In the battle to be the world’s number one automaker, at times things get a little ugly. We have heard alot about how Toyota thinks the Prius’ conservative parallel design is superior to E-Flex, and how they conservatively believe lithium-ion isn’t ready for cars yet (although they have that little Vitz secret), or that maybe something better than lithium-ion batteries is need to power electric cars (previous post).
Toyota is predicted to overtake GM in total vehicle sales for year 2007 for the first time in history. Their name has also become synonymous with “green car” due to the success of the Prius.
With GM’s very public and transparent plans and process to bring the Volt to production, Toyota is feeling threatened. Furthermore, groups of environmentalists are lobbying against Toyota’s green cred, because for one thing they oppose CAFE limits and for another, build big gas guzzling Tundras. In fact, a site about this has been created by these environmental groups: truthabouttoyota.com
Now in an article in the Economist, Toyota is reported as betting that the Volt will “blow up in GM’s face”, and that their plan to develop their own in-house batteries is superior to GM’s battery outsourcing strategy.
These are bold sentiments and indeed the stakes are getting quite high for both sides. If Toyota is right GM will be in big trouble, if they are wrong, the General’s Volt will leap ahead and leave the Prius in the dust.
Source (The Economist)
This entry was posted on Friday, November 9th, 2007 at 8:02 am and is filed under Competitors, Public Opinion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Nov 9th, 2007 (8:37 am)Toyota is correct in that somebody is losing face.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(social_custom)
(hint… it’s not GM.)
Nov 9th, 2007 (8:45 am)That’s OK,
They attacked us 60 some years ago and we came back to show them how determined America can be. There is no reason why we can’t again prove the determination of this Country. We don’t need to be sending $13 + billion dollars to Japan each year by buying Toyota’s
God Bless America & GM, GO VOLT !!!!
Nov 9th, 2007 (9:29 am)Talk is cheap. Toyota still has an extensive plug-in Prius research project, and lithium-ion Vitz (both of which is not new news). What does GM have?
Nov 9th, 2007 (9:38 am)Toyota may have PHEVs in the pipeline, but EVRXs like the Volt are nowhere in sight, so what else can they do but try and bash GM?
Nov 9th, 2007 (9:45 am)Special K! I agree. Where can I go to buy a plug-in? Looks like Toyota today is the winner. Too bad.
Nov 9th, 2007 (9:58 am)The important thing is here: Who will be the first in bringing a plug-in to the market??? Be it parallel or serial…..they are the winner….
Nov 9th, 2007 (10:03 am)rx_tx said: “The important thing is here: Who will be the first in bringing a plug-in to the market??? Be it parallel or serial…..they are the winner….”
Sorry, but I disagree. The first to bring a plug-in to the market, parallel or serial, is nothing but that; the 1st to market. The winner will be determined by the public and sales!
Nov 9th, 2007 (10:31 am)Boy we spend as lot of time talking about Toyota …
1) To be fair, the article doesn’t quote quote Toyota as dissing GM .. they describe them as being politely skeptical and say that while Toyota doesn’t say so, they seem to “think that …” blah blah blah.
2) The issue remains whether the complexity and cost of a parallel full hybrid system is worth it when battery stored grid derived power drives you most of the time. See http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/11/rand-study-find.html#more for an analysis that claims that full hybrid technology is not even as economical as advanced diesels over vehicle lifetimes. Dropping in enough batteries to give 40 mi range on top of that technology is way expensive for little extra benefit over being a RxEV.
3) Toyota is not yet number one but they have already fallen to the conservatism that number ones often succumb to. Stick with what is currently succeeding even if they are already “moving the cheese.” GM may not yet be number two, but like that old Avis commercial they are acting like it. Trying harder, taking some risks. The only thing that can kill the Volt’s success is a huge drop in oil prices or a total miff of marketing. I doubt either will occur.
Nov 9th, 2007 (10:38 am)“Although they don’t quite say so, Toyota’s people think that the Volt is more than likely to blow up in GM’s face, quite literally.” This is the actual quote from the referenced article. Toyota did not say it, but the writer posted what was in their minds, apparently an accomplished mindreader.
The A123 32 series cell is not going to blow up. It offers about twice the specific energy (120 Wh/kg) of Toyota’s outdated battery.
I expect the A123 cell based battery prototype testing to reveal the battery can be pushed to greater usage, with an adjusted charge cycle between 90% and 15% to provide about 12 KWH of range, close to 40 miles. This will blow Toyota off the road and out of the lead as a green car maker!
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:16 am)Just words.
