Comments on: GM-Volt Interview: Compact Power VP of Engineering, Martin Klein, Part 2 http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/ Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:54:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Rich Anderson http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-25176 Rich Anderson Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:01:45 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-25176 I envision a day when charge stations have 1-2MW or greater battery packs stabilizing the grid and offering charges to EV's. Using an 50KW battery pack would allow for multiple high rate quick charges all the while the grid has thousands of packs to stabilize the grid. Each battery pack grid tied to a substation being constantly recharged for more charges. The technology is here now with AES using Altair nanosafe batteries. Infrastructure is must easier and much more beneficial than hydrogen or ethanol. The 33% of generated off peak power going to ground could be effectively used. I envision a day when charge stations have 1-2MW or greater battery packs stabilizing the grid and offering charges to EV’s. Using an 50KW battery pack would allow for multiple high rate quick charges all the while the grid has thousands of packs to stabilize the grid. Each battery pack grid tied to a substation being constantly recharged for more charges. The technology is here now with AES using Altair nanosafe batteries. Infrastructure is must easier and much more beneficial than hydrogen or ethanol. The 33% of generated off peak power going to ground could be effectively used.

]]> By: o.Jeff http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24426 o.Jeff Sat, 05 Jan 2008 03:19:06 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24426 Dear Mr. Klein, Thank you for answering Lyle's questions! We are counting on you and your organization to deliver a great battery pack for the Chevy Volt. The Chevy Volt is the first car in a hundred years that has the potential to really make a positive change for the world. Whether you are concerned about energy dependence out of concern for foreign policy or for economic reasons, or whether you are concerned about global climate change, the Chevy Volt is the only car that can make a significant difference. Dear Mr. Klein,

Thank you for answering Lyle’s questions!

We are counting on you and your organization to deliver a great battery pack for the Chevy Volt.

The Chevy Volt is the first car in a hundred years that has the potential to really make a positive change for the world. Whether you are concerned about energy dependence out of concern for foreign policy or for economic reasons, or whether you are concerned about global climate change, the Chevy Volt is the only car that can make a significant difference.

]]> By: butters http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24264 butters Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:43:59 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24264 Rich #27, A 50C charge is 72 seconds and a 100C discharge is 36 seconds. A 50C charge for a 16KWh pack would almost require a megawatt power source (800KW). I believe that Altair's price target is $1/Wh, which would of course be $16,000 for the Volt's pack. I wonder if that's more expensive than the packs from A123 and CPI. What happened with Altair in the run-up to GM's selection of the development teams? It really does seem like there are three major technological branches to consider in the high-power lithium-ion landscape, and Altair is one of them. They're the only ones doing anything innovative with the anode material. Rich #27,

A 50C charge is 72 seconds and a 100C discharge is 36 seconds. A 50C charge for a 16KWh pack would almost require a megawatt power source (800KW). I believe that Altair’s price target is $1/Wh, which would of course be $16,000 for the Volt’s pack. I wonder if that’s more expensive than the packs from A123 and CPI.

What happened with Altair in the run-up to GM’s selection of the development teams? It really does seem like there are three major technological branches to consider in the high-power lithium-ion landscape, and Altair is one of them. They’re the only ones doing anything innovative with the anode material.

]]> By: Rich Anderson http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24246 Rich Anderson Fri, 04 Jan 2008 03:43:11 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24246 How about a battery with 20 year life, operates and charges (50C) at -60F to +165F. Can charge in 10 minutes (100C) and can be discharged and charged totally with no damage over 15000 times. Current cost about $.50/Watt. (See AES 2MW storage system press release). Forget about cooling except maybe a fan to supply some winter heat and discharge excess to air or heat pump in summer. Check out Altair-nanosafe battery data sheet. Altair already has an 18k battery pack. (See Aerovironment, Altair. Go Green demo in Norway). Then use the generator to recharge the battery while supplying power to motor cycling back to battery every hour or so to give the volt even greater MPG. How about a battery with 20 year life, operates and charges (50C) at -60F to +165F. Can charge in 10 minutes (100C) and can be discharged and charged totally with no damage over 15000 times. Current cost about $.50/Watt. (See AES 2MW storage system press release). Forget about cooling except maybe a fan to supply some winter heat and discharge excess to air or heat pump in summer.
Check out Altair-nanosafe battery data sheet. Altair already has an 18k battery pack. (See Aerovironment, Altair. Go Green demo in Norway).
Then use the generator to recharge the battery while supplying power to motor cycling back to battery every hour or so to give the volt even greater MPG.

