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The Race is on: Toyota Now Admits it is Ramping up Lithium-ion Battery Production
For the first time in 30 years, GM may have its world auto sales record (9.55 million in 1977) broken as Toyota projects it will sell 9.85 million vehicles in 2008.
Toyota also reports they are nearly at the point where they could begin to mass produce lithium ion batteries. Paradoxically, just months ago they told us lithium-ion batteries were nowhere near ready for cars (see post).
The AP reported that Toyota stated that lithium-ion batteries would appear in a plug-in hybrid car, different than the Prius , and that mass production would not start up until “after 2008″.
The batteries will be made by Panasonic.
Source (AP)
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Posted by: Lyle
63 Responses to “The Race is on: Toyota Now Admits it is Ramping up Lithium-ion Battery Production”
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December 27th, 2007 at 12:20 am
Toyota is a big company. Big companies are mainly motivated by fear, especially fear of their competition. The best you can hope for from a big company is to react quickly to potential threats.
Obviously, Toyota is reacting to the threat of the GM Volt. This is good for 2 reasons:
1) The more manufacturers producing E-REVs, the better for the consumer.
2) Toyota’s announcement will cause fear within GM, which will keep them motivated to produce the Volt and other E-REVs.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:24 am
I don’t know if “fear” is the correct term. I would rather think it is “pride”!!
Or is that too cultish??
December 27th, 2007 at 12:27 am
What more does GM’s board of directors need to understand? Stay the course and produce the Volt. It’s the RIGHT thing to do.
M.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:48 am
A plug-in Prius is still no substitute for an E-REV, aka series hybrid. The Prius is ugly and no fun to drive, and making it plug-in has already been done by aftermarket specialists. I wonder if Toyota have something truly new up their sleeve, or if this is just damage control.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:55 am
The technology to build an electric car has been around for a long time. They may not have been powered by Lithium Iom batteries but they could go 100+ miles. I don’t care who makes the leap into plug in tech, I WANT ONE NOW!!! The first company to pull their head out of the oil industries butt will have a massive following and like Ive always said, GM always sits on its hands and releases their version after everyone else.
They have done it twice with the camaro vs mustang…
December 27th, 2007 at 1:20 am
Just a reminder: doing a plug-in is not that hard if you don’t care about electric range. GM plans to have a plug-in VUE (w/ 10m range) out in 2009 and there are already after-market conversions to make the Prius a plug-in. The question is whether the Toyota offering will have range comparable to the Volt’s.
December 27th, 2007 at 1:23 am
Just read an article that there is massive amounts of oil shale under a region of the Rocky Mountains. They will soon start extracting it. This small region where it is located is said to have at least triple the
reserves that are in Saudi Arabia. We can get off foreign oil right now! They have known about this discovery for over a hundred years now, but with little resources and technology to tap it. Now we do.
Anyone else heard about this? Just google “rocky mountain oil shale”, and all kinds of stuff comes up. Happy reading and Happy New Year.
December 27th, 2007 at 2:58 am
Scott H,
Yes there are massive amounts of oil substitutes out there but say after me…
$5 per gallon.
How does it sound?
December 27th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Not to mention the ever-increasing amounts of greenhouse gasses. Although that has decreased my fears of peak oil. It seems we will have enough oil to last while we convert to renewables, even if it is $5 a gallon.
Regarding Toyota, who knows what to believe from them. I doubt they would pass up the opportunity to compete with the Volt, but some of their comments just don’t make sense.
December 27th, 2007 at 4:34 am
Brian M,
At the risk of sounding churlish, Toyotas claim sounds like a face saving gesture.
Mysterious claims of lithium technology are not enough, we are now used to detailed discussion on chemistry and manufacturing technology.
So front up Toyota, put your reputation on the line like GM.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:06 am
[quote comment="22137"]Toyota is a big company. Big companies are mainly motivated by fear, especially fear of their competition. The best you can hope for from a big company is to react quickly to potential threats.
Obviously, Toyota is reacting to the threat of the GM Volt. This is good for 2 reasons:
1) The more manufacturers producing E-REVs, the better for the consumer.
2) Toyota’s announcement will cause fear within GM, which will keep them motivated to produce the Volt and other E-REVs.[/quote]
Dave G - You’re absolutely right that fear induced by the E-REV race with Toyota will provide motivation within GM –at every level! I worked on the US man-on-the-moon program knowing that if the Russians beat us there, we might ultimately lose the cold war! Everyone on the team I worked with GLADLY put in 100 hrs or more per week for several years in the 1960’s (although paid for only 40 hrs/wk) –and I’d happily do it again!!!
