Most GM executives involved in the Volt program say the battery is the major stumbling block to development. Other new low-power components have to be made for the car in order to allow the 40 mile range, but these are mostly minor engineering tasks.
Normal cars have tremendous supplies of energy for the accessories to run off (radios, wipers, A/Cs, etc.), but considering the very tight supply of battery power the Volt will carry, these components will have to be tightly managed and highly frugal energy “sippers”.
Sharon Terlap at the Detroit News published an interview with Frank Weber, Volt vehicle line executive, to further expand on this area.
Frank told her:
“People tend to believe that if the battery question is solved, everything is solved and the vehicle will work, but beyond the battery, the electric vehicle presents challenges that are significant.”
The report mentions that the supplier base for these energy efficient components has to be built up as well for the car to make it to mass production.
Weber also says “There is not an established supplier community for this. It’s a very complicated system with known technological solutions. But they’ve never been integrated in these forms.”
In the end Weber admits, though, that it’s really “not a matter of invention” but rather the application of technologies that cars wouldn’t ordinarily need.
Source (Detroit News)
This entry was posted on Wednesday, February 20th, 2008 at 7:50 am and is filed under Efficiency, Engineering. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Feb 20th, 2008 (8:26 am)Interesting article Lyle. The Detriot News uses a graphic that would lead the casual observer to believe the Volt could have exploding batteries. We know that is not the case, but again this shows that the press doesn’t always help our cause.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (8:46 am)I still believe (and have posted this before) that when it comes to power management of the accessories, the real concern is not the range degradation while under battery power but performance and safety issues when the ice/gen kicks in. As I understand it, the generator’s maximum output is matched to average motor power requirements. When maximum power is needed from the drive motor, this energy comes from the 30% reserve in the battery. If you add lights, wipers and heater/defrost to that equation – where does the power come from? At some point the HP output of the drive motor will have to be diminished or the 30% reserve in the battery will be used up. I didn’t mention “radio” because it’s not a safety issue, neither is A/C for that matter. And speaking of the radio… AM/FM with 4 speakers and maybe a USB port. No CD drive, no amp, no sub woofer. Lets not lose sight of what this car is supposed to be. JMHO
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Feb 20th, 2008 (8:51 am)The Detroit News should go back and reports news not fiction. They are not in the business of judging technologies which they know nothing about. I guess some of these reporters think they know more than the GM engineers-lol. They should stick with reporting facts, not opinions. And If they should report opinions, then say so.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (9:06 am)I don’t think anyone knows for sure that the generator power output will be matched only to the required power needed for the electric motor. Where did get that info #2? I believe it makes much more sense when the engine needs to kick in, the generator would provide power to the electric motor and at the same time recharge the battery. If that can done and still retain it’s efficiently, then that’s the way to go. Safety will not be a problem.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (9:33 am)Tesla seems to have solved all of these issues with the Roadster and has not affected range in the least. If there are one, two, or more components that are problematic, may be time to license the technology rather than reinventing the wheel. Just a thought.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (9:42 am)I would think, as a matter of safety, that the range-extender would provide more HP while accessories were running, as it does in a conventional car. The batteries should never fall below 30% under any circumstances while the ICE is running.
I don’t believe the ICE should be set to a single RPM / load, but should run at an optimal rate for whatever load is applied to the whole system.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (9:56 am)The Tesla is awesome, if I had $100,000 to buy a spare car I’d get one, but it still has all these problems.
The Tesla gets around heat by heating the two seats, They cut their range from 250 to 200 miles, the whole entire car is a Lotus copy and there’s no way those batteries will have a ten year life.
They can run their radio and wipers from the main battery because it’s larger, but it will cut into their range.
I love that GM is open, and that they’re apparently not pushing back the date of release.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (10:11 am)Jason M. Hendler #6 said: “I don’t believe the ICE should be set to a single RPM / load, but should run at an optimal rate for whatever load is applied to the whole system.”
Corrrect me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that radically change the concept of the Volt? Wouldn’t that result in the ICE running near full time? Just asking questions!
