AND 
House Passes Energy Bill: Would Take Money from Big Oil to Give Plug-in Car Tax Credits
We have heard that the Chevy Volt could come with a roughly $5000 price premium to early adopters due to the costs of the lithium-ion battery and specialized low-power accessories.
An option that worked for early Prius adopters is the possibility of a U.S.government tax credit to people buying Volts. This could help offset cost and help get the country off petroleum.
As comments on this site had varied both for and against such a credit, it seemed a good idea to take a poll.
The final result of that poll was for 483 respondents 94% voted in favor of tax credits and 6% against.
Yesterday bill HR 5351 was voted on in the house, and was passed. The bill takes tax money from oil companies, to the tune of $18 billion over ten years, and uses it to pay for among other things a plug-in tax credit of $4000 plus $200 per kWh for cars with a battery capacity greater than 5 kWh.
Thus, if this bill were to become law, Big Oil would give you $7200 back if you bought a Volt.
Not surprisingly, Big Oil doesn’t like this idea much. A similar bill made it through the house last summer but died in the Senate.
Also, President Bush has already said he’d veto this bill if it makes it to his desk.
Source (AP)
94 Responses to “House Passes Energy Bill: Would Take Money from Big Oil to Give Plug-in Car Tax Credits”
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February 28th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Yep, Big Oil Bush veto’s any bill that would take money from his Saudi Arabian masters..
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February 28th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Lyle, you wrote: The bill takes tax money from oil companies, to the tune of $18 billion over ten years, and uses it to pay for among other things a plug-in tax credit of $4000 plus $200 per kWh for cars with a battery capacity greater than 5 kWh.
Maybe I’ve misunderstood what you wrote, but it sounds like the $18 billion comes from taxes paid by oil companies. According to this site: the legislation invests in clean, renewable energy and energy efficiency and pays for that investment by repealing unnecessary tax breaks to big energy companies.
I just thought some clarification might be needed.
#1 Mark: LOL
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February 28th, 2008 at 2:37 am
Maybe it will pass next year with a new president. the Volt’s not out yet so there’s still time.
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February 28th, 2008 at 2:59 am
Looking from the outside in, America has currently the biggest joke of a president of all history.
I pity the next administration & president who is left with the mess after the current fiasco leaves office.
Whoever is in power and is of normal intelligence, will see the light and redirect some of the oil backhanders over to plug-ins and other sustainable outcomes as a no brainer.
Otherwise the NA will be like the fall of the Roman Empire.
So let’s trust the next administration is wiser, but will the people wait till that giant ship of “US Economy” is turned around and heading in the right direction.
Let’s all hope so.
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February 28th, 2008 at 3:10 am
Do you really think anything hurting oil companies will pass through a republican controlled senate or republican president without crippling changes? Good luck! I think the EV industry is basically on their own. I hope I’m proved wrong here. I truly would be happy.
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February 28th, 2008 at 6:18 am
The $18 Billion comes out of the oil companies pocket one way or another. You can rest assured that it will result in another round of increases at the pump.
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February 28th, 2008 at 6:30 am
Once again Bush is being criticized in this Forum. This time it is for the veto threat over HR 5351. Perhaps it is worthwhile to understand his reasons – “it would allow a Venezuelan oil company (Citgo) to retain a tax benefit being stripped from U.S. companies. Citgo Petroleum Corp. would continue to receive a 6 percent deduction for domestic manufacturing that the largest firms would lose.”
Sorry guys, I agree with the President on this one even though I would surely like to have that tax credit!
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February 28th, 2008 at 6:38 am
With gasoline prices projected to be $3.00 to $4.00 this summer, and likely continued increases for the next several years, I don’t think the Volt will need tax credits anyway.
Seems the Federal Government has enough fiscal problems as it is, so I personally don’t see a need for a big push for these tax credits.
GM and their battery suppliers need to find solutions that lower battery costs or ensure that they get the sales volume needed to get the economies of scale to reduce battery costs.
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February 28th, 2008 at 7:36 am
The idea that there are tax breaks for oil companies that are making record profits (not just company records, or industry records, but records for any company) just doesn’t seem to make sense. Why do that?
Giving tax breaks to consumers who want to buy cars with new technology that will allow them to run on domestic energy supplies AND reduce carbon emissions makes more sense to me. That is just like supporting HEVs when they first came out because they have much better fuel economy. Now a Prius is self-supporting with a very reasonable payback time so it doesn’t need any help from tax credits.
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February 28th, 2008 at 7:39 am
I’m looking to buy a Volt… and of course, would rather pay $27,800 then $35,000… but should money be taken from the oil companies just because they make too much money? If they make too much money, then there isn’t enough competition… and oil prices should come down. Anybody think that could actually happen? Or do they need to make $11 billion in profit per quarter… Hell, I’d like my own oil company and ride oil out till the end… How do I start? How funny would it be for an oil company CEO to be a proud Volt owner… lol…
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February 28th, 2008 at 7:50 am
People, it makes no difference who is President, or who controls Senate or the Congress. It is all about money, and who has all the available cash?
Oil companies, insurance companies, and drug companies. So do not expect to see any major changes in any of those areas, because they buy the votes they need.
Sorry if that sounds so cynical, but stop and think about this. When was the last time you saw any legislation with any real teeth to it being passed against any of those industries…..
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February 28th, 2008 at 8:13 am
>> An option that worked for early Prius adopters
Really?
5.5 years after introduction is “early” still?
No.
The actual purpose of the credit was to move beyond just early adopters, to rapidly shift the position of hybrids into the mainstream.
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February 28th, 2008 at 8:17 am
# 10 Jim,
AMEN !!! I am in the oil business in south Texas and it is ALWAYS about the money.
You are right on.
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February 28th, 2008 at 8:22 am
This is a terrible plan…here’s why.
GM figures it is going to make 10,000 Volts, and it’s going to sell them at 35K to customers, right now…no tax break.
Now if the gov’t strolls in and says each buyers gets a $7,000 tax break, do you really think GM is still going to keep that price at $35,000? No, it’s going to be $42,000. Darn those unconventional wipers!