Let’s hope that GM, Toyota, Tesla & every other E-REV designer/producer is “running hard, lean, hungry & scared”! Fear is a powerful motivator, whether the goal is to help win WWII (Manhatten Project) or help defeat terrorism & global warming by dramatically reducing oil consumption!
December 27th, 2007 at 7:37 am
The earliest mass production of the Volt battery pack is after the selection process concludes. That look likes late 2008. So the ramp up of the Volt battery production should occur in 2009.
Similar to this, Toyota said they would mass produce the their lithium batter sometime after next year, which is vague but could refer 2009 or later.
Go Volt!
December 27th, 2007 at 8:38 am
OhmExcited Says:
“A plug-in Prius is still no substitute for an E-REV, aka series hybrid.”
Yes, but this is the second recent press release from Toyota that has read “different than the Prius” and “with new lithium ion batteries”. So it looks like thay may be doing an E-REV (a.k.a. serial hybrid or REEV).
December 27th, 2007 at 8:47 am
Van Says:
“The earliest mass production of the Volt battery pack is after the selection process concludes.”
Huh? I thought the selection process was done last spring. GM chose A123 and LG to supply their batteries. Some folks on this site conjectured that this is a horse race and only one of these contractors will win, but then Bob Lutz reiterated that GM requires multiple sources for every part they buy. One company may get more business due to cost or quality issues, but both companies will sell batteries to GM.
Am I missing something?
December 27th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Well, I’ve been saying for a couple of months that Toyota has a case of “thou dost protest too much”. I really hope that GM has something major up their sleeve for the auto show.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:25 am
I have to agree with the comments about Toyota not doing enough with just an announcement about their plug-in. I didn’t read the press release in its entirety but their plug-in could still require gas and just give you better mileage.
Where are the pictures, concept designs, statistics, firm date? There are not even guesses to these things.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:49 am
[quote comment="22219"]Where are the pictures, concept designs, statistics, firm date? There are not even guesses to these things.[/quote]
Both pictures & video were released with the press announcement.
Since it is already being tested on the road in both Japan and the US, they are already way pass concept.
Statistics have been available from various testing sources. My favorite is Google’s aftermarket upgraded mini-fleet.
As for a firm date, that’s a red herring. Production volume means much more than when the very first is delivered.
Put it this way, why in the world do you think other plug-in vehicles are the competition?
Look around. It’s the traditional guzzler that’s the problem. Remember, MAINSTREAM replacement is the goal, not just a NICHE struggle for attention.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:27 am
[quote comment="22138"]Jim I Said:
I don’t know if “fear” is the correct term. I would rather think it is “pride”!![/quote]
Now for a brief history lesson-
The Prius was Toyota’s fear response to the EV1. GM thought toyota was ‘going to lose their shirts on the Prius’, as it turns out, Toyota is poised to become #1 in worldwide sales in 2008.
The Chevy Volt is GM’s fear respone, and rightly so.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Re: Dave G #14:
Lyle, I’d suggest again asking GM if their plan is to use BOTH A123 and LG as battery suppliers. I’ve also always assumed that has been their intention 1) because there’s a long precedent for manufacturers to dual source items like tires and batteries, and 2) because the Volt battery is its most critical component!
December 27th, 2007 at 10:55 am
[quote comment="22229"]Now for a brief history lesson-
The Prius was Toyota’s fear response to the EV1. [/quote]
It had nothing to do with that. PNGV was the reason.
With respect to GM, it was Precept not EV1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_Generation_of_Vehicles
December 27th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Toyota has indicated they were not producing a car that would run greater than 8 miles in pure electric mode at highway speeds. That’s a deal-breaker in my book, where GM’s Volt clearly beats the plug-in Prius which will be on the market in 2009.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:30 am
My older son is a marketing executive with Boost Mobil, a subsidiary of Sprint, working with the youth, surf, extreme sports market.
He is a pretty savvy trend spotter - the opposite of his old man, some may say.
We were discussing these issues on Christmas. Yeah, that may sound a little strange, but you know how obsessed these cult members are!
He said something that many have said here before. Namely, that Toyota has its own share of gas guzzling light trucks, SUVs, and big Lexus sedans, but that they have provided “green” cover for all of that with the halo of the Prius.
