An Analysis of the Toyota PHEV versus the Chevy Volt
For a while, GM and Toyota have publicly argued that each PHEV architecture is superior over the other, comparing the Volt (an E-REV) to the prototype Toyota PHEV, basically a Prius with a 10 mile range battery in the trunk.
Ron Grebman of CalCars wrote a terrific analysis whether GM or Toyota is correct in asserting that their PHEV architecture is superior.
He starts off noting that the most important benefit of a PHEV is its ability to displace liquid fuel consumption by power from the grid.
Thus he argues, the core argument in determining which vehicle is superior is to measure how much fuel is displaced in normal driving.
Charge depleting mode is explained as occurring when the car is driving electric only and blended mode is when both battery and fuel are used. Charge sustaining mode occurs in the Volt only when the battery reaches its target depth of discharge, but in the Toyota-type parallel hybrid it is at all times. Degree of blending varies by how fast a parallel hybrid is allowed to drive on electric only, this is called a “utility factor”. In the case of the Toyota that’s 62 mph, for the Volt 100 mph (max).
He tells us interestingly that a gallon of gas holds 33 kwh of heat energy, and considering hybrid efficiency of 30%, 10 kWH of battery power represents roughly one gallon of gas, and costs $1.00.
Grebman notes the core argument between GM and Toyota is that GM says the Volt can drive 40 miles on all official driving cycles in pure-EV, and that only a car that does so could obtain maximum PHEV benefit.
Toyota admits that the prototype PHEVs remain blended (parallel) but argue that the cost will be less, because of battery smaller size, they also argue that the ratio of fuel displacement to battery size is greater than in the Volt.
He compares the Volt and Toyota PHEV in a table, telling us the latter has a 5.2 kWH NiMh pack with 4 kWh usable power, and demonstrates that fuel is consumed in it at all driving distances.
My take on the conclusion is basically that the E-REV (Volt) is best because it can displace more petroleum overall as well as reduce greenhouse gas and tailpipe emissions. In the current market, the Toyota-model PHEV gives a cost benefit because of the less expensive battery and control electronics. This advantage could be eliminated if fuel costs continue to ride.
Once battery prices drop, or fuel prices continue to rise, both of which are likely to happen, pure EVs will become the standard.
Source (GreenCarCongress)
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54 Responses to “An Analysis of the Toyota PHEV versus the Chevy Volt”
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March 9th, 2008 at 12:40 am
Yes Lyle, this was a very interesting article. As I see it Toyota is going for maximum fuel efficiency at the lowest cost. GM is going for maximum freedom and fuel efficiency. Personally, I still prefer the Volt as I see oil lines in our near future.
At the end of the day there is room for both vehicles.
March 9th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Lyle:
I think you missed the most important conclusion in the article:
"Since each type of PHEV has its own advantages, disadvantages, costs, and optimum driving regimes, our expectation is that during the first few years—maybe a decade—of PHEV production, all types of PHEVs will compete well in the marketplace. Then, eventually—as batteries become a cheaper, longer-life, commodity item, liquid fuels become more dear, renewable electricity generation proliferates, and CO2 emissions are increasingly targeted—the PHEVs with the most EV power and range will come to dominate."
Geez - did they pay this guy to write what we have been saying here for over a year now???
:)
March 9th, 2008 at 12:54 am
He also left out that the Volt will substantially outperform the Prius. I can’t imaging anyone who test drives both wouldn’t appreciate this.
March 9th, 2008 at 3:01 am
"Once battery prices drop, or fuel prices continue to rise, both of which are likely to happen, pure EVs will become the standard."
- Exactly, and fuel prices don’t even need to rise. Imagine if battery technology had a 100 year evolution being worked on at the scale of millions of people throughout the world, like ICE cars/engines are. All that has to happen for EV’s to become the standard is time has to march along.
March 9th, 2008 at 3:31 am
I also agree that both approaches fulfill different needs in the marketplace. The New Prius will be cheaper and the initial production numbers are a lot higher. The Volt will be better at displacing the use of oil but at a higher cost. I’m going for the pure series hybrid type (Volt) because of the potential of the platform is greater (you can switch out the range extender very easily as there is no complicated mechanical connection, etc.) Toyota is going to sell a butt load of hybrids and I think that is great. GM will be starting a bit slower but their technology is fantastic and has huge potential. I’m happy that both are going to be on the market and competing. Makes me all warm inside just thinking about it.