]]> By: Canuk http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24215 Canuk Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:21:08 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24215 Thanks for the response guys. It seems you too are keeping an eye on the happenings behind the scenes. A123 systems has already gotten into bed with Cobasys (yikes!). However, Compact Power has not (as best I can ascertain from their website). I hope that this is a tactic that GM has arranged so that Cobasys cannot hold the technology and the Li-ion batteries as ransom for another of their greedy motives. I think it would behoove us to keep watch over the main players in the Volt development to see if scheming is going on which could thwart the sucessful outcome of this new car. If development is delayed or prevented, it would most certainly be very disappointing for us and generally bad for the world as a whole. I can tell you, I'm really interested in purchasing a Volt, however, if it's not ready in about 3 years when I need a new car, I'll be making tracks to the Toyota store for one of their hybrids. Thanks for the response guys. It seems you too are keeping an eye on the happenings behind the scenes.

A123 systems has already gotten into bed with Cobasys (yikes!). However, Compact Power has not (as best I can ascertain from their website).
I hope that this is a tactic that GM has arranged so that Cobasys cannot hold the technology and the Li-ion batteries as ransom for another of their greedy motives.

I think it would behoove us to keep watch over the main players in the Volt development to see if scheming is going on which could thwart the sucessful outcome of this new car. If development is delayed or prevented, it would most certainly be very disappointing for us and generally bad for the world as a whole.

I can tell you, I’m really interested in purchasing a Volt, however, if it’s not ready in about 3 years when I need a new car, I’ll be making tracks to the Toyota store for one of their hybrids.

]]> By: AES http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24208 AES Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:07:11 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24208 I think the Exxon-Mobil thing has been overblown since they are making a new version of a component, not the whole cell. The hybrid craze has probably shown that there is legitimate big bucks to be made, so they're trying to cash in on it. Not that I don't wish them the worst for what they've done to the environment, but still...They would have to be stupid to ignore the business potential, especially with the uproar over gas prices. I think the Exxon-Mobil thing has been overblown since they are making a new version of a component, not the whole cell. The hybrid craze has probably shown that there is legitimate big bucks to be made, so they’re trying to cash in on it.

Not that I don’t wish them the worst for what they’ve done to the environment, but still…They would have to be stupid to ignore the business potential, especially with the uproar over gas prices.

]]> By: Dave G http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24202 Dave G Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:22:09 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24202 [quote comment="24199"]Li-ion technology is so widespread and used by so many other industries (cell phones, laptops, MEDICAL EQUIPMENT), that I doubt that such a massive patent coup would be either feasible or practical.[/quote] From what I understand, Chevron owns the patents for NiMH and won't allow that technology to be used in any car that doesn't use gas as the main fuel source. For example, many digital cameras use NiMH batteries. Hybrid cars also use NiMH, but not plug-ins. Owning the patents doesn't mean you shut a technology down, it just means you control how it's used. So there is room to worry... [quote comment="24199"]Li-ion technology is so widespread and used by so many other industries (cell phones, laptops, MEDICAL EQUIPMENT), that I doubt that such a massive patent coup would be either feasible or practical.[/quote]

From what I understand, Chevron owns the patents for NiMH and won’t allow that technology to be used in any car that doesn’t use gas as the main fuel source. For example, many digital cameras use NiMH batteries. Hybrid cars also use NiMH, but not plug-ins. Owning the patents doesn’t mean you shut a technology down, it just means you control how it’s used. So there is room to worry…

