Your Questions Answered by Top Chevy Volt Executives, Part I
I met with Tony Posawatz, GM’s E-Flex vehicle line director and Denise Gray, advanced battery director armed with >250 of your questions from our GM-Volt.com community. In more than 2 hours of discussion we covered a lot of ground, dozens were answered. Here is the first installment.
Q: How will people in apartments deal with cars that have to be plugged in?
A: (TP) “Our main focus is on the vehicle and getting it correct and running”. “We are beginning to do some work and discussions about electrical infrastructure” “We’re anticipating that’s going to be a help-required area, it’s not our business to do that” “Our studies show that 80% of people have relatively easy access (to the grid)”
Q: Will GM also allow faster charging from a 220 v outlet, besides regular 110 v charging?
A: (TP) “That’s our direction right now because we want to offer a choice to the customer” “We hope and expect that other industries (businesses) will come into play and help fill that gap” “For example I expect well see some pretty cool accessories (aftermarket)”
Q: If the car is moving at a velocity of 65 mph and the HVAC is activated, how will that affect the anticipated 40 miles electric range?
A: (TP) “I can’t comment specifically as to the impact of running your HVAC system as it related to numbers. It has an affect..it’s a function of (the environment). there is some degradation if your AC compressor unit is going on”..”We will have a new HVAC system that is intended to be very efficient”..”We will allow the customers choice if they want to run in eco-mode which will restrict a little bit of the HVAC performance.”..”We’ve done some studies and it (HVAC use) could mean a few miles of EV range (less)”..”We are looking at creative ways to minimize waste and allow passenger comfort and maximize EV range” “We are looking at the degree to which we shut other systems off,whether it be lights, etc.”..”A lot of this stuff is in software”
Q: Is the 40 miles range you have modelled with no HVAC?”
A: (TP) “Yeah, it’s with no or minimum HVAC”.
Q: How do you expect the car to perform in very cold environments, and will that change the range?
A: (DG) “With our lithium-ion chemistry”…”we have to do testing at the high and low temperature extremes”..”it is a ‘to be determined’”..”there’s a number of variables in the equation”.”there are still some big-time unknowns”
(TP) “We have to design the car for the extremes, but in many cases (the cooling system) will never be turned on”..”some of the energy of charging will go to heat the battery” “if someone leaves the car outside and it’s whatever below zero, they’ll have difficulties”
Q: When will the production Volt’s design be released?
A: (TP) “We’ll answer that later. I do not have a final date.”
Q: What are the barriers to getting this car out in 2009?
A: “We’ve been asked by many well meaning factions (such as government), ‘how can we help’”. “we are looking at an 8 to 10 year warranty battery, and it hasn’t ever been constructed. We certainly don’t ask for 8 to 10 years to test the battery.” “We believe we have staked out the leadership position”. “We will pace the development.”…”General Motor’s can not afford to have any significant issues (with this car)”
Q: So there is a risk to you if the car comes out to soon and the batteries start failing?
A (TP): “Absolutely”..”There is a certain time required to get this car going.””We are leveraging certain existing architecture, but many things will be new.”..“There will be certain family resemblances to the show car, but, in order to achieve the 40 miles of EV range, the car has been blowing through a wind tunnel, and it will have differences.” “efficiency is the most important thing, and aero is huge. (also) the more you slip through the air, the more regenerative braking you get.”
“If there was (already) a battery that already existed, then it might be a different story”
Popularity: 1%
Related posts:
- Your Questions Answered by Top Chevy Volt Executives, Part 3
- Your Questions Answered by Top Chevy Volt Executives, Part 5
- Your Questions Answered by Top Chevy Volt Executives, Part 2
- Your Questions Answered by Top Chevy Volt Executives, Part 4
- Your Questions Answered by Top Chevy Volt Executives, Part 6
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November 17th, 2007 at 8:15 am
I would like to thank the folks from GM for taking the time to answer our questions. I am amazed at how open they have been about the Volt development. It really helps us understand and empathize with the challenges they face in producing a car I really want to buy now!
November 17th, 2007 at 8:40 am
If you want to see how to deal with cold temperatures, go to Alberta, Canada. All parking spots in apartment building have plug-ins connected to apartment power meters and all cars have block heaters to keep the engines warm overnight so you can start it in the morning. Similar devices and infrastructure could be used for Volt.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:44 am
I hope this thing is not DOA in Canada and many of the northern states. The average January low in Toronto is -10 C/14 F. If I keep it in my garage (slightly warmer perhaps), AND keep it plugged in all night, will this prevent some of the problems of reduced range?
Also, is it at the freezing point when batteries start to get killed or is their a downward performance progression from room temp down?
November 17th, 2007 at 8:47 am
Looks like Rob answered my question as I was asking it. That’s quick.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:49 am
At freeway speed, the increased drag will require more power from the battery and reduce the 40 mile AER. Ditto for use of AC. And if the compressor is continuously engaged, like on a hot day, the distance penalty will increase.
I could not read between the lines to discern whether the delay to 2010-11 is due to the need to prove to a limited degree the life expectancy of the battery, which was implied, but rather the inability to produce enough batteries due to startup production delays. I expect the latter reason hits closer to reality. It is going to be mid to late 2008 before the prototype testing is exhausted and a production decision is reached.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:52 am
Lithium Ion batteries actually benefit from being stored at or near 32 degrees F. The problems begin when you get significantly below that, which is relatively infrequent in most areas. Part of the problem with lithium ion batteries is that their capacity naturally degrades whether you use them or not, but the capacity is reduced much less if you approach freezing temperatures. Cold temperatures are a good thing, in the main.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Forgot the link, and it is just wikipedia, but it is fairly useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion
November 17th, 2007 at 9:00 am
Sometimes it appears these questions show a deep distrust of GM or shotgun approach to all concerns major and minor. That works a hardship on everyone. The beauty of this car is the e-flex concept. How often do we see such elegant novel concepts coming out of such a staid industry? The real concerns here are simple and should be treated that way. The battery, platform, flexibility and style of the vehicle are the prime concerns. I am quite sure the project managers and engineers are obsessed with these details.
It is readily apparent that GMs thinking about the car is serious. If it is a ruse, it is an elaborate one, that will cost them dearly with the public and the bottom line. As for the shotgun questioners, one should keep in mind that this is a whole new approach. It won’t be perfect or answer everyone’s needs or desires the first time out. So if you live in North Pole, Alaska or don’t have access to electricity for such a car, you shouldn’t follow this website.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:17 am
I was delighted to see “yes” to the question about 220V. Shorter charging times will resolve a lot of issues, and arranging for 220V is a one-time task.
On the timeline, to me 2010-11 seems very fast for a car that is such a big change from present products, so I’m happy it is not being rushed out faster. The car will get a lot better in that last year.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:17 am
Tim, I’m not saying that the Volt needs to be perfect. Even if it is only suitable for the warmer states, that’s still a huge market for this car. However, I am curious if I can even realistically look at this car as an option in 2010, since I live in Canada (near Detroit).
November 17th, 2007 at 9:21 am
If the 220 volt charge becomes a reality, I wonder how long it would take for fast food restaurants along the highway, or shopping centres to offer charging.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Way to go Lyle, and thanks to GM for including you.
Guys, Detroit is darn cold in the winters…this car will function in cold. I can see how progress can’t be made on a daily basis but how every month or so a breakthrough may emerge. Those are what I’m looking for.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Construct the roof or trunk out of photovoltaic cells and allow the battery to trickle charge when the car is parked in the sun.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:09 am
(TP) “if someone leaves the car outside and it’s whatever below zero, they’ll have difficulties”
The same answer applies to todays cars. If it gets cold enough the car won’t start. Here is where the power of software comes to the answer.
