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Massive Breaking News: GM Receives First Chevy Volt Lithium-ion Battery Packs From LG Chem and Expects to Make up to 100,000 Cars in First Year

October 31st, 2007 | Posted in: Battery, Brand, Production, Timeline

Bob Lutz was interviewed by the Detroit Press and the article was published today. In it he gave us some very important new details.

He told them that GM received the first experimental battery packs from LG Chem/CPI Tuesday, October 30th (cooling system not included). He also said that A123 packs would arrive in Decemeber.

He also tells us that indeed late model Malibus will serve as the mules and be up and running in the first quarter of 2008.

Furthermore, he goes on to say the production model Volt will have a “more traditional” front end, definitely be called the Chevrolet Volt, and that he hopes for 60,000 to 100,000 vehicles to be produced in the first model year.

My hearts pumping, how about you?!

Source (Detroit Free Press)

Thanks to Kent Beuchert who picked this up first.

Digg this post here: (DIGG)

Posted by: Lyle

90 Responses to “Massive Breaking News: GM Receives First Chevy Volt Lithium-ion Battery Packs From LG Chem and Expects to Make up to 100,000 Cars in First Year”

Rashiid Amul Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 8:42 am

Reposted in part:

What a shame that the Volt is not going to look like the concept. I just hope that GM is not going back to their old ways of building cars that no one wants to buy. That would really be a stupid move.

I would love to see a picture of the new Volt.

Up to 100,000 of these will be built. But is that based on the popularity of the concept? If they make the car look lame, is anyone going to buy it anyway? With the exception of the see through roof, I am against changing the body design.

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Tim Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 8:52 am

CFR President: $200/barrel Oil If War With Iran http://www.roguegovernment.com/news.php?id=4723

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MC Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:00 am

No doubt some may be turned off if production is too different than concept, but possibly others would be interested… We’ve always known they’ll have to make some adjustments for various reasons.

But I hope they find a way to make it look good, and by that I mean looking strong and spirited. I hate when manufacturers save their nice looks for the $40k+ range and make the cheaper cars look, well, cheap. This Volt concept gave me hope they could make a cool car that I “had to have” for the trifecta of style, sense (cost to run), and social conscience (new energy tech).

I’m still hopeful… Good luck Bob(s)!

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voltman Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:25 am

Awesome news. I have posted many times about the front end of the car. All other views look great but the front end looks wierd. Not everyone wants to drive a camero.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:36 am

“Not everyone wants to drive a camero.”

True, and not everyone wants to drive an old persons car. I am 43 and still want to drive a hot car. People younger than me would most likely want to as well. I believe that the younger people will be the ones to really push this technology. I have a 10 and 8 year old. We talk constantly about what is happening with the planet, world problems, cost of living, etc.

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voltman Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:57 am

I like hot cars too just not the muscle car look. They would have to screw it pretty bad for me not to buy one though.

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Matt986 Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 10:10 am

They made mixed statements about the styling… they say it will be as close to the concept as possible, but now say it will have a more ‘traditional’ front end.

Either way, I think the Volt should look unique – not like any other GM vehicle.

Oh, and it’s CamAro, not CamEro.

For a hot car, I’ll just keep my Boxster around for fun driving!

I’m glad to hear Lutz is increasingly optimistic about the Volt. He always was, but it’s good that he’s more and more positive about it getting out in 2010. Do it will, Bob, and we will buy ‘em!

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Dave B Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 10:18 am

Things are certainly moving forward. It would be nice for GM to build a car that is unique like the concepts…Everyone knows what’s under the hood of the ugly Prius.

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kent beuchert Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 10:20 am

The only change ever mentioned was the need to move the front wheels rearward so that front end collisions won’t destroy the suspension and cause masssive economic damage. Lutz has mentioned that on at least 3 occasions. Everybody quit assuming the car for sale will look drastically different than the concept. There’s no plausible reason for believing anything like that. Over the past 5 years, GM’s concept cars that have gone to market have shown relatively few (sometimes zero) changes from the original concept. The car’s front wheel forward stance was never a factor in my positive opinion of the vehicle – I was most impressed by the rear and top treatment that provides such an open look.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 10:31 am

Well there you have it everyone. The honorable Kent Beuchert has spoken and we can now assume the Volt will look almost the same as the concept. Whew. I’m glad I don’t have to worry about that anymore. Although I do wish Kent had told us and showed us a picture of the final version, since he knows so much about it already.

