Toyota President Claims “we must go beyond lithium-ion” to Develop Plug-in Hybrids
Toyota 1/x 925 lb. concept
Toyota has created a few experimental plug-in hybrid Priuses, that can go 7 miles all-electric and achieve a top speed of 60 mph, using extra NiMh batteries in the trunk. The Times reporter got to drive one in Tokyo. Toyota has also tried to argue that the parallel hybrid design is superior to the Volt’s series design.
The report notes that Toyota realized people didn’t like the specialized charging needs of the Toyota Rav4 EV, and that plain old 3-prong 110 v charging was needed.
Toyota has recently shown another way of prolonging all-electric range was to build a lightweight vehicle (the Toyota 1/x concept) weighing in at 925 pounds (don’t get hit by an Escalade).
In one of the articles most interesting comments, Toyota president Katsuaki Watanabe was quoted as saying “Some of our engineers think we must go beyond lithium-ion.”
It is rather odd that a company who can’t even make it to the next technological level, would call that level suboptimal. Toyota never ceases to create the most sensational excuses, in this war of green with GM.
Source (New York Times)
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- The Race is on: Toyota Now Admits it is Ramping up Lithium-ion Battery Production
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50 Responses to “Toyota President Claims “we must go beyond lithium-ion” to Develop Plug-in Hybrids”
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November 4th, 2007 at 12:20 am
I have to agree with you, Lyle. I think in a few years, Toyota is gonna be wiping egg off of their faces. (Hopefully sooner than that.)
November 4th, 2007 at 12:39 am
Hmmm,
That is a sweeping statement by Toyota,
I wonder if they would be more specific and say what the “beyond Lithium ion” technology is in their opinion.
Nuclear fusion?
Just joking..
November 4th, 2007 at 2:31 am
I’ve got to believe that since they’ve stated that “parallel hybrid” is a “superior” technology that they’re thinking along the lines of…tri-parallel. Yup…gasoline, electric and good ‘ol Fred Flinstone ;).
M.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:09 am
For GM’s sake I hope they don’t have something superior in the works, like an affordable ultra-cap.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:36 am
You are on to a winner there mykallb, the other possibility is driver and passengers pedaling to charge the batteries.
(Bob, that works for serial technology as well….)
November 4th, 2007 at 6:32 am
Going beyond the li ion may be a fool’s
mission if there isn’t anything there. I, of course, have stopped believing anything either Toyota or Honda say. In the case of Toyota, it’s been a two month habit of following up one exec’s statement the very next day with a contradictory claim. I seriously doubt whether Toyota (or Honda) has any solid plans for plug-ins. They had better be watching BYD more than GM if they plan on occupying their normally dominent position at the lower end of the price range. They are setting themselves up to be massacred by that BYD plug-in - it is VERY attractive and VERY cost competitive.
And it will be on sale long before either of them have anything worth mentioning. They can’t match either the technology or the pricing of that car (or even the styling). What a gigantic turnaround, although that has been going on for quite some time in most other areas of manufacturing. The automotive industry seems to be Japan’s last stand. I believe the Chinese are even ahead of Japan in gas-pebble-bed nuclear reactor technology.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:13 am
Hello All
I work at a small college in Iowa and the Instructors in the Auto classes go to a state wide meeting with all of the Auto instructors.
The first meeting this year they came back with news that Toyota was leading the R&D race on the electric car.
I showed them “GM-Volt.com”
The response was “WHOOOO”
Last week they cam back with news that GM can NOT make the Volt and Toyota was still in the lead.
Back to GM-Volt.com and found the news story about Toyota slamming the Volt.
I think GM should start pushing the correct info to the general public or everyone here should start telling and showing there friends about the real truth.
