Dec 06

How Did GM determine that 78% of Commuters Drive Less Than 40 miles per day?

 

gmslide.jpg

A central factor in the Chevy Volt’s engineering design is that it can be driven for up to 40 miles on electric power only. A lot of electric car enthusiasts and manufacturers have come up with varying ranges for their vehicles. An example of this is the fact that the Tesla Roadster is designed to get about 250 miles on electric range.

Obviously GM wants to keep the Volt affordable and so arrived at a sweet spot figure of 40 miles. This distance was determined be achievable with a battery of 16 kWH weighing about 400 pounds in car similar in weight, size, and performance of the Chevy Cobalt.

GM cites the statistic that 78% of commuters drive less than 40 miles per day. The graphic above is the official GM slide referring to that data.I was able to locate the original study from which the information was gleaned.

Published by the U.S. Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, the Omnibus Household Survey, or OmniStats data, were based on a household survey of 1000 randomly selected households asked about their driving habits in the previous one month (done in 2003).

The entire report can be read here: (LINK)

The graphic below is the same data shown in it’s original form:

omnibus.jpg

Will the typical Volt driver be representative of this survey population? Since people on this site are obviously those interested in buying a Volt, it would be interesting to do our own informal poll here. We have replicated the study exactly here. Go to our polling page and vote, it’s the last poll on the page: (LINK)

This entry was posted on Thursday, December 6th, 2007 at 8:03 am and is filed under Research. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 93


  1. 1
    hercule

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    hercule
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (8:15 am)

    While my round trip exceeds 40 miles per day, I think it is very likely that I could convince my employer to let me plug in at work, which means that a commute of less than 80 miles could be gas free. If the volt becomes common, it would be easy to sell metered power in certain spaces to allow for longer electric ranges. Most people probably are at work at least 6-8 hours, which is probably enough time to recharge.


  2. 2
    Ed

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Ed
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (8:22 am)

    I believe the survey is to old to be reliable. I drive approx. 220 miles per day , 4 days a week and approx 60 miles 3 days a week. Would love to see a greater electric only range but will live with 40 miles without range extender. If there is another electric only with 125 per charge I’d buy it. GM must be the first company to bring an electric to production or thier market share will fall greatly. Don’t let Toyota or Honda beat you to production.


  3. 3
    Tim

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tim
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (9:00 am)

    As more EVs come online so will more charging opportunities. 40 miles is more than enough range.


  4. 4
    coal_burner

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    coal_burner
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (9:47 am)

    I drive 18 – 23 miles one way (depends on the route). I plug my block heater in at work right now, and would continue plugging in with the Volt.


  5. 5
    Don

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Don
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (10:16 am)

    Thank you very much for that link.


  6. 6
    rayo

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    rayo
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (10:21 am)

    I work in a service industry and 2-3 days a week I spend the bulk of my time travelling in the City. Anywhere from 30 – 70 Miles. The other days of the week I travel 150-250 miles per day servicing our country customers… I would like to see an initial charge of around 100 miles. That should be the Ideal marker for most people here in Canada where distance is usually measured in time rather than miles (I’m 20 minutes away instead of 15 miles).


  7. 7
    Brian M

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Brian M
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (10:29 am)

    I only commute about 1 mile each way to work, usually by bike. I haven’t bought gas for my car in the last 6 weeks.

    I’m probably not going to buy a Volt (unless I move farther away). I’m a regular on this site because I want GM to make the Volt so other people can buy it.


  8. 8
    David

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (10:57 am)

    Thank you for the information. I’m still so very excited about the Volt. It is sad that it took Chevy to introduce the Volt before the Hybrid makers started talking about plug in Hybrids.

    Me thinks plugging in a Hybrid has always been a nobrainer.

    I do hope the general public is smart enough to notice the difference between PHEVs and EVs like the Volt. Though I’m certain the parallel Hybrid companies will do their best to confuse the issue and make their vehicles look as good as a true EV.


  9. 9
    kent beuchert

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    kent beuchert
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (10:58 am)

    Calling a study done in 2003 out of date is totally absurd.
    Note that the study is only about commuters. But with the large number of retirees and second cars driven by housewives, the adequacy of a 40 mile range becomes even more pronounced. I live in a retirement community and can say that seldom, very seldom, does anyone here drive
    over 40 miles before bringing the car back to the garage. The vast majority of trips are to restaurants, grocery stores, and doctors’ offices. And housewives typically make several relatively short runs – grocery store, soccer field, etc. between which they could recharge. This all leads me to believe that commuters are the worst case scenario, although it’s not bad – you don’t have to accomplish ALL of your driving chores using electricity alone in order to put gasoline stations out of business. And I plan on fueling up with E85
    anyway. Yesterday I saw an estimate of 36 billion gallons per year of ethanol over the next decade, yielding over 40 billion gallons of E85. If everyone had a 40 mile plug-in, we could easily fulfill all our liquid fuel requirements for the private sector using only E85 : my estimate was that we would only need somewhere around 13 to 16 billion gallons. Imagine that – more ethanol than we actually will need.


  10. 10
    ziv

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ziv
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (11:04 am)

    I am a fairly typical driver, I drive about 30 miles a day 5 days a week and twice a week I will drive a bit more, about 40-100 miles for a getaway. I usually rack up about 13-14,000 miles a year and the Volt would work just right for me. I think that numbers like this are fairly common because the EPA states that cars average 12,500 and light trucks 14,000.
    So I would be using about 6 gallons ($18) a month instead of 55 ($165) gallons, if I am unable to find anywhere to plug in on the weekend. Or less than $40 worth of electricity and $18 worth of gasoline per month with a Volt vs. $165 worth of gasoline with my RAV4. So I will save about $1200 a year, I will probably get a sizable rebate, the resale will probably be better than average and electric motors should last longer than gasoline enginesthat work full time, and I get the satisfaction of knowing that my energy payments don’t go to Saudi Arabia, Venezuela or Russia… Wind generators on the roof of my home or PV cells can make this an even better investment.
    Whats not to like?
    It all comes down to, “Can they deliver the batteries at a price that will allow the Volt to be sold ‘comfortably below $30,000.’”


