In an article in the Detroit Press, figures are given with respect to the 2.7 million Americans shopping for a new family sedan.
According to GM research, 20% have an American brand in mind prior to purchase, and 20% are “import neutral”; they would buy either U.S. or foreign. However, the majority, a full 60% are against buying a U.S. brand car and those people vary from mild to severely averse.
The point of this article was that the U.S. automakers despite now making great cars still struggle against their mistakes of the 80s and 90s.
Bob Lutz sees recent declines in Toyota quality ratings as a window of opportunity for GM.
Although the Chevy Volt was not mentioned by name, it’s introduction might just turn the tide.
Source (Detroit Free Press)
This entry was posted on Tuesday, November 13th, 2007 at 12:00 am and is filed under Brand, General, Public Opinion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Nov 13th, 2007 (12:05 am)The decline in confidence started big time with the Chevy Vega and the Olds diesel. It still continues. Look at how many built tough GM trucks are running around with 1 eye.
Nov 13th, 2007 (12:06 am)Per the article, the Volt does just what Lutz has always stated GM was negligent in NOT doing….Taking a few educated/good chances.
I don’t believe the Volt should be considered a “chance”, but rather, a chance to LEAD.
M.
Nov 13th, 2007 (12:16 am)I have read dozens of times that American car quality is improving or has improved or is as good as Japanese now etc. but my experience simply doesn’t bear that out. I have been in many late model American rental cars and a few of my friends have American cars and they still seem sub-par. Wide, uneven panel gaps, extremely cheap interiors, jerky automatic transmissions, too much engine noise and vibration, etc. Plus, Honda, Nissan, VW, etc. all have sleek, distinct, modern, familiar styles, whereas American cars all look like a jumbled mess. Maybe that’s what happens when one comes from Australia, one comes from Korea, etc.
Basically, I hate American cars, I think the Volt is ugly, I expect it to have poor material and build quality, but I want to drive an electric car enough that I’d buy one anyway.
Nov 13th, 2007 (12:35 am)Until recently, almost everything GM and other automakers have done in the past few decades could be explained by “we need money, and we need it now.” They developed hybrid technology and sold it off. They developed electric cars and acquired battery technology and sold it off. They took big government contracts for hydrogen vehicles and have yet to mass produce them. Their most fuel efficient vehicles have been rebranded Japanese and Korean designs. A few years ago, unless you were buying an Escalade or a Hummer or a Corvette, buying a GM was a mere act of pity.
I blame the unions and the management for this as well. They both signed on to agreements unhealthy for future generations of workers and long term shareholders.
It’s good to see that they are turning the corner with for example the clean sweep of the Detroit Auto show, the new Chevy Malibu, and the Volt spurring a renaissance in Detroit. I think people sometimes do their best work when they’re on their last leg. Quality really does cost less. That’s such an obvious lesson, but so hard to apply coming from the shortsighted and reptilian sociopaths with golden parachutes that run so many of our public American companies.
Nov 13th, 2007 (12:46 am)I have also driven a number of poorly made American cars in the past. This was one of the main reasons the last vehicle I purchased was a Honda Accord. It’s a 4-cylinder ULEV and gets amazing gas mileage, not to mention I have not had any major problems with it yet.
Having said this, however, I believe the pendulum is swinging back into GM’s favor. GM has learned from its mistakes and has been making quality cars for the past few years (see Consumer Reports).
Tom – I really have to disagree man. For GM to skimp on the Volt would be one of the worst things that it could do. Not only will the Volt be GM’s first E-Flex PHEV, but it will also be a symbol. A symbol of a new GM. A symbol that they are not only a leader technologically, but also a leader in in green vehicles and quality manufacturing.
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:03 am)In 2000 I moved from the UK to the USA.
I needed to buy a car.
I wanted either a station wagon (in UK we say estate), or a minivan with a row of fold down seats.
My belief was buy local when possible.
So I tried to buy made in USA, but no such vehicle met that specification. There are now plenty of vehicles that meet that spec and made in the USA, they just came to the party too late.
Now I want to buy a practical electric vehicle, if necessary I’ll wait an extra year or 18 months to buy made in the USA. I’m hoping and expecting that GM will be first to this party!
I do go out of my way to buy made in USA when practical (and I’m not even a US citizen).
There will be serious long term consequences to a never ending balance of trade deficit. Maybe we are seeing some of that now with the dollar falling. Giving mortgages to people who cannot afford them has economic consequences, and so does importing more than you export. In the end you have to pay the piper.
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:15 am)I think there is a very important missed point here in this article.
For at least the last 10 years, all the real development and advertising money from GM, Ford, and Chrysler went to the BIG SUV’s, because that is what their customers wanted. Cars took a second place, because they could not build those big old gas hogs fast enough, and they were highly profitable. The foreign manufacturers saw the opportunity in the car market and took it. And now they are way ahead.
Now with gas prices going to new highs, people are saying enough. We really don’t need an 8 seat vehicle that gets 15 MPG to drive ourselves to work, and 4WD when we never plan to take the vehicle off road!
So now we want to look at cars again. We want to get real mileage, but have all the room and conveniences we are now used to having. And we all want to be “Green”, because green is in! GM, Ford, and Chrysler are hearing us. They are now advertising want we want to hear. But the advertising is way ahead of what is currently available.