We used the Prius as a example in the article, so lets continue with it. When the gov’t dropped the rebate program, Toyota IMMEDIATELY dropped the MSRP. (They originally called it an allowance, then the MSRP dropped actually).
Free market demand people! GM is going to sell the car for as much as they can…ALL WE WILL GAIN IS THE HEADACHE OF DOING SOME PAPERWORK!
How about a allowance that is more ambigious so GM can’t market it as $35,000 after rebate. How about a $7,000 net tax capital gains exemption?
GM be pretty hard pressed to market it as ‘yeah its $42,000…but it’ll be $35,000 when you don’t have to pay the first $7,000 in taxes on money you earned somewhere else.” They couldn’t, it’s too convoluted and all it would do is make people pissed if they marketed it as $35,000* (with a asterisk).
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February 28th, 2008 at 8:47 am
Does anything think it is strange that this rebate would kick in at $4,000 (for 5kW)…when the Prius execs have already stated that the ‘plug-in’ upgrade would add about $4,000-$5,000 to the price?
And the Plug-In Prius pack size? Yupe, 5kw.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:22 am
This bill has no chance of passing because Bush and big oil are in cahoots. I voted for Bush but he turned out to be a “do nothing for the good of the country president”.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Estero @ 7,
You seem to be missing the bigger picture. The Volt is our way of getting off foreign oil, Citgo included. That would hurt Hugo far worse in the short and long term than Bush vetoing the bill.
Jack @ 15. I too regretfully was suckered into voting for Bush. He spends on foreign governments like there’s no tomorrow yet won’t throw a bone to this great cause.
Does anyone know if McCain or Obama would tend to sign the bill? I know that McCain is in favor of higher taxes on gas.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:43 am
IMO, HR5351 has NO chance of clearing the next two hurdles this year ….the Senate and the President’s veto. However, a great many of those in this Congress (and in this Whitehouse) will themselves be “VETOED”
in the November elections, and the bill’s sponsors will undoubtedly introduce it again next year ….when, I have little doubt, it will pass & be signed into law. 
For the few here who oppose the measure (as Lyle says, 94% of the 483 votes in our recent poll favored federal tax credits for plug-in cars), let me emphasize that the bill intends to be tax neutral. In other words, rolling back ~$18B in tax credits to the 5 largest oil companies over a 10 year period (a very small disincentive —their combined profits in ONE year alone –2007– were $123B) is NOT intended to fatten the US treasury’s coffers, but to provide renewable energy developers and users incentives to develop/use energy sources such as wind, solar, etc. ….as well as to encourage the purchase of plug-in electric cars like the Volt.
Although IMO the measure won’t make it through the current Senate and/or administration this year, let’s call/email our Senators & ask them to support the Senate version of HR5351 to help start things rolling for NEXT year. Tax incentives should be available in plenty of time to help the Volt buyer justify his purchase in 2010/2011!
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:46 am
PS: Sect. 30D “plug-in hybrid vehicles” of the bill as just passed is at:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:2:./temp/~c110dOGiGc:e50325:
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:59 am
“Also, President Bush has already said he’d veto this bill if it makes it to his desk.”
Well he won’t be around long, so that won’t matter. Plus Big Oil has already seen the “end of oil” in this country, it’s just a matter of time till we get there. If big oil is smart they’ll move to Dubai, drill in the middle east, and sell there oil to asia.
Don’t let the door hit you in the Ass!
#4 Ausmartin
“Looking from the outside in, America has currently the biggest joke of a president of all history.”
I agree totaly with that statement except for the all of history part i wouldn’t exactly put him in the class with Mussolini. Hitler, Stallin. In american history would of been a better statement, that being said i reserve that right for people on the inside looking out!
.
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:10 am
well, to tell you how much I enjoy big oil screwing everybody, I like these numbers better.
Instead of 18 billion in 10 years, it should be 18 billion EVERY year. That would be the day when big oil gets to help us little people!
Oh, boo hooo hoooo hooo, big oil can’t make 64 billion a year…
Most of us little people make under $50k a year. Maybe they should have treir money stripped away from them, and work at McDonalds, and support 2 kids.
If they were forced to look at things at OUR perspective, maybe they would have a better outlook on life. Well, we all knw this won’t happen.
What do they do with all of those billions of dollars anyway? Hell, if I had just 2 million, everything I could EVER want, I could buy, what the hell is wrong with them?????
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:12 am
The link doesn’t work, nasaman.
It says it expired…..
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Sorry, Jim I —try this: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:2:./temp/~c110JfXPa0:e50325:
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Estero wrote>>
The $18 Billion comes out of the oil companies pocket one way or another. You can rest assured that it will result in another round of increases at the pump.
Eco replies>>
US Oil supplies are steady, Saudi Arabia, Hugo Chavez, and Iran are addicted to 80 dollar oil, and speculators are driving oil futures into triple digits because the dollar is approaching the value of the Mexican peso. There is no “escape key” on this program. The longer oil stays high, the closer consumers come to having real long term alternatives. Bob Lutz knows this, which is why even though he’s clueless on climate change, he does understand that the mutually beneficial relationship between vehicles and fuel is gone. As long as the oil companies kept fuel prices literally cheap, GM and the other car companies would never need to switch propulsion. Now that Big Oil can no longer deliver gasoline for cheap, vehicle producers have been forced to diversify propulsion. The side benefit is that when you replace vehicle-miles traveled with zero-emitting vehicles, urban air pollution will improve. It will improve faster in urban areas than rural, because most e-REVS are going to be sold and operated in cities. And it won’t take as many vehicles as you might assume to start seeing an impact. If drivers in urban areas emitted nothing for 15 percent of all road miles in an urban area, urban air pollution will drop. Not just stop growing, actuall drop.(While power plants emit, they are far better controlled than cars, and their impact is not always on urban areas)
Now it comes full circle. When you see urban air pollution start to come down, you CAN BUILD MORE ROADS. Why NOT build more highways to relieve congestion, if there’s little or no local air pollution consequence?