  11. 11
    Ken

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Ken
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (11:37 am)

    I drive 7.5 miles one way and maybe a couple of miles for meetings at other sites on a five day basis. I suspect that solar chargers would come out that could charge the batteries while people are at work. I could see this causing a shift from inside parking to outside parking becoming the desired location. I can also see a whole new industry developing of indoor drive-ins that would allow for charging of your EV while watching the movie. Just think of all the new technology that could be applied since all the conditioning, wireles audio, wireless video, wireless internet, and communication would be available in the car. I guess they would be called EV-aters.

    I am waiting to buy the Volt and just hope my Audi makes it a few more years until they come out. Normally I don’t like buying the first year model of a car because of all the design bugs that are not worked out but in this case I feel it is worth it even at $30,000.

    I need the range extender because at least 4 or five times a year I take trips that exceed 3,000 miles.


  12. 12
    noel park

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    noel park
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (11:46 am)

    Our first Volt will be for my wife, who commutes about 10 miles each way. We occasionally drive the car farther on the weekends. If it will get 50 mpg with the engine running, even that is huge.

    When my S-10 (190,000 miles and counting) finally gives up, we will probably get a second Volt. Or, God willing, by then a plug in hybrid S-10 sized pickup or van! How about an HHR sized van, but not so !@#$% cutsey-pie, with Volt styling clues and aero tweaks? I’m all over that.

    It will do a lot more miles, but I will figure out a way to plug it in at work. Once again, 50 mpg ain’t bad anyway.

    I suddenly got an image of motels all over the country with stealth extension cords running out into the parking lots! Right after that starts, I bet they will figure out a way to make a few bucks on the side charging (no pun intended) for the above. How about 5 bucks a night to plug in your Volt? $3? $2? Can one of you experts guess at a fair price? If you can go 40 miles, and it saves a gallon of gas + or -, is $2.50 fair? Can you imagine the Motel 6 security guard prowling the parking lot with a pair of dykes, cutting the cords of people who haven’t paid?


  13. 13
    GXT

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    GXT
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (11:58 am)

    This is very interesting data.

    At the risk of sounding negative, this chart supports Toyota and Honda’s view that the Volt is the wrong direction.

    GM is correct that the 40 mile range may cover 78% of US commuters. But it is only optimal for 10%. That leaves 90% that are paying for too much battery or not getting enough.

    Perhaps even worse, just over two thirds of people are not using 50% or more of the battery or are at least 50% short on battery.

    GM’s PR better be strong, because given the (lack) of actual benefit, it will take something special to convince people to pay $30K (hopefully) for a Volt over a sub $20K hybrid.


  14. 14
    GXT

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    GXT
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:00 pm)

    noel park:

    Why haven’t you already bought a Prius for your wife?


  15. 15
    noel park

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    noel park
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:06 pm)

    Am I dreaming, or did the wait list number go up about 200 over night? Maybe we will get to 30,000!

    See, now that I finally twigged to it, I am checking it every morning. Check it out Rashiid.

    Southern California Volt fans, note the schedule of Volt appearances this weekend in our area posted on the GM FYI blog. We are going to see it at the Del Amo Mall on Sunday, 10:00 AM to 8:30 PM.


  16. 16
    mmcc

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    mmcc
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:17 pm)

    I did a google search a few weeks back on “average daily commute” and came up with 16 miles one way. I think it was from the last census but I can’t find the link now. Another study had it at 20 miles one way as I recall. Forty miles should be fine for most people.


  17. 17
    noel park

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    noel park
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:40 pm)

    GXT, #14:

    Because we don’t drive imports.

    If GM had an equivalent of the Prius, we would have bought one long since.


  18. 18
    Mike756

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike756
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:48 pm)

    “That leaves 90% that are paying for too much battery or not getting enough.”

    I’d rather have a little too much battery than not enough. It is a valid point though; I think GM should look at offering the E-REV in different ranges i.e. E-REV-40, E-REV-20 etc.


  19. 19
    Brian M

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Brian M
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:48 pm)

    GXT #13:

    I don’t understand how a 40 mile range alienates people who drive less than that on most days. If someone only drives 10 miles a day, then they only need to plug-in once every 4 days or so. Such a person will undoubtably find the 40 mile range useful for weekends.

    If you want a 10 mile range, buy a GEM (www.gemcar.com) and stop posting your negative, nonsense comments here.


  20. 20
    Steven B

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Steven B
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:57 pm)

    I think I can bring up the idea again now that there are statistics to support my point. The discrepancy between all-electric range/battery capacity and drivers’ needs is what makes V2G important. Optimization of the power grid with a V2G fleet will allow most drivers to have a potential need for 100% usage of their batteries and allow others to plug in their vehicles with reduced need by the utilities to expand generating capacity. Obviously if it is only done with a net profit to driver, with minimal increased hassle, as well as an interface allowing the driver to tell the vehicle their desired range. Dr. Willett Kempton of the University of Delaware, the main V2G guy, calls this proposed system the “payback hybrid.” I’m a huge advocate for it because it will allow full optimization of the grid and the car. And for those who travel more than 40 miles a day, I’m sure that you don’t need a full 80 in your day (for the most part), and even if you do, if you recharge at work then you’ll be able to get.

