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Volt Pricing to Take High Battery Warranty Cost into Account

March 14th, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, Warranty

GM vice -chairman Bob Lutz told reporters some of the Volts recently increased pricing reflects the high cost of warrantying the lithium-ion batteries.

He said:

“We are going to bake in a very substantial warranty cost for the battery in our overall pricing calculation,”

and

“We need to be conservative, simply because it’s the first time we’ve done anything like this.”

Lutz did not give reporters details on the packs cost or duration of any warranty, but PHEV analyst Menahem Anderman told the reporter that the Volt’s pack would cost about $10,000.

One interesting corollary on Lutz’ comments is that GM might no longer be thinking about leasing the battery at this point.
Source (Canada.com)

Posted by: Lyle

58 Responses to “Volt Pricing to Take High Battery Warranty Cost into Account”

Tim Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 10:30 am

Volvo Recharge Concept takes the roadhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d42Dic3jHPQ

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Jeff J Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 10:44 am

Glad to see warranty covers battery over the long haul and never liked the lease gimmick. What happens if the battery don’t have any major issues over there life span? Would lower the Volts price ? I’m guessing we have a lot of price issues coming up before 2010. Good Day

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calgaryvolt Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 10:46 am

I would rather have the option of leasing the battery pack and maybe paying a lower cost for a reduced warranty and have a new battery pack every few years especially if battery technology and range continues to improve after the car is released.

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Jeff J Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 10:47 am

Would GM lower the price of the Volt? sorry forgot to add GM

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:03 am

Tim #1

Many thanks, it runs.
I had the occasion to ask the Volvo people in Brussels in January and they said they didn’t know when the concept will be on the roads.

What means the accompanying texte : "Saab and Volvo launch a cooperation for the plug-hybrid veichle" ?

Does anybody know about this cooperation ?

In fact behind the scenes, is a cooperation between Ford and GM on plug-in electric vehicles on the agenda ?

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Mark Bartosik Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:03 am

RE #2 Jeff.

Think of the added cost for the battery warranty as an underwriting/insurance cost. As they get more experience they will be better able to statistically predict the average lifetime/warranty claim and thus refine the insurance cost.

Whether you buy or lease the risk is what has to be priced, and it is either rolled into the lease price or the purchase price. Leasing puts more risk on the company providing the lease, since if there is a higher failure rate, more people will opt to return the vehicle/battery at the end of the lease. In either case it must be priced in.

If the battery is more reliable then they make more profit, if it is less reliable maybe the higher initial price buffers them enough from losses.

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Grizzly Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:04 am

I wouldn’t want two payments on the Volt, car and battery lease, but I think they should consider a less expensive reduced battery warranty car. If they’re thinking about a 10 year batt warranty as part of the cost, they might consider an optional less expensive car with a 5 year batt. warranty. I might even opt for that and take a chance on possibly replacing the batt in 5-6.

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Ernie Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:08 am

I hope they do not lease the battery as that would be a deal killer for me. To me the idea is to get out from others control along with all other benefits of the electric car. It will remain to be seen how long it takes the electric companies to screw us at the same levels as the oil monopolies and the congress who allow oil speculation with no apparent controls. The American Political system has become one of the biggest enemies of the American people looking out for their individual power and party loyalty first , international corporations second, foreign interests third and then if anything is left over the American citizen. You can witness how stupid they all think we are by the current pathetic presidential campaign – this country is doomed .

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Jeff J Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:13 am

#6 Mark Thanks , I am not up on insurance/underwriting .#7 Grizzly I agree.

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Jeff J Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:17 am

I believe that in 5 years this battery cost issue all become a non-issue as the price of the battery packs drop from $10k to $5k and hopefully to $2k .

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Crows Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:39 am

Honestly though?

Just how much more dancing around is Lutz going to do?

This is GM’s opportunity to score and to score big ,but they keep on dropping the ball!

Does Lutz not know that oil has hit 110 dollars a barrel?

WE need the VOLT right NOW!!!

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Grizzly Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:40 am

Jeff J,

Correct, and just because you opt only for the 5 year warranty doesn’t mean your hand is forced at 5 years, it just means that you don’t have any warranty beyond that. The batt. might last 10, but if it does go, I believe you might even get a 20kwh for $5K, sort of like taking a small gamble, but we’ll see.

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Van Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:47 am

Thanks Lyle, a very informative post. The battery cost is in line with a $750/kwh price, which would seem likely to decrease in the out years. Second, provided the batteries perform well, then the cost of the insurance will also decrease in the out years.

