GM Calls the Volt an E-REV
We have had spirited discussion along the way about exactly what the Volt is. Common misrepresentations have included calling it a hybrid or series hybrid, or more commonly a plug-in hybrid. Bob Lutz has specifically said the Volt is not a hybrid (see post).
Calling a car a hybrid signifies that it’s driveshaft can be turned both by an electric motor and a combustion engine. A plug-in hybrid is a car that has extended electrical capacity supplied from the grid allowing for extended driving in all-electric mode. Modified Priuses and the upcoming Plug-in Saturn VUE are examples of those.
EVs and BEVs are cars that only have an electric motor and a rechargeable battery. They usually have overall limited ranges. The Tesla and EV-1 are examples.
GM toyed with different terms to describe the Volt. They have decided on the term E-REV (with the dash, pronounced ee-rehv), which stands for extended-range electric vehicle. They like the marketing opportunities of “REV” (i.e. E-REVolution)
The graphic above is a screenshot from a lecture just given by Tony Posawatz and Denise Gray on the current state of Volt development. You will soon see the video here in it’s entirety (24 minutes long).
So this nomenclature issue is now settled.
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November 23rd, 2007 at 11:03 am
It makes sense, thank you Lyle
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:41 am
To be painfully honest about the situation, we know the argument will always be to call Volt something other than “hybrid”. The 2004 Detroit Auto Show comments against small hybrids are quite contradictory to what’s happening now.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/06/pf/autos/detroit_gm_hybrids/index.htm
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:59 am
E-REV, I like it. The only problem is the media. Once they find a word they like, they never let go of it, even if they know it’s a wrong term to use.
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:15 pm
We’ll have to see how it pans out. If the press finds E-REV to be too clunky, they’ll choose their own term and say that “GM calls it an E-REV which means…but we prefer to use the term ______.” We’ll have to find out how the media calls it, or it may end up being a term that’s made synonymous with others. But again, GM can only really name the brands and models, not the tech itself. I always use the term “flex-fuel,” but I think that might be a brand name for that type of engine, because when I hear or read it in the media they use the term “flexible fuel.” But it is nice to have one official term that differentiates it from PHEV or plug-in hybrid.
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Even if I like the EREV name, Series PHEV still works for me. The hybrid refers to the combination of battery and gas energy storage, not the connection to the wheels (that’s the series vs. parallel part). If you want to be picky about it, you have to call it an E-ICEREV to differentiate it from an electric, fuel cell range enhanced vehicle (E-FCREV). Marketing people can argue over the handle, I just want the car.
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:24 pm
To call E-Flex a “hybrid” only serves to demonstrate ignorance. Fortunately, ignorance is curable unlike stupidity or stubbornness.
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:49 pm
I like it. Its about time someone explained it.
November 23rd, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Great! Now we have a name. That will go a long way toward spreading the news.
Just to be clear, are there any other E-REVs on the horizon? Is the Aptera an E-REV? How about the Volvo?
November 23rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm
From what I can tell here:
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/06/volvo-enters-the-plugin-car-arena/
The Volvo ReCharge fits GMs definition of an E-REV. Can anyone confirm of deny this?
Also the Aptera site talks about the need for the engine to come on before the electric range is finished, so this doesn’t sound like an E-REV.
November 23rd, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Tim
If they want to change the name of the architcture, fine. But please don’t pretend like people are mistaken for calling it a hybrid. The fact is this the E-Flex design was being called series hybrid for a long time.
http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-center-how-hybrid-cars-work-under-the-hood-2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Vehicle_Drivetrains
I think the whole discussion is silly, but I never have understood marketing.
November 23rd, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Lyle
“Calling a car a hybrid signifies that it’s driveshaft can be turned both by an electric motor and a combustion engine.”
“Common misrepresentations have included calling it a hybrid or series hybrid, or more commonly a plug-in hybrid.”
I don’t think these statements are accurate or fair. A quick google search will show that the Volts design has in fact been called a series hybrid. I can understand GM’s desire to redefine the name of the design, but I feel kind of irritated about the way this has been handled.
November 23rd, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Mike756- Those people who called E-Flex a “series hybrid” were simply mistaken. It’s very much like calling a train an “iron horse” or an airplane a “bird”.
A series “hybrid” which is actually a series-electric has a generator that provides power directly to electric motors and breaking energy is exhausted via resistance heaters which of course saves wear on brake pads.
E-Flex however gets 100% of its power from a large battery which MAY be recharged via an onboard generator, but is USUALLY is recharged via the grid for 8 out of 10 trips because 82% of all trips are less than 40 mile long. The “range extender” is used to keep the battery cost and weight down while calming the fears that have kept electric cars from becoming commonplace.
Mike, an apple may be a fruit, but it is still an apple, and not an orange.
As far as the range-extender is concerned, this external combustion engine with exhaust much like a shop space heater looks very interesting! http://www.cyclonepower.com/
It has the efficiency of the Diesel engine, Full torque from Zero RPM so no transmission is required, runs on any combination or mixture of combustible liquid fuels incl. kero, gas, vegoil, biodiesel, methanol, ethanol etc., its lighter and more compact than an ICE, Few moving parts, very cheap to make, recycles it’s own heat so no radiator is required and fully combusts it’s fuel so not muffler or pollution controls are required. Exhaust temp from the liquid side is clean and around 120-deg. F, and from the combustion side is abound 300-deg. F.
