ‘around $30,000.’ Now you tell me it’s going to cost me %60 more than that!? That’s not even close!” “Well, that’s really the best we can do! Like I said, ‘We’re losing our shirt on this deal!’”

I turn on my heel to walk out of the showroom, and he says “Okay, 45,000! But I’m losing my shirt on this! …”

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Thom Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:09 am

Thanks NASAMAN both for the positive response and for the new umbrella [no trouble to send it, I just haven't been to the post office in the last week -- if my meeting gets out on-time I'll be mailing it today].

Don’t forget that talking price and costs are two different things. Price represents the willingness of consumers to buy a certain volume of a product and is based upon the utility gained from the product. The economic price curve has nothing to do with how difficult or costly it is to actually build the product.

Many things still are pending that will determine final total costs: How many and how big of factories are built. tradeoffs of automation vs wages, types of wages required (skilled vs. unskilled; union, vs non-union), the size of marketing and promotion [the more we work on word of mouth, the smaller the budget that is requried], the price that GM must pay suppliers for components, etc.

Agree there are too many open questions to have a true understanding of costs; but talking about price and our willingness to buy at various price points so that GM has a better feel for that side of the supply/demand equation is not a bad thing.

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mike jacobs Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:10 am

First post for me. I cant afford 40 either. if they dont keep the price around 30 then they wont have the volume they need. the oil co. wont have to worry about this car hurting them any if is a low volume car. here is lyle on MSN http://video.msn.com/dw.aspx?mkt=en-us&rf=http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/NewYork2008/video_portal.aspx&vid=99e74da4-6226-4c7a-ad91-f4be1fd87f23&t=c520&rf=http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/NewYork2008/video_portal.aspx

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Firefly Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:10 am

You’ve got to be absolutely nuts if you believe that this is true at this point. 1st of all, BusinessWeek is just that-weekly (or weakly) speculation of businesses, not the auto industry. Next thing they’ll be telling us is that Starbucks will be selling espresso for 15.00 per cup because of a Valdez family revolt in Colombia. C’mon, guys. Think. Everyone who has half an idea of economics understands this. If GM wants to be competitive in a market that is practically in its infancy, they know that on the 1st so-many thousand units they WILL have a loss. At 40k+, they would miss their target customers entirely, causing apathy for them in the future. Can’t risk that.

Then there’s CAFE which states (I hope I got this right) that by 2020 the corporate average has to be 35 mpg. If I understand this correctly, that doesn’t mean that everything they sell has to be a Volt, it simply means that if you add the mileage values of each car together and then divide tham by the number of vehicles, the average has to equal or better the CAFE standard for that year. Also, NHTSA fines the automaker for every infraction. GM cannot at this point stand to lose any more profit.

Then the EV-1 fiasco left a bitter taste in the mouths of anyone who ever trusted GM to deliver on a project of this scope. With a slightly damaged reputation, they cannot afford the backlash. I believe GM is serious to deliver, but once again, you cannot possibly expect anyone to know the price of a car that the platform has never before existed. Microsoft lost money on EVERY Xbox it made, but you will not go into a Wal-Mart or GameStop and not see one. Let the speculators on Wall St. say what they want. After all, they’re the ones who halfway got us into this economic train wreck we’re in. So you’re gonna believe them?

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nasaman Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:12 am

22 GXT….

I have to respectfully disgree when you say, "It is painfully obvious that they had NO clue at all about how to build such a vehicle or if it could be built. The only thing they were sure of was the range and that was based on flawed logic operating in a vacuum." —WRONG!

I’m a physicist & electrical engineer (as well as a car enthusiast) and in my 45-year career have chaired hundreds of rigorous design reviews of complex space hardware & software, from black boxes to complete spacecraft. One thing these hundreds of reviews had in common is that they all involved missions that had NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE and employed hardware/software approaches that had NEVER BEEN USED BEFORE —and the countless missions they supported (Apollo, near-earth satellites, Shuttle, Int’l Space Station, etc) were all successful!*

Before and after the formal session at VoltNation I spoke at length with the key designers & engineers on Volt (and recorded ALL of those conversations, some hours in length, all of which I’ve reviewed.) I assure you GM had MUCH MORE than mere clues before the actual design efforts even got under way and that they are extremely talented, highly motivated people who I believe number among the "best & brightest" people in the automotive industry. Remember, GM has the backing of the board of directors in establishing the EFLEX program in general & the Volt in particular as the "number one priority throughout GM globally", as they stated publically in NYC!

*However, the first launch of a communications satellite I was responsible for experienced a Delta II launch vehicle partial failure that left the satellite in an unusable low orbit; by expending some hydrazine fuel to lift the satellite to it’s intended geosynchronous orbit, we were able to salvage the mission, although the mission lifetime was shortened somewhat due expenditure of some of the hydrazine needed for on-orbit station keeping.

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Firefly Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:15 am

Besides, if that were the case, then GM would’ve lied to Lyle, you, me and the other 9,997 people who’ve committed interest in the Volt. Trust your own knowledge of the auto industry, not that of a stockbroker who doesn’t know a Limited-Slip Differential from a illegal narcotic. (By the way, everybody-Happy Late Easter)

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Firefly Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:18 am

Nasaman speaks for me as well with comment #27

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Tim Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:37 am

Wait-N-See! There is still a long road ahead.

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Charlie H Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:40 am

26 – Firefly,

The market is no longer in its infancy. The Prius is in its 8th year of US sales. Toyota has several models of hybrids. Ford has one. Honda has one. Nissan has one. By late 2010, a new generation of Prius will likely be on the road and I believe Honda will have a new introduction, too (more of a Prius-like purpose-built vehicle design than a hybridized variant of an existing product).

People are well conditioned to accept hybrid technology and are now looking for value in this market. If the Volt has a high price tag, it’s going to be a very tough sell. GM’s got to be creative in managing costs.

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John Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:42 am

I wonder how many of the more expensive components ( battery , electric motor ) will be imported . What will the Dollar be worth vs. other currencies by 2010 ? Was any of that discussed last week ? Falling Dollar may have already contributed to moving price target ?

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Jim I Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:43 am

nasaman #27:
I agree with everything you have to say, but there is one major difference between what GM is doing and what NASA is asked to do by the US government:
GM has to report to the share holders, who have invested their money, and expect a return on that investment. That simple fact has to make them think differently than an engineer at NASA, who just has to get the job done, regardless of the costs.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:47 am

I think a LOT depends on where gas prices are going to be in 2010. If gas is $5/gallon or more in 2010, I bet a lot of people will stretch their budgets with higher car payments than they are used to. A lot of people would do it just for the satisfaction of sticking it to OPEC and the big oil companies. I can visualize a lot of Volt owners with big grins on their faces as they pass gas stations on their commutes to work every day.

I think with some good incentives from the government and GM doing it’s best to put out a high quality Volt at a good price, they’ll somehow manage to keep it under $40,000. Lutz may be pretty close to the final price with incentives …. around $35,000. Maybe they’ll blow everyone’s minds and get it down to $30,000. Let’s hope so. I want these cars to be a huge hit. GM will get a LOT of invaluable prestige and good press if the Volt is a smash hit with car reviewers and everyone else.

People love to have a choice. With gas prices, people don’t have that choice. It’s either pay it or take a bus or something. Americans in particular aren’t going to give up the freedom of having their cars, SUVs and trucks anytime soon. The whole American lifestyle depends on the freedom we get from our cars and trucks. It’s like football, baseball and hot apple pie and all that. We’ll work hard to keep it.

SUV and truck owners ought to be cheering GM on bigtime for getting into hybrid technology in a big way like they are now. In maybe 5-10 years, battery prices will come way down and everyone can "have their cake and eat it too" …. reliable 250+ horsepower SUVs and trucks that run on clean, relatively inexpensive energy … more electricity and a lot less damned gasoline. In 5-10 years from now, the SUVs and trucks will probably be much lighter but just as tough and safe and so forth …. because of cheaper, advanced lightweight materials like carbon fiber, aluminum, high strength steel, etc.
People need to think about the "value equation" and "total costs of ownership" with cars like the Volt. The maintenance costs for things like oil, timing belts, oil filters will be a lot lower. Since electric motors are generally much more reliable than mechanical ICE engines/transmissions, you are going to see some very nice reviews from Consumer Reports about quality and reliability.

When you don’t have to change your oil every 3,000 miles, it’s going to make cars like the Volt have a lot less wear and tear. I bet more people screw up their cars and trucks than you’d think purely because they don’t seem to get around to changing their oil and filter at a Jiffy Lube or whatever. Convenient, 30 minute Jiffy Lube oil change places aren’t exactly close by for everyone you know. Some people in rural areas still have to do it themselves you know. With the Volt, people will manage to get the scheduled maintenance for the ICE range extender done once or twice a year. Every little old lady in America could get that taken care of when it is time to do emissions inspection (which will be interesting to see if that is even required for the Volt).

The less you have to rely on the owner to maintain the car, the better the "value equation" is going to be. Resale values will be higher and all that good stuff. That’s why Hondas and Toyotas have been popular. Until recently, they have tended to maintain their value over time better than the Big Three Detroit carmakers. GM needs to try to do that bigtime with the Volt. I want to see GM win lots of those Consumer Reports, J.D. Power, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend awards for quality, value, initial quality, and reliablity, etc.

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BillR Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:49 am

#26 Firefly

I agree with the CAFE discussion, and I’m sure this puts GM in a dilemma.

I’m sure GM still wants to sell trucks and SUV’s. Even with 2-mode and smaller engines, theses large vehicles will be challenged to get 35 mpg. Therefore, by selling the Volt in large numbers, they still may be able to meet the CAFE standards.

However, without the right pricing, the Volt will not sell in large numbers. Therefore, I don’t believe anything that is said regarding Volt pricing at this stage of the game.