The car can be ready by:
1.Plug it in: Leave the Volt plugged in and software control of heaters will maintain battery temperature.
2.Start ICE immediately: Software will decide based on temperature of ambient air and batteries how the power systems will behave. If the temperature is appropriate, the battery will be the source of power. If the temperature is too low then the ICE will start immediately furnishing power to the drive system. It could also engage heaters to warm the battery quickly and then disengage the ICE since driving currents will keep the battery warm.
3.Power battery heater from pack: Software could decide and control the use of some energy stored in the battery pack to warm itself. It shortens range, but either the ICE starts immediately and shortly shuts down when the pack reaches proper temperature, which will cause cold running ICE emissions issues or pull some energy from the pack preventing or delaying the ICE startup until the pack needs to have a minimum charge maintained. Then it would be more likely the ICE will remain on longer , reaching operating temperature minimizing emissions issues.
4.Other ideas created by GM’s engineers.
If the car is located in Alaska it will work, just not all electric all the time. I see no problem with that. Batteries will improve or will be replaced with ultra-capacitors.
These and other options would come into play based on what the human is demanding from the car. Software properly designed will make the Volt a fantastic car to drive.
P.S. GM should give drivers a choice via menu or driver profile parameters. If driving the vehicle in cold temperatures does not “harm” the battery but the battery provides slow acceleration response, that’s fine. Let me choose to accept that behavior, keep the ICE off. The battery will warm via usage.
If the temperature is -20F and there’s safety issues for the mechanics of the system software can override my choice. Again software control can make decisions to protect and allow energy control flexibility to the driver.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:35 am
“we are looking at an 8 to 10 year warranty battery, and it hasn’t ever been constructed. ”
“If there was (already) a battery that already existed, then it might be a different story”
“Yeah, it’s with no or minimum HVAC”.
Excellent stuff. Nice to see some real information without Lutz’s Shangri-La PR filter applied. I feel more confident about the project when I hear real people actually acknowledging real problems.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:37 am
whats strange about all this 240-volt charging is 15 and 20 amp duplex receptacles can only produce about 2400 watts or 2.4Kw max and that would be reduced if the load is 3 hours or more to 80% of that value, 1920 watts or 1.9Kw. Now if we consider 240 volt receptacle it would make no sense to have it at the same Kw rating. So now you have to increase the Kw rating to make it worth while. A typical 240 volt receptacle would be the same as for a clothes dryer which is usually 30Amp at 240 volts or 7200 watts peak or 7.2Kw but not for 3 hours. 3 hours would be 80% of that. This all means that whereever the car is to be charged if people had differant receptacle ratings than the car would have to have both charging receptacle configurations, may drive up the cost. 120 volt charging is fine. 120 volt receptacles are everywhere and readily available to most. Just look around in the parking area you park at and most of the time you can find one. Also, with 120 volt the cost is a little bit lower for the building allowing you to charge. If all uf us buy this car and then show up at work and plug-in to a 240 volt 7.2Kw receptacle our employer is not going to happy with his new electric bill…change may happen in the way of we may have to pay to plug-in. Kepp it at 120-volt and we may just slip through the cracks, so to speak.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Thinking a bit more….
The Volt would start even when convential gas cars wouldn’t. How?
The car has been sitting outside in a parking lot with no plugin availalble. The temperature is -35F. When the driver tries to “start” the Volt it determines that the car will have degraded performance with battery alone, so it tries to start the ICE. The ICE does not start, software detects the situation and calls for current from the battery pack to warm the ICE. Even though the battery pack can not supply sufficient drive currents it should be able to supply a modest heater or glow plugs for the ICE. The Volt lets the driver know it will be a few moments as it tries to warm the ICE and retry the ICE start sequence. Varooom the ICE starts, supplying electricity to the drive system and the pack heaters. The Volt drives warmly on into the snowy sunset.
In a conventional car it would be a no go situation. In the Volt that are many more options.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Those were some nice softballs you threw those executives. Whatever you do, don’t ask them the tough questions…
November 17th, 2007 at 11:22 am
There are no real issues with low temperature in a Li-Nano PHEV. The ICE with liquid cooling can easily be set up to divert warm coolant to the battery at low temps. This battery temperature “boost” will require very little fuel. Considering all the factors and especially on an annual basis, there are no real problems for most of Canada and especially the more populous areas. Likewise, by virtue of enhanced regnerative braking with Li-ION, cooling is no big deal either. The simple addition of insulating foam to the body panels enhances heating and cooling, reduces road noise and makes the vehicle stronger. Foam composite aircraft technology can be applied to cars.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:31 am
What would the tough questions be? I honestly don’t know. Are we missing something here?
November 17th, 2007 at 11:44 am
We need to get ALL manufactures on board for the better good, rather than concern about MY bottom line. We are in trouble here, because the US has to depend on foreign oil. It’ll take every manufacturer to solve the problem together. I’m saving my $ for the volt.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Food for thoughts: the ONLY problem facing ANY electric car is the electrical storage (read: battery). Period! All other issues are perfectly understood and under control.
We all know that there are many research programs around the world aiming at developing new, economically viable electrical storage technologies.
I am convinced that some will come out and exceed the current Li-ion performances hands down. I have done a quick research and found that there was at least one very promising, and quite practical solution under development.
This means that even if the current battery performance is not really satisfactory, projected advances in electrical storage technologies will allow the current owners of electric cars to (almost instantly) multiply their range by a factor of up to five with the same battery weight/size, by simply exchanging their batteries with the new ones. This improvement will bring the EV on a par with (and possibly exceed) the ICE range performances. I am hopeful that all those who are on the forefront of the “EV wave” will be rewarded for the investment and sacrifices they made to acquire an EV!
November 17th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
We live in coastal Southern California and almost never use the AC in our cars. Remember that days when it was an option? I would take a Volt without AC if that’s what it took to make it happen.
While the power demand to overcome drag goes up at highway speeds, there is a very high power demand from accelerating the mass in city driving. Isn’t that why city mileage is lower than highway for conventional cars?
I realize that regenerative braking gets some of that back, but isn’t it about a push in the end? Existing hybrids get a useful push from the batteries at low speed, which seems to be why they do better on the city cycle, but this is a different breed of cat. If you are trying to run considerable distances on the batteries alone, I bet it goes back to more miles on the highway, or at least a push.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
How long will the battery last and how much to replace it?
November 17th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Hi Lyle:
Thank you for keeping a running communication going with General Motors regarding the development of the production Volt.
I hope GM doesn’t take too long (like 5 to 10 years) to get the Volt to the showrooms. If they do, others, such as Ford and Toyota, will pass them by with their soon to appear Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs).
PHEVs are definitely the solution to getting our country off of its addiction to foreign oil, is the way to reduce fuel costs significantly for consumers, and will be a major factor in reducing polluting emissions.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
guess that means that anybody within the northern states and above into Canada need to park their Volt in the garage. Where it is supposed to go…
November 17th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
I’m surprised no one has asked how much this vehicle will be priced on the market or did I miss something? How much will the Volt be?
November 17th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
They only answered 8 questions.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
[quote comment="15126"]What would the tough questions be? I honestly don’t know. Are we missing something here?[/quote]
For one thing, why does nobody acknowledge the EV1, which had a triple digit battery range before all of the units were recalled and crushed by GM (despite the fact that there were people with cash waiting in line to buy one?) How about Toyota’s RAV4-EV, which is still running today with triple-digit battery ranges?
A “hard question” might be “what happened to the NiMH battery technology that GM turned over to Chevron, who subsequently quashed any EV use for until 2010?”