    I’m only going to college right now, so I take the bus. But my parents, for the record, commute 90 miles a day 5 days a week (for my dad) and about 30 miles (for my mom). My mom can take full advantage of the Volt’s AER to cover her commute. My dad would replace 89% of his gasoline use by buying a Volt and charging it twice a day. Weekend trips would normally not require gasoline.


  21. 21
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (12:59 pm)

    I am equally confused about how driving less than 40 miles a day makes a Volt “suboptimal”.

    If anything it leaves wiggle room (electrons) for running extra (especially unexpected) errands, running hotel loads, etc.


  22. 22
    Tom M

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tom M
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:15 pm)

    Brian #19
    I agree !!! Lets put this in perspective, so if you have a 16,18,or 20 gal. fuel tank you only put two gals. of gas in it because you only go 10 miles ? Give me a break. If you only go ten miles per day you would only need to charge up twice a week. I really don’t care, just get the darn thing out so we can purchase it.


  23. 23
    law

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    law
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:18 pm)

    GXT #13

    I would take a 100 miles all electric range even though my commute is less than 5 miles, it’s not a waste at all, because there will be times when I drive longer distances.

    So I guess 12+ gallon gas tanks are a waste too because people could just gas up more often.

    That’s the most idiotic post I ever read on here.


  24. 24
    Nick

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Nick
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:21 pm)

    I think these numbers are low balling the situation. People were asked about their commute. What about chores, taking children to their activities and social calls? A trip to the doctor or dentist is 30 miles round trip for me. I am a single guy and my commute is 2 miles round-trip, but I still manage to put 100-200 miles per week on my car. That amounts to 14-28 miles of daily driving.


  25. 25
    Nick

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Nick
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:21 pm)

    I think these numbers are low balling the situation. People were asked about their commute. What about chores, taking children to their activities and social calls? A trip to the mall or dentist is 30 miles round trip for me. I am a single guy and my commute is 2 miles round-trip, but I still manage to put 100-200 miles per week on my car. That amounts to 14-28 miles of daily driving.


  26. 26
    Nick

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Nick
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:26 pm)

    These numbers show that a 20-30 mile range would still have broad appeal, even if I am right (in post 25) and the numbers underestimate people’s daily driving.

    So I wish they would just retrofit a Vue, an Astra and/or some other car that has a very broad confirmed market. This would minimize their design and schedule risk and still be transformative.


  27. 27
    james

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    james
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:37 pm)

    is gxt related to pete k. ? lol…

    thanks for the charts, very enlightening.


  28. 28
    Jeffrey

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jeffrey
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:44 pm)

    Even if 40 mile range is not “optimal” for everyone, how does one go about determining what is? I hope GM’s PR people come up with some charts showing how the 40 mile range is optimal not only from the coverage (78% drive


  29. 29
    Jeffrey

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jeffrey
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (1:51 pm)

    Wow! talk about cut off! continued:

    (78% drive less than 40 miles) standpoint, but from the cost to distance ratio. Is 40 miles the best trade off? Since I drive about 46-47 miles a day round trip for work only (where I’m sure I WON’T be able to plug in), I’d love to be able to buy more range, sure, but at what cost? Would going from 40-50 mile range cost hundreds or thousands more for the battery pack? Would having a 20 mile per charge version save a significant amount or be fairly negligable in cost, while reducing the overall benefit of electric only driving?

    I have to agree with ziv @ 10 above – my biggest satisfaction is not going to be saving $$$ on gas (just a great side benefit), it’s knowing my $$$ isn’t going overseas. And if I only have to use gas for 7 miles a day, one gallon should last me for about 7 days, which is how often I have to fill up at 15 gallons per tank right now – 1/15 the gas usage and cost sounds great to me!

    And so we don’t forget, GM *IS* looking at lesser range plug ins – remember the Saturn VUE plug-in we were promised? If that can get the promised 10 miles per charge, why can’t the same tech on a Malibu or similar sized car get close to the 20 miles mentioned above?


  30. 30
    Mike756

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike756
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (2:01 pm)

    I not sure either of the graphs capture daily driving. The GM graph is labled “commute 40 miles or less daily,” but the numbers are exactly the same as the DOT graph which is labled “how many one way miles.” Since the GM graph is based on the DOT study, those numbers are for one way miles. Daily driving would include commutes to and from work, as well as errand trips. I haven’t been able to find a list of daily miles driven broken down by percentage. Does anyone know where we can find this information?


  31. 31
    Rashiid Amul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (2:07 pm)

    #3 Tim
    “As more EVs come online so will more charging opportunities. 40 miles is more than enough range.”

    I don’t agree with this statement. In my opinion, there is no such thing as “enough range”

    Now, I drive 101 miles round trip 5 days a week. I would like more range out of the battery but will be happy to get 40. I can charge twice a day and only burn 2.2 gallons of gas a week. I will need to fill up every 5 weeks or so instead of the twice a week I fill up now. In truth though, my first Volt will most likely go to my wife, who will never have to buy gas. Frankly I don’t care if the commute is 5 miles a day or 100. I think the Volt fits just about everyone who needs a car. It gets 50 mpg while using the ICE. What is wrong with this? Nothing.


  32. 32
    Mike756

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike756
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (2:11 pm)

    I think GXT has a valid point in that a battery is a significantly more expensive “gas tank.” I don’t think it is a valid analogy to say a bigger battery is just like a bigger gas tank.