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Brian M Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:56 am

Would a massive battery warranty be mandatory? If so, maybe GM could write something into the contract that says "If there are less battery failures than expected in the next five years, each original Volt buyer will receive a rebate on a new GM car" or something like that. Probably wishful thinking i guess…

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Statik Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

I have am a contractor for GM in my business (clothing)…and let me tell you, if you sell something to GM, they make you back it up.

There is absolutely no way, they won’t have a deal with these battery manufacturers that if there is failure within the warrantly timeframe the manufacturers will replace it. It is like that with every last one of their suppliers.

If it was just warranty, they’d sell it like all their other extended warranties. "Here is your Volt sir. Do you want the extended battery warranty with that?"

It is going to be hard to justify this reasoning at all when the i-Miev will already be to market with claims of $25,000 for the base model (includes 16kw pack) and $29,900 ‘whistles’ model (with the 20kw pack)

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Statik Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

ER, that should read…I am a contractor for GM, lol

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john1701a Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Study hybrid history.

Honda had a "recal" problem, where the SOC (battery state-of-charge level) was incorrectly being measured and abruptly recalibrate after awhile. Imagine the warranty liability if that had rolled out large quantities of that early product.

GM should have taken the need seriously years back, rather than mocking hybrids with that "stop gap" nonsense. Now they really need to make a well refined product quickly. The opportunity for gradual introduction is gone. Oil is currently triple what it was… now at $110.01 per barrel.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

#5 Jean-Charles Jacquemin

Try this for some info on Saab and Volvo hybrid.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/03/14/080949.html

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Jon P. Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 1:08 pm

I’d prefer not to lease the batteries, because i’m already going to have a car payment & insurance. I don’t really want to have to make 3 seperate payments each month for 1 car but….
Leasing does leave the option of upgrading to a larger pack as the become available alot more feasible.
Honestly as long as the battery is modular and can be easily replaced or upgraded i’m happy.

PS as far as li-ion batteries are concerned i have old dell laptops from 99 with their original batteries (probably sony) that still function and hold a charge. Not just 1 i’m a systems Admin and have dozens of these batteries. Some have degraded over time, but for the most part the ones that still work, work fine.
Point being these packs are from the infancy period of li-ion technology and they seem very reliable, so to me the only problem with getting these now would be the manufacturing process. Being the first to build anything as precise as li-ion car batteries on the scale GM is proposing, at a price of $10,000 a piece is a gamble. Alot of room for failure there. (in the battery manufacturing)
Either way just get it out as fast as you can without sacraficing the quality of the product, as some have mentioned before what is 2 years compared to the possibility of electryfying the car.
I’m happy in 09′, 10′,11′,12′

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thomdbhomb Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

How have the 10-year/100k-mile warranties affected the price of other vehicles?

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ug Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

"I had the occasion to ask the Volvo people in Brussels in January and they said they didn’t know when the concept will be on the roads."The guy behind the Volvo Recharge said that it is at least a DECADE away. So forget it even exists because you’ll probably never see it.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

#20. My 2002 Hyundai Elantra had a 60,000 mile bumper to bumper, and 100,000 power train warranty. It cost only $13.5K out the door. It now has 160,000 miles on it and still runs like a new. I had to use the warranty once at 30,000 miles when the alternator broke. That is it. So I say that the other vehicles 100K warranty didn’t matter much with the price that I paid for my new car. At $13.5K, 160,000 miles, and no problems, I say I got a real bargain. GM needs to do the same.

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jscott1000 Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Conventional ICE warranty costs are low because the technology is over 100 years old. Large array Li-Ion battery packs are….well no one has built one yet and put it into a commercial product. Okay, maybe the Tesla, then I would say the technology is in it’s infancy and predicting battery life is a crap shoot. GM is playing it safe and unless they want to lose billions of dollars they have to do that.

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kent beuchert Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

I’ve been thinking and it seems to me that here would be a perfect opportunity for the Feds to help out, with probably very little likelihood of having to shell out a lot of taxpayer
money : simply become the battery pack warranty backer.
I like that idea better than a straight lump sum for buying the car.

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calgaryvolt Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

This is a bit of a stretch right now and I think this might be the road that GM is wanting to head in the future but if it’s not I would like to see a platform developed which includes the vehicle body, electronic, interior and small ICE. After that I’d like to see an assortment of battery options (20 mile, 40 mile, 100 mile electric range) that could be put into the vehicle based on the consumers need. This would allow for better pricing per consumer and also a car that is suited to their needs. I also allows for upgrading to larger or smaller packs as time goes on. These battery packs could either be bought or leased based on the consumers desire.

