GM has decided to release some details about a car they are showing at the Detroit Auto Show starting next weekend when press days begin (I will be there folks). It is their new 2-Mode Hybrid Saturn VUE.
GM has previously built 2-mode hybrid Tahoes and Yukons, which are just becoming available at dealerships. They also announced production of a 2-mode hybrid Escalade.
Now they are introducing a smaller vehicle which will use the advanced 2-mode hybrid powertrain. This technology uses 2 electric motors; one for low-speed driving, and the other for high speed driving. This is different than the current crop of hybrids (like the Prius) which have only one motor for low-speed.
As a result, 2-mode’s get better mileage than standard versions both in city and highway driving. So, for the new 2-mode hybrid VUE, GM reports that we can expect a 50% increase in mpg compared to the current non-hybrid version, and will likely get about 29 miles per gallon combined, or about 35 mpg on the highway.
This car is the next step towards a fully electric powertrain, and the 2009 model will begin production later this year. Next up, the plug-in 2-mode Saturn VUE, and after that??
This entry was posted on Sunday, January 6th, 2008 at 2:55 pm and is filed under Hybrid. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Jan 6th, 2008 (3:08 pm)35 MPG highway is very respectable for an SUV.
I wonder if they could build all the SUVs this way. It seems it would go a long way towards CAFE.
Jan 6th, 2008 (3:19 pm)I want one
Jan 6th, 2008 (3:28 pm)Could this be the “Saturn Surprise” at the NAIAS ?
Jan 6th, 2008 (3:36 pm)Elsewhere, people are predicting 26 city, 25 highway pr thereabouts.
Its all speculation until the actual EPA numbers come out.
Jan 6th, 2008 (3:49 pm)The car uses a 3.6L V6 with direct injection. Pity they didn’t consider engine downsizing with turbocharging as an additional factor for increasing economy.
Nonetheless, impressive.
Jan 6th, 2008 (4:23 pm)Probably double the gas mileage of my wife’s SUV. I’d love to get her into one. I’ll be curious to see the pricing, the availability of 4WD (there are always a few days every winter when I cannot get my car to our block, so it is nice to have one 4WD vehicle), and the impact on gas mileage of 4WD. I’ll be sorely tempted, but will probably wait for the plug-in version.
Jan 6th, 2008 (4:47 pm)No Plug?
NO SALE!
Jan 6th, 2008 (4:52 pm)Pontiac Vibe gets about that mileage with a conventional engine (albeit made by Toyota).
Jan 6th, 2008 (5:13 pm)They need to make it with the Ecotech 4. My Saturn Vue Hybrid gets an average of 29 combined and 32+ on the highway. I want one with a plug, that is what I am waiting for, I would like a Vue sized E-Flex drive. The Volt will be cool but may be too small to fit my taste.
Jan 6th, 2008 (5:17 pm)[quote comment="24853"]Pontiac Vibe gets about that mileage with a conventional engine (albeit made by Toyota).[/quote]
True, but the Vue has a lot more power, and is bigger.
Jan 6th, 2008 (5:37 pm)I’ve said before that I think the plug-in-ization of the dual mode is a natural, easy and very cost effective means by which even GM’s big iron can go electric. Apparently the Saturn Vue 2009 Greenline’s plug-in will have around a 10 mile electric range,
which obviously will be beefed up as battery prices fall. Seems to me that once you’ve plug-in modified one dual hybrid, you could easily apply the hardware to the next dual mode. Is it possible GM may have
dozens of plug-ins available in the next few years? I don’t see anything stopping them. As far as avoiding gas is concerned, remember that 30% of commuters average less than 10 miles per round trip and 51%
less than 20 miles, which would be a recharge at the workplace of around 1 hour.
The hybridization plus the 10 mile plug-in-ization is a pretty good one-two punch and may be the big unreported story re GM future vehicles. I think I’ll calculate the achieved MPG for the Saturn Vue for the commuters using the US Transportation Dept stats. The cost of the plug-in-ization seems to mostly involve buying the extra batteries.