Ok back and get some more coffee
November 4th, 2007 at 7:37 am
It’s already here, according to Eestor. If only Eestor’s lack of communication wasn’t so suspicious :>(
November 4th, 2007 at 9:03 am
More power to Toyota to go beyond Lithium… The winners will be the consumer and those that oppose fossil fuels in general. It’s ridiculous to think there aren’t alternatives. The only question is, who will prevail in the marketplace?
November 4th, 2007 at 9:53 am
Talk is cheap. What has Toyota got to show? A PHEV-7? GM has packs a mules for a EVRX-40. Once GM has the Volt for sale, the talking will be over, and Toyota will have to come out with a product to compete.
By the way, in the New York Times article, Toyota wonders if many people won’t bother plugging in. The problem is that they’re using a 7-mile vehicle to test this theory. With that kind of range, I may not bother as well. 40-mile range is a whole different story.
Another thing they mention is the availability of electricity in apartment parking lots. This is not a big deal. I remember similar concerns back in the 80’s with cable-TV in apartments. How can you keep one renter from stealing anothers cable-TV service? Well, they solved that with cable-TV and they can solve it for electrical outlets in parking spaces. The real point is that plug-ins can go mainstream with the existing infrastructure, and then apartments can come online shortly after.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Hi Dave G, as I was reading through the thread, I had started to formulate a response, but when I reached your piece, you had said what I had been thinking, only better.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am
“Some of our engineers think we must go beyond lithium-ion.”
I wonder what that is. At this point in time, is there something beyond lithium-ion that is at least somewhat real? ESStor?
I agree with Dave G, with only a 7 mile range, who cares about plugging it in. It is almost not worth bothering to call the car a EV of any kind.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Let’s also not forget that GM has definite plans to bring out a plug-in Saturn VUE about a year before the Volt, in about 2009. If there is a two-year lag between committing to something like that and delivering, then Toyota would need to commit very soon to not be beat on that.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Wow, the Toyota’s car can only go 7 miles on battery alone. They shouldn’t even bother if they can’t get at least 40 like the Volt can.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
You guys have been talking about EEstor, so I did some reading on it. Whoa! Just imagine an EEstor capacitor car with a range extender also. You might squeeze out 1,000 miles easily, since they claim they can get 500 miles on EEstor alone with a single charge. This could be the second generation Volt if this EEstor stuff works out. Any more thoughts, guys?
November 4th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
bruce g,
You may interested in this:
http://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html
or this:
http://www.twike.us/
among others.
If it was priced a bit less I’d get one! As it is I cycle to work some of the time. But definitely not for the masses.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Toyota is not technologically behind.
In case you’ve forgotten, they invented the Hybrid Synergy Drive years ago which is still the best hybrid drivetrain and beyond the engineering abilities of at least Nissan and Ford.
Fact: aside from the battery, the Volt is less technically advanced than any Prius. It’s just an electric car with a generator. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Volt and I hate the Prius, but I’m not going to be so rah-rah-America and rah-rah-GM to bash Toyota unnecessarily and inaccurately.
Toyota’s hybrids may be more efficient than any generator-electric car anyway when running on gas. You’d have to run a lot of numbers, but there’s something to be said for using mechanical energy directly instead of converting it to electrical and back to mechanical.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
It does seem strange to do a conversion of mechanical to electrical but Locomotives have been doing it for sixty years,(diesel electrics), serial without the battery.