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GXT Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

"We are going to bake in a very substantial warranty cost for the battery…"

I guess when they said the batteries were meeting or exceeding their specs they didn’t mean ALL the specs.

So does this mean that GM now knows that the batteries are unlikely to meet the 10-year spec that they originally defined? Or is it an admission that they have no idea? Either way, I guess the battery situation isn’t quite as rosy as Say-Whatever-He-Feels-Like-Lutz has indicated.

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Jeff M Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

While the battery may not be a leased battery, I don’t think that means that you won’t be able to lease the whole Volt???

I’ve never leased a vehicle… nor ever taken a loan out for one (I’m one of those who keep driving a vehicle for 10+ years so have always saved enough to make an outright purchase on the next one)… however if I were to be an early adopter (something I’m not usually, just bought my 1st flat planel HDTV 4 months ago, and 1st cell phone last August, and still don’t own a laptop) I would seriously consider a lease depending on the terms, for the Volt (or any other 1st year production model EV).

Regarding #1, the Volvo Recharge concept… I posted in the other forum with the EV "head count" that Popular Science has the volvo Recharge concept
on the cover and a 2 page spread…. a side bar says we won’t see it until "2015" most likely. Looks sweet though with those 4 wheel (not hub it says, apparently there’s a distinction) motors.

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Talks Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

Hope Warranty cost is included in 35K.
Anyway paying 35K for VOLT is too much for me. I would rather buy a bigger and reliable 20K 4cyl Honda Accord and use the remaining 15K to pay for gas for the life of the car.
If the cost doesn’t come down, Volt will definitely remain as a fancy item and not the car of the masses. But I will be a enthusiastic spectator till VOLT gets released.
Venezuela opened up Orinoco Heavy oil belt which contains around 300 blillion barrels for oil refinaries and Chevron recently announced abt a process that can convert 100% of
the heavy oil to gasoline/Diesel/Jetfuel. Hope Fuel costs will come down in few years.

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thomdbhomb Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

#23 scott1000

"Conventional ICE warranty costs are low because the technology is over 100 years old. Large array Li-Ion battery packs are….well no one has built one yet and put it into a commercial product. "

People have been using batteries for over 100 years. Granted, Li-ion batteries are a variation on a theme. But, it is still a battery. A Li-ion battery’s "moving parts" consist of the ions and electrons. They aren’t as complicated as a mechanical device, such as an ICE. Batteries have even been used in automobiles for a long time. Auto batteries have been subjected to charging cycles, thermal extremes, and "jostling." Those potential failure routes seem easy to simulate. In what other scenarios might a Li-ion battery fail? What other fears might require an abundance of caution?

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Grizzly Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

thomdbhomb #29

Auto batts. are no where near as complicated as these batteries.   Let your typical lead-acid car battery run down once or twice and see how long it lasts.

The only type of testing for these packs is simulated modeling, and again that’s not exactly real world, so it is a big question mark.

I like the idea of a reduced cost 5 year batt. because I’ll bet both GM and A123/CPI could be fairly confident the battery would last that long. The next 5 years are a much bigger concern, hence the "baked in cost".    Anything to bring down the cost of an emerging technology and help out a "first to market" product.



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Shawn Marshall Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 4:25 pm

Supply and demand determine the price of this car. They’re just giving you a leeetle icing in the cake.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Basic economics for those who think China, India et al will continue to emerge robustly. Oil prices will not subside much, if at all, until a competing technology obsoletes the ICE for autos.
Let’s get Volted by Generous Motors.

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Rockyroad Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

Here is what Mitsubishi is doing …. about the same testing and dates as the Volt … http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/02/mitsubishi_i_miev_electric_car.php

and http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/02/mitsubishi-i-miev-electric-car-global.php

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Rockyroad Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Jan 24, 2008 – Mitsubishi Electric are – 160 km Cruising Range. "Mitsubishi aims to launch mass-production of electric vehicles in 2009."
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080124/146156/

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Jim I Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 5:05 pm

So we are already back to believing Mr. Lutz?

:)

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Rashiid #18

Many thanks, the evolution in this domain is quick. From the post you refer to I think we may deduce that the carmakers want to keep ICE on the road as long as possible. But the evolution of he oil price may induce the consumers to delay the purchase of new cars if they are only sold with an ICE.