So I don’t think that most of us hate American cars. It is just that for right now, what is available from the U.S. manufacturers, is mostly boring. I truly believe they are going to fix this. However, they have a very short window of opportunity to get it right. If they spend the next four or five years fumbling around, I have a hard time seeing how they can recover.
IMHO, each of the auto makers needs to get one new, well made, highly fuel efficient (be that electric, hybrid or whatever) model in the showrooms within the next 12-18 months. And then follow it up with more new models on a regular basis. And I mean NEW models, not just rehashed existing lines.
If GM wants Volt to be the new model for Chevy, GREAT! So start working around the clock in all departments (design, engineering, and production), to get it rolling off the assembly lines ASAP.
You need this vehicle to return you to the head of the pack. We want the vehicle.
Let’s Go!!!!!
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:33 am)My last American branded car was a Chevette, rear wheel drive. Worked ok, but I dented the front end in (I rear ended someone in stop and go traffic on a sleet covered highway)… only going 5 miles an hour the Chevette took all the damage (the other guys bumper just had a scratch).
I drove my brand new 1987 bare bones Nissan Sentra for 12 years and 130,000 miles, and the only major work it needed was to replace the clutch at 100,000 miles (and I went through several exhaust pipes/mufflers, but I did the work myself). And I never went in for scheduled service, just changed the oil/filter myself every 3-5k miles. By the way, it was made by Americans in TN, but non-union labor. It also got a reliable 35 miles/gallon highway for it’s entire life (and I like to drive and acclerate fast so I probably could have got more if I had wanted to).
It took me 10 months of looking and I test drove many cars, and sat in the back seat of many more (I’m 6′, mostly upper body, so I wanted a car with headroom in front and back, and lots of cars just didn’t have that). I finally ended up buying a Volvo S70 T5, lots of headroom, great safety record, lots of power. I’ve now had that 8 years, 75,000 miles. 2 weeks after the 5 year warrenty ran out the air mass filter failed. Volvo replaced it, as well as the computer, under what they called “good will” (just a little past warrenty ended but they want a repeat customer). And earlier this year the car went into limp home mode off/on… turned out I ignored a voluntary recall to upgrade the ETS software, so again no cost and the car is working fine again. I also ignore schedule maint. with this vehicle as well, I just try to change the oil/filter every 3-4k miles (and the air filter), and on this one I only use 92 octane (recommended by Volvo on this one). Of course the big problem is I average only 21 mpg, and because it’s 92 octane fill ups, in hindsight I should have stuck with a smaller car.
So in 2011 my car will be almost ready to replace anyway, and depending on what else is (or better yet isn’t) available in that time frame, the Volt is very high on my list. I’m not an early adopter of any new make/model, be it cars, or electronics (I just got my 1st cell phone this past summer, and no, it’s not an iPhone), so I will wait anyway to see how the quality is, etc. So I could be driving a Chevy 25 years after I stopped driving one…
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:46 am)#6 (Jim)… regarding customers wanting the large vehicles…
Which came 1st, the chicken or the egg? Ie. did the big 3 make and advertise trucks and SUV’s because Americans wanted them, or did Americans want them because big auto convinced them they wanted them?
When I got my 1st drivers license over 25 years ago there were no SUV’s and trucks were only driven by those that really needed them (mainly businesses, farmers, etc). Driving down the highway in a sedan you could actually see the guy 6 cars in front of you braking. Station wagons ruled for those with families.
Somewhere along the way big auto figured out that their profit on a big gas guzzler is much more than on regular cars. It could also correspond with the increases in Americans waist lines? In any case, you can’t blame them, they are public companies and have share holders (and board members) to keep happy. If anyone should be blamed, it’s government for giving in to the lobby’s and not increasing CAFE standards in so long, and actually providing tax incenstives to get a Hummer.
Nov 13th, 2007 (6:58 am)I bought one of those mistakes in the 80′s. A 1986 Pontiac Sunbird. A complete piece of junk and promised myself to never buy an American car again. The Volt will be my first since 1986.
Nov 13th, 2007 (8:17 am)Guess I’ll never understand those who buy “a piece of junk” and use that isolated experience as an excuse to conclude all American cars are junk and promise never to buy an American car again.
I’m 69 years old and have had only 2 cars that were junk; a Chevy Vega and a step side Chevy Pickup that developed “terminal cancer”. All the other cars I’ve ever owned (GM & Ford) were good cars, at least for the times.
Let’s not forget there have been quite a few foreign (non-USA) made cars that were also “junk”.
Nov 13th, 2007 (8:37 am)“Let’s not forget there have been quite a few foreign (non-USA) made cars that were also “junk”. ”
Maybe, but I never owned one. They have all gone over 150 thousand miles just fine.
My Elantra right now is just shy of 150K and runs excellent. It will easily go over 200K and it wouldn’t surprise me if it reached 300K. This Elantra is surprisingly well built and gets 31 mpg.
My point in #10 is this. Perception is very important. I had bad luck with the Pontiac. I have told other people about it. They have told me to buy Honda or Toyota. I in turn repeated that (and bought a Honda). I have maintained (wrong or right) that American car companies make junk and I wouldn’t buy one. I am obviously not alone when 60% of new car buyers aren’t even considering an American car. Why, because American car are made so well? NO. Because they are perceived to be a pile of junk.
This is precisely why GM must, must, must get this Volt right. Must not make it junk. Must make it the most reliable car they have ever built. Must be as close to perfect as possible. And when it is these things, WE must promote it. The only way for the bad perception of American cars to go away is to really make them very reliable and very well made and for us to promote that.
