Comments on: Volt Pricing to Take High Battery Warranty Cost into Account

By: anvilis

anvilis — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:27:29 +0000

Batteries will improve by leaps and bounds over the 10 year warranty period. I am most likely going to want to replace the battery after 5 years anyway. I expect GM to provide a battery warranty as an optional cost. Build in the cost of, say, a 5 year warranty (low risk), and charge an additional fee for an extended 10 year warranty. By the sounds of it, this extended period is where GM expects to suffer the most losses. This method provides a lower cost vehicle to the consumer, and it lowers the risk to GM. Everyone wins.

By: Kathy Smith

Kathy Smith — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 06:01:11 +0000

i have a problem with my Li-ion batteries. i don’t know if this one needs to be replaced or what…

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By: Jeremy

Jeremy — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:47:32 +0000

In addition to standard failure modes associated with Li-ion batteries, there will inevitably be failure modes associated with large scale manufacturing and process variability that comes with it. There will be failures that can’t be predicted until manufacturing volumes are sufficiently high and the process can be dialed in. Without knowing the fallout rate from manufacturing, they have to make conservative estimates initially.

By: Bob Goldschmidt

Bob Goldschmidt — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:01:39 +0000

This is an ideal area for the government to provide subsidy. By taking on part of the warranty exposure, the government will more quickly reduce our dependence on imported oil as well as lower CO2 emissions.

By the way, it appears that Johnson Controls is building a major lithium battery manufacturing plant here in the US.

By: Thomdbhom

Thomdbhom — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:14:01 +0000

#53 voltman

Thanks. I hope I’m not becoming annoying with my questions. I just want to understand the details supporting a high battery warranty cost. You mentioned a few things the batteries need to do. By the time Volts are available, I imagine that GM will understand most of those things:

-energy density
- power rate (charge/discharge)
- cycle life
- High/low ambient temperature performance (-40 degF – 140 degF)
- Safety
- cost
- production

After all, GM will put the batteries through many tests to simulate conditions and determine boundaries. GM may also have a good idea about calendar life.
I guess I’m not convinced that a high battery warranty cost is sufficiently justified. In the end, I guess it doesn’t matter. GM will price the vehicle as they see fit, and they don’t need to justify the price to the public. It will be offered and we can choose to buy it or not. I won’t belabor this point anymore.

By: voltman

voltman — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:54:07 +0000

Thom, lithium ion batteries can be made in many different ways. The big breakthrough was using cobalt dioxide which is what is probably in your phone and laptop. This increased the energy density but has a short cycle life, calendar life(even when unused they will die way before 10 years) and is prone to thermal runaway if a failure happens.

The batteries gm is considering do not use cobalt dioxide, but raither iron phosphate or manganese. Obviously this changes the battery characteristics in many different ways. Both are much safer, but have a smaller energy density, which means higher cost. A123’s batteries have been in power tools for less than a year but by the time 2010 rolls around, they still won’t have 10 years of data.

In short, these batteries have to do quite a few things, some that current commercial batteries just cannot do:

10+ years calendar life
High energy density
High power rate (charge/discharge)
High cycle life (3600+)
High/low ambient temperature performance (-40 degF – 140 degF)
Safety (1 car that blows up in road testing is game over)
Low cost
Mass production

By: Thomdbhom

Thomdbhom — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:45:08 +0000

#51 Grizzly
Respectfully, all I hear are vague fears that will cost me $ to cover the high battery warranty. Lithium ion batteries have existed since, what, the ’80’s? We should have some understanding about their life cycle and performance. If GM doesn’t have confidence in the batteries, I’d like to know why, specifically. Chemistry? Durability?

By: Grizzly

Grizzly — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 22:34:46 +0000

Thom,

They don’t know if the battery is more prone to failure, but they must err on the side of caution. At the 5 year point they may have no problems, but then repeated failures 5-10 years out. This could prove expensive.

In the case of lead acid batteries there is a tremendous amount of past data that allows estimates with pretty good accuracy of when the battery will fail. These have been used for more than 100 years. With these li-ion packs this data doesn’t exist. You can be very confident, as A-123’s people suggest they are, but if you’re GM you’ve got to be cautious.

By: Thomdbhom

Thomdbhom — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:06:38 +0000

So, if the battery isn’t any more prone to failure, why, "bake in a very substantial warranty cost…?" Perhaps, after repeated use, it might not live up to expectations?

By: Thomdbhom

Thomdbhom — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:49:28 +0000

I love you guys!