He said he had not the slightest doubt that Toyota had something up their sleeve to counter the Volt. He said, “If you think that Toyota is about to lose its bragging rights in the ‘green’ arena, think again.”
GM had better produce the Volt on time, and living up to it’s mileage targets, or it is going to get blown away by Toyota again. Most of us will buy a Volt over any Toyota for the political and economic reasons mentioned so often here, but most of the car buying public clearly has no loyalty to American manufacturers.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Another thing Bob Lutz said recently is that the Japanese refused to provide a bid for batteries to GM, who have an open door policy on suppliers. So, this rivalry is not only Toyota vs GM, but Japan appears to have a national strategy of refusing to collaborate with foreigners on batteries. Correct me if I’m misinformed.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
[quote comment="22234"]Toyota has indicated they were not producing a car that would run greater than 8 miles in pure electric mode at highway speeds. That’s a deal-breaker in my book, where GM’s Volt clearly beats the plug-in Prius which will be on the market in 2009.[/quote]
So what makes you think that is how consumers will do comparisons?
PRICE has always been the biggest factor.
TWO-MODE will be next, since it too will be available as a plug-in and it is a FULL hybrid.
SERIES hybrid will stand as unique, since it’s purpose is to deliver full electric in every respect… quite different from the purpose of the FULL hybrid.
With respect to the 17,000,000 vehicles sold each year in the United States, things look different. Maximums & Minimums often don’t resemble the on-paper ideal. Offering a FULL hybrid with larger capacity option or a car like VOLT with less is quite realistic.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
nasaman - I could not agree more. I definitely feel that the main obstacle for this generation is weaning our economy off foreign sources of energy (e.g. oil, natural gas). This is our Manhatten project- the technology that will free us and save our country from future conflicts. Also, thank you for your service in the space program that brought us to the moon. I only wish our generation had the same zeal for doing truly spectacular things.
Concerning the article, I have to first laugh because of all of the anti-liion battery comments that Toyota has been making recently. This is very schizophrenic of them, but understandable in a way.
Having Toyota make a PHEV/E-REV is ultimately a great thing, however. The more competition there is in the market, the better vehicle we will be able to buy.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
As the new guy to this forum, I hope I’m not seen as the bad guy-especially as that every one of the 6 or 7 cars that I have owned have been either GM or Toyota, except for 2 Hyundais. I cannot knock Toyota for trying to maintain its green status or trying to be the best seller. Not trying to sound a bit cultist, but as efficient as my Toyotas were, I have always been proud of my Chevys. Especially my Silverado.
I eagerly await the Volt’s release as I transition to smaller, more efficient transportation. To me the Prius is unattractive. Not to offend anyone-beauty is subjective. The Volt, however, gives the countenance of an eco-friendly 4 door Camaro. What’s not to love abuot that?
I hope that GM keeps the momentum with the Volt that this forum and website have demonstrated. I want GM to succeed for these reasons:
1) I’m American, and despite some flaws (political et al) I honor what we as a country stand for and support everyone in it.
2) I am tired of everyone saying that Americans can’t build a good car.
3) I want to lessen humanity’s negative impact on the environment.
4) The Volt will keep me buying GM products.
Kudos for this website. Can’t wait till the 2011 Chevy Volt Owners Gathering in Detroit (or California…wherever…)
December 27th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
I am going to guess that that the lithium ion battery has been a major target for Toyota for a long time now. Technical hurdle may have been overcome.
Toyota has been downplaying the serial hybrid and hasn’t said anything reverseing those comments. So I am going to guess they next car from toyota will be a better prius type car.
Big deal!
All a prius does is make better use of gas. A volt is designed to eliminate gas. There is only so much energy in a gallon of gas so you potential gas milage is limited by that and as you get closer to the limit new gains are harder and more expensive.
A serial volt on the otherhand has no limit to the miles per gallon with the ultimate being 0 gallons used per year. Some people would actually NEVER need to buy gas if a volt were out.
My fear for GM is that they are taking so long to get the volt from concept to production. I can invision Toyota going through the same process as GM and actually beating GM to the punch even though they may have started AFTER GM did.
I just don’t think it should take almost half a decade to build the car.
December 27th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
john1701a,
Thanks for the link!
I had heard that GM had a hybrid in the works early, and the Prius was Toyota’s reaction to that, but now I have details to back it up.