Hey, you technical types! This requires a good look see.
November 23rd, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Tim
I can see you didn’t read the links I provided.
“In a series hybrid, the electric motor is is the only means of providing power to get your wheels turning. The motor receives electric power from either the battery pack or from a generator run by a gasoline engine. A computer determines how much of the power comes from the battery or the engine/generator set. Both the engine/generator and regenerative braking recharge the battery pack.”
Your argument that the size of the Volt’s battery means it is no longer a hybrid is absurd.
November 23rd, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Mike, I’ve read them many times. Wikipedia is often filled with bad information so why don’t you log on and add some of your own. Hybridcenter.org calls everything a hybrid. If they had it their way every battery electric car would also be a “hybrid” because the electricity came from many different sources like coal, hydro, wind and breaking regeneration. Actually, using that logic a car running on E-5 is also a “hybrid” because some of that energy is renewable or calling a car with Belt-Alternator Starter a “hybrid” because it shuts off the engine at stop lights. Absurd!
“Hybrid” has become a catch-all phrase for ignorant greenies.
The fact is that it’s GM’s baby and they have the right to name it. The next time you invent something, you get to name it. If you don’t like it, go buy a Prius.
Anyway, your attempt at confusing hybrids like the Prius which is an ICE vehicle with a little electric helper motor with E-Flex which is a 100% Battery Electric Car with a range-extender isn’t helping matters. Remove the ICE in a Prius and you’re left with a golf cart. Remove the ICE in an E-Flex car and you still have a BEV-40.
However, I’m happy to live in the USA where everyone has the right to make a fool of themselves.
November 23rd, 2007 at 5:55 pm
I like this site because we can agree to disagree on certain subjects. I believe we can all agree on one thing. We are all (almost all) looking forward to the day we can buy the Volt.
Only 1089 days and counting until we will be able to buy the Volt.
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:04 pm
I’m fine with agreeing to disagree; I’m not fine with being called a fool. I want the Volt as much as anybody, I just don’t tolerate BS well.
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Tim
Here are some more links for you to digest.
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jan07/4848
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/autos/0701/gallery.fuel_future/8.html
http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2007/11/07/gm-volt-battery-delivered/
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:32 pm
And for something really interesting… look at http://www.autoworld.com/news/GMC/Series_Hybrid.htm … it’s an article that appears copyright no later than 2001 (and indeed the http headers indicate the page was last modified “Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:34:06 GMT”) about a series hybrid version of GM’s EV-1!!!!! And it says the article was “Contributed by GM-Electric Vehicles”.
Was GM working on an EV-1 with a range extender before CA’s ZEV mandate was gutted and GM dropped their EV program?
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:33 pm
And according to http://www.azuredynamics.com/series_hybrid_vehicles.htm the USPS has a series hybrid on the roads in Boston since 2 years ago (Fall 2005).
And series hybrid buses have been tested in New York City at least over a year ago, see http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2006_Feb_27/ai_n16086162
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:44 pm
I think that Tim has a very good point. Regardless of what’s been written, I’ve never been comfortable technically with calling the Volt a “Hybrid”.
“Computer” is often a “catch all” phrase for embedded controllers like the PCM in most modern cars, but technically speaking, a computer it is not. While that may suffice for a basic explanation of what a PCM does, classifying vehicles is another story.
The enthusiasm on this site for the Volt is not because it happens to be a good looking variant of the “common” Hybrid. WE understand the significant differences, most notably why the Volt will wax the Prius at both the stoplight and the pump and why.
Working backwards, would anyone think that adding a range extender to the EV1 would instantly make it a Hybrid?
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Re #20
The reason for your uneasyness is that because the only mass produced hybrids on the market thus far have been parallel hybrids, that when you hear the unqualified word “hybrid” you think parallel.
However the Volt, which would otherwise be just a BEV, is a hybrid os the “series” type. You ask if the EV-1 with a range extender would be… I pointed you to an article that appears from by written by GM back in 2001 that does correctly call the result a “series hybrid”.
I also suggest you read up on the dictionary definition of “hybrid”, ie. http://www.answers.com/hybrid?nafid=3 …
“Something, such as a computer or power plant, having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results” or “Something of mixed origin or composition”
In any case it doesn’t really matter, a rose by any other name is still a rose. And GM isn’t going to be able to stop others from calling it’s Volt and the other series hybrids what they are.
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:14 pm
GM is presuming to play Webster for the purposes of marketing and distinguishing themselves for other brands and this car from its other hybrids. I’ll happily play along and use the E-REV nomenclature. What the heck.
Whether or not they can get everyone else to follow is another story, but to me this new word invention is at least a shade better than Humpty Dumptey’s:
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone,” it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master — that’s all.”
… if for no other reason than that it furthers the cause of getting the public to accept the basic concept of electric as the main means of powering cars. And that’s a bigger deal long term for both our country and the world than GM’s marketing ambitions.
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:14 pm
I’ve just stumbled upon the Volt after previously designing an “E-REV” in my head and wondering why other “hybrids” don’t follow this approach. But I’m a tiny bit unclear on one issue, and perhaps somebody here knows the answer:
Is there any bypass circuit that allows the motor to draw current from the generator, for example during periods of high driver demand, or is the motor limited to the maximum discharge current of the battery? In other words, we know the fuel backend is a range-extender, but can it also be a power-booster?
