Cadillac Provoq Fuel Cell E-Flex Concept
GM has just revealed the Cadillac Provoq, a 4 door crossover concept, which uses the E-Flex platform with a hydrogen fuel-cell range extender.
It runs on GM’s svelte 5th-generation hydrogen fuel cell stack married to an E-Flex propulsion system, which is the all-electric powertrain powered by a large rechargeable lithium-ion battery pack. It is a zero-emissions vehicle.
The vehicle is designed to go 20 miles on a charge with an additional 280 miles of range provided by two hydrogen tanks each capable of holding 3 kg of the compressed gas. No gasoline here.
This one is all-wheel drive, with a pair of 40 kW rear wheel hub motors and a 70 kW front coaxial motor, and goes 0 to 60 in 8.5 secs.
Per GM VP of R&D Larry Burns, “This is proof that alternate fuels and advanced technologies create even greater opportunities to satisfy the luxury buyer.”
Additional cool stuff included: solar panel in the roof for small electricals, front grille that closes at highway speeds to reduce drag, stylish double front bumper charging ports, uncompromising interior, and sleek unmistakable Cadillac exterior.
Read all the details by clicking below.
For release: Jan. 8, 2008, 12:01 a.m. EST
CADILLAC PROVOQ FUEL CELL CONCEPT DELIVERS CLEAN, PETROLEUM-FREE PERFORMANCE AND SIGNATURE DESIGN
LAS VEGAS – Cadillac unveils a new vision for the future of luxury transportation with the innovative Provoq fuel cell concept – a hydrogen fuel cell crossover vehicle that continues GM’s commitment to displace petroleum through advanced technology.
The Cadillac Provoq fuel cell concept is the latest example of GM’s groundbreaking E-Flex propulsion system, combining the new fifth-generation fuel cell system and a lithium-ion battery to produce an electrically driven vehicle that uses no petroleum and has no emission other than water. The concept’s fifth-generation fuel cell technology is half the size of its predecessor, yet it has been developed to produce more power and performance.
“Cadillac is a natural fit for GM’s next step in developing the E-Flex platform,” says Jim Taylor, Cadillac general manager. “Cadillac, at its very essence, is about premium luxury, design and technology, so it’s fitting that Cadillac would be propelled by the most elegant solution. This signals Cadillac’s intent to lead the industry with alternative-fuel technology.”
Fuel-cell variant of the E-Flex system
The concept can drive 300 miles (483 km) on a single fill of hydrogen – with 280 miles (450 km) from hydrogen and 20 miles (32 km) on pure, battery electric energy.
A pair of 10,000 psi (700 bar) composite storage tanks beneath the rear cargo floor hold 13.2 pounds (6 kg) of hydrogen to feed the fuel cell stack, located under the hood. There, hydrogen mixes with oxygen to generate electricity – up to 88 kW continuous power. A lithium-ion battery pack can store up to a total of 9kWh of electrical energy and also provides a peak of 60 kW of power for additional performance.
The electricity generated by the fuel cell is distributed to a 70 kW co-axial drive system for the front wheels and individual, 40 kW wheel hub motors on the rear wheels, giving the Cadillac Provoq its all-wheel-drive traction and great driving dynamics. Its 0-60 mph (approximately 100 km/h) speed of 8.5 seconds is a more than 30-percent improvement over the previous-generation fuel cell system and with instantaneous torque to the wheels, it feels even faster. Provoq has a top speed of 100 mph (160 km/h).
“This is a vision of what comes next – a fuel cell electric vehicle that delivers the driving characteristics Cadillac customers want and allowing them to do it without using a single drop of petroleum, while emitting only water vapor,” said Larry Burns, GM vice president for research and development. “This is proof that alternate fuels and advanced technologies create even greater opportunities to satisfy the luxury buyer.”
Key features
With sleek, signature Cadillac bodywork, the Provoq concept redefines luxury crossovers, offering uncompromising passenger and cargo space to match its performance and cruising range. Additional vehicle features include:
· Solar panel integrated in the roof to help power onboard accessories, such as the interior lights, audio system and more
· Brake-by-wire technology
· Front grille louvers that close at highway speed to enhance aerodynamics, and open at low speed to provide maximum cooling to the fuel cell stack
Purposefully dynamic design
The Provoq has a sleek, athletic shape that builds on the second generation of Cadillac’s design renaissance, led by the 2008 CTS, with dynamic and purposeful features that support the hydrogen fuel cell powertrain and contribute to the vehicle’s overall efficiency.
“All the people- and cargo-carrying capability customers expect in crossovers and SUVs is available in the Provoq, along with the premium attributes expected in a Cadillac,” said Ed Welburn, vice president, Global Design.