Nov 13th, 2007 (10:25 am)My family has had 8 GM vehicles in the past 15 years between 4 members, the only one that was reliable was my 1988 Firebird, only routine maintenece and an alternator on that. We never had another GM vehicle that broke 100,000miles without breaking. I had a 99 S10 with a bad transmission at 30K – replaced under warranty, 38K transmission wnet bad again – No more warranty. Sold the truck at a Loss. Had a 2001 S10 no problems untill i had tranny issues at 40K got that fixed, starter went bad at 60K then the engine blew at 80K, Sold that at a loss. Parents had a blazer that was a lemon from the day we brought it home a windstar that blew an engine at 27K (warranty replaced it but it happened on christmas eve and stranded us – very inconvienient) A cavaleer that had differential problems. Needless to say I swore I would never buy a GM made vehicle ever again after always wanting to support them. I currently drive a 2006 Scion XB it is at 45,000 miles and still feels like the day I drove it off the lot. It will be paid off in 2009 – GM -do the volt right this is your last chance for a lifetime customer.
Nov 13th, 2007 (10:31 am)30 years of sub-standard quality and cost cutting to maximize profits has almost destroyed Detroit. Has GM learned to make vehicles like the Japanese where quality is REALLY job 1 or are they still driven by greed? We’ll see…
Nov 13th, 2007 (10:43 am)I am in that 60%, I would put it at a mild aversion. I did drive a chevy rental when I was in california, and good lord was it powerful. I am used my my gas sipping honda and I was screeching all over the place.
ALOT of the problem with american cars is pure looks. Why cant they just copy a lexus body and put a chevy under it?
Nov 13th, 2007 (10:53 am)Regarding the large vehicle. Big auto did not force anyone to buy SUV’s. First the station wagon became uncool, then the minivan.
If you have never packed up 2 kids, the associated kid stuff, your stuff and a dog for a 3 day weekend at grandmas house, you won’t understand why people need minivans/suvs.
Nov 13th, 2007 (11:22 am)I think the problem is that people over do it. There is a house by my apartments and the husband and wife both drive a hummer. They have 2 kids and the wife is a stay at home mom. So they can pack up everything to go to grannys just fine in one of them, but why doesn’t the husband who commutes to work daily drive something that is more fuel efficient? Becasue it doesnt have the status with it. A minivan that gets 22-25 miles per gallon to replace the other hummer would be a big step up. People dont NEED an escalade or Tahoe to get to grannies, they choose it to be cool. Nothing drives me nuts more than seeing Huge SUVs being driven as a commuter car. 7 seats, 1 person being moved, rediculous. My work parking lot is about 50% huge SUVs, land rovers, escalades, hummers and the like, it is wasteful.
Big auto made these vehicles because there was a demand, broncos and old blazers from the 80′s were not very popular. It was the glorification of SUV’s by society that created the demand. Big auto met this demand. If people stopped buying them and using them, car companies would stop making them.
Nov 13th, 2007 (11:27 am)I’m one of these people; I currently drive a BMW Z4 (my fun/primary car) and a Subaru wagon (my snow/cargo car). I looked at American cars before I bought the Z4 in 2003 and found all the American car stereotypes in the Mustang and Camaro. I loathe SUVs (why my “big” AWD vehicle is a wagon) so I generally would write off most American vehicles.
The Volt is just the sort of thing to turn me around, so hopefully it will do so for many others as well. It’s innovative, and I feel innovation has been sorely lacking in American brands, who’ve only seemed interested in making bigger vehicles with bigger engines. If it comes out when they say, for the price they say, especially if it has a good warranty and stuff, I absolutely will get one, and will be proud to do so.
Nov 13th, 2007 (11:31 am)RE Post #11, Estero,
“Guess I’ll never understand those who buy “a piece of junk” and use that isolated experience as an excuse to conclude all American cars are junk….”
Excellent point.
If someone used the same logic to stereotype all people of a particular race based on their experiences with one person, they would be called racist. And rightly so.
Nov 13th, 2007 (11:40 am)I understand that the Volt will use lightweight materials from GE Plastics (recently sold off to the Saudis). I hope this doesn’t result in poor quality, e.g. photodecomposition of panels and trim, rattling, etc.
Nov 13th, 2007 (12:06 pm)Mark at #19
“RE Post #11, Estero,
“Guess I’ll never understand those who buy “a piece of junk” and use that isolated experience as an excuse to conclude all American cars are junk….”
Excellent point.
If someone used the same logic to stereotype all people of a particular race based on their experiences with one person, they would be called racist. And rightly so. ”
This analogy is all wet. I spent 11K on a piece of junk called a Pontiac Sunbird back in 1986. I basically threw that money out the window (or gave it to GM). I was determined to be more careful the next time I spent that much money. So next time, I bought a Honda and never bought another American car again. Throwing away 11K and putting me in the same class as a racist doesn’t seem right. I have nothing against any race or gender. I do have something against GM. After all, they are the ones that screwed me and bunch of other people.
Are you saying that 60% of the people are wrong? GM needs to wake up and make an excellent Volt. I plan to be one of the first to buy one.
Nov 13th, 2007 (12:37 pm)GM vehicles are an excellent example of how bad the cars could be. Anyone owning a GM car would have asked himself a question atleast once. Can a car be this bad and unreliable ?