I wonder what would have happened if GM took the Precept to production. I’m sure GM would be in better shape, but then we may have never seen the Volt!
December 27th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
[quote]
According to Lutz, Okamoto accused GM of using the Volt concept as a marketing ruse, and chatacterized the lithium battery-powered Volt as “completely wacky” and “nonsense.” … He said that Japanese companies were guarding its advanced battery technology research and refused to bid on GM’s battery proposals. “Lithium battery technology is being husbanded in Japan. It’s like a secret weapon.”
[/quote]
December 27th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Today in Discovery News is an article about how electric cars can save the grid.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/12/27/electric-car-grid.html
December 27th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
I heard this song from Toyota last year. They were going to be number one in 2007: the same Toyota guy said. I think they didn’t forget all quality problems they have this year.
They can always try, but they have to know that this is not going to be a piece of cake. Because, starting 2008, we will be seing more hybrids than ever.
December 27th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Kevin R #30,
The Volt won’t support V2G. Maybe in a future version.
The onboard battery charger in the Volt works in only 1 direction - from the grid to the battery. Going in the other direction would require an inverter module, which adds expense. Note that the inverter for the engine is quite different and will not work for grid-tie applications.
December 27th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
#17, I couldn’t find any reference to this press release with pictures and video. If you have a link, please share. For those that didn’t read the link, the relevant portions are:
“Toyota also said it was preparing to start mass producing lithium-ion batteries for low-emission vehicles.
Lithium-ion batteries will not be used in the Prius, on sale for a decade and the most popular hybrid on the market, according to Toyota.
The lithium-ion battery will be used in a plug-in hybrid, which would recharge from a regular home socket, and travel longer as an electric vehicle than the Prius. Toyota has started tests on its plug-in hybrid, but has not shown a model using the new battery.
Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto, who oversees technology, said Toyota had developed the lithium-ion battery to a level that it is almost ready for mass production, although that won’t start until sometime after next year.”
So according to that, they’ve “started” tests on their plug-in hybrid. You could make the same statement about the Volt. And they are looking at 2009 at the earliest for mass production, which is about the same time-frame as GM. Like most others, I’m not going to get too worried without a lot more information as it doesn’t sound like they are much, if at all, ahead of GM.
December 27th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Gee, isn’t it amazing how in just a few weeks, lithium batteries went from dangerous things to put into a car to wonderfull things to put into a car. Is Toyota braindead, or what? Perhaps someone at Panasonic who understands batteries informed the Toyota execs what was what. Next question : there are about a dozen different variations of li ion batteries. Which type is Toyota using? Anyone want to bet that such a question addressed to any Toyota exec would elicit a blank stare?
December 27th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
I always figured that Toyota was working hard on lithium-ion cells behind the scenes even while badmouthing them publicly. The question is if they will stick with a hybrid design, albeit predominantly serial, for their plug-ins into the next decade.
It’s conceivable that Toyota intends to retain the gasoline drive even as they scale up the electric drive. It’s a flexibility vs. simplicity trade-off with some efficiency side-effects. While GM has chosen to decouple the ICE to trim the complexity and mechanical inertia of the drivetrain, Toyota might choose to keep the mechanical transmission to ease the peak power requirement for the electric drive.
Toyota has been using DC brushless motors, which don’t scale very well to full EV power because of their permanent magnets. Switching to AC induction motors isn’t trivial because the motor control algorithms are significantly more complex. This could be a large part of the reason for sticking with their hybrid transmission. It’s where they’ve made their biggest investment, whereas GM tackled induction motors back in the EV1 days.
December 27th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Hi Folks, I may have been mistaken, I took the statement reported by Lyle that the field of contenders had been narrowed to two meant that the two were still contending. And then I also took the statement that the bench testing and mule testing was to determine the eventual superior design, to preclude mass production before the testing determined the design deemed superior by GM. Sorry if I jumped to an unwarrented conclusions.
December 27th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Toyota’s EV’s did indeed have permanent magnet DC brushless motors. The 2003 RAV4 EV had acceleration of 0-50 mph in 12.8 seconds (or 0-60 mph in about 18 seconds) and a top speed of 79 mph. The GM EV1 had a 3-phase A/C induction motor similar in concept to the Tesla motor (but lower hp). It was much faster than the RAV4 at 0-60 in 7.4 seconds. Granted the RAV4 was a 4 door small SUV, but the GM clearly had a superior motor. From what we’ve heard from GM about the Volt motor, it is also 3-phase A/C induction but with more horsepower than the EV1.