March 9th, 2008 at 6:15 am
A few points I think are worth mentioning.
1. The Volt will be cheaper to drive (not buy) than the prius. Anyone that argues that is not dealing with reality very well.
2. The volt will be more mechanically dependable.
3. And unfortunately the volt will be more expensive initially. This could change but certainly not for a few years. I wouldn’t expect that until there is widespread range of extended electric vehicles on the market and then things will even out for the most part on cost.
March 9th, 2008 at 6:28 am
First, I like this reply to the article:
"technical superiority is a fairly unimportant aspect of either of these cars. 99% of buyers will just want to feel good about what they drive. for this reason alone, the Volt is the superior concept: it is easier to explain to Hollywood stars and retiring hippies. it runs on batteries until the batteries are low, then the generator turns on and you can drive as far as you want. try explaining how the Prius works in one sentence."
All I can say is, there must be a great deal of discontent in ToyotaLand right now.
March 9th, 2008 at 6:54 am
The Volt is the way to go and I don’t have any doubts about it. Imagine being able to go to work on a daily basis w/o using any gas? I think that is awesome! Plus the fact that batteries can only get better and maybe not long in the future, it will do 300 miles w/o needing a charge. Then, the engine could be eliminated and that would created a big cost savings. Go GM go!!!!!
March 9th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Yes, the article supports much of what has been posted here:
(1) A "gallon" of electrical power (being able to propel the vehicle as far as a gallon of gas in light of the differing efficiencies) costs about $1.00.
(2) The Prius HSD is optimized to derive power from a relatively small, low power non-lithium battery.
(3) The Volt design goal is to be optimized to utilize a larger lithium ion battery.
(4) A Prius with a large enough battery to have a significant AER would perform very similarly to the Volt, displacing petrol when in EV mode, and getting around 50 MPG when the ICE is in operation.
(5) However, if you compare a Prius with an AER of 7 miles with a 32 AER Volt, the clear winner is the Volt. Go Volt!
March 9th, 2008 at 8:47 am
Engineering achievement is great. Volt will earn awards & praise. But don’t make the mistake of forgetting purpose and the time available.
Change comes from sales, since quantity on the road is a major factor in determining the amount of oil still being consumed.
It’s not the individual vehicle, it’s the fleet as a whole.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:55 am
I find it mildly amusing that anyone can claim the Volt to be the winner as it is still years away from becoming a reality and no one knows how well it will perform.
March 9th, 2008 at 9:10 am
The plug-in Prius is a good lower cost option than the Volt for someone that has a 5 mile commute (or 10 mile with the ability to charge at work). The overall effect is the more people will be able to afford the technology to use no gas on their daily commute. I welcome this vehicle along with the BlueHybrid Mercedes and all the others that will help us reduce our consumption of oil and reduce pollution on our planet.
March 9th, 2008 at 10:38 am
I like the article. Clearly alot of work has gone into it…not just someone sitting down for 15 minutes and pumping out some rehashed bit of trite.
As I have said before I really don’t think it has to be a comparison at all. In my mind yes these are both green cars, but in completely different classes. I hope they both do well and spawn alot more innovation and acceptance.
The most interesting thing (at least for me) that we will see over the next few months, and that isn’t really expressed in the article is the amount of follow through.
Will the Volt really get 40 miles on EV and will you really be able to write a check and own one outright for 35k?
Will the Prius really hit the fabled 100mpg and be 25K, will it still look like a nerd’s shoe?
Of course how many deadlines/timelines will be missed on the route to getting their by both companies? It will be interesting to look at the hype now and compare it to the actual marketplace place in 2010-2011
March 9th, 2008 at 10:40 am
100% BEV’s simply do NOT work in cold weather. You will always have to have a cold weather range extender, to move you along when the batteries won’t hold a significant charge. I predict that eventually, cold climate vehicles will have a hydrogen ICE of some sort.
March 9th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Personally, I just like the elegance of the series hybrid design concept in terms of simplicity and modularity. Once you have a base platform you have so much freedom to relatively easily create a variety of vehicles with different battery capacity, generator sizes and types, and motor sizes (not to mention all manner of other electrical gizmos).
That being said, the fact that no production vehicle with this design exists means that it’s only elegant on paper. It will be interesting to see how well the dream can be translated into reality with the battery technology available.
