I am skeptical about the stake holders getting their act together in time for first generation of the Volt. Essentially agreeing on funding, pricing schemes and communication standards. My utility is just too slow moving (not even got time of use metering yet).

At least GM could provide a backup generator capability option. PLEASE PLEASE GM if you are listening offer a 120/240v backup generator option.

Given that California peak domestic electric charge is over $0.50 per KWh. If utility paid me that for 2KWh, on 100 days a year. There’s $100 per year.

I see the biggest problem as being able to plugin during peak periods (car park at work). I doubt my employer wouldn be interested in installing sockets in the car park unless forced to.

Seeing that the Volt is still not fully developed, V2G integration could be installed into the first generation Volt, and it is not unconceivable that the funding needed to get that done could be acquired by GM and the other automakers from the Federal and State governments here in the US, at the cost of taxpayers (who will paying towards a better energy future) and utilities (who will be beneficiaries of this technology). We consumers will ultimately be the prime beneficiaries of this technology which will permanently change how the grid works (shifting from fossil fuels and nuclear energy towards clean energy resources) and economics of driving (the simple depreciating liability that cars now exist as will change to a form of working capital). I’m pushing this technology because I believe that now, and not well after final designs on the Volt have been announced, is the time that this can be integrated both into the product and concept of the Volt and other E-flex, as well as plug-in 2-mode hybrid, GM vehicles.

This is clearly a loser if we are required to pay for all the technology, hardware, and software ourselves, and we are not compensated for its use. But if the utilities pay for the technology (not the actual vehicle, but the V2G upgrades) as well as our services (in the same way that ISOs are already paid) then that will make the Volt a winning product for everyone because more people will be able to afford it, and it will generate revenue, rather than just consuming energy and depreciating.

Maybe I’m just dreaming here, but these ideas are not my own, and the scholars who did the research and introduced the concept excited me. And the fact that Austin Energy, right up the road from me, is leading the way makes me hope it can become a reality. Plus I like the idea of having a backup generator that will not be useless when the lights are still on.

mykallb #28 — Mega dittos!

Fortunately, I don’t think they’ve got a chance. This is a VERY good example of unnecessary and over regulation if I ever saw one.

M.

Free electricity for plug-in in return for you making it available for at least X hours in peak time, and they can use Y KWh from the battery. There are plenty of ways to market it in a simple form.

There’s even a marketing bonus for GM — run it for free!

However, very much doubt that the Volt will not offer V2G, grid tie, or standby capability. I also very much doubt that it will even be an upgrade option on the first generation. But I can hope!

The best that I hope for is an option of 120/240v generator capability from an inverter, whether the motor inverter or an additional one is used. The wave form of the inverter is likely to be at least comparable with a traditional gas generator. Cummins Onan make domestic portable generators that use inverters.

V2G will be I guess several years further down the line.

I thought that 3 phase motors did prefer at least an approximated sine wave. I’ve got a variable frequency inverter for a 3 phase motor in my basement, and it is wired to a 240v 3 phase motor. The inverter (only 1.5KW cost $900). The output is not a great sine wave, it has plenty of harmonics on it, but it did not not look like pulsed DC (a square wave) either. I’ve looked at it using an oscilloscope. Usually you want to avoid harmonics and a square wave (pulsed DC) has lots of them. But some equipment tolerates it better than others.

Yes grid tie inverters are expensive, xantrex.com or sma-america.com. The output from the grid tie inverter is perfectly clean.

I think that I have probably failed to account for the closer tolerances that a grid tie inverter must have (needed for V2G) , bearing in mind the less than perfect wave form of my 3 phase motor controller, when compared with my grid tie inverters. This does add to the cost.

My grid tie inverters at 3.8KW are around $2000, compared with 3 phase motor inverter rated at 2.2KW costing $900.

So pro rating these two per KW, the grid tie is about a third more expensive.

Whether the motor inverter could in theory for a few hundred dollars be grid tied (as V2G requires) I suspect depends on whether the motor will use a nice sine wave, or a square wave (pulsed DC), or somewhere in between.

As I said I think this is academic for the first generation Volt. But if Lyle, is able to find out if there is even a possibility of a cost option 120/240 generator etc. that would be great.

Let’s start by looking at what V2G is trying to do:

1) Charge your car when electricity usage is not at peak levels.

2) Allow your car battrey to be used by the utility to help supply peak demands.

Charging off-peak is pretty simple. Use a timer. Costs $10. Timer starts at 11pm and stops at 6am. Easy. In reality, how much better would V2G work? Many utilities already offer night-time discounts.

As for allowing your car battery to supply peak demands of the utility, I don’t think this will work – for 2 reasons:

a) It would tend to wear out the battery.

b) I don’t believe the car is capable of feeding current back through the same plug that charges it. In other words, the plug-in charging port works in 1 direction only – from the grid to the car.

Some here have suggested that the inverter that drives the AC induction electric motor could be used to feed current in the reverse direction. This “inverter” is really just a motor controller. It does not produce a sinusoidal ouput. Rather, it applies DC pulses to the 3 stator coils at precise intervals. This is actually fairly similar to the DC brushless motor controller, except that the DC brushless has magnets instead of coils on the rotor, so the algorithms to control the DC pulses are quite different. See here for details:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45

Also, the AC induction motor controller has no provision to sync up with the 60hz on the grid. Grid-Tie inverters are not trivial. See example here:
http://www.affordable-solar.com/xantrex-gt-28-inverter.grid.intertie.htm

So everything I’ve managed to learn about the design of this car says that the plug-in charging port can’t be used to supply power back to the grid.

Lyle – could you please talk to GM and answer this question definitively: Does the Volt have the capability to supply current back to the grid through the plug-in charging port? Thanks.

Today, the average web user probably doesn’t know what html is or SQL but they still can use the web. I think if the marketing folk can explain this simply enough so that the average person can understand the benefits, it could work.

If a wind farm generates more electricity than is needed at a certain time, it could be stored in the batteries of electric vehicles and then maybe, just maybe, not as much coal may need to burned.

2) It does not need to cost you any battery cycles. See my post 10, and Steve B’s post 9 (item 4). If my typical cycle depth changes slightly it won’t hardly make a difference because Volt will not let depth go below 30% charge.

3) It is crazy for utilities to outlay huge capital cost for batteries that they under utilize. It is a waste of money and environmental resources, and would only increase the price of batteries. Bad for all. But it does make sense for them to ocassionally buy spare capacity from local generators (your car) especially in cases where the bottle neck is actually the distribution network not the lack of available energy.

Imagine if they only took 4KWh per week from you. But were prepared to pay you $1 for these emergency 4Wh. They save because to have batteries available to them for 24×7x365 but only used for 1 hour a week is too wasteful. You save, because what they pay more than offsets the ware and tare on the battery (and you purchased each KWh at 5 cents off peak).