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Steven B Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 10:50 am

I kind of hope that the Volt does look weird in some way. Nice weird, but weird nonetheless. Although there are plenty of people who freely call the Prius ugly, the truth is that is actually just weird, not ugly. It’s got that whole pod thing going on, and flat pug/persian kitty face that makes it look like it’s not really a car. But that makes it stand out and allows it to remain the number 1 best-selling hybrid in the world. The sporty green commuter aspect of the Volt, although weird in actuality, I think would be a very good thing. It will be part of what makes the Volt a Prius-slayer.

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noel park Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:06 am

Again, form follows function. The Prius has the lowest Cd of any production car. Low Cd equals better mileage.

GM showed that it is good at high performance aero with the EV1. I believe that it had an extremely low Cd – 0.19? They could just dust off the basic shape of the EV1,scale it up a bit if necessary, and they couldn’t go too far wrong.

I have felt that the front of the Volt, as shown so far, was too blunt to get the really killer CD number. Maybe they have taken this into consideration. Maybe this is actually a plus.

That said, I agree with voltman, #6. they would have to screw it up pretty bad for me not to buy one too!

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noel park Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:07 am

By the way, this is extremely good and encouraging news. Thank you for it.

What a resource this blog is. I don’t know how you do it.

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GXT Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:08 am

I for one can’t wait to see that standard GM steering wheel and the malibu stack in the production volt

Good to see GM on record about the 60-100K count (as I recall, it was only a rumour previously).

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Tom M Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:12 am

Mr. Rashiid:
I’m with you and at 71 I still get excited about this new concept. I hope they get this VOLT out before they take my drivers lic. away.

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GXT Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:14 am

Whoops…. I guess it isn’t official:

Lutz said the company has not determined how many Volts it will make in the first year, but said he believes “it’s a very safe bet that it will be produced in the tens of thousands” in its first generation.

“This is not sanctioned, not an official GM number, but in the first full year of production I would like to see between 60,000 and 100,000 and then go up from there,” Lutz said.

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GXT Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:16 am

Heh… here is my favourite quote from Lutz on the volt:

“We’re charging full-speed ahead before we know exactly what the investment is going to be, before we know whether we can make any money off it or not, before we know how many we’re going to sell,” Lutz said. “This is unusual. This is different from anything I’ve ever seen in my 40 years in the automobile industry.”

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AES Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:34 am

Front end changes were probably made for the sake of aero. :/

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Drake Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 12:02 pm

First of all, no production vehicle ever looks exactly like its concept counterpart. Secondly, let me go on the record by saying that I don’t give a damn what the production Volt looks like. As long as it is a PHEV and stays true to its electric range of 40 miles, then I will be happy.

Concerning GM losing money on the Volt, I am sure they will in the first generation or two. This is how things go with new technology. Toyota lost money on the Prius in the early days, but the Prius is now profitable.

Toyota has stated that the powertrain in the next generation Prius will cost half that of the previous generation. As more of most finished goods are made, the less expensive producing them becomes. Toyota knew they were going to lose money on the Prius to begin with, and they were fine with that. Here’s why:

Toyota’s investment has resulted in…

1) Toyota being named the technology leader in HEV technology.

2) Toyota is considered THE “green” car company due to it’s investment in HEV tech.

3) Toyota has created the world-renowned Prius brand.

4) After years of development, Toyota is now making a profit from its HEVs.

5) Toyota is licensing its HEV tech to other automakers.

I would dare to say that having an unprofitable Prius for a generation or two was well worth it for Toyota.

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szyszek Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 12:13 pm

In regards to front end, the way I understand what Bob said is that the front end had to be changed due to packaging issues. Many different things dictate how the car will look like – packaging, aerodynamics, crash protection etc. I still hope they will make a cool car. I want a new Camaro cool, not Aztek cool. On the other hand if the car works as advertised, I will buy it no matter how it looks like.

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Doug Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:18 pm

I want a volt no matter what it looks like as long as it gets a minimum of 25 on electric alone.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:30 pm

Most of us here want the Volt no matter what it will looks like. But can we here be considered the same as the millions of other people who don’t follow this too closely? It is imperative that “the masses” like this car, not just us. The car must be a sharp looking car that is going to draw attention to itself and “the masses” are going to want to buy it. That is the key. Make the car so everyone wants to buy it. Don’t “dumb” it down. We really need this car to be as close to perfect as possible when it hits the market. That includes quality and appearance. In the end, GM should be able to (figuratively, of course) climb a mountain, thump its chest, and scream at the top of its lungs..”We saved the planet! WE ARE NUMBER ONE !!!”