March 9th, 2008 at 11:32 am
I am a Volt fan and my last 4 cars were made by GM but by the time the Volt is available the Prius will have over 40 miles of electric range . I ‘ guessing OEMtek modifications being sold now will help speed up the implimentation by Toyota .
March 9th, 2008 at 11:35 am
When oil hits 200 a barrel and I need to go to work, I’d rather have a volt in my garage, thank you very much.
March 9th, 2008 at 11:40 am
I can’t take anything GM announces seriously. The Prius has been in production for 10 years. What did GM have to show after years of PNGV: GM’s answer to fuel-economy was Andy Card.
March 9th, 2008 at 11:53 am
==100% BEV’s simply do NOT work in cold weather==
Is -58°F cold enough for ya?
http://greyfalcon.net/quickcharge3.png
Probably get even colder than that with even minor insulation.
The Volt isn’t specifically using this battery, they are using one from a competing brand, A123 Systems, but it gets similar specs.
==On topic==
Pretty much,
Parallel works best for smaller battery packs
Series works best for larger battery packs (Where the rest of the car’s motive parts are deadweight when driving electric)
Series will most likely ultimately win, largely not because of performance, but because of sticker price and maintenance.
As mentioned by Martin Eberhard in a taped interview, an electric car contains about 10x less parts than a conventional gasoline car. As such thats dramatically less purchase cost, weight, and maintenance to deal with.
http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=70885
==Criticisms of the Volt==
My only criticism so far is the release date.
2011 seems like a long time off in technology terms.
We’ll practically be electing our NEXT president by then.
http://greyfalcon.net/volt
March 9th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Not to mention, if gas is hard to get or unavailable, you’d still be able to drive to and from work with the Volt.
March 9th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
David Ahlport,
The article you posted did not state how much the performance of those batteries was degraded at that temperature. You aren’t going to get the 40 miles, or 200 - 300 in a pure BEV, at those temps.
March 9th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
This debate, Volt v Prius, does not seem of much consequence because both technology should find useful application and eventually become the standard motor vehicles.
Should the debat be narrowed to PHEV v ICE+mechanical transmission, and broadened to include crucial advantages only PHEV offers?
Every household with a PHEV gains the means to survive an emergency grid failure. They gain the means to closely monitor household electricity consumption, improving energy conservation there.
Rooftop photovoltiac solar panels are a technological perfect match with the PHEV means to store solar-generated electricity. Such decentralized power generation, even at a minimal level and only supplementary to a utility grid, improves the grids and empowers the individual electricity consumer, leading to greater public control over private utilities and encourages public/private partnerships.
Perhaps most important and worthy of separate debate, PHEVs affect land-use and development whereby cities and suburbs gain economic incentives to direct future growth around incorporating alternative means of travel - walking, bicycling and mass transit, all more energy efficient than EVs, and indispensable for the creation of local economies and sustainable urban environments. The greater vision of the future is better cities, not better cars.
March 9th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Lyle, do you know if GM is considering or looking into the possibility of Zinc Air at all? I know in another thread people brought up that Li-Ion doesn’t have the natural resources to be capable of fully replacing all vehicles with this technology. I then started looking into Zn-Air some more (I had many years ago) via the link they provided, and it sounds like Zn-Air has superior energy density, significant mineable reserves (in our own country), and much less cost per kWh.
The downside sounded like charge cycles, which used to be as little as 500 at 100% DOD. Given the nano-tech type enhancements being done to Li-Ion though, I wonder if the same kind of tech could be applied to Zn-Air to increase charge-discharge capabilities, making it feasible for electric cars.
Some interesting links: http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf
http://www.revolttechnology.com/
I’m really hoping to make it to Volt Nation so I can ask some of these questions personally.
March 9th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
#23 Eric , I took a quick look at zinc air and couldn’t get a feel for were they are at as far as product development if you have more info please share . We all have read countless articles on battery’s with X2 the power of Li-ion and not one of them have a product ready for market. I would agree that tech is moving fast and someday in the future Li-ion will be replace with the next super cap or zinc-air , or virus battery but IMO these batteries are are years away. As to the bigger question GM vs Toyota , The world is a big place and two different schools of thought can’t be a bad thing. Toyota has fired the first shot good for them , GM is taking a different path , and I for one like the way they are thinking . If GM can pull the Volt off, it will change the way my family lives forever. I would be able to eliminate gas & gas stations out of my life 95% of the time and If e85 ever comes to town I could reduce that to 99.5% of fossil fuels. Can anybody say the same for Toyota approach ?