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Feb 20th, 2008 (10:33 am)Let’s also not forget that the power steering will also be electric and not hydraulic. GM already has these in their vehicles, but with an ICE running an alternator specifically for items like these.
In the Volt this is another hurdle and another drain on the pack. I’ve got to wonder how they tackled this in the EV-1. Regardless this article should be a wakeup call for the few on this site who believe that this vehicle is as simple as bolting in an electric motor and a 3-banger/gen set into a Cobalt chassis. Not quite.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (11:10 am)Estero,
I don’t think that is what Jason is saying. I think what he’s getting at is that while running on battery only, the extraneous devices would draw from the battery also. When the 30% threshold is reached, the ICE kicks in and adjusts its output (and fuel consumption) to compensate for the power requirements of the motor and the other devices.
I would think that the RPM range would be pretty limited, considering that charging the battery pack still represents the lion’s share of work that the generator is performing.
Just my two cents. I’m not an engineer, just a fan.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (11:15 am)Estero,
OptimisticMF stated it better than I could. Your question is valid, as I was not perfectly clear, but I did mean that:
“while running on battery only, the extraneous devices would draw from the battery also. When the 30% threshold is reached, the ICE kicks in and adjusts its output (and fuel consumption) to compensate for the power requirements of the motor and the other devices.”
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Feb 20th, 2008 (11:36 am)Batteries of this size have never been tried in any automobiles for a considerable amount of time and they are costly too.
Why not use Compressed air engine for the first 40 miles using a 10000 psi carbon fibre tank ?
and gasoline engine as range extender ?. Exhaust heat from the gasoline engine can be used to heat and
compress the air tank further for high efficiency and quick acceleration by running both Air engine and gasoline during hard acceleration.
There are some companies that make Air cars that go more than 100 miles at 4000 psi. So Volt can definitely be made to go
40 miles at 10000 psi with good acceleration.
Also batteries take long time to charge where as airtank can be compressed in few min using a hi tech compressor at a gas station.
Ait tank is similar to a mechanical Ultracapacitor. Also air tank can be compressed at home using cheap night time eletricity though not
as fast as in gas station.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (11:40 am)just some additional engineering challenges.
Wipers — here the higher voltage available in the Volt might help, higher voltage motors are more efficient. But on the flip side, routing 300v around is a safety issue.
Lights — I wonder what the state of the art without going crazy on cost is. It appears to advance every few months (but not targeted at automotive application). I think we are looking at 100W for a pair of car headlights?
Defrost — the thermal mass of what’s being heated (mostly glass) will be relevant. Maybe alternative materials will help, although for front screen there are safety issues.
Unlike Detroit press I have confidence in the GM engineers.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (11:45 am)ICE units typicaly operate at a fixed RPM, however the throttle position changes as the load varies via governor control.
Similar applications are RV power plants, mobile welders,and standby power units. The life of these units is greater than motors used as a prime mover subjected to acceration, deceleration, and idling. The maintenance for such designed units should be very predictable. The design for a fixed RPM variable load, narrow power band motor will be very fuel efficient, no matter which fuel is used. (I’m an engineer)
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Feb 20th, 2008 (11:59 am)I’ve said this before, but this post makes me continue to wonder how Toyota did it with the Rav4 EV. They’re 10 years old and still on the road. I have no idea how power devices affect their batteries, but I see one in Palm Springs all the time and I can’t imagine it not having an A/C. And no ICE.
I have also wondered, and I have posted this before, What the electric output for the generator is. My backup generator at home is 5kW, 6.5 peak. What is the electrical demand of a car traveling at 75mph with the lights on once the batteries have depleted beyond 30%?
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Feb 20th, 2008 (12:14 pm)Thank you Dean! I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
#12 Talks – Great idea, wrong forum…
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Feb 20th, 2008 (12:18 pm)I’m having a feeling of deja vu… haven’t we already discussed this to death in another thread (which I think was also specifically on this subject)?
It sounds more to me GM is looking to have excuses already in place in case they slip some milestones (including the production date).
As has been said, GM has developed or licensed the technology before for their EV-1, as well as all the other automakers at the time trying to meet CA’s ZEV mandate over a decade ago. Some of the technologies have also already been developed and are being used in production conventional (ICE) vehicles because of the savings in both labor and warranty support such as electric powered windshield wipers, power steering, etc.