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Tom Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:40 pm

Sorry, but the proportions are still all out of whack to me.

Actually, I just thought of something. So the side windows seem to extend down “into” the doors, presumably to improve visibility and give a feeling of “openness,” but that’s apparently not equally important for seeing out the FRONT? Maybe that’s why this car looks so ugly and wrong to me.

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szyszek Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:41 pm

Based on the number of Volts GM wants to sell (60,000 to 100,000 the first year) and the fact that the Volt will be based on a $13k Cobalt, I am gonna go on a limb here and say that the Volt will sell for less than $25k, probably comparable to the price of a Prius. This is the only way to reach the masses. $28-$30k is a price of an entry luxury car and Volt will not be a luxury car for sure. Under $25k is the sweet spot for customers. This is why Bob said they may have to lose money on the Volt at first, until the battery pack comes down in price. Any comments anyone?

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Oil Jihadi Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:43 pm

I was commanded by Allah to visit this website today, to learn that the beginning of the end of oil is near.

Allah will grant us victory in our jihad against oil.

http://www.oiljihad.org

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Drake Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:51 pm

Rashiid – I agree. While I don’t care what the Volt ultimately looks like, it is important that it be attractive to the average consumer. For the Volt to be a success, it must be a visually attractive vehicle. Fortunately, that’s something that the American automakers are good at- making sexy-looking cars. I would imagine that the design of the body of the car will be the easiest part for GM.

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Bill Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:52 pm

I REALLY don’t care what it looks like and as long as it gets 40 miles per charge, I’ll buy it. That said, I agree with Rashiid, that it needs to be attractive enough to draw the masses. GM has got to make a profit on it (hopefully sooner rather then later) for it goes away.

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Talks Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:07 pm

LG Chem/CPI had the capability to package
the battery with control electronics and sensors prior to Signing the contract. So they have delivered the pack on time. Where as A123
had to go thru Continental which is not part of A123 which would have lead to continental prepared electronics, sensors and software interface problems with A123 batteries or it could be something else which caused delay till December.

I believe LG Chem/CPI has cost advantage as battery and package are created by the same company/subsidiary which is not the case with A123. Both A123 and Continental will try to make profit which could inflate the cost of final battery pack.

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szyszek Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:08 pm

I will buy one anyway, but I do care how it looks like. I like good looking cars. I enjoy a nice design. I would hate to have to say to friends and family: “yeah, Dad, I know the car looks like crap and that Aztek was a beauty compared to this one, BUT I bought it for the gas mileage, not the looks”.

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Steven B Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:11 pm

I just hope that they make enough of them so I don’t have to stay on a waiting list for months and months.

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Neutron Flux Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:26 pm

I am not sure this qualifies as “massive” breaking news. Reminds me of the boy who cried wolf. Delivering a battery pack without its required cooling system is less than massive when one considers it cannot be adequately tested without said cooling system for fear of damage etc. Any testing to this delivered product will be extremely limited in scope. Sounds like the same as when a software co. releases its product to meet a deadline or to be first out the door with out a finished product. I’ll continue to hold my breath until a fully functional pack is delivered that can be tested to determine if required specs have been met; thank you!

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Jim G Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:31 pm

I do care about looks (and performance). If I didn’t, I would have already bought a Prius. For those of you who claim that looks don’t matter, why haven’t you bought a Prius? Seriously.

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Bill Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:43 pm

Well, for me, I’m interested in being able to drive electrically for the major portion of my driving (i.e. to/from work), so I need the 40 miles. The idea of being able to go longer distances with the use of some gas is also very appealing. If Prius had that offer available, I’d already be there.

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szyszek Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:47 pm

I actually like the look of a Prius and I would be there too if Prius was a plug-in hybrid like Volt with 40 mile electric only range. I like value and Prius makes no economic sense if you place it against Toyota Corolla with a manual tranny.

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noel park Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:53 pm

I don’t think that the average Prius is anything like a $20,000 car. Once in a while you see one advertised here in SoCal for something like $19,998, but it’s always “One only at this price.”

By the time they add on Package 2, or Package 3, or the Touring Package, the price goes up substantially.

Also, while Toyota may or may not have made money in the beginning, the dealers certainly did. They marked up the sticker price with no mercy when supply was short and first adopters were willing to pay a premium. This is classic marketing strategy for any kind of gee-whiz product. Now that they have increased production, and gone through their first adopters, they are having to be a bit more competetive, but $20,000? I don’t think so.