Someone may be able to explain…
November 4th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
So more mechanical monkey motion makes it more technically advanced? Oh, boy. Someone educate this man, I’m too tired today.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
It depends on your definition of efficient. I will not have to use any gasoline with the Volt’s 40 mile range. The equivalent cost of electricity for me is about 25% of the cost of gas. The Volt will pollute a lot less than the parallel hybrid system even taking into consideration the use of electricity. Electricity is US made and oil is not. Lower trade deficits can equate to more US jobs, lower inflation, and lower interest rates. We send over 250 billion dollars annually out of the country to buy oil each year. We can keep these funds for ourselves. There will also be fewer mechincal parts in the Volt meaning lower maintenance. Trying to be objective, I can’t think of any advantages of the parallel hybrid system over the Volt other than it has been around longer and may cost a little bit less. The parallel hybrid system may work better for larger vehicles, but I am not sure.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Tom,
I reread your post after I posted #19 and I think I may have misunderstood your question/comment. I believe the correct comparison would be as follows. If we have two identical cars, one has a parallel hybrid system and one has the e-flex system where the gas engine only charges the battery. If both cars have the same lithium battery packs (plug in), which design would be better or more efficient? I am not an engineer, but my guess is the e-flex system would be better / more efficient because it would not be switching back and forth between two drive trains. It seems to make common sense to me …please prove me wrong. For those whose commute is less than 40 miles a day, neither car would use gas.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Toyota’s parallel hybrid system is complex and a superior hybrid technology to any other hybrid on the road. No question. Other than having an affordable, powerful enough, and light weight enough battery system a RxEV is a simple technology. The problem for Toyota is that they’ve developed this wonderful and complex technology only see that it will soon be moot technology. Toyota will have a hard time giving up their very successful pardigm and they will pay a price for that. The complexity will no longer be needed when battery power derived from the grid is enough for the vast majority of drivers’ daily usage. No gas used most days is many times better than an algorithmic system that uses half to three quarters of a gallon for the typical driver’s typical day (even if it does better milage when driving cross country). As Jimmy points out the advantages of decreased gas use go beyond individuals’ wallets. Energy independence. Decreased greenhouse gas emissions. When simple does the job better, then simple is no longer just simple: it is elegant.
Of course the bottom line will be the bottom line. The Volt will have to have a total cost of ownership less than a Prius, a Camry hybrid, or a Civic hybrid or any of their non hybrid equivilents. It will have to have performance at least as good as any of them. Can GM pull that off? I think so but that is less an issue of technolgy than of efficient manufacture at this point. And governmental incentives with enduring and substantial tax credits for RxEVs and BEVs wouldn’t hurt!
November 4th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Jimmy, I believe that the parallel system would get better milage for commutes over 40 miles but at substantial increased cost and complexity. Putting mechanical energy directly into mechanical energy loses less than concerting it into electrical and back into machanical. The trade-offs are the extra weight of an ICE powerful enough to actually power the car instead of merely powerful enough to keep the battery charged, and the complexity of the system with a whole addition transmission system that is needed for only a small minority of the time.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Don,
Im not an engineer, but maybe an optimised engine running at constant revs is still more efficient than a parallel configuration, even considering the conversion losses?
November 4th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Calculating the relative efficiency between the Volt and Prius when running on gas is tricky and requires more information than we have.
On one hand, for the Volt, there’s a guaranteed loss converting the generator’s mechanical energy to electricity and then back to mechanical. I’m not sure how much this is–maybe 20%? On the other hand, the generator engine is smaller and the motor gives you more acceleration per horsepower. On the Prius’s side, the engine can drive the wheels directly and can run in its power band because of the CVT, although there are losses going through the CVT. And the engine is bigger. Does that add up to more or less than 20%? Who knows.
(BTW, the Prius does not “switch” between motor & engine, it can use power from both simultaneously because of Toyota’s innovative, sophisticated torque-combining planetary gearset.)
In any case, I’m just tired of people saying that the Volt is more technically advanced than the Prius. GM is simply pursuing a different idea (that’s better in my opinion) but that doesn’t make them all brilliant engineers and everybody at Toyota morons.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
The series-parallel design doesn’t work like either the parallel or series type hybrid. So comparisons are non-constructive. Why keep feeding the hype?
Agumenting a Prius boosts MPG.
It’s that simple.