My imaginary E-REV uses four hub motors driven by a quadraphonic power oscillator, with an available 2WD economy trim. But I see the Volt opts for a single axial motor. Why do we suppose they made this decision?
I actually like the E-Flex name better than E-REV. I think that the fundamental advantage of the unified electric drive platform is the flexibility of coupling it with various energy backends. From a simple BEV to an elaborate plug-in hydrogen fuel cell vehicle with solar glass, the underlying drivetrain can handle just about anything. Extended range is great. Flexible range is better.
In particular, I think that GM should seriously consider introducing a non-plug-in vehicle alongside the Volt. Many people don’t have convenient electrical access where they park their cars. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t reap the advantages of electric drive. With a small battery or capacitor optimized for charge-sustaining mode, this model would bring the platform to lower price-points and therefore leverage economies of scale that would cascade over to the Volt.
While we’re on the topic of names, I suggest Chevy Farad for the fuel-only version and Chevy Lion (pronounced “lie-on”) for the electric-only model.
Nice blog! I can’t believe I’m actually excited about an American car!
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Jeff M #21.
I have read it many times and it is exactly why the Volt is not a Hybrid.
Here is the def from a dictionary:
b: something (as a power plant, vehicle, or electronic circuit) that has two different types of components performing essentially the same function.
“Two different types of components performing essentially the same function”, there you have it. In a parallel or Hybrid both the gas and electric propel the vehicle. In an E-REV they DON’T perform the same function because the gas engine does not propel the vehicle and it’s function is therefore *not* the same.
Case closed by definition.
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:19 pm
jeff 20 ,you quote the dictionary, and then do not follow what the quote states;
“Something, such as a computer or power plant, having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results”
this says that the power plant has 2 kinds of components that produce the same/similar results…however, the 2 components in the volt do Not provide the same result.
the electric motor’s “result” is to power the vehicle, the very small gas engine is used to recharge or “power” the electric motor. these two very different items, do not “produce the same result”.
nice work by gm and lyle…
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:21 pm
jeff 20; therefore the case is Now “closed by definitiion”…
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Yes, the Volt has been called a plug-in hybrid for a while, and technically it’s still accurate. It’s also technically accurate to call a go-cart and a Porche both “motor vehicles”.
The real problem is with public perception. To explain, let’s imagine fast-forwarding the clock 3 years into the future. Toyota will proabbly have 3 different PHEV models in their Prius line. GM will have a PHEV Saturn Vue. There will also be others. All of these will have a wimpy 7-10 mile electric range. In addition, the gas engine will turn on whenever you step on it. From my point of view, these cars won’t be worth the trouble of plugging in. GM knows this, and have anticipated PHEVs having an initially bad reception.
The Volt will behave completely differently, so GM wants a name that is completely different, so as to distance the Volt from the inital crop of PHEVs. I think this is a wise decision.
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:26 pm
oops to grizz 24, didn’t mean to step on your toes bud, i was typing while your post came in…lol
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:31 pm
dave g 27, please see the actual dictionary definitions of the word “hybrid” in the 21, 24 and 25 posts, the volt is not a hybrid.
it is not powered as a hybrid (the two components do Not power the vehicle).
this is not a gm definition, it is a dictionary definition, and the phrase e-rev will catch on nicely thank you…
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:56 pm
The Volt most certainly is a hybrid.
It is defined as a ’serial plug-in electric hybrid’.
Regardless of what Bob Lutz or Lyle or the rest of them define it, thats what it is.
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Guy 30,
You can call the Volt whatever you want but that does not make it so. You could call it a locomotive if you want, but that doesn’t change what it is.
It is not Maximum Bob or Lyle that have defined the Volt as not belonging to the group known as “hybrids”, it’s the dictionary, and they are only respecting the definition.
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:23 pm
I like the E-REV name, it puts the emphasis on the electric aspect of the car which is the future … but its configuration is still that of a series PHEV.
GM themselves have referred to the Volt as a hybrid vehicle
http://www.gm.com/explore/technology/news/2007/fuel_cells/volt_011707.jsp
Please note the label on the video.
“More information…
Watch video on Volt Hybrid Electric Concept Car Watch a video on the Volt Hybrid Electric Concept Car”
At the end of the day, if GM can make good on their promises, they can call this thing a “Big Bob” for all I care.
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:33 pm
FYI: The “Father” of the PHEV is one Prof. Andy Frank of UCal(Davis). Since he invented most of the technology involved, he gets to write the definitions. The following article is a good read for anyone interested in the history of PHEVs.
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/54788?fulltext=true&print=yes#54880
In it you will find the following quote.
“One possible strategy is to use what is called a series configuration, whereby the engine is employed only to generate electricity, which is then used to charge the battery and to power one or more electric motors coupled to the wheels.”
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Yes, the Volt is a ’serial plug-in electric hybrid’, and the thing you blow your nose in is really called a “facial tissue”, not a Kleenex.
But how do you explain to the average Joe the concept of a serial hybrid? They’ll probably think it runs on Wheaties. Trust me, once the inital crop of PHEVs come out, you all will want a different name.
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Some of you need to re-read the dictionary definition….
“2a; Something of mixed origin or composition.”
“2b; Something, such as a computer or power plant, having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results”
Both of these fit. Both the Prius and the Volt are a mix of battery electric motor and internal combustion engine (ICE). 2 different power plants, ie. battery, and ICE. Both working for same/similiar result (move the vehicle).
If you don’t want to call the Volt a hybrid, then you also can’t call the Prius (or any other parallel hybrid) one either.