Remember that EV’s are over 100 year old technology, with at least some models from that far back able to get 40 miles on a charge. True they were lighter, didn’t have radio’s never mind stereo’s, power steering, etc, but they were also using 100 year old battery technology.
And Glenn, I would have loved, and still love, to have a Rav4-EV. Would have saved a ton of money by now.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (12:21 pm)It almost seems like they are just now thinking about the power draw of the auxilliary loads. They say “it’s not just the battery,” but what was the assumed power draw when they spec’d the battery? Was it sized to handle these loads, or did they base the battery on just the motor and are now playing catch up? Did they know from the begining that they would need to develop these components?
Maybe it’s just the reporting.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (12:36 pm)Just to rehash some of the solutions previously mentioned in other threads and other sites…
Lighting… L.E.D. technology is old hat. I remember my 1st LED watch and calculator in the 1970’s. It seems at least a decade since at least in my area they started replacing traffic lights with LED based ones (brighter and they last a really long time). The Tesla is using LED for at least all internal and exterior lights (I forget if they are also using them for the headlights).
Heating and cooling can easily be made more efficient by insulating the vehicle’s body. Not something that was really needed with all that waste heat from an inefficient internal combustion engine. Also not having the glass top (which I think is just for the concept), and using better thermally reflective paint (at least on the roof). I’ve also read some of the ICE to EV conversion projects where the guy was able to mount two cermanic heater bodies into the old heating system. They are apparently relatively efficient.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (12:37 pm)True, electric cars have been around over 100 years. But 100 year old battery technology isn’t that different than today’s batteries. It’s only incrementally better. The loads have increased orders of magnitudes in the same amount of time.
The problem is that electricity in a regular is virtually unlimited and in the Volt, you will be aware than any electrical usage will eat into your EV range.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (1:01 pm)Actually….the compressed air concept is not really feasible for travel IMHO.
However, I think it might have a use on a smaller scale:
> Small carbon fiber air tank and compressor for compressed air. Would compress while charged. The compressed air would be used for neumatic devices (ie: make the windshield wipers & other similar devices powered by compressed air)
> Thermal paint, they should have paint that changes color based on temperature. Cold temperature and your roof turns black. Hot temperatures and your roof turns white (or lighter color).
> Add small solar cell panel + fan & vent. one of the biggest uses of air conditioning is when it’s blasted for the first 15 minutes on a hot summer day to cool down the 120 degree inside of a vehicle. By incorporating a low power fan and vent. Hot air can be withdrawn from the vehicle and blown out. While cool air can be brought in from the outside. All powered by a small solar cell panel. This would activate based on a temperature setting. This alone could help dramatically cool vehicles sitting in parking lots during the summer sun. And thus reduce air conditioning energy costs.
(and make getting in your vehicle a whole lot more comfortable).
I’ve been trying to push this idea for a while. Hopefully, someone from GM will read this and go…wow…great idea. Customers would love entering cooler cars in the summer. And none of the Japanese auto-makers are doing this yet.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (1:06 pm)Haven’t these issues already been addressed in GM’s past? I bet the EV1 and electric S-10 would be ideal models for the Volt…
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Feb 20th, 2008 (1:06 pm)L E D ‘ S have come a long way….
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Feb 20th, 2008 (1:09 pm)quoted from the article:
“Toyota, which also has set a 2010 goal for producing a plug-in version of its Prius sedan, has the same issue. But the Japanese automaker also has the advantage of having pioneered gas-electric hybrid technology and being the world’s leading seller of hybrids.”
Does this guy even know that GM built the EV-1, or that there were all electric cars from toyota, honda, gm, all over California as part of the ZEV program?
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Feb 20th, 2008 (1:54 pm)If it’s a big problem, I’m sure Toyota would sell them a crate of electrically-powered automotive HVAC units — for a hefty fee.