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Amazing how people never seem to learn from history. Communism is coming to the USA one piece at a time.
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Estero, you said it, but you said it wrong, I have corrected it for you:
The $18 Billion comes out of the OUR pocket one way or another. You can rest assured that it will result in another round of increases at the pump.
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Why do they have to tie this to big oil profits? WHy cant it just come from the general tax base. Saying it comes from big oil is a great way to look like you are doing something but guaranteeing it will go nowhere. Thanks congress.
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Does anyone know what the profit margin is for big oil? And how much is already being collected in taxes on/for oil?
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:05 am
I was under the impression that the $4K tax rebate was already part of tax law. I didn’t realize that it was a new tax policy to be created, otherwise I would have said no.
Now, the poor are burdened even further to allow higher income people buy a new car. It is no different than the poor who now have to pay higher food prices to pay for other people’s E85 fuel.
Make sure you honk twice at the bum on the corner to thank him. Once for the new car rebate, and once for the E85 range-extender fuel in the back..
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:06 am
I can’t believe the gullibility of people. Just where do you think those taxes that the oil companies pay come from. Not big oil but you. It’s just another meddling of big government. It’s time to expose all the hidden taxes we pay disguised as corporate taxes. It’s time for a truly visible tax. The fair tax. Throw out the income tax with all it’s beguiling credits, deductions and restrictions and let America grow!
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Sorry nasaman – that one doesn’t work either. Here is what is displayed:
Please resubmit your search
Search results are only retained for a limited amount of time.Your search results have either been deleted, or the file has been updated with new information.
eco #23: You are missing a point as to why the value of the dollar is so low:
We are spending money we do not have, and we are ten trillion dollars in debt, with no willingness to fix the problem. Seriously people, until we admit we have spent ourselves, our kids, our grandkids, and probably our great grandkids into oblivion, and put the hard policies in place to fix it, nothing is going to get better!
Consider this: If we start right now, balance the federal budget every year and also put 100 billion dollars per year towards reducing the national debt, it will still take 100 years to get that balance to zero!!!!!! The numbers become incomprehensible.
And no one from Washington DC will even talk about this, because the only way to fix it is to raise taxes and cut ALL federal spending programs. This is business 101. You have to live within your budget, and reduce your debt, if you want to be in a strong financial position. It really is that simple…..
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:16 am
30 Jim I
The darned URL times out. Here’s the pertinent parts from the bill as passed yesterday from the Library of Congress:
H.R.5351
Renewable Energy and Energy Conservation Tax Act of 2008 (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)
——————————————————————————–
SEC. 201. CREDIT FOR PLUG-IN HYBRID VEHICLES.
(a) In General- Subpart B of part IV of subchapter A of chapter 1 (relating to other credits) is amended by adding at the end the following new section:
`SEC. 30D. PLUG-IN HYBRID VEHICLES.
`(a) Allowance of Credit- There shall be allowed as a credit against the tax imposed by this chapter for the taxable year an amount equal to the sum of the credit amounts determined under subsection (b) with respect to each qualified plug-in hybrid vehicle placed in service by the taxpayer during the taxable year.
`(b) Per Vehicle Dollar Limitation-
`(1) IN GENERAL- The amount determined under this subsection with respect to any qualified plug-in hybrid vehicle is the sum of the amounts determined under paragraphs (2) and (3) with respect to such vehicle.
`(2) BASE AMOUNT- The amount determined under this paragraph is $4,000.
`(3) BATTERY CAPACITY- In the case of vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with not less than 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, the amount determined under this paragraph is $200, plus $200 for each kilowatt hour of capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The amount determined under this paragraph shall not exceed $2,000.
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:19 am
As can be seen from the above post, the tax credit for a Volt would actually be limited to $6,000 (not $7,200), but that’s still a nice incentive!
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Thanks for cutting and pasting that info here, nasaman!
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:27 am
This is the bill may have passed the house, but it is extensively the same as what was chopped out of the December 2007 energy bill. It was chopped out by a group of Republican Senators.
For the energy bill about 100,000 letters were written in support of it, and it still did not pass, and President has promised a veto for this bill. So 2/3 is needed in the house and senate to override veto. If you want this to pass the only way is a lot of lobbying, that means phoning your politicians offices, sending faxes, and letters.
So what do we think about doing some serious lobbying maybe in conjunction with other blogs and organizations?
Or just wait for new president?
The problem with waiting is that solar and wind industries will suffer, because they will have to go without tax credits for part of 2009. It is not easy to moth-ball your industry.
So are we up for some serious lobbying?
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Lets remember that “Big Oil” makes a lot of money because their sales are big, because the whole world economy runs on their products (currently).
But their profit margins are not that exorbitant… around 10%. That’s less than most other large businesses. That means that they have 90% overhead. And their business requires huge risky investments in unstable areas of the world.
It would be better to put in a gas tax increase or a carbon tax to pay for the Volt credits as this would decrease consumption, and also target coal use (much of the Volt’s electricity will come from coal). Taxing big oil just gives a windfall to coal and natural gas.
That said, direct gas tax increases and carbon tax increases are probably politically untennable hence the demagogary re big oil.
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:43 am
All this talk about tax credits….. let’s take another look here… not all of us here are from the US… I’m from Canada and your tax credits are not going to help me…..
Just get the car out at $ 35 K ish and let me save my money by not constantly putting it in the gas tank. With the miles (KMS) I drive… I will be saving $ 150 per month (at todays prices) and can actually have money back in my pocket to buy things like solar panels and anything green for the environment….
Hey GM…. You got any mules to test yet??? I run a service company and we can give them a “real world” test…. Call me…
I am ready.
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Jim #30
“We are spending money we do not have, and we are ten trillion dollars in debt, with no willingness to fix the problem. Seriously people, until we admit we have spent ourselves, our kids, our grandkids, and probably our great grandkids into oblivion, and put the hard policies in place to fix it, nothing is going to get better!”