There has to be a similar opportunity here for GM. I just hope that the corporation can figure out a pricing strategy that lets them keep at least most of any early adopter price premium. If there’s anything I hate, it’s those dealer markup stickers on the windshield. Start with a higher base price and drop it after a year when production ramps up? Can anyone say I-phone?

While I will buy one no matter what it looks like, I have to agree with Rashiid, et al, that the sexier it looks the more they will sell. Also, the sexier it looks, the higher price it will command.

Again though, look at the Prius. It gets slammed here, and elsewhere, every day for being ugly, or at least unattractive. But they do sell. Part of the reason they outsell the Civic is that they look different, of course. But I also believe that part of it is that they clearly have better technology. I think that top mileage bragging rights are just as important to hybrid buyers as the fashion statement of the looks. Another opportunity for GM.

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AES Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:59 pm

[quote comment="12823"]I am not sure this qualifies as “massive” breaking news. Reminds me of the boy who cried wolf. Delivering a battery pack without its required cooling system is less than massive when one considers it cannot be adequately tested without said cooling system for fear of damage etc. [/quote]

The cooling system may be the same used to cool the ICE – just a basic glycol/water solution. In other words, the Volt’s radiator may have two jobs.

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ug Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:04 pm

“What a shame that the Volt is not going to look like the concept.”

The concept has issues. The chop-top look limits front visibility. They get around this on the sides with those dumb plastic sections at the bottom. What that does is create an enclosed air channel which serves no practical purpose other than to get steamed up and limit visibility anyway.

Plus the wheels that people are so irrationally jazzed about are just too big and heavy for an EV. (There is a reason the Prius has 14″ wheels.)

It’s all form and no function. It has to come back down to reality.

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Scott Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:14 pm

Yes, concepts do have issues, as always. I just want a nice looking car that doesn’t look like a butt ugly Prius. You people that think the Prius looks nice or cool need your head examined, really! I dont want a car that people will look at with a scowl on their face and say “Oh, look. There’s another dork that thinks he’s saving the planet and wants EVERYONE to know it.” No, thank you.

I can’t wait to see the mules on the road to see if the numbers they crunched come out on target. Later, guys.

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mykallb Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:19 pm

I never really expected that the prod. car would look exactly like the concept. Especially not for an electric where CD is paramount, so I’m not surprised.

I think they’ll be respectful of aesthetics and make the changes they need, but I still believe it’ll look good, especially because the Prius doesn’t.

I’d certainly be willing to give up that front end if it meant that the car will definitely get 40miles electric on the highway as Nick Zielinksi said it would.

M.

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omegaman66 Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:25 pm

Hey Lyle something is wrong with your website. You wrote an article on how GM recieved the first batteries which i huge huge news and also more HUGE news that the 60K has been changed to 60-100K cars!!! But obviously something screwed up because some how everyone here is talking about the volt possibly looking different than it did before!!! Fix it please so I can read what everyone else is obviously reading. Amazing!!!

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Drake Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:25 pm

The 2009 Prius is supposed to get a facelift of sorts. Here’s a link: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4212545.html

I think it looks better than the current Prius, though I have nothing against the current design- it has charm. I still bet that Detroit can come up with a better-looking vehicle, even while keeping the MPG up.

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Jimmy Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:58 pm

We should all support GM on their Volt efforts. How can we do this? If we are currently in need of a new car, we can buy a GM vehicle. We can always trade it in on a Volt in 2010. The better they do …the more money they will have to spend on the Volt and future E-Flex cars.

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Brian M Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:59 pm

I wonder if Lutz was kind of wishing out loud, or if the 60-100k number is real. It seems like it would be a huge risk to produce that many in the first year.

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Jimmy Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 6:03 pm

I wonder why A123 is not delivering their battery packs until December? I thought they might have a slight advantage over LG based upon the posts over the last couple of months.

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Mark Bartosik Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 6:09 pm

Lyle, how many do we have on the wait list now, and at what rate is it currently growing?

Maybe we’ll have 100,000 by 2010 ?

I am bothered about two things:
1) Not being able to buy Volt until 2011.
2) Not being able to buy Volt because everyone else wants one.

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bruce g Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 6:12 pm

Are GM going to use both companies batteries or are they still evaluating?
Will they have the same footprint and be interchangeable?

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Lyle Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 6:20 pm

Wait list here is roughly 4000.