All of these problems have been solved nicely on my girlfriend’s 2004 Prius. If GM wants to keep the costs reasonable and Build American, I commend that — but they’re hardly breaking new ground here. That Prius is almost 4 years old, and has 78k miles on it.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (1:55 pm)P.S. The windshield wipers, stereo, and NAV system on the Prius all work nicely, too.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (2:04 pm)If you bring up compressed air, I am compelled to post the link to what I feel is the best candidate air motor for this application:
http://www.engineair.com.au/
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Feb 20th, 2008 (2:05 pm)I think many are missing the point. The problem is not the technology solution isn’t there. It to find a vendor who is willing to mass production of the technology. The vendor unable to mass production may be a bottleneck. Some company may be having a hard time getting cash to built a manufacture plant.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (2:16 pm)Rashid, #1, good point concerning the media presenting an illustration of exploding batteries. I expect that the same folks that are behind the myth that ethanol is not a good fuel will likely begine a campaign to convince Americans that electric cars blow-up, catch fire, cause cancer, pollute the water, emit harmful radiation — you name it, it’s going to be said. We’ve already heard the one about the Prius taking more energy to build the batteries than a Yukon uses over its lifecycle, and people believe it — I still hear people talking about that one.
I’ve said it before, there is a lot of money at stake — Trillions of dollars per year in oil sales — and that’s enough to make some people do some awful things.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (2:39 pm)Yawn….well, with oil over $100 per barrell, just checked in to see how my electric windshield wipers are coming…..
About the same, I see…
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Feb 20th, 2008 (2:48 pm)Grizzley #9
“this article should be a wakeup call for the few on this site who believe that this vehicle is as simple as bolting in an electric motor and a 3-banger/gen set into a Cobalt chassis. Not quite.”
Im one of those.lol…and I still believe very simplistic views do give an insight tnto the final production cost of the volt.
The blood sweat and tears of the design team and the debate of GM Volt dot com will finally be encapsulated in a couple of computers that arent terribly expensive to produce.
Lots of work but a low production cost.
Mind you, Im beginning to believe the AC Drive isnt cheap, it may have to be added to the simplistic model.
Im sure none of this makes sense.
Ill try another cup of coffee!
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Feb 20th, 2008 (3:34 pm)In order to understand the making of the Volt , one has to have some knowledge of electricity. Someone mention about having the ICE operate at different RPMs. That would not work because the generator has to stay at a certain RPM to maintain the correct voltage. Also, it is best to have the engine run in it’s sweet spot because that’s where the engine gets it’s maximum efficiency (torque + rpm=hp).
There is another technology that could be used to add another 15% to the efficiency, but I don’t know how far along GM is with that technology.It’s call “homogeneous charge compression”.
Check the link below for more info.
http://blog.mlive.com/autoblog/2007/08/how_about_that_homogeneous_cha.html
To better capture regenerative power, the Volt could use ultra capacitors in conjunction with the batteries. GM could also put voltaic cells on the roof if need be.These are some of the things, I think, GM will do with the Volt. Just using some of my electrical knowledge.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (3:40 pm)I had an Idea how about a seperate Battery system smaller than the drive battery pack but big & powerful enough to handle the electric componients of the car IE radio wipers Hvac Lights
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Feb 20th, 2008 (4:46 pm)If they can come up with the main battery pack, they can come up with this stuff. I’m not even worried.
#21, Jason The Saj:
Good ideas. I like the white/black roof idea. Much better thatn the “glass” panel.
I am certain that there is a solar powered exhaust fan such as you suggest available from the aftermarket already. I think that you crack the window a little bit and just wedge it between the window glass and the top of the frame. Maybe not the greatest for security, but cheap and effective. I also think that I remember that some car maker (Mazda?) offered such a thing as an option several years ago. Does anyone else remember that?
Note again the solar panel mounted on the dash of the Toyota concept hybrid mini-pickup. I think that it was meant to top off the drive battery, but it could do stuff like this too.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (4:47 pm)Jack,
For a variable load, the most efficient RPM isn’t constant, although the difference may not be great enough to bother varying it. I suppose I was thinking of an alternator, in which the AC frequency would increase, not the voltage. A generator’s voltage would increase with RPM.