  33. 33
    Andrew

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Andrew
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (2:35 pm)

    I think we’re all missing the point. GM needed to create a cutoff point based on the tradeoff of cost to build vs. cost to use. As we all know, the more electricity you use and the less gas you use the lower your cost per mile, by a wide margin. The less the cost per mile the easier for one to say “i will save x per day/week/month in gas vs. paying x/month to lease/buy this $30k vehicle. So, for those that use less than 40 miles the math is “how much less would the car be with a smaller battery?” The reality is probably negligible, after all the other costs (other parts, transportation of car to you, tax, amortization of research dollars, covering wages of salesman and everyone involved in building the car etc.) are factored in. In other words, a car is a very hi fixed cost product, and minimizing one part alone will not affect cost, or price, that much.

    For those like me, who commute more than 40 miles a day the math is “how much gas will i need at what price per gallon, so what will my monthly cost be to drive this car vs my existing car. For me that math is $300 a month in a 13mpg Durango, vs something more like $100 a month in the Volt at $4 gas. So i’m saving $200+ a month that i can put toward a new Volt, which will cost more like $350 a month. In other words a brand new car will “cost” me $150 a month, and will protect me from further gas price increases, will allow me a halo of superiuroty vs my fellow motorists and will let me wag my middle finger at the middle east oil barons. A great deal in my book.


  34. 34
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (2:47 pm)

    If you gave it a smaller battery EV enthusiasts and activists would be unhappy.

    If you gave it a larger one, Toyota-hired PR assassins like GXT would complain as well.


  35. 35
    Paul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Paul
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (3:02 pm)

    Certainly people want more range, but what range are people willing to PAY for? I think this would be a slightly more interesting survey question:

    “Say the Volt will cost $20,000 plus $200 for each mile of electric range. Which Volt version would you choose to buy?”

    1) 10 Mile eRange – $22,000
    2) 20 Mile eRange – $24,000
    3) 40 Mile eRange – $28,000
    4) 80 Mile eRange – $36,000
    5) 120 Mile eRange – $44,000

    I would probably buy #3.


  36. 36
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (3:15 pm)

    Also, from an engineering standpoint the larger battery pack makes much more sense because it would extend the lifespan of the pack (at least for its all-electric mode). In other words, pack lifespan is as much a function of pack size as it is a function of the cells themselves.

    For example:

    20miles range, 3000 charge-depleting cycles until the battery begins to degrade.

    20 miles/cycle X 3000 cycles = 60,000 miles

    40 miles/cycle X 3000 cycles = 120,000 miles

    Not that this is a prediction for the Volt, just example numbers.


  37. 37
    David

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (3:37 pm)

    I think it’s important to point out here is the numbers given in the above postings, especially 35 and 36 and only examples or used for discussion sake.

    We must all be patient and wait to see what GM offers. The whole idea of leasing the batteries may be to avoid peoples concerns about buying new technology or a limited lifespan.

    Bottom line, I like the idea of the volt and cannot wait to see what GM is able to create.


  38. 38
    teds

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    teds
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (3:44 pm)

    If you can plug-in at work… 80 mile range! Most parking decks with elevators have outlets. All parking in Canada has outlets. Outlets are cheap to install and charging the Volt cost pennies. So, whatever e-range the Volt has you can count on doubling it as soon as you find a place to plug in while you work!


  39. 39
    wow

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    wow
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (3:45 pm)

    The batteries are so expensive that I’d rather buy a little less batteries than I usually need than spend mmore money to have more batteries than I usually need. After all, it is still supposed to get something like 55mpg after that right? The extra little bit of gas I use in hybrid mode for a few miles won’t add up to much. I just hope the batteries can handle it… :)


  40. 40
    Jim G

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim G
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (3:57 pm)

    This is all based on a phone survey of 1000 people. That is a pretty small sample. I wonder how many of them misjudged their commute distance? It looks like Lyle’s poll is tending to have a flatter curve, with almost 40% having a commute of more than 40 miles. Of course, it would make sense that people with longer commutes would be more interested in this car (and hence are on this site, filling out polls). However, it would also show that many would support a distance closer to 60 miles.


  41. 41
    Guy Incognito

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Guy Incognito
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (4:06 pm)

    [quote comment="18072"]If you can plug-in at work…80 mile range![/quote]
    Thats exactly what I plan to do with my Volt, plug it in at work.
    My average daily mileage is well under 40 miles, even on weekends.
    In theory, my gasoline usage for the Volt will be 0 gallons.


  42. 42
    wow

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    wow
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (4:06 pm)

    I’ll tell you what the whole arguement proves: people want options. Especially since the battery costs so much. I’d say 25, 40, 75 mile options? (Assuming a 25 mile pack would still have enough power and get enough power back during regen braking) Let the rich people who can afford it buy the biggest pack. Let the people who don’t need 40 miles get a smaller pack for way cheaper.

    I’m certainly not going to argue with their 40 mile selection for the one model they are making; I just hope they come out with options eventually. For something this new and untested, we should be happy enough we get this option for now!


  43. 43
    noel park

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    noel park
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (4:08 pm)

    Tom M, #22:

    Amen!


  44. 44
    Rashiid Amul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (4:36 pm)

    Noel #15,

    I agree. I swear it was under 5900 yesterday.
    It probably helped by you mentioning it.


  45. 45
    lkruijsw

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    lkruijsw
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (4:39 pm)

    1 point is forgotten. With a smaller battery pack, GM might get power problems.

    The Volt is 160hp. With a smaller pack, you can’t get the energy for those 160hp.

    The Volt makes use of the much greater power of the new generation batteries (about 5 times higher then previous generation batteries).

    In this way, GM can offer a car with 160hp, without much extra cost in the drive, compared to the Prius. Making use of the full potential of electric motors.

    The Volt becomes a luxury car, compared to the Prius. Allowing to ask a few thousands of dollars more, which is just the amount of money, the Prius is too expensive.