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Ray Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:50 am

Ok Lets talk costing… do not all the "new" hybrids for GM use the same "motors" that the Volt will be using… The only additional costs involved with this project will be with the battery and its’ "software" and bit of hardware to put it all together.. 90 per cent of the parts are probably "in stock". It is the body and interiors that will have to be produced. Not a big deal as GM already would have the locked in design by now and it could be a retool in a single plant… 6 months to set up and get into production.
You are hearing about 3rd party companies doing "electric" crossovers to your current vehicle for $6,ooo – $8000. Granted the battery life may be shorter but… if I converted my 07 Maxx to the "electric" version for say $8000.00 and drove it for another 5 years… My costs would be recovered in 3 years or so with just the gas savings.. There is so much BS and fear mongering over the pricing that GM… if they are not careful… will be not be selling the Volt except as a "rich boy toy" Come On People… GM Just give us some STRAIGHT Facts… not speculation….

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Greg Taylor Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:58 am

40k is just too much. I really hope that GM considers a slightly scaled back version with a 20 mile all electric range. That would cut the battery cost in half and still allow many drivers to commute on electric power only. Throw in solar panels built into the roof and maybe on a good sunny day you could get a few extras miles for free.

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SteveF Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:58 am

One of the values of the GM Volt and what makes it unique compared to Telsa and other specific EV companies is the potential pricing. The whole message of making a Chevy Volt and not a Cadillac Volt was that customers expect a Chevy car to be within $20K to 30K and not $40K. If GM would of announced the initial vehicle will be a Cadillac, then customers would expect and accept a $40K price and it would expect it to be smaller volume vehicle. So GM needs to figure out their market position. I fully understand the pricing complexity and return on investment issues, but the message of calling it a Chevy and pricing it around $40K for small number does not add up. It could result in negative market reaction based on expectation of the brand name.

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OhmExcited Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:09 am

Competition will solve this problem for us in the long run.

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Adam Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:17 am

1st of all I like GM and I would with them if the company would be runed by smart leaders… it is not!

Wake up people! GM has tons of suvs, pick-ups and other things they call car on every dealers’ lot to sell first.. it is not their interest to bring out a shiny new car on low price which runs on electricity. These people ruined their own business in order to get more – temporaily – profit for the bosses. The CEOs and chiefs couldn’t care less about a car which uses only a few drops of gas.
Americans are EXTREMELY naive. They swallow everything. This whole Volt thing is nothing but advertisement for GM. Just think a sec., if Honda, Nissan could come out with a hybrid how come GM couldn’t so far? They do not want to! They already had the EV. They got scared or they had been shut down from above, as they realized if the people will find out that they can buy an EV who will buy the pickups? Who will buy the gas? The country cannot afford to loose billions of dollar profit.
They want to sell gas cars as they are connected to BIG-OIL unlike the Japanese who are interested in selling more cars.
40K for a hybrid?? Prius is soon to be out with a plug in version for less than 30, with a redesigned body. Volt has no chance unless it is sold for less or about the same as the prius.
Until the Volt is out check the cars in Europe. Look up their mpg! Those are gas cars not hybrids. See the vw golf tdi, or a fiat bravo and there are tons more.. they do 40-50 mpg easy. How many of those you can see here? NONE.
GM needs a REAL revolution to survive.
Someone should fire all the idiots in main positions who has less than an IQ of 140. Hire only the best people for marketing. So far their strategy is a joke. The design department is another one. Send some people to Japan, Europe and learn! Japanese used this many times. They learned from the leaders in the field (this is not the US anymore, so stop kidding yourself) then reverse engineer what they had and made it better, cheaper, more interesting.
If GM will not change their attitude they will be washed out of their own market. (no problem for the CEO’s though.. they will get a bonus )

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Grizzly Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:32 am

There is no mention whatsoever what volume this price is based on. We know there will only be 10K released the first year. And as has been mentioned we know that GM plans to take a loss as did Toyota in the beginning with the Prius. So my take is that there are just too many unknown variables to worry much about an article like that.

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Andy Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:35 am

I would gladly pay $48k if they release something resembling the Concept Volt. I guess it’s a small price to pay to stop sending money to rouge nations who are using the oil revenue that we send them to sponsor terror and buy up American companies that have been weakened by the slowing economy (and are thus devalued and cheaper to buy up). Add to this the fact that they helped create the problems with the economy (we, obviously, are most to blame), and I am pretty sure they are aware of what they have done. A weak US economy is great for our enemies. In a couple of decades, we will all work for companies owned by our enemies that they purchased with our money. In the words of Warren Buffet, we will be "colonized by purchase rather than by conquest."Sorry for the political rant. All that being said, if Chevy releases a $50k electric Cobalt, I will buy another plug-in, which will almost certainly be offered by a competitor, and watch GM file bankruptcy and be bought up by the same tyrants that are investing in the rest of America. If they do it right, however, they will revolutionize the industry, and I will be their biggest advocate. Let’s just hope they don’t strip any more features while at the same time adding to the cost. I can handle paying more if I am getting more, but things don’t seem to be looking like this is going to be the sporty/luxury car I had hoped for. I know most here disagree and would settle for manual windows and no windshield wipers, but I fall into the non-price-sensitive category of buyer; I will pay $50k for a car that makes me want to drive it, but I do expect some creature comforts for my $50k. I’m still a fan, but my faith is tested anytime I hear anything new about the Volt: it usually involves higher prices, fewer features, complete redesigns of the car I fell in love with, or delayed road tests. I would just like some good news for a change. I know, I know: the batteries seem to be working like they should, and I should rejoice at that. I know it is a major victory, but considering GM has already committed to building some version of the Volt, I think working batteries should be a given at this point. That’s it for today. I’m braced for the response for my unpopular positions….

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Spin Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am

Give me the option for an ICE delete. Without all that extra weight, the range will probably go up to 50 miles. If I have to go more than 50 miles I’ll use my other car.

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nasaman Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:48 am

33JimI….

I don’t want to belabor the point, Jim, but unlimited NASA & contractor budgets is a popular misconception. Although in the early days of the space program CPFF (cost plus fixed fee) development contracts were common, by the mid 1960’s virtually every NASA contract became FFP (firm fixed price) or a variant of FFP. Also, by far most of the design & construction of space hardware/software is done by NASA’s contractors, not by NASA agencies themselves. NASA people conceive, specify & design-review most equipment —this was true of the Apollo program, Shuttle & the Int’l Space Station as well as a multitude of other high-risk spacecraft). NASA has actually been on a "strangulation budget" for decades, and NASA’s contractors have almost always been forced to observe severe cost penalties in event of cost or schedule overruns. If overruns DO occur, the contractor earns a black mark on their record that makes it harder for them to stay on a qualified bidder’s list for subsequent NASA development work. My 45-yr career hasn’t been a bed of nothing but roses –there have been a lot of thorns. It’s been tough ….but no regrets!

PS: Regarding EFLEX & the Volt, GM bought Hughes Aircraft, the worlds largest private maker of space hardware, around 20yrs ago & many Hughes engineers & executives moved to the Detroit area from southern California. Those guys designed the first ABS systems, heads-up displays, etc in the automotive industry. Equally important, perhaps, the space program’s "strangulation budget", risk-acceptance and breakthrough culture was infused into GM & I believe it’s alive & prospering within the hundreds of people on the EFLEX/Volt team at every level. I like to think even Bob Lutz & Rick Wagoner have been "infected"!

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Statik Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:50 am

At 48K, our ’stripped down’ Volt has to go against Tesla’s Whitestar sedan which is aimed at competing with luxury manufacturers like Mercedes and BMW.

The White Star is expected to market late 2009, in both a ‘all too familiar’ 50 mile electric/gas REV version with a range of 400 miles and a all electric 150-200 mile version (apparently there will be a two battery option, regular and extra pricey) Cost goes from base at 50k, to all out tricked at 70K.

I wouldn’t mention it other than the fact they are ACTUALLY PRODUCING electric cars now, so they are the only ones you can take seriously.

Then there is the BlueStar, slated for 5 years out at 30K (provided the White Star sells well).

/just saying

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noel park Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:55 am

This is getting really old.

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Tim Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:06 am

As gas prices increase (and they will) and OEM electric (non-NEV) cars are priced out of the market (and they are), there will be a dynamic market for local converters of highway capable commuter electric cars. http://www.evhelp.com/ http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/other.shtml

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Vincent Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:07 am

Yawn…

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Talks Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:09 am

I think the cost of Volt is indeed 30000$. But Government would like to support the Plugin vehicles by giving tax rebates for political reasons. But they would have thought if the customer is ready to buy the VOLT for 30000$ why should we give tax rebate. But there is a way… Jack up the price to 40000$ and give tax rebate to make it 30000$. I think GM and Government are both involved in deciding the price.

If the VOLT is 40000$ with no rebates, it will be a commercial failure though not a technical failure.

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Will Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:10 am

44 Statik,

I really wouldn’t take Tesla too seriously at this point. They just started production a few days ago, we are still to see how well their cars hold up (but wait, anyone who can owns a 100,000 dollar car is going to treat it like gold, so maybe it’ll be a little difficult to get real world reliability and performance stats on them).

I’ve been following Tesla since I first heard about them in early 07, and I’ve been optimistic but skeptical ever since. The first video I ever saw of the roadster it broke down and Mr Eberheardt and the reporter had to PUSH it down the road….it was actually on tape. NOT a good press release.

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Vincent Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:11 am

They already said {GM} it would be produced at a loss.
Did any of you stay awake in school. Does this magazine really know for sure how much the battery pack will cost. They don’t even know the chemistry in the battery. Sheeesh everyone thinks if it’s on the web or in print it must be true. Wake up!

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Vincent Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:13 am

Oh and it’s being built on a Cobalt platform. They already know at $40K it’s a flop. They will not spend 400M to build an over priced vehicle.

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Will Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:16 am

48 Talks

Do you live in a country where the government fixes prices on consumer goods often??? That doesn’t happen in America my friend. The last time it did, Nixon was in office and it lasted less than a year.

Even 35-40 k doesn’t put this car out of reach for most Americans. If you think about it, next time you drive down the road, count all the BMW’s and Mercedes, and then add in all the SUVs. All of those people can afford a 35-40k volt. The trick is to convince them they want one. But I think that by 2010 the oil companies and wall street speculators will have done that job already.