Bottom line, I expect the generator to meet output power requirements through more comsumption of fuel to handle higher loads without drawing on the batteries.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (4:49 pm)The whole idea is to keep the weight down. Adding more batteries just compounds the problem. Your idea is just too simple for a very complicated problem.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (4:55 pm)It would be awesome if GM’s engineers could someday figure out how to AUTOMATICALLY re-charge the Chevy Volt’s batteries wirelessly using a transmitter! I bet it happens sometime in the next 5-10 years or so. Who knows? Anything is possible these days it seems.
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=20248&ch=specialsections&sc=emerging08&pg=1
“Other means of recharging batteries without cords are emerging. Startups such as Powercast, Fulton Innovation, and WildCharge have begun marketing adapters and pads that allow consumers to wirelessly recharge cell phones, MP3 players, and other devices at home or, in some cases, in the car. But Soljačić’s technique differs from these approaches in that it might one day enable devices to recharge automatically, without the use of pads, whenever they come within range of a wireless transmitter.
The MIT work has attracted the attention of consumer-electronics companies and THE AUTO INDUSTRY.
The U.S. Department of Defense, which is funding the research, hopes it will also give soldiers a way to automatically recharge batteries. However, Soljačić remains tight-lipped about possible industry collaborations.
“In today’s battery-operated world, there are so many potential applications where this might be useful,” he says. “It’s a powerful concept.”
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Feb 20th, 2008 (4:57 pm)This whole issue is irrelevant. It’s a shame we keep seeing it crop up.
The Volt will use 8 kWh to travel 40 miles. Let’s say it takes an hour to drive 40 miles, to keep the numbers simple.
Now let’s say GM doesn’t do anything to minimize the power draw of its accessories (maybe it borrowsthem straight from its hybrid cars or something) and you spend that hour with the heater or AC on full (1000W) and the radio at literally full blast (200W) and the headlights on (100W) and let’s say SEVEN more unspecified, high-power 100W accessories to make this absolutely completely unrealistic. Maybe you’re moving your power seat in every direction simultaneously for the entire trip.
In this absurd situation, it draws 2 kW and reduces your all-electric range from one hour (40 miles) to 45 minutes (30 miles). Would this really be the end of the world?
GM seems to be making a lot of noise about nothing.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (5:20 pm)Now there is a chance to dicuss the roof, where did this glass roof idea come from?
Glass normally makes a space too hot in summer and too cold in winter, thus energy and cost required to stabilise the temperature.
I guess it is photochromic but wouldnt we be better off with a layer of polystyrene?
Or a least a translucent insulation material.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (5:22 pm)What really makes me angery is Electrical Engineers and I work with them every day so I know how they think.
I am a Senior Satellite Engineer and I have a EE degree. But when I design something for our company I dont try to re-invent everything because it adds too much time and typically you end up with something that is the same as when you started.
GM needs to go back and REUSE the EV1 plans and design its all done for them. The engineers need common sence. Just use the parts from the EV1 they work, they have been tested.
KISS is what you need to do.
GO EV1 stop trying to re-invent the wheel engineers!!
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Feb 20th, 2008 (5:52 pm)I think #28 hit the nail on the head, all of the electrically driven auxiliaries needed for public acceptance of the Volt, power steering, brakes, air, powerful speakers are available today, but the supply chain is not currently configured to produce them in high volume in America. And Toyota’s suppliers might not be willing or able to fill the void.
But the other point is that a goodly supply of resources have already been invested in the old technology and so there is an economic incentive to take years to introduce the new technology while using the design like of the old tech manufacturing facilities. Remember how long it took to get of carburetors, drum brakes, rear wheel drive, and a solid rear axle.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (6:13 pm)I wonder what they plan to do for heating. Given all the waste heat from the ICE, I wonder if they are considering the possibility of starting the ICE when heat is needed at low fuel consumption, but still operate in charge-depletion mode and use the waste heat from the ICE for heating. Just a thought.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (6:19 pm)>> The Detroit News should go back and reports news not fiction. They are not
>> in the business of judging technologies which they know nothing about.
Welcome to the hybrid world.
We’ve been dealing with that nonsense for many years now.