But even as early as 6 years ago GM refered to a vehicle configuration that’s the same as the Volt (and others) as a series hybrid. Once again see http://www.autoworld.com/news/GMC/Series_Hybrid.htm
And 5 years ago (Jan 2003) the “Northeast Sustainable Energy Association” details the differences between the two types of hybrids, see http://www.nesea.org/greencarclub/factsheets_hybridelectric.pdf
And look what else I just found… a slide show by Ford Motor Company from Feb. 2003, on page 6 titled … “Range Extender Hybrids (Series Hybrid)”, on the epa.gov website, see http://www.epa.gov/oar/caaac/mstrs/ford.pdf
It’s clear that if big auto, big oil, the Bush admin, etc didn’t kill California’s ZEV mandate (when they sued and got the CARB to gut the mandate), the big auto makers were all working on adding range extenders to their EV’s, and calling them series hybrids.
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:01 pm
[quote comment="16004"]Yes, the Volt is a ’serial plug-in electric hybrid’, and the thing you blow your nose in is really called a “facial tissue”, not a Kleenex.
[/quote]
Bad analogy Dave. If you changed the first part to read that the “Volt is an electric car” then your sentence is correct.
What you’ve written is like saying that a Chimpanzee is a Monkey. Chimpanzees and Monkeys are both Primates but they are not interchangeable nor is a Chimp a sub class of Monkey. A Chimp is not a monkey.
Both Hybrids and E-REV’s are forms of electric vehicles, but regardless of who invented it or where it’s been written in the past…for the last time, an E-REV is not a sub-class or “type” of Hybrid.
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Folks should really see google search results for electric vehicle and “series hybrid”, ie. http://tinyurl.com/3y3ogm
Just found another reference to series hybrid dating back to 2003 in a thesis paper… http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/5005/
In any case, there are over 100,000 pages found by google
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Grizzly,
You are incorrect again. Just because today GM says it’s not, does not make it so.
The Volt is a series hybrid, which is a specific type of hybrid. Remove the batteries or remove the range extender, then and only then would you be correct to say the Volt is not a hybrid, but then it also wouldn’t be a Volt.
So GM, Ford, and everyone else who refered to range extended battery EV’s as series hybrids is suddenly wrong because GM now wants to play a marketing game?
Guess you believe in the republican doctrine, repeat the same lie often enough and maybe some folks will eventually believe it.
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:42 pm
As per my previous example, just because many people over time, even educated people, have referred to Chimpanzees as “monkeys” does not make them so, any more than those who have referred to peanuts as nuts. You consult the definition, and neither is correct. A Chimp is a primate, but not a monkey and a peanut is a legume. I’m sure if I combed the internet, I could find all sorts of mistakes like those.
The definition of a Hybrid once again from the dictionary:
b: something (as a power plant, vehicle, or electronic circuit) that has two different types of components performing essentially the same function.
The electric motor and gas engine in the Volt do *NOT* have the same function. One propels the vehicle, the other produces electricity. In a Hybrid both the gas motor and electric motor both do the same thing, they turn the wheels.
Then you have the argument that they both have to do with moving the vehicle in one way or another. So does the starter motor in my current vehicle, for without it I could not drive the vehicle. It’s a motor, and it’s battery powered, so therefore, my current V-6 sedan is a hybrid. Not so.
The Volt is not a hybrid and doesn’t act or perform like one. GM is justified in making the distinction.
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Butters 23, from info on the Tesla web site wheel hub motors would require a different crash test, that does not exsist. Wheel hub motors would be really neat on an off-road I.E. 4×4 electric jeep type of EV. I think in the future we will see more wheel hub motors, but to get these EV’s out on time a single motor is easier to do.
November 23rd, 2007 at 10:28 pm
I can imagine a future conversation:
Have you heard about this great new car called the Volt?
No, what about it?
It’s an electric vehicle with a gasoline engine range extender.
Oh, you mean a series hybrid?
Yeah, but don’t tell anyone I told you; I’m not allowed to say that.
Whatever. Tomorrow I will call it the E-REV, respecting GM’s choice, but I hope this is the end of nonsense.
November 23rd, 2007 at 10:34 pm
What an incredible discussion. I don’t think the general public is going to care if the car is a series hybrid or an E-REV. The Electrical engineers and Mechanical engineers of this site might, but that is probably about it. E-REV sounds like a good marketing label to use. GM has 3 years to help educate the masses on what E-REV can do for them. By the time November 2010 comes, people may know nothing but the fact that they want to buy an E-REV which gets them 40 miles without gasoline. They probably won’t care how it works beyond that. The thing they have to remember is: Chevy Volt,
Chevy Volt, Chevy Volt.
November 23rd, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Grizzly (is that your real name?)
I don’t know why you like to continue to focus on primates when addressing my replies, but continue to ignore GM’s own 2001 writing, and Ford’s 2003 slideshow, who call plans of their range extended EV’s as “series hybrids”.
But if you want to keep attention on your analogy to distract from the facts… replace hybrid with “primate”, parallel hybrid with “monkey”, and series hybrid with “ape”. Apes and Monkey’s are both “primates”, just like the Prius and Volt are both hybrids.
GM is more than welcome to use any marketing terms they wish, to help them differentiate the Volt, but that doesn’t change what it is, which GM and Ford themselves both correctly called series hybrids.