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Vincent Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:20 am

Uh Yeah…look at oil genius

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Jake Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:23 am

#35 Ray – The Volt motor needs to be significantly larger/more powerful than a normal sedan hybrid motor because it needs to power the car on its own up to highway speeds, and with decent acceleration. In most hybrids the motor is only assisting the gasoline engine, and if the motor can move the car alone it is only at low speeds. Unless I am mistaken, GM does not currently have a motor is can just pull from another vehicle to drop in the Volt…though the motor in the fuel cell Equinox (which is not a mass-production vehicle anyways) could be close.

As for the battery pack, that is most certainly not an off-the-shelf affair. The concept is sound but it is the first pack of its kind. Proprietary software/hardware must be developed.

#39 Adam – Sure we can take what GM management says with a grain of salt, but the indication I’m getting is that they have a lot of renewed enthusiasm and brain power among the management, and much involvement by management in the Volt project.

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Jim I Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:27 am

nasaman #43:

OK, with what you had to say and your firsthand knowledge, you convinced me to change my position!
And I do agree with your statement about the Hughes Aircraft acquisition by GM. I wonder how many other cool toys they came up with that are sitting on a shelf somewhere…
If they could just install a decent phaser so I could take care of the guy in the left lane with his left turn signal on, that decides to turn right at the last second!!! Now that is an option I would pay for………

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Mike756 Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:58 am

I won’t believe anything unless I see it here. So for now I’ll just repeat my plea:

The batteries have the capacity
The engineers have the sagacity
To end our useless toil for oil
Deliver the Volt (<35,000)
Don’t let the momentum spoil

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Mark Bartosik Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

I spent some time talking with Ed Piper (Chevy President) at Volt Nation. Because I had a check in my hand that I told him I would write it out on the spot for $10K deposit we ended up talking about pricing a lot.

I told him that if I gave him the check I would write two restrictions on the back: MSRP <= $40K, and delivery on or before 1 March 2011.

He was very interested to talk price, rebates, marketing, lobbying, grass roots support. He was hoping that $40K would be after Gov rebates, but I told him that I had assumed by then there there would be $4K in tax deductions and was assuming before tax credits (i.e. MSRP). But of course I couldn’t depend on a tax credit if he accepted the deposit.

He certainly understands that it will only be enthusiasts that will shell out $40K. Now I was talking $40K in todays dollars, I should have made that clear to him, what’s your guess about inflation 1 to 20% by then.

He certainly was thinking in the $40K area, and was clearly hoping more like $45K however price is something that they have UNDER CONSIDERATION and thus everything is subject to change.

He wants to keep the Volt a premium vehicle for a couple of years at least. At $40K plus for a small car, that would be premium.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

The best course of action is this:
Start saving money for the Volt.
When it is finally for sale, then decide if you want to buy it.

As far as tax credits go, here is my opinion. Tax credits should be applied toward an American car purchase and not a foreign one. We should encourage purchases of American cars.

BTW, I haven’t owned an American car in since the 1986 Pontiac Sunbird I bought when I got out of college.

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kent beuchert Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

It’s like you people never learn. The popular media and technology news is an oxymoron. If you are going to get upset every time someone, somewhere publishes an unsubstantiated claim about the Volt, your blood pressure will be better off visiting other web sites and other technologies. There are no significant cost differences between the automakers when we’re talking vehicle development. Anything that can be said about GM can be said with pretty much equal validity about any of the other 20 automakers. There are no magical ways to develop a car more cheaply than anyone else. It’s labor costs that differentiate the automakers cost structures.
First off, there is no "Volt cost" – you can make all kinds of assumptions and come up with all kinds of pricing structures. It all depends on many things – how many copies of the vehicle, how long a period are you pricing the car for, etc.? Price the car for the first year and amortize all the development costs and any car can be claimed to cost a fortune. There are further complications with the Volt, which is using an expensive component (the battery) whose future costs are somewhat uncertain, but certain to go down.
That alone will make accurate estimates of the costs of a Volt hard to come by.
Let’s all do the reasonable thing and wait for Lyle to find out
what’s what.
Lyle : a suggestion : don’t mention these media claims without getting some input from the Volt team. I’m getting fed up with all the extraneous nonsense such articles provoke.

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banjoez Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

An earlier poster mentioned that even at 40k it’s not out of the reach of most Americans. Look at all the BMW’s and Mercedes on the road. The flaw in that logic is the folks who can afford those aren’t the ones that really need a VOLT from an economic perspective. Yes, it does help ease our dependence on oil no matter who buys it but those that can afford a $40k+ car aren’t as financially affected as the average working guy who spends a larger and larger percentage of his/her income on fuel just getting back and forth to work with no other option. The vast majority of working class folks will still be forced to drive much cheaper ICE vehicles and thus the paradigm will not shift until prices come WAY down for EV’s.

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Jim I Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Kent #60:

What you say is true, but on the other hand, it keeps the traffic count high on the site, and that help with the income Lyle receives from the advertisers………………..

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Ed Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

I would love to get a poll of the people on this site that have spent 40k or upward on an auto. Most of your 40K cars are leased not purchased. Between payments and insurance we are talking close to $900- $1000 a month. GM is not going to sell the car for a loss and have GMAC finiance it at a loss also. It will be 2-3 years after the initial release before most consumers will even think about purchasing the Volt. Let’s get real, you have to pay for cutting edge technology.

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Jeffrey Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Before we get too upset over another inaccurate big media story, could they just be misquoting this information from the NY auto Show?
http://www.leftlanenews.com/bob-lutz-saturn-vue-plug-in-chevrolet-volt-to-be-more-expensive-than-originally-thought.html In this blog, Mr. Lutz is quoted as saying the Saturn Vue plug-in would be $48,000: "the two-mode hybrid system will add about $8,000 to $9,000 to the price of the Vue, with the plug-in technology adding another $8,000 to $9,000 on top of the cost of the hybrid system." When all costs are tallied, Lutz says the Saturn Vue will list "for about $48,000" Now take off the $8,000 for the two-mode hybrid system, and with all else the same, we have the same $40,000 for the Volt we keep hearing everywhere (yes, very oversimplified, I know). What’s even more interesting about this blog is it has yet another mention of the 40 mile electric range of the Vue, so take it with a grain of salt as well…

I’m with Dave (18) and Tim (30) – I’ll just wait and see, and let capitalism take its normal course. In three years, who knows how many options I’ll have to choose from?

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Statik Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

#50 Will

I remember the early Tesla vids, lol. Course I remember seeing the Volt being pushed around it’s fair share too, hehe.

Here is production car #1 being put thru it’s paces by Jay Leno…alot of good footage.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=229378

Honestly, if the Volt is coming in at 50k, I would have to think real long and hard to not say, heck another 48k to have that, lol. 0-60 sub 4 secs…200 mile range…and wicked awesome.

It’s funny how the value is hard to get out of electric at sub 40k…but there is nothing, absolutely nothing that comes close to matching this thing at 98k.

I guess thats the real benefit of electric cars…the cost is all in the platform, once you get past that, the ’super-car’ power is hella-easy to get out of electric. If a major automaker was bankrolling that car, it could probably be put out at 60k…maybe thats why they don’t.

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Hong Cho Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

I guess I think of it like any sales deal (I recently had to go through that for my Prius).

So, they say 40K. Then I’ll have to stick with 30K and see where we land.

Hong.

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Statik Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

#60

I think Lyle has been fairly unbiased putting up quotes from 3rd party sites about the Volt. For the most part, (other than a chevron snafu) they have almost always turned out to be 100 percent accurate…something which cannot be said about GM’s ‘official quotes’.

I’d wager that of all the posts for 2007, that were ‘goal’ oriented out of GM’s mouth ie) production, price, volume, style — maybe 10 percent were true.

As for most American’s can afford 40-48k…this is impossible. According to the US census, the median income per household member (including all working and non-working members above the age of 14) in the year 2006 was $26,036.

70.95% of American wage earners earn less than 50k (Census Bereau.

Compound these numbers with the housing recession (today biggest drop in 20 years reported) and these numbers are just getting worse.

I would put maybe 5-10 percent of the population can afford a Volt north of 40k. On top of that, a good portion of people that have money…have it because they are cheap.

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Tom Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

If the Volt turns out to be a disaster because of price, GM did it to themselves. The new design studio, the new body style, the unnecessary new low-power parts like windshield wipers, etc.

When the Prius was released in the US, it was a butt-ugly cheap-o model. And Toyota still had the foresight to sell it at a loss. People bought it because of the important part, the drivetrain. And now look where they are.

All GM had to do was release a Cobalt with a battery and a motor and call it good, but every other week we hear about some new self-inflicted disaster like this.

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Statik Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 1:30 pm

#68 Tom

I agree with you 100 percent, slap a battery in a Cobalt…just get it out there. The Prius was sin itself when it first came out…not exactly a looker now, lol…but it was out there.

Honestly, we just want a fricken 4 seater with a battery here. A electric Cobalt at 25k…they could sell 100k easy. If you give people a car they can understand it’s value…they will buy it, big time.

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noel park Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

#68 Tom, #69 Statik:

Right.

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GXT Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

#27 Nasaman:

I haven’t worked at GM or NASA, but watching the two companies operate clearly shows that they have some very significant differences.

People do things that haven’t been done all the time. But your argument seems to be that since the Volt hasn’t been done it will be done. That doesn’t follow. And it certainly doesn’t follow that it will be GM to do it.
Based only on the items that GM have actually ADMITTED to you can see that they had a surprising lack of knowledge. Refer to comments on weight/aerodynamics, component power draw, etc. These would have been obvious to the EV1 engineers… yet for some reason they were incredible surprises worthy of public disclosure.

I have no doubt the GM Engineers want to make this work and are trying to make it work. What a great opportunity! But that doesn’t change the fact that this certainly appears to be a GM exec/PR driven project and GM’s management has tended towards incompetence. If examples such as GM’s financial situation, their downplaying of hybrids, and their hybrid bus fiasco (they justified GM staying out of the hybrid car market and were supposedly incredible right until the day that they turned out to be so bad) don’t convince you, witness the putting of the cart before the horse that has become the Volt.

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GXT Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

#27 Nasaman,

Regarding my range/vacuum comment, consider this.