Dont put too much trust in the new 2008 Malibu. See below the quote from Wikipedia for 2000+ model malibu.
“Many design and technical problems plagued this generation of Malibus, such as intake manifold gasket leaks, fuel pump failures, air conditioning component problems, and transmission disasters. GM has been criticized because of their failure to aid owners in paying for costly repair of their Malibus. GM, to date, has offered no recall.”
No only GM makes worst cars but also they are arrogant and indifferent to customer compliants and offered no recall on the above Malibus.
So people should wait and think twice before deciding on 2008 new malibu. Only future and Volt will tell how GM is changing their mind and greediness.
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:13 pm)Predicting future quality:
Just going by an individual experience is not a good indication of the future. Even if it is your own experience.
Neither should you look at who is angry enough to write bad reviews on the web. You need to survey a representative sample.
Use Consumer Reports, JD Power, etc.
A pooled group of experiences across a statistically significant sample may be an indication of the future. That is unless you believe that the manufacturer has/is acknowledging a problem and taking steps to rectify it.
In post #21, re my post #19 my point was missed. But poster #21, makes my point very well.
Because of one bad American made car he never bought another American made car. Would the poster apply the same logic in other categories too. e.g. because of one badly cooked Italian meal in one Italian restaurant would he never eat Italian food again, or never go to another Italian restaurant?
The point is not to make assumptions about wide categories based on limited experiences, e.g. all American made cars, or all GM cars, there are different models, different platforms, made in different plants, across different decades. Similarly don’t judge all people base on one person, don’t judge all restaurants based on one restaurant.
Sure don’t be blind either.
When there is a lot of choice it is easy to make decisions based on limited personal experience. That’s human nature, but not necessarily to your advantage.
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:20 pm)My experience has been the opposite. My first car was a 1985 Toyota Celica. It was fine for the first 80,000 miles but then I had to put 3 or 4 thousand a year in it for the next couple of years so I dumped it. My next car was a 1992 Pontiac Bonneville. I had the Bonneville for 7 years (125,000 miles) with no problems at all. My current car is a 1999 Ford and have had no problems at all(8 years and 125,000 miles). I bought my son a 2001 Toyota 4Runner two years ago with 64,000 miles on it and have to spend about $5,000 on major repairs.
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:23 pm)So many anti-GM people on this site, yet, they’re willing to wait three more years eagerly anticipating a car that doesn’t even exist yet and be the first in line to buy one. How ironic. You people are setting yourselves up for failure yet again, because when you find just ONE little thing wrong with the car you’ll say the same thing all over again. “I bought a Chevy Volt and it was horrible cuz the door rattled!” Do us all a favor and stick to foreign cars, and let us but American. You prefer it that way anyway, right?
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:24 pm)Mr Mark:
When comes to Human nature, this what happens.
A consumer would also think before buying a vehicle, What is the overall quality of the brand that I am going to buy apart from the particular vehicle ?
This will play a significant role is the final decision.
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:37 pm)Mark #23. You are completely missing my point. If the Italian meal was bad, I’m out about $50, not 11,000 thousand dollars.
If a person is going to spend that much on something, why on Earth should they not expect it to work properly? Why is it okay to spend this much on a car and it not work right? What else would you spend 11 thousand dollars on and be satisfied that it didn’t work?
I have owned 1 Honda, 1 Nissan, 1 Hyundai, and 1 Subaru. Not one of those makers sold me a piece of junk. Not one.
Now, to your point, perhaps it is not fair to judge all American car companies based on the Pontiac Sunbird I bought. But I threw 11,000 dollars away. I base it on that and other peoples experience with their make and model of car. I have heard people rant and rave about how great their Honda or Toyota is. I can’t recall hearing anyone do the same for an American car.
Remember, I am in the 60% group, so I am nowheres near alone. But I want this Volt.
I will judge GM again, but this time with the possibility of throwing away 30,000 thousand dollars. I will admit, I don’t have a warm fuzzy with buying another GM car, but I don’t have a warm fuzzy helping Middle Eastern governments either.
I took a quick survey of the 10 people in my department. 2 have American cars, the rest is a mix of Honda, VW, Nissan, Toyota, and Hyundai. The 2 American cars are a Chrysler Jeep and Chrysler Concord. No one owns a Ford or GM.
Nov 13th, 2007 (1:58 pm)One point that’s being missed…
The Volt is an EV… the long awaited sequel to the EV1, which (after the original lead acid batteries were replaced with the NiMH’s) everyone who had one loved, and had hardly any problems with.
EV’s have 70-90% fewer moving parts than a conventional car with an internal combustion engine (ICE). A big reason why big auto killed their own creations (from “Plug-in Hybrids” by Sherry Boschert, “For auto dealers, service and parts sales made up 12% of dealer revenues in 2004, and those accounted for 57% of profits…”).
The point being that an EV (even a range extended one like the Volt that still has an ICE) is much simpler, and thus likely to have far fewer problems than GM’s current and historical internal combustion vehicles.