March 9th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
==The article you posted did not state how much the performance of those batteries was degraded at that temperature. You aren’t going to get the 40 miles, or 200 - 300 in a pure BEV, at those temps.==
Well in that same document I referenced it had this:
"NanoSafe batteries deliver power per unit weight and unit volume several times that of conventional lithium ion batteries. Altairnano laboratory measurements indicate power density as high as 4000 W/Kg and over 5000W/litre. By using nano-titanate materials as the negative electrode material, the formation of an SEI (Solid Electrolyte Interface) is eliminated. In addition, the nano-titanate particles are up to 100 times smaller than a typical graphite particle thereby greatly reducing the distance a lithium atom must travel to be released from the particle. These properties also mean that even at very cold temperatures, a nano-titanate battery will produce high power."
==Zinc-Air Fuel Cells==
Put it this way
Zinc-Air has half the energy density as Aluminum-Air
And Aluminum-Air, if you need 300 mile range, then you need 300 pounds of aluminum-galium alloy.
==Rooftop photovoltiac solar panels are a technological perfect match with the PHEV means to store solar-generated electricity.==
Not really. The cars charge at night, when they are home.
Actually the cars are a better fit for wind, which generally peaks at night, and is intermittent. When you have a 14 hour charging window, and 2-3 hours to charge it in, you can be rather flexible.
March 9th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
WRT the question of quantity of lithium reserves on the planet, A123 co-founder Ric Fulop states "there is enough lithium on the planet for ’several billion’ plug-in hybrids."
See full interview.
I am inclined to agree with him.
March 9th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Lyle,
lets not forget GE now.
GM can forget about toyota as a compeditor, GE will be entering soon.
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=17679
March 9th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
In several respects, comparisons involving extended range Evs
and PHEVs are useless (at least in terms of gasoline avoidance)
unless you have statistics concerning the distribution of trip
mileages.
The only auto trip statistics which I am aware of are those
collected by the DOT and recently published by GM. We know that
daily commuting accounts a large percentage of our gasoline
consumption - over 50% I believe. The average auto commutes 27
miles per day, 5 days a week, for a yearly total of over 7,000
miles. Use the DOT stats, do the simple math, and you’ll find that
a fleet of the 10 mile range plug-ins, for example the Saturn Vue
(assuming gas MPG of 30) and the Prius(assuming gas MPG of 40) will require 44 and 59 gallons of gasoline, respectively, for each 100
drivers for each day’s commute, while a VOLT fleet (assuming gas
MPG of 50) would require 9.44 gallons.
If half of the commuters had the opportunity to recharge at work
(even though over half of the VOLT drivers would have no need to),
we calculate the daily gas numbers to be 37, 46, and 4.7 gallons for
each 100 Prius, Saturn or VOLT drivers. Here the VOLT is using 8 times less gasoline than the Prius, and 10 times less gasoline than the Saturn Vue plug-in.
Each 100 typical U.S. commuters currently uses 159 gallons
for their daily commute and averages 17 MPG.
The obtained MPGs for norecharge-at-work/recharge are :
Prius : 61MPG / 72MPG;
Saturn : 45MPG / 58MPG;
VOLT : 286MPG / 569MPG.
March 9th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
As I’m sure many of you know, an American named Edward Deming (who embraced much of the philosophy of the early US space program under von Braun) believed that it wasn’t so important exactly WHAT you did but HOW WELL you did it. Detroit (& Europe) largely ignored his advice after WWII, whereas Japanese automakers, especially Toyota, essentially adopted it as a mandate. This serious error in judgement by US (& European) automakers has persisted for over 50 years, during which Toyota’s reliability has been MUCH higher than Detroit’s or Europe’s (and it’s also allowed the Japanese to keep their costs down while staying profitable).
So one of my key questions to GM in NYC will be, "Has GM done an FMEA on the Volt design and all of its components to be certain the number of SPFs are minimized?"*
One of the advantages of both the Prius & the Volt architecture is that they incorporate redundant power sources, an ICE and a battery. This means that, if the designs are carefully done, having a Prius or a Volt break down miles from home should become MUCH less common than today. The most recent repair data from Consumer Reports strongly suggests the Prius was designed following Deming’s principles. (Sadly, Detroit’s & Europe’s newest cars are STILL generally a lot more failure-prone than Toyota’s, even after all these years!)**
GM won’t like this question, I’m sure, but the Volt design is a "clean sheet of paper" ….and it’s high time they get it right!