You’ll pay a few thousand more for the upgrade option to get higher efficiency.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
A pure electric drive car is THE most efficient thing you can have. That’s what the Volt is. With no transmission and no ICE connected to the drivetrain, there is less energy loss through heat or friction. Friction is the biggest factor in car efficiency, and there is MUCH less of that in an electric drive system. If I was an engineer at Honda or Toyota, that’s the case I would be making. Nuff said, I’m watchin football.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
The Toyota HSD system is certainly the most sophisticated hybrid system on the road right now… but only for a few more months.
The two-mode hybrid transmission co-developed by GM, DCX, and BMW is more advanced, and will be available on a few GM SUVs soon.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
On the “beyond battery” front, I’d think we’ll be looking at ultra-capacitors (possibly from the likes of EEStor). Here’s a recent article from the IEEE with the latest:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov07/5636
Another thing I love about the simplicity of the Volt series design is that it becomes much more modular. If there’s a better battery or ultra-capacitor, swap it in. A better generator than the ICE, or a better electric motor, do the same.
“A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”
—Antoine De Saint-Exupery
November 4th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
To MC:
Great article and great comment. You reaffirmed my statement on #15. The Volt can be easily upgraded with a capacitor pack instead of a battery pack, when that day does come around.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
I agree….and if you’re Toyota with BILLIONS invested in clunky (yes…CLUNKY…sorry if you own a Prius…) parallel technology, what the hell are you going to say???
M.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:43 pm
All this talk of upgrading batteries is a little funny to me. It won’t be that simple to simply “swap out” battery x for battery y or ultracapitor z. All these systems require a lot of back end controllers and will have built in interfaces with the display in the car. Its not like upgrading the RAM on your computer.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
What we’re talking about,Andy, is first generation to second generation, etc.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Here is why series electric drive (e-flex) can be more efficient than parallel drive.
e-flex:
The ICE is able to run at or near its optimal RPM and load for longer. The battery can be used to even out the load. A 3 phase electrical motor with a smart inverter has a very wide efficiency.
With a parallel drive the electric motor can help the ICE to even out the load. But I suspect that the ICE still has to work over a wide range, thus leaves its efficiency sweet spot for longer and more often.
With a mechanical drive there is loss in the gear box. There is either no gear box with EV or a much more simple gear box (e.g. two speed).
So we are trading losses in generator, and inverter, for losses in gear box and ICE operating outside of its sweet spot. Modern inverters are around 96% efficient, depending on the application you can probably get even better, I don’t know about efficiency of generators or gear boxes.
It could be that parallel is more efficient, but also more complex to implement. I don’t care much. Just give me 25 to 40 miles of pure EV range and an extender. The first one there gets my money.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
The Volt innovative? Before the ICE 100 years ago the early vehicles on the road were battery electric vehicles. Even after the ICE was introduced and started taking off (sure the oil companies had something to do with that), EV’s were still popular with the ladies as they didn’t require hand cranking to start (this is before the electric starter) and weren’t dirty like the ICE’s at the time (or today).
Even adding a range extender to an EV is not innovative… it’s been done (some have even designed their range extender to be trailerable so the extra weight only needs to be lugged around when taking a longer trip).
Where the Volt is innovative and will hopefully be it’s claim to fame is being the 1st mass produced EV in American history with GM quoted as saying the 1st year they plan to make 60,000 of them!
As for the series Volt vs. parallel Prius… I believe I’ve read that even w/out plugging in the Volt that it would get around 55mpg, and if correct, would put it right up there with the Prius. But unlike the Prius, the Volt can be plugged in to get 40+ gas free miles.
And as has been mentioned above, an EV has 70%+ fewer moving parts, making it a lot less complicated, fewer things to maintain or brake. For some the biggest problem with the Volt is going to be to make sure to add fuel stabilizer in with the gasoline so it doesn’t go stale from lack of use.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
battery upgrades:
maybe upgrading battery is like upgrading the RAM in your computer.
Do you want SIMMS, DIMMS, RIMS, ECC, 80ns, 70ns, 60ns, EDO, PC100, PC130, PC266, PC3200, DRR, DDR2, CL1.5, CL2, CL3 ??
