BYD is a Chinese automaker. Here in Detroit, they are displaying the slogan “building your dreams” as opposed to “bring your own drivetrain”. I suppose it probably stands for something else in Chinese.
Anyway I stopped by the booth and spoke to their export manager Mr. Paul Lin.
Paul explained that the car uses a lithium iron phosphate battery (hence why the call it an ‘iron’ battery). This is similar to A123′s technology but Paul advises is different. He was quick to point out that BYD is also a battery-making company, largest in the world. They also make electronic controls, so all things can be done in house.
The F6DM cut-out shown above has a 20 kWh lithium-ion pack capable of 60 miles of range and 120 kW of peak power. After 60 miles the car goes into an HEV mode, where the gas engine acts in parallel with the electric motor, as opposed to only recharging the battery as is the plan for the Volt.
Paul notes that there are already working prototypes running around China, and will produce them there this year. They plan to sell the car in the U.S. too but he admits that could be at least 3 to 5 years away. Delays include regulatory issues and lack of dealerships. The cost is low, and he said the whole battery pack and powertrain together is about $6000 USD.
On an interesting aside, when I showed Henry my GM-Volt.com card, he suggested maybe I’d like to make a website for BYD.
Anyway, I guess this thing could give the Volt a run for it’s money, so long as they don’t use lead paint.
This entry was posted on Monday, January 14th, 2008 at 2:37 pm and is filed under Battery, Competitors, General, PHEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Jan 14th, 2008 (3:03 pm)As Mr. Burns on the Simpson’s says: Excellent. If this doesn’t put a fire under GM’s behind, I don’t know what will.
Jan 14th, 2008 (3:04 pm)At $6k for the bulk of the parts, they must be using slave labor.
Either that, or they simply did an economic projection of what LiFePO4 would eventually cost at large scale production, and used that figure as a marketing tool.
Jan 14th, 2008 (3:22 pm)Lyle,
Its been a big day,thank you for keeping us informed.
Jan 14th, 2008 (3:49 pm)I presume BYD offers a battery to GM, if not, perhaps they should, GM makes it clear they are open to offers.
Jan 14th, 2008 (3:52 pm)I like BYD’s can do attitude, they will be starting production while the mules are still out on the road collecting data. LOL
Jan 14th, 2008 (4:21 pm)Will this be sold in Canada?
Jan 14th, 2008 (4:23 pm)I like the battery and the range.
The styling looks boring.
5 yrs….maybe 3!
The thing to watch out for on all these vehicles will be degradation in battery performance.
Loss of power and range over time.
Jan 14th, 2008 (4:41 pm)[quote comment="27128"]I like BYD’s can do attitude, they will be starting production while the mules are still out on the road collecting data. LOL[/quote]
That’s fine with me. Let them get data from thousands of prototypes in China, then in 3 years sell me a proven car.
Jan 14th, 2008 (4:43 pm)I don’t like the fact that the ICE is connected to the wheels. I really like the
EREV concept. However 60 miles on a charge is very respectable if it is highway miles and not 25 mph city driving only.
Lyle, if you were to do a BYD website, where will you find the time to do your real job?
Excellent reporting this week, Lyle. Thank you very much for all this information.
Jan 14th, 2008 (4:46 pm)For those of us old enough to remember, I had to laugh at picturing Lyle talking to Paul Lynde.
Jan 14th, 2008 (5:43 pm)Interesting $6000 for batteries and drive train, including 20KWh of batteries. I wonder if that is the current production cost? Even if that meant $5000 for the battery that would be a very cost effective battery.
However, my attitude is free trade with free people, and since unions are massively restricted in China this car does not meet my criteria no matter how cheap it is.
Jan 14th, 2008 (5:45 pm)>>At $6k for the bulk of the parts, they must be using slave labor.
Huh ? If they are using a asynchronous motor i dont see why it would be more expensive than that. Power electronics and the ACIM motors really dont cost that much, materials and parts-wise.