The price tag for the petroleum we buy from abroad is about equal to 2/3 the annual national deficit. It will only get worse as global demand continues to push the price up, and as the value of the dollar continues to sink. I can think of no better reason to buy a Volt.
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February 28th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
“We are spending money we do not have, and we are ten trillion dollars in debt, with no willingness to fix the problem. Seriously people, until we admit we have spent ourselves, our kids, our grandkids, and probably our great grandkids into oblivion, and put the hard policies in place to fix it, nothing is going to get better!”
Do you know who owns the debt? We do! Or most of it anyway. Foreigners only own about 25%.
http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/a1_national_debt/index.html
“And no one from Washington DC will even talk about this, because the only way to fix it is to raise taxes and cut ALL federal spending programs. This is business 101. You have to live within your budget, and reduce your debt, if you want to be in a strong financial position. It really is that simple”
If all the spending were cut, what would the purpose of raising taxes be? So the government could pay itself?
The government does not create wealth. People and businesses do. We need to cut spending and REDUCE taxes. The trouble is not enough people want to give up their government dollars.
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February 28th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Agreed, but that doesn’t mean we should all get a $6K present for buying a new car. That just adds to that debt total…..
For example:
If 250,000 cars are eligible for the credit times $6,000 per car equals $ 1,500,000,000.00. I just wanted everyone to see the number, rather than just saying $1.5 billion!
If Statik is right and there are 500,000 Prius’s ($4K credit each) and suppose Ford and Chrysler jump in with an EV along with GM ($6K credit each), maybe we will hit one million cars for the credit. Are you ready for that number? $ 5,000,000,000.00 ($5 billion). Now we are talking serious numbers!
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February 28th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
None of it matters.
You can hand a perfectly running system to any Democrat, and they will screw it up. Theirs is NOT a reality-based view of the world. They want so badly a system that rewards well-intentioned, yet non-viable policies, so that they can have their cake and eat it too. They go so far as to not teach those who are most needy, the behaviours that will lead to their own prosperity, because the needy would no longer need them nor vote for them.
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February 28th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
39 Jim I:
$5 billioh is a big number all right. It’s almost enough to run the war in Iraq for a whole month!
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February 28th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
“$5 billioh (sic) is a big number all right. It’s almost enough to run the war in Iraq for a whole month!”
Right on!
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February 28th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Post #39 was for Glenn
This one is for Mike756 #38:
I agree completely with your ideas, but to balance the budget and begin to pay off the debt, and at the same time reduce taxes, you would have to cut almost all federal programs to ZERO, and I sure don’t see that happening!
Are you aware that the third largest item in the federal budget is the interest payment towards the national debt? Nothing toward the principal, just the interest payments!! And that one can not be cut from the yearly federal budget, unless you reduce the principal amount. So we are in serious financial trouble…………
In the not too distant future, most of the taxes we pay will be to make interest payments. It is just ridiculous……….
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February 28th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Here is a 5,000 dollar option for GM’s Volt. Simply use a cheap alternator to power all the creature comforts in this vehicle. I realize this affects range, but for 5 grand, I for one am willing to make that concession.
PLUS, GM makes good alternators which can be installed in the Volts for nearly nothing…
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February 28th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Figures, President Bush has all these speeches and such talks about helping the environment and even gives money to departments in charge or advanced research for alternate fuels for cars. But then something like the above comes along which will really help plug-in cars take off and improve the environment as well as lower our dependence on foreign oil but he says he will veto it. What a dumb @ss!!
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February 28th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Got to love it. Democrats vote to fund the war in the name of National security while they take away the money to build the border fence in the dead of night in the omnibus bill. Russia is peeved at USA over KOSOVO and still has its suitcase nukes to get rid of. I heard a bunch of terrorists frequently cross over the border from the south with luggage. So once again why are we spending Billions in Iraq monthly but won’t secure our own country or fund the Volt or programs to get us oil independant? National security has nothing to do with it, there is no national pride in DC they are all for a one world government & like the King of England we give away our power & rights for money & greed. The grand experiment has failed, Jefferson was correct. Time to start over Representative Democracy does not work. Two cheers for the Second Amendment! Will there be a country for the vote to come to?
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February 28th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
I’m finding that some of my replies are not being posted – has anyone else has this problem?
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February 28th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
43 Glenn:
Thanks. Sorry. My proofreading skills are obviously not what they should be.
44 Jim L:
No s**t! Somebody told me once that, when you are in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.
48 David L:
Alas, they post all of mine -typos and all!
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February 28th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
BigRedFed #26. Agree!
Anytime the government levies a tax, the businessess affected (in this case, oil companies) turn right around and inceases their price. In the end, it all comes out of the pocket of us consumers.
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February 28th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
“The $18 Billion comes out of the oil companies pocket one way or another. You can rest assured that it will result in another round of increases at the pump.”
Great. So maybe people will stop driving Hummers.
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February 28th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Jason M. Hendler@41,
DUDE! Have you been paying attention!?!?! Have you analyzed anything you’ve seen on the news in the last 7 years?!?
I just hope my latest friend to go to Iraq gets home in one piece, mentally and physically…. This stuff is deadly serious, especially for those of us young enough to see the very direct cost our society is paying (and will be paying for decades to come)…
Anyway, let’s keep the partisanship out of it and talk about the technology and the car. I’ll buy a friendly pitcher of beer if you want to talk about the other stuff stuff — but be prepared for some strong opinions….!
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
The legislation rolls back tax breaks the oil companies have enjoyed for a while now. (Didn’t the NREL get their funding cut recently also? If so that’s another true tragedy….)
The money will be directed to tax credits for our future electric cars and to other clean renewable energy research. This is how to invest in the future, the right way. Rewards those who have the courage to wade in first and encourages acceptance of the technology through lowering the future costs and psychological barriors to the rest.
If the US gets an upper hand on the critical technology and breakthroughs in these other energy areas, US companies becoming world leaders in these renewable fields, the skilled domestic job creation would be welcomed. The US needs to be leaders in this research proving the technolgy is sound, and creating the new solutions. Instead of being looked at as the primary reason for the worlds current energy related problems, we can be viewed as a leader in fixing them.