Highlights include:
· Active front grille, with grille louvers that open when the fuel cell stack requires cooling
· Full underbody aerodynamic cover
· Left- and right-hand charging ports incorporated in stylish front fender vents
· Flush door handles that feature push-to-release operation
· Wind tunnel-shaped outside mirrors with integral turn signals
· Center high-mounted rear stop lamp incorporated into full-width, wraparound spoiler
· Signature vertical taillamps with subtle fin design
· Side glass mounted flush with pillars
· Wheels with clear-covered space between the spokes, creating a sleeker profile while maintaining Cadillac’s signature bold wheel design
· Low-drag roof rack
“From the strong, shield grille and vertical headlamps to the crisp body lines, the Provoq is instantly recognizable as a contemporary Cadillac,” said Hoon Kim, exterior lead designer. “Like the new CTS, it is bold and expressive, but there is enhanced shape between the edges – it’s a new proportion for crossovers, with a fast, almost coupe-like rear.
“Everything about the vehicle reinforces the notion that great style and environmentally conscious transportation can go hand in hand,” said Kim. “We didn’t sacrifice proportion, stance or Cadillac’s iconic design cues; we used them to support the efficiency of the vehicle.
“They are the features customers expect,” he said. “The adaptability of the E-Flex architecture enabled the designers to create a great-looking vehicle, regardless of its alternative-fuel powertrain.”
Kim points to the fender-mounted charge ports as prime example. They allow overnight, plug-in charging that extends the driving range. The ports have a satin-chrome appearance that incorporates an amber light to indicate the system is charging and a green light to indicate when charging is completed.
“The ports are functional, but rather than hide them, they are design elements of the Provoq,” he said. “Sweeping body lines that culminate at the top and bottom edges of the ports suggest forward thrust, even when the vehicle is stationary.”
The vertical, neon-lit taillamps blend style with functionality, too, as their finned shape was designed to make the Provoq as aerodynamically efficient as possible.
Indeed, the Provoq has short overhangs and a sporty ride height that is complemented by large, 21-inch wheels.
The wheels are wrapped in custom Michelin tires incorporating Green-X technology. These low-rolling resistance tires feature a tread pattern that mimics the “H20” notation for water.
The tire designers and engineers at Michelin North America enthusiastically accepted GM’s challenge to create a custom low-rolling resistance tire to complement the energy efficiency and reduced environmental footprint of the Cadillac Provoq. During the past 15 years, the tire maker has developed four generations of Michelin green energy-saving tires, and the team’s no-compromises approach to the project helped reduce the Provoq’s overall fuel consumption without sacrificing road performance, grip and safety.
When used in conjunction with the other energy-efficient solutions featured on the Cadillac Provoq, the benefits of Michelin green energy-saving tires include:
· A reduction in the consumer’s overall cost of ownership
· An extended vehicle range through a more efficient use of on-board energy and its storage capacity
· A reduction of vehicle impact on the environment through lower CO2 and particulate emissions.
Uncompromising interior
Like the exterior, the Provoq’s interior blends style with function. It seats five and incorporates the comfort, convenience and infotainment features Cadillac customers seek. Most importantly, the fuel cell powertrain does not intrude on passenger or cargo room.
The hydrogen fuel tanks are mounted beneath the cargo floor, with the storage batteries located at the center of the chassis. The fuel cell stack is located under the hood, giving the Provoq the interior layout of a conventional crossover – including a full cargo area and a 60/40-split folding rear seat.
“The interior is roomy, well-equipped and offers the space people want in a crossover,” said Matt Erdey, interior lead designer. “There are no compromises inside the Provoq to accommodate the fuel cell powertrain and fuel tanks – a factor that proves the technology and real-world feasibility are growing closer together.”
There may not be compromising reminders of the powertrain in the interior, but the Provoq carries the instantly identifiable hallmarks of a contemporary Cadillac interior, with an expressive, well-crafted design.
“It picks up the cues, refinement and attention to detail of the new CTS and takes them to the next level,” said Erdey. “A contrasting color scheme, extensive use of ambient lighting technology and elements such as cut-and-sewn, hand-wrapped leather with French seams are elements seen in current Cadillac models, but they are amplified in the Provoq. “
The interior has a contrasting, dark gray and light gray color scheme, with chrome and satin-chrome accents throughout. Ambient lighting extends across the instrument panel and into the door panels, as well as the foot wells, sills and under the seats.
A unique instrument cluster with large, reconfigurable LCD displays offers a multitude of vehicle information readouts, including fuel cell information and vehicle performance. Like the CTS, the Provoq has a prominent center stack that houses the audio and climate systems, as well as a navigation system that rises out of the top of the instrument panel. Also like the CTS, there is an integrated hard drive that stores navigation maps, thousands of songs and more.
Between the front bucket seats is a large center console with a fully enclosed storage compartment that is home to ports for USB-connected devices and other electronics. The console also has a cell phone holder with built-in Bluetooth and inductive charging. The compact shifting mechanism on the console uses shift-by-wire technology to engage the gears, resulting in more storage space within the console.