And the fundamental selling point of LiFEPo4, apart from its inherent safety has always been potential for low cost, due to no expensive bulk materials going in. Being chinese manufacturer, they know all about optimizing costs.
Jan 14th, 2008 (6:42 pm)[quote comment="27151"]
However, my attitude is free trade with free people, and since unions are massively restricted in China this car does not meet my criteria no matter how cheap it is.[/quote]
Ditto. Not to mention the safety and reliability issues that would inevitably arise with a Chinese car.
Jan 14th, 2008 (6:50 pm)As long as it’s more crashworthy than that other Chinese car the Germans tested… and flunked spectacularly.
The Chinese are good at making cheap things. And they are just that – cheap things.
Now, if they make a car like that, and it gets at least a four star crash rating (all of them)and has a nice warranty, they may be able to sell ‘em here.
I doubt I’d buy one, tho.
Jan 14th, 2008 (6:58 pm)Welll…
We used to say things like that about the japanese as well…. made great cameras but their cars are made from recycled tin cans.
Probably true but it didnt last long..
Jan 14th, 2008 (7:25 pm)… and the same thing was being said about Korean cars (Hyundai and Kia) even more recently …
I’d be curious to see how long the warranty is for, as the Spark EV Zotye (which is also made in China) will be offered with only a two year warranty!
http://www.spark-ev.com/zotye.html
Jan 14th, 2008 (9:15 pm)[quote comment="27138"]The F6DM has a 20 kWh lithium-ion pack capable of 60 miles of range and 120 kW of peak power…there are already working prototypes running around China…”[/quote]
Will someone please tell Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz that the Chinese are making them look like a**holes.
Jan 14th, 2008 (9:17 pm)Interesting car…let’s not forget about the Miles Javlon which is due out THIS YEAR, and is about $30,000 with a range of 150 miles all electric. That is a serious contender. GM had better keep moving.
Jan 14th, 2008 (9:21 pm)China is trying to do with EVs exactly what the Japanese did with small cars – become leaders by capturing market share with cheaper products in an emerging segment. BYD is the world’s largest battery maker. They already have the economies of scale. I have no doubt that that really is the price*. What they do not have is car manufacturing expertise. The question is if they can develop it.
It seems unlikely that BYD, with no dealership structure, and a host of other challenges, will be breaking into the US market before the Volt is released, it’ll be a few years anyway, but that probably is not what gives GM the willies about this product. China is a big consumer prize itself – http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8U563V81.htm
“China cruised past Japan in 2006 to snatch the title of the world’s No. 2 auto market, with total sales of 7.2 million vehicles — including trucks and buses — and production of 7.3 million.
China’s domestic passenger car sales continue to be dominated by foreign automakers … General Motors Corp., through its passenger car joint venture, Shanghai General Motors Corp., sold 479,427 vehicles in China in 2007, up 16.9 percent, the company said.”
The prospect of BYD hurting them there sooner seems more likely.
*And just where do you think A123 is going to make their batteries?
Jan 14th, 2008 (10:06 pm)Low blow with the lead paint reference! LOL
Jan 14th, 2008 (10:19 pm)Not all iron-based lithium batteries are created equal. I can’t speak for the quality of this battery pack, but one thing’s for sure…there is only one A123, and GM might get their batteries from A123. So this may be a very important advantage for the Volt. But we shall see…this is a promising car in a way.
Jan 14th, 2008 (10:25 pm)I pegged the BYD plug-in as the biggest challenge to GM (and all the other Japanese/Western automakers) when I fist
learned of it – a low purchase price and
relatively cheap batteries (as I recall, the
batteries need replacement at something like 150K miles and cost $2500).
Jan 14th, 2008 (11:22 pm)What happened to James. He was always talking about BYD.
Jan 15th, 2008 (2:19 am)News of this vehicle is old news… and other reports from the Detroit show indicated it’s likely this vehicle may never make it to the US market… so this is quite a scoop if they have reversed themselves on that.