In any case, I have yet to see GM officially claim that the Volt is not a series hybrid. The graphic Lyle partly shows only shows that GM is trying to position the Volt as something that is not a PHEV. But even that graphic has mis-information claiming a PHEV has “medium” electrical power and onboard electrical storage, and “limited” electrical drive, while the Volt (E-REV) has “high” e-power and storage and full electrical drive.
Since when does the definition of a PHEV dictate electrical power or storage (batteries), and I could only guess what GM now means by “limited” electrical drive (they are obviously trying to brand any PHEV has having to be a parallel hybrid which is also blatently false).
The only context in which the slide may be correct, is if the slide is only comparing GM drive systems as implemented in their vehicles.
November 23rd, 2007 at 10:52 pm
It will also be interesting to see if there is a trademark fight…
http://erevinc.com/
though they are in different markets so there shouldn’t be confusion, and even if so, EREV Inc. looks like they wouldn’t have the legal resources to fight it anyway.
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:08 pm
jeff 38, i have followed your posts, and most of them are incorrect to one degree or another.
how many times does the grizz man have to repeat the dictionary definition of a hybrid before you get it? googling stuff is great, i do it all of the time, but just because it pops up on google doesn’t make it correct.
but what shows your greatest amount of ignorance is your quote;
“Guess you believe in the republican doctrine, repeat the same lie often enough and maybe some folks will eventually believe it.” this quote was not the republican doctorine, it was actually the saying of a famous left winger/liberal named lenin (not john lennon, lenin the communist of russia, vladimir lenin), which inspired the now famous “i never f*cked monica” lie that was told over and over by that other famous liberal and his wife (of course she said “he” never, not “i” never, but you never know, lol. and the quote was also used in the same context as you by that famous man of action michael moore, i’m pretty certain that is where you got your great line of thought from for this quote.
anyway, the volt is not a hybrid.
the volt can now accurately be called an
“E-Rev”.
lyle, any chance that someone on the gm staff or someone you know might want to start a page on wikipedia called;
The E-Rev?
this would get the term out there into the general population, and might even bring a higher interest to the great chevy volt!
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:08 pm
And Tony Posawatz and Denise Gray better inform Bob Lutz that they are trying to un-brand the Volt as a “hybrid” in interviews…
http://www.reuters.com/article/Autos07/idUSN2062690720071121
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 pm
jeff, your relationship with the clinton’s and michael moore makes it dubious as to why you are posting on the chevy volt site.
i would guess that you are not on here for true discussion, but that you are just here to try and throw water on the fire as they say. i.e. trying to extinguish the excitement that is The Chevy Volt.
good bye jeff, i don’t have time for your idiotic postings any longer.
iggied, lol…
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:27 pm
James (#45)… maybe you’d have some credibility if you didn’t get into the name calling, and like the griz man, focused on tangents, but yet unable to dispute GM’s own 2001 article calling a range extended EV a series hybrid themselves, and Lutz himself calling it a hybrid. Now you are saying (though I haven’t seen GM themselves deny it themselves yet) that GM is saying they were wrong to call it that? How can we beileve them now? And how come you and the griz haven’t been correcting GM up to this point in time when supposedly have suddenly realized their mistake in language?
If you are such a good googler yourself, please provide pointers to other articles, hopefully like mine from GM and Ford themsevles, that claim that a range extended EV is not a series hybrid (or a hybrid at all for that matter).. instead you seemed to be focused on another posters messed up primate analogy, and your incorrect interpreation of the dictionary definition of hybrid, and why it doesn’t apply to a range extended EV, but does apply to GM’s other type of hybrids that are parallel in nature?
And regarding the republican doctrine I mentioned, which you so proudly think you got me on… I think you need to re-read my earlier post. I did NOT say the republicans are credited with inventing the doctrine, just like they likely didn’t create what is now refered to as the republican bag of dirty tricks. They simply took something the democrats created and perfected it. That’s how we got into Iraq. To come full circle, let’s hope the Volt and other gas sippers (vs. guzzlers) lead the way so giving us freedom from foreign energy (especially oil).
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:47 pm
jeff , i’m sorry, did you say something?
i guess i missed it and couldn’t hear you since i Iggied you, lol…
in case you don’t understand iggying, although it has been explained here many times. it means;
Ignore and scroll by (without reading the idiotic posts of the person that you are iggying), lol….
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:50 pm
#47 (James)… ah, now we see your true colours, let’s not dispute the facts that I provided, but sling mud.
First of all I’m not a democrat, I’m also not a republican as you probably correct guess. I’m not a fan of the 2-party system as they tend to be polarized opposites in order to get elected, and I, like I imagine most Americans seem to be, more moderate. If only every canidate could run as an Independent.
Second, once again if you are so good at googling, you should easily be able to find all my posts to other threads/forums on this site. If it helps, here’s the link… http://tinyurl.com/2aa726 .. you’ll find lots of posts where I’m very supportive of the Volt, and defending GM, but I’m also not a groupie of any auto maker and Lyle welcomes discussions/debate that may differ from his own or GM’s view, not just a bunch of yes men and women who treat GM as a God.
I took a fair amount of time and found credible evidence to back up my opinion, including articles and slide shows from both GM and Ford from 5+ years ago (when both were still working on EV’s) that refer to range extended (via an ICE) EV’s as series hybrids (and make the distinction from parallel hybrids). You on the other hand have provided nothing except to pick apart someone’s bad primate anology, and repeat your personal interpretation of the dictionary definition of hybrid of which outside of this thread of I have not seen anyone else (including GM) agree with.