Eventually, there will be a RxEV (in series) Prius/Corolla/Camry/Civic/Accord…
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:17 am)Taking anything Toyota says these days seriously is pretty much a waste of time. Tomorrow we can be sure they’ll make a statement 180 degrees the other direction.
If Toyota thinks they will be winners by outdoing the VOLT, they are living in a dream world. The Chinese BYD plug-in will eat Toyota’s lunch rather comprehensively. Toyota will find that talking is no substitute for performance, and lately Toyota has been acting like the company in last place, not first place. The company statements are just plain bizarre and indicate a complete lack of plans for the electrified future.
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:20 am)If Toyota/Honda manage to get hybrids down to a sub $2K premium (which it sounds like they will by 2010) then the $30K Volt will have a very tough time getting traction against a $20K-22K Hybrid Accord/Camry and a sub $20K Prius.
I suspect that Honda and Toyota will be vindicated in their statements about the Volt. (I mean the official ones.)
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:22 am)Well I guess that all we can do is to keep cheerleading and hope for the best. Make no mistake, if GM goes down, it will be a disaster for all of us.
As I walk my dog around the neighborhood in the morning and gaze upon all of the Japanese cars, I really want to weep. What a self-destructive nation we have come to be.
My 27 year old son holds a Masters in City and Regional Planning. We had dinner with him last night and he flatly said, not for the first time, “My next car will be electric.” I see some hope in that.
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:41 am)GM-Volt, “bring it on”. All this whine about 2 or 4 seats is useless. Look at the people in the next car when you are jammed up in traffic. Most are single occupant drivers talking on their cell phones. This car will cut our gas usage in half of the 2 cars we will have in our driveways. Drive a Volt to work and a Corvette or Hummer for play.
Look at all the mid-life crisis cars running around, the Sky, Soltice, Miata’s,Z-3/4′s, and Corvette’s. The Volt is an answer to our oil problems and the car will evolve–light haul trucks??
GM should stop the foot dragging and get a dual system on the road, I can wait for the hydrogen retrofit. The history on the EV-1 in California is very positive. This long wait smells of collusion with the oil companys.
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:42 am)noel park,
Amen, I could not agree with you more.With the attitude of many buyers we are certainly on a self destructing course.
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:49 am)Where can I get one of those Star Trek chairs ?
One beep – yes, two beeps – no.
Nov 9th, 2007 (12:24 pm)Dust `em GM…
Nov 9th, 2007 (12:35 pm)Toyota’s body design may be more appealing to European and Japanese markets, but less likely US market.
I think that the US car market prefers either big, or sporty. The Toyota in the picture looks much more like a number of European cars that even in Europe are considered to be butt ugly, but sell due to cost and fuel savings, and practical space/size issues. I have’t seen anyway near that number of small ugly cars on the US roads.
No only have GM done something revolutionary with the Volt’s drive train, it looks good too.
Nov 9th, 2007 (1:23 pm)I think that the whole PHEV/RxEV debate can really be reduced to two words: petroleum dependency. When it comes to driving a PHEV, you have to use gasoline or diesel, or CNG, because there is simply not enough biofuels to go around. On top of that, I don’t even see Toyota touting biofuels anyway. And to top it off, Japan is more dependent on foreign oil than we are. Personally I don’t get it. I’d gladly pay $30K for a Volt, a little more even, and that’s without having (though I it makes me sad to think about it) any V2G function. Buffering against the, not even necessarily high, but unknown future costs of gasoline and other fuels, with clean, cheap electricity justifies the expense. Moreover, the battery will retain significant value at “end of life”, because it is both reusable and recyclable, and the technology of an RxEV is actually simpler.
Seriously, what am I missing? Is oil still cheap when paid in yen, or is Toyota just playing dumb about all this. GM said the same thing would happen to the Prius a couple of years ago too, remember? And we all have seen what happened there.
Nov 9th, 2007 (1:25 pm)Oh, and a reminder: Toyota is not the only company working on a PHEV. The Saturn VUE 2-mode hybrid plug-in is supposed to come out in 2009.
Nov 9th, 2007 (4:59 pm)The Volt will only blow up in GM’s face if they use Sony batteries…which they arn’t.
Nov 9th, 2007 (8:30 pm)Why are Toyota lovers posting on this site? This is the GM-Volt site. Go post on a plug-in Toyota site …if you can find one.
Nov 9th, 2007 (9:51 pm)I was at the Toyota dealer last week and remain impressed with the Prius. It is whetting my appetite for the Volt, which I will buy.