Several things though… 1st is that from other press I had been led to believe they really didn’t have or plan to have the capacity to produce that many more vehicles than they could sell domestically (in China) since demand there is so high. Even if they exported to the US, how many units/year? GM is planning at least 60,000 Volts/year.
2nd, the price you hear is comparing apples to oranges. In addition the Chinese currency is being artifically kept low against the US$ and not floating on the free market. I believe our government wants to see it float though the Chinese don’t (want to keep flooding our market with cheap imports). If things change that could have a big effect on price.
3rd, also speaking on price, I wouldn’t be surprised if to meet US safety standards it added to the price as well.
Then again, they say we (the US) said years ago that the Japanese would never make inroads into the US.
Jan 15th, 2008 (5:57 am)I think the Chinese will introduce a cost effective EV to the US in the next couple of years and it will have an effect out of proportion to the numbers sold.
I dont know what Toyota or GM will do about it.
Jan 15th, 2008 (4:13 pm)what about all the buzz about ‘splitting’ water to HHO gas as an alternative to electric hybrids?
does the technology (see http://www.preignitioncc.com/nw/index.htm ) work?
If so, why no one is really promoting it?…
Jan 15th, 2008 (5:37 pm)Sam, wrong forum for discussing, and it’s already been discussed under other threads. No need to give perpertual motion machines any more attention.
Jan 15th, 2008 (8:28 pm)Like Rashiid Amul, I don’t like that it is a parallel hybrid. I suppose it’s great for aftermarket companies. Lots of parts to wear out and replace.
I’d prefer pure electric but I’d settle for a serial hybrid a la Volt.
Jan 16th, 2008 (7:39 am)More details about it here: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/01/byd-auto-introd.html#more
It seems to be an serial EREV and a parallel hybrid to some degree … “… actually offers three modes of operation: full battery-powered EV mode driving its 75 kW, 400 Nm motor; series-hybrid mode, in which a 50 kW, 1.0-liter engine drives a generator as a range-extender; and parallel hybrid mode, in which the engine and motor both provide propulsive power.
The FD6M starts out in EV mode. At medium speed it will shift to range-extending series hybrid mode, and at high speed it will shift to full parallel mode. In addition to the 100 km of EV range, the HEV modes add another 330 km of range, for a total vehicle range of 430 km (267 miles).”
The design doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Jan 16th, 2008 (5:35 pm)I just ran into another article that gives more info on pricing ….
The price in the Chinese market is estimated to be $20,000 and $30,000 …. which is high end for the Chinese market when the average annual income in China is a small fraction of that price.
The article is at http://tinyurl.com/yq7rsa
Oct 12th, 2008 (8:31 am)Interesting how arrogantly some writers on this board belittle the Chinese PHEVs. Sounds like the articles about Japanese cars in the 70s… The problem is that the learning curve seems to be radically faster in China than in Detroit. While Detroit is still comfortable to peddle pickups to Mid Western drivers who need 8 cylinders and 300hp to move their 300 pound bodies, their bottle of Jack Daniels and their rack of shot guns in their trucks, the rest of the world is moving on. If Detroit is not waking up rapidly and makes quickly many many reliable PHEV models like the Volt at competitive prices it will be too late. A sticker “Made with pride in America” wont cut it….. If you think my assessment is wrong, let’s discuss this in 5 years …
Vivifiant, Ohio
Dec 15th, 2008 (10:10 am)hey it’s for sale today in China for $22,000.
GM better hope BYD stumbles over US safety requirements.
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSSEO16159320081215
An Oregonian already has the rights to import Nissan electrics and wants to import the BYD
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/11/kulongoski_lobbies_to_bring_ch.html
Dec 15th, 2008 (10:50 am)of course I’m an idiot and “mis-comprehended” shall we say? the role of Mr. Kulongoski in Oregon? but that’s no reflection on the informative article!