GM HAD the technology. Now GM is beating its chest trumpeting a 40 mile range when it had at LEAST double that range TEN YEARS AGO.
Now there’s a hard question. Or two. Or three.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Here in Texas you will need an A/C at least 9 of the 12 months of the year. Seems that GM must field test the final platform in many regions or sealed climatic chambers.
Here in South Texas any metal surface reaches temps that sometimes rivals a hot plate. Is there any solar technology to help with the recharging? I’ve read about stations that were in place in California towards the end of the GM EV-1 life cycle.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Thanks for the questions, Lyle. Good work, keep ‘em comin’.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
A question for a future opportunity….
I only use my vehicle once a week, will the Volt lose it’s electrical charge setting until I get ready to use the vehicle? I do take a couple of long trips via the car every year.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Another question to ask when you get the chance Lyle (and I’d still love to hear how they feel A123’s break with their Chinese sub will effect their timeline) is based off of this article: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iGyBCo5-4inECUcSvCvzNv6eYHpgD8SULF9G0
“In both oil consumption and vehicle sales, China ranks second globally after the United States and is fast catching up. Vehicle sales jumped 25 percent last year to 7.2 million units, including trucks and buses.
Spurred by the country’s growing dependence on oil imports, the government targeted cleaner cars as a priority in February 2006 as part of a broad range of efforts to reduce carbon emissions and improve energy efficiency.
GM has said it plans to start selling a gas-electric hybrid here next year.”
What vehicle do they plan to introduce there and is a Volt release in China likely at the same time as an American debut? Or are they going to let companies domestic to China beat them to the punch?
November 17th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Hmmm. I need to learn coding. I had placed a “snip” inside greater than and less than signs to show I cut out a bit before the “GM has said …” and it went away. Please see the original article for correct context.
November 17th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
#26, Mark. Garages are warmer than outdoors, but only slightly. Their temperatures do fall below and sometimes well below the freezing point all across Canada, and the Northern states. Unless of course you want to heat your garage in which case you should also buy a Hummer to commute.
It seems apparent that GM is working on the problems of temperature, and it will probably be suitable for Canuckistan.
November 17th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Does anyone know the price range of this car? I haven’t seen it anywhere.
November 17th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
I’ve never lived in the cold, so excuse me if this seems uneducated, but don’t batteries hate hot?
It is easy to produce heat from a car.
I’m more concerned about driving a few hundred miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. HOT. Like Africa HOT. Like melt the paint off the car HOT.
November 17th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I guessing here, but bringing up anything about EV1 would seem like the interviewer was provoking “Tony Posawatz, GM’s E-Flex vehicle line director and Denise Gray, advanced battery director.” That issue, and the issue about the NiMH batery technology GM turned over to Chevron are within the span of control for either one of those two. In reality, those are questions that leaves us wondering but this may not be the apropriate forum to target those issues.
I do agree with everyone that this car should be able to do the 40 miles easy with the technology we already have. I think GM sees the 40 mileage target as a BIG, BIG, BIG eye catcher for the consumer. Because they already see the number 40 as a number most commuters are labeled as driving to a from work each day. Its silly if that is the case.
A great question that should be asked is why not lease out batteries today (that already exhist) Granted it might be a slighter reduction in mileage. Then, LATER…when battery technology increases option out those for the consumer to purchase with the 10 year warranty. Tony Posawatz, GM’s E-Flex vehicle line director stated; “We hope and expect that other industries (businesses) will come into play and help fill that gap” “For example I expect well see some pretty cool accessories (aftermarket)”
In saying that there will be accessories after production is made is a viable market for GM. Pasowatz’s already making the statement here. So, just sell us the car sooner than later. Thats all Im saying. Then, it just leaves us the problem of waiting for the windtunnel to tweek the areodynamics of the vehicle. Most buyers on this discussion board are going to OWN this car anyhow. Just borrow the concept that the cell phone market has already shown us. The Keyosks we see at Shopping Malls sell aftermarket upgrades for phones, new covers, chargers and batteries. How hard would it be to switch out a battery in this vehicle? Its a battery…not the motor that would have to be replaced. 250 lbs?? A few wires??? IM JUST SAYIN!
November 17th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Lyle, Good questions. Great job as usual.
GM said…”“We will pace the development.”…”General Motor’s can not afford to have any significant issues (with this car)”
I can’t agree more. No issues with the entire car. GM can’t afford it on more than one level. Do it right, and make is as close to perfect as possible.
JD #36.. The price as quoted by Bob Lutz is..”nicely under 30K”
Dan #35. I live in New England and have a heated garage. The heat goes on when the temperature goes under 42F. I don’t see a significant difference in heating cost and it saves money by not letting the pipes freeze and explode. That gets pretty expensive.
Now to this point, I park under the building at work. It is exposed to the outside because the parking is at ground level. I will have the Volt plugged in right there, but temperatures can be in the single digits. If the car is plugged in during these temperature lows, won’t the battery still be warm because of the charging, thereby not causing any problems?
November 17th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Just as i thoug that range is no AC. The AC reduces the milage of my hybridhere in Arizona by 30% That equates to a high 20 range for theVolt in the summer. Do you expect us to run with NO AC when it 115F for over 100 days.
It’s why I keep pushing for a 50 mile range using the head in the sand rating that Detroit uses.
November 17th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
#29
The problem with your hard questions is that they have already been answered for educated intelligent people.
The EV1 was a very, very poor candidate for production. The only reason some of the EV1 owners liked them is because they didn’t pay for them - GM did! Had GM tried to take them into production no one would have been able to afford them. Toyota does not produce the RAV4 either, for similar reasons.
From an engineering perspective Li ion beats out Ni Cad hands down. It makes no sense to try and use inferior technology when better is available.
You may believe the out right lies and half truths presented in “Who killed the electric car” but you would be a lot better off just getting some education.
In the end your questions are not hard, just stupid.
November 17th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
#41. The funny thing is that the guy who made “Who Killed the Electric Car” is now on GM’s side. He is quoted in a Time article saying that the Volt is very significant and gives cudos to GM. That movie is where the paranoid nuts get their conspiracies from. Now he’s making “Who Saved the Electric Car”, which is sure to feature the Volt. The best way to deal with these people who “ask the hard questions” is ignore them. This site is amazing in the intelligence of many of its members (many who seem to be engineers), so hopefully this is maintained despite its growing popularity.
Rashiid: Sorry I wasn’t aware that people had heating in their garages. Most everyone I know don’t. I guess if you have vents and pipes run to your garage you need to heat it to prevent freezing the pipes. I don’t however. I’m curious what percentage of people do heat their garages?
November 17th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
We should all be sure to remember that even if the battery in our Volts dies completely after 15 years, we will still be left with a super-efficient vehicle, much like the modern-day Prius.
Also, in 15 years, they will probably be able to take out your old battery and replace it with one that’s 1/3 of the size, weight, and cost of the original.
I am ready for my Volt now.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Rashiid #39 - good point. Also, space heaters don’t cost very much and can keep a garage-sized room over 32 degrees F fairly easily.
One more quick point: this is Volt 1.0 that we’re talking about people. There is no doubt in my mind that subsequent generations of the Volt will have solved the few issue that may be present with Volt 1.0
The PHEV revolution is happening now.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Everyone is talking about heating the batteries up north during the winter. Don’t forget the passengers. You must kept them warm also. To heat the passenger compartment would no doubt have a bad effect on the gas mileage. But heating the passengers during the winter months up north is just as important as cooling them in a hot climate. Believe me, you don’t want to ride in a car with no heat in temps below 32 degrees. I did that as a kid some 60 years ago and it was not fun.