Toyota clearly have the capability to build a 3-phase A/C motor as well. It’s not rocket science, but does require a fair amount of design and refinement. I doubt they would pull it off in production however prior to completion of the Volt.
December 27th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Toyota is a big company. Every company that size is going to have some communications problems. I’m sure one group did some research and concluded one thing about Li-ion batteries and another group said another thing and hence you have this impression of schizophrenia. When this kind of thing happens you have to apply Occam’s razor. Which is more likely, Toyota is evil and is executing an obscure master plan, or they have some communications problems internally.
December 27th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
[quote comment="22298"]Toyota clearly have the capability to build a 3-phase A/C motor as well. It’s not rocket science, but does require a fair amount of design and refinement. I doubt they would pull it off in production however prior to completion of the Volt.[/quote]
So much history incorrect here… it’s starting to become a real problem… any suggestions to end all this misinformation?
The Toyota hybrids have always used AC motors.
It’s Honda & Ford that stayed with brushless DC.
December 27th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
john1701a Says:
“The Toyota hybrids have always used AC motors.”
That doesn’t sound right. According to this:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=
“Today, all the hybrids are powered by DC brushless drives, with no exceptions.”
According to this:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
The Prius uses a “Permanent magnet AC synchronous motor”. What the heck is that? AC motors don’t have magnets. They use coils in the rotor and stator.
Maybe Toyota is playing games with their naming convention. I do know that DC brushless and AC induction motors both use DC pulses from the battery, so maybe they think that gives them some naming license…
December 27th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Sorry, the tesla link above was supposed to be:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45
This is a great write-up on Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors by Walley Rippel, who worked on the EV-1 motor.
December 27th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
26. Firefly
“Can’t wait till the 2011 Chevy Volt Owners Gathering in Detroit (or California…wherever…)
How about Vegas… spring 2011 before it gets hot. Maybe we could convince a major property to install plug-ins on one floor of a parking garage. They are going to have to do it sooner or later anyway.
December 27th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
What about Amsterdam, Europe?
December 27th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
[quote comment="22292"]Gee, isn’t it amazing how in just a few weeks, lithium batteries went from dangerous things to put into a car to wonderfull things to put into a car. Is Toyota braindead, or what?[/quote]
No, it’s the media leaving out vital information… like Toyota wanting to avoid liquid cooling to contain cost. The risk related to heat goes up rather significantly without that, hence the danger.
The cost related to support for below-freezing charging is also an issue that never gets mentioned either.
It’s easy to produce an extremely expensive vehicle. Reaching a low price-point is the challenge… hence the original presentation to that investor group… which sadly was taken out-of-context.
December 27th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
mmcc #42,
For the price a hotel would probably charge you to plug in, you might as well just run the Volt on gas. After all, this is one of the Volt’s biggest advantages, you aren’t forced to plug in. For the occaisional long trip, the amount of gas used would probably be very small in the scheme of things.
December 27th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
[quote comment="22305"]According to this:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=
“Today, all the hybrids are powered by DC brushless drives, with no exceptions.”
[/quote]
Don’t believe everything you read; instead, take a look under the hood. You’ll see that Prius has an inverter… something only AC motors use.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
john1701a Says:
“You’ll see that Prius has an inverter… something only AC motors use.”
From what I undersatnd, a DC brushless motor controller and an AC induction motor controller (a.k.a. inverter) are basically the same. They both use software to control DC pulses to a 3-phase motor. The main difference is that AC induction motors don’t use magnets in the rotor. This makes the control software very different, but the motor controller hardware (a.k.a. inverter) is pretty much the same.
Toyota’s web site says they use magnets. I’ve never heard of an AC motor using magnets. Can you explain this?
December 27th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
John and Dave:
The AC/DC debate is clouded by the fact that both are actually AC motors under the covers. The DC brushless can be more accurately described as a polyphase synchronous permanent-magnet motor with an integrated solid-state pulse-modulating controller. The Volt’s motor is a polyphase induction squirrel-cage motor without any integrated controller.
What Toyota did with the Prius was to decouple the DC brushless motor from its customary controller, implementing it instead as a part of the external power electronics subsystem. The resulting motor uses exactly the same kind of stator and pulse modulator as the Volt’s AC induction motor.