As such, that’s why I believe lots of us who have avoided GM vehicles in the past couple decades have less fear that the Volt will end up with problems.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:05 pm)Can an old timer throw in his two cents.My first car was a 1935 Ford 3 window, Then the following:46Ford,49Ford,53Ford,56Ford
57Chev,58Chev,59Chev,61Cad,63Pont.64ChevPU, 68ChevPU,72FordPU,75FordPU,89Buick,04Merc. Now own 06Cad SRX and last but not least my new 07 Ford Ranger.Not one of these rigs gave me any trouble and believe me, I’m a hard driver. You people that don’t like American iron need to find you another site to air your complaints.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:09 pm)#29 (Tom), regarding airing complaints…
I think you need to re-visit the title of this thread.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:16 pm)This isn’t quite germaine to the present discussion, but are the Volts’ back doors suicide seat style like the Opel Flextreme? I just paged through more than 900 fotos of the Volt (or more accurately, looked at 30 iterations of about 30 different pictures) and not one of them show the back doors open. The door line is kind of funky which makes me wonder if the backdoors are another thing the Chevy will probably change before production, much like the funky front end and the 22″ tires.
Literally can’t wait for this car to be built!
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:18 pm)[quote comment="14537"]So many anti-GM people on this site, yet, they’re willing to wait three more years eagerly anticipating a car that doesn’t even exist yet and be the first in line to buy one. How ironic. You people are setting yourselves up for failure yet again, because when you find just ONE little thing wrong with the car you’ll say the same thing all over again. “I bought a Chevy Volt and it was horrible cuz the door rattled!” Do us all a favor and stick to foreign cars, and let us but American. You prefer it that way anyway, right?[/quote]
That is a pretty bold statement – It seems that many of the complaints have to do with major malfunctions. As listed in my previous post all my GM problems redered the vehicles unuseable without repairs. Chevy was never willing to help out even if problems began just after the warranty ended. Many people are not that picky that they would rule out a brand due to a rattle. My firebird was a great car, never really let me down, and that thing had a ton of rattles, had to tighten everything up once a month. The only reason I went with a forign car is the same thing that drove millions to go with forign cars, they tend to be more reliable. Now things do change and from what I hear GM’s quality has been improving. And at the same time Toyotas quality has dropped a bit.
Anyway the point is dont go tell someone to just shut up and buy a forign car if they are willing to give domestic another shot. They are putting the past poor quality behind them and ginving GM another chance – it is up to GM to retain these customers, becasue by the time their volt is on its last leg every company will have a serial hybrid or some better technology.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:19 pm)Jeff at #30
Well said.
Now for the rest of you complaining about my comments, let me just say this. We are all on the same side. I AM BUYING A VOLT. I have come full circle and will purchase a GM car in the next 3 years (hopefully no more). I had a bad experience with GM and I moving on from that. But I can fully understand the 60% and where they are coming from. I’ve changed my thinking, and maybe some of them can too. Time and reliability will tell.
Tom #28. 1935 Ford 3 window coupe. That sir, was a beautiful car. I would love to drive one of those.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:20 pm)Jeff at #30
Well said.
Now for the rest of you complaining about my comments, let me just say this. We are all on the same side. I AM BUYING A VOLT. I have come full circle and will purchase a GM car in the next 3 years (hopefully no more). I had a bad experience with GM and I moving on from that. But I can fully understand the 60% and where they are coming from. I’ve changed my thinking, and maybe some of them can too. Time and reliability will tell.
Tom #29. 1935 Ford 3 window coupe. That sir, was a beautiful car. I would love to drive one of those.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:28 pm)Rashiid #27
Good point. When the cost is more i.e. $11K or $30K the risk is higher. Thinking about it coldly, when risk is higher greater weight will be given to any negative experience — conservative thinking if you like.
When the cost is relatively low, e.g. $500, the risk (cost x probability of failure) is also lower, and thus a gamble is easier to take.
So in this case, because the cost is higher ($30K), GM may have a problem because of perceptions (right or wrong) about prior quality.
Logically then, the Volt will be more likely to appeal to those that are more able to take a risk with $30K. Of course there are many other factors, so this effect may be marginal. But GM marketing may need to address this more with the Volt.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:31 pm)Reputations are earned. Attempting to bully critics into silence accomplishes nothing.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:34 pm)#31 – Ziv
I’ve looked at this too. The rear door(s) look tiny, like child sized only. There is a Saturn on the market with similar looking small door(s) on the rear. I’m tall and would have trouble getting in/out of the rear of that Saturn. I hope that this changes.
I’ve been keeping my eyes out for Chevy Colbolts and they are about the minimum size car that I would be happy to buy. I would much prefer something at least the size of a Malibu, but I’ll buy what is available.
Nov 13th, 2007 (2:58 pm)The main reason I prefer Honda and Toyota over American brands is reliability. Look at any April issue of Consumer Reports. The Honda and Toyota are generally all red while American cars usually have several black marks against them.
And like Tom says in comment #3, I’ve heard too many times how American reliability has been fixed now. When the April issue of Consumer Reports says it’s been fixed, I’ll believe it. Until then, I’ll keep saying that American cars suffer from poor reliability.
However, as Lyle points out, some Toyota models are beginning to show below average reliability, and Ford’s reliability is improving (see CR December 2007 article).
The bottom line is that I want an EV with a range extender so bad, I’ll take the first brand that offers one.
Nov 13th, 2007 (3:06 pm)Mr. Rasiid.
Thank you. That V-8 flat head was a real horse. It sure took a lot of abuse and kept on runnig, kind of like the energizer bunny. Going . . & Going.
