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More with Contintenal EV Director on the A123/Conti Chevy Volt Battery Pack Development

March 13th, 2008 | Posted in: Battery, GM Q and A

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Below are more questions and answers with Darryn Nowicki Electric Vehicle Director, Continental Automotive, one of the Chevy Volt pack-making team members.
What is the process of building up to be able to make packs on a mass scale?

As far as being able to mass produce the batteries, we are gearing up to be able to do lithium-ion battery pack production later this years (for Mercedes) and basically the concept for the Volt is taking the similar technology that we’ve developed for Mercedes and we intend on fine-tuning that, because it is a different cell. We would anticipate being able to have that sort of mass production setup from the end of this year for the Mercedes application and that same technology and process would be very transferable to what we are doing on the Volt.

So basically we don’t have to go off and re-invent a complete new manufacturing process just for the Volt battery.

So some of the same elements you will be using for the Mercedes pack will be interchangeable for the Volt?

The basic manufacturing and production concept would be very similar. We try to do everything for our products a very modular and scalable fashion so that with the market being very immature and very erratic we want to be able to reuse as much of the different pieces from application to application so that we can try to give our customers the best benefit of economies of scale.

Would you say you are very confident in being able to make the Volts battery packs workable, safe, and in large quantities by 2010?

Large quantities in terms of the quantities GM is asking for. Yes. We are all very much behind that goal. We don’t see anything that is a show-stopper, absolutely.

Do you feel very confident in the safety of these packs?

Yes. The A123 cells, their chemistry, their claims in what they are able to achieve and their claims about how much safer they are inherently just due to the chemistry. So there is three tiers of safety for the batteries. The first one is just how inherently safe the cell itself is, and the A123 chemistry looks to be very very stable. So they’ve got something very special there. What can you do at the cell level to make the cell safe, and then the pack itself. So when you look at all these things together and the level of safety that we’re able to put in place there’s a lot of flexibility that allows us to feel very confident about these battery packs.

In your early production work and testing do you find that the heating of the packs is not a big deal?

This is why we have the controls in there as one element of insuring the safety the is the cells cant be allowed to go at too hot a temperature so it is something to be concerned about but again the inherent safety of the A123 chemistry helps that it doesn’t go into some of these more catastrophic events that you might see with some of these older lithium ion technologies. And then by having the experience that we have by being able to control the overall system and maintain a solid temperature and maintain a solid state of charge so the control algorithms that we have in place as well all contribute to creating a safer system.

We’ve been working on lithium in technology since 2003, so we’ve had quite a few years of experience with these.

GM has specifications, and the initial LG/CPI packs are basically T-shaped and modular roughly contain 300 cell in 8 modules, are you guys designing your packs along similar proportions?

Similar physical proportions I would say yes thats a correct statement, basically the car is being designed around the body. We do have a modular approach with these batteries and there are a certain number of cells per module and a number of modules, I think our numbers are actually different on the “guts” if you will than Compact Power has and I think thats mostly related to the overall energy content of that A123 has in each cell.

We might add that Continental is working with several different battery cell providers. The one were doing later this year with Mercedes is what we consider our first generation lithium-ion pack that uses certain cell chemistry and manufacturer. We also have a another one that will be ready potentially a year later, and the third one is A123. So we have three right now that we’ve been dealing with and I think thats one of the things that makes us a strong player in this market is that we are not tied to any specific cell chemistry or manufacturer, it gives us a lot more flexibility and gives our customers a lot more flexibility to be able to come to Continental, who has that vast knowledge of various different chemistries of lithium ion and being able to put together a complete battery system for them. So I think the OEMs truly value that.

So Continental is positioning themselves to become a leading provider of lithium-ion battery packs in the future?

Correct. And also I would add, that while we are best known as a tire-maker, tires are approximately 25-20% of our business. the other two-thirds are electronics.

Is there any interaction between your team and LG Chem/CPI, or are you all in the dark about each others efforts?

I cant say that I know much about what they’re doing so I wont say whether were kept in the dark and I can’t speak for my colleagues in Germany in as far as how much they’re hearing or being involved, but in general I think the two teams are fairly separated.

Posted by: Lyle

35 Responses to “More with Contintenal EV Director on the A123/Conti Chevy Volt Battery Pack Development”


  1. Brian M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Brian M     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 12:57 am

    I would like to know whether any part of their manufacturing process would take place in North America.  

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  2. NZDavid
    Vote -1 Vote +1NZDavid     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 1:45 am

    His confidence is good. Who are the other two manufacturers?  