]]> By: Dave G http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24201 Dave G Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:14:58 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24201 [quote comment="24189"]I hope I'm just being paranoid, but after delving into the circumstances surrounding the killing of the California EV mandate, I can't help being leery of the motives, ...[/quote] Well, it looks like ExxonMobil is starting to buy up Li/Ion patents: http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/11/29/exxonmobil-helping-to-make-lithium-ion-batteries/ so there is room to worry. However, the circumstances now are much different than it was when the EV was killed: - People are finally starting to connect the dots between oil imports and terrorism - Al Gore has started a whole new green movement - Toyota has surpassed GM as the world's #1 auto maker. So old rules may not apply. Bottom line: Be vigilant, not paranoid. [quote comment="24189"]I hope I’m just being paranoid, but after delving into the circumstances surrounding the killing of the California EV mandate, I can’t help being leery of the motives, …[/quote]

Well, it looks like ExxonMobil is starting to buy up Li/Ion patents:
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/11/29/exxonmobil-helping-to-make-lithium-ion-batteries/
so there is room to worry.

However, the circumstances now are much different than it was when the EV was killed:
– People are finally starting to connect the dots between oil imports and terrorism
– Al Gore has started a whole new green movement
– Toyota has surpassed GM as the world’s #1 auto maker.

So old rules may not apply.

Bottom line: Be vigilant, not paranoid.

]]> By: AES http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24199 AES Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:11:45 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24199 Canuk- Li-ion technology is so widespread and used by so many other industries (cell phones, laptops, MEDICAL EQUIPMENT), that I doubt that such a massive patent coup would be either feasible or practical. Specific li-ion chemistries, however, such as iron phosphate might be subject to more patent lawsuits and so forth. That's the basis of the ongoing suit between A123 and the original inventors of LiFePO4. No matter what happens, there is a lot of money to be made through these technologies, so hopefully one form of greed will trump the other form. Canuk-

Li-ion technology is so widespread and used by so many other industries (cell phones, laptops, MEDICAL EQUIPMENT), that I doubt that such a massive patent coup would be either feasible or practical.

Specific li-ion chemistries, however, such as iron phosphate might be subject to more patent lawsuits and so forth. That’s the basis of the ongoing suit between A123 and the original inventors of LiFePO4.

No matter what happens, there is a lot of money to be made through these technologies, so hopefully one form of greed will trump the other form.

]]> By: Canuk http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24189 Canuk Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:46:58 +0000 http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/03/gm-volt-interview-compact-power-vp-of-engineering-martin-klein-part-2/#comment-24189 Hi Everyone: This is my first post on this site. I've been watching this site with great interest for a few months now, and am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the volt. Here in Canada, gasoline has been over $1/litre for over a year now, so a car like the volt is going to be a welcome relief from the gas sucking offerings on most of the new car lots. Anyway, I was wondering if any of you people here know or sense that there is a chance that a company like Cobasys (the arm of Chevron that sequestered most of the world's NIMH patents which helped to squash the EV1),is going to buy up the li-ion technology too and mead it out sparingly, thus creating a lack of batteries for EV use? I hope I'm just being paranoid, but after dealving into the circumstances surrounding the killing of the California EV mandate, I can't help being leary of the motives, moves and commentary from the greedy big companies that say these cars are just around the corner. Oh, by the way,I really think Lyle is doing a superb job at maintaining this site -- keep up the good work. Hi Everyone: This is my first post on this site. I’ve been watching this site with great interest for a few months now, and am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the volt. Here in Canada, gasoline has been over $1/litre for over a year now, so a car like the volt is going to be a welcome relief from the gas sucking offerings on most of the new car lots.

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you people here know or sense that there is a chance that a company like Cobasys (the arm of Chevron that sequestered most of the world’s NIMH patents which helped to squash the EV1),is going to buy up the li-ion technology too and mead it out sparingly, thus creating a lack of batteries for EV use? I hope I’m just being paranoid, but after dealving into the circumstances surrounding the killing of the California EV mandate, I can’t help being leary of the motives, moves and commentary from the greedy big companies that say these cars are just around the corner.

Oh, by the way,I really think Lyle is doing a superb job at maintaining this site — keep up the good work.

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