If the range of the volt were halved, it would still cover (IIRC) 50% of the daily commute of most drivers, shave perhaps $5,000+ off the price, allow GM to build twice as many, provide for more interior volume, and provide better fuel economy by not having to haul around the extra battery all the time.

Tell me, which would be more successful?

Of course they could have adjusted the range as they actually started learning about the Volt IF they hadn’t picked the range based on the PR benefits (80% of consumers are covered!!!… way farther than stupid Toyota!!!!) and if the PR department wasn’t already airing commercials well before GM knew what they were getting into.

Perhaps I don’t fully comprehend the problems with "being GM", but it looks like incompetence to me.

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Tim Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

I believe that Mr. Lutz even said something to the effect that $Millions in R&D could bring $Billions in new sales due to good PR and they didn’t want to make the “let others make the Prius” mistake again. GM will have to realize that the E-Flex R&D needs to be amortized by ALL of the future models which use the technology and not JUST the Volt. GM also needs to monetize the good will, PR and "free" marketing the Volt project has brought to them.

Yet, GM does seem to be making that mistake again by backsliding into their old ways of “stepping over $ Dollars to count Pennies” and pricing the Volt out of the mass market. Overpricing the Volt will KILL the PR benefits to other product lines and may even become counterproductive to the image they are trying so hard to rebuild.

GM must be comfortable with the fact that it will take several years for them to recoup their initial E-Flex investment and that return will come from the sales of other GM cars or future E-Flex models because of positive Volt PR.

GM… Don’t screw the pooch by overpricing the Volt!

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Charlie H Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

#68 Tom,
#69 Statik,
#70 noelpark,

Yep. GM should walk before it runs.

Another idea, extend the "mild hybrid" concept currently available to additional vehicles in the product line & get the price of that down to $500. Or put it on the base vehicle for free (especially useful marketing at Saturn, I think).

It’s unique, it can be effective (Your Mileage May Vary) and it should be low-cost. If a Malibu "mild hybrid" could get a significant chunk of the Camry hybrid fuel savings for a small fraction of the cost, it would be a powerful marketplace argument for buying a Malibu. GM should engineer what’s necessary to wring the maximum benefit out of it at the lowest possible cost.

At $40K, it seems to me that the Volt is unlikely to sell in any significant volume. If a mild hybrid Malibu or Aura offered significantly better fuel economy than a plain-Jane Camry at a price competitive with that plain-Jane Camry, it might sell really, really well. GM could really, really use the revenue.

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Patrick Orr Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Do not worry GM will screw up the Volt and then have the audacity to overcharge for it. They have been operating that way since the early 70’s The problems with guys like Lutz, is that they are a probably adequate engineers, but they have no idea on how business and economics work. Look what the the Japanese and Germans have done to the"Big 3".They need to engineer, manufacture and price the Volt so that they capture the minds and hearts of the American car buyer. Just like Toyota, Honda, Audi have done over the last 40 years.

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GDub Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

40K is too much. I can’t do it, unless I don’t feed my two kids- I agree with a previous post, they should absorb the cost and price it lower- to sell more. They shouldn’t make different models. This alone will lower cost of production. GM should make one model with all the options, bells and whistles and sell 500 thousand of them.

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Grizzly Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Wherever they got that quote from in print, isn’t it pretty clear from Volt Nation that GM isn’t currently divulging a price?

And…of all sources of news it was MSNBC…..that should tell us something!

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Apartment Dweller McFly Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

Sounds like it’s time for the "plug free" Volt with the 8kwh battery instead…

50 mpg ain’t too shabby and would give the Prius a run for its’ money :>)

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Disappointed_In_GM Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

First its under 30 k to beat with the competition.. then 35 k – now indications are its going north to 40k.. does anyone else feel like we are being set up for a overpriced Malibu that won’t deliver on its promises????

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Tim Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Evbones.com services Chevy S-10EVs that were sold to fleet buyers back in ’98-’99. Here’s some interesting information regarding the S-10EVs 29 kWh NiMH replacement battery packs which are still available: http://www.evbones.com/battery.html

I find that very interesting that GM has to start ALL over again so they have to price the Volt beyond the means of most buyers.
I smell fish.

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Statik Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

Well seems pretty unianomous.

It appears that the Volt Nation is telling GM 40K and higher is unacceptable…and this is the most accomodating of GM’s consumer groups.

They say they read the forums…hopefully this gets through to them.

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Jeff J Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

#46 noel park , agree !!!!Wake me up when I can read some real news.

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noel park Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 4:15 pm

#74 Charlie H:

Right, and put it on the Cobalt and the Aveo while thy’re at it. It wouldn’t be that hard to take out some weight, slick up the aero a little, and gain some useful mileage bragging rights.

I would buy a 40 mpg, or even 35 ,combined Aveo or Cobalt tomorrow. 25-27 just doesn’t get it.

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noel park Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

#82 Jeff J:

Yeah, I swore to God that I would never do it, but I am about to go Prius shopping.

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Jeff M Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

My guess is that there was either a typo or Lutz had a senior moment… the 4’s in the quote may really have meant to be 3’s…. ie. no profit selling it at 30,000, and his realistic price at 38,000. This would fit right in with GM’s numbers they gave when they 1st backed away from the "comfortably under $30,000" price.

Re to OhmExcited "Competition will solve this problem for us in the long run."….

What’s your definition of "long" run? If you mean 3-4 years then I agree (though wouldn’t really call that "long"). GM is going to have a lot of competition by 2012. If indeed $48,000 is the MSRP for the Volt, then GM may actually be at a price disadvantage. Lots of EV fans may give up on a range extended EV like the Volt and buy a plug-in Prius. As much as I hate a mechnically much more complex parallel hybrid like the Prius, my current vehicle will be over 12 years old by 2012, and I’m not sure I even want to wait that long to replace it as it only gets 22mpg (and requires premium grade).

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bruce g Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

While we know the Volt can be built for $25K (some day) it is GM’s desire to demonstrate technical leadership, and I think that is necessary if they are to have a future.
They are designing an icon.
Still,I am pleased the greenhouse roof has been deleted.
imho

inmho

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Dan Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Everyone on this site is passionate about this car. GM is doing something that no other automaker is doing by developing the Volt. Even if it is not high-volume, low-price right away, it will be some day. GM deserves credit for moving this program as fast as it is and pouring resources into it.

It is time we look to the government to do its bit. The Toyota Prius program was entirely paid for by the Japanese government. The passionate people on this site need to get on their representatives to provide a substantial rebate when this comes out. Give GM a break.

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Jeff M Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 5:16 pm

Tim, thanks to the pointer to that evbones site! Only $8,000 for a 29kwh Cobasys NiMH! That’s only $276/kwh. Too bad GM couldn’t use a 16kwh pack of those ($4,400) in the 1st generation Volt’s until the LiIon’s are really ready (cost wise) for prime time.

I also wish I lived in Mesa Arizona area! Looks like they will soon have another refurb’ed Chevy S10-EV ready for sale with the NiMH pack mentioned above for only $23,000! I had considered, as many others have done, buying a used high milage S10 and put the $10,000 into it to convert it to an EV with lead acid batteries, but I’d gladly pay the extra (and a lot of savings of my time) for one already done, and done with the NiMH’s! If you are in the Mesa AZ area, and you test drive it, please report back! More info at the end of the page of http://www.evbones.com/

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Jeff M Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

Dan, I agree… if we could have only taken the money the Bush admin pumped into the hydrogen hoax and instead directed it to battery research instead…. or even taking just a portion of the tax breaks currently being given to the oil companies… or what we spend in a single day in Iraq….

Hope is in the air though… the two dems and McCain all "sound" serious about moving us toward clean and realistic energy independence…. let’s just hope the winner in November we find out later took significant donations from the oil & gas lobby, auto industry lobby, ethanol lobby, coal lobby, etc….

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Jake Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

#79 Disappointed_In_GM – Nope, don’t get that feeling at all actually. Maybe the overpriced part, but I think GM is trying really hard to do this right.

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Haid D' Salaami Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 5:48 pm

What do I know about cars? Drive them, and put gas, and check the oil and few stuff, but the main thing is that I know to drive, and I know that because I have a NY License. My point here is that I am spending about $50.00 every two week and that is only if I stay within my range, work, home and a few stops. I am getting the Volt at 40k for this reason. I will only stop at the gas station for coffee and once in a blue moon for those long trip. $40k and beeing anable not to stop at a gas station for gas….Priceless. I am not rich but I am even will to to 45K, that is how much I want a Volt….All I care is that GM makes the Volt GOOD, reliable and 40 miles gas free for about ten years. That is all I want and if 40k is the price, I want one.

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Kevin R Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

I can’t afford $40,000 or above on a teacher’s salary…it won’t happen.

GM needs to take into consideration how the Japanese overtook the various industries here in the United States. In the late 1970’s and throughout 1980’s Sony and others dumped televisions and receivers here in the millions and lost money on every one, all with the blessings of the corporate leaders. Sony became synonymous with high quality products and the prices began to rise throughout the 1990’s. Kobota stomped all over our domestic power shovel market, wiping out Bay City Shovel and others with equipment priced at a loss to guarantee sales and market share. Once the competition was wiped out prices rose. Now they have that market too.

GM needs to do the same. Yes, they can loose money on every vehicle, they need to in order to corner the market and build brand loyalty and recognition. Chevy has always denoted cars for the everyday person. At $48k it isn’t a car for the everyday person. It is a luxury item that few in today’s economic climate can afford. They must be aggressive in their pricing structure…it must be priced under $40K and the low to mid $30’s would be ideal.

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Ter Meenal Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

Low to mid 30’s is NOT ideal. South of 30 is ‘ideal’. Where GM seems to be going wrong here is that they are missing the lessons learned from cars like the VW Beetle. Get a basic car out, get the public to accept it. They don’t need to be building something that ‘has it all’. They also don’t need to be trying to solve ‘problems’ that don’t really make much difference to the car itself (low power windshield wiper motors come to mind).