From rumors I hear here in Belgium, more and more people say they will wait to buy a new car until other propulsion systems than ICes are on the market and the number of new cars sold is decrasing due to the anticipation that the resale price of an used ICE car in five to ten years from now will be a lot less than it is today.

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Jeff J Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

#36 Jean-Charles its funny you say that ,I have been telling my friends and family to wait a couple of years and see what shakes out with the new PHEV – EV -ICE _ hybrid . Although most people are shocked and surprised when I show them the Volt and then they start licking there lips like a starving dog when I let them know that 95% of there driving is gas FREE. hehehe Changing the world one car at a time !!! nice slogan hey!!

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Mike G. Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

Lease might not be so bad after all. Buy the car. Return the battery and drive the volt without it for a lot less than 35K. 50mi per gallon ain’t bad! Then add an after market battery that will give you 5miles all electric for a lot less. Save up your money and gradually increase the range by adding more batteries. It sure would be nice if this was a real option. Heck why wait on the battery packs sale the Volt in 2009! I can see it now. Get your Volt now… batteries not included.

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Ter Meenal Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

Th!nk uses a different financing model for their batteries. They have developed a rather interesting version of a battery ‘rental’ modal. Here is how it works;
1) You pay a monthly rent for the battery.
2) Using telemetrics (cellular data transmissions) Th!nk monitors the real time state of the battery.
3) When the battery drops to a specific health level (40% of new?) they simply replace the battery. (no additional fees are incurred)
4) They also use a portion of the ‘rent’ to pay for the charging of the battery. (the onboard telemetrics automatically talks to their system, and lets them know when you are charging so they can easily calculate the rate values)
5) They also pay, out of the rent, a carbon credit tax which is used to help energy producers invest in cleaner energy production solutions.

Now the common complaint that seems to be raised at this point is that the ‘rental’ is currently 200 euros and, OMG!, this is going to convert to over 300 dollars U.S. which will make the entire plan untenable. The answer to this lies in the fact that cars that are common between both Europe and North America are not priced equally. For instance a vehicle which costs 20,000 euros doesn not end up costing 30,000 U.S. dollars when brought over here. (quite often the vehicle comes in close to 20,000 dollars).

Something to th!nk about……

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Thomdbhom Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

#30 Grizzly

I understand that batteries have a casing, anode, cathode, electrolyte, seperator, and terminals. Other than the materials used, how are auto batteries more complicated than Li-ion batteries? Also, besides simulated modeling, couldn’t you put battery packs in a mule and test them?

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Grizzly Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

Thomdbhom #40

Regular "auto" 12V lead acid batteries are not as complicated as 300+ cell li-ion packs ramped up for BEV use, I think that goes w/o saying. Add to that that a ramped up pack with 300+ wafer cells needs a pretty good BMS to monitor conditions for safety, charging etc.

You cannot put packs into Mules and drive them for 10 years to make sure they last 10 years. Well…actually you could but unfortunately GM would miss their 2010-11 target. ;( This is why they torture test them in simulated conditions and extrapolate.

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Jeff J Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

#40 thom are you joking? , a 16 kilowatt Li-ion vs. 12v lead acid, Please go back on this site and read the posts over the last year , you will find more tech info on battery tech then 99% of people around you know. Its really fascinating stuff .

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voltman Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:12 pm

Considering that I have to replace my laptop battery every 2 years, I would be very scared if I were asked to warranty a battery that I had only tested for 2-3 years. They will have to estimate the failure rate as a range like 20-50%. Like any sane person, they will use the higher figure to cover their bases. This would meant the real cost of the battery would be 15k and would not include the electric motor or the ice.

In 5 years the same pack will cost less than half as much and the failure rate will be lower and better known.

A company can be much more confident when providing a 6-10 year warranty on a normal drivetrain since they have so much data on that type.

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Mike G. Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

Battery pack longevity is currently unproven. Many suspect it will follow the same route as the prius type batteries. Opponents yelled about the short life of the expensive batteries and very few have ever needed to be replaced.

You will certainly see long life out of a volt battery over your laptop because the batteries in the volt will not be 100% charge or deep discharged ever.

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Thomdbhom Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 12:03 am

Is Nasaman spacing out? Where is he when I need him?