I understand that heat will come from the ICE when running but we’re talking about running 40 miles on batteries and the temp out side is -10. The heat must come from somewhere.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Dan D #42 and Drake #44.
I got lucky on the heat really. The former owner of my home was a mechanic and worked in the garage. The heat is Hot Water based and comes from a single Modine. I don’t use it often, but the thermostat goes down to 42 and then the heat kicks on.
To answer you question Dan D, in my life I have only known a few people with a heated garage. I think my house is more the exception than the rule. At least for Southern New England.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
James Given, #45. Well said. I too rode in a pickup truck without heat as a kid. It gets cold. Heat is as necessary as A/C. I have to imagine the heat in the Volt will be electric heat. Perhaps in the seat? The Volt obviously can’t be created for just warm climates, so GM will do the right thing. They have extremely bright engineers working on this.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
With respect to this issue of the battery’s range being compromised by heating/cooling: keep in mind that for a lot of people, this won’t really be an issue. About 80% of daily commutes are 40 miles or less - many of them will be a fair bit less than that, and if people can find a way to plug their cars in at work, then it’s even less of a problem.
And people, this is the first car of its kind. It doesn’t need to be perfect to make economic sense for people and environmental sense for society.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
#45. I have a 15 minute commute to work and the heat doesn’t kick in until after about 7 minutes. I can handle freezing temps for a little while since I dress warm enough.
It would be awesome if you could crank the heat in the car a few minutes before you leave WHILE it is plugged in. A lot of people run their cars for 10 minutes in the morning so it’s nice and warm and the windows are defrosted when they get in. It’d be even better if the software allowed you to preset it to heat the car automatically in the morning before you head to work. Kind of like a coffeemaker which automatically starts brewing before you wake up.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Jay #48, “And people, this is the first car of its kind. It doesn’t need to be perfect to make economic sense for people and environmental sense for society.”
Right, it just needs to be perfect so people will buy it from GM. I’m concerned if the car is far from perfect, what it will do to the industry as well as to GM. GM doesn’t really have a good name, but this car can turn that completely around with a high reliability rating.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
As to GM’s good name … you may find the international press that Lutz is getting, in rags like The Economist, edifying: http://economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10131608
The cigar-chomping 75-year-old former Marine fighter pilot was hired by Rick Wagoner, GM’s boss, to do just one thing: transform the appeal of the cars it sells. Six years on, Mr Lutz thinks his work is finally bearing fruit.
So do more neutral observers. Many of the new models launched over the past 18 months have won plaudits for their design and overall quality. The latest, the sporty Cadillac CTS and the mainstream Chevrolet Malibu sedan, are being compared favourably to rival products from European and Japanese carmakers—something almost inconceivable only a little while ago. A range of big sport-utility vehicles (SUVs) with the two-mode hybrid system GM has developed with Mercedes and BMW has also been warmly received. Mr Lutz says this shows that technology can make even traditional SUVs “less obscene”. After years of decline, GM’s market share in North America is now edging up, to around 25%, even though the firm has slashed dealer incentives and reduced sales to car-rental firms.
….
One project that emerged without any analysis or data is the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in hybrid concept car that first appeared at the Detroit motor show earlier this year. Mr Lutz says he was thinking about how GM could outdo the hybrid Toyota Prius and that it came to him as an epiphany: “I know. We’ll do an all-electric car.” The Volt’s motive power, unlike the Prius’s, is entirely electric, and can come either from batteries charged from the mains, which will give it a range of more than 40 miles, or from a small on-board internal-combustion engine that works as a generator. Mr Lutz admits that even he was shocked by the interest stirred up by the Volt. “Some people said it was a fake, a PR exercise,” he says. “We said: ‘We’ll show ‘em’.”
Mr Lutz is sublimely confident that the Volt will come to market in about three years’ time. By early 2008 he expects to have development cars running, complete with the advanced lithium-ion batteries they will depend on. Mr Lutz reckons GM will at first build up to 100,000 Volts a year, priced at less than $35,000, but that production will be constrained by the need to create an all-new supply base. “Every component has to be redesigned for low-energy use,” he says. Mr Lutz adds that he is more excited by the Volt than any project he has ever worked on. He is “hell-bent” on re-establishing GM’s technical leadership, and these days that means being the greenest carmaker. Apart from the Volt, what would he like to be remembered for? “I’d like them to say I was the person who re-focused the company on uncompromising product excellence, as opposed to the attitude that asked how much do we have to do to be competitive,” he says.
(I hope I coded that right!)
November 17th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Lyle Dennis interviewed by Wired
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/11/meet-the-blogge.html
November 17th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Am certainly glad to hear about the 220 volt recharge capability - that’s a big deal, since it easily allows two recharges per day, specifically when used between errands during the day or to recharge after home from work in time to go out at night.
I don’t know how fast the recharger will allow the VOLT to accept juice, but at 220V/40 amps, we’re talking full recharge in less than 1 hour. Remember, 45 miles per day equals 16,450 miles per year.
The other point well taken is that there really is no surefire way to know just how long those battery packs will last without actually allowing them to last that long. So caution is the word, and it will help immeasurably to have 3 year’s worth of
testing usage to gain better understanding of the deterioration and aging pattern. Those battery packs are simply way too expensive to start failing en masse before warrrany coverage is over. I did remeber that LG guy mentioning that he wouldn’t be surprised if their batteries lasted 40 years, so there is plenty of room for uncertainty.
November 17th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
#45 James Givens,
While in electric mode, the batteries, electronics, and electric motor will all be generating heat (not as much as an ICE since the electric drive system is more efficient).
If properly designed, the cooling system can route that heat to the passenger cabin when needed.
And by the way, this is just one of the little things that prevents GM from releasing the Volt “now” as many of you are demanding. You need to realize that the Volt is not just a regular car with an advanced battery pack thrown in. There has never been a mass-produced car even remotely similar to the Volt, so it will take time to design, test, etc. Just be patient.
November 17th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
LyleL #52- Thanks for the link man- what a great interview.
While all of the talk of the Volt was great, the last paragraph really stood out to me, conerning the power of the Internet:
“I think the most important thing this shows is we are in a new world. We’re seeing the democratization of the media. It’s come to the point where anybody who’s got half a brain and has a passion about something can make a difference through the Internet. To me, this illustrates that. Like you said - I’ve now got the attention of the world’s largest automaker, and who the hell am I? I’m just a guy in his room writing on his computer. I’m nobody.”
How true indeed. In the same way that the Internet changed the world, the Volt is set to do no less.
What an exciting time to be alive.
November 17th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
#55
I agree; it’s pretty cool to watch this stuff unfold.
November 17th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
For an electric vehicle to be successful it must face the challenge of minimizing energy needed for “creature comfort”. Like the 60’s space program this could lead to lower energy costs beyond vehicles.
Outside of coastal California, most places are going to need cabin environmental control which is currently costly in terms of energy requirements.
I do not see a battery handling 100 percent humidity @ 99 degrees for long in a Houston traffic jam in August.
The charger engine could handle much of this but then we are depending on on- board fossil fuels.