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Computer-codger Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

There is a poll on
http://www.hybridcarblog.com/
that asks, “What’s the most you would pay for the Volt?”
The results when I looked at it was:
$20k              916     45.7%
$30k              757     37.7%
$40k             224     11.2%
$50k                41       2.0%
$60k                68       3.4%
Total votes 2006

GM had better look at such surveys as they go through their pricing exercise. The world needs this car, so look at all options on how to price it so it is affordable.

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David L Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

Like others have said, I’m sure that this is just political posturing and/or poor reporting.

However, GM is going to need to keep their costs down to remain competitive … The Th!nk Ox concept car is slated for sale in 2011, with an estimated price of €20K (about US $32K). It is a 5-seater, 5-door with a 60 kW front wheel drive giving a top speed of 135 km/h (85 mph). The car is 100% electric (no range extender), but it is targeted at 200km for combined highway and city summer driving (US06 driving cycle) – with a planned sports version with a higher top speed and a range extended to up to 450km.

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Tagamet Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

I think that the only relevent fact in evidence is:

WE WON’T KNOW ENOUGH OF THE FACTS FOR ANOTHER TWO YEARS.

Maybe we should relax just a bit.

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Arch Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

I think we all need to calm down. I am not least bit happy with the price point. Understand what is going on here. If
the government wants a car like this on the road then they
will help GM out. If states want this car on the road they will
help out. Its time to see who puts their money where their
mouth is. GM has had his car for many years. The Li batteries must have mad it a new ballgame. There is a lot going on here that we do not know about. They are playing hard ball and at times it might not look all that good. Lets wait till the end game to see what the final call looks like. I
could even see the feds stepping in and subsidizing the battery development since it will help all car makers. There will be a lot of sound fury before this is all
over. I mean we are dealing with some of the biggest money
intrests in this country—-Cars and Oil. Its not the time to
loose our heads yet. Just sit back and watch the game. It
will be fun because we have no money at stake YET. JMHO

Take Care
Arch

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Cheetah Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

You really have to do the Gas Math. Who knows what gas will cost then. If you drive a similar sized car now and spend $100 a week in gas, your new fuel cost could drop to $50(Just as an example). You add back some portion of the savings into your car payment – you back into what you should reasonably pay as a premium over a similar size car.

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wow Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:24 pm

quote or no quote, I find it very hard to believe that $48k number came from out of nowhere. A new tech with expensive batteries is obvioulsy going to cost a good deal more during initial roll-0ut, but this is starting to get out of hand. They’re spending too much time designing ultra-efficient windshield wipers and side view mirrors that get you 0.03 more miles per charge but cost $$$ to develop. Just stick with the basics already on hand and focus improvements on the batteries/drivetrain and aero, GM. I have no problem with GM selling this at actual cost, but they shouldn’t be putting other expensive bells and whistles on this car for minimal gain. I just hope they aren’t using this to say "hey look what we’re doing" without intention of following through..,

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omegaman66 Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

Did anyone complain about the 100K price of the Tesla car. NO!

GM better take note of what is being said here. Tesla didn’t promise a sub 30K car and then deliever one at nearly twice that price. It is not all about the price it is about they inaccuracies put forth as fact.

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Keith Rogers Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 9:33 pm

If you can only afford $30K… buy a USED Volt in 2015!

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GDub Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

GM had the EV1 in the late 90’s. Instead of reinventing the wheel, they should concider slap a new body style on the old EV1 and remarket it as the EV’09 for next year. As I remember, this car zipped along- everyone loved it- and it went up to 70 miles on a charge. I sure someone in GM can find their old notes and rebuilt it. Then they will have 2 EV models to sell. All they need is a little motivation. Unfortunately, in reality, doing something like this might prove they were wrong to Kill the EV1 in the first place.

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GDub Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

….another thought:
If the public can make EVs in their garage, why can’t GM just strip down a Cobalt and insert electric motors and batteries and sell it. I don’t get it. The GM corporate bureaucracy must be very intense. They shouldn’t have to reengineer from the ground up- they need to just get it out there, now. Not 3 years from now.

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Jim Z Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

Lame and ridiculous….next blog topic ……..PLEASE!!!

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Jimee#10 Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

If Chevy can’t build it for $30,ooo or less, Toyota and others will. This is not rocket science. It just an electric motor with batteries. All the hype about how technical it is, is just to make you think it should cost that much. Toyota just has to add more batteries in the space they already have available in the trunk and a few changes is how the electric motor is powered and you have a Volt. A few companys are already doing the conversion for around $10,ooo, and Toyota could do it alot cheaper. Easily Toyota could produce it for $30,000, and will.
I have heard in the past, the only market that is profitable for American car company’s is the large truck. If that is the case, why do they make so many styles of cars?
They are way late in this game, and I am not so sure they arn’t going to blow it. Just like prescription drugs can be purchase in other countries cheaper then here, so can cars.
And wages are not going up for most Americans, so how can the cars we purchase? Look at the housing market. Almost all our home prices are falling, and all our needed commodites are rising. Not a good picture for selling high priced cars.

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David L Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

#57 -Mike756 wrote:

I won’t believe anything unless I see it here. So for now I’ll just repeat my plea: The batteries have the capacity
The engineers have the sagacity
To end our useless toil for oil
Deliver the Volt (<35,000)
Don’t let the momentum spoil

That’s a great little poem … nicely done!

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LB Music Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

At $48K, what would you buy, the little Volt or a decked out Caddy or a Vette? Either could be had at that price. They would be dumb to sell at that price because it would kill the car and the possibility of putting this tech into other vehicle’s and then Toyota will drop off flowers at GM’s headstone in the graveyard. In order for GM to survive, they will have to sell the car a a resonable and competitive price. At the Volt-Nation, Mr. Lutz compared it to Ford’s Model T. Remember pricing the car at the right price was one of the reasons of the Model T’s success. It was priced so the average public could buy one so they could sell a million cars and eventually make the profit in high volume. At the Volt-nation event, it seemed to me that Mr. Lutz understood this concept by his comments. They may take a loss on the Volt, but installing the Volt’s technology across all of GM’s divisions, models, and worldwide distribution, taking a loss on the Volt may be an investment into the future that will not only keep GM from dying off, but just may make it the most profitable business on the planet. Watch out Bill Gates! Don’t believe everthing you read or hear in the media (TV, newspapers, internet). It would be best to see what GM itself says about the price of the car.

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Mike Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 4:11 am

I wasn’t only excited about this car, pushing back my decision to buy a new car by at least two years to 2010, but my excitement has been causing me to rave about the Volt to anyone who would listen.

Now, I can’t contain my disappointment. The new price doesn’t simply push the car out of my price range, I think it also makes it a luxury product for will simply never reach a critical mass. To be completely truthful, I’m more disappointed at myself for actually falling for all of GM’s corporate propaganda regarding the Volt and its pricing. As the saying goes "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I guess for now I will simply be contented by the fact that GM will never fool me for a third time.

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Rockyroad Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 6:05 am

$40,000 Volt minus a $20,000( Gas Honda or Toyota)= $20,000.

$20,000/ $5 per gallon gas = 4000 Gallons Gas X 35 MPG = 140,000 miles. At 14,000 miles driving per year it will take 10 years to break even.

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 7:40 am

Perhaps the comments in BusinessWeek are GM’s coordinated push to get government tax credits. Tax credits clearly will be good for GM and good for us as buyers. That they are in the overall public interest is not so obvious. With regard to the price, we can be sure that the price we pay will be greater than the cost of the parts and labor that go into our individual vehicle. The question is how much margin there will be to cover GM development costs, obligations to retired GM people, and corporate overhead. The latter are real costs and have to be covered by sales of something. A government subsidy would help a lot. The question is why such a subsidy is in the interest of all the people who pay taxes but who do not get a Volt.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:03 am

There is a presidential election looming. Think GM wants to ‘inspire’ any support from the candidates for anti Opec, green machine from an American manufacturer? Does anyone want to win Michigan in the general election? Does anyone want to boost the American economy and jobs? Does anyone want to send their bona fides to the eco-dogues? Is GM looking for a huge Federal grant to offset development costs?

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Eco Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:13 am

Dan, GM does not deserve a break. I’m not convinced they deserve to continue operating.

How about next time Bob appears in public, someone ask him a real question.

"Bob, the public is concerned that the Volt is costing too much money to develop. Please reassure the public that this is not the case. You could do this by telling us, in dollars, how much money GM has spent lobbying the American people, the federal and state governments to not improve CAFE standards and greenhouse gas emissions standards, since, say, 1982. Please tell us Bob, plus or minus a few million, how much that is. If you can’t put your finger on that number, just compare the R and D cost of the Volt, to those costs, in relative terms. "

The day THAT question is posted on THIS blog with an ANSWER, is the day I give GM a break.

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nasaman Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:21 am

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: A new forum thread is now available to everyone to RANK the top 10, 15, 20 or so questions not yet answered (or not fully answered) by GM at VoltNation or elsewhere. Go to…..

http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175

…..to rank these questions I’m calling the "Lutz List" from most important to least important. The deadline is Wed, April 2 ….1 week from today.

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nasaman Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:34 am

PS: If you have trouble with the above URL, copy/paste it into your browser’s URL address window

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Nhern202 Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:40 am

The Volt should be subsidized by the Electric Utility companies, which stand to make a windfall from over night charging.

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Jim Howell Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:41 am

$48,000 seems to be a fair price for GM to charge. Keep in mind they need to pass on the expense of the eV1 to us. It cost them a lot of money to develop a car, let the public use it, then demolish them for no reason. (not a very green practice!)

I honestly hope GM can pull it off for less than $30G’s. I was raised in a GM household, my father was a lifetime GM employee, but I am quickly loosing my loyalty to GM because of their idiotic business practices. Out of respect to my father, I purchased my last car (06 maxx) from GM. I can’t say I will do the same next time. Honda or Toyota seem to have the balls to risk developing (at a reasonably fast pace) economical and efficient cars that this country needs. I respect that. A sub $30g Volt is likely the only thing that would convince me to buy another GM product.