Nov 13th, 2007 (3:09 pm)I have to say I am a recent SUV switcher. I am tired of sinking a bill to fill up my tank, so I bought a flex fuel Chevy Impala. I have nothing but compliments for this car for several reasons. I am 6′ 4″ and have plenty of room just like my truck I had before. The gas mileage is great on corn fuel. 25% less efficiency does not show up, more like 15% which is comparable to E-85 in my area.
For the GM cars in the 1990′s, to say they were bad is not accurate. I still use my 1994 Full Size Blazer for hunting and pulling. The gas mileage is not great, but for over 200,000 this truck has never once left me stranded, unlike the Toyotas I see during a typical Michigan winter. Oh ya, my Blazer had a plow on it for ten years.
If you want a vehicle to look nice and make it look like it does work, buy Japanese brands. If you want work, by US, that’s what the engineers designed them for. I know because I am an engineer and don’t work for any of the top three.
Nov 13th, 2007 (3:23 pm)It cant be that bad!
Out where I live the Fords,Chevs, Pontiacs are lovingly restored,fabulously well painted.
They make great mobile living rooms for the boys on saturday night.
You cant fit eight boys into a Toyota Corolla!
Nov 13th, 2007 (3:53 pm)Sorry if you’ve heard this one before guys, but here goes:
Our family has 4 Chevrolet vehicles. The are very reliable and do the jobs we need done just fine.
My wife’s 95 Impala SS has about 115k miles, runs great, and has never had any major problems. One water pump, if memory serves. It will last until the Volt appears. We would like to get better mileage, but here is nothing in the Chevy lineup right now which is enough better to motivate us to dump this good, and still head turning, car.
My 2000 S-10 has 190k miles. We put in a clutch at 180K. That’s it. It is a 4 cyl, 5 speed stripper. It gets a consistent 25 mpg in mixed city/highway driving. What more could you want?
Our other 2 trucks are a 2004 3500 dually and a 2006 1500 with a stake body. We use them only for towing and business gophering. We replaced our 1985 Suburban, with 400k hard miles, with the 3500 when we started towing a 2 car trailer. We replaced our 1977 C-10 with the 1500. Both of these trucks are so much better and more comfortable than the ones they replaced that it is like a different reality.
Any small warranty issues (very few) and/or recalls on these vehicles have been handled with total courtesy and efficiency by the dealers involved.
All this stuff about unreliability seems like urban legend to me. Alas, perception is reality in the retail world. If I had the advertising and PR budget of GM, I bet I could fix it. If not, I would go into another line of work.
How about a campaign like the one Toyota did a few years ago where they did little profiles of “high mileage” truck owners. We used to laugh at that as our Suburban turned over 400k.
I don’t work for GM, or own any stock. I am not a cheerleader for GM, except for trying to help all of you to get the Volt built. I think that I was among those called “arrogant bloggers” by Mr. Lutz on the Fastlane blog for some of the highly critical comments I posted.
Still, fair is fair. We find the vehicles to be very reliable and functional. Too bad they didn’t get on the high mileage bandwagon a few years sooner. Maybe, with all of your help, they can still pull it out.
Nov 13th, 2007 (5:39 pm)Jeff #9:
I agree that advertising can create a market, but with fuel prices now going to reach new highs, I doubt that the ad that says “This SUV will get 18 MPG, and is best in its class” is going to hold much weight anymore. There is only so much advertising can do. In the end, a hog is still a hog.
Times are changing. Lets see if the big 3 can change with them.
#16 Voltman:
I remember taking long fun vacations in our Ford LTD station wagon and not feeling cramped. And there were six of us in that car. So maybe we need to see station wagons make a comeback!!!
As far as the reliability, there will be good cars and bad cars off the assembly line. I think it has more to do with how the company and the dealer network take care of those problems.
I have owned Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mitsubishi, and Hyundai vehicles. Have I had problems with all of them? Yes, but they were minor, and the manufacturers and dealers made them right, which made me happy.
I have to say that once I make up my mind which vehicle I want to purchase, I spend just as much time checking out the reputation of the dealership. Maybe that is why I have had pretty good luck with all my vehicles so far.
So now, as long as the Volt stays close to the concept car as it can for a production vehicle, I need to start checking out the Chevy dealers within about 30 miles of where I live…..
Nov 13th, 2007 (5:53 pm)This discussion reminds me of when I flew from New York to Chicago and the two guys sitting next to me were in a heated discussion as who had better pizza. The guy from New York swore up and down that New York pizza was the best. The guy from Chicago obviously thought Chicago pizza was better. After a while, they invited me in to referee.
At that time, I had been living on the east coast about a month, but that was long enough to ask one simple question. I asked the guy from New York if he had ever tried Chicago pizza. He admitted that he hadn’t, but he still swore up and down that New York pizza was the best. They argued over pizza for another 30 seconds, and then switched to sports teams.
But here is the point, until you have personally tried both, you can’t make a comparison. I have owned cars from Ford, Chevy, Oldsmobile, AMC, Subaru, and Honda. Honda is the best – hands down.
How many others out there have personally owned cars from GM, Honda, and/or Toyota?
Nov 13th, 2007 (6:44 pm)How apropos after my comments yesterday. Once again…
From 1975 to 2001, I have been “burned” by poor reliability with my purchases of both new and used American manufactured cars (i.e. Ford, GM, and Chrysler). Three of these new vehicles were made by divisions of GM (Chevy, Buick, and Saturn).
My last new American car was a 2000 Saturn LW2 which was such a disappointment that I vowed I would never buy an American car again! We replaced it last November with a 2007 Toyota Matrix. No unplanned trips back to the dealership for repairs which was not the case with the Saturn.