*FMEA = Failure Mode & Effects Analysis; SPFs = Single Point Failures
**Consumer Report’s 2008 Annual Automobile issue says, "Toyota’s previously sterling reliability record has slipped a bit ….but despite their (recent) problems, the automaker still ranks third overall in reliability, behind only Honda and Subaru, with 11 of Toyota’s models in the best list. U.S. makes, however, account for almost half the models—25 of 44—on the Least Reliable list, 13 of which are from GM." The current Prius is 80% more reliable than the average car/truck/SUV sold in the US —only the humble Toyota Yaris ranks somewhat higher!
March 9th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
PS: I’m told Deming’s photo is in the lobby of Toyota’s headquarters, and is larger than the photo of the company’s founder Toyoda Sakichi.
March 9th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
What I think most of you are missing is that Toyota has been building a great hybrid for the last 10 years and is MAKING MONEY at it. It’s stupid to write off anything they say as they are currently the 800lb gorilla. That said would I rather have an EREV than a PHEV? of course! would I be willing to pay 10K more for it? that one’s a little harder… I own an 04 Prius and I have to say it’s a great car.
I think it’s great that the two big OEMs are taking competing positions in the market and the consumer can only benefit, let’s see who ends up on top, personally I’m not ready to bet on a winner.
On another note series and parallel are not mutually exclusive as the genset can be linked to the drivetrain at higher speeds with a clutch, I understand that BYD uses this approach from comments on GCC, this allows the ICE and generator to contribute to acceleration as well as making driving in hybrid mode more efficient. I also agree that both systems are only a step on the way to a combustion free future, either long range quick charge EVs or some kind of fuel cell range extender to replace the genset(though not necessarily hydrogen).
March 9th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Uhm.
EREV and PHEV are the same thing really.
Or I guess you could say an EREV is a subset of PHEVs.
March 9th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
As soon as the Volt makes an impact on the EV market, Toyota will have one that is series not far behind. Also many others.
March 9th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Please let me qualify this contribution by saying that if you want to dismiss me as some sort of egomaniac, tooting his own horn, please do so and stop right now. For those with an open mind, read on.
Google; William Lucas Jones Hybrid, to get an idea of what I have been proposing for several years. I have done a good bit more thinking about what a vehicle should consist of since then but the basic power system remains about the same.
Automotive structure will have to go to a much lighter composition. Currently Carbon fiber is near the top, but there is a lot more than that available. Nobody seems to be talking much about Boron for instance. Structures where the voids are filled with energy absorbing materials like EPP will significantly reduce weight while improving safety.
Back to power; There certainly is no need to use an inefficient mechanical transmission in a modern vehicle. A simple copper wire is all that is needed. The wire goes from the battery to the motors via a controller and pushing on an accelerator or letting off is all that is needed.
Currently it seems that Lithium-Ion is the best power storage medium to use. When possible, charge them from the grid and recharge them with an internal gen-set when grid charging is not possible.
There exists a number of good gen-sets right now. My suggestion is for a simple and highly efficient design consisting of an air-cooled diesel, two-cycle, two cylinder opposed engine. The shaft is also the generators main shaft and the engine is run at it;s most efficient speed.
So what does all of this have to do with a comparison between the Volt and Prius?
Nothing really. They are both obsolete.
March 9th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
It’s true that a "gallon" of electricity only costs about $1.00 compared to the most efficient hybrids but in reality the savings is greater for the majority of cars and trucks that most people drive.
I’m lucky if I get 26 mpg in my 4 cyl car, 18 mpg in my truck, (less when towing).
So an electric car that is getting the equivalent of 40-50 mpg is saving a lot of petroleum.
March 9th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
If there is more room in the trunk of the plug in Prius 10, I wonder how long until the aftermarket takes advantage of that?