The difference is in the rotor and the control algorithms. The rotor in the “DC” machine contains permanent magnets, which are relatively expensive and don’t scale well to high-power motors. But because of the synchronous operation, the control algorithm is simple. That’s why it could be implemented as an integrated controller back in the 1960s.
The rotor in the “AC” machine is more cost-effective and energy-efficient, especially for high-power motors. However, because the stator and rotor frequencies differ by a load-dependent slip frequency, the control algorithm is more complicated. A programmable microprocessor is essentially required for variable-speed and variable-load operation.
You could say that the AC induction motor is all muscle and no brain, whereas the DC brushless is more of a balanced solution. As long as you can handle the complexity of the control algorithms, though, nobody can touch the performance of the induction motor. It’s not a question of being able to produce the motor. It’s a question of being able to make it work.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
butters #48,
Thanks for this excellent explaination.
As I suspected, Toyota re-packaged a DC brushless motor (putting the controller in a differnt place) and called it a “Permanent magnet AC synchronous motor”. It still functions exactly as a DC brushless motor.
An AC induction motor is more complicated, more powerful, and more efficient for high power applications. Electric vehicles (BEVs, E-REVs, REEVs, serial hybrids) work better with induction motors. Parallel hybrids (e.g. Prius) work better with brushless motors.
I don’t think Toyota will have a problem developing an AC induction motor controller, but I think it’s fair to say the Prius doesn’t have one.
December 27th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
john1701a, you are playing semantics. Are you saying Toyota has always used the same type of A/C induction motors as the EV1/Tesla? If so, that’s just plain wrong.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
I have owned two Toyota’s and both were lemons. I will never buy another car from them so I could care less what they do.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:57 am
[quote comment="22332"]john1701a, you are playing semantics.[/quote]
Since I clearly stated the motor type is different for Toyota as it is for Honda & Ford, there should be no confusion. They are not the same. And no other comparison was made.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:08 am
I have a lot of respect for Toyota. Most of their cars are very reliable and the Prius is very efficient. If Toyota made a range extended EV, I would definately be interested.
But it looks like GM is ahead on this one, and it would be nice to be proud of an American car company for a change.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:58 am
john1701a, you continue to play semantics even while denying it. The Prius uses a permanent magnet electric motor. Put more simply, the Prius and former Toyota electric vehicle acceleration performance is lousy. Maybe they have something new up their sleeve, but it would be the world’s best kept secret.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:18 am
AC = Alternating Current
DC = Direct Current
HSD motors operate on AC.
Geez!
December 28th, 2007 at 11:38 am
The Prius bashers here might want to check out Edmunds auto site and read some real world owners reports, which are almost uniformly glowing. Like it or not, most Prius owners absolutely love the car, and I personally know several (very happy) Prius owners getting 50 mpg with the right driving techniques.
And with the next generation Prius due out in fall of 2008 and Toyota claiming something like a 30% increase in efficiency, we may well be seeing a $25K car that can get 65 mpg. Meanwhile the Volt will still be, what, two years away from availability? And that 80% hybrid market share that Toyota now owns speaks for itself.
In regards to the PHEV lithium battery pack issue, it is absolutely true that Toyota has put out huge mixed signals–and possibly deliberate misinformation–to the press, which may or may not be part of a stealth strategy to hide their real intentions from the competition–who knows? As they say, all is fair in love and war, and Toyota clearly sees this race as one they want to win.
To further stir the murky waters here, I have read recent credible reports that Toyota has committed to a substantial purchase of PHET LiFePo battery cells from the only licensed mfgr in Taiwan in 2008. PHET is the original LiFePo formulation patented by the University of Texas and later tweaked by the MIT fellow who started A123. (UT has sued A123 for patent infringement, in fact, and the case is pending.) These cells are proven performers and ideal for PHEV applications as they boast extended cycle life, and my best guess is that Toyota is hedging its bets and will be using these PHET cells at least near term for development purposes in their plug-in hybrids.
Buying batteries from an outside source directly contradicts Toyota’s in-house supplier philosophy, which leads me to suspect that the PanasonicEV (T’s in-house battery supplier–T owns a majority share of the company) lithium is NOT ready for prime time right now, at least not in a PHEV application. Very interesting that Toyota may end up at least temporarily using a battery originally formulated in the USA and supplied by one of A123’s biggest potential competitors.
Let the games begin!