I’m sorry instead of refuting GM and Ford’s own word, as well as everyone else outside this thread, you have decided to act like a child. I can only take that to mean you have nothing in the way of facts?
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Jeff M Says:
November 23rd, 2007 at 10:49 pm Quote
Grizzly (is that your real name?)
======
To you, yes.
After reading a few of your posts, your misinterpretation of definitions and facts, and trying to follow the nonexistent logic, I don’t think there should be any misunderstanding as to why I resorted to using primates as an example.
November 24th, 2007 at 12:00 am
grizz 51, jolly good, pip pip…
obviously jeff doesn’t understand a lot of things, including the meaning of iggying.
jeff, i will explain one more time for you;
Iggying is the art of passing by the posts of any persons name that you believe to be of a dubious nature.
you are Iggied jeff, this does not mean that i may or may not choose to read something you post later, especially in the case of when another poster quotes one of your posts. but it does mean that i will Iggy your posts most of the time, as i find them to be argumentative and of no use and/or no value.
oh, i did happen to see the word colours, which does show your true colours, lol…i’ll never really know if you got that one, since i won’t be reading your posts any longer…but cheerio and pip pip and all that sort of rot eh?
November 24th, 2007 at 1:54 am
Jeff M #44:
http://www.erevinc.com will never have a trademark issue - why do you think GM put a hyphen in it?
But http://www.e-rev.com, may not be too happy about it…..
Everyone else:
Guys and Gals, this is all about marketing. The idea is to differentiate your company from everyone else. And marketing types could care less if they are exactly accurate. Look at what was said in Lyle’s original post; “They like the marketing opportunities of “REV” (i.e. E-REVolution)”. Plus the “E” fits in with all of todays cool sounding stuff - e-surance, e-banking, e-loan, etc, etc, etc.
Personally, I think the hyphen is in the wrong place. It is being called and Extended Range - Electric Vehicle, ie: ER-EV. But who wants to go around saying they own an ERR EHV?????
Over the next three years, if GM markets this correctly, the E-REV name will be well known and there will be a basic understanding by the masses of what it means.
So what it boils down to is, would you rather tell your buddy at the bowling alley you just bought a cool Chevy Volt, which is a E-REV, or that you have a Chevy Volt, which is a vehicle that uses an electric motor for propulsion with a range of up to 40 miles, utilizing lithium ion battery technology for the main power source, usually re-charged by plugging it into the national electrical power grid, and an internal combustion engine to provide extra range of up to 600 miles via a self contained electrical generating system, sometimes, but not always, referred to as a series hybrid?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
E-REV it is for me…………
Now, back to what is important - what will it look like on the interior and exterior, what options will be available, and what colors will my wife be able to choose from?????????
November 24th, 2007 at 1:54 am
Once again, call it an E-REV, call it Tapioca, I’ll play along …
But if this isn’t a series hybrid then what is? What did that term ever mean? Did it never exist?
A series hybrid has always been a vehicle in which ONLY the electric motor powers the drive train and another fuel source can be used to power the battery. The other fuel source (generally an ICE) is IN SERIES with the battery and the electric motor, rather than in parallel. Hence the name. Alternatively the two power systems can operate IN PARALLEL and both power the drive train directly. A parallel system can be “full” as in the Prius, or “mild” as in the Civic in which the electric motor just assists the ICE. Either could be designed with plug-in capacity and any size battery pack.
It’s a bit Orwellian to now claim that the Volt is not a series hybrid no matter how extensive its off the plug battery range may be. “The phrase never existed. It is now double plus ungood.”
Once again, I understand why they want to call it an E-REV, and I support the decision. It’s a completely appropriate name for it. They want the image to emphasize that it will be functioning as an EV for 95-99% of the average person’s use. They want to emphasize how different this thing is conceptually from the Toyota approach. They want people to focus on how much this will allow us to wean off of foreign oil. Fine. I can get behind that. Few people really care what you call it at this point other than the marketeers. But arrogant name-calling and posturing in defense of this marketing decision is silly.
Btw, telling someone that you are ignoring them, while responding to anything you think you might have a response to, and calling them names …. sheesh. That’s not debate, that behaving cowardly. Let’s try to behave like adults here.
Feel free to “iggy” me too.
November 24th, 2007 at 2:39 am
I think that this whole thing is a little silly, and I’m not referring to people discussing the term. In reality, while GM has the authority to describe their range-extending electric drive architecture “E-flex” they don’t actually have the authority to name this particular design. No matter what they do, they can only add another term. Personally, I will will still use RxEV because I don’t like the dash in E-REV. People call also use REEV (using the saming long-hand that I do “range-extending (or ‘extended’) electric vehicle.” People can also use RxEDV, or REEDV, or EVRx/EVRE, whatever. But as I said earlier, it is nice to have one official term for this architecture. Series or serial hybrid has also been around for a while. And the powertrain architecture is not new either, no matter what anyone may think or say. I’m not sure, but I think that PHEV technology actually is the newest technology, though I could be wrong, but RxEV tech goes all the way back to the dawn of the car. And at this point, GM can only add to the discussion, name their own products, and give additional terms. But we can call it whatever we want. And beyond that, I’m waiting to see what the DOE names the tech. So far they been using PHEV for both hybrids and Volt-like EDVs. And I’m sure they’ll have more authority than GM in the name game. But one more time, I am glad now that there is at least one official shorthand for RxEV tech that designates it as different from PHEV. And for those of you who say that RxEV tech is still hybrid, I think you’re ridiculous. You are also people who say that E85 in a car makes that a hybrid too.