A variety of recycled and recyclable materials were used, as well. Highlights include:
· The headliner is wrapped in a fully recyclable soy-based material
· The carpet is made of recycled polyester and jute
· Leather used to cover the seats and instrumental panel is free of harmful chemicals
· Xorel material used on the door panels and instrument panel; treated to perform as a carbon-fiber-type material
· Chrome trim made with less-harmful materials
The earth-friendly interior components blend seamlessly with the more conventional materials inside the Provoq, enhancing the vehicle’s integrated, customer-focused environment. The same goes for the cargo area, which features an auxiliary power outlet and a load floor that is level with the hatch opening.
“The integration of the features and technology is remarkable,” said Erdey. “If you didn’t know there was a hydrogen fuel cell stack under the hood, you’d never know it was anything but a roomy, functional crossover.”
Popularity: 6%
(53 votes, average: 4.42 out of 5) 
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January 8th, 2008 at 12:07 am
I would buy one of these in a heart beat with a gas e-flex engine instead of a fuel cell. I will not consider a fuel cell until I can buy hydrogen at my local gas station.
Cool looking car!!!
January 8th, 2008 at 12:12 am
I don’t usually go for SUVs (or CUVs), but that is a good looking car.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:14 am
more pictures here: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/ces-2008-cadillac-provoq-fuel-cell-concept-revealed/
January 8th, 2008 at 12:19 am
They put a solar panel on it and USB ports inside. Maybe they have been reading some of the many posts on this site.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:26 am
At least they’re keeping it plug-in. The original hydrogen Volt concept didn’t have that.
I don’t mind hydrogen as a range extender. It would be great for the local air quality. But given the cost delta I just don’t see it making a difference in the real world anytime soon. Maybe they will be simple and cheap enough eventually that it does.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:31 am
ps — Luxury vehicles used to be judged by how quiet they were. A plug-in with a fuel cell range extender will certainly be quiet.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Pretty neat.
Getting closer to my dream vehicle … a Saturn Outlook that uses the E-Flex architecture (with a regular generator, not fuel cells) to drive all four wheels.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:20 am
Check out the tail lights!
Could Cadillac be bringing back fins?!?
January 8th, 2008 at 5:28 am
It should be put into development in parallel with the Volt and it’s generator/battery power source so that it can be produced 2010-11. This should allow more resources to be devoted to the development of “practical” e-flex technology. The Provoq should have tremendous demand.
Check out the announcement on Maxwell’s site http://www.maxwell.com/news-events/release.asp?PRID=262. I hope their not jumping the gun.
January 8th, 2008 at 6:15 am
20 miles…weak.
Great looking car though. I would expect nothing less from Cadillac (except that hideous Catera they put out years back).
Trading one pumping station for another is not saving me any time. Plugging in at home does.
January 8th, 2008 at 7:04 am
“It runs on GM’s svelte 5th-generation hydrogen fuel cell stack”
Once again im wondering .. WDYM, 5th generation ? Where are the other generations to be seen ? And where can i buy them ?
January 8th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Yea. Another Fuel cell car. Keep them coming. Now, where can I buy hydrogen?
Sorry guys, this is a stupid car for today.
It does have some cool stuff, but the fuel cell has to go. To me, the Volt makes so much sense, I think all cars should be made like it. Fuel cells can wait another decade or two or at least until the infrastructure is built.
January 8th, 2008 at 7:49 am
[quote comment="25186"]I would buy one of these in a heart beat with a gas e-flex engine instead of a fuel cell. I will not consider a fuel cell until I can buy hydrogen at my local gas station.
Cool looking car!!![/quote]
I agree! 20 miles electric…weak. 300 miles total w/o infrastructure for refueling on trip…very weak.
It is a cool looking car but I don’t understand the exterior design at all. We hear all those sharp edges are NOT good for the Volt mileage. But, it is OK with the Provoq. Perhaps someone can explain that to me.
January 8th, 2008 at 7:54 am
I’ll go for anything that’s:
1) Renewable
2) Efficient
3) Cost effective
Hydrogen is usually made from natural gas.
The efficiencies of storing and converting hydrogen are abysmal.
The cost of fuel cells and hydrogen infrastructure is astronomical.
Fails on all 3 counts.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:01 am
Urban vehicles must be clean and get maximum miles per energy unit. The energy source does not matter. It is the maximum miles per unit that does matter.