This may go a long way towards changing our country’s reputation.
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Jim L:
“Are you aware that the third largest item in the federal budget is the interest payment towards the national debt? Nothing toward the principal, just the interest payments!!”
1.5 billion is nothing to the US goverment! We spend 2 trillion a year on our military! How long would it take to pay off our debt if we only spent 500 billion on our military per year. That’s a savings of 1.5 Trillion (with a T) per year.
I’ m a limited govt. guy to, but why should we have crumbs like a 6k tax rebate taken away when our Federal Govt. is so fiscaly out of control.
1.5 Billion in tax rebates = 2 weeks of iraq war
or
1.5 Billion in tax rebates = the stealth bomber that crashed the other day
We could leave Iraq tommorow if we wanted, shit lets start with Germany, Japan, Korea, or any other place we went and never left. Why should we sacrafice our 6K tax rebate (not free money, just less due in income tax) while our goverment spends trillions a year maintaining our Economic Imperial Empire.
I voted for Ron Paul so i’m 100% with limited federal goverment, but i’m doing my part, it’s time for our Govt do it’s.
Call me when the Revolution starts.
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
You know what sucks i’ve been thinking of cool slogans to put on my back window in vinyl decals.
Most of them start with Hummer owners are part of the problem!
I just realized dosen’t GM make the hummer also? Talk about both sides of the spectrum.
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
#47 Nuetron Flux
“The grand experiment has failed, Jefferson was correct. Time to start over Representative Democracy does not work. Two cheers for the Second Amendment! Will there be a country for the vote to come to?”
Dude you are so right, representative democracy has failed. People are so disenfranchised we get what 45% of registered (registered is not even half) voters out to the polls. So in actuality we get what 25% of americans to the voters both every 4 years. Forget the “not important” ones like state level elections, or even local level.
We got to start over!
Didn’t Jefferson also say a country should over throw their goverment every 10 years?
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
#41 Jason Hendler
“None of it matters.
You can hand a perfectly running system to any Democrat, and they will screw it up. Theirs is NOT a reality-based view of the world. They want so badly a system that rewards well-intentioned, yet non-viable policies, so that they can have their cake and eat it too. They go so far as to not teach those who are most needy, the behaviours that will lead to their own prosperity, because the needy would no longer need them nor vote for them.”
Dude i mostly agree with you, I’m from NJ. We are the home of the Democratic Machine, i see burecratic waste that would make your head pop. I have watched the dems turn this entire state into one big troft for them and all their state friends to eat at.
That being said since there is only 2 parties to choose from i’ll take the one that dosen’t send our boys to die for a made up reason that they knew wasn’t true. Then keeps us their by saying well look how much we f-ed these people up now we gotta stay!
You can live a life of fear tactics and constant unilateral aggression, i’ll stick with the bleeding hearts!
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Jon P., #55:
“You know what sucks i’ve been thinking of cool slogans to put on my back window in vinyl decals.
Most of them start with Hummer owners are part of the problem!
I just realized dosen’t GM make the hummer also? Talk about both sides of the spectrum.”
Yes, GM owns Hummer….
and Toyota makes the Sequoia, Land Cruiser, Tundra, etc…
and Nissan makes the Armada, Titan, etc…
heck, even Honda makes the Ridgeline.
Just remeber, none of those companies force people to buy huge vehicles. They just make what people will buy.
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Interesting sidenote:
From CNN report on Bush news conference today.
The same day oil closes at ~$103/barrel.
….. Analysts have said that gasoline could reach $4 a gallon by this spring, due to strong demand and a change in formulation, among other reasons.
When taking the question about the $4 milestone, Bush told the reporter, “That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that….. I know it’s high now.” ……..
?
?
?????????? did he actually say that?
THAT’S the scariest thing I’ve read in a while! Hasn’t this scenario been discussed for MONTHS??
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Jim #44
“Are you aware that the third largest item in the federal budget is the interest payment towards the national debt? Nothing toward the principal, just the interest payments!! And that one can not be cut from the yearly federal budget, unless you reduce the principal amount. So we are in serious financial trouble…………”
Yeah, most of that is the interest they are paying to themselves. The government is counting on growth. As long as the economy is growing, I don’t see much of a problem. If you going to argue that we should move to a zero growth economy, that is a whole different discussion.
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February 28th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Brian M #58:
Touché…..
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February 28th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
59 MetrologyFirst:
Remember when his dad went to the supermarket, looked at the scanner, and said, “What’s that?”
I doubt if George II has been down at ARCO pumping any gas in his own car lately.
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February 28th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
The Canadian government (currently run by a conservative minority) is planning to abandon the current federal “ecoAuto” rebate program and instead subsidize R&D to the auto industry:
The government also pledged $250-million over five years to support research and development of greener vehicles, but the funds fell well short of what the auto industry felt was necessary to stimulate investment in such projects.
Meanwhile, another program aimed at encouraging greener vehicles – the ecoAUTO Rebate program, which delivered rebates of up to $2,000 to people buying fuel-efficient vehicles – will be allowed to expire next year after it runs its two-year course.
While the program has been attractive for environmentally conscious consumers, the auto makers saw it as providing an incentive to buy fuel-efficient foreign-made cars rather than bigger vehicles built by Canadian manufacturers.
Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080226.wparkinsonbudget0226/BNStory/budget2008/home
I think that the current 5% Goods and Services Tax (GST) and 7% Provincial Sales Tax (PST) on all new cars should be scrapped for all very low-emission vehicles. This would reduce the likelihood of car manufacturers boosting the sales price if rebates or other incentives were offered. In the case of the Volt costing $35K, this would amount to a savings of $4200 of GST and PST that would not have to be paid.
I’m sure that in the US, state legislators could also manage similar reductions in state taxes for very low-emission vehicles like the Volt.