November 24th, 2007 at 2:48 am
53 jim I, well put, and without insults, excellent, and funny as well.
54 don, incredible, you make good points until you get to the end. you first state that name calling and posturing is silly…???
and then you next go on to call people names (actually saying that people are silly is also name calling, but i’m certain that you already realized that, lol).
i only ignore and posture when i find others to be offensive in their posts, which jeff has done from near the beginning of this thread, and which you have now done.
this is not a debate room, it is a room about the chevy volt, and to call someone cowardly, as you have just done again, is name calling. what exactly is it that makes you feel that you are acting like an adult?
oh, back to the debate thing that you mentioned. this is not a debate room, it is a room for ideas, ideas that i may or may not agree with, but feel open to just the same.
however, when someone gets insulting, i have the right to call them on it, and if they continue, then i will iggy them.
the reason that i tell them that i am iggying them is simple enough, they generally stop posting there insulting posts, if no one is listening to them.
i will consider your posts in the future, but, if you continue with the insults, then i will Iggy you.
and being the nice guy that i am, i now give you the super power to Iggy myself, or anyone else that you would like to…
btw don, can there be anyone or anything sillier than a grown man quoting humpty dumpty? i did not remark on that earlier, even though i found it to be quite childish, as you had not insulted anyone on this thread up to that point…
humpty dumpty? sheeeeesshhhh
ah, there is another problem with the harassers, they can easily change their name and pretend to be someone else to make it appear that they have backing.
maybe it’s time that we need to sign up and sign in with an email, name and password?
November 24th, 2007 at 2:58 am
I don’t know where to put this but this was an interesting quote (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/11/the-chevrolet-v.html):
“Company officials said that if one company lands the Volt battery order for 60,000 to 100,000 vehicles—at 16 kilowatt-hours and 300 cells per pack&mash;that company will immediately become the world’s largest lithium battery manufacturer.”
Back to A123 and their break with their sub. Can an intellectual property company with fairly limited manufacturing prowess go from a couple of their own factories making a few of their current DeWalt batteries, to “the world’s largest lithium battery manufacturer” in less than three years? $30 million in financing to do it? Matsushita is spending @$41 million (4.5 billion yen) just to increase their capacity by 50% (http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=16108)
Sorry for the hijack.
November 24th, 2007 at 7:43 am
[...] GM Calls the Volt an E-REV: We have had spirited discussion along the way about exactly what the Volt is. Common misrepresentations have included calling it a hybrid or series hybrid, or more commonly a plug-in hybrid. Bob Lutz has specifically said the Volt is not a hybrid (see post). [...]
November 24th, 2007 at 9:47 am
E-REV? I think I liked RxEV or EVRx more.
“iggy”? What? “Ignore” have too many letters or something? Geez…
November 24th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Several posters have insisted that the Volt’s design is not a hybrid despite vast evidence to the contrary. A google search for the words -volt series hybrid- returns 983,000 hits. One of them points here, to this site:
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/09/04/toyota-believes-its-parallel-hybrid-approach-is-better-than-volts-series-design/
In which Dave G explains:
“Then I found out that other people thought of this long ago, and called this design “serial hybrid”. So I Googled “plug-in serial hybrid”, and that’s when I found out about the Volt, which led me to this site in the first place.”
The links I have posted and many others show that people thought that the Volt’s design was a hybrid. They understood the advantage of this design; they got it. Now they are being told that their understanding was wrong.
For what purpose? Marketing? Patents?
Whatever the reason, if GM intends to be honest, they they need to acknowledge that the Volt is a series hybrid design and that they simply calling their own unique variation E-REV.
November 24th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
I had a feeling this post could lead to some heated arguments. We have ben throwing around terminology options for some time. I suspect there has been arguing about what to call the Volt at GM as well. It took them a while, I am told to settle on E-REV, and I think there were opponents to it as well. Even Lutz has called it a plug-in hybrid in quotes after the video interview I posted.
Clearly GM wants the public to distinguish the Volt from the Prius which carries the badge of “hybrid” regardless of exact technical definitions.
Anyway, we are all entitled to our opinions but let’s try to keep it friendly
November 24th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
What this really boils down to is that E-Flex IS different and therefore people need to know what makes it SPECIAL and how to recognize it from the other choices available in the market. People NEED to understand their choices or they will choose neither out of fear and confusion. Electric cars will die again a we will all lose!
Not giving a clear distinction between the range-extended battery electric car which is E-Flex and an ICE driven car with a little electric motor and a battery primarily designed to recapture breaking energy for reuse during acceleration (plug or not) is going to severely DEGRADE and slow the path toward electrification of the automobile. You know, getting off foreign oil, stopping war, energy choice etc.
The real fact is that a confused mind automatically says NO!
It’s your choice. You can choose be helpful and promote a clear distinction, or you can be stubbornly destructive and muddy the waters to cause more confusion.
Which side are you going to be on?
I know… I can clearly hear you thinking… “BUT, BUT, BUT… Tim’s an idiot and I’m right…”
SELFISH!
November 24th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
I don’t know why this argument is so important. Maybe because I am not an engineer. I thought I knew what a series hybrid was and I thought it was a chevy volt.