The volt could be as simple as this:

(Next Gen Malibu) – (large combustion engine) – (shared development costs with a mass production car) + (small generator) + (a bank or two of batteries) + (an induction drive motor) = a reasonably priced car, very similar to a gasoline powered production car. This is 2008, GM is (was??) the largest auto manufacturer, NOT THAT HARD PEOPLE! Get it on the road, get it priced right, and it will save your company. Continue your business model as you have for decades and your office space will be for rent in no time.

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Tim Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:44 am

The above link does not work.

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nasaman Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:51 am

If you have trouble with the link in my post #112, copy/paste it (as repeated below) into your browser’s URL address window:

http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175

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noel park Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 10:27 am

#108 Mike:

Alas, I have to agree with you.

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GXT Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 11:24 am

#108 Mike and #119 Noel Park,

The good news is that both Honda and Toyota offer affordable hybrids (~$22K) that get very good fuel economy (~40-45MPG city) right now. Within th next year they will offer even more affordable hybrids that hopefully have even better fuel economy.

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noel park Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 11:34 am

120 GXT:

Well I never thought that I would be agreeing with you, but they drive you to it in the end, don’t they.

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PeteVE Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 11:34 am

i’ve been a GM diehard as my elders were all gm men. my heart is hurting as i read this thread and now i don’t know what to do. i’ve spent $46K b4 but have learned that i will never get my monies worth. now i’m older and smarter and don’t ever want to spend that much. i can afford it, i just don’t want it. i think the pricing should be that of an equinox where LS is $28K with LTZ or Sport at $35K. this will be the world changer. not a ~$45K niche caddy with a chevy emblem.

capitalism will not give you rewards if you keep this up. for the first time ever, i feel like i might look at other companies. sad day for me…truly. i do hope this is what some have stated as an idiot writer for the media.

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kent beuchert Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 11:58 am

I may as well put forth my thoughts about product costs and pricing. Every product incurs a certain development cost. That cost will be amortized over the units of product sold. In this case, we’re not talking just Chevy Volt : we’re talking E-Flex platform. So any given E-Flex product will have to pay platform development costs plus those development costs unique for that variant (sheet metal design, etc ). Then there are the costs of the component parts of the vehicle and the cost to assemble them, etc. Those costs will mostly be rather easy to estimate, although the E-Flex has a very expensive component (the battery pack) whose future pricing remains uncertain. To estimate any possible GM losses, you have to specify at least two uncertain things : how many E-Flex vehicles will be sold over its productive lifespan, and what will the battery packs’ average cost be over all those vehicles built, and what price will the vehicles fetch in the marketplace. The cost per vehicle will not be knowable for certain until the E-Flex platform is no longer in production, and we can divide the sum of the development and build costs by the number of vehicles. If the E-Flex development cost GM a billion dollars, for example, and only 10,000 vehicles are sold, then the development costs per vehicle turns out to be $100,000. If a million are sold, then that figure is $1,000 dollars per vehicle. The point of all this is that any estimate of losses per unit (which requires knowing cost per vehicle and price sold) must be based on certain assumptions. If you don’t know what those assumptions are, you cannot possibly have an opinion of whether the estimate is reasonable or not. Even if Lutz claimed a $40,000 per Volt cost, I haven’t a clue as to what assumptions those figures are based on. You should provide a cost estimate that excludes development costs (and thus doesn’t require any estimates of units sold/ platform lifespan) so that we can understand what costs you are talking about. If the Volt is as successful as we all hope, those development costs won’t be much of a factor.

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Al Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

Think about this: during one year approx 3 yrs out from market availability, price has floated from 30 to 40 and now to 48K by someone that absolutely MUST be in the know. This is a commuter car, not an SUV and certainly NOT a sports car. Hard to even describe this as a family car. So the intended market MUST be tree-huggers and Anti-middle- East-ophiles. Dr. Lyle may be able to pay 48K for this GM Specialty Auto, but middle class America can NOT. I really hope GM goads Toyota and Honda into a Serial Electric vehicle or something reasonably close. If their car is in the 25 – 35K range they WILL get my business. A 10 – 15k 40ish mpg commuter car paying $4-5/gal make more economic sense in the near term. May GM rot ….

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Charlie H Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

#115, Nhern202, If the electric companies agreed that subsidizing this would benefit them, they still would ask, why subsidize the Volt? Why not subsidize something else? Or all of them? Toyota will have a product. There will be others. The Volt still must be reasonably priced with respect to the competition.

#124, Al, GM will not goad Toyota into a Serial HEV anytime soon. Toyota can get plenty of incremental improvement out of the Volt design and they have publicly stated their approach is superior. They will probably build a plain vanilla EV at some point. The Li-Ion technology that GM plans to use can be used in a Prius to get considerable EV-mode range.

Honda is reported to be introducing something new in the next couple years, to compete with the Prius as a purpose built HEV or PHEV, rather than a hybridized Civic or Accord.

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Jim I Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

People!

Until you actually see a sticker price attached to a Volt, which is not for another another 31 months at the very earliest, how can you all be giving up already?

If you are looking for a reason to go buy a Prius now, I don’t think this is it…. I expect to hear at least 100 different "the price of the Volt could be" announcements between today and Nov, 2010. And they are all pretty much meaningless.

As I have said many times before, I will not make my decision to purchase until I see the car, sit in it, take it for a test drive, see the available options, understand the warranty, be informed about the service capabilities of the dealer, and know the final pricing!

And if the other manufacturers have something along the same lines as the design of the Volt (a minimum of 40 miles AER and extended range capability), I will look at them as well. It would be silly not to do that.

But I will give them everyone the time they have asked for. However, I fully expect to be driving something electrically powered by March, 2011 at the latest………

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Al Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

Shouldn’t it be a little concerning that the price Jim, has always incrementally increased and we have those 31 months to go? I was totally incensed with the first Lutz zinger, now I think I see the direction: keep pushing the price until all the Jim’s, Nasaman’s, Dan’s, etc. squeal, then back off a bit to make them happy again. I will predict >50K by years end! May GM be the next Chrysler…supply and demand in the end wins! BTW the Gov credits come from your own hide too. Higher taxes are already on their way!

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Jim I Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Al:

If you look at the last paragraph of post #10, you will see where my high price point is located, and what will be expected at that price.

Here is my honest take on all of this. GM is being open, but not totally. I can understand that. If they put everything out on the table, then the competition has very little of their own research to do. If GM tells us now, exactly what will be included in the car and exactly what it will cost, then all anyone else has to do is squeeze five more AER miles or throw in the voice activated Microsoft Sync system and charge $1K less. Then everyone else looks at GM and says, "How could you let this happen?!?!?!"

Here is something to think about: The best thing that GM could do is to let the competition think that the price of the Volt is going to be $50K or more. Then the others will believe that they do not have to work as hard to keep the price of their EV at a bare bones price. But at delivery time, we find out that during those 31 months, the engineers at GM have been doing this the right way, and squeezing every last amp out of the power pack, adding all kinds of cool accessories, and working on the methods to keep the cost of every single part at the lowest possible price. Now they deliver supercar, and at a price that blows away the competition!

Wouldn’t that make you a much happier purchaser?

But hey, if I am wrong, then we will all be driving some import EV or hybrid in 2011…………..

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Jake Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 4:26 pm

Personally, I think statements like "it’s just a motor and batteries" are naive. If you’re going to argue that the Volt should already be out and cost $25,000, you need to come up with a better reason than that.

In my opinion, no matter which way you cut it there has NEVER been a car like the Volt before. Can you name a single other electric car produced by a large, mainstream automaker, that made it to mass-production and popular consumption? The EV-1 came close, but not quite. GM has to produce this electric car with their reputation in mind. This is no little startup company making a few thousand tiny EV’s that can go 30 mph. This car is breaking new ground and a major automaker HAS to get things like this right. If it was as easy as putting a motor and battery in a Cobalt, someone would have already done it. With this in mind, why don’t we let GM decide what the price ought to be. They may not make a wise choice in this area, but that is for us to find out later. No good condemning GM prematurely. None of us have any clue how to run a car company.

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srschrier Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm

The Volt project looks like it’s becoming GM’s Tesla as by 2010 the manufacturing costs gradually increase. As an alternative, would or could GM ever consider buying Tesla and get the Tesla into mainstream mass production? And while we’re waiting for GM’s "Volt" to eventually arrive another engineering team, AFS Trinity Power in California with assistance from Ricardo in Detroit, today have on the road a 150 MPG 2007 Saturn Vue XH (extreme hybrid). It reportedly goes 40+ miles in electric mode, uses a capacitor-battery technology augmented by the Saturn’s gas engine. The outstanding (Michelin) test track results are happening even with the extra added weight of a capacitor-battery and aerodynamics of the stock 2007 Saturn SUV. From design phase to test track all achieved during 2007. AFS premiered their Saturn Vue XH at the 2008 Detroit Auto Show. For more AFS Saturn information, videos, technical data, cost analysis of capacitor-battery technology, the link below may be copied or pasted into your browser. http://www.afstrinity.com

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Haid D' Salaami Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Arch, You are right.

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al Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

AFS Trinity, Aptera, Think, Tata, and you name it all see this handwriting on the wall: GM is NOT going to deliver a 30 or even 40K Nexgen Hybrid or electric car. There is a LOT of money to be made in the non or low gas consumer commuter car. If the price gets close to the Prius with much better mileage, half-way decent appearance, and decent reliability watch out! We all hoped that car was the Volt, but nope they were just kidding.
To bad GM MUST pay their janitors and other unskilled labor ~$50/hr, Upper managers megabucks, and so on. They need some trick now that the SUV/Suburban crowd are tired getting hit at $100 for a fill up.

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Arch Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

You got that right! GM might be running the price up but there are a lot of others pulling it down. This could be a very good game!

Take Care
Arch

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Ruby Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

I think that a $10,000 premium over a similar gasser is the limit for a mass-market, average consumer.
Most people will amortize the cost, in the form of a car loan.
At $1ok, you’ll probably break even after about 36 months- which is about the length of time your car is "kind of new" (e.g., a 36 month lease). Even though the subsequent 7-9 years will give you large savings, a relatively fast payback would be necessary to overcome the sticker-shock.