    Lucas


  46. 46
    RB

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    RB
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (4:48 pm)

    Right now I drive about 18 miles round trip to my job each day. I travel on real US highways. To me, “optimal” versus “sub-optimal” means selecting which plug-in EV best meets my needs. Right now I have zero real choices — that is, nothing. When the Volt is available, I will have 1 choice, so that will be the “optimum” one. If GM or Toyota or somebody else puts out more choices, then (oh happy day) I will choose among them.

    GXT, our Toyota rep, is discussing “optimal” as if we can each have a car that is custom designed for each one of us. It is not the real situation. We don’t optimize in that sense, we choose. Phrasing our situation more technically, we optimize in a discretized space, not a continuous one.


  47. 47
    john1701a

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    john1701a
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (4:52 pm)

    [quote comment="18008"]It is sad that it took Chevy to introduce the Volt before the Hybrid makers started talking about plug in Hybrids.[/quote]

    Fortunately, that isn’t what actually happened.

    Talk of plug-in hybrids began way back when 2004 Prius owners discovered the EV mode was included for all, even though the option wasn’t enabled for US customers. Just look up aftermarket augmentation providers like Hymotion (now part of A123) and CalCars, which were building & testing prototypes long before Volt was introduced.

    The hold back from then is still the case now… the battery is simply too expensive.

    JOHN


  48. 48
    lkruijsw

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    lkruijsw
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (5:23 pm)

    Again, the plug in Hybrid, was not a possibility with the previous generation batteries. Not because of the energy density, but of the lack of power.

    If you have a car full of batteries, power is not a problem. But if you reduce the pack, then power becomes a problem.


  49. 49
    Brian M

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Brian M
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (5:25 pm)

    JOHN,

    I think his point is that no major automakers, including Toyota, are making a plug-in yet. Small outfits like the ones you mentioned, while performing an admirable service, will never make a measureable impact on the market.


  50. 50
    Anti-Oil Jihadi

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Anti-Oil Jihadi
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (5:45 pm)

    My camel and I travel 20 miles a day, in snow, up hill (both ways). It wants a volt as much as I do, so it can be put to better uses.

    death to oil – http://www.oiljihad.org


  51. 51
    james

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    james
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (6:13 pm)

    rotf lmao, anti-oil jihadi, that is some funny sh*t, lol…

    gm chose 40 miles based on some decent numbers by the feds transport office. the figures are not based on a poll of this board, lmao.

    i really don’t get it. why would anyone be bitching about these numbers? but the big thing here is that the car goes 40 miles on electric only, this is nice, very, very, nice! but, If you need to drive further (or is it farther, lol) the gas generator kicks in and gets you there (at 50 (?) miles to the gallon no less).

    why is this so hard for some to get? if the volt doesn’t work for you, don’t buy it!
    but for 80% of u.s. citizens, according to the fed trans. dept, it will work just fine.

    law, what are you doing b*tching at a troll, lol…

    death to oil! god bless the e-rev electric chevy volt, god bless nanosolar, god bless a123 and l.g., god bless g.e., bell labs innovations, and a little company called google and God Bless the United States of America!


  52. 52
    Marty McFly

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Marty McFly
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (6:24 pm)

    In an effort to reduce (cost and waste) hows about GM introducing a non plug-in Volt with no pure EV range ?

    Just use a much smaller battery (minimum size to run the E-Flex cycle)…

    50 mpg ain’t too shabby.


  53. 53
    Mark H

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mark H
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (7:09 pm)

    O no !!!!!!
    Marty you must be fairy new to the site!
    this is a very well traveled path you have you have just turned down and tends to bring out the worst in some. :)


  54. 54
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (7:24 pm)

    [quote comment="18097"]In an effort to reduce (cost and waste) hows about GM introducing a non plug-in Volt with no pure EV range ?

    Just use a much smaller battery (minimum size to run the E-Flex cycle)…

    50 mpg ain’t too shabby.[/quote]

    Then you’d just have a Prius competitor instead of a Prius-killer.


  55. 55
    Jimmy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimmy
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (7:54 pm)

    AES 54:

    Well put.


  56. 56
    Marty McFly

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Marty McFly
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (8:20 pm)

    [quote comment="18104"] Then you’d just have a Prius competitor instead of a Prius-killer.[/quote]

    touche…


  57. 57
    Dave G

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave G
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (9:06 pm)

    I think the 40 mile range is excellent. Yes, I drive a somewhat further than that, but this is not about me. This is about getting our country off of oil. So I think the classic 80/20 marketing rule is appropriate. An initial product offering should satisfy 80% of the market. The Volt hits that number almost dead on.

    As for future versions, GM has already said that they would probably offer battery options. But the 1st generation Volt will be 40 miles. We don’t want battery options to delay production!


  58. 58
    canehdian

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    canehdian
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (10:44 pm)

    regardless of how far you go, the volt will still blow any existing hybrid away.
    The prius gets what, 50mpg? (I just checked fueleconomy.gov Its 48/45. I’ll say 50 for argument’s sake.)
    Now. If you go 40 miles in a volt, you use no gas. Infinite MPG.
    Someone said they drive 90miles a day. Fair enough. You’re getting 90 miles on 1 gallon of gas. (40 miles electric + 50 miles @ 50mpg est = 1 gallon.)
    So what’s the big deal? That’s almost double the prius’ offerings. Even if you go 140 miles, thats two gallons of gas for 140 miles. 70mpg. Still 1.5x the prius. You could drive for thousands of miles and still be better than ANY current offering (at least in the sub-50k market… [that means no tesla ;) ]


  59. 59
    Butters

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Butters
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (11:06 pm)

    I’m going to defend Marty #52. I think there should be a non-plug-in flex-fuel vehicle based on E-Flex. I don’t think it should be called Chevy Volt, but it should exist, and there should also be a pure BEV.