Jan 6th, 2008 (5:38 pm)our Ford Escape Hybrid gets 30-31 highway and 36-38 city and its two years old, sorry, GM
Jan 6th, 2008 (5:55 pm)This is a very complex engine…I wonder how long it will last; how expensive it will be to maintain; resale.
I WANT A PLUG-IN WITH ALL ELECTRIC RANGE. THIS AIN’T IT. I’ll PASS.
Jan 6th, 2008 (6:17 pm)I’m not sure I understand the 2-mode hybrid. I mean, I understand the design the way they explain it, but I don’t understand why it is more efficient. My understanding was that a larger electric motor was not only more powerful, but also more efficient than a smaller electric motor. Maybe this is only for AC induction motors – most parallel hybrids use DC brushless.
Anyway, could someone here “splain” exactly why the 2-mode hybrid is more efficient? It certainly seems more complicated.
Jan 6th, 2008 (6:27 pm)Actually Lyle you’re a bit optimistic on the mileage. The 50% bump applies only to the city mileage. Highway mileage gets only a 10% increase. With the current FWD V-6 Vue rated at 16/24 mpg that would put the hybrid at around 24-25 city and 26-27 highway tops. Until the plug in version turns up later in 2009 you won’t get anywhere near 35 in any normal driving. A particularly conservative drive might see 30.
Jan 6th, 2008 (6:35 pm)How much power does a people mover need? The Vibe works fine. I can’t understand why GM refuses to make a homegrown small, efficient engine. Everything small and efficient are retrofitted Japanese and Korean. Their hybrid Silverado is just dandy but costs a fortune.
I think GM simply can’t afford to make efficient and cheap vehicles on their own. The profit margin required to cover their union costs (health care, etc) plus their existing debt requires them to make expensive homes on wheels that are much more profitable. With gas prices climbing their Volt program is a shot to the moon. Let’s hope they can find a way to capture the lower market segment and still make a profit.
Jan 6th, 2008 (8:15 pm)call me when I can plug-in my car and get 30-40 miles on a charge, otherwise, I’ll ignore it.
No plug, no sale.
Jan 6th, 2008 (9:29 pm)[quote comment="24847"]AES Said:
Pity they didn’t consider engine downsizing with turbocharging as an additional factor for increasing economy.[/quote]
A turbocharged diesel would be even better.
Jan 6th, 2008 (9:35 pm)Hi Sam:
Actually I got that number for the Associated Press release:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gX2_e3-lpimjo_DEuUt0tLzj_8vwD8U062IO0
Jan 6th, 2008 (9:37 pm)Similar figures given by Mark Phelan at the Detroit Press:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080106/BUSINESS01/80106041/1051/SPORTS
Jan 6th, 2008 (9:48 pm)Well they’re both wrong.
Jan 6th, 2008 (9:57 pm)It wouldn’t surprise me Sam…I admire your accuracy.
See Sam’s detailed post about the car here:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/06/detroit-2008-saturn-vue-2-mode-hybrid/
Jan 6th, 2008 (10:02 pm)I think Sam is talking about real life mpg, and those articles are estimates of driving cycle mpg’s. The Prius used to say 55 mpg on the window sticker, when everyone know real life was much less than that.
Jan 6th, 2008 (10:10 pm)Actually the numbers I gave are in the ball park of what you can expect to see on the sticker for EPA numbers and probably on the road. Hypermilers might be able to get up into the mid to high 30s, but I suspect most people will see mid to upper 20s
Jan 6th, 2008 (11:50 pm)The next Vue hybrid is listed with specs on the Saturn web site:
http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/vue08/overview.jsp
It will be front wheel drive only. 25/32 MPG. Standard equipment includes a 2.4-liter, 172 horsepower ECOTEC 4-cylinder hybrid engine, 4-speed automatic transmission.
Vues are bigger then Vibes and have a lot more Rome. Vibes are made on a GM production line. It was co-developed with the Toyota Matrix. I read somewhere that Toyota sold the Vibe in Japan as a Matrix, but I have no link to that.