Being so against hybrids for so long appears to have become a genuine problem. Old habits die hard. They really need to study the changes taking place. New technology does not fit the traditional mindset. It’s not the same world they were used to anymore. Far too many make assumptions… that simply are not correct.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (6:32 pm)42pdt,
There may be enough heat from the transmission electric motor and its Variable Speed Drive in some circumstances..particularly if they focus on insulation.
And then there is Toms 200 watt stereo for supplementary heating.
It will be interesting to see what they produce.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (6:54 pm)#37 – I’ve already got the self charging thing figured out. I seriously do.
You buy the car and a charger. The dealer contracts with a local electrician to install two fairly large metal plates or wires on the ceiling of your garage. One is negative, the other is positive.
You drive your Volt into the garage, close the door and go into your house. The car computer waits until midnight (or whatever time you choose,) and at that time, it sends a probe like a power antennae up to the pad in the ceiling (two probes actually.) Because the plates are fairly large, it gives room for sloppy parking, and allows the probes to still touch the plate. If it can’t find the plate, you get a quick blast of the car horn (feed me!)
Once contact is made, the car uses a motion detector in the rear view mirror to determine if anyone is in the room. If not, it “communicates” wirelessly to the charger control (which is part of the house) to “commence a sendin’ juice.” If anyone walks into the garage, the motion detector stops current (to protect the .0000000001% who would be dumb enough to touch the probes.)
The car takes its’ charge and about 6 hours later (or at the point that one of the car doors is opened), pulls back the antennae. It is charged, and you did nothing. The devise would be easily incorporated into a garage door opener. The ladies would love it.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (6:58 pm)-6°F was the outside air temperature here this morning.
I’m well aware of how much energy it takes to keep the cabin warm. Watching the coolant temperature drop (via a digital readout from my ScanGaugeII) will reveal a harsh reality. Even with the Prius’s engine off and the heater-core blazing hot, you consume that supply of heat fast while sitting at a stoplight. Most of the time, there’s enough available. But with the engine on the cold side (or obviously, the vehicle moving), getting heat isn’t just a matter of using excess energy otherwise wasted. There is a penalty.
Volt most definitely will have a notably shorter electric-only range in the winter.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (7:20 pm)Just a thought but how would you guy’s feel about a monitor for depletion mode that turns the gen on at a very low idle type rate if you are using way to many electric gismoes at once . It would save the battery’s life expectancy and use very little fuel. And it’s not a bad idea to have the gen start every so often.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (7:27 pm)#45, John1701a,
I agree. I can’t see the heat being anything other than electric.
But the car could get a head start if it is possible to schedule the heat to turn on while the car is plugged in. I park in my garage where the temperature is at least 42°F (5.5°C) in winter. Anything lower and the heat kicks on. But I live on top of a mountain (hill for those living in Colorado) so the car has time to cool off on the way down. In winter I may need the defrosters on (both front and back). In Europe, the windshields on electric defrosters but they are invisible to the naked eye. I have never seen them here in the USA.
I’m losing my mind. I just reread this and can’t remember what my point was. Stupid me.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (7:57 pm)# 12 Talks & # 27 Jason
Compressed air could be used as a range extender as it recharges fairly quickly and you can do it safely at home. However, the best compressed air system (albeit in a wind turbine design) I have seen operates at a 70% efficiency ratio Vs. Tesla BEV at 90+% ratio (Grid to wheel). Therefore batteries are way more efficient.
# 21 Jason
I think the solar panel and fan idea would make a great aftermarket component. Could also help recharge the 12v house battery.
#28 Tom
I agree, for a range extended EV, accessory loses are not so important. I think the A/C unit is the thing to work on as that will use the most power. I don’t suppose we would consider heated seats and a cold (lukewarm?) cabin like the Tesla? I do note, though, the Tesla does not even have power steering.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (8:06 pm)# 47 Rashiid
As the battery pack will be water cooled, then in winter could not the waste heat be used for the cabin?
Also if the motor is to be water cooled this heat could be used for the cabin in winter as well. Would still need electric heaters as well for when stopped at lights etc. I assume most people would not stop at just having their seat warm.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (8:11 pm)# 44
bruce g
“42pdt,
There may be enough heat from the transmission electric motor and its Variable Speed Drive in some circumstances..particularly if they focus on insulation.