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February 28th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Tax law is an effective tool that should be utilized to make E-REV vehicles competitive, at an earlier rate than the market normally would.
I’m a free market conservative, but I don’t think effective tools like this should be ignored if they can help achieve the goals.
death to oil – http://www.oiljihad.org
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February 28th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
51 ug – Amen.
52 Luke – Amen.
53 MetrologyFirst – Amen.
54 & 57 Jon P – Amen.
Man, I can’t even get anything up here before you guys beat me to it and/or go me one better. Blog on – you guys are awesome!
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February 28th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Now that’s a thought, a non-representative democracy. What with the internet and all, we’d just directly vote on everything. Sure would be a tough time for lobbyists, they’d have to reach millions rather than finding their favorite representative’s office.
Unfortunately it’s not going to happen but the idea is interesting indeed.
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February 28th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Agreed. Representative Democracy has failed. But there will be no changing it. It is too entrenched and too corrupt.
Someone above was trashing Democrats. I’m a Republican and I can tell you the Republicans aren’t any better. They all stink.
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February 28th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
>> Blog on
Hmm?
The good old days when Volt was discussed seems to be long gone now. Stuff like… safety (size), shams (global warming), terms (ideology), and politics (taxes) …are all we seem to get anymore.
What is the purpose?
Clearly adhering to goal should be the focus.
A united cause sure would be a whole lot more productive than repeating the same old stuff that has been debated for many years already.
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February 28th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
john1701a #67:
But how many times can we discuss the aero specifications on a car we have yet to see?
And this thread was about taxes and credits…..
It is time for GM to release some new specs on the car!!!! Or how about a picture…………
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February 28th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Here we are on the verge of another great engineering invention, and what do we do – immediately the worst is brought out in us as we attack with accusations of “know it all”, “politics”, “it’s the Presidents fault”, “one up man ship”, “blame America”, “find the tail of the donkey with a pin”, “jealousy over who might reap an advantage”, “who is on the take”, “who takes advantage of the rest of us” scenarios . . . all things that slow down truly creative engineering enterprise. Let’s not allow those who have nothing to offer but criticism show up at the table and distract the US from getting the job done. WHO refuses to allow us to drill for oil in Alaska – every barrel we produced would correspondingly reduce our out-of-balance in trade by $100!!! WHO blocked and continues to block this common sense step? Not the president. OK – so lets move from oil to coal – what engineering has been accomplished to produce coal so clean it can be burned in ANY power plant and that plant will meet EPA standards???? Go look at EEE on the NY stock exchange. But notice, because of the rush away from coal – EEE stock is worth 1/10th what it was a year ago.
Yeah – I believe in Solar – I had solar hot water heating in my Seattle home 25 years ago and took water off the roof on a warm day at 170 degrees. And I reduced the oil consumption in my home from 2000 gallons a year to 600 by improving insulation – that saved some energy – and then I went to a 300% efficient heat pump – so that my heating bill was reduced from what would have been $6000 a year in an un-insulated 1925 home to $600 a year in an insulated heat pumped home. And congress legislates mini-fluorescents instead of incandescents – congress apparently doesn’t know the problem they have with mercury pollution – but congress has time to debate athlete’s misuse of steroids – now there’s something they can get their arms around!
Sound engineering principles should be allowed to work here. If the Volt is the right car – it will be designed to justify the price. GM will take some risk in the beginning, just like Boeing took some risk with the development of the 747 (almost bankrupted the company when Pratt and Whitney engines went out-of-round when hung on the wings and the turbine blades scraped the engine casing).
Step back – let GM do its thing – the initial cars may cost more than you can afford – so let someone else buy the first ones. We all know the time has come for electric vehicles, so the price will come down to a more affordable level. We don’t need government subsidies. The American free enterprise entrepreneurial spirit is in our corner.
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February 28th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Please send followup comments.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
>> Here we are on the verge of another great engineering invention, and
>> what do we do – immediately the worst is brought out…
Well said.
My concern is how the purpose of being a great resource for Volt has become overrun with clutter. Normally, it’s those fighting your cause the attempt to nudge discussions in a non-constructive direction. That’s called undermining. But here, that damage is self-inflicted.
What kind of impression does this make when someone does a search on Volt and discovers this website?
The answer is they get turned off and leave, never to return. Some websites ban volatile topics (like politics) for this very reason. Sorry, but that’s the reality of the situation. At this very moment, the price of oil is $102.95 per barrel. Higher gas prices are on the way… conditions perfect for promoting hybrids.
Think about the competition… both other hybrids and the overwhelming force of traditional vehicles, as well as the forces trying to prevent change. It’s your choice what to do. Choose wisely.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
For those that know better, please correct if I’m wrong. ALL domestic drilling currently benefits from tax bracks. Pres. Bush and congress put in a lot of these incentives in 2000 to try to advance domestic oil & gas production. I a believe drilling investments are basically 100% deductible in the 1st year, basically reducing the initial “cost” of investment by the inverstors tax rate. It is basically 100% depreciation. There are other tax benefits throughout the life of the well. Most of the gas at the pumps does not come from domestic wells anyway, so theoretically, eliminating these tax incentives has little effect on the net cost of all of the gas & oil we use. In reality, money is money, and if the companies want to maintain the same margins (not coincidentally, very high margins since about 2000) they may need to raise prices some. BUT, the biggest affect will be on reduced dometic exploration.
So, is this good or bad? Since domestic resources are so extensively explored, most of the easy oil has already been found and exhasted or on the way there. The remaining resources are harder and more expensive to find and exploit. Thus, domestic exploration will fall off significantly. Personally, I don’t think this is a bad thing if it is offset by icentives for oil saving products like the Volt AND increasing the strategic oil reserve by an intelligent amount. We are far better off using foreign resources to create a larger reserve cushion and keeping our dwindling domestic resources for when we REALLY need them. I believe efforts to keep our domestic supply near where it was are (and have been) mostly fruitless with or without the incentives (look at the domestic supply curve), let alone trying to keep up demand as it would be with current usage patterns. The main results of the current incentives have been to accelerate the decline of our domestic resources, greatly enrich exploration entities, and all with minimal effect on our foreign oil reliance or end user prices.
