Mercedes-Benz May be First to Put Lithium-ion Battery into a Mass Produced US Car: S400 BlueHybrid
Luxury carmaker Mercedes Benz announced yesterday that they are ready to go ahead with lithium-ion batteries for full scale production in 2009. This demonstrates that lithium-ion batteries are safe and ready for major automotive use, and can be built for the scale needed.
Mercedes has introduced the S400 BlueHybrid, which will be a parallel gas-electric (non-plug-in) hybrid that will go on sale in the U.S. in the third quarter of 2009. The 299 hp V-6 will get 29.7 mpg. Next up will be the S300 BlueHybrid with a 221 hp twin-turbo 4 cylinder expected to get an impressive 43.6 mpg.
Mercedes reports this will be the “first patented integration of a lithium-ion battery into a series-produced passenger car” and tells us the battery is 1.9 kw/L.
They also say “the engineers’ success is above all a result of the Daimler-developed integration of the lithium-ion battery into the vehicle’s climate control system. This ensures that the battery always works at optimal system temperatures of between 15 and 35°C, which in turn makes it possible for the battery to provide long service life and maximum performance”
The AP has reported that the lithium-ion battery pack is being made by none other than Continental . For those who aren’t keeping up, of course, Continental is one partner of one of the Volts pack making teams. Although not mentioned in the article, it wouldn’t surprise me if A123 might be making Mercedes cells. If that turns out to be true, then this is the same dynamic duo making packs for the Volt, making its development that much more likely and giving Conti one-up over LG Chem/CPI.
I will say this development makes the Volt’s outlook a lot brighter. Although pricing not announced, don’t expect the S400 for 35K.
Source (AP)
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39 Responses to “Mercedes-Benz May be First to Put Lithium-ion Battery into a Mass Produced US Car: S400 BlueHybrid”
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March 1st, 2008 at 6:21 am
So, basically, it’s a Prius on steroids.
If it’s not an PHEV I’m just not interested. . . Sorry.
March 1st, 2008 at 7:42 am
Lyle, what I appreciate the most is your comment. Thanks
March 1st, 2008 at 7:56 am
>> So, basically, it’s a Prius on steroids.
Not even close!
This type of hybrid is an ASSIST.
The Prius type of hybrid is a FULL.
There is a profound difference, one that is intentionally undermined by putting those two types into the same category by labeling both as “parallel”.
The Mercedes-Benz only has one motor, a 15kW. That’s quite small and there is no way to power it other than the battery-pack.
The FULL hybrids have two motors, and the one used for propulsion is larger. In the case of Prius, it’s 50kW. That obviously delivers more thrust. You also have the other motor supplying electricity all the time… keeping the battery-pack well charged, quite unlike the ASSIST hybrid.
It’s scary when I read people’s snap judgments, making assumptions about design. Those errors are leading to misunderstandings that ultimately could harm Volt too. Remember, the true competition is the other 99% of the vehicles currently being purchased… those that don’t use electricity for propulsion at all.
March 1st, 2008 at 8:42 am
to # 3
You state that and I quote, “the other motor supplying electricity all the time… keeping the battery-pack well charged”. Now,unless this motor is a motor-generator, motors do not produce electricity, It consumes electricity. Just thought this needed clarification.
March 1st, 2008 at 8:57 am
This HEV is nothing critical, it is like a Highlander hybrid with the Mercedes name plate, decent mileage improvement but not earthshaking. What is huge is what Lyle points out, this is the early ramp up in production of a battery similar to/or the same as, the Volt battery by Continental.
Can you say, Economies of Scale?
March 1st, 2008 at 9:21 am
The announcement I find most exciting is the S300 BlueHybrid with a 221 hp twin-turbo 4 cylinder DIESEL expected to get 43.6 mpg. WOW —a luxury-class Mercedes that gets roughly 3 TIMES the mileage of today’s S-class offerings!!! If I were Elon Musk (or the large manufacturer he wants to partner with) I’d be starting to worry whether his next “affordable” Tesla model will sell well if Mercedes imports these BlueHybrids to the US!
And take a look at the car’s rear-end in the link below if you like to drool!
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-bringing-first-li-ion-hybrid-to-market/
March 1st, 2008 at 9:21 am
GM and the other manufacturers must be comfortable that there will be enough Lithium and other materials to make all these batteries without driving prices up , but I would like to hear them comment .