I think most boomers would not want to give up the comfort.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
# 53 Kent, 40 amps is not a standard receptacle size; it would have to be a 50A receptacle for that 240-volt charger. One major thing to consider is a lot of residencies only have a 60, 70 or 100A service at 120/240 nominal, single phase. This would mean that for 240 volt charging the NEC may require everyone to change their electrical service. Also, for those who have apartments they can pretty much forget about 240 charging. P.S. there is no such voltage as 220 or 110, its 120, 120/240 nominal as per the NEC, trust me.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
It would be nice if GM set up a monetary enrollment for the Volt. I believe this would serve a few purposes. First, it would show GM, as well as the government and public, just how much interest there really is for this product. Second, it would give GM a gauge for how much production they are facing. Last, it breed interest among other consumers who are thinking about other sources of fuel for their transportation needs. I’d like to sign up now for this product.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Price about $40,000 out the door. Less than 30 mile range with the AC on. Dealers adding “scarce vehicle” profit improver’s on the price. Poor performance AC. A myriad of other bugs. Hard ride. Boy I can’t wait.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
The H in HVAC stands for heat. The Volt will have heat and air conditioning both. It has been discussed in the forums in detail.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
# 61 is correct: HVAC is Heating, Ventilating, Air Conditioning as per the Uniform Mechanical Code (UMC) as published with IAPMO.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
Yes but the HVAC should be designed to use less energy than current designs in order to not put such a drain on the battery. I have not seen any detailing on how they will do this.
My guess this will take a few generations assuming the first models sell well enough.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
They could design the HVAC around the ICE and not the EV drive train. In other words the HVAC would only work with the gen-set in the “on” mode.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
I’m sure the battery price is determining its size… why not leave that up to the buyer.. have room enough for the largest battery.. and leave the size up to the driver. What I want to know is if Hydrogen infrastructure has been thought of?
How close will the Volt be to the efficiency of the EV1?
November 17th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Realize that the mileage penalty from running the HVAC will be a function of time, not mileage driven. But a few miles penalty (which I assume means without sitting in traffic) is not that bad. I
still say run the HVAC while the car is still plugged in to get the interior temp right, and then unplug and drive off. That’s got to be a big help, since the tough part is getting the car into that comfortable temp to begin with.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
To 65 Perry, the hydrogen infrustructure in California is a JOKE, Gov Arnold S. opened the LAX hydrogen fueling station over a year ago and there are no hoses on the pumps and no one uses it, it just sits there. Millions of dollars down the drain. Stick with the plug-in for now and allow the hydrogen to develop. John D. wirenutjd.
November 17th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
I do agree with Kent # 66. Do the “start-up” while plugged in so you get it warmed up and then take off.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
I live in Western Pa.
I drive 20 to work one way. I have to go up one .. 1 mile grade of approx 20 degrees .. at 32 degrees F in the winter.. would the volt have a problem with this?
November 17th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
They can easily design a “heating” circuit that only accessible when plugged in for you cold climate fellows.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
I think all the concern about HVAC is unfounded. It shouldn’t take more than about 4HP to cool a car that size. I’d be surprised to see full-time HVAC usage drop the range by more than 10 miles in the absolute worst case of stop & go traffic jams. Creating adequate heat is more of a concern to me. I’m imagining using a heat pump system to create both the hot & the cold as needed. That seems to be the most efficient way to heat and cool my house so it should work well in miniature as well. Waiting for adequate second-hand heat from the drive system could take a LONG time! I’m sure there are fanatically motivated engineers at GM already working on this though so we’ll just have to wait and see what they come up with.
I will not buy another car until this technology is ready. If Toyota somehow sneaks up from behind and gets a PHEV on market before GM I’ll probably buy it instead because I’m driving a pretty beat up old ‘94 Geo today and I’d hate to have to start commuting in my 3/4 ton diesel pickup if the Geo dies! It also bothers me that I’m likely to have significant trouble getting a Volt once they do make it to market due to far greater demand than supply.
Everyone I’ve ever talked to about this car (that’s a lot of people) says that they would either seriously consider buying one or definately buy one if the body package fits their lifestyle. I imagine the Volt being just the beginning of an entire line of PHEV vehicles that will eventually include pickup trucks, minivans, cute utes, full-size SUVs, luxury sedans, and possibly even delivery vans for companies like UPS. The only vehicle market that seems untouchable to me is the over-the-road trucking market.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
My guess is that this car may not be a mass market vehicle especially at the $30k price point. People for the most part do not want this radical of a change.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
I disagree with 72..
I think people for the most part WANT a radical change.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
To Ron # 17, this is why we all our here speaking our mind. We can scare the world into producing these cars, because if they don’t GM will have the market on it. So, if the Volt’s are not in the dealership then go to Volvo. If Volvo is not your fancy then go to Toyota, and don not forget about Honda, they are just being quiet right now but they will have something coming out and it will probably be quite good too.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
ahhh, just when i thought the paid toyota trolls had left the building, here comes griperdan; “Price about $40,000 out the door. Less than 30 mile range with the AC on. Dealers adding “scarce vehicle” profit improver’s on the price. Poor performance AC. A myriad of other bugs. Hard ride. Boy I can’t wait.”
dan, didn’t you read don #51, the price is $35,000, not your qoute of 40k, and where did you get this “dealer scarce pricing” that you are talking about.
and please list the “myriad” of other bugs that you are talking about.
like i said a week ago, i like trolls, but only in fairytale land. if you want to be a troll griperdon, you should at least get the facts straight…
November 17th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Interesting discussions. I’m not surprised that Lyle asked about cold weather performance, since he lives in New York. Cold weather is not a “North Pole” issue, it’s an issue for everyone from Bangor to New York, and from Chicago to Billings. That said, I can’t believe that GM is planning on selling 100,000 Volts in So Cal alone. GM is in Detroit, I’m sure that they are on top of it.
That said, if we need to put a heater on the (engine block?) then I’d be happy to do it, while I’m at home. Doing it at work won’t be an option that is available to me. And if I have to use some kind of an accessory, I want it to be given to me by GM, or at least approved by GM. This is new technology, and I don’t want to be unsure if something is safe or effective.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
with no engine or transmission you would think it would be cheaper. The electronic controls would take care of most everything.
Would it operate well in 3-5 inch flash flood water like we have often on the gulf coast?
There are a lot more considerations then creature comforts and ride quality.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Whoops…made a mistake. Ron is # 71 not 17, engineers don’t make mistakes…do they? Any way what do you expect when you’re sitting the computer drinking beers.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
I know someone who just retired from Gm who worked 17 years at the GM proving grounds… no one spends more time and money proving vehicles than GM. I saw a add by on mfr touting 6 miles of proving grounds. GM has 130 miles .. including a 5 mile oval.
I’ve owned many new first year vehicles from GM and drive in the toughest part of the country ..western Pa.. I have no problem with GM proving a vehicle. You see very few of the popular hybrids of today in this part of the country… one news report last year was reporting that the Prius is only getting 26mpg in the winter months … I get 24 mpg on my Buick going to work.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
I found the (short) article in Wired about Lyle (who runs this web site) to be extremely interesting. See #52 above.
November 17th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Check out what our cousins are saying in London, England re: their # 1 electric car. Approximately 700 on the road. Called the G-Wiz.
What’s it like to live with? Well firstly you have to plug it into the mains to recharge the battery. That means you really need to have a drive or some form of secure off street parking facility to recharge the car overnight, which costs about 30p, depending on your electricity tariff. The maximum range of 40 miles is dependent upon the time of year (the batteries don’t last as long in winter), whether you use the heater (which reduces the already low range by a further 10 miles) and whether you drive in the “economy” or “full-power” (42mph) mode in the automatic gearbox.
The G-Wiz is a very important ground-breaking car and the company behind it, GoinGreen, should be applauded for their efforts, but the car will only appeal to a certain audience as it has seriously limited practicality for the majority of people.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
“We’ve been asked by many well meaning factions (such as government), ‘how can we help’”
The government can start by providing more funding for battery research (better efficiency, smaller, etc.). At a minimum the government should match what Japan is providing for lithium research. The government should also provide grants to US auto companies to assist with research on low energy components. The more assistance the government provides the quicker we can reduce our dependence on oil and the less GM will have to recoup in the price of the Volt. We have spent over a trillion dollars on the war in Iraq. All though the government does not admit it …the war is all about protecting our oil supply.