My daughter LOVES her Vibe!
Jan 7th, 2008 (12:35 am)Maybe the fuel economy is not ideal, but I am pleased to see GM starting to bust out hybrids left and right these days. None of them are really in Prius territory in terms of mileage, but there have still been some significant fuel economy gains. The big SUV’s even do OK, relatively speaking. This sets the stage for the Vue and Volt plug-ins to really give GM a clean image.
Jan 7th, 2008 (12:50 am)One part of this article that catches my eye is the segment on regen braking. Here’s a little more detail on this feature from the ABG article:
Regenerative braking can come in at any speed, and any combination from 100 percent regen to 100 percent friction braking is possible. The percentage of regen depends on the amount of deceleration requested by the driver’s brake application and the state of charge of the battery. Under most normal braking situations, the majority of which are less than 0.3g of decel almost all the braking will come from regen. Deceleration beyond about .35g, or when the battery is fully charged will add in friction braking. The regen limit is in part due to the rate at which the battery can absorb energy. In addition to regen blending, the brake system also provides full anti-lock braking, traction control and electronic stability control.
My questions for GM are:
1) Is this a “brake-by-wire” system? Or is there still some sort of mechanical connection extending from my foot to the brakes and wheels? I like having a rugged mechanical backup no matter what (although I guess the parking brake counts).
2) Is this regen and traction control software going to find its way into future vehicles like the Volt?
Jan 7th, 2008 (5:45 am)thatsanicepicture, The information listed on the Saturn website is for the current mild-hybrid Vue. This new two-mode has a completely different and significantly more powerful drivetrain. Saturn will ultimately be selling three different hybrid versions of the Vue, the mild-hybrid, the Two-mode being announced now and plug-in two-mode hybrid with a lithium battery coming later in 2009.
AES, the brake system is a partial brake-by-wire setup that still has a mechanical backup. In the event of a hardware failure that prevents it from building boost, you can still “push through” and stop the vehicle. It similar to what you would experience with a conventional vacuum boost system that lost vacuum. As for the Volt, yes.
Jan 7th, 2008 (11:30 am)Where’s the plug?
Jan 7th, 2008 (11:45 am)Too big and too heavy.
Jan 7th, 2008 (1:16 pm)Actually, your remark about the prius only having one electric motor is incorrect. It in fact uses two electric motors along with it’s ICE. There is a complicated system that splits power and generator duties between the two motors, and both are capable of propelling the vehicle. It is simply a mechanical issue prevents the ICE from turning off at highway speeds. (as well as the fact that the two motors are not powerful enough to accelerate at highway speeds)
You can read more on how the Prius/Hihglander/Lexus hybrid drive works here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
The 2-Mode system in the new vue is very similar, expect that at higher speeds both electric motors act as motors for a short time,then take turn acting as generators and motors.
Just like the prius, the ICE must run at highway speeds.
Jan 7th, 2008 (1:23 pm)From the base post… “This is different than the current crop of hybrids (like the Prius) which have only one motor for low-speed”
I don’t think this is quite true, or is at least mis-leading. It’s true that EV only mode on the Prius is only at low speed (less than 30mph), but the electric motor is still used to assist the ICE even at highway speed. I’ve only been in a Prius once and as a pssenger, but seem to recall the in dash guage showing the battery being drained (because it was powering the electric motor) when accelerating or going up hill, and being charged when slowing down.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Jan 7th, 2008 (1:33 pm)Looks like Thorprime and I were both posting at the same time (but I was a little slow taking a bathroom break).
In any case, as mentioned above, these parallel hybrids, including the Prius, are very complex… on top of an ICE system which is already very complex (ie. tons of moving parts and points of failure).
Series hybrid EV’s like the Volt (or as GM marketing prefers to call it, “extended range EV”) are much more efficient, a lot less complex (and reliable), and hopefully the wave of the future.
The only place parallel designs seem to make sense is in vehicles designed for towing.