Because you can be damn sure the if you don’t put the exact right memory into you PC it won’t work even if it does fit.
Oh, and warranty invalidated if you don’t use computer manufactures’ own brand of memory.
That’s what a battery upgrade might be like, it might be possible, but if so confusing as ****, and will invalidate any warranty. For the consumer there would be a compatibility list if replacement batteries took off.
There is potential for electronics on board a replacement battery pack to make it look enough like the original battery to the car. This would ease the upgrade path.
However, unless the battery is dead, who is going to replace a $7000 battery just because there is a new better one available? Not me unless there is somewhere to trade in the old battery. Especially if the old one is still under warranty.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:18 am
First, I don’t believe Toyota invented hybrids. As I understand it, the technology behind hybrids came out of the U.S. during the Clinton era. GM and Ford were supposed to build hybrids quickly, but then backed out, leaving Toyota and Honda with the first production hybrids. Toyota then went on to perfect the hybrid synergy drive.
Second, I believe the E-Flex or other EVRX vehicles will be more efficient running on gas than a parallel hybrid. In an EVRX, the ICE is much smaller, and there is no transmission. I’ve heard the electric motor and generator are both 93% efficient, so losses here are only around 14%. Compare that to a bigger ICE, losses from a complex CVT transmission with power sharing planary gears, and the added weight of the larger ICE and complex transmission, and I think the EVRX will win. Also, my understanding is that a larger electric motor will be more efficient. This is the exact opposite of an ICE. So this will help the EVRX as well. Then there is the turbocharger, which gives the Volt in particular another efficiency boost.
Third, I belive that Toyota and Honda are more in the mode of perfecting a given design, rather than doing a brand new design. Honda is focused on engine technology, so they would like some ultra-efficient diessel. Toyota is focused on power sharing CVT transmissions, so they want a parallel hybrid. In the end, I believe the Americans may be the best at throwing out the old design and starting from scratch. This is called innovation.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:40 am
It’s hard to take comments seriously when the differences between “parallel”, and “series-parallel” hybrids are not recognized.
To build credibility here, I suggest a discussion about how ASSIST and FULL hybrids differ. You’ll be quite surprised to learn how little those designs have in common… and how it changes the perception of comments above.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:21 am
Yeah I think when GM says the platform is flexible because they’ll be able to change around the battery and “range extender”, they don’t mean YOU’LL be able to change them around. It’s not like Legos where you can swap a big box with a different big box. It’s more like converting an automatic transmission car to manual transmission: you’re going to need some serious know-how, many miscellaneous parts, and several days of labor.
November 5th, 2007 at 7:45 am
“To build credibility here, I suggest a discussion about how ASSIST and FULL hybrids differ.”
Ok, maybe you could start by telling us. I don’t think that many people care what the technology is. We just want a car that gets 40 miles electric and then 50 mpg at a price under 30,000.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:33 am
#37 (Dave)… the ICE in the Volt is still an ICE, even though it will likely be more efficient. But that’s relative. A typical car’s ICE is only 25% efficient at converting the potential energy in the gasoline.
Note also that energy is also lost in the charging/discharging of the battery.