It’s true, we knew from very early on on that the production car will look different than the concept, as they always do, but Lutz has said it will appear unmistakably as the Volt.
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/03/09/new-volt-re-design/

The big news truly is that the holy grail battery packs have arrived in GM for the first time in history, the day we’ve been waiting for since the car was first announced. I also am glad to hear that GM still plans on calling it the Volt, that was up for debate at one time:
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/08/01/will-it-still-be-called-the-volt/

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Mark Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 6:24 pm

To me, driving 40 miles on a battery alone, and being able to charge at home is more of a priority then looks. I don’t care what is looks like, Volt owners will be laughing at owners of other cars when the price of gas reaches 4-5 dollars per gallon.

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MarioM Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 6:53 pm

[quote comment="12841"]I just want a nice looking car that doesn’t look like a butt ugly Prius. I dont want a car that people will look at with a scowl on their face and say “Oh, look. There’s another dork that thinks he’s saving the planet and wants EVERYONE to know it.” No, thank you.[/quote]
I would rather be a dork who wants to save the planet than to care about what other people think about my car.

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Luke Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 7:17 pm

@MarioM,

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the way the Prius looks. My girlfriend owns one and, having driven it when we go somewhere together, I can safely say that it’s the only gasoline-powered passenger car that I’d consider buying, based on technology and looks.

While I’m eagerly awaiting the Volt, I a diesel-head at the moment, though, and I do like my Jetta TDI a little bit better for long highway trips. The Prius is a wonderful car, too. Just because the Prius is the car-to-beat doesn’t make it a bad gasoline-powered passenger car.

Anyway, if you think the Prius is ugly, could you please tell us what you think is pretty? That will make the discussion much more interesting.

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Luke Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 7:23 pm

Oops, I was responding to Scott@38, not to MarioM. My bad!

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Johnnie Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 8:31 pm

The Volt can’t get here soon enough, but I can wait her out…gas just jumped $.12 overnight, rediculas.

No More TurmOIL!! Bring on the juice.

Johnnie

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MarioM Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 8:35 pm

You’re alright mate, I was a bit confused for a moment though For the record, I like the way the Prius looks.

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bruce g Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:20 pm

Yes,
I like the Prius too….but the parallel hybrids are only a transitional car as far as I can see..bring on the Opel Astra e-flex…

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Johnnie Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:28 pm

Agreed, the opel E-Flex is a nice looking ride…

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bruce g Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:31 pm

I get the impression tnat GM want the Chevy out first, does anyone know if the Opel is still due out 2010?

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Don Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:23 pm

Don’t get me wrong, but it shouldn’t be “news” when a company delivers on a previously announced timeline (by one day and only for the company that is not their leading contender for major production numbers).

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Jim I Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 12:04 am

There are so many variables to consider when buying a new car, and especially a new breed of vehicle like the Volt.

Range of the vehicle with batteries only.
The look of the exterior.
The look of the interior and the options available.
Quality and reliability.
Pricing.

For me, the 40 mile range will work six out of seven days per week. One day per week, I have to drive about 110 miles. So I am looking at less than 2 gallons of gas per week. That one works for me.

The exterior look has to be special. If they just dump this on a Cobalt body, in my opinion it is a big mistake. If they want to market this as the “New GM”, make it cool, sexy, and immediately recognizable.

Make the interior comfortable. And offer lots of options to make my vehicle feel like it was built for me. I happen to like lots of electronics and gadgets, but I do not expect everone else to like that.

It has to have the look and feel of quality, with a warranty that says that GM knows this is a great car and they put their reputation on it.

If they can make the base price at $25K, that is great. If I want to spend some more to get the options I would like, I have no problem with that either.

And if GM wants to get a feel for how many they should build, finalize the look, begin to show and advertize that it will be available in 2010, and let the dealers start a waiting list!!!

Or am I missing something here?

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Scott Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 1:35 am

To respond to Luke @ #50, hhhhhhhmmmmmm……. something pretty besides the Prius? How about anything else Toyota puts out, and I really mean ANYTHING. Nuff said.

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Steven B Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 3:40 am

Including the Yaris hatchback? I suppose that to someone who is a bonafide Prius-hater then it that would be better-looking. I think that it might not be a bad idea for us to admit that we may simply have different responses to different designs and that we happen to differ on this specific point. I own an ‘05 Civic Hybrid, but not because I believed it to be better looking than a Prius. Instead I wanted a Prius when I was car-shopping in May of ‘06 and couldn’t find any, and that was in San Antonio, TX! Maybe there are other people out there that are not like you Scott, and happen to think that the Prius is cool-looking, even if it is kind of weird. Or maybe all those people, and myself included, are with Toyota and just like hideous cars. Who knows? Who cares?