At $15k premium, you’ll still corner the prius market (which is still mostly concerned with appearing fashionably green).
Any higher, and you’re into a much more rarefied demographic: Die-hard environmentally conscious neurosurgeons.
(Just kidding, Lyle).
Seriously though, a $45k Volt will mostly be found parked between the BMW and the Benz.

I can’t see much extra production cost (besides one-time costs) other than the batteries. Maybe there should be a higher-end model with the highly-touted 40 mile EV range, and maybe some neat-o electronics, followed by a 20 mile (or less) mass market car. The high-end first model will: allow GM to reap a premium from early adopters, keep the initial pool manageable in case of problems (think Firestone) and avoid raising the early adopter ire by lowering prices on the same model (remember the $600 iPhone?). Surely halving the battery isn’t too complex.

A reasonably priced 50mpg car that will sell will help the environment much more than some Tesla/Aptera niche car.

As far as oil security goes, if U.S. cars and SUVs would have
their average MPGs go up 33%, we could stop buying all Persian Gulf oil without a change in price at the pump. (see here.)

Comments?

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nasaman Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

130 srschrier & 132 al…..

Although I haven’t been very vocal about GM’s only other 2010/11 plug-in (the Saturn Vue plug-in) here at gm-volt.com, I’ve devoted considerable time to lobbying GM’s Larry Burns (VP Engrng), Jill Lajdziak (Saturn’s General Manager), Bob Lutz and others at GM’s decision-making levels regarding the plug-in Vue’s announced EV-only range of 10 miles. My efforts have been directed towards persuading them to offer an option for the Vue (employing the Volt’s battery technology) that would increase the plug-in Vue’s EV range to ~35 miles. By the time the Volt is available, GM’s intensive marketing efforts should have caused most prospective plug-in buyers (for the Vue as well as the Volt) to expect the "magic number" for a plug-in vehicle’s EV range to be 35-45 miles (not 10). And the Vue has plenty of space for a battery large enough to at least approach this range, as the AFS Trinity’s plug-in Vue has clearly demonstrated.

Sorry if it disappoints you Al, but GM will be offering a 2010/11 Saturn Vue plug-in, and it should have nearly as much EV-only range as the Volt, because the market will demand it, and because it is technically feasible!

===============================================
PLEASE REMEMBER: A new forum thread is now available to everyone to RANK the top 10, 15, 20 or so questions not yet answered (or not fully answered) by GM at VoltNation or elsewhere. Go to…..

http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175
…..to rank these questions I’m calling the "Lutz List" from most important to least important. The deadline is Wed, April 2.

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nasaman Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

PS: Copy/paste the above link to the "Lutz List" of questions into your browser’s URL address window if necessary.

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Adam Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 2:35 am

Sorry if this was already brough up – and I missed it – but I was really interested in the following:
…the visitors on this site..
1. want to buy the Volt only, no matter what..
2. want to buy a plug-in hybrid only
(it’s hard to believe that Toyota would let GM to be first on plug in..but who knows..)
3. if you need to choose between the Volt for 30-40K and a redesigned 3rd generation prius for 25-35K which one would you pick?
4. want to buy a decent car w/good mpg and see what future brings..(a VW diesel has 40/50mpg)
5. were bored and got here by accident….

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Arch Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 8:42 am

135 Nasaman
As long as the Saturn remains a parallel system it willnever amount to much.
http://reviews.cnet.com/suv/2008-saturn-vue-hybrid/4505-10868_7-32753224.html

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john1701a Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 11:20 am

>> As long as the Saturn remains a parallel system it will never amount to much.

Using the "parallel" label to identify both types of GM hybrid is clearly becoming a source of confusion.

ASSIST is the design that will never amount to much.

FULL is the design that will offer a plug-in option.

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David Brandow Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 11:37 am

#134, Ruby, I agree with your analysis about the premiums people would be willing to pay. But my comparison would be with the Malibu. The MSRP of a base model Malibu is $20,000. So at a $10K premium on top of that, i.e. $30K, you’d have a huge market for the Volt. At a $15K premium on top of that, i.e. $35K, you’d have a considerably smaller market. At a $28K premium on top of the, i.e. $48K, you’d have a miniscule market. For $28K I can buy *two* Malibus, with room left over, so that falls into the BMW category.

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Arch Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

John1701aI have to disagree. There are kits out there to convert the Toyota to a plug-in. The problem is the IC engine still runs at different speeds and different load levels. You can not get the best milage out of a system like that.

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john1701a Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

>> I have to disagree

ASSIST hybrids wouldn’t benefit much from plug-in augmentation. There’s only a single electric motor, which is small, without active cooling, and unable to operate without the engine turning.

FULL hybrids have two electric motors, at least one is quite large, it is actively cooled, it can operate with the engine motionless, and plug-in options have already been well demonstrated. Electric propulsion without drawing from the battery-pack is an inherit part of the design too.

There was no mention of Volt. So, I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with.

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Arch Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

WOW I have no idea where you are coming from! There is no need for two motors on a FULL hybrid.

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Bryan Says:
March 28th, 2008 at 9:26 am

At $40k most people who signed up to be on the purchase list will ask to be removed. At $30k people would be extremely hesitant. At $30k with tax incentives of 5k or greater will be the only way to get people to buy in mass. GM will lose to Toyota for certain at $40k.

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Jimee#10 Says:
March 28th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Bryan,
I sure have to agree with you. At $30K most people in the regular work force today, couldn’t aford it. And those who think they can, first have to pay off the 5 year mortgage they have on their car now. I believe there will be quite a few choices by 2010, and who ever is the lowest price will gain the most. Almost all the Japan car companies start with cheap cars and rose from there. ( Hunda, Datsun, opps, Nissan, Kia, etc.) Americans were never patriotic when they bought these cars and won’t to the Volt, unless its priced right.

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Kip Says:
March 28th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

I have been following the Volt on this website for a few months now. Until now I was rather encouraged and excited about the prospect of the Volt. The recent info I’ve seen on the Volt has really been a letdown. It went from a 30K car, to a 40K car, to something like ‘it may be priced based on the value it brings in savings over the years’, to now around $48K. That’s just been over the past few months. Imagine what the price will climb to by late 2010. I am beginning to agree with a number of posts I have read here. GM appears to be heading in a bad direction with this car. A car that holds so much promise and has so much to give to the world, looks to be heading to the scrap heap before the first one even rolls off the assembly line. I am more than willing to pay a bit of a premium for something new and exciting like this that has the potential to change the world. But GM appears to be hearing the excitement this car is causing and sees an opportunity to make some big bucks. So instead of being a pioneer to changing the world they appear to be taking the ‘lets see how much we can get for it’ approach. I hope they don’t take that approach. At 30K, I will buy one without giving it a second thought. You get near 40K, and I start to really lose interest. You get near 48K and there’s no way! It’s sad to say, but at this point with the way it’s going, I’m losing interest and the car. Hopefully GM will turn it around. If they don’t, I’m sure someone will.

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noel park Says:
March 28th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

#144 Bryan:
#145 Jimee #10:
#146 Kip:

Well I can talk because I think that I expressed the exact same frustrations above. Upon cooling off a bit, and reading the comments of some wiser heads here on the blog, I would offer the following:

Alas, high prices at the introduction of exciting new products, whether cars, electronic devices, or what have you, are the way of retailing. The Corvette ZR-1 in 1989 sold for $40K over sticker in some cases, but quickly fell back to sticker. What about the recent fiasco with the new Apple phone or whatever it is? Pretty soon, that "early adopter" "skimming price" runs out of gas, and economic reality returns. Priuses are selling for $1000+ off of sticker in LA at the moment, $3.59 gas or not. Somebody here said the other day that, if they only sell 10,000 Volts in 2010, they can probably get $60K each for them. Alas, probably true.

We just have to stay cool, keep our powder dry, and wait until the price gets to where we can stand it. Or, as Jimee said, buy something else, as much as I hate it.

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stopcrazypp Says:
March 28th, 2008 at 8:53 pm

This is a load of BS if that is true; sounds a lot like the EV1 where they heaped all the R&D costs into the price. It’s new tech, you can’t expect R&D to be cheap when R&D of any new car is so expensive already. But component costs shouldn’t be that bad unless the batteries aren’t around $5k like a lot of people are saying, but more than $10k. If it comes out to be $40k or $48k you can expect many prospective buyers to look away. A $40k-$50k starting price is luxury sedan territory! Tesla’s Whitestar would be justified to charge that kind of price, but this is Chevy we are talking about. But I’m going to wait and see before drawing conclusions because I like this car and if I’m getting a car in the future I would want it to be a plugin or an EV.

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solman Says:
March 29th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Each American now owes about 30000 dollars for the mess in Iraq.Maybe our government should have given each family a Volt instead.How about the power companys kicking in a little on development.Id think power companys would invest their own money in developing the car.Long term money in their pockets.Demand for electricity will go up and so will the price.Power companys need to steerpeople their way.The concept of the Volt is great for right now.I like the generator back up for longer trips.Immagine if everyone had one electric car and one gas.I personally feel I should buy even if the price of the car doesnt make up the difference in fuel savings.Its a start on our way to energy independence.Im sure there will be a lot of bugs to work out but we have to start somewhere.Most of the time Id be running on just electricity.Id be great driving by the gas stations in an electric car.Let the Arabs eat dirt.

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Good Andy Says:
March 31st, 2008 at 6:00 pm

48K, 40K, 35K, even 30K is too much… The Prius is 22K!! 25K should be the high-end for what GM is aiming to sell this car for. If GM thinks they’re going to recoup all of their R&D costs by selling only 10,000 units they’re on even more crack than…

#42. Andy

Dude… Rouge nations who use it to sponsor terrorism?!? Ok mr hyptontized-by-mass-media-man. Reality check my friend… We’re paying the money to OPEC, not to any nation at all. And the money we and every other nation must pay to purchase crude oil is US DOLLARS. You cannot purchase crude oil with any other type of currency. OPEC is an oil cartel–they are not a nation. They are not owned by any nation or group of nations. They have more money and power than all of the governments of all of their members states combined… OPEC does not fund violent terrorism, only economic terrorism–and they perpetrate it with the full cooperation and support of the US Federal Reserve central bank. Stop believing what you hear on ABCNNBCBS/FOX.