Fuel cells are still not proven in cold climates. Dumping water out the tail pipe in a cold climate leads to ice on the roads.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Good looking vehicle, BUT HYDROGEN DOES NOT FLY because 1) the infrastructure isn’t here and 2) it’s too darned expensive. Why not release an EV like the ZAP-X crossover? I’d get excited about that. Not this.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:18 am
…and another thing. What’s up with the step backwards with the mere 20 miles all electric range? Enthusiasts for the Volt, in my opinion, should discourage this vehicle, as GM can do better.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Hydrogen? no thanks. Go volt.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Yawn… your tax money at work.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Enough about Hydrogen, just another politically powered green-washing machine like ethanol that demands an infrastructure revamp that would do more harm than good. Other than that this car is slick! Front vents that close at highway speeds to reduce drag… so simple yet so ingenious, when can I see this on production cars?
January 8th, 2008 at 8:44 am
I agree with Tim (18)and with Noel on the last thread: Enough of concepts and enough of green flag waving and teasing us with glimpses of a future that we know can and should be with us today
I was in Frankfurt this weekend. In my hotel room I caught the end of a German TV advert for the Flextreme - all flowers and daisies filling the air - very nice, except that we have been told on this site that it won’t be built, so why bother advertising it?
As a (relevant) aside, the French will be DELIVERING 1,000 of their Cleanova EREVS this year, having been ROAD testing since 2006. I saw the road-going vehicle (NOT a concept) myself at LAST year’s Geneva motor show - Li-Ion pack and all - I was shown around by an engineer. See:
http://www.cleanova.com/public/sve/
GM are only just in receipt of their 2nd bench testing experimental battery pack. The French are demonstrably YEARS ahead of this stage.
I have to chuckle when GM (plus one or two blinkered regulars on this forum) croon about how Detroit and the Volt lead the way with this technology, when the facts tell a different story.
While it is good news that GM are catching up in this area and will (hopefully) eventually overtake by supplying EREVs with mass appeal, they are definitely not the first company doing this and they will be at least 2 years behind the French.
This is all because GM axed its EV programme. The French Heuliez factory which produced my Citroen EV in the 1990s is the same one building the Cleanova now. The difference is that the French did not stand still - vive la difference!
Credit where credit is due, messieurs
January 8th, 2008 at 8:44 am
Don’t worry. This car will get a normal ICE engine.
The problem is, there is lot of government money for fuel cells.
So, you design a fuel cell car, then at the last moment you switch the fuel cells for an ICE.
In this, the fuel cell money is diverted to PHEV’s.
Lucas
January 8th, 2008 at 8:52 am
This car really makes no sense. A range-extender is ment to come on places where you can not rely on new infrastructure.
So, fuel-cells for range-extender makes no sense.
Furthermore, fuel-cells are very expensive. By using it as range-extender you don’t utilize a very expensive component.
It is very obvious, that this car is ment to get government fuel cell money for PHEV.
Lucas
January 8th, 2008 at 9:02 am
If anyone has doubts about hydrogen check out the Honda home energy station.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Enough with the hydrogen pipe dream. I wish these US car companies (and Honda) would concentrate on the next ten years rather than fifty years from now. I dont want to see oil companies retain control of the US fuel market by “hyping” hydrogen like they currently control oil. Let the de-centralized state based electric companies fuel the future, not the oil companies. Im tired of my fuel dollars going countries outside of the US. Demand a plug in, or cripple the world’s economy by keeping hold of whatever car you currently own.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Lucas #21 “The problem is, there is lot of government money for fuel cells.”
This is a BAD and dangerous paradigm!
The REAL TRUTH is that the government has NO money!! It’s YOUR money that YOU earned and YOU should spend how YOU see fit. They only want you to think it’s theirs and they promote this paradigm so foolish people will freely let them steal it so they can use it to buy “support” from their special interest contributors like big energy. Hello, H2 comes from ‘Natural” gas and even then electric cars are 4X MORE efficient!
Only the ignorant, foolish or corrupt want H2 cars.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:31 am
At the Consumer Electronics Show, GM also announced that they were working on cars that drove themselves, and that they’d be ready in 10 years.
Why was there no mention of the Volt at the Consumer Electronics Show?
January 8th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Hydrogen might be a suitable range extender in the long term, assuming we want eventually to be completely free of gasoline. However, it is a bit premature just now.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Since physics is not negotiable by committee this is just another handsome concept car that may never make it to market with a fuel cell. Case in point, Ballard Power Systems Inc. has been the leader in fuel cell technology for decades. They’ve finally come to the same conclusion as my first sentence. Their H2 department is up for sale to the highest OEM bidder.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:53 am
I assume that GM will offer some of the options mentioned for this vehicle on the Volt.
For example
* Solar panel integrated in the roof to help power onboard accessories.
* Brake-by-wire technology.
* Front grille louvers that close at highway speed to enhance aerodynamics.