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  3. Jean-Charles Jacquemin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jean-Charles Jacquemin     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 3:08 am

    NZ David #2

    Johnson Controls-Saft Advanced Power Solutions  seems to be one of them as they have a good experience in Li batteries. I have seen before (sorry impossible to find the source again) they are could be working with Continental.

    For instance Saft batteries power the ATV Jules Verne on its maiden mission to re-supply the International Space Station
    Saft is supplying specialised primary lithium and rechargeable Ni-Cd batteries to support vital functions on the spacecraft.

    And they also supply batteries for Airbus, in they last press release, you can read : "Saft, world specialist in the design and manufacture of high-tech batteries for industry, announces that Airbus has chosen its lithium-ion battery systems as the starting and emergency power supply on the A350 aircraft."
    See http://www.saftbatteries.com/000-corporate/pdf/12-08_eng.pdf
      

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  4. nasaman
    Vote -1 Vote +1nasaman     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 7:08 am

    2 NZDavid & 3 Jean-Charles Jacquemin

    An excellent description of Saft, Jean-Charles! Here’s the story on LG Chem….

    LG Chem Ltd. is one of the world’s largest producers of advanced chemicals and materials in the world and a leading supplier of lithium-ion batteries. The $12 billion, Korea-based company employs 8,500 people worldwide and comprises three primary businesses: chemicals and polymers, industrial materials, and information and electronic materials. Lithium-ion batteries are part of LG Chem’s Information and Electronic Materials business and have been identified as a primary growth area for the company. In fact, investment in lithium-ion batteries has grown five-fold over the past seven years. CPI (Compact Power, INC) the a North American subsidiary of LG Chem located in Troy, Mich.

       

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  5. Statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1Statik     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 8:14 am

    Would you say you are very confident in being able to make the Volts battery packs workable, safe, and in large quantities by 2010?

    Large quantities in terms of the quantities GM is asking for. Yes. We are all very much behind that goal. We don’t see anything that is a show-stopper, absolutely.

    Does this strike anyone as a ’sorta’ answer. Like the answer doesn’t answer Lyle’s question, it implies it does, but what it really says is: “We are filling whatever GM wants us to, when GM wants us too…but that may not be what you think?”

    Just feels like hedging in their to me. I wonder if either of these companies actually have a firm offer in their hands…let alone ramping to produce. If they don’t have a deal there is no way either of them are ramping to produce any quantity, they would just keep telling GM, ‘no problem producing, please give us the order’

    I dunno, maybe I’m just paranoid.

    /easter in 10 days  

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  6. Eric
    Vote -1 Vote +1Eric     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 8:33 am

    #5 Statik,

    My impression from that comment in the interview was that Continental might not necessarily view 10-30k of packs as large scale production.  That’s likely a tenth or less of what they would truly consider as large scale production.  

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  7. b456
    Vote -1 Vote +1b456     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 8:40 am

    Too bad he didn’t ask about state of charge management on the modules for phosphate based cells. From M. Verbrugge talk in AABC last year, the flat voltage curve was quite challenging for electronics.  

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  8. Statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1Statik     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 9:06 am

    Lyle, maybe this should be a new thread on it’s own…it’s ain’t pretty:

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/volt-birth-watch-37-severely-limited-launch-in-2010/

    Limited 5-10 city release…and just to make us feel good, gives us the ‘uh oh, maybe not so much 2010′

    “We’re not going to sell it in every city and we’re not going to sell it though every Chevrolet dealership,” Burns (Vice President of R&D and Planning) said. “It just doesn’t make sense to do that yet. You’d have to set up the service parts in all of those dealerships and train all of those dealers to service the vehicles. We might concentrate it in five or ten cities and say that is where we want to start.  

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  9. b456
    Vote -1 Vote +1b456     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    Not a word about state of charge management for phosphate based modules? From M. Verbrugge talk at AABC last year, flat voltage curves were quite challenging to play with for electronics…  

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  10. thomdbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1thomdbhomb     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    #5 Statik, I think your paranoia results from healthy skepticism. But, let me paraphrase what was actually posted,

    Question:"[Can]…you……make the Volts battery packs workable, safe, and in large quantities by 2010?Answer:
    "…Yes…We don’t see anything that is a show-stopper, absolutely."

    I don’t get a "sorta" out of that. They seem like a confident contractor that has a realistic assessment of their capabilities.  