And then there is Toms 200 watt stereo for supplementary heating.
It will be interesting to see what they produce.”
=====
Bruce,
Fairly sure that the Ev-1 didn’t draw on all those sources for heat, hence it was probably never an issue. Doing so would again be opening the book on re-inventing the wheel. The Ev-1 was never intended to be sold outside of Ca. or Az. neither of which is known for harsh winters.
Again, big difference in development between the Ev-1 and Volt just considering a simple thing like heat. As mentioned the Ev-1 was never going to see a Green Bay or Buffalo winter. This affects the packs, climate control, cycling the ICE etc.
I’ll say it again. You don’t just re-invent the Ev-1 and solve your Volt problems. You can borrow, but as I’ve touched upon, it’s still more complicated than that.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (8:32 pm)Eisemann @ 40:
“GO EV1 stop trying to re-invent the wheel engineers!!”
Ditto. That is a very good point. Shouldn’t these issues have already been addressed???
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Feb 20th, 2008 (8:33 pm)Very good comments today for the most part.
I think everyone here has been learning about the engineering behind EVs for the last year and it shows… another reason to commend Lyle!
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Feb 20th, 2008 (9:52 pm)The idea about solar panels is an interesting one. A technology that may be of interest is Dye Solar Cells which are a completely different technology to the familiar silicon cells. They don’t produce power as efficiently as silicon under ideal conditions (bright sunlight) but they have an advantage in that they perform well in even low light conditions (even artificial light) which silicon does not. An even more important characteristic is that they can be “painted” on to a metallic surface so the entire car’s surface area could potentially be used for charging (even the windows as the cells can be made transparent).
Something to think about for a future generation vehicle perhaps?
http://www.dyesol.com for more info on DSCs.
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Feb 20th, 2008 (10:50 pm)My comment about waste heat from the transmission was based on a San Francisco type climate.
The other assumption is that the motor is water cooled to facilitate a compact rugged construction.
And that transmission losses are about 5%.
All of which are debateable but that is the fun of it all.
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Feb 21st, 2008 (12:35 am)I see a comment that the EV-1 was only designed to be sold in CA and AZ so heating wasn’t a real issue… but cooling definitely was…. it could be a bad assumption, but I would imagine cooling (especially in an AZ or Southern CA summer) takes just as much energy as heating. As such, I don’t see the difference in power draw.
Also I still wonder how long it will be after the 1st Volt’s come out that an owner can use more than 50% of the 16kwh battery pack (if I recall it’s 80% state of charge max, 30% state of charge when the genset comes on)? The Volt’s computer could let it drop to 20% SOC before kicking on the genset when the heating or cooling draw is higher than normal to keep the battery only range close to the 40.
By the way, did anyone else catch the news that GMAC, still 49% owned by GM, is also having financial problems, thanks to the housing market. GM better stop making excuses and get the Volt out there so they can be a leader again, and not playing catch up with their competitors.
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Feb 21st, 2008 (1:53 am)Ok…my two cents.
As an audio engineer, the stereo system is a non-issue. PERIOD. (if GM needs help with this, which I’m sure they don’t, call me.)
The electric wipers, seats, NAV, power brakes, etc, are also not a concern…(power brakes? com’on we’re talking regenative here.)
The real draw on power is HVAC (Heating Ventilation & Air Conditioning). And it will definitely have a serious effect on range and the size of the ICE/generator. In my oppinion there is no debate here. Heavy HVAC draw will simply decrease the all electric range, significantly. Pre-heating or cooling the cabin while still “plugged in” will minimize the HVAC effects of shorter tripps.
BUT…
Energy is energy…
Energy is required to heat, cool, drive, listen to tunes, make coffee, and/or flush your toilet…The question is…”where are you getting your energy from?” The Volt is getting “X” power from many sources other than GASOLINE, and it matters not whether that power is going towards the drivetrain or the HVAC. Even if the “electric range” is reduced by 20% THE TOTAL POWER CONSUMPTION IS STILL REDUCED BY AN EQUIVELANT OF 40 MILES.