And I assume Cadillac will convert this prototype to a Volt style powertrain with ICE generator, and 18 kwh batteries to support a 40 mile range before it goes production.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Would everyone quit beating up on GM. They are doing one hell of a job. Technology like this MUST precede it’s feasibility, if it does not, when it becomes feasible, they will be behind the curve. Everyone knows 20 miles all electric is “weak”, if you want to be part of this design process, how about 20 miles is “a GREAT start” I feel so honored to be invited to participate through this forum. No other company is doing this. I think I am going to go out and buy some GM stock, and when the product becomes available, I will be among the first in the showroom.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I also support gasoline or diesel for the generator, just so this can get to market faster, and appeal to more people sooner. If it doesn’t share powertrain with the VOLT I personally consider this a PR stunt.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:07 am
GM - Do NOT let this vehicle detract any engineering time or effort from the Volt!!
January 8th, 2008 at 10:08 am
You are 100% correct 20 miles is a great start! It will only get better. The only other thing I can say is DON’T SELL OUT TO THE BIG OIL COMPANYS. The oil companies will buy the technology and burn it. They did it in the 70’s and 80’s with thermal solar.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:24 am
20 miles might be a great start, but the fuel cell is stupid.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:32 am
#23 Mike Treehugger:
[quote comment="25257"]If anyone has doubts about hydrogen check out the Honda home energy station.[/quote]
I got pretty excited about the home hydrogen station about a year ago. I read several articles about it but came to the conclusion that it will be a long time before it is feasible for the following reasons:
1. The cost of the station installed would be about $10,000.
2. I doubt any municipality would allow a home hydrogen station due to safety risk. People still think of the Hindenburg. I doubt the government would want to go to everyone’s house on a periodic basis to inspect the station like they currently do at gas stations.
3. The oil companies would lobby heavily to prevent the home hydrogen stations.
It is a good idea to get around the infrastructure issue but is not practical. If say one hundred million people in the U.S. installed the stations at their homes and the cost was $10,000 each then the total cost to everyone would be one trillion dollars. Why do this when electricity is already available at home. Yes …Utilities would have to invest a lot to produce the electricity for the cars but I am sure it would be a lot cheaper than everyone buying their own station.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Ok, the solar panels are pretty cool, but ultimately this is like GM rolling out a concept for a flying car. Do they think we are fools?
January 8th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Hey Pete K,
if 1,000 of their Cleanova EREVS is what 3x the price of gasoline compared to the US gets me, no thanks.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:36 am
I am an Electric kind of Guy … wanting a car I can power from my Solar Panels on my House roof. I do not have Hydrogen coming out of the ground and want the highest efficiency I can get … not converting my KWH to H to then put in the car to convert again to KWH to turn the wheels. Lets KEEP IT SIMPLE … and Efficient … and let me get one soon! My 7000 watts of
Photo Voltaics are putting out the power now … way more than I use in the house! Also, we need to stop the carbon dioxide going into the air NOW.
As to styling … don’t waste your time on me with worries there. I want efficient, earth friendly transportation. I dont give a
crap about PRESTIGUE design and the Caddy name. GET ME AN EARTH SAVING CAR…NOW.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:37 am
The problem with fuel cells is that the infrastructure for refueling does not exist. Until every gas station can provide this service (which may take 20 years or longer to implement), fuel cells are just not viable.
General Motors and other automobile manufacturers really need to concentrate their efforts on conventional hybrid-electric vehicles with plug-in capability. That technology is here now, and requires no changes to the infrastructure.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:38 am
John Schupp,
I agree with you totally. It is a great start, what I tire of is the following:
Well I would only buy it if….
Give me a break!
January 8th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Hey Alan Thompson,
I agree, “physics is not negotiable by committee.” Nor is intelligence, Ballard’s auto fuel cell division was purchased by Ford and Daimler. Ballard is concentrating their efforts on the forklift market which is more profitable. GO figure…
January 8th, 2008 at 10:46 am
John Schupp - the problem is that fuel cell technology is no where near ready for prime time. Heck it’s not even out of the lab yet and won’t be anytime soon.
Also, fuel cell technology (or the idea of it) has been used as a tool of sorts to delay the automobile industry moving away from the ICE. Fuel cell vehicles have been “10 years away from the showroom” for more than three decades and they are still no where near ready.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:47 am
#30 John Schupp:
[quote comment="25267"]Would everyone quit beating up on GM. They are doing one hell of a job. Technology like this MUST precede it’s feasibility, if it does not, when it becomes feasible, they will be behind the curve. Everyone knows 20 miles all electric is “weak”, if you want to be part of this design process, how about 20 miles is “a GREAT start” I feel so honored to be invited to participate through this forum. No other company is doing this. I think I am going to go out and buy some GM stock, and when the product becomes available, I will be among the first in the showroom.[/quote]
I believe most people posting hear would agree with you that GM is doing a hell of a job. I don’t believe they are beating up GM …they are only providing constructive critisim that hydrogen is currently not feasible. They don’t want GM to loose their focus on getting the Volt to market.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Kind of a lame performance - it’s really a hydrogen car with 20 miles of battery range.