March 1st, 2008 at 9:38 am
BTW, the Mercedes press release says the S300 BlueHybrid Diesel with its turbo 4 will generate 413 lb-ft of torque (versus only 277 lb-ft for the S400 gasoline V6). The S300 at 43.6 mpg & 413 lb-ft of torque is well worth waitng for IMO! Lets hope they bring it to the US.
March 1st, 2008 at 10:22 am
john1701a,
I don’t think anyone is “fooled” into thinking this Mercedes is EXACTLY like a Prius, with the exception of Lithium-ion batteries in place of Nickel metal hydride batteries. It IS true that:
1) It is parallel hybrid
2) It is NOT plug-in hybrid
3) It is the FIRST luxury passenger hybrid to hit production
The balance of power contribution between diesel and battery is immaterial to those who are impressed with 43.6 mpg, while still having great performance and luxury.
March 1st, 2008 at 10:25 am
john1701a,
Face it, Toyota made a turkey, and the Prius’ only selling point was that it was a high mileage hybrid. Now that there are other high mileage hybrids available, people will look at the Prius and say, “Ugh, that thing is hideous.”, and buy a beautiful, high performance BMW, Tesla, Fisker, etc.
March 1st, 2008 at 10:52 am
Jason, I hope for your financial security that you do not invest in the stock market. Oh, I wouldn’t place too many bets either.
March 1st, 2008 at 11:01 am
Texas,
Rather than lame snark, how ’bout you state your case, as I’ve stated mine, then we can debate it.
As for bets, I was very successful in the bets I placed when I worked in the high tech industry, while those around me with the same information and capabilities floundered.
March 1st, 2008 at 11:35 am
Good for them! That will help convince battery manufacturers to build capacity for big lithium-ion batteries.
I won’t buy one (for social and financial reasons), but it’s great to see Daimler delivering new technology to those who were willing to pay their premium.
A diesel-electric hybrid is mighty-tempting, though…
March 1st, 2008 at 11:46 am
I look forward to replacing my wife’s e320 with this s300 . I grew up in Germany & have always loved Benz craftsmanship. I also find the news about the Li-ion battery right in line with what I thought all along , A123 systems li-ion battery is a done deal and Gm has moved pass Battery development and are now refining the smaller elec. units . World changing auto is still on track.
March 1st, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Hopefully the Mercedes battery pack will perform well and not run into any “snags”. I think this will help a lot with people’s perceptions about lithium-ion.
March 1st, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Excellent news. The quicker Li-ion gets up to speed the better.
Jason M. Hendler said “3) It is the FIRST luxury passenger hybrid to hit production”
The Lexus Hybrids have been out for some time now, despite your emotions about Toyota.
March 1st, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I’m not buying a Benz in this life or the next, but it’s great to get the batteries out on the road and see how they perform. If nothing else, maybe this will lay the “They’ll catch on fire” myth to rest.
March 1st, 2008 at 12:25 pm
A123 is not providing the cells to continental for S400, its SAFT.
http://news.smh.com.au/daimler-to-manufacture-new-battery/20080301-1w1t.html
Saft also recently opened a Lithium ion maufacting facility for commercial automobile use.
March 1st, 2008 at 12:52 pm
18 Talks
Thanks for discovering this. BTW, neither Johnson Controls nor Saft are new to the battery business —they’ve both been building batteries for decades. From a recent issue of the Financial Times:
“Johnson Controls and Saft have a partnership to produce lithium ion batteries for automotive applications. Among other projects they are one of the two suppliers chosen for GM’s Saturn Vue plug-in hybrid program. Saft has also provided lithium ion battery packs for concept vehicles such as the Chevy Sequel and Ford HySeries drive Edge. The two companies are opening a new plant in Nersac, France to manufacture lithium batteries for a variety of car-makers including Mercedes-Benz, Chrysler and General Motors. The €15million plant has an initial capacity of 5,000 packs a year and will be able to scale up as demand increases. It is believed to be the first plant to be dedicated to automotive lithium ion batteries.”
I’m not at all displeased that Johnson Controls/Saft is not one the Volt’s suppliers. It looks to me they’ll be challenged enough to meet the demand from Mercedes, for Vue’s Plug-in and other car models.
March 1st, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Hmmm … I wonder if the Volt’s lithium ion batteries are going to have to be warmed/cooled by the climate climate control system. Probably will. Future buyers are bound to try driving their Volt across Death Valley, California just to see what would happen.