Jan 7th, 2008 (2:24 pm)This Vue looks very complex to me. I don’t see how anyone would want one of these complex machines.
I could only see people leasing one of these for 3 or 4 years before the warning lights kick in.
Theres got to be a simpler way to get an SUV to 30 MPG.
Jan 7th, 2008 (5:36 pm)Most cars today are way overpowered for how the average person uses them.
Jan 7th, 2008 (6:43 pm)Why on earth is everyone here complaining by comparing this to the Vibe/Matrix? They are in two completely different categories. The Vibe is essentially a 5-door hatchback. The Vue is a small SUV (although I wouldn’t take it off-road). For those that really don’t have clue, here’s quick comparison of the 2008 Vue and Vibe:
Length – Vue: 180.1 in; Vibe: 171.9 in
Width – Vue: 72.8 in.; Vibe: 69.9 in.
Height – Vue: 67 in.; Vibe: 62.2 in.
Weight – Vue: 3825 lbs.; Vibe: 2700 lbs.
Put 1000 lbs in the back of your Vibe and see how your fuel economy is. This is a step in the right direction. If you don’t like it, you don’t need to buy it. But more availability generally equates to more sales. And more sales means the cost comes down. So when that car you’ve been waiting for finally comes out (Volt, plug-in Vue, whatever), it will be more affordable because of vehicles like this. So I would hope everyone here cheers for announcements like this, even if it isn’t exactly for you.
Jan 7th, 2008 (7:49 pm)I just don’t follow GM’s thinking in emphasizing performance over economy. GM should offer two engine options on the Vue two mode hybrid – a V6 for the driver who wants performance with some fuel economy and a Ecotech 4 for the driver who desires economy with some loss of performance. I’m considering buying a two mode Vue, but wish I had more engine options.
Jan 8th, 2008 (3:38 am)Thats a great looking vehicles.. I saw a Vue in the parking lto of my grocery store being promoted and it looked great. I’m looking forward to the day when we can get all vehicles with plug-in hybrids.. even 10 miles is quite significant. For example I just went out on about an 12 mile roundtrip and would have been almost all electric.
Jan 8th, 2008 (9:18 am)All the guessing about how Prius works is quite troubling. If nothing else, for Volt credibility, it would be best to learn the facts… starting with these:
Prius EV mode = 35 MPH
Prius STEALTH = 42 MPH
Prius PHEV max = 62 MPH
Faster than that, the engine can still shut off. The only requirement is that it spin to balance the RPM of the PSD (Power Split Device). STEALTH is EV too, but the engine-on threshold is lower.
The big motor is 50kW.
The small motor is 10kW.
Maximum use is not the point, high MPG at the cleanest emissions is.
Jan 9th, 2008 (12:08 pm)[quote comment="25224"]Thats a great looking vehicle… I saw a Vue in the parking lot of my grocery store being promoted and it looked great. I’m looking forward to the day when we can get all vehicles with plug-in hybrids… even 10 miles is quite significant. For example I just went out on about an 12 mile roundtrip and would have been almost all electric.[/quote]
I agree! And have you noticed how closely the newly-announced Caddy CUV Concept resembles this Saturn 2 Mode VUE CUV?!? The Caddy Provoq Concept is truly “provoq-ative” (exciting, stimulating) …and so is the new VUE!!!
…in case everyone here hasn’t noticed how remarkably similar its overall styling is to this just-announced Saturn 2 Mode VUE, take a second to compare even minor styling details like the hybrid “front fender vents” in both of these high-resolution photos:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/detroit-2008-2009-saturn-vue-2-mode-hybrid-1/554680/
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/detroit-2008-cadillac-provoq-fuel-cell-concept-1/565043/full/
MY MOUTH IS WATERING …EVEN MY MORE “SENSUAL” JUICES ARE FLOWING …HEY, IF THE 2009 PLUG-IN SATURN VUE LOOKS *THIS* GOOD, I MAY BE COMPELLED TO BUY IT INSTEAD OF WAITING ANOTHER 2 YRS (?) FOR THE VOLT!!!!!!