1,095 days and counting until the release of the Volt. I can’t wait.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
This Canadian is very thrilled about this not-too-soon, and logical development. Just wish it would happen at more of a surge than a trickle.
But being an optimist, Olympics? Bah! 2010? The Year of the Volt.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Somebody is developing a huge capacitor for energy storage. Maybe it will be the fabled “flux capacitor” ??
November 17th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
OK, I have solved the cold weather issue.
The batteries are liquid cooled right? The electric motor, ICE/generator, power electronics, and batteries will likely be on the same coolant loop, so all you need to do is warm up the coolant while the car is plugged in. The coolant ironically heats all of the vital components in less than 5 minutes and off you go.
The same can be done when not plugged in by simply running the ICE to warm the coolant for a few minutes. I think standard coolant (antifreeze 50/50 water/ethylene glycol) will operate all the way down to -40C.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
85 Brian, I like it! Maybe we should sub-contract ourselves to GM as expert Volt consultants…you never know, John
November 17th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Yes might be some big bucks in it for us armchair “experts”!
November 17th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
# 53 Kent, Are you sure you’re ready to shell out $5K for a new 200A electrical service? So you can charge the Volt in lickidy split time frames? Or maybe $25K for a new 400A service?
November 17th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
40 mile range
I think most people here miss a very important point - everyone thinks GM is trying to get at least a 40 mile range and are struggling to do so (Volt is being compared unfavorably to EV1’s 100+ range). Not so. They are trying to get 40 miles out of the smallest possible (cheapest) battery pack. Batteries are expensive and can be charged by a cheap ICE. Volt could have a range of 100 or 150 miles easily. GM chose a target of 40 miles because this is what most people need and cheap ICE takes care of the rest. This is about money, not limitations of the battery pack.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Talk about spiking demand for the Volt, did anyone see the news today? Just those shots of Hugo Chavez and Amandinijan(sp?) joining the Opec conf. with the Saudis was enough to affirm that I’ll be buying a volt.
M.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Why the jump from 5K to 25K you may ask? Easy, because the electrical equipment manufactures standard sizes are 200 and than 400 for residential. A 200A service can fit between standard 16 OC stud bays and can be installed by my 100 lb daughter. 400A on the other hand is 36 to 48 inches wide and 8 feet tall either over head or underground fed. Weather the load is 1 hour or several hours the NEC code does not care. The new calculations will warrant a new service, stick with the 120-volt “trickle” charge and we all get along just fine.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Szyszek #89
You are correct …it is about money. $8,000 has been thrown around as the cost for the battery to get 40 miles. It does not make sense to spend three times that amount to be able to get 120 miles. I would rather not spend $50,000 for the car to get 120 miles. I believe GM is making the correct decision.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
89 and 92 that’s my point with regards to your electrical service equipment. Let’s stick with the 120-volt charging that GM already planned on.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
mykallb #90
I am with you brother. Hugo Chavez is a buffoon and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a spin master with a secret desire to rule the world.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Yea but we are helping them by our wasteful use of oil that they sell us.
Now who is the fool?
November 18th, 2007 at 12:52 am
This is a car blog.
These are political blogs.
http://www.dailykos.com/
http://www.redstate.com/
November 18th, 2007 at 1:48 am
[quote comment="15114"]“we are looking at an 8 to 10 year warranty battery, and it hasn’t ever been constructed. ”
“If there was (already) a battery that already existed, then it might be a different story”
“Yeah, it’s with no or minimum HVAC”.
Excellent stuff. Nice to see some real information without Lutz’s Shangri-La PR filter applied. I feel more confident about the project when I hear real people actually acknowledging real problems.[/quote]
Don’t take that “battery that already existed” quote out of context.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:43 am
Is the plugin going to be standardized between car manufacturers? I can see an issue especially with 220V, or are people expected to carry charging cables everywhere they go? Obviously a charge station should have a cable ready to plug in??
November 18th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Note that Tesla motor’s (www.teslamotors.com)roadster uses a MUCH larger Li-ion battery to achieve a range about 6X farther than the Volt (”245 mi”) & that they’re designing the battery to last “100,000 mi/5 yrs” with a recharge time “as little as 3.5 hrs” from ordinary household current. By contrast, recharging the Volt’s smaller battery overnight should be a piece of cake! And remember the Tesla doesn’t have an ICE for backup charging –so it HAS to get its much bigger battery fully recharged overnight!
November 18th, 2007 at 8:03 am
I can’t help but wonder. Is anyone at GM who is a decision maker actually reading these comments?
November 18th, 2007 at 8:56 am
Woohoo sheer dumb luck, I built my home with 200 amp service. I love it when a plan comes together!
1. I’m concerned about battery memory. I drive 15 miles a day round trip for work. Will my battery eventually “learn” that is the expectation and eventually come my new range?
2. What will this do to my home electric bill?
#75 - James here’s a thumbs up to you!
November 18th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Re: Jim 101 —
1) Li-ion has very little memory, so it won’t be a problem for you
2) For most areas of the US the WH electric rate is low enough that your electric bill should only increase by 1-2 cents/mile; so your bill for 15 miles/day would be only about 15-30 cents more.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Just as we choose transmission, diesel or gasoline, upholstery, color etc., let us choose the battery pack.
In those many populous areas that don’t suffer harsh winters, there are potentially thousands of owners who
would not balk at an EV having a 40km round trip capability.
And what is to stop one switching their pack as development occurs and prices permit greater choice. We’ve certainly seen dramatic price-drop of small rechargables.
I suspect game-playing in the auto battery field, to keep prices artificially high.
AC in any vehicle leaves me cold. My Volt would come in white or silver.
Let’s get on with it. Let’s imagine we need ‘em to fight a war.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:50 am
# Jim Says:
November 18th, 2007 at 8:03 am Quote
I can’t help but wonder. Is anyone at GM who is a decision maker actually reading these comments?
skeptikool:
If he/she/they aren’t, they should be - and, I suspect, avidly peruse these gems.
As I have done, others may wish to link this comments-list to other message boards. There’s some quite vibrant discussion happening. Let’s spread the word and keep it going.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Thank you Phil Toney 102. That’s good to read the answers you hope for.
Jim
November 18th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Please, GM, or whoever takes on this challenge:
This is about the all-too-real and not-too-distant future! It should not (read CANNOT)be about profit!
What we need is a mobilization mentality the likes of which we have not seen in this country since WWII. Some of this is our (the consumer’s) fault. We consume so much here as Americans, we’re so complacent and comfortable with what we have, that no corporation really believes we’re serious about moving in a significantly greener direction.
I personally do not believe that the environmentalists are crying wolf on this one. Think about it…how can we continue at this rate of consumtion without paying a heavy price?
GM, please help me, the average(?) $60-$80,000 per year household income guy, make a difference NOW!
November 18th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
I have read most comments and am (guardedly optomistic) that the Volt will be produced. One issue that has NOT been addressed is the REBATE/Financing issue.
Remember the new Energy Bill (according to my understanding) still offers a substantial rebate for large vehicles like the Hummer, Esplanade, etc. that amounts to around $25,000. due to these SUVs being classed in the “Commercial Vehicle” category. This was reduced from the $75,000 redate 1+ years ago.
Legislators need to PASS a bill allowing substantial rebates for the Volt and other vehicles like it. The IRS needs to simplfy their requirements to record this rebate also. (Prior requirements to get the “marginal” rebate on your taxes was to place the $3,000 deduction on line 33 with a hand written phrase above the line stating “clean fuel”. Of couse there was no easy way to get instructions about obtaining this deduction from the IRS.