Now, I’m also the third owner of a 1996 Honda Civic DX with 182,313 miles on it (purchased at 55,371 miles). To date, it has worked flawlessly.
Do I want the Chevy Volt to succeed? Yes, but I need some real assurances from GM that I won’t be another “beta tester” consumer like I was with their Saturn.
Nov 13th, 2007 (6:54 pm)I really love this site. You guys are great.
We can have an honest debate here, but in the end, we all want the same thing. To have the Volt built. People (including me) who bad mouth GM and people who love them, are standing shoulder to shoulder on this Volt. We need for our country, for our neighbor (Canada) and for the rest of the civilized world. We need off of oil.
Now for the record, my Pontiac Sunbird was a mess after the 36,000 mile warranty was up, but before it reached 60,000 miles. The head gasket went, the A/C compressor went, and the A/C condenser went. These are not minor problems as Scott #25 has said. These were expensive things to fix and with no support with GM. I did call them at the time. They, in a very polite way, told me I was on my own. I was only 25 years old at the time, and had a lifetime of buying new cars. I have, and not one of them was American after that.
But the Volt will be mine. I just want GM to do a really good job, that’s all.
For all of us, this is a 30,000 dollar gamble on new technology. It has to work.
Nov 13th, 2007 (7:28 pm)GM deserved to be beaten to the brink of bankruptcy by foreign automakers because they cared more about making money than producing high quality cars. They earned their poor reputation.
However, GM has learned their lesson and have almost completely closed the gap. Buick and Cadillac are as reliable as Lexus (and much more reliable than German cars), and the new models (ie. Malibu), are every bit as good as foreign cars.
It will take some time to repair it’s reputation, but GM is, and has been on the right path. The Volt could be the final step in bringing GM’s reputation for quality to that of Japanese cars.
I also think GM is better at making beautiful cars than the Japanese. I find Toyota’s and Honda’s to be incredibly boring, while cars like the Solstice and Camaro are boner-worthy. That will probably never change.
With respect to personal experience with American cars, the 93 Lumina and 2000 Malibu sucked, while the 97 Escort and 2002 Cavalier were perfect. I’m willing to throw all that history out, since I believe GM cars are selling at a discount because of their poor and no longer justified reputation.
Nov 13th, 2007 (7:28 pm)It is clear after reading all the messages in this thread, Rashiid Amul has said it best — perception is very important. GM has to to get this one right!
Can’t wait to get my hands on a Volt!
Nov 13th, 2007 (8:53 pm)Sirs,
I am glad to see GM trying to rectify their mistakes. I am really excited to see the volt come on the market. If GM can set the lead I will be a devoted fan. I am as GREEN as it gets and it is just like politics “first one past the post wins” I am the younger demographic and we want to see this car happen. I have to disagree with the leasing of the batteries. That is like selling a car with no engine. Let us finally get off the grid. It is the wave of the future. People are becoming more inventive and if you do not help get want they want then we will make it for ourselves then GM will really lose. Thank You
Nov 13th, 2007 (9:06 pm)FYI
Wired article states Lyle Dennis has his questions and is dining with Lutz tonight.
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/11/gm-execs-field-.html
Nov 13th, 2007 (9:31 pm)Holy crap… go Lyle! Enjoy that dinner out with Bob and co. You deserve it!
Nov 13th, 2007 (10:41 pm)Kudos to Guy Incognito …his post was quoted in the blog.wired link under #50.
Won’t it be a wonderful thing in 3 years when we are all driving a Volt!!
Nov 13th, 2007 (11:36 pm)My family as well owned nothing but American. Plymouth Horizon, absolute crap: engine began smoking at 80K, rebuilt, dead at 88K. Replaced with a 94 Corolla, now 13 years old, 172K, and been to the shop only three times, still runs great. Expect it to last until 250-300K easily.
Grandpa had a Ford Taurus, lasted 103K before he replaced it. In just 7 years 12 visits to the repair man.
Mom made the mistake of buying a 96 Pontiac Transport minivan, 17 visits to the mechanic and counting, only 117K miles and on its last legs.
Grandma traded in an oldmobile that was crap for a 97 Civic, never been to the shop once.
Enough anecdotes, lets talk stats.
2007 Consumer Reports, 1.3 million survey results: gospel of reliability.
Results:
GM: 51% of models below average reliability
Ford: improving, but still way below Toyota or Honda.
Toyota: yes some models have slipped, like V6 Camry, but V4 camry is rock solid, and Toyota is still #4 in reliability.
Honda: #1, Acura #2, Subaru # 3, Toyota #4
If buying a car today I would have to go with Honda, for their cars are better all around.
Civic vs Corolla, Civic wins, (Consumer report’s #1 small car rec)
Fit vs Yaris: Car and Driver had 7 year old Fit #1 against 7 contenders, including Yaris, Versa, Hyndais, Kia, Chevy Aveao, ect. Fit won by a long shot, and next year is brand new!
Accord vs Camry: Harder choice,
Prius: Vs Civic Hybrid: Priu wins hands down
Overall its a real battle of the titans between Toyota, (3rd gen Prius coming) vs Honda, (Diesel Accord + small car hybrid +CRZ)
Today, based on Consumer Reports, and personall experience, I would only consider Honda or Toyota.