I’d like to think that GM is more serious about getting on the bandwagon, but there’s more that could and should be done. Enough of the concept vehicles, let’s crank up production.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Good to read so many Volt enthusiast’s have their heads firmly attached regarding the hydrogen issue.
Yes big oil prefers that fuel source. It takes an exponential amount of fossil fuel to produce the stuff.
Yes Government is handing out a lot of $$ towards this technology. Big oil has a lot of influence on Government. Invading oil rich countries like Iraq is a sad, but graphic example of that.
General Motors- please keep going on with the Volt. Hydrogen is a non-starter. Over time this truth will become evident but those who desire a clean World are getting impatient!
January 8th, 2008 at 11:16 am
I think a lot of people just skipped over the obvious, this is yet another GM brand with E-flex being readied fore production! That makes 4 I believe ?( If the Saturn surprise in Detroit is an E-flex as we hope.)
As for the 20 miles electric I don’t think it is as big a deal breaker for Cadillac drivers like the gas mileage on them now is not.If you ask me the Provoq looks closer to a production car than the Volt did last year. Gm should be able to swap the “fool cell” for an ICE and roll this out behind the volt.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:22 am
I agree… I am ready to see some production.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:25 am
I don’t believe 20 miles is a “great start” when you already have another concept capable of getting double that.
20 miles is a “start”. 40 miles is a “great start.”
That’s just my $0.02.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Has GM considered going into the retail hydrogen business?
GM already has the infrastructure in place at the dealerships. All you have to do is add the refueling capabilities. This is a simple fix for a complex problem, but it works well with GM’s plan to reduce dependency on Big Oil.
A+ for the Provoq. This is a much improved concept and styling of what Cadillac should be all about. Now puh-lease dump the ugh-ly CRX.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Tad, #31:
PR stunt? You think so? Naaaah, GM wouldn’t do that. Would they?
Matt 986, #32:
100%, absolutely, totally, dead right.
As so many, including Mr. Lutz, have said before, this is an existential race to recapture the technical high ground before Toyota, et al, get there first. Every distraction from the Volt is a step in the wrong direction.
Get the !@#$%^ Volt out in the marketplace, work the bugs out of it through masochistic first adopters like us, and then fool around with Cadillac, fuel cell, SUV versions, for crying out loud.
I would offer a comment on fuel cells, but you guys have aleady said everything there is to say, and much better than I could. Well done.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:31 am
I don’t think 20 miles is a good start. It’s half of what the Volt gets. I also think the people who could afford to buy it wouldn’t bother to even plug it in for a twenty mile range. They would just fill it with gas (hydrogen…lol) and drive it with the motor constantly running.
Anyway, it’s just a concept at this point.Hopefully they’ll make improvements before they start building them.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Fuel cells are one of the WORST ideas for automobiles. A hydrogen fuel cell car requires THREE times as much energy from the source (electrical power station) as a pure electrical vehicle (like the Chevy Volt). So if you want fuel cell cars, then you better start building lots of new power stations. And what powers them? (coal, oil, natural gas) So much for “zero” pollution.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:41 am
It was my understanding that the whole idea behind e-flex was to make it easy to change the way the on-board electricity is generated - i.e., by fuel cell, ICE, etc. So it seems like you should be able to order whichever system you want. Or did I miss something?
January 8th, 2008 at 11:47 am
I suspect this is not the welcoming to this concept GM wanted… It’s nice the little guys here are screaming for “Volt or bust.”
January 8th, 2008 at 11:49 am
I’m actually with John @30 - Why is it that so many posters on here can bash GM for being behind for killing their EV program a decade ago, than turn around and scream at them to kill the H2 program?
While I’m all for keeping the Volt as priority #1 (and #2 and #3, etc…), GM is a big company, and it makes perfect sense for them to at least keep one division looking into the technology. All it takes is one breakthrough somewhere down the road, and this could go from “never happening” to “coming next year” - and 15 years from now, I’d rather not then be yelling at GM for being so short sighted for killing their H2 program, putting them behind Honda, for example…
January 8th, 2008 at 11:51 am
A huge amount of hydrogen is already required to turn crude oil into gasoline. Don’t act like drilling for oil is incredibly clean and efficient and hydrogen is not.
Aside from energy diversity, fuel cells have a number of other advantages: Reduced emissions in population centers, reduced noise pollution, and fast recharge — due to the laws of physics, it is prohibitive for vehicles to stop on the highway and recharge batteries in a short amount of time that can taken you hundreds of miles.
Whenever hydrogen is mentioned around here these gangs pop up to start bullying anyone who has an open mind about it. Reminds me of how the Atkins Diet cultists constantly evangelized that carbs were evil.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:53 am
I did a little research on the Honda deal. Honda has a natural gas car that can be purchased right now with a home refueling station if you have natural gas in you home.