What we see in this engineering concept is a natural LONG TERM move toward efficiency in all sub-systems. Even if the VOLT only gets 20 miles all electric in the bitter cold or squelching hot, it will eventually spur development of highly efficient systems to compensate.
We simply cannot afford to address all of these issues in the persuit of some “40 miles electric under all circumstances” goal.
In my humble oppinion…40 miles without gasoline in a mild environment will still change our lives…
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Feb 21st, 2008 (3:24 am)Long day yesterday… some replies…
#4 Jack – I think the specifics for the drive motor and the ice/gen are here at GM-VOLT but can’t find them just now. At the Chevrolet’s Volt page, http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/ ,they state the drive motor’s peak power is 115 kw and the generator output is 53 kw. Click on “What It Is”
#14 Dean – I agree but if the above numbers are still accurate then there will often be times when the drive motor’s kw requirements will exceed the generators output capability… or am I missing something?
On another note, in re-reading some of the information at the Chevy site referenced above, I realized I had some misconceptions about recharging. Apparently the Volt will have the capability to fully recharge the battery pack via the ice/gen while driving, and you will be able to do a “quick charge” while parked with the ice/gen running. But this info may be from the concept release and may not be accurate today. I check the Chevy site daily for changes and it hasn’t changed for months.
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Feb 21st, 2008 (6:22 am)Apparently these articles need to come with a whole lot more detailed information than they do. In every series of comments for each article it is usually 2/3’s of the post are people not understanding what they are talking about… speculating on problems that don’t exist… offering solutions to problems that don’t exist.
How about it post up the article and add a bunch of details from now on so people will get most of the information out of the article instead of wasting time in the comments section.
I am sorry that this sounds so rude, harsh and mean. It isn’t meant as an attack on anyone. We all are interested in the same thing. Just would like to see more clarity in the articles so we would not get off on so many useless tangents.
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Feb 21st, 2008 (8:22 am)>> How about it post up the article and add a bunch of details
That very same frustration you share is how the User-Guide for Prius came about.
http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-userguide.htm
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Feb 21st, 2008 (10:38 am)I have always understood that 40 miles all electric would be with all accessories off. Crawling along at 5 mph during a blizzard with everything going will impact energy consumption, electric or gas.
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Feb 21st, 2008 (2:09 pm)INFACT!
They could prob go back to the EV1 suppliers who made the parts and the orginal supplyer most likely have the tools and plans still in there arcives. Including some old tooling.
They might be able to start up production with limited cost.
Think smart think cheap!
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Feb 21st, 2008 (5:00 pm)I discovered that Toyota is looking at Dye Solar Cell Technology:
http://www.aisin.com/csr/environment/development/life.html
Here is a quote:
“Dye-sensitized solar cells were developed by taking a hint from plants’ ability to perform photosynthesis. When light is applied to photo-synthetic pigments in a plant’s leaf, electrons are produced to break down CO2 . AISIN developed synthetic pigments to generate electricity and use it for manufacturing, which results in low CO2 emissions (approximately one-tenth of silicon-type generators) as well as keeping the cost of materials and manufacturing equipment low. Further, in addition to the considerable effects that can be gained by a modest amount of sunshine, other unique characteristics of dye-sensitized solar cells include translucency, lustrous color and malleable shapes, thereby offering a wide range of applications from conventional electric generators to building materials.”
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Feb 22nd, 2008 (8:44 pm)Think different,enersha from at point of direction change that would create force derectional movement created from moving liquid from point to all points in the gemetric chape of that of a pyrmide,the lone point being the directional force point as fluid mechanics would have unlimited inverted point force at change of direction point. AT least it sounds cool.
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Feb 23rd, 2008 (12:51 am)I don’t get it…GM build the EV-1 back in the 90’s and it got around 100 miles between charges. Toyota build the Rav4-EV and it gets around 80 miles between charges.
According to GM one of the big issues is the batteries and range. They are having trouble getting it to go 40miles between charges.
Maybe they should go back and take a long hard look at their old blue prints. They need to stop dragging their feet on these cars…..
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