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  11. Grizzly
    Vote -1 Vote +1Grizzly     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:02 am

    The interesting thing is that he said that only about 20-25% of Conti’s business is tires anymore with the rest being electronics.  Add to that fact that this is ground breaking technology and WRT BEV packs like these, no company has that much experience.

    These power supplies are going to be huge business, and Conti knows it.  With the Siemens VDO acquisition, Conti is now positioned as the 5th largest OEM  supplier in the world.    Not a bad company to be partnered with IMHO.

       

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  12. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:20 am

    #7 Statik:

    Actually, it makes sense to me.  Car companies have always allocated high demand – short supply cars according to some sort of formula they dream up.  10,000 cars is what, 2 per dealer nation wide?  As production ramps up, they can expand the number of dealers.

    Plus, GM is making no secret of the fact that they want to reduce the number of dealers, so why go through an expensive training and parts/service support effort at dealerships they would prefer to disappear?

    Maybe they will give some sort of first look to loyal GMVolt.com bloggers on the waiting list.  I’m not holding my breath, but maybe.  We may have to travel a ways to get our Volts serviced (God forbid), but it’s all part of the fun of being an early adopter. 

    Wait ’til we buy one of the first ones and then the technology takes a mighty leap 3 or 4 years later.  Kind of like the first/second generation Prius.   

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  13. Jean-Charles Jacquemin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jean-Charles Jacquemin     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    And Thanks Nasaman #4 for the LG Chem story.  

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  14. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:24 am

    I think the orders will be placed after the testing is done in the mules.  To do anything else, just based on bench testing would not be a sound business decision.

    And what I got from the interview was that at this point they could not deliver in the quantities that will be required by GM, but when the purchase order is received, they will gear up and be ready.  Again, sound business decisions.  

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  15. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    And as far as that link to another blog site about the limited introduction of the Volt, my question would be:

    How many people at GM are going to get to claim that they are "in charge of bringing Chevrolet’s gas – electric hybrid Volt to market"?

    Larry Burns has the official title of "Vice President of R&D and Planning".  So what does that have to do with where the Volt will be released, and in what quantities?

    I think that there are too many people that are too impressed by their own titles, and just blowing smoke.  When I see the final pictures, specs, warranty, pricing, and production schedules printed and handed out by Mr. Waggoner, then I will say it is "official"….  

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  16. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:42 am

    I’m pretty sure Detroit will be one of the 5-10 cities (if that is the way it will roll out), so I will put up with a 4 hour trip for ’service’ (as I hit up Comerica Park several times a year–including a March 31st Tiger’s home opener this year–yuck).

    …but it might give some explaination as to why you can put down any money or get on a waiting list.  It would be a logistical nightmare for them.  

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  17. Jeff M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff M     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:45 am

    Lyle, the cells in the cutaway pack you have above are cylindrical.  Isn’t at least one of the two suppliers of the prototype packs supposed to be making stacked flat (or rectangular) cells?  I may just be confusing it with some non-Volt application.

    Statik, I don’t think it’s anything new that 2010 wasn’t going to be seeing ramped up production of the Volt.  Even when they were telling us 60,000 units the 1st production year, they were telling us only that they hoped to see the 1st ones roll off the production line in very late 2010.  Since GM now says maybe only 10,000 units the 1st year even if we saw some in late 2010 that would mean very few.

    It’s also no surprise (and we may have already hear it?) that it could be 
    a phased roll out at the dealerships.  I sure hope GM doesn’t screw it up show how and that the Volt’s need any servicing (they did screw up with the original EV-1’s by using those Delco lead acid battery packs but after those were upgraded with the Cobasys NiMH I don’t recall hearing about any problems), but it is a safe approach to make sure that they roll them out so that if any servicing is needed, their techs are trained and ready.  I think the biggest thing is to make sure the techs don’t electrocute themselves!  

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  18. Jeff M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff M     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:55 am

    statik, being a 4 hour drive from the closest dealership that can sell/service a Volt may not be good enough.  That would be quite an expensive tow to get your Volt back to the dealership! And I doubt such a tow would be covered by GM!  I wouldn’t be surprised if they have residency requirements for the early adopters.  I think Tesla also had/has something like that because of the same situation.  If an EV has a failure, you are likely stuck where it sits.  At least an internal combustion engine vehicle, probably 10 times as complex so much more likely to have a failure,i
    it’s likey to fail and still be able to operate in what they call a "limp home mode".  I’m guessing an EV failure, while far less likely, would leave the vehicle completely undrivable.  