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J. Collins Says:
April 5th, 2008 at 12:13 am

I am sick and tired of American car companies.. Toyota is going to win. cause they are BOLD.. and daring….

Y’all are stupid to think people will not buy the car if is $48,000.. Yes they will. We buy lots of ridiculous stuff for a lot of money… Build the car PLEASE…They built the hummer and people buy it.. I will buy one used.. I own a trailblazer.. But, I bought it used.. These cars will be the most sought after cars on the planet when then are used.. Their resell value will be though the roof.. It will cost pennies to drive them then.

Let someone else buy it new then I will buy it two year later at $25,000 used.. I have never seen a car more debated on price ever.. What about a $200,000 Porsche.. People buy those…

Build it and let it find it own market.. They are still stupid for not building it years ago…GM…and they will be stupid again for not building it.. As you make more you get the price down… DUH…you have to make the first one…

Some people will trade in cars to get the price down…I would buy it..100% MAKE a SUV version.. what they waiting on.. SLOW…DUH…

Stop worrying about cost.. Build it .. slap a price on it..and see who will buy it….Sell is a profit too… It made better since to make this car than the HUMMER… Just plain stupid..

You broke and think everyone else it broke..If you can’t afford it buy something else.. Like a KIA .. LOL..

Leave GM alone and let them make this next BOLD move..

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J. Collins Says:
April 5th, 2008 at 12:29 am

90% of people on this website don’t understand what a business is… a business is designed to make money… Apple sold the IPHONE for $600… that is almost my rent..

They were not selling to me… People on this site complaining about price… Maye we should lower prices just for you…

I say make then sell it.. They lost market share cause people like y’all.. I cannot afford a new car… they are selling to people who buy new cars… they can afford it.. They will be laughing when they pay it off and when we pay $4 for a gallon gas…

Toyota is laughing at GM and Ford… Toyota will be the number car company in 5 years… and in 20 years will buy FORD in bankruptcy..

GM keeps thinking things are the same..The rules have changed..

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Adam Says:
April 8th, 2008 at 1:32 am

Would be surprised if they will need 20yrs.
They made the entire US car industry kneel already.
It will be over soon..
Especially that the US still not learned the lesson and keeps building bigger and bigger cars .. stuffing ppl’s head with their safety and 4×4 capability stuff while these cars roll over like a cheap *****.. and the customers – like sheep – will obey the media…

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Brian Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

30k or under is my number. upto 35k with options. at 48k someone is on crack.

someone should do the cost comparison of buying a kia at 8k and gas at $10.00 a gallon and see how long to takes to get to the 48k. average daily commute of 40 miles of course.

the volt is about saving money by not buying gas. gm, price yourself out of the normal buyer and youve lost, buyers and your company.

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Jim I Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Brian # 154:

First of all, the Volt is not really about saving money. It is about reducing the amount of gasoline used, for whatever reason that interests you.

But I had a few minutes, so I took up your challenge:

This will be crude, as I am not going to figure in any interest charges on the purchase or maintenance of the vehicles, but it will work for this illustration. This also assume that there will be gasoline available to fuel the Hyundai during the next 10 years…..

The lowest cost new car I could find is a Hyundai Accent GS3 priced at $10,775. I will use $40,000 for the price of the Volt.

The Hundai is rated at 27/32 mpg. Let use 30 mpg to keep the math simple.

At 30 mpg. the Hyundai will use 1.333 gallons for the 40 mile range.
That is 6.665 gallons for a 5 day work week and 333.25 gallons for a 50 week work year, and 3,332.5 gallons of gasoline used in 10 years. At $10.00 per gallon, that would be $33,325.00 for the gasoline plus $10,775 for the car, which is a total of $44,100.00.

The cost to charge the Volt is less than $1.00 per day in Ohio, but I am going to round up to $1.00. That is $5.00 per 5 day work week, and $250.00 per 50 week work year, and $2,500.00 for the 10 year period. Add that to the $40,000.00 Volt, and you have a total of $42,500.00. To keep john1701a happy, I will also add the engine sustaining gas use of 20 gallons of gas used over the 10 years, so that will add $200.00, for a total of $42,700.00.

So there you have it. Over 10 years, a $40,000 Volt is cheaper than a $10,775 Hyundai, when driving 40 miles per day, 5 days per week, when gas is $10.00 per gallon. The Hyundai will use 3,332.5 gallons of gas, and the Volt will use 20.

So which would you rather drive?????

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Al Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

155 Jim,

I say crude! Let’s assume that both buyers have the $50,000 that it would take to buy a Volt in 2012 or 2013. The first buyer puts $10,000 in a Hyundai (with a 10 year warranty) and the other $40,000 in the stock market. The poor volt guy puts all his cash into the Volt. 10 years at 7% later, Volt guy has a 10 year old car way out of warranty. Since it is a Chevy, it is only worth the recycle cash from the battery. Hyundai guy has $78,000 to put down on a 3rd Gen Tesla, and a Hyundai just out of warranty. Which guy would you rather be????

Brought to you by “Truth in Marketing.”

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Jim I Says:
April 10th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

Al:

All I tried to do was give Brian exactly what he asked for in the second sentence of his post. Go back and re-read it.

Other than that, you could “what if” this to death!

What if the stock market crashes?
What if OPEC decides to stop al oil shipments to the USA and gas prices go to $100 / gal?
What if the first 10K Volts become collector’s items and in 2020 are worth $200K?
What if Hyundai goes bankrupt?
What if GM buys Fiskar and then Tesla?
What if Toyota finds out that NiMH batteries cause brain tumors and they are sued out of existance?
What if…?

See what I mean? So your “Truth In Marketing” is no more accurate…

And why is the buyer of a Volt the “poor volt guy”? If that purchase is where he decides to spend his money, who are you to tell him he is wrong? If you do not agree with him, that is your right, but your rights stop when you decide that you can tell me how to live my life!

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Bill Allen Says:
April 11th, 2008 at 11:14 am

I guess I’ll be sticking with my Honda Civic Hybrid, 49-55+ MPG and a cost of $24K.

$40K would price it way out of my reach. I was originally interested because of the moderate price and the possibility of have a diesel, which normally gives better mileage per gal than gas. Now I understand No diesel and high price.

I was a bit surprised to hear diesel was not an option. I understood the car was for an international market. In Europe where fuel prices are substantially higher than in the US a large majority will not buy anything but a diesel because of the economy.

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Al Says:
April 14th, 2008 at 10:34 pm

Jimbo,

Your joke of a reply does not even come close to my reply which took a very conservative approach – most analysts agree 11 % is the 10 year plus avg for market return in the long term, I said 7% to account for 4% inflation. My point, Money has a time value which you ignored, conveniently. Most folks stake their retirement on this FACT.

What if the stock market crashes? ans. Game over, no cars bought.

What if OPEC decides to stop all oil shipments to the USA and gas prices go to $100 / gal? See above answer, same result!

What if the first 10K Volts become collector’s items and in 2020 are worth $200K? Really ridiculous… it is a Chevy, not a Bugatti.

What if Hyundai goes bankrupt? No real effect…

What if GM buys Fiskar and then Tesla? Who cares? Not me

A scary scenario, “What if the Battery pack catches fire and burn up two kids in the back seat?” Ans: GM gets massively sued, end of BEVs, and anything with a LiOn pack. Best be careful!

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Jim I Says:
April 14th, 2008 at 11:19 pm

Sorry Al, but it is you that is not answering the ORIGINAL QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED, and you that introduced all the new variables.

You said the Hyundai with a ten year warranty would still have value. A 10K car at the end of 10 years will still have value? So I put in a “what if” Hyundai goues bankrupt? There would be no 10 year warranty, and no $10K car available to buy. And resale value would be nill. And before you say that is next to impossible, remember that three airlines went bankrupt this week… And by the way, a 1995 Hyundai Accent with 120K miles is work about $600 in “Good” condition for trade in value, according to Kelly Blue Book.

You also said that a 10 year old Chevy would have no value, except for recycle value of the battery. Kind of harsh, don’t you think? A 1995 Chevy Impala cost about $23K with decent options. According to Kelly Blue Book, it would still be worth about $7K in “Good” condition on a trade in with 120K miles. That is hardly scrap value.

And if OPEC stops oil for gasoline? I can still drive 40 miles AER in a Volt, How far can you go in your ICE based vehicle?

The main problem I have with your argument is that if we take your logic to the maximum, we should all take the bus, so we can save all that money for retirement. So therefore we do not need to build ANY cars………

But that is not how I want to live!

And one more time, I answered the question that was asked, and not a long term financial strategy planning session!

So can we agree to disagee?

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Al Says:
April 15th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

You did the comparison that Brian asked about, but I concluded that you did not truly compare the two. You left out the Time Vaule of money, as in what cost can be assigned to the money saved by NOT buying the Volt and buying the Hyundai Accent instead. At the end of 10 years that little Accent is still worth $1350, but an Impala was NOT manufactured in 1998. I checked and a Malibu was, its resale value is about $3300. $50,000 is too much money for a car. That is the opinion of most middle class Americans. To that end, not too many GM vehicles sell for that much. The cost alone puts the Volt in the company and competition for folks that can afford $50,000 cars, like BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Acura and the like. I really don’t see them abandoning their really nice cars to save some gas, do you?

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Charlie H Says:
April 16th, 2008 at 7:59 am

Jim I, That $10K 1995 Impala is hardly representative of 10 year old GM gars. It’s an SS, probably very limited in quantity. For a more realistic appraisal, look at the 1994 Impala. World of difference. Or check a Lumina or whatever from that era.

If you must factor in $10 gas to make the Volt look better thana Hyundai, forget the comparison altogether. If we have $10 gas to deal with, we’ll be in deeeep doo doo and your car’s fuel economy will be the very least of your worries.

Moreover, the consumer buying the Volt won’t be thinking in terms of $10 gas. They’ll be thinking about $4 and worrying about $5. If the Volt can’t compete at $5/gallon, it’s not going to sell.

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At $40,000 the Volt Would Result in No Profit for GM

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