It’s good to know that the German car manufacturers are getting into the hybrid car business in a big way. I hope Volkswagen or somebody is working on an E-REV too. The more E-REVs on the market, the cheaper the batteries and everything else will get. Of course, I’ll be getting my E-REV from GM.
I’m hoping the Volt is going to impress all those Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and Consumer Reports guys and it’ll be a “smart buy” for me and everyone else. GM has been winning awards for their quality and reliability and so forth lately … with the Malibu and the Cadillac CTS. Let’s hope they keep that streak going.
I want to be able to go around telling people that American cars are winning the big awards vs. the best the Japanese and the Germans can make. I want the Volt to both LOOK GOOD on the exterior and interior and get good ratings for value and reliability, etc. Could it win the 2011 Motor Trend “Car of the Year” award? Let’s hope so.
I want Bob Lutz to “make it so” like Capt. Picard might say. He’d retire as a legend in the car business.
March 1st, 2008 at 2:05 pm
GM Volt Fan,
Under the highly specific plug-in, extended range electric vehicle, I am only aware of GM and Tesla Motors with plans to make them. Fisker Automotive has a vehicle that fits under this description, but it isn’t a pure serial-hybrid, so some people disqualify it for that reason. It is still a plug in electric vehicle with a gasoline engine for range extension.
March 1st, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Base S-Class Sedan without any options: ~$89,000
They go way up from there.
I wouldn’t look for economy of scale from this particular vehicle, but it is good to see more manufacturers offering hybrids.
March 1st, 2008 at 3:31 pm
This has to be the biggest no-news item around. We have all known for many months now that li ion batteries are commercially viable
and will be available in the 2009-2010 time frame. Only the braindead media seems to believe that there is some significant
breakthru here. Producing a plain jane hybrid is no breakthru : I’d
say that Daimler is years behind everyone else.
March 1st, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Didn’t I mention integrating the battery cooling system in with the climate control?
Mercedes is doing it. Sounds like it’s probably a good idea.
To expound further: Have the generator run in a mode that pushes a lot of power to the battery, with some power going to the climate control to regulate heat generated by the battery.
March 1st, 2008 at 6:47 pm
“#19
March 1st, 2008 at 12:52 pm
nasaman
I’m not at all displeased that Johnson Controls/Saft is not one the Volt’s suppliers. It looks to me they’ll be challenged enough to meet the demand from Mercedes, for Vue’s Plug-in and other car models.”
I’m glad to see that a huge player in the battery field such as Johnson Controls is interested in getting in the Li-ion game. As has been stated on this site, WRT batts, technology isn’t the problem, manufacturing is. With JC’s resources I believe that economies of scale can be reached. They make more lead-acid batteries than probably any other co. Obviously they’re partnered with SAFT in Europe, but could they partner with A123 in the US?
March 1st, 2008 at 8:43 pm
I agree with some of the posters above. The first company to get a lithium-ion battery pack into a production vehicle is doing a very significant thing. There are many questions about using lithium-ion in a production vehicle and the first company that uses it will be providing extremely valuable data.
I have to say one thing. I have a slight concern that if there are powerful people (or corporations) that would be negatively affected by the electrification of the automobile then sabotaging this technology might be very beneficial to them. I’m not a conspiracy theorist but I have to say I am a bit worried that a few “unexplained” lithium-ion “accidents” might cause harm to the industry. I hope that if this happens the world will continue to move briskly to electrification. Anyone else have these concerns?
March 1st, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Texas #26
Yes, that and you’re also going to see big oil sponsored articles everywhere raising questions about Li-ion technology just like all the negative articles that have been written about Ethanol. Most of those are baseless.
GM is behind both, and let’s hope the other manufacturers follow suit. I don’t think the ball can be stopped once it’s rolling, but I do believe there will be significant efforts to stop it from ever rolling.
March 1st, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Clarification of #27….GM is behind both E85 and Li-ion NOT the negative articles.
March 1st, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Grizzly #28
I wonder if people realize how beneficial it is for GM to be producing the Volt. If only for the weight they throw around and how much it could hurt the world’s economy if they are crushed from a successful anti-lithium-ion / anti-biofuel campaign. This is not a tiny company like Tesla. The consequences are much greater.
March 2nd, 2008 at 5:53 am
Texas…..
Yes….the consequences are great. The beauty about 2008 as opposed to 1996 is that this is GRASS ROOTS. All the lobbying and big corp shenanigans will ultimately fall short, and they are essentially powerless once the grass roots grow. We’re right on the sewing edge, and we need to cultivate. This is exactly why sites like this are so important.