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ryfxor Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 3:59 am

In europe gas is 7$ a gallon and we’re still not massively using hybrids.
there’s some margin before people think of switching to more energy efficent vehicles.
concerning the design, why did the Prius got so many sales while the civic hybrid was forgotten? Because it looks different, and early adopter want to make a statement when they buy this car. When you see a Prius, you are sure it’s an environmentally friendly car.

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Jim I Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 6:28 am

[quote comment="12888"]concerning the design, why did the Prius got so many sales while the civic hybrid was forgotten? Because it looks different, and early adopter want to make a statement when they buy this car. When you see a Prius, you are sure it’s an environmentally friendly car.[/quote]

This is my point exactly. The first PEV vehicle to come out of GM has to be special.

If GM wants to build PEV’s in a soccer mom van, an SUV, a truck, or giant car based on an old caddy design, fine. But schedule those for the 2012 model year.

If they try to make the first car to make everyone happy, it will make no one happy and be a disaster. If that happens, it will set back PEV’s 10 years…………

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Don Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 9:22 am

Concerning Civic hybrid vs the Prius: more so the fact that Prius is a better hybrid with better gas milage. And I say that as a five year owner of a Civic hybrid. The Civic is a mild hybrid.

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noel park Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 10:39 am

Drake, #41:

Thanks for the link to Popular Mechanics. Scary stuff! I hope that Mr. Lutz can feel the hot breath of Toyota coming up behind him. GM has a lot of work to do to stay ahead of (catch up with?) them.

Put the plug-in hybrid out now with proven battery technology, and then upgrade when better technology is proven? What a concept. Only suggested here, and on Fastlane, about 1000 times.

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noel park Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 10:44 am

Cooling system? What’s that?

Some race car brake cooling ducts and blowers a la NASCAR short track setups? Fan(s) to blow over/through the battery packs? How big a deal is this?

Do they actually produce so much heat that some sort of sophisticated liquid cooling system is required? That would sure seem complicated, expensive, heavy and scary.

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AES Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 1:01 pm

Noel-

All modern cars are liquid-cooled to begin with. Nothing to be scared of, especially since the planned batteries have low impedence and shouldn’t release much heat relative to a laptop, much less a combustion engine.

“Put the plug-in hybrid out now with proven battery technology, and then upgrade when better technology is proven? What a concept. Only suggested here, and on Fastlane, about 1000 times.”

And for the 1000th time in reply, GM doesn’t want to use NiMH because A) it would be too heavy and B) charging and discharging NiMH is only 65% efficient, vs 98% for lithium ion. So it would cost you way more money to operate the car in both electric AND combustion mode.

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Scott Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 1:53 pm

Wow, I guess I stirred a few people up, huh? I was called a “Prius-hater”, geez. Alright, guys, let’s set some things straight. I don’t “hate” the Prius. I just like “normal” looking cars. Just think of me as the crusty old man that avoids things out of “the norm”. But, the thought of an electric vehicle IS out of the “norm” and I love it. The thought of our dollars going to the nut jobs over in places like Iran or Venezuela really sickens me. I just want a car that’s going to do well and be loved by “the masses”, not by a selected few that WANT to stand out and be noticed. I don’t want to stand out. So, pretty please, with LOTS of sugar on top, forgive me. OK? Can we be friends now, or will I get another tongue lashing?

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Scott Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 2:29 pm

To respond to AES #66,

I couldn’t agree with you more. Some people just don’t get it when it comes to NiMH. Lithium Ion is the new wave, it’s gonna break the mold.

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noel park Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 2:44 pm

AES #66 and Scott #68:

I understand all that, and I don’t take issue with what you are saying. All I am saying is that, if GM doesn’t watch out, someone will beat them to the market and steal all of their thunder, and a lot of sales.

It is one thing to create a lot of buzz with a car which may appear in 2010 or 2011, and quite another to sell high tech hybrid cars every day now.

How long do you think this buzz will continue? Will we all still be blogging away here 3 years from today? What if there are delays in lithium ion development? Many of us here, particularly me, are not going to buy a Toyota or a Honda under any circumstances. Alas, that is clearly not true of the general public.