#41 Grizzly
Please forgive my naivete. I’d like to be educated. Every rechargeble battery I’ve experienced (car, golf cart, watch, flashlight, electronic device, etc.) has operated on the same principles, has been relatively tough, and seemingly uncomplicated from the outside. I just want to know why the Volt’s battery is more "complicated." I understand that people have put a lot of thought and effort into Li-ion technology to increase energy densitiy. But, is a li-ion battery more prone to failure than any other type of battery? Being somewhat nerdy, I was hoping for a more detailed explanation than "That goes w/o saying." I was looking for something like, "that goes w/ saying…"

#42 Jeff J
I’m not joking. I’m just ignorant and inquisitive. Most of what I read talks about maximizing energy density and minimizing weight. I’ve read somethings about the seperator. I really haven’t seen anything discussing the suggested high fragility or potential problems associated with a Volt battery (except for the exploding battery concern that most of us here agree is a non-issue). As you suggested, I attempted to find the information elsewhere on this site. I didn’t find it. Can you provide a link discussing why a li-ion battery for the Volt would be more problematic than any other type of battery?

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nasaman Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 1:30 am

45 Thomdbhom…..

I’ve been reading the referenced article & the many comments here, but have been hesitant to add a comment that wouldn’t contribute anything much. Let me try this…..

Just for discussion purposes, let’s assume the Volt pack produces 300V and consists of 8 sub-packs (as has been speculated). This could mean each sub-pack has 83-84 cells in series and the 8 sub-packs are in parallel with each other. Regardless of the exact configuration (since the cell voltage is ~3.6V) almost any arrangement of cells has to place a large number in series (to reach 300V).

In any long-life battery, failure bypassing of each cell is mandatory, since one cell failure mode is as an OPEN circuit. Every cell MUST therefore be bypassed (by power diodes or by relay contacts, for example) to avoid loss of the entire sub-pack …..which would be the result if only one cell failed OPEN & the cells were not by-passed. Fortunately, diode (or relay) bypass of cells is extremely reliable, so even if several cells failed the pack would still produce useable output power.

In other words, an important advantage of a high-voltage battery made up of a large number of by-passed cells is that the TOTAL LOSS of a cell as either an OPEN or SHORT would scarcely be noticed —so if the individual cells are as only reliable as those used in cell phones today, a battery like the Volt’s with perhaps (83×8 = 664) failure-bypassed cells should be able to tolerate the total loss of probably at least 15-20 cells without significantly affecting the Volt’s range or performance. I believe it’s unlikely more than 5-6 cells in the Volt’s battery will fail or degrade significantly over the battery’s life.

For this reason I’m confident the Volt’s battery will still be fully useable after 15 years and countless charge/recharge cycles. ……There is strength in numbers (like 664 cells)!

PS: Tesla, with ~10X more cells in their battery, is counting on this!

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Jeff J Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 2:41 am

Once again nasaman comes to the rescue , Thanks nasaman even if I tried I couldn’t have written that better , Tom I have read hundreds of pages of info about battery tech and between me and you most of it fly’s over my head too (grease monkey here) ! I didn’t mean to put you down because I have read many of your posts before and found them every straight forward . So knowing that you followed this site I found it strange that you didn’t see the 12v lead acid vs Li-ion difference’s . As a auto tech I have seen every way a 12v LA battery can fail , I have never seen a Ni-MH battery in a car and a Li-ion is totally out of the question,basically after working on new technology expect the unexpected . As far as links to prove Grizzly & nasaman & my points A123 systems has delivered a grand total of 3 battery packs to GM and all the R&D paper work from conti/a123 has been given to GM, wait a min. Holy crap I just proved your point there is no proof that LI-ion is less stable then a Lead acid, their really is no proof Yet LOL. have a good night.

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jabroni Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 9:02 am

Menahem Anderman is an ignorant, paid shill who proffers nothing but mendacities. Not one word he utters can be believed.

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Thomdbhom Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

I love you guys!

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Thomdbhom Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

So, if the battery isn’t any more prone to failure, why, "bake in a very substantial warranty cost…?" Perhaps, after repeated use, it might not live up to expectations?

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Grizzly Says:
March 15th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

Thom,

They don’t know if the battery is more prone to failure, but they must err on the side of caution. At the 5 year point they may have no problems, but then repeated failures 5-10 years out. This could prove expensive.

In the case of lead acid batteries there is a tremendous amount of past data that allows estimates with pretty good accuracy of when the battery will fail. These have been used for more than 100 years. With these li-ion packs this data doesn’t exist. You can be very confident, as A-123’s people suggest they are, but if you’re GM you’ve got to be cautious.

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Thomdbhom Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 1:45 am

#51 Grizzly
Respectfully, all I hear are vague fears that will cost me $ to cover the high battery warranty. Lithium ion batteries have existed since, what, the ’80’s? We should have some understanding about their life cycle and performance. If GM doesn’t have confidence in the batteries, I’d like to know why, specifically. Chemistry? Durability?