In mind eliminating domestic exploration incentives is such a “no brainer” (have at me Oil lovers), it is mind boggling that anyone would argue against it. That said, I haven’t HR 5351 to know what the details and other ramifications are.
Either way, everyone concernced about oil supply and energy independence should plant themselves squarely in favor of plug-ins of any meaningful energy storage capacity.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Andy,
The majority of the public are programmed through experience to think along accepted paths. The Volt (in particular) is a new path, and that path is uncertain and questionable to those who don’t seek to learn the details. I think we can all agree it is clearly in the best interests of the country to ween ourselves off oil dependency. Even the govt agrees. GM has taken a monster step and risk to make an attempt at this. At the risk of getting my head handed to me here, I think it is the responsibility of the federal govt to support this American company or any American company who takes this type of multi-billion dollar, infrastructure-changing risk. If that’s through tax credits for early adoptors, so be it. If it makes the car a little less expensive and can sway some people on the fringe to take the chance and purchase one, then the tax credit program would be a success.
It seems to me the point of the credits is to help the fringe buyers over the hump. The Volt needs a fighting chance to reach mainstream buyers. The Volt is not an iteration of the past like some recent hybrids, it is a paradigm shift. Most people want nothing to do with technology that takes them out of their comfort zone. In addition, I would think the tool up costs for a car like this would be an enormous one-time expense to the company. Its not like most of the components are shared with other offerings.
Considering these expenses, GM still has to sell these at an unbiased price and project if the line can support itself down the road. I have no idea how much it will cost to produce a Volt. Neither does anyone else. I think we all need to bake off a little on our expectations.
If the Volt fails due to poor execution, then GM deserves its destiny. If it fails because the public stood back and said “I’m not going first!” and the govt did nothing to bridge the gap, then that would be a tragedy. We don’t need a bunch of environmentalists to buy up all the Volts. We need the average guy down the street; then show his neighbors; talk to his co-workers, etc…
If the tax credits get these guys to buy one, then the Volt and E-flex has a shot at changing the game permanently.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
“Now if the gov’t strolls in and says each buyers gets a $7,000 tax break, do you really think GM is still going to keep that price at $35,000? No, it’s going to be $42,000.”
There are plenty of cars and car manufacturers to choose from. Another more likely (or at least wiser strategy for GM) scenario is the Volt price goes up $2000 more than it would have been without the incentive buy GM build 50K instead of 10K. Hopefully GM and any other plug-in car manufacturers realize that maximizing the individual car margin of their first generation vehicle at the expense of market acceptence and penetration would be a foolish decision.
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February 28th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
Nice to know what the Tax is on gas…
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
We need to get this “LED lighting revolution” going in high gear so there will be plenty of inexpensive electricity available for our Chevy Volts in 2010+. We need the WHOLE energy field to get more energy efficient and less expensive, less wasteful and less bad for the environment, etc.
http://www.forbes.com/finance/2008/02/27/incandescent-led-cfl-pf-guru_in_mm_0227energy_inl.html
I can’t wait til I can get me some LED light bulbs with 1,600 lumens of light output (100 watt incandescent bulb equivalent) for about the same price as you can get 6 compact fluorescent bulbs at Wal Mart right now.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5984213
The LED light bulbs will save you 50% more in energy than the compact fluorescent bulbs … and CFLs already can save you money on your power bill. Plus, “the quality of light” of LED bulbs is supposed to be better and you can program them to change color. All kinds of cool stuff.
Once they start making these LED bulbs, they might be pretty cheap and they last a LONG time …. 10+ years maybe. You already have cheap LED lights in your car right now. For now, you should replace your incandescent bulbs with the CFLs to save energy and money and then switch to the LED bulbs once they come out in a few years.
They already can make LED bulbs that output enough light to equal 60 watt incandescent bulbs. I bet they’ll have LED bulbs out equaling 100 or 150 watt incandescent bulbs in the next year or two. Once they can make LED bulbs like these inexpensively, it could save America maybe 25% or more on it’s annual energy bills. No joke. That’s HUGE. That’s why they are calling it an LED revolution. That’s very good for the Chevy Volt. We need cheap electricity and we don’t want to have to build too many new power plants if we don’t need to … especially the coal plants which I hope we won’t be building anymore.
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
It seems that corporations out there are finding new and more obnoxious ways to get more and more money out of all of us. In peoplepowergranny.blogspot.com tonight I write about how their sticky little fingers find more and more ways of getting richer on our behalf. Also vote in my poll on what angle bothers you most!
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Just tax big oil for whatever you need. What’s going to happen when big oil is no longer making billions and paying hundreds of billions to the government? YES HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS! What’s going to happen to your 401K, IRA or whatever other retirement accounts you have that big oil has made much money for you the shareholder, yes YOU.
So instead of spewing your arrogance, why don’t you demand that your government stops throwing your money down the toilet on wasteful spending. And stop paying for the poor man that can’t provide health insurance for his family, but can make the payment on his Escalade.
Arrogance = Socialism.
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Well good old “W” rides again. The “Decider” will do anything to line his own pockets while screwing the American public. No wonder he has the lowest ratings of any President ever. The Chimp reigns supreme!
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Rashiid Amul #66 said “Representative Democracy has failed. But there will be no changing it. It is too entrenched and too corrupt.
Someone above was trashing Democrats. I’m a Republican and I can tell you the Republicans aren’t any better. They all stink.”
I too am Republican. In my lifetime there has only been 1-Democrat and 1-Republican President worth his salt. The rest have been worthless. Those now running (on both tickets) are among the worst!
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February 28th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
You would think Bush would favor the bill. He asked OPEC to produce more oil and they pretty much ignored him. If I were in his shoes I would want to do something to reduce our demand for oil. Ignoring the problem will make it worse down the road.
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
#65 Grizzly
“Now that’s a thought, a non-representative democracy. What with the internet and all, we’d just directly vote on everything. Sure would be a tough time for lobbyists, they’d have to reach millions rather than finding their favorite representative’s office.”