March 9th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
It might have been just as accurate for the headline of the article to be: GM vs. Itself (not Toyota)
Why? Because GM is also developing the Saturn Vue PHEV. Its battery will be smaller, offering less EV-equivalent range (like the purported Prius PHEV). So, if a small battery pack and 10 mile equivalent EV range is determined to be the right solution for consumers, GM will sell the Saturn Vue PHEV. If 40 mile equivalent EV range is the right solution, GM will sell the Chevy Volt. Either way, GM has an offering that (hopefully) will appeal to that consumer. By building a portfolio of products, GM is covering its bases and giving itself the best possible chance of success.
The media loves to build conflict, especially between rivals (GM vs. Toyota, US vs. Japan, HEV vs. PHEV, etc.) but the reality is more complicated.
March 9th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
David Ahlport #32 Uhm.
EREV and PHEV are the same thing really. Or I guess you could say an EREV is a subset of PHEVs. *** **** ***
No they are not. The Volt and EREV are not any more hybrids than the RE-less EV-1 was. Regardless of who has called EREV a hybrid, or PHEV in the past (including GM) they were and are incorrect.
The only series hybrids are the latest versions of the Prius. I’m told that there is a soft hand off of the electric motor to the ICE rather than an rpm range share. That makes these vehicles series hybrids. Series because both share in propelling the vehicle, but one hands off to the other at a shift point rather than overlapping for a range of RPM. In EREV, the ICE does not propel the vehicle at all.
The VOLT is *NOT* a hybrid.
March 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Glad to see there’s a little healthy competition in this industry, contrary to the status quo.
March 9th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Grizzly ,Scream it from the mountain top brother!!!! I love the fact that everybody on this thread is very respectfull, but sometimes I have to back away from the computer and guzzle a cold one. If we ever have a chance to sit across a table the first one is on me !!! Its been fun reading everybody’s posts.
March 9th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
#29 nasaman, again your post flew right over my head , keep it coming someday yu’l learn me .
March 9th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
The Prius plug-in may have a cheaper up front cost, but for those who can afford the higher up front cost of the Volt (plug-in) or other series designs (vs. Prius’s parallel design), one really needs to also look at the total cost of ownership.
The Prius will not only cost more for fuel over it’s life, but also much more for maint., servicing, and repairs due to it’s complexity (number of moving parts and more) compared to a series design like the Volt. As long as GM doesn’t screw it up somehow (I can’t imagine they can), the Volt should have significantly lower operating costs. How much that shrinks the gap in price, or possibly even invert the gap, between the costs of the Prius (plug-in) vs. Volt only time will tell, but there is something else just as valuable that often isn’t factored into the price… the lessened need for servicing and repairs can be priceless in the time and hassle it places on the owner. Even if covered by some warrenty, it’s still a pain in the butt to have to take the car to the dealership!
March 9th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Grizzly, are you still on that kick that the Volt is NOT a hybrid? Even Lyle and GM admits it is… and from an engineer/technical point of view it is….
The distinction is that the Volt is a "series" design hybrid, meaning that it’s neither a pure battery electric vehicle (BEV), nor is it a pure gasoline-electric (no batteries) like a diesel-electric train, but a hybrid of the two.
For marketing reasons, because GM wants to distinguish it from the parallel hybrids out there, has used a marketing term "range extended EV". A rose by any other name is still a rose. Can’t blame GM for wanting to control their marketing, but they can’t change engineering.
I was going to point you once again to EV World’s 1998 test drive of what GM referred to as a series hybrid (which is the same design as the Volt) but Bill seems to have nuked or moved that page, instead see http://www.autoworld.com/news/GMC/Series_Hybrid.htm which has some of the same info. It’s a 4/5 seat EV-1 with a turbine engine as the "range extender" on a BEV.
Ford around CA ZEV time also called it the same thing because that’s what they are.
March 9th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
I’m not sure why that link didn’t work (Lyle’s newest forum software seems flaky)… try this short url instead:
http://tinyurl.com/2zkztx
March 9th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
<blockquote>He also left out that the Volt will substantially outperform the Prius. I can’t imaging anyone who test drives both wouldn’t appreciate this.</blockquote>
The ergonomics and feel of the Prius are set up to keep you from driving it aggressively. But if you whump on the gas pedal, it’ll go — even at 75mph. You can make a tailgater behind you get really small really fast, once the car that was blocking the left-lane going 5mph under the speed limit gets out of the way…
The Volt may end up being better(and I sure hope it will be!), but the Prius can beat my Ranger off the line - if the ignores all of the fuel-saving hints. Plus, there’s a Prius in my driveway whenever my girl comes to visit! I haven’t had any chance to drive a Volt yet…
March 9th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
I guess we’re not going beyond the Volt v Prius debate. That’s too bad. The severe impediment that cars present to other modes of travel is an actual Constitutional Inequity. Even hybrid cars are a "Transportation Monopoly," if we drive them as much as we drive standard drivetrain vehicles of today. What’s it take to disrupt this inconsequencial debate? Question: which car is better? Answer: the green one, of course. Now, I know why Monster Truck Shows like to paint their ‘victim cars’ green.