    I do believe that 40 miles is right in the ballpark for the debut E-REV (my estimate prior to learning about the Volt was 50 miles, but close enough). I don’t think that a 20-mile pack would be substantially cheaper, but 60 or 80 miles would probably come at a significant premium.

    It seems from the CGI-rendered cutaway image that there might be room for a second pack inline with the first (although electrically in parallel, obviously). I could see there being a market for an 80-mile Volt with two packs at a ~$10K premium.

    But right now, I don’t have a garage or a parking spot with electrical access, and I assume this is fairly common. Is there anything wrong with me for wanting a car that’s powered by fuel but driven by electricity? It seems like it would be so easy to produce a non-plug-in E-Flex vehicle with a small battery (~2kWh) that gets 50+ mpg and has the advantages of electric drive at a lower cost (possibly slipping just under $20K).

    Like I said, don’t confuse the market by calling it a Volt. Call it… the Chevy Farad. Or something.


  60. 60
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (11:32 pm)

    [quote comment="18128"]I’m going to defend Marty #52. I think there should be a non-plug-in flex-fuel vehicle based on E-Flex. [/quote]

    That’s your prerogative as a consumer to desire such a car. However…

    E-Flex is, by definition, a plug-in. Electricity can come from multiple sources. So don’t call it confusion by calling it an E-Flex, either.


  61. 61
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 6th, 2007 (11:56 pm)

    *cause confusion by calling it E-Flex.


  62. 62
    Dave G

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave G
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (12:02 am)

    Butters Says:
    “I think there should be a non-plug-in flex-fuel vehicle based on E-Flex.”

    This has been discussed a lot on the forum. The problem with a non-plug-in Volt is that you still need a pretty big battery. This is because the gas engine is really small and wimpy. The gas engine only supplies about 1/2 the max horsepower of the electric motor. So the idea is for the gas engine to supply only average horsepower. It follows that you need a fairly good sized battery to average out the power. The battery would definately be smaller than the Volt’s 16Kwh, but it would also be a lot bigger than a normal hybrid like the Prius.

    So the bottom line is this: If you want a non-plug-in with great mileage, then a normal parallel hybrid like the Prius would be cheaper to build. By contrast, the Volt is a little more expensive to produce, but it runs on electricity (75 cents/gallon equivelent) and you rarely have to bother going to the gas station.


  63. 63
    Brian M

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Brian M
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (12:05 am)

    Butter, #59:

    So you’re saying GM should be developing three different all-new vehicles with totally revolutionary powertrains?

    Some people are doubting that they can succeed with just one design by 2010… (not me, but 3 is a stretch).


  64. 64
    LyleL

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LyleL
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (12:05 am)

    EVS-23 GM’s Jonathan Lauckner, addresses a plenary session about the Volt. The video shows a cell and the complete battery pack received from LG Chem. See it at:
    http://www.podtech.net/home/4693/evs-23-gms-jonathan-lauckner


  65. 65
    james

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    james
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (12:18 am)

    62 dave g. thanks for the 75 cents equivalent number. is that average or during night only?

    anyway, that means that the volt will kick opec’s a*s no matter how much they open the spigots (if they do), and how low the price of oil might fall as a result.


  66. 66
    james

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    james
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (12:22 am)

    my #27 post should have read “doug k.”…


  67. 67
    Scott H

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Scott H
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (12:44 am)

    There’s been much talk here today about the 40 mile range and the possibility of making other versions with a smaller battery (thus smaller range) to cut costs. Well gentlemen, let’s not forget about the hydrogen fuel cell version. It DOES have a smaller battery, with a 20 mile range if I remember correctly. So, that should mean a battery that’s half the size, thus half the capacity, which translates to half the range. Presto, 20 miles. So, that means a system for working in a smaller battery is already taking place, even though it’s for the fuel cell version. So, maybe not the first year, but hopefully soon after the initial production has started, a version with a smaller battery pack will be available. It should be much cheaper than the much larger pack, and make a broader customer appeal, especially to people who live just a few miles or so from work and have no real need for the large battery.

    So, a 20-mile and a 40-mile version for the first generation Volt. Sounds damn good to me.

    Death to oil.


  68. 68
    Grizzly

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Grizzly
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (1:51 am)

    GXT Says:
    December 6th, 2007 at 11:58 am Quote

    This is very interesting data.

    At the risk of sounding negative, this chart supports Toyota and Honda’s view that the Volt is the wrong direction.

    ****

    Then rather than posting here, you and your fellow Toyota execs should be toasting w/ champagne.


  69. 69
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (2:23 am)

    I got screen captures from the video that shows the battery pack. Posting in a few secs.


  70. 70
    james

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    james
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (2:32 am)

    scoot h 67. i’m liking hydrogen also…http://www.clean-mobile.com/

    grizzly 68. lmao my friend, you and oil-jihadi, good stuff, lol…

    does anyone else get the feeling that gxt is actually doug k. incognito?

    tnx to aes…


  71. 71
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (2:33 am)

    Bit blurred, but here are some stills from the Podcast video of Lauckner, and the CPI battery pack:

    http://futuredrive.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/compact-power-pack.jpg
    http://futuredrive.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/cpi3.jpg


  72. 72
    Butters

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Butters
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (5:56 am)

    @AES 60: My impression was that E-Flex refers to the electric drive train, which may be fed by a variety of energy back-ends. A configuration with only a gas engine might still be called E-Flex, although not an E-REV. It’s not a hybrid, as the electric motor is the only means of propulsion. It might be called something along the lines of a fuel-electric vehicle or FEV.