It is my understanding that the FCX will also use natural gas ? I called the manfacturing company for the home refueling station . They were not very polite but did tell me that the system cannot be bought, It
is only leased and has to be installed by them.I figured up the lease and expense of the natural gas and again we, the consumer get the short end of the stick. I just don’t believe the auto industry/oil companies are willing to let us off the hook untill they can controll the means for refueling.The next thing is where will big government get tax dollars for their roads if we don’t burn fuel controlled by them?There are too many big players in this situation to let the consumer get by without buying fuel fom them, no matter what kind it is.
Please don’t get me wrong, I want to be one of the first to take delivery on my new VOLT !!! Time will tell !!
January 8th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Bob Lutz for President.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:57 am
So you don’t think big oil will let you off the hook, but you think big electric will? If you think AEP or Exelon or a litany of others will do you any favors when we start utilizing their nighttime generation capacity, I’ve got a few of their nuclear power plants to sell you.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Wow, and I mean WOW!
Whether it comes out as a fuel cell vehicle or ICE in terms of range extension, this car makes a statement. In near terms, I would prefer an ICE version. Does anyone really think that GM won’t provide one if the Volt is half as successful as we think it will be?
In the long term, why not hydrogen? Most of the posting here concerning hydrogen think of it in terms of a centralized infrastructure with a huge delivery system, but I think that’s wrong. One poster (Mike @ #23) mentioned the Honda home energy station, which is on the right track (decentralized). With the current advances in PV technology, who wouldn’t pay $10K to secure their transportation fuel for the next decade or better? I sure would!
I plan on getting a home PV system in the next five years anyway. The extra cost for hydrogen production would be negligible.
Go GM!
January 8th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
#58
Please read ” There are too many big players in this situation to let the consumer get by without buying fuel from them, no matterwhat kind it is.” I believe in this case electric would be the fuel
January 8th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
The fuel cell aspects don’t really interest me me at all.
The aero refinements that were apparently gleaned from the Volt design team - those do interest me.
“· Active front grille, with grille louvers that open when the fuel cell stack requires cooling
· Full underbody aerodynamic cover
· Flush door handles that feature push-to-release operation
· Wind tunnel-shaped outside mirrors with integral turn signals
· Center high-mounted rear stop lamp incorporated into full-width, wraparound spoiler
· Signature vertical taillamps with subtle fin design
· Side glass mounted flush with pillars
· Wheels with clear-covered space between the spokes, creating a sleeker profile while maintaining Cadillac’s signature bold wheel design
· Low-drag roof rack”
January 8th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
[quote comment="25300"] OhmExcited # 55
Whenever hydrogen is mentioned around here these gangs pop up to start bullying anyone who has an open mind about it. Reminds me of how the Atkins Diet cultists constantly evangelized that carbs were evil.[/quote]
No one here is bullying anyone. Nor did I notice any gang members present. Most of us just think Fuel cells are really stupid for now. They are. According to http://www.h2stations.org/ there are a sparse number of filling stations on the entire planet. I say there are way many plugs and gas stations, thereby making the ICE more attractive than fuel cells. What we need now are batteries that at least triple the 40 mile range.
Planning for the future is good. I happen to think that Fuel Cells are too far into the future. Plugs, gasoline, maybe ethanol are here now. All come with a price on the environment. Perhaps when solar is perfected to around 95% capture of the Sun’s energy, then we will do very good things for the environment.
No bullying or gang members here. Just opinions.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
20 miles…skip
fuel cell…skip
January 8th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Ignore the Fuel Cell component and this vehicle is a great design and can see it going into production. GM just replace the Fuel Cell with an gas or diesel ICE and increase the battery to provide 40 mile range and you have a winner. Looking forward to seeing it at the Detroit Auto show next couple of weeks, really like the styling.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
I don’t think the infrastructure will be a problem, as GM has dealerships that can become the infrastructure pretty quickly.
Need hydrogen? Stop in your local GM dealer. It’s in their control to make it happen.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I think it’s pretty obvious that GM would use the Volt battery pack in this car. There’s economy of scale, and they can share all the work they’ve done on the power electronics.
Therefore it is dead obvious that a large, heavy luxury SUV is going to get less range than a compact car that’s optimized for peak range.
That’s basically what all you guys are complaining about. It’s not like GM has a dial on the factory floor to set the electric range of a car, and they turned it to 20 just to piss you off. Jesus, how many gm-volt readers does it take to screw in a light bulb.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Diesel and Gas ICE options are the only logical way forward. PHEV’s are our solution for the next decade or two. Put a diesel in it and I’ll buy one.
A couple models like this and GM could be back in the game. The E-flex system sounds great. Want to see and drive a real one, not read about it.