March 10th, 2008 at 12:15 am
A little bit on expectations. The next Generation Prius is expected in the spring of 2009. It is expected to get around 50 miles to the gallon vice the 45 the current version gets. It will not be a plug-in, and will not have a lithium battery.
But in 2010, a PHEV version of the Prius is expected, but only for fleet sales, not retail. Assuming this vehicle still only sports an AER of 7 miles, and will be available retail in 2011, then it can be compared to the 2011 Volt. And if the 2011 Plug in Prius has a large lithium battery, it will perform nearly as well as the Volt, according to the article.
In Real Estate, the three most import aspects are location, location and location. In evaluating Hybrids, no matter the marketing name, the three most important aspects are battery capacity, battery capacity and battery capacity.
March 10th, 2008 at 12:33 am
Yeah Grizzly, What Jeff M said. The Volt is a PHEV. It’s a hybrid. Get over it! Hybrid buses have just about the same design and have been around a long time.
please read up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle
March 10th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Jason (Writer of *14) is misinformed. EVs work fine in cold weather. I drive a lead acid ev. http://www.evalbum.com/1059 Range is reduced at lower temperatures, but heater works faster than the one in my ICE car.
March 10th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
#7 BillR:
Well said.
"99% of buyers will just want to feel good about what they drive" pretty well sums it up for me.
If the Prius was a Chevy, we would have been driving one for several years. When we bought our Impala SS in 1995, it was because it was a very cool car, and made a statement about what GM could still do if it would blast itself out of its rut. We have been patiently (or maybe not so patiently!) waiting for GM to turn out something equal to or better than the Prius. When they do, we will jump on it like we did the Impala.
Oil spiked at $107/barrel this morning. To once again quote Lucky Jack Aubery:
"There is not a moment to be lost."
March 10th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
#26 Lyle…
Thanks for the response to my Zinc-Air inquiry.
I don’t question the reserves available, but am more concerned about the geopolitical environment if all of those foreign reserves were exploited.
I’ll have to read the news article you referenced. If you looked at the evworld PDF, you’ll see that many of the reserves are overseas and potentially not useable.
March 11th, 2008 at 3:54 am
Just look at the figure at the top of this thread. Which would you rather drive? That being said, I don’t even mind the looks of the prius and enjoyed driving the one I rented a few months ago very much.
If done properly, the volt will be GM’s version of hitting a grand slam homer in the bottom of the 9th for the comeback victory!
March 11th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Personally, neither is ideal for Europe (and with gas at $10 per gallon, Europe should be the target market)
GM wants something for Europe: Take a small car like the excellent Corsa, replace the 4 wheels with 15-20 KW hub motors. Replace the engine with a 500cc range extender and batteries with a deliverable charge of 6KWhrs, and an output of 40-60KW (for a total of 60-80KW with engine running).
Then you’ve got a not too expensive, 2nd car run around. There are lots of second cars which hardly ever do more than 20 miles in a day.
The Volt is closer to this, but its too big and expensive to make it a second car, and too small and expensive to be a family car.
April 6th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Heck, take a small car.. replace the TWO front wheels with 30kw hub motors.. 500cc range extender genset optional and battery capacity optional..keep it simple and cheap. Also a chance for dealers to make more money on options
It would be nice if the range extender could be removed from the car in 30 minutes with just hand tools and some upper body strength. Can you imagine just dropping off your genset at the dealership for a tuneup?.. then pick it up a couple of days later. The 50kw genset in the volt will be too big/heavy for this.
It would also be nice if you could buy an optional inverter to power your house from the car in emergencies..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
GM wants something for Europe: Take a small car like the excellent Corsa, replace the 4 wheels with 15-20 KW hub motors. Replace the engine with a 500cc range extender and batteries with a deliverable charge of 6KWhrs, and an output of 40-60KW (for a total of 60-80KW with engine running).