BUT, since the volt is an reEV, it has less moving parts and so might be extremly reliable.
Either way, the volt is the only GM car I will ever consider, so they best not screw it up.
IF GM perfects the EV then they win the race to the end of automotive history.
They can’t compete with ICEs, the Japanese have mastered that art.
But EVs? Thats up in the air.
Consumer Reports asked “would you buy or lease your current car again.”
#1 for 4 years straight is the Prius at 92%.
Civic and Corolla come in mid to low 80%s.
Lowest car in the survey was Chevy Aveo, 34%. Chevy Cobalt was in 40%’s.
Today GM is the maker of absolute crap.
Their styling is dull, their interiors cheap, and relaibility improving? 51% of GM models BELOW AVERAGE reliability!
BUT EVS like the Volt and others could change all that.
GM would become the pheonix, consumed by the flames of its own stupidity only to be reborn as the greatest auto maker the world has or will ever know.
For GM the question is simple, “Do you want to survive as a company in the age of peak oil?”
If so, build the volt and build it right.
Take reliability to a whole new level, take perfect EVs and shove it down Toyota’s and Honda’s throats, or lose me and 60%(and growing) of American car buyers forever.
Live or die, GM, make your choice.
Nov 14th, 2007 (12:29 am)Lyle, that’s pretty amazing to have dinner with Bob Lutz. It makes me skeptical that they’re trying to corrupt your pristine journalistic integrity, but I’ll admit I’m jel.
At the very least, I think they are committed to developing the Volt with complete transparency.
Still, it makes me wonder why they are applying so much PR capital at this point in the game. Here it is 2007, and they supposedly won’t release the Volt until late 2010. I would fear Volt hype burnout if I were GM. Is it possible that estimated date is extremely conservative, and they may smash the deadline?
Nov 14th, 2007 (1:16 am)My only interest right now is a car that can take me to work and back without gas. My mentality is first come, first serve. Whether its GM or Toyota, I’m taking the first electric available to me. I must say that GM is ahead by having 40 miles on a charge, unlike Toyota’s laughable 8 …
Nov 14th, 2007 (5:47 am)I once had a Volt
Or should I say it once had me
It showed me its E-Flex
Isn’t it fine american design?
Nov 14th, 2007 (8:09 am)Looks like a good start. Just depends on the price tag in 2010.
Nov 14th, 2007 (8:55 am)“despite now making great cars”
Mercedes builds great cars, as well as Land Rover used to and Rolls Roys and Ferrari, etc. Still most americans don’t consider buying those.
They ought to be building “desirable cars” not just in terms of “great” – great looking, great performance, great comfort, etc.; but also in terms of “sensible/practical” – sensible fuel economy, practical size/performance, sensible price, etc.
For instance, GM/Ford/C cars tend to have a lot of interior features and are very comfortable. Honda are far more spartan and simpler. Yet my friend’s Focus developed electrical problems after only 5 years just as he was trying to sell it. My Hondas just keep going (besudes minor issues like one speaker is out) BECASE they are simpler and have less things to break down.
Also GM is still mostly ignorant of their customers wanting better fuel economy. “Desirable” car gets at least 30 mpg, while GM’s “great” cars struggle to achieve 25 mpg. What good are their “great” cars when you end up not being able to fill it with gasoline? Read the articles about shortages in China. We are not too far behind.
Certainly they improved quality and are no longer very far behind Toyota and Honda. Credit is due there, good stuff
The trouble is they still insist on telling their customers what they ought to driver as opposed listening to us what GM ought to build. That is why Toyota is leading with Prius and GM is trying to catch up with Volt. It should have been the other way around. GM with EV-1 should have been way ahead of Toyota. We certainly seem to have better batteries here than in Japan. GM could have had best selling electric cars and would be able to pay above average salaries and benefits without breaking a sweat. But no, they had to gut EV-1 because SUVs are soooo much better, right? Wrong!
Nov 14th, 2007 (10:18 am)Back to Volt, I would prefer GM puts more effort into making a reliable/robust design and less effort into nice-to-have-not-essential features. I don’t care for power windows, power steering, etc. whereas I do care for having no more than a single major repair per decade.
Nov 14th, 2007 (12:51 pm)I drive a Camaro super sport, never had a more reliable car. My brother had a ’99 and put 100,000 miles on it without any problems. I had a ’98 Z28 which never had a problem and my ’02 super sport is running perfectly. We also drive with the gas to the floor. I do admit that the interior has some plastic but who cars, the car is already heavy.
I’m planning on selling the super sport camaro and buying a volt. Although I was going to buy a honda before I found out about the volt. Now I decided to wait as long as necessary to buy a volt. If they sell out in 2010 and 2011 before I can get one, I’ll still wait. I’m never going to buy a regular ICE car again. Only PHEV(EVRXs) like the volt.
Nov 14th, 2007 (3:34 pm)q, #59:
I agree:
1. “Keep it simple, stupid.”
2. “Simplicate and add lightness.”
3. “What ain’t there don’t give you no trouble.”
I said that I would rather have a solar panel on the roof than a “glass” panel or a sunroof. But I can well do without the solar panel as well. Keep it as simple as possible and get it to the market ASAP!
Nov 14th, 2007 (3:47 pm)No one has convinced me that the GM culture has changed. They are still the greedy, quality be dammed corporation they have always been. When they get their warranty up to par with the imports, I will consider going back. As the saying goes, “Once your fault, twice my fault.