Thanks for everyone’s comments above. Learned a lot from your input.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Replace the fuel cell with a diesel or gasoline range extender and they’d sell another one immediately.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
What about those who have worried about the gas in their tank never getting used? Wouldn’t this be a good alternative (provided the all electric range was a little farther) for the rare occurence that they run out of charge? I also agree that installing charging stations at dealerships would be a good start.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
For Mark #67-
Please do some research regarding hydrogen as a fuel source. If the desired outcome of implementing alternative fuels is something away from fossil fuels then Hydrogen is not the answer.
If GM dealerships were to become fuelling stations for H2 then consider this- the nearest one from where I live is 80 miles!
January 8th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
As far as the Provoq concept, the name says it all. It has provoqed thought and opinions among the Volt faithful. Apparently, GM listens to the consumer-one of the positive turn of events behind the creation of this very site. I think the Caddy is very nice looking, but I fell in love with the Volt also. Honestly, if they both have ICE’s and plug-in and both meet range requirements, I won’t care which. Both look very nice to me.
Concerning the H2 issue, I agree with the posters here. There isn’t much I can add to it, other than I hope that one day the infrastructure exists to make it viable, but until then…
And finally, big oilcompanies are like the Harkonnen in Dune. Once the Volt/Saturn/Opel/Provoq come online, does anyone honestly think the oil companies are just gonna pack up and leave?
Think about it…
January 8th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Can GM really afford to waste so much R&D on cars that will never be made?
January 8th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
So what happens to a 10,000 psi hydrogen tank in the event of an accident? Seriously. I used to work with 1,000 psi acetylene tanks, and was taught to handle THEM very carefully.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
What are you thinking? The public wants a small, safe, cheap electric like that EV-1 that you trashed. We are trying to get away from the expense of $3.+ gas and you offer us an overpriced Prius. If we could afford one of these we could afford to keep buying the gas. A conventional $16,000. Corolla gets 40mpg hwy. Take the price of what you’re offering and do the math. Even at $4.gal it makes no sense, aside from Yuppie appeal.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Jim G,
Gasoline is as explosive as hydrogen and it is stored in plastic tanks on many cars and while explosions and fires do occur, they are not the primary source of deaths on the highways. I don’t see this a big problem.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Why can’t GM just focus on a practical plug- in vehicle that real people can buy? This whole effort looks like a big waste of R&D money, money that could be better spent on a practical vehicle for the masses. I am having trouble taking the whole GM Volt concept seriously anymore. I would be much more impressed if this news had been that GM had plans for a large manufacturing run of Volts with an MSRP of less than $25,000, and available next year for sure. Maybe I should set my hopes on Toyota, again.
M McGlade
January 8th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
All of you H2 nay sayers had better get your eyes checked and do some research. The H2 Economy is coming and should be embraced, sooner than later. We need HFCV and HICEs to become Oil Independent and take the car out of the Climate Change debate. Here in California we have more H2 stations than E85 stations and by 2010 will have 100 H2 filling stations.There are currently at least three along my commute route. GM and the DOD have been testing FCVs since 2005 and will be producing 100 Equinox FCVs for trials for early adopters in ‘08.
GM hit a home run with the Provoq I would by one now!
January 8th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Lose the Hydrogen it’s a fools play that the government is sponsoring to postpone the move to electricity. Don’t help the government mislead the public and preserve the oil industry’s hold on us (petroleum is the future source of Hydrogen fuel and it’s dirty).
Go with 60 miles of electric power and a gasoline backup like the Volt. Both infrastructures are here today and it’s a very green solution, given that most Americans drive less than 40 mile per day.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
[quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
Thats EXACTLY what I want! Well stated.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
1) Gasoline is explosive but not as much as many people think. You do have to compress it 10x and ignite it with a spark in your pistons, after all. With the extreme pressures discussed for H2 tanks, they will become weak and crack over time, potentially causing violent decompressions, esp. if there’s an accident. That’s why all the H2 proposals I’ve seen include federally-mandated tank inspections at least every 8 years. I’d rather not have one of these in my back seat.
2) Re: the idea of adding more people and money to the Volt project: you need to read The Mythical Man Month. It’s about managing software development but I’m sure a similar principle applies. GM almost certainly has all the people and resources it needs to make the Volt in the shortest amount of time possible. There would be no place to add more people or money, so there’s no harm if the extra people and money are devoted to developing other projects like the Caddy.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I agree with most that an ICE version would be very welcome right now. Hydrogen later when the infrastructure is in place.
I would love to get a 4 door version of an E-flex with 30 to 40 mile all electric range. Maybe the Saturn version will be the one I’m after.
January 8th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
[quote comment="25336"][quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
Thats EXACTLY what I want! Well stated.[/quote]
Ditto–although a little faster than 65 mph for obvious safety AND fun reasons. But right on the mark.