I love it! Post the proposed bill on-line, and then require a passed questionaire on the bill before a vote could be submitted. This would insure that the person voting has read and understands the bill.
TRUE government BY THE PEOPLE! Absolutely brilliant!
A huge portion of corruption has just been eliminated.
hmmmmmmm.
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
People, please research the Presidential candidates and vote your values. The next President will either make or break our country.
Where’s my Volt?
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
#71 john1701a, wrote:
I totally agree with you … I first discovered this site early last fall, and have been checking it daily since December. In the past month or so there seems to be a lot more volatility in the discussions. I suggest that Lyle limits potentially contentious issues to one blog posting a week. That way, the other six postings can focus on technical discussions, news, advancements, etc. regarding the one thing that we can all agree on – that we want to see the Chevy Volt in production!
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February 28th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
john1701a
Congratulations. I’ve read every post in this thread and you are obviously the only person here who is having a good clinical response to their medication.
Seriously.
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February 29th, 2008 at 1:17 am
MetrologyFirst
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I find myself agreeing with you. There was a comment that if the government gave a tax deduction, then the “evil” GM would just raise prices by the same amount. On second thought, the point that competition with other car companies will prevent this makes huge sense. I just get so tired of seeing every technical advance or breakthrough met with unbounded pessimism. This is not a space for politics, but one for encouraging ourselves and GM on to success in the electromotive automobile business.
Thanks again MetrologyFirst.
Andy
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February 29th, 2008 at 1:18 am
The version that was in the Senate June ‘07:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/us_senators_int.html
“The amount of the credit is a $2,000 base plus $400 for each kilowatt hour of traction battery pack capacity in excess of 2.5 kWh, with a cap of $7,500 for passenger vehicles of up to 10,000 pounds. A GEM (gasoline-ethanol-methanol) flex-fuel plug-in or a plug-in vehicle warranted by its manufacturer to run on biodiesel receives an extra $150.”
Proposed by Cantwell(D), Hatch(R), and Obama(D) in a bipartisan effort. Yes, that Obama. Would’ve given the Volt $7650 in tax credit. Obviously ended up on the Congressional cutting room floor. Not too dissimilar to what has just been passed by the House except that the new incarnation gives more up front for ANY PHEV whereas the older Senate version made more of it earnable with higher battery capacity.
One suspects that the next President will sign a tax credit for PHEV and EREVs into law long before the Volt is out. And in case you think that I am assuming an Obama victory please this from McCain – http://www.johnmccain.com/informing/news/Speeches/13bc1d97-4ca5-49dd-9805-1297872571ed.htm
“I’ll work to promote real partnerships between utilities and automakers to accelerate the deployment of plug-in hybrids.
With some of the savings from cutting subsidies for industries that can stand on their own, we can establish a national challenge to improve the cost, range, size, and weight of electric batteries for automobiles.”
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February 29th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Seriously, taxing the oil companies doesn’t hurt the oil companies. I hate that logic. “We are going to make oil pay for what they are doing to the environment, it’s not fair they are making so much money and we are going to make them pay!”
Guess who pays, not oil compnanies. They are going to make their money because there is always, in the foreseeable future, going to be a need for their product.
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February 29th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
67 john1701a:
Well like it or not, the Volt, if implemented, will have profound geopolitical implicatons. For a long time I wanted to focus on the technical details and felt that the political comments were clutter. Now I guess that I am one of the worst offenders!
I have come to believe that it is productive for the cause of the Volt for us to put forward as strongly as possible its potential to change the oil centered international game. Never mind that probably less than one in 10 of the cars I saw on the freeway this morning were made by US companies. God send that the Volt will be a leader in changing that sorry equation too
73 MetrologyFirst:
I could not agree more. Hey, if they could do it for Toyota and Honda they ought to be able to do it for GM. If we don’t figure out how to protect our jobs and our people’s standard of living, we are in grave danger of becoming a second world nation within the lifetimes of our grandchildren.
And yes, that does have everything to do with the Volt.
.
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February 29th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
28 leon
“Does anyone know what the profit margin is for big oil? And how much is already being collected in taxes on/for oil?”
This is a good but rarely asked question. The average profit margin for most oil companies is < 10%. That is low for any industry, and unusually low for an industry as risky as oil. US oil companies were loosing massive amounts of money just 10 years ago. The industries current profits still haven’t made up for those losses. It is the size of the oil industry that allows people to criticise the oil industry’s profits. The oil industry is one of the largest industries if not the largest in the US. An exxon profit of 29 billion doesn’t look so sweet when compaired with an investment of 236 billion. But, if you have a political agenda, 29 billion is all you mention.
exxon’s most recent sec filing can be found here:
http://www.secinfo.com/d1197.u4n.htm#1stPage
Still, I support a heavy tax on oil companies, and tarrifs on cisco, then using that money to fund the technologies like the volt that have the potential to get us off of oil. Yes, I know it would ultimately be paid for at the pump. However, the people would never support a direct tax at the pump. Fortunately, they are too dumb to understand a tax on oil companies amounts to the same thing. I support this tax because we need to move hard, really hard, to get off of oil.
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February 29th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Well I don’t know about the oil companies, but I’ll promise you that Hugo Chavez, the Saudi royal family, the government of Iran, Comrade Putin, and a whole bunch of our other pals are doing just great at $103+/barrel.
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February 29th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Not sure if this link was posted before but some interesting information on peak oil and the world energy situation from an expert.
http://www.eptrail.com/pages/02friday_m/fri06comm.html
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March 1st, 2008 at 4:50 pm
The only real way to shift us away from oil is to put a large tax on gasoline and diesel. If the government did that the market would push alternative technologies. Tax breaks and subsidies for electric cars or EREVs won’t do much at all because they are so unstable no company is going to bet everything on them, but if gasoline were at a steady 8 dollars per gallon you bet there would be a lot of money thrown at alternatives and the change would be quick.
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