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voltman Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Thom, lithium ion batteries can be made in many different ways. The big breakthrough was using cobalt dioxide which is what is probably in your phone and laptop. This increased the energy density but has a short cycle life, calendar life(even when unused they will die way before 10 years) and is prone to thermal runaway if a failure happens.

The batteries gm is considering do not use cobalt dioxide, but raither iron phosphate or manganese. Obviously this changes the battery characteristics in many different ways. Both are much safer, but have a smaller energy density, which means higher cost. A123’s batteries have been in power tools for less than a year but by the time 2010 rolls around, they still won’t have 10 years of data.

In short, these batteries have to do quite a few things, some that current commercial batteries just cannot do:

10+ years calendar life
High energy density
High power rate (charge/discharge)
High cycle life (3600+)
High/low ambient temperature performance (-40 degF – 140 degF)
Safety (1 car that blows up in road testing is game over)
Low cost
Mass production

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Thomdbhom Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 10:14 pm

#53 voltman

Thanks. I hope I’m not becoming annoying with my questions. I just want to understand the details supporting a high battery warranty cost. You mentioned a few things the batteries need to do. By the time Volts are available, I imagine that GM will understand most of those things:

-energy density
- power rate (charge/discharge)
- cycle life
- High/low ambient temperature performance (-40 degF – 140 degF)
- Safety
- cost
- production

After all, GM will put the batteries through many tests to simulate conditions and determine boundaries. GM may also have a good idea about calendar life.
I guess I’m not convinced that a high battery warranty cost is sufficiently justified. In the end, I guess it doesn’t matter. GM will price the vehicle as they see fit, and they don’t need to justify the price to the public. It will be offered and we can choose to buy it or not. I won’t belabor this point anymore.

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Bob Goldschmidt Says:
March 17th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

This is an ideal area for the government to provide subsidy. By taking on part of the warranty exposure, the government will more quickly reduce our dependence on imported oil as well as lower CO2 emissions.

By the way, it appears that Johnson Controls is building a major lithium battery manufacturing plant here in the US.

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Jeremy Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 9:47 am

In addition to standard failure modes associated with Li-ion batteries, there will inevitably be failure modes associated with large scale manufacturing and process variability that comes with it. There will be failures that can’t be predicted until manufacturing volumes are sufficiently high and the process can be dialed in. Without knowing the fallout rate from manufacturing, they have to make conservative estimates initially.

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Kathy Smith Says:
April 4th, 2008 at 1:01 am

i have a problem with my Li-ion batteries. i don’t know if this one needs to be replaced or what…

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The ProAuto Guard Product Warranty Includes:

Coverage for 5 Years/100,000 ADDITIONAL miles on all internally lubricated parts of the:

* Engine

* Transmission

* Transfer Case

ZERO Deductible!

* 30 Day Money Back Guarantee

* Major Credit Cards Accepted

* EZ Pay Plans with 0% Interest

TRANSFER TO SECOND OWNER! Use your warranty to increase the resale of your used vehicle!

Rental Car Reimbursement

Roadside Assistance/5 years of coverage

* 24 hour Emergency Road Service

* Towing

* Mechanical First Aid

* Battery Assistance

* Gasoline Delivery

* Fluid Delivery

* Emergency Lock-out service

* Nationwide Coverage

* Toll-free 800 Number

* 24 Hours a Day/365 Days a Year

* $2,000 Gift Card with Any Warranty Purchase

National Coverage in both the U.S. and Canada (any ASE Certified repair facility!)

Backed by the stability of a 130 year old, 5 Billion dollar, A rated Insurance Company

Shortest waiting period, claims accepted after only 30-days!

75% refund if you do not make a claim during the life of the policy.

Warranty Distributorship’s available!!!
visit – http://fxchief.mywfl.com

Call, email or visit the site for further information.

Click on Buy A Warranty to Purchase. http://fxchief.warrantiesforless.com

(Quote)
anvilis Says:
April 28th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

Batteries will improve by leaps and bounds over the 10 year warranty period. I am most likely going to want to replace the battery after 5 years anyway. I expect GM to provide a battery warranty as an optional cost. Build in the cost of, say, a 5 year warranty (low risk), and charge an additional fee for an extended 10 year warranty. By the sounds of it, this extended period is where GM expects to suffer the most losses. This method provides a lower cost vehicle to the consumer, and it lowers the risk to GM. Everyone wins.

(Quote)

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