    @Dave 62: If the gas engine’s maximum sustained power output is significantly less than that of the electric motor, then no amount of battery capacity can keep the motor fed under continuous heavy demand indefinitely. It can only prolong the inevitable power starvation in charge-sustaining mode. But in the E-REV, the battery is floating above 30% charge, while the FEV battery would float above 60% or even higher. Although the battery is smaller, the buffering headroom would be about double in terms of percentage.

    With the money saved on the battery, the engine could be beefed up modestly. The parallel hybrid is disgusting technology. Just because some people might not have the opportunity to plug in their cars doesn’t mean that they should have obsolete mechanical transmissions, with their associated maintenance and efficiency costs.

    @Brian 63: Well, they don’t have to release all three models simultaneously. I do believe that the Volt E-REV is the best way to debut the platform. The fuel-only model would likely come later in order to reach lower price points and leverage economies of scale for the core drive train components. The battery-only model would follow once the energy density scales up to about 3 times the current level.

    But it’s important to realize that this is only one totally revolutionary powertrain that is explicitly designed to accommodate a flexible combination of energy back-ends. Maybe not on day one, but certainly within the first 5 years.

    On the whole, I think our expectations for our big American corporations are pathetic. GM’s Volt program sets a totally reasonable timeline. I don’t think that such a resourceful company should have any trouble making this happen. We’ve been made to believe that everything takes an ungodly amount of time to come to market, so it comes as something of a surprise when vendors roll up their sleeves and actually execute.

    If JFK were president today, he’d promise to put a man on the moon within 25 years, not 10. It used to take us 4-5 years to put a prototype fighter jet into active service, but 17 years after the F-22 first flew, it’s still in development. What the heck is wrong with our American blue-chip industrials, and why are we so willing to apologize for their sluggish execution?


  73. 73
    domenick

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    domenick
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (7:22 am)

    Little late to this party….put me down for a 15 mile daily commute. 40 miles sounds perfect to me. If I didn’t have to buy gas, I’d drive a bit more.


  74. 74
    David

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (8:03 am)

    If we’re taking a survey my daily commute is 24 miles. I also drive another 6 to 8 miles picking up my little ones from school.

    A 40 miles range works very well for me.

    Of course I cannot go without saying this… if GM plans on leasing the batteries then I fully expect the Volt to cost a lot less than 30K.


  75. 75
    Geoff Olynyk

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Geoff Olynyk
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (9:03 am)

    If you want a non-plug-in series hybrid, can’t you just buy a Volt and just, uh, not plug it in? And then the battery management system will keep the battery at 30% charge using the generator?

    It seems like even if GM recommends this not be done, you’d be able to get aftermarket software that has the generator keep the battery closer to ~50 or 60%.

    Also, some of you people scare me with the “death to oil” comments. Why does the Volt have to be a weapon to use against the Middle East, why can’t it just be a really cool piece of technology? Also remember that the USA’s largest source of oil is Canada, where production costs are much higher than, say, Saudi Arabia.

    If the series-hybrid revolution really takes off and the price of oil plummets, it’s the Alberta tar sands that are going to close up production first, not the state-owned Middle Eastern oil companies.


  76. 76
    Rashiid Amul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (10:13 am)

    No offense to our Canadian neighbors but….
    -Death to Oil. It’s not just a slogan.
    It is necessary.

    Anti Oil Jihadi, “My camel and I travel 20 miles a day, in snow, up hill (both ways). It wants a volt as much as I do, so it can be put to better uses.”

    Try using the two-hump camel. They have more power. :)


  77. 77
    Demetrius

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Demetrius
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (10:22 am)

    The most important thing to realize is that for most people, an electric vehicle will be their SECOND car. As such, they can judge when they should use the ICE or E-Flex.

    I don’t think GM or anyone has EVER created a commuter car that is perfect for 80% of commuters so range is only one factor in many that affects choice.

    The three biggest hurdles for Volt is price, price, price. Range is second to price – get it below 25K and you win. 35K you loose – simple as that.


  78. 78
    noel park

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    noel park
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (11:16 am)

    Anti-Oil Jihadi, #50:

    Did you see the camel on ER last night? Very cool, even if it did bite one of the doctors! Nasty bite.

    Maybe you could figure out how to sic yours on any “trolls” who surface here.

    Lyle:

    I have to say it again, numbering the comments is great. That’s something else GM could learn from you. No numbers on Fastlane or FYI.


  79. 79
    GXT

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    GXT
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (11:53 am)

    As Paul pointed out, the battery is not free. It is true that anyone who drives short amounts will use no fuel. But it is also true that they will be hauling around THOUSANDS (perhaps even $9,000 depending on battery cost and distance driven) of battery that they may only use on a rare occasion (and even then it will only be useful for 40 miles at most).

    If 29% of people drive only a max of 10 miles per day for work (and assuming 20 miles/day on the weekend) then they are only using 85 gallons/year with a 55MPG hybrid. When it comes time for consumers to put down their money, it will be a rare consumer who buys a $30K Volt over a sub-20K hybrid under such circumstances.

    I understand that a variable sized battery is not in the cards right now, but that is what will be needed (or INCREDBILY cheap batteries) for the Volt to appeal to such people.


  80. 80
    AES

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    AES
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (1:28 pm)

    [quote comment="18227"]But it is also true that they will be hauling around THOUSANDS (perhaps even $9,000 depending on battery cost and distance driven) of battery that they may only use on a rare occasion (and even then it will only be useful for 40 miles at most).
    [/quote]

    Important distinction:

    You’re using a large percentage of the battery pack’s POWER on a rather consistent basis. You’re using all of its ENERGY slightly less frequently.