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  19. Will
    Vote -1 Vote +1Will     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    You know, Toyota didn’t roll out the first iteration of the Prius nationwide.  Those hit California first.  I lived in Pensacola FL at the time, and didn’t see a single Prius for about 5 years after they were first sold in Cali.  This is just what the auto industry does when they release revolutionary cars.  To make a simulataneous nationwide rollout they’d have to manufacture over 100,000 of them, and then what happens when they don’t sell?  Or worse, don’t perform well?  GM is doing everything they should as a car company.  They have to make sure people will buy the volt before they do a nationwide rollout.

    I, however, sincerely hope that Atlanta is on the list of initial cities, because that’s only about two hours away from me, and I will certainly be jumping through hoops to get this car if I have to.  

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  20. Grizzly
    Vote -1 Vote +1Grizzly     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    If they make the 2010 target, it does appear it’ll be a planned release for the reasons mentioned.   If it’s in phases over the next few years, many of us could be looking at 2012 or 2013– if we’re lucky, and depending on where we live.   By that time gas will be $4-5 a gallon, and I sure hope they respect the unofficial waiting list,  because if it’s first come first serve,I can see people setting up tents outside the dealerships.   

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  21. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:20 am

    I’m hoping they won’t do the math on how far away I live. Not like it is a big deal to fake a address close, but it is a hoop I’d rather not have to jump through.

    If it is a phased rolled out, so if this quote from a GM VP is indeed the ‘official plan,’ I think it will cause a stir with some expectations.  

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  22. Eric E
    Vote -1 Vote +1Eric E     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    I understand the typical procedure for rolling out a new vehicle but the Taurus wasn’t rolled out slowly and it was a completely new design…it went to market with a bang.  If this is GM’s "moon shot" then they better make it all the way to the moon…      Its not like they haven’t built an electric car before.

    By 2010 GM won’t be the only player in the EV market.  If I can’t get one of the first Volts then I’m buying something else…with or without a range extender.  By 2010 I’ll REALLY be tired of waiting.  

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  23. greg woulf
    Vote -1 Vote +1greg woulf     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    Eric E, that’s almost ridiculous, no offense intended. GM is building a breaking edge car within the standard new car development period. The Taurus didn’t require entirely new components, test equipment and mechanic training the way the Volt will either, and still went through the standard production development cycle.

    If you think another car company will be building an EV even comparable to the Volt in 2010 then I’d say go for it. I can tell you now you’ll be disappointed. The car you get might be similar, but it won’t have a 10 yr battery life, or the performance that GM will get from their motor and control system.

    It’s almost certain that Toyota will have a PHEV, but it will be a parallel car with less battery life and a lower pure electric range after the first 6 months.  

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  24. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    I am with Eric E #20 on this one.  If, after being a very vocal, and long term supporter of this project, if I do not have an opportunity to buy a first release Volt, because I happen to live in Youngstown Ohio and not New York or Los Angeles, I will not be happy about it…..  And I support local businesses, like they support me, so I have no intention of driving hundreds of miles to buy a car, when there are ten Chevy dealers within 30 miles of where I am sitting right now.

    GM has 30+ months to get their dealerships and service techs ready.    I suggest they get started!  

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  25. Jeff M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff M     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    greg, actually there will be even better series hybrids like the Volt being produced by the time the Volt comes out… the problem is that they will cost more than the Volt, and won’t be made even in the scaled back 10,000 units/year level that GM plans to make.

    The Fisker is currently getting up to 100 pre-orders/week, may be out in late 2009, get’s 50 miles on a charge before the generator kicks on, 0-60mph in 6 seconds, top speed 125mph, batteries are supposed to last at least 10 years, etc… but it is $80,000…. twice the price of the Volt.  

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  26. Jeff M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff M     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    Opps, forgot the link for the Fisker http://tinyurl.com/yq33pt  