Keep up the participation and we’ll see this through.
March 2nd, 2008 at 8:07 am
When electricity was first said to be put in homes to lite up your house, (1900’s) people were terrified at the thought. Electricity all around you in the walls, what are they nuts. Edison even tried sabotaging Westinghouse’s AC current with his DC power which was not the best of the two as we know today. You are not a conspirerest if you believe that any company wouldn’t do anything to get the jump or derail another company from making a profit first.
Who ever is first, with the right combination of price and milage, will make that profit.
March 2nd, 2008 at 9:16 am
Jimee #31
DC might start looking a lot better for homes with solar cells and high energy density batteries. AC won the early battle because you could use transformers to up and down the voltage and get high power transmission at practical current levels. Things may change someday with all this new battery technology on the horizon.
March 2nd, 2008 at 11:08 am
Shawn, you are sure right on that, if they don’t need to transmitt it very far, so big gauge wire doesn’t have to be used. Like in a home.
March 2nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Jimee #10, Please check out the following link on High-voltage DC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC
Lightbulb above Jimee’s head about to turn on in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1…
March 2nd, 2008 at 9:39 pm
#6 nasaman
Sorry man that comment is just off. The next Tesla sedan is not even competing in the same class as the S-class. They are planning a sporty 5 series size sedan. Needless to say even just based on weight even the 299 hp V-6 S400 that will get 29.7 mpg won’t be as fast. The S300 BlueHybrid with a 221 hp twin-turbo 4 cylinder expected to get an impressive 43.6 mpg will be even slower. Do a quick calculation with the fact that Tesla will be using the same or similar pack as the Roadster for the sedan and assuming the sedan will get half the efficiency of the roadster (basing this on lotus exige closest in power to roadster getting 23/29 mpg and BMW 550i V8 15/22 mpg… 550i averages to about 70.5% the efficiency of exige but I’m saying 50%): 33705Wh/gal * 110mi/72kWh (Roadster gets 220mi/charge, 72kWh/charge is because of battery temp management and charging inefficiencies for the 53kWh battery) = 51.5mpg. Even the S300 isn’t close with it’s 43.6. Plus you can charge on renewable energy and electricity is usually cheaper than gas esp. diesel. The best you could hope for in the S400/S300 is biodiesel.
Come on nasaman, you are a Volt fan; trying to compare an assist hybrid like the S400/S300 to the upcoming Tesla sedan (either the EV or the E-REV model) is like trying to compare a current Prius and a Volt, they are completely different. A lot of the same arguments can apply to both senarios.
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:51 pm
35 stopcrazypp
You’re right —I should have explained my comments in post #6 re the Mercedes S-class hybrids.
My thinking was based ONLY on marketing considerations, not technical or performance comparisons. So what I meant (and should have said) is that the vast majority of buyers in the $85-100K price range are those who consider PRESTIGE above almost everything else. And, unfortunately, the majority of these folks are not too concerned about the cost of fuel or climate change –they just want a "better" car than most other people have. So although the S-class mild hybrids just announced by Mercedes are totally different (and to me technically inferior) to the Tesla, the mere existence of a "hybrid" label is about all most "prestige" buyers will need to decide to buy.
BTW, GM knows this, and I think it’s why they have several prominent "Hybrid" badges plastered all over even their mildest hybrids —they want to keep those cars moving off showroom floors. :(
March 5th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Hope the Volt intro is closer to 2009.
Its range, size (and looks!) would be a good match for my needs. Assuming 1) GM will in fact build it for production, and 2) price it realistically (don’t wipe out the marginal fuel cost efficiency vs similar mission vehicles), I would buy it the day they ship unit 1.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:51 am
Maybe I’m really missing something here, but why are they not using the two-mode hybrid system that they developed in conjunction with BMW and GM? Does it not fit under the hood of a sedan? After all, we’ve seen it announced that Saturn will use Li-ion for their 2-mode Vue.
March 6th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
I wonder if GM is considering batteries as a option.. smaller ones to keep the cost down and larger ones for people who want longer EV range? And the option to add batteries after you buy the car.
I rented a EV1 for 2 days in LA… I gave many rides to sceptics… every one was convinced in less than 10 seconds.
That first acceleration from 0 to EVgrin … nothing like it!
A first gear that never stops… no shifting…
Effortless acceleration… capturing energy while braking…
Once these EV’s get on the road… people will wonder why it didn’t happen sooner.