December 30th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Why do people think Toyota is such a great technological company. They come out with the Prius and whoops that makes them the technological leaders. GM has contributed many many great inventions, but very few want to give them credit for anything. I know they’ve made mistakes but so did all the others. Today, GM is making world class cars with top quality but people still scramble to buy Toyotas even with their bad quality. I find it strange why we in the USA can have so much misguided criticism about our own companies. Toyota is worried today because a very powerful competitor has woken up after twenty five years of sleeping. I hope GM buries Toyota because they don’t deserve the glory they are getting.
December 30th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
[quote comment="23047"]Why do people think Toyota is such a great technological company… quote]Joe, I hesitate to comment about this because it’s an extremely emotional subject. However, as a guy who’s never owned a Toyota, I feel compelled to answer your question from my viewpoint…
Current data on repairs on 323 models of thousands of 2005-2007 cars sold in the US (provided by Consumer Reports subscribers) shows the following:
The Toyota Prius has been 80% MORE RELIABLE THAN THE AVERAGE CAR. For this same ‘05-’07 time period, the 4-Cyl Chevy Malibu is 5% BELOW AVERAGE & the Cobalt is 15% BELOW AVERAGE in reliability. (BTW, engine & drivetrain components are weighted higher than cosmetic or other less-critical parts.)
If you’re a consumerreports.org member, you can see the data at this link: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/types/sedans/reliability-comparison.htm
PS: I agree that Toyota has probably NOT been as innovative as GM, but when it comes to quality, GM still lags way behind them based on these numbers from the most recent repair data!
December 31st, 2007 at 1:40 am
C’mon folks, let’s get real. Toyota went out on a limb 10–yes, 10 friggin years ago with the Prius and built the first several thousand cars at a huge loss because they had the conviction that this was a car that would be needed–and wanted–by the public.
Guess what? They were right. And this was at the same time GM was forcing its dealers–at huge expense–to take on the Hummer line. Tell me who was prescient and who had their heads up their proverbial arses.
Believe it or not, I’m rooting for the Volt, if only to keep the pressure on the industry as a whole to step up to the plate and deliver what’s needed to wean us off Arab oil.
My only point is that Toyota led the way and continues to set the benchmarks here, and you’re a horse’s ass if you begrudge them for setting the standard here and upping the stakes in offering a state-of-the-art fuel efficient vehicle.
Do you really think GM would be even mildly interested in hybrid vehicles if Toyota hadn’t shown the way–and proved the market is thirsting for a high quality, high efficiency car?
Give Toyota its due for goodness sake. This is a company that has shown the courage of its convictions, even during a time when gas was $1/gallon here in the US. Nuff said.
December 31st, 2007 at 11:59 am
Can you believe anything Toyota says? I think they are a bunch of conniving people and they’ll copy and steal anything to discredit the American auto industry. Our perception is that their cars are superior to ours and that is far from the truth. I’ve own Japanese cars and they were the worst cars I ever owned.
December 31st, 2007 at 12:11 pm
[quote comment="23275"] …Our perception is that their (Toyota) cars are superior to ours and that is far from the truth. I’ve own Japanese cars and they were the worst cars I ever owned.[/quote]
Joe… Did you miss my post #58 above? I’ve never owned a Toyota or any other Japanese car, but the most recent reliability data on well over a MILLION cars shows the Prius to be an exceptionally reliable car!!! Current data on repairs on 323 models of 2005-2007 cars sold in the US (provided by Consumer Reports subscribers) shows the following:
The Toyota Prius has been 80% MORE RELIABLE THAN THE AVERAGE CAR. For this same ‘05-’07 time period, the 4-Cyl Chevy Malibu is 5% BELOW AVERAGE & the Cobalt is 15% BELOW AVERAGE in reliability. (BTW, engine & drivetrain components are weighted higher than cosmetic or other less-critical parts.)
Sorry you got lemons from the Japanese, but the numbers just don’t lie!!!
December 31st, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Somebody states that Toyota was so considerate even when gas was $1.00 a gallon, they were building economy cars. That’s a dumb statement to make because Toyota then only made small cars. Toyota comes out with the Prius and that immediately makes them the technological leader. How about giving our companies credit for their accomplishment? Oh, by the way, the Japanese cars years ago had quality problems just as bad as we did. Now the quality of our cars are just as good as the best if not better. Look at Toyota quality for the year 2007. It is horrible! Whereas on the other hand, Buicks have reached the same level as the Lexus and yet are much less expensive cars but just as good. Wake up America!
January 9th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
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