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Scott Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 3:14 pm

Noel Park #69:

True, true. Let’s hope we are all here 3 years from now, if not sooner. Hey, I like to be the optimist. I can dream for a possible 2009, can’t I?

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Jimmy Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 4:54 pm

Scott #67:

Halleluiah brother. I also don’t care very much for the Prius. It does get better mileage than my car but not so much that I have to buy one. In addition, I don’t care for the looks. Now the Volt on the other had can eliminate my gas usage altogether and it is a stylish car to boot. Viva la Volt!!!

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Honda’s Low Volt-age Interest in Plug-In Hybrids Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 9:40 pm
q Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:54 am

Honda’s hybrid is not as good as Prius. Toyota’s design is far more aggresive then Honda’s. So it is not just because of apperance.

Europeans are not buying hybrids because the ecnomics are still against them. They actually buy smaller cheaper cars. For insatnce, $10K-$15K is a common price range. Therefore paying $30K for a Prius is not possible for many.

Moreover, they get similar efficiency with their smaller 1.3L engines, so why bother.

This whole nonsense about appearance is just childish. Of course, they’ll build several different looks on this platform in the future, so no need to get all worked up like this.

Car design is about compromises. As someone else pointed out already, they must design it to be practical and efficient. Otherwise it will be a niche market failure just like Honda Insight. Later on they could offer this snazzy look, as long as you don’t mind sacrificing some interior space, some fuel efficiency, etc. However as Toyota already demonstrated, you build a practical car that works for the majority, make it a success BEFORE building sexy performance models and other specialized types.

So you’ll get your sexy look, but may have to wait for it. Simple as that.

BTW, you do realize that if they built this current concept car AS IS then Toyota would kill them and Prius would rule the hybrid world, right? Reality check!

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Jim I Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:12 am

How do you figure that the current vision of the Volt would be killed by Toyota?

They are completely different types of vehicles.

The Volt is a plug in electric vehicle with a gas/diesel/E85 based range extender, which is what I am most impressed about.

The Toyota is a gas driven vehicle with electric assist. I am not looking for that at all.

So to me, your comments make no sense!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:25 am

#73, your comments make no sense to me either.
How can Toyota kill the Volt? The Volt looks cool and will have excellent MPG even on the highway. The Prius is unattractive and I don’t see it being better than the Volt. The series hybrid is the future (at least the near future), not the parallel hybrid.
This is my 2¢.

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Jim G Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:32 am

With 70+ posts here, mostly related to the aside of “the production model Volt will have a “more traditional” front end”, GM will take notice. Look how much discussion has been generated over such a slight change in appearance. Do we really need to say anything more than “Aztec”? When the restyling is done, the front end still has the potential of being as nice as the Cadillac XLR.

I’d also like to go on record that I like the “chopped” windshield, giving it a custom, hot-rod look. As opposed to those who see it as a “squashed” look. Of course, this might also be one of the less than fuctional aspects of the design as many have noted. The elaborate window curves seem to be another item that would not be very functional (or economical) in production. But, without them, it would definitely change the overall look of the car.

Lastly, having large diameter wheels, out at the corners, gives the car a very muscular, stable look. It’s another potential change that might do a lot of damage to the style.

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q Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 10:26 am

What is Volt offering? Nice appearance and great performance? Or cheaper transportation by replacing oil with electricity?????

For those who are looking for a sexy car there are many alternatives and Volt is not unique. There are man gas based vehicles that look great and have a far better performance.

The only unique attribute of this car is electric only power mode. In practice, most drivers will compromise and accept some fuel use so long as it is minimal. Therefore, Volt is in direct competition with hybrids such as Prius.

At the end of the day, if I am forced to use a lot of fuel because of none or limited electric range then none of these vehicles are any different from the older gas only models. Even ethanol doesn’t make much difference as it cannot be produced ecnomically in great enough quantities.

So the main question is the electric mode range. Not appearance!

My point is simple. If GM keeps this sexy appearance that ends up making the car less efficient (thus reducing electric range) and offers less interior space then the next plugin Prius will win (due to a decent electric range, more interior room, etc.)

So they cannot sacrifice too much for the sake of good looks.

As for Prius and Volt being different vehicles, using different technology, etc. Most buyers they couldn’t care less. To most buyers the only question is how much fuel do I have to keep buying to drive this?

Now I realize that most people still think fuel prices won’t keep going up forever, and it is not so bad, etc. However, there are no limits on oil price. There will come a day when 1 gallon costs as much as 10 gallons from 1990s.