  81. 81
    Dwayne

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dwayne
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (1:40 pm)

    Don’t forget. If you have extra range that you don’t need, you are wasteing alot of energy carrying around unneeded batteries. It is easy to show that E-REV is greener than the Telsa with a 250 mile range – just because it is lighter.

    If you always drive your car on the bottom half of the tank you will get better milage than if you always drive on the top half of the tank.


  82. 82
    Paul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Paul
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (1:53 pm)

    GXT 79:

    Sub $20K hybrid? The ones I see for sale are in the mid to upper $20′s, or more.

    Also battery technology has been getting better and cheaper for 20 years. With the auto industry becoming a major consumer of batteries, I expect that to accelerate. In ten years, the cost of the battery system will be a non-issue.

    And although your concerns about excess battery capacity are true, those same concerns also apply to excess ICE engine capacity. Every car’s engine can make much more horsepower than what most people use most of the time. Only occasionally do people use their engine’s full power, yet they payed for it and also pay extra to fuel it. So your concerns about excess capacity must really apply to every vehicle on the road, not just the Volt.


  83. 83
    David

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (2:13 pm)

    Based on some of the recent comments I am starting to think (sarcasticly) that…

    Since I have never used my airbags, my spare tire, and my sunb visor mirror that they add unnecessary weight to my car, thereby reducing my gas mileage.

    My point now is… Why not wait and let GM put a Volt on the market before redesigning it for them. Whatever the marketplace demands then either GM or someone else will make it available.


  84. 84
    Anti-Oil Jihadi

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Anti-Oil Jihadi
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (2:57 pm)

    Noel #78

    I didn’t see ER last night, but I’m not surprised. When I said ‘better uses’ for my camel, what I have in mind is a new rug for my tent.

    Rashiid:

    The 2 hump models are twice as difficult. Thus a fundamental trade off. Such is the case with all transportation sources. At least I utilize carbon neutral fuel already! It’s methane emissions (and lots of it) may still contribute to global warming. So I don’t claim to be 100% green.

    death to oil!
    http://www.oiljihad.org


  85. 85
    Marty McFly

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Marty McFly
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (6:26 pm)

    [quote comment="18192"] Also, some of you people scare me with the “death to oil” comments. Why does the Volt have to be a weapon to use against the Middle East, why can’t it just be a really cool piece of technology?[/quote]

    I agree, that phrase does seem a bit extreme. Then again, I’m not buying the Volt because of $3.00/gallon fuel prices or for a more green Earth…


  86. 86
    Marty McFly

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Marty McFly
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (6:30 pm)

    Butters #59

    Hmmm, a low cost FEV Volt just might be the ticket for apartment dwellers like me…


  87. 87
    Jeffrey

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jeffrey
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (6:56 pm)

    I think we’re all missing GXT’s point (and public service) in 79 – he’s finally given us all that *REALISTIC* reason to justify not buying a Tesla! Since I don’t have a 250 mile commute each day, I’d be paying for all that unused capacity, so therefore I should go buy a Prius… I *REALLY* wanted a Tesla, but I guess now I can quit saving that $5,000 for my downpayment and still feel good about myself, huh?

    Back to the subject – If one successful model now paves the way for multiple models down the road, the Volt (as proposed) is brilliant, period.


  88. 88
    Anti-Oil Jihadi

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Anti-Oil Jihadi
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (7:49 pm)

    Geoff #75:

    “Also, some of you people scare me with the “death to oil” comments. Why does the Volt have to be a weapon to use against the Middle East”

    Ever heard of the arab oil embargo?
    Well, payback is a bitch.

    Ever heard of Islamic terrorism, Iran’s clandestine nuclear program, hezbollah, or wahhabi islam? How about Saudi Arabia and their wonderful culture of tolerance?

    If not, then you can always hate oil because it’s bad for the environment.

    death to oil, inshallah.
    http://www.oiljihad.org


  89. 89
    james

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    james
     Says

     

    Dec 7th, 2007 (7:54 pm)

    tnx oil-jihadi, well put, i’d throw in 911…

    death to oil!


  90. 90
    james

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    james
     Says

     

    Dec 8th, 2007 (8:02 am)

    geoff 75, marty 85 “Also, some of you people scare me with the “death to oil” comments.” “we import more from canada”

    geoff tried to point out that we import more oil from canada than from any other country.

    geoff was, in a way correct, but, opec is made up of 13 (?) countries, all acting as one country. and we import nearly triple the amount of oil from this (one) country (opec) than from anywhere else.

    one of the volts first “tag lines” was energy independence. for some of us, that means death to oil (from opec).

    death to oil! god bless the e-rev electric chevy volt, god bless nanosolar, god bless a123 and l.g., god bless g.e., bell labs innovations, and a little company called google and God Bless the United States of America!


  91. 91
    law

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    law
     Says

     

    Dec 8th, 2007 (9:04 am)

    #88,

    don’t forget that chavez wants to destroy our country. We should work to at least ban heavy crude, it’s very bad for our environment.


  92. 92
    David

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David
     Says

     

    Dec 8th, 2007 (10:58 am)

    James, #90: Those Canadians are pretty scary. Besides, they are always fighting during Hockey games.

    I have a question, is there anyone that posts here that DOES NOT believe we need to reduce our use of oil?

    Back on subjectl the Volt is the first vehicle that can accomplish that for me and my driving practices. Based on the survey; the Volt can also accomplish this for 78% of the people on days they commute. Your daily commute is the distance driven when you are away from home. Home is presumably your primary plug in charging source. Other charging sources are a plus, other driving necessary is a minus.


  93. 93
    Robert

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Robert
     Says

     

    Mar 20th, 2010 (6:01 am)

    Am I the only person up my tree… sure seems like it