Overall though a BEV charged from the grid is still much more energy efficient than a ICEV.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Is a market developing for conversion of existing cars to 100% EV such as those being advertised by LiOn EV? The LiOn EV conversions are said to provide up to 400+ mile range depending upon the configuration of their new lithium battery packs, have rapid recharge capability, with routine service by existing dealerships.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Just to point something out real quick: GM actually has experience with all kinds of listed vehicle types: ICEs (gas and diesel) obviously, BEV (the EV1), mild/assist/parallel hybrids (BAS in the Aura, Malibu, VUE, etc.), full/parallel-series hybrids (2-mode hybrid, and plug-in 2-mode hybrid in the upcoming Yukon, Tahoe, etc., as well as the VUE plug-in in 2009), and then there is the range-extending electric car (the Volt, to come out in 2010). So if you want to, you could put the discussion of PHEVs, HEVs, BEVs, ICEs, and RxEVs in the context of GMs current, future, and historical product lines. And for the comparison of RxEVs and PHEVs, the actual trade-offs will probably be cost: PHEVs need smaller batteries but more complexity to provide triple-digit MPGs, and RxEVs need larger batteries with less complexity to achieve the same goal. More batteries means more cost and more weight, less batteries means less weight, less cost, and less realized MPGs. The real issue in the move towards electrified vehicles, though, is petroleum independence and better driving. Cost, complexity, weight, and aesthetics are factors that will affect the development of the new market, but are not the driver to it.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
925 pounds? I love it. Weight is the enemy.
Having said that, Toyota is not exactly discovering a new concept by deciding that range will be extended by light weight. Every aircraft and racing car designer worth his or her salt has known that to 100 years. Or maybe forever.
Still, somebody said here earlier that simple is elegant. If I could buy a viable 925 pound car, I would buy it and take my chances with the Escalades. They are going to go the way of the Dodo bird soon enough anyway.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
This is typical of the Japanese, they wait for other to do the expensive research and then come in and refine and improve it and blow the original developers out of the water. Just look at the OLED, Kodak invented it but now Sony is making money on there new ultra thin TV’s.
November 21st, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Check out Tesla Motors
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Hmm, let’s see, do you want something that is complex or do you want a GM Volt that uses no gas for 80% of the driving public, gets 150 MPG for the rest and has a million mile electric motor with little or no maintenance and looks like a sporty car rather than a box. That’s a tough one.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:52 pm
MRWSM, I think you may be confused… after it stops driving off the battery and the generator (range extender) kicks in, it doesn’t get 150mpg… I think it’s something like 50mpg or maybe a little more.
The 150mpg number you may have heard is an “average” of using no gas at all for the 1st 40 miles and another X number of miles of running off the generator. The bigger “X” is, the lower the average mpg will be.
It’s marketing message you’ll hear from any plug-in (including those after market conversions of the Prius). However if it’s never plugged in, the MPG will be only whatever you can get off the “range extender”.
May 25th, 2008 at 12:14 am
The 150 MPG is I think for either 60 or 80 miles of driving which should cover the remaining 19% of the driving public, leaving 1% for longer commutes that will, like you said get 50 MPG. I was not specific enough, but just trying to compare the 2 cars. The first 40 miles if fully charged will not use gas. Unless, you do not plug in. If you don’t plan on plugging in, then you might as well buy a regular car. I was just trying to make a point. Why would you want a more complex vehicle when you can have a better vehicle.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:09 am
There’s no doubt that EV’s are the way of the future. All this hybrid crap is unreal to me. I don’t understand why none of the big three are building EV’s, when in the 1800’s there were EV’s with ranges of 40 miles or more. We have the battery technology in LiFePo4, we have the infrastructure to recharge batteries in place, we have the desire of the people to drive for nearly free and say &*^% you to the oil companies… I’m guessing that the big three must be getting payoffs from big oil. I can see no other reason to wait to produce the volt or any other concept EV. For Christ’s sake, GM was producing an EV in the early 90’s that had a 180 mile range! But they killed it, could it have been a payoff from the oil co’s???
I own an electric Ford Ranger that I bought from LionEV.com. the only problem with it is that there were no balancers manufactured for the LiFePo4 batteries at the time of the sale/conversion. Now there are balancers being produced, and LionEV is replacing my 100AH batteries with 200AH batteries, so once they are installed, with the balancers from hotjuiceelectric.com, I should have at least a 200 mile range with this vehicle. I’m just sick that the major automakers have not achieved the same.
Corruption MUST be the cause. How are we gonna stop that?