BOTTOM LINE: Tax Incentives need to be changed so GM and others can justify additional resources in getting Volt-like products to the main-stream quicker. Until Congress makes major changes (and I don’t think they are up to it) Representatives are just using talking points with NO CHANGE.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
The following quote is so tragically sad. The NiMH Panasonic EV-95 battery in the Toyota RAV4 EV’s are here and proven, yet GM reps insist they do not exist. I have personally asked Bob Lutz to use them, but he will not even consider consider it…
“A (TP): “Absolutely”..”There is a certain time required to get this car going.””We are leveraging certain existing architecture, but many things will be new.”..“There will be certain family resemblances to the show car, but, in order to achieve the 40 miles of EV range, the car has been blowing through a wind tunnel, and it will have differences.” “efficiency is the most important thing, and aero is huge. (also) the more you slip through the air, the more regenerative braking you get.”
“If there was (already) a battery that already existed, then it might be a different story”
November 18th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Well said, Ken, I couldn’t agree more. . .
[quote comment="15329"]I have read most comments and am (guardedly optomistic) that the Volt will be produced. One issue that has NOT been addressed is the REBATE/Financing issue.
Remember the new Energy Bill (according to my understanding) still offers a substantial rebate for large vehicles like the Hummer, Esplanade, etc. that amounts to around $25,000. due to these SUVs being classed in the “Commercial Vehicle” category. This was reduced from the $75,000 redate 1+ years ago.
Legislators need to PASS a bill allowing substantial rebates for the Volt and other vehicles like it. The IRS needs to simplfy their requirements to record this rebate also. (Prior requirements to get the “marginal” rebate on your taxes was to place the $3,000 deduction on line 33 with a hand written phrase above the line stating “clean fuel”. Of couse there was no easy way to get instructions about obtaining this deduction from the IRS.
BOTTOM LINE: Tax Incentives need to be changed so GM and others can justify additional resources in getting Volt-like products to the main-stream quicker. Until Congress makes major changes (and I don’t think they are up to it) Representatives are just using talking points with NO CHANGE.[/quote]
November 18th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Not as radical as it may sound. We have buses in some cities running directly off the power grid. How difficult would it be to devise a system where cars ran directly off the grid?
Without the battery pack the vehicle could be significantly lighter and smaller. There would still be a small emergency power supply to move short distances - just as the buses carry.
Power use could be metered on the vehicle or, better, paid for according to odometer reading.
There are many sources of “green” electricity that have been only scratched at, particularly tidal and wave.
November 18th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Food for thought to those who are arguing for less battery capacity on the Volt to reduce cost, and to those who want more, please consider the following argument for a 40 mile range. The goal is a PHEV in everyone’s driveway, thus it must be affordable and practical. The Tesla Roadster a marvelous piece of engineering, but it is not practical for the average American family—I can’t afford $100K for a family car and I often drive 600+ miles in one day to visit family.
The key to getting cost down will be economies of scale made possible through mass production. I’ve read that the 40 mile range battery being designed for the Volt has a mass production target cost in the neighborhood of $2000-$4000, not $10,000+. With smart system engineering, this additive cost can be reduced by the Volt’s elimination of the transmission, combined with the use of a small engine, generator and electric motors. Thus the cost of using a 40 mile range battery in the Volt is not necessarily additive on a 1 for 1 basis, as it would be on a PHEV based on the Toyota Prius. The Prius chassis has a larger engine, a transmission, electric motors and would need a large PHEV battery – it is a more complicated design and thus more expensive to produce.
More importantly, If GM can build and competitively price a PHEV with a 40 mile battery range, the potential impact on US oil consumption would be huge. According to the American Driving Patterns graph on A123’s website, http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/index.php#/applications/phev/pchart6/, approximately 70% of Americans drive 40 miles or less each day. For simplicity, if all Americans drove a PHEV with a 40 mile battery range, then 70% of our daily gasoline demand would be eliminated. Said differently, we import approximately 70 percent of our oil, and this would eliminate 70% of our demand.
Not only could it eliminate the need to import oil, but it could also reduce demand for domestically produced oil as well. Approximately 18% Americans drive between 40 and 80 miles per day. If they all drove a PHEV with a 40 mile battery range, they would only use .8 gallons of gas per day, or less. This is equivalent to 100 MPG or better, which is a reduction in fuel consumption by at least a factor of 4. (Assumes this 18% averages 25 MPG today). That alone would eliminate at least another 13.5% of our daily fuel demand. (18% * 1/4 = 4.5%, and 18% - 4.5% = 13.5%)
In my opinion, the genius of the E-Flex chassis is that the sustainer engine/generator is simply a plug in module that supplies electricity. GM can just as easily drop in a diesel engine/generator (as they did on their OPEL concept car in Germany, which is also based on the E-Flex chassis) or a hydrogen power fuel cell, or extra battery capacity to produce a 100% battery powered vehicle. Technically, it only depends on the energy infrastructure in place…and perhaps, which option box you check.
For the die hard EV1 fans who have been posting, I wonder if GM would consider a Volt option to delete the sustainer engine and generator, and replace it with 2 additional A123 battery packs (for a total of 3, vice the 1 under the floor)? This would create an all electric Volt with a 120 mile range, and it would make an outstanding commuter car.
November 18th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
jim 100, i’m guessing that gm loves this site, lots of free ideas to help them improve their product at no cost to them.
kinda like linux (sp.?) for computers, and the hundreds of other open products available on line…
November 19th, 2007 at 10:48 am
Hi all,
I believe the original post questioning charging the batteries was by someone who doesn’t live “on the grid.” I have an easy solution for the people who live in a remote location without electricity. The vehicle will have an onboard fast charging system via the gas engine. Granted, it won’t be recommended that it be used exclusively as the life of any battery decreases if you only use the fast-charge cycle; but, then again, if you live that far out, you’ve probably got a generator of some sort anyways. It’ll use significantly less gas than running the car on the engine because the batteries are flat or not present due to purchase options and it’ll offer a limited solution to those who live in apartments as well.
regards,
Jamie
November 19th, 2007 at 11:08 am
About LiIon batteries (although the actual cell types for Volt are different Lithium chemsitry, it should share most of the main charactersistics of the commonly used LiIon today)
As said, LiIon and NiMH do prefer storage around 32F temperature in order to reduce any chemical reactions thus minimizing self discharge. Therefore, a car sitting in a cold 32F and below will be keeping most of its stored energy very well.
For the same reason, batteries work poorly at 32F and below. Batteries supply electrical energy via a chemical reacton. Chemical reaction is much slower at lower temperatures and much faster at higher. Therefore, below 32F cells cannot produce as much as at 70F and 80F. Of course, at higher temps some damage may occur to the internal cell structure, so we cool them to prevent overheating. However, chemical reaction is faster at higher temps, so corresponding electrical energy output is much higher at 80F than at 0F.
For instance, take your flashlight and leave it outside during the night. Then first thing in the morning turn it on and observe its light output and duration. After 5-10 min the light will be dim, very weak. Compared to summer when the same flashlight will work for hours just fine.
As mentioned, this is not a problem while pluged in garage say, as car’s software would probably use some of incoming electricity to maintain the ideal battery pack temperature (in case of cold, heat it with a small heating element presumably). The problem occurs while car is parked on a lot (office, shopping, etc) without any electrical supply. I suspect that at very low temps like 0F batteries my have to spend some time, say 15 min just warming up themselves and/or ICE would have to do it.