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  27. Jeff J
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff J     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    statik , I think GM is right about the  away they are going about the launch of the Volt , As a ASE tech with 12years under my belt I would not touch this car with a ten foot pole , as JeffM pointed out this car can kill you if you were to cross or probe the wrong wire, I can just imagine someone pulling into a local Tire store for a tune-up or any problem for that matter & that mim-wage tire changer poking around that 16kilowatt engine for the first and last time and the owner looking down at the chard remains of is faithful yet dimwitted employee . The reason I say this everyday one of the many so called auto techs working at a quick lube or tire shop calls us for help , shop owners seam to think anybody can do diagnostic work . And one more bit of bad news Unless this car is ordered from GM and pickup at the factory and by-pass the dealers ( highly unlikely ) there no way that you will pay the MSRP price of 35,000 K if you are lucky you will likely see a 10,000K dealership screwing until the production is ramped up & the other company’s start flooding the market. . To back up this opinion I picked one of the best 10 hybrid cars at random , the Ford Escape hybrid the MSRP for this suv is 26,670 couldn’t find a Escape anywhere around this area (three Ford Dealers) all out with no date or promise on delivery . So I have gone the e-bay and the asking price is 35,000 for every Escape listed . Now it would appear that in this down ecom-market that Greenwood Ford would have 20 of these SUV available for sale and the salesman I spoke to said that they have told Corp. HQ to send a many as possible and still as of today not one Escape is sitting on their lot. Can you image the rush of people as the volt gets hyped as a car that 85% of the people almost never have to pay for GAS !!! Folks its going to get CRAZY just like the ladies at Wall-mart the day after Thanksgiving .LOLAS always just MO.  

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  28. Jeff J
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff J     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    Sorry for the off subect rant!!  

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  29. Jean-Charles Jacquemin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jean-Charles Jacquemin     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    Found a post dated march 12th , it may be that Exxon-Mobil become a major player in the big game of battery market we see developing every day,  see :http://www.motorauthority.com/news/news/oil-company-helping-to-develop-electric-cars/One excerpt from the source :"One of the first cars equipped with the Exxon Mobil-improved batteries is the new Electrovaya Maya-300 electric vehicle. The car has a range of about 120 miles and is set to go on sale by the middle of the year. An inside source has revealed to the Wall Street Journal that Exxon Mobil has plans to build a new $300 million plant in South Korea to manufacture the film as well as hire 14 scientists Japan, New Jersey and Texas to improve the technology further. Eventually, it wants to supply the component to carmakers like Toyota, Ford and GM and is estimating that the market for the film could be more than $1 billion within the next ten years."What do you think ?
    <!– if (!document.phpAds_used) document.phpAds_used = ‘,’; phpAds_random = new String (Math.random()); phpAds_random = phpAds_random.substring(2,11); document.write (”"); //–> var federated_media_section = ”;   

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  30. Jean-Charles Jacquemin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jean-Charles Jacquemin     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    Ooops it seems my previous post had some problems, sorry

    JC  

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  31. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 8:18 pm

    >> You know, Toyota didn’t roll out the first iteration of the Prius nationwide.  Those hit California first.  I lived in Pensacola FL at the time, and didn’t see a single Prius for about 5 years after they were first sold in Cali. 

    No, nationwide availability was immediate.

    I got mine in Minnesota on 9/9/00.  

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  32. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    >> It’s almost certain that Toyota will have a PHEV, but it will be a parallel car with less battery life and a lower pure electric range after the first 6 months.

    No plug-in configuration will allow discharging beyond the long-life threshold, so that claim is pointless.  

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  33. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

    GM may end up with the best of all problems: a great car and a greater demand. It’s going  to take the wisdom of Solomon to not end up pi$$ing off substantial numbers of potential customers (myself included). A month ago, I wasn’t nearly as apprehensive as I am tonight.
    I’m hoping that the folks at the Javitz Center are candid, and don’t try a Dog and Pony show. In any case, I think I’ll know more on the ride home from NYC on the 19th.
    Like they say on the local news: Film at 11…..  

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  34. Ron
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ron     Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:07 pm

    If my Volt required a 4-hour tow trip for repairs, I’d have no problem winching it onto my trailer, buying $120 worth of diesel fuel, and setting out on a road trip. I’d MUCH rather not have to, but I would if that’s what it takes!  

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  35. Storm Connors
    Vote -1 Vote +1Storm Connors     Says:
    March 15th, 2008 at 12:11 am

    This affair has all the earmarks of not turning out well. GM would have been smarter, in my opinion, to have produced an electric car- or a series hybrid- by adapting the drive to an existing car. (Much as they will do to create the mules.) Then they could undertake an iterative refinement with subsequent models. They would have learned the electric car business and  customer needs without playing "you bet your company" and would have had income to support the development.

    The Toyota Rav 4 electrics were developed on a shoestring and they are still pleasing their owners.

    There are going to be a lot of disappointed people before this affair is over. 2015 would be a fair bet for when the folks who are ready to buy a Volt now will actually be able to get one; and this is assuming that the initial 2010 date is met, which is unlikely.  

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