Now I’m clueless, but will say this.
If the Volt is NOT a series hybrid, I will buy it.
If the Volt IS a series hybrid, I will buy it.
I will buy it because it is an E-REV. I know what E-REV means and I’m perfectly comfortable with my ignorance as to whether or not the Volt is a hybrid. I’m thinking the masses are going to feel the same way.
November 24th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
mike 59…iggy? what i don’t have the right to freedom of speech, lol, funny guy mike. lmao @ mike 59.
mike 49, so, tomorrow (today, saturday) you are going to call the volt the e-rev? now you are back to arguing about it? whatever mike.
mike, i’m fairly certain that you are a troll, but not positive, i’ll keep reading to figure it out.
you have a free right to speech, but so do i, and if it looks like someone is on here just to be a troll, paid or not, i’m gonna call ya on it.
it’s not a matter of whom i don’t agree with, lol, i don’t agree with a lot of people, but it’s a matter of who may be on here just for the purpose of arguing, and denegrating the volt…p.s. r u from canada?
November 24th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
SELFISH!
Hmmm. Will other companies be building “E-REVs”; or does GM hold a patent? Will they liscense the technology, or is it even patentable? Somehow I suspect that when the Volt is successful other companies will want to make “E-REVs” too. Somehow I suspect that people who want to reduce dependence of foreign oil, increase energy security…etc will want a choice of vehicles from different companies. I know GM won’t try to restrict companies from building them, because that would be SELFISH!
November 24th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
I made a suggestion to GM (on the Chevy website blog) to change the name/technology of the car from the Chevy “VOLT” to the Chevy “RE-EV” (as in Range Extended Electric Vehicle) and incorporate it into an “American RE-EVolution” ad campaign.
Of course, it’s easy to pronounce it “REEVE” instead of “REV” so, “E-REV” is probably a better choice in the long run.
November 24th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
GM probably will not want to restrict other companies from building E-REV’s but will definitely want to protect what they’ve invested in. But I think it’s important to note that the differences between the Volt and Prius are not negligible.
I will admit that if everyone understood the technical differences it wouldn’t make much difference which you call it, but that’s not the case and while it may be ok to throw a peanut in your mouth and call it a nut, it’s not the same as calling the Volt another “hybrid”.
After all, for how long have we been calling Pluto a planet?
November 24th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Other companies have already shown their E-REV concepts so I doubt whether that can or will be patented. Batteries, motors, control systems and other components can and will be patented. Intellectual property is just that… property.
One can not patent flight, but one can patent their wing design.
No hard feelings, Mike756. This is NOT personal. I’m sure that all want the exact same thing…CHOICE. Ambiguity is the direct enemy of choice and the only way to have real choice is to remove it and let consumers know clearly what their choices are.
The spirited discussion has been fun and enlightening.
Cheers!
November 24th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
mike 41, mike, you still on here arguing after your #41 statement…please mike, enough already. the volt is no longer considered a hybrid by most of us, so live with it. you can call it whatever you like, but that doesn’t make it so.
to be honest mike, i’m pretty tired of your troll like properties, please give it a rest…
November 25th, 2007 at 12:36 am
I like the way Rashiid #63 says it. It seems like most of the people posting here are heavily technically oriented (guilty of this myself).
But when I think of the average person (one who isn’t some kind of engineer), he or she just wants a short acronym to describe how the thing acts when you use it.
For the initial crop of PHEVs (Prius, Vue, etc.), I beleive sales will be terrible. This will make a lot of people think the whole PHEV idea is bad. So from this point of view, I don’t want the Volt to have anything to do with these first PHEVs.
Yes, I found this site using “serial hybrid”, and I’m sure others will in the future, but I’m prefectly willing to change what I call it if it helps the mass appeal of the Volt.
November 25th, 2007 at 1:18 am
# Dave G Says:
November 25th, 2007 at 12:36 am Quote
I like the way Rashiid #63 says it. It seems like most of the people posting here are heavily technically oriented (guilty of this myself).
*****
Correct, and as I said earlier, semantics don’t change the vehicle, especially among the technically savvy. However, the possibility that the average person might believe that below the skin it’s technically just another Hybrid ala Prius is cause for concern, because it isn’t. Two fundamentally different vehicles.
I’m hoping to hear the “fat lady” sing on the issue of the Volt as a hybrid.
November 25th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
I think you’re wrong in post 70 about the first crop of PHEVs as being poor sellers. To have a Prius with average mpg of 100 or better, or to have a VUE plug-in with average mpg of 70 or more is incredible, I think that it will sell very well. Especially with gas prices being sustained in the $3-$4 region. While E-flex will likely get the average driver well, well over 100 mpg, maybe even over 1000 mpg average, the first PHEVs will still be impressive, a real change, and strong seller.
November 25th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
The way I drive, I’ll be getting over 1000 mpg.
November 25th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
#72 and #73. I must have missed something.
The VUE Plug-in will get 70 MPG? Where did 1000 mpg come from?
Grizzly #71, “However, the possibility that the average person might believe that below the skin it’s technically just another Hybrid ala Prius is cause for concern, because it isn’t. Two fundamentally different vehicles.”
I don’t see this as a concern at all. I would think that most people, when they think of a hybrid, think of 1) better MPG and 2) cleaner for the environment. The Volt does both.
The only significant difference for the ignorant (myself included) is that the car will need to b