While operating batteries don’t generate much heat, except under heavy load (hard acceleration). Therefore in general they would not produce enough heat to keep the cabin warm. At most they may produce enough heat to keep themselves warm while driving at 0F on a highway. So don’t expect much heat from battery pack.
Lithium and NiMH don’t have much memory problems like older types, so not an issue.
So considering cold starts at very low temps (0F) it is my guess that an ICE would be much faster delivering the heat than battery pack. Therefore for Canadian market this car would still rely on ICE during winter months to ensure proper battery pack operation. My guess is that the car software will have a minimum operating temperature for battery pack. Below this temperature it would use either grid power or ICE to warmup battery pack. Only once the pack reaches the minimum operating temp the software would engage battery power supply and not before.
The unfortunate fact is that a car say in Ottawa in February at -10F will need extra energy just to warmup REGARDLESS of energy/engine type used. Today we need minimum 2-3 min idle to warmup and clean windows - wasted energy. While driving the cold air is removing much more heat from engine block than during summer, again extra energy wasted. Therefore, the only solution for us is to have even bigger battery pack that could supply extra energy for heat. For now the hybrid battery/ICE drive will work reasonably well. Canadians will just have to burn more fuel during winter months. Now excuse me, I have to squeeze some more oil form the oil sands
Hope this helps answer some the questions.
November 19th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
GTX said: Excellent stuff. Nice to see some real information without Lutz’s Shangri-La PR filter applied. I feel more confident about the project when I hear real people actually acknowledging real problems.
GTS, Don’t knock Bob Lutz, he is the a major contributor to the volt idea and a big supporter of the concept. Without him, I doubt it would happen. It’s like his child. Read the new book “Zoom, The Global Race to Fuel the Car of the future” Lutz is one of the few great visionary’s left in the lackluster American Automobile industry. GM took their eye off the ball and let Toyota take the cheese. The Volt is do or die for GM and Lutz knows it. Fortunately, Toyota has stumbled with their plug in Prius and there is some breathing room. Go GM.
November 19th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
re: service size.
If you have two spare spaces in your panel .. chances are you will be OK… even if you have a 100amp service… just don’t charge when you are drying clothes..have the A/c on .. have the elec oven on.. all at the same time.. you most likely will be charging at night when all these will be off. The other thing to do is to get a ammeter put on the main line.. you can monitor how much your demand is.
I don’t think most people will have much of a problem if you just think about your electric demand a little.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:03 am
My brain is one of those fabled ‘flux capacitors’.
Keep it up everyone. This is the only website where I actually read the comments.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:50 am
There is a lot of concern about heating and cooling the cabin but I think we need to reflect on the fact that the heater in our IC engine powered car is merely recovering a small fraction of the wasted energy escaping as heat from an engine that is only about 30% efficient most of the time. Contrast that with the 90% efficiency of the electric motor. We are looking at a net gain of perhaps 60% in efficency. So what if you lose some range on a hot or cold day. There is no way your current gas hog can compare. Just think, No belts no pulleys, no oil, no air filter, cams, lifters, etc. (range extender excluded) Add the hydrogen fuel cell comming in the future and we do away with all of that nonsense forever.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
They are right about aero dynamics. 70% of a vehicle’s energy is used to push air out of its way.
November 21st, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Actually, in a car, most of the energy is wasted moving the mass. Aerodynamics only come into play as speed increases above 50 MPH, as drag is primarily a function of the air velocity squared.
If you really want to double both the Electric range and the MPG of the sustainer engine, cut the vehicle weight in half. An all composite vehicle could do that, and the technology exists today to build it economically (do a Google search on FiberForge). However, I think GM would be wise to take it one revolution at a time, and focus on batteries that make PHEV possible (i.e., 3650 full duty cycles). Perhaps an all composite PHEV could be a follow on vehicle with an 80 mile battery range and 100 MPG on the sustainer engine. (Do a search on the Hypercar concept for the details if curious)
November 22nd, 2007 at 8:15 am
excerpted from message a board:
“I’m all for electric cars, but why did they have to make this thing so damned ugly?”
“Ugly, you say?! Hummer and Aztek is ugly.
The Volt? A thing of beauty that will last forever. Well, a long time, with care.
True its nose is a little blunt but, I’m sure, more than compensated for by a sweet ass.”
——————————————–
Well, on that nose, with the considerable discussion vehicle power and aerodynamics,
this proboscis, and performance, wouldn’t suffer with a little sharper entry.
November 23rd, 2007 at 1:03 am
What a hoot! There was NO range anxiety with the EV1! NONE of the EV1 drivers complained about range!
Ignorance.
“…We have ripe in our minds, the EV-1 experience of ‘range anxiety’…”
Also, the last statement was false, the battery DOES exist now. It’s running every day, Nickel batteries in the Rav4-EV.
GM lies again, and no one knows enough to catch them on it.
November 23rd, 2007 at 10:25 am
Question: Will the Nickel batteries used in the RAV4 last ten years, or 3650 full duties cycles as demanded by California and still maintain 85% of their capacity? Is this vehicle in production anywhere, or is it just a prototype vehicle? Do you have any informtion on them that you can provide the link to?
November 24th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Chad 123,
There is so much well-meaning ignorance, it’s laughable. Most of these people don’t know anything about the past history of EVs, the triumphs and tragedies; for example, how the power brake and steering problems were solved, how heating and A/C are done on an EV, or the efficiency of an EV.
In general, an EV travels 3 to 6 miles on one kWh of electric; a gallon of gas has the energy equivalent of about 35 kWh.
Most don’t even know that Toyota, instead of crushing the last 328 Toyota RAV4-EV, voluntarily sold them to the general public during one six-month period between Mar. and Nov. 2002, the only time when a modern Electric car was ever offered for sale (some pickups were later sold for $1 by Ford, but no other CAR).
Design work on the Toyota RAV4-EV ended in 1997.
So if they had been forced to, there would have been yearly improvements, and new models, coupes, sports cars, etc. But we just have the one frozen design.
So far, more than 5 years after the last one was sold, all of them are still in service, and all are above 80 miles range. Most are above 100 miles range. Two have damaged battery packs (charged above 120 degrees, not allowed to do thermal feedback).
How much longer they will last, without support, no one knows.
But one thing we do know is that no Lithium battery has EVER performed as well.
Nickel is the standard battery for EVs, the only battery that carries an EV more than 100,000 miles at over 100 miles per charge, without help from any gas engine.
But too much personal attacks on this site; Lyle, while honest, knows nothing about EVs, and no one at GM is talking to anyone that knows anything about EVs.
Imagine, after 6 years, 600 “fuel cell engineers” moved over to the Volt. Well, on fuel cells, as we know to be a hoax, there’s not much they could have done except work on the power train, all those years; yet they don’t have a power train even!! So what were they working on??? LOL!
November 24th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
wirenutjd 16 RE: Charging.
Think RV. At RV parks, we plug into 240 or 208 50 Amp circuits to charge up to 12 kW.
Each 240 plug has 120, it’s two hot wires out of phase and neutral-ground (depending on GFCI). There’s no mystery about how to get 220 or how to get 110 out of it.
We typically plug into dryer outlets at 30A 240, but can also plug into household current at 120 (or 110). You can figure the Amps by using the formula W=A*V.
November 24th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Does anyone even know that the EV1, which GM created, had an EPA certified range of 140 (I still have the sticker) and we often got 160 miles?
Then how does GM get away with claiming the they can’t envision more than 50 miles all-electric range??
There are still hundreds of running Toyota RAV4-EV with more than 100 miles range, on Nickel batteries, more than 5 years after they were last sold.
So who braces GM on their lies??