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Jimmy Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:00 am

The Volt offers a lot of benefits that the Prius does not.

- better gas mileage
- lower trade deficits
= more US jobs
= lower inflation
= lower interest rates
- better looks
- volt can go 650 to ? miles on one tank of gas
- equivalent electricity cost is approx 25%
- electricity usage pollutes a lot less than gas
- electricity is from US coal, nuclear, etc.
- volt can use biofuels
- volt will be quieter
- volt will have lower maintenance costs

It will not take the public long to figure all of the benefits. My prediction is that the E-Flex system will win out.

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q Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:12 am

Drop in Hymotion Lithium addon batter pack into the next PHEV Prius and you get more than 40 miles electric only range.

I certainly do wish success to GM’s Volt. By all means, more choices and competition is good. Just pointing out that maybe Volt SHOULD look ugly like Prius. Perhaps then it will be accepted by the wider public as opposed to a niche market toy.

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Jimmy Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:25 am

The Hymotion add on pack currently costs $12,000. It does not make financial sense. I don’t understand your logic that an ulgy car would appeal to a wider public than a stylish car.

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derek Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:09 pm

[quote comment="12794"]Things are certainly moving forward. It would be nice for GM to build a car that is unique like the concepts…Everyone knows what’s under the hood of the ugly Prius.[/quote]
prius ain’t ugly. it’s a family car. not a drift or drag one.

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derek Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:20 pm

[quote comment="12881"]To respond to Luke @ #50, hhhhhhhmmmmmm……. something pretty besides the Prius? How about anything else Toyota puts out, and I really mean ANYTHING. Nuff said.[/quote]
Camry 2007

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Scott Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:21 pm

OK, OK! Can we get off this “the Prius ain’t ugly, it’s practical” crap.
Let’s get back to some intelligent discussions please. Geez.

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wow Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:16 pm

I would be allot more concerned about how testing of these battery packs go than with how closely the freaking thing looks compared to the concept. 98% of the point is getting satisfactory EV-mode performance and getting it out first.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 3rd, 2007 at 10:52 am

Wow, it also matters that people will buy it once it is out. It doesn’t matter how great it works if no one wants to buy it.

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noel park Says:
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:33 am

AES, #66:

So the fact that no cooling system is included with the first battery packs is a non-issue, right? Suits me.

Just take a couple of little fans and blow air over/through the pack to cool it?

It sounded like someone was saying that this issue could hold up progress. If not, then so much the better.

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wow Says:
November 3rd, 2007 at 2:15 pm

Rashiid, they can throw the system into any body. The drive system has to work first. It is primary.

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muscle car for sale Says:
February 19th, 2008 at 3:06 am
drue Says:
December 5th, 2008 at 1:34 am

I think I’ll wait for the sexy two seater!

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Gary Says:
January 31st, 2009 at 6:34 pm

Whew ! !
I didn’t think I’d ever finish slogging through through such . . . well, I’ll just call ‘em opinions. Now, after amost a year & a half of, the opinions here, stating, “the volt will be this ….” and, “the Volt will do that …” meanwhile, during the last 1 1/2 years, Lutz and company have nearly driven GM to bankruptcy, with their pathetic quality (though much better than is was, 10-20 years ago), lackluster vision, and underhanded managerial leadership. NOW where is the Volt?!? Hugh? Why hasn’t GM lead the high mpg charge for the last two decades? How can anyone compare a phoney – vaporware concept, to “real” hybrid high mpg cars? You’d have to be a shmuk to believe such claptrap. And what kind of shmuk shows up to Congress with a tin cup in hand, begging for money, only to arrive in a privat jet, while his bankrupting policies are running this once great company aground?. How far past Pluto, can U.S. Corporate leadership get? I use the term “U.S. corporate” liberally, as so much of GM is outsourced to Canada, China, Mexico, that it’s apalling. Now, they don’t even have the funds to make phony flag waving commercials that they used to make!
Please please PLEASE tell me the Volt is real. DON’T let the EV1 be the last car that was 100% U.S. made (INCLUDING THE FUEL) … even though GM was forced to build it. My God, GM is already planning to outsource the theoretical Volt concept car’s batteries !! Before it even becomes (if ever) a real car!!! How does THAT save U.S. jobs!? What hypocracy!! Look, I’ve actually seen / touched the final Volt product … or should I say, ‘what it’ll look like … if it ever gets made’ final product. But I’m SICK of GM’s lies, and false promises, too. Where do we go from here?

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