Nov 9th, 2007 (10:54 pm)ok, here’s the thing, i’m betting that most of you gm, american hating trolls, are actually working for toyota.
tom m. you’re right on the money…
jimmy, you’re correct what are the toyota trolls doing on this site…
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:02 pm)Jimmy, you really want a discussion of “Yeah, I think that too!”? Boring!
Please post all ye skeptics and Toyota enthusiasts! Lay on all the critiques you can muster up. The fun is in the debate.
The reality is that Toyota currently holds the gas efficiency crown. They are the one to beat. GM is gunning for that crown and looks to have a winning hand ONLY because Toyota is entrenching in with a great technology that is more complex than needed once batteries are good enough and cheap enough to get 40 miles plus on a charge in an attractive and performing car that is under $30K. The more they keep saying that their parallel system is better the harder it will be for them to change course. And the better for GM. GM will get a lead in the battle but Toyota will realize it eventually. And the technology is not too complex, they’ll catch up quickly when they do (even if they need to buy batteries from other suppliers to do so).
Nov 9th, 2007 (11:13 pm)http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/09/AR2007110902081.html
[quote]
Toyota eyes the plug-in Prius
By Bernie Woodall
Reuters
Friday, November 9, 2007; 7:36 PM
TORRANCE, California (Reuters) – Toyota Motor Corp on Friday detailed plans to study U.S. consumer demand for a version of its hot-selling Prius hybrid that could be recharged at a standard outlet and run on electric power only.
A senior Toyota executive declined to say when a plug-in Prius would be launched or whether it could beat rival General Motors Corp to market with a technology seen as capable of slashing fuel consumption and greenhouse gas emissions.
[/quote]
Nov 10th, 2007 (12:14 am)The US is currently running an 800 billion trade deficit each year. Other countries are loaning the money back (China and Japan in particular) to us to fund the deficit. They have to loan it back so their currencies do not appreciate. A portion of the deficit is being sent to Japan for their autos. About 300 billion of the deficit is for oil. If we keep up the current level of trade deficits, we will become a third world country in the not to distant future.
One of the nice thing about the Volt is it reduces the trade deficit for two reasons. It will be made in the US and it will reduce the amount of oil consumption.
I have been pro US products ever since I took Economics 101 and want to see our country continue to prosper.
Nov 10th, 2007 (4:48 am)don…thanks for proving my point, i love trolls as much as the next guy, but in fairytale land. i’m still fairly certain that most of the trolls are working for the same country who thought bombing pearl harbor was a good idea.
btw, there is a quote from these same people, sorry don’t have the reference, but you can maybe google it.
“we may have lost the war, but we’ll kill them in economics”.
posting on here by toyota trolls would certainly be easy enough.
Nov 10th, 2007 (5:44 am)Guys and Gals don’t worry the declining US dollar is going to put a lot of pressure on the deficit. The low USD is going to shift the USA from a consumer to a producer. Also the price of any product from toyota is going to go up here, while GM product prices go down in other countries. I’m going to own a volt, period. Than after we have a volt I’m going to get an all electric car.
GM should supply the volt with several options eventually.
1. Electric car only with 60 miles range
2. Electric car with range extension, 20 miles all electric
3. Same as 2 but with 40 miles all electric
The range extender choices should be
1. EFlex
2. Hydrogen combustion
3. Diesel/Biodiesel
4. H Cell
But I agree that the first car should be the PHEV with 40 miles all electric and EFlex engine. They can add more options later.
The reason I support hydrogen is that there are some states in the USA with huge wind power potential such as the Dakotas and Texas, while others have either very high population densities (northeast) or poor wind potential (southeast). The states that produce extra power can convert it into hydrogen and ship it for vehicles in states that have problems producing enough power and use the hydrogen as a range extender for PHEVs.
Nov 10th, 2007 (12:02 pm)You might want to check the facts on hydrogen. You may be right about that distribution, but I don’t think so. Hydrogen is very difficult to ship in quantity. And E-flex is the electric drive powertrain, flex-fuel is the gasoline or E85 engine.
Nov 10th, 2007 (8:34 pm)Does anyone else think the guy in the photo looks like Professor X in that funky chair?
Nov 10th, 2007 (11:30 pm)Plug in Prius blurb:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/toyota_plugin_dc
Nov 14th, 2007 (8:35 am)At first Toyota was propagating the serial hybrids as being a great idea. But,after they found themselves behind in battery technology,it became a bad idea. The Japanese are known to be polite to you and then turn around and stick it to you in the back. If you want to know more of how they got where they are today, click on this link.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
Nov 21st, 2007 (10:09 am)[...] Toyota’s People Think the